a/251253076.txt

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--- 251253076
Alright Gundambros, Give me one reason why building smaller, more compact and heavily armored/maneuverable tanks wouldn't have been drastically superior to giant, massive target mechs.
--- 251253180
>>251253076 (OP)
Please shut up
--- 251253208
>>251253076 (OP)
Mechs are cool.
--- 251253350
>>251253076 (OP)
Too boring.
Tanks are for faggots.
--- 251253403
>>251253076 (OP)
--- 251253499
>>251253076 (OP)
Are you really interested in why they did this?
The Mobile Suite was developed by Zeon to replace both the fighter craft and the space suited infantryman and their shuttles to create a single weapon system that could fight its way through defenses and board a colony. It replaces at least two kinds of space craft and also reduces the need for space suit infantry, for whom any penetration of their normal suit is probably instant death.
Its construction was informed by Zeon's own origin story. The National Guard in Side 3, armed with little more than handguns took over the space ports and locked out the Earth government. And there was nothing the Earth government could do about it. No warships existed and even if they had all they could do was blow holes in the colonies. There was no workable use of force below genocide. So Zeon got away with it.
But then the Earth government had the Lunar stations, where many people from Zeon worked in the mines and factories, lock out the Zeon's. In a very clever combination of espionage and commando work Zeon broke the embargo by working with fifth columnists to smuggle commandos inside shipping containers. The combination succeeded in seizing the dark side lunar mining station of Grenada. But it was a very near run thing and many Zeon soldiers could have died from just being spaced if things had gone just a little differently.
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>>251253076 (OP)
space battles
--- 251253762
>>251253499
After taking Grenada and breaking the economic embargo that probably would have forced Zeon to give up independence, the arms race began. But open war was delayed largely by the inability of either side to figure out how to board a space colony, or a asteroid or lunar base without either prohibitive losses among the attackers or killing the entire civilian population of the target. Space ships could only blow holes in the colony, they could not enter and take possession of it. Mobile Suits, can fly through space, fighting their way through defending space ships, then land ON the colony and walk inside it and possess it. And since they also have hands they open air locks or if they do have to go through the colony wall, they can do the emergency engineering work to keep everyone in the target area from being spaced.
--- 251253766
>>251253076 (OP)
They are. Square cube law and modern ranged technology make giant robots ineffective. The only reason they're effective in-series is the Minovsky particles, which disrupt electronic signals that aren't hardwired.
--- 251253839
>>251253762
MS's are the size they are because of the size of the reactor needed to give them air-independent propulsion, and the amount of reaction mass needed to propel them, together with a pressurized cockpit for the pilot.
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>>251253403
Heh, nice.
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>>251253766
Wrong. Sure without Minovski particles warships with radar directed beam guns would have a much easier time defending themself from a MS attack- but you still have to board the colonies after you have driven back the defending fleet. The only thing worth fighting for in space is taking the colonies as functional, operating units with their workers, otherwise you just build your own new colony.
--- 251254051
>>251253076 (OP)
Legs.
--- 251254103
>>251253839
Mobile Suits vs Tanks were never supposed to happen. Space colonies did not have main battle tanks, some armored cars, yes, but not tanks. Tanks don't work where you have another land mass only 4 nautical miles over your head that can fire directly onto your deck.
--- 251254211
>>251253076 (OP)
Zaku were not built for the same role as tanks and would never see combat against each other outside of shitty fanfics like Origin or Unicorn. Pointless matchup, it's like asking if a tank could sink a missile cruiser.
--- 251254240
>>251254051
Can climb a 100 percent grade. Tracked AFVs cant. Most wheeled AFVs cant. You can get a little ATV up one but not at great speed and you probably will have to get out often to help it over boulders and stumps. Legged machines can handle that, just liked legged animals and humans can. And since territory on the Moon and Mars were among the things Zeon was worried about taking and they have lots of craters and such with steep sides, they leaned toward some kind of legged transport.
--- 251254327
What Mecha anime are must-watch? I tried watching Zeta Gundam and I got kind of tired of how god awful boring the space combat looks, with these gigantic mechs just flying around with no weight or impact
--- 251254373
>>251254211
Well the OYW did happen and MS's were forced to fight on Earth. Which they just barely could at that stage of development. Changing them from rockets to thermonuclear jet propulsion, going back to air breathing, and allowing MS to approximate a hovercraft allowed them to top MBTs for a moment. But building tanks and helicopters with fusion reactors would have swung the scales back in favor of tanks in time.
--- 251254424
>>251253403
Only a T-72 can do this though.
--- 251254526
>>251253076 (OP)
>>251254373
Watch the second episode of MS IGLOO for your much requested Tank vs Mech battle porn.
Sneak preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAHSCxuOzvk [Embed]
--- 251254529
>>251254327
In terms of combat Char's Counterattack pleased me how most of time thrusters would light up to the movement of the robots. But it's a far off sequel of Zeta so at least read a summary of it.
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>>251254327
>What Mecha anime are must-watch?
Patlabor
--- 251254633
Oh. And originally a Mobile Suit was only supposed to be 3m tall. Tomino had read Starship Troopers, the Forever War, and the original Lensman novels. He was vetoed by sponsors who wanted to sell robot toys. Oddly, being forced to go from a 3m to a 18m suit in retrospect worked- its easier to beleve in a thermonuclear reactor 3 meters in diameter than it is to imagine one 30cm in diameter.

Though Tekkaman, VOTOMS and Genesis Climber MOSPEDA were later to have success at getting people to believe in suits that were that small, they had to either invoke a much larger time skip or invoke alien technology. Gundam was supposed to be within 120 years of the 1970s- when fusion power was supposed to be available by 1999 and another 100 years to be able to use that to populate space.
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>>251254526
Also MS IGLOO 2's episodes 2 which is about the rivalry between a tanker and a Zaku ace, and 3 (kinda)
--- 251255141
If plot armor didn't exist in Gundam, the most effective weapon would have been the Ball or Oggo.

Any anime that actually has good reasons for humanoid mecha? 
Muv-luv is nice excluding the size and melee aspects, and Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet is cool for the high-tech human faction to have religious reasons.
--- 251255193
Legged mecha can fight a tank. They can take a fairly good weight of heavy ATGW. Find a hill that a tank cannot climb. Climb it with your mech. Prone the mech out on the reverse slope, rain missiles on everything that moves on the plain below.
--- 251255259
>>251255141
No it wouldn't. Ball and Oggo float. They cant go inside colonies, they cant land and walk on the Lunar or Martian surface. Could you try and put some sort of wheels or tracks on one? Sure. Would it be better?
--- 251255346
>>251253076 (OP)
I suppose Mechs are just simply more generalizable to any combat scenario being effectively larger people. A tank can blow through armor but it cannot climb a mountain, or maneuver in space. Obviously the actual form factor and design of mecha is just to look cool, having a moving turning head for your camera is probably the most inefficient way to do that
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>>251255141
Why is Muv Luv "nice"? 
The best terrestrial humanoid mecha is the Guges Landmate from Appleseed. The original Guges NOT the one that can fly.
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>>251254424
that's a patton though
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>>251255346
White light cameras are easy. But things like IIR, LADARs and some kinds of millimetric wave radar you have to put them in a turret- a head- or buy and fit multiples, that get to be both a size and power issue apart from money.
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>>251253839
given how much space the arms/legs/head take up, you could still make a much, much smaller tank that's just the Reactor+gun/cockpit. And if the reactor gives enough power to use the mech like a aircraft, then your tank is going to be far better at being a mini-aircraft to boot (While also being absurdly harder to hit).
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This is what peak performance looks like.
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>>251255670
If you don't have a use for hands. But hands can be quite useful.
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>>251254633
I don't think VOTOMs mechs weren't impressive enough for people to question how their power source. They were essentially equivalent to a fancy armored car, including the linear movement with their all-terrain skates. Those were probably the biggest credibility leap.
--- 251255916
>>251255259
As another post argues, I don't think MS's are really effective on planetary surfaces. 
There conventional weapons like tanks would be much better. 

As of colonies, I was under the impression that most of the time the battles are decided in space, since actually fighting inside would detrimental to the both sides. An invader would want to capture it somewhat intact since all repairs would be at their cost, and a defender would know a blockade of food/supplies would mean the inevitable defeat unless reinforcing fleets came soon enough. 

Which leaves space battles, but even there I think the size of 18m tall MS far outweigh whatever mobility advantage they have over smaller Mobile armours.
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>>251255797
Barrels > Balls
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>>251255797
I hear they are packed with rape material
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>>251255670
Really the choice is between humanoid, and various insect form mecha. Not really between legs/wheels/tracks
--- 251256127
>>251255896
There's a reason we don't build our helicopters or tanks with hands but just build the weapons into them.

The point of a warmachine is to kill the enemy, not grab/hold things. If you need that, your goal should be killing all the enemies first and then bringing in construction vehicles with articulate limbs to handle holding things (Or bringing along one with your squad of inbuilt weapon platforms).

I mean, as the show went on, all of zeon's super weapons began to gravitate towards being just giant tanks/airships instead of humanoid, except drastically oversized, negating the advantage of a non-humanoid design.
--- 251256141
>>251255670
Arms are good for melee combat. And size and weight matter less in zero-g. You're right though. The best excuse for the humanoid mecha is some kind of brain interface that lets people use their motor skills to control it directly, with superior pilots outweighing superior but counter-intuitive designs.
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>>251256082
It's hard to argue against spider tanks.
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>>251255916
You have to be able to fight inside the colony or the colony would lock you out. Exactly as the Zeon Republic did at its founding. The only other option is to exterminate the colony by blowing holes in it or using a nuke. This might work once if by doing it you could scare an entire side into surrendering. But you cannot count on it.
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>>251253076 (OP)
--- 251256306
>>251256127
We would build helicopter with hands if we could. It would save a lot of messing around with ropes and hooks.
--- 251256345
>>251253076 (OP)
>Give me one reason why building smaller, more compact and heavily armored/maneuverable tanks wouldn't have been drastically superior to giant, massive target mechs.
In reality, of course they would be. But it's not reality, it's a big robot anime, so they have big robots because they're cool.
--- 251256415
>>251256127
The reason we don't build tanks or helicopters with hands is that there are not really any good mechanical hands yet! Being able to reload/refuel yourself without leaving your armor, do simple engineering tasks with large but mechanically simple tools- simply like a bigger rifleman or engineer- would be worth its weight in gold. Robotic legs that can balance properly while walking used to be the handicap but that has largely been solved by people like Boston Dynamics and Honda in the last couple decades. Right now the hands are the limitation and with people now wanting to work on Mars and on asteroids its a issue that is going to have to be worked out soon.
--- 251256447
>>251254327
Go play a random non-OG Super Robot Wars, watch the anime of each character or mecha you end up liking.
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>>251256345
Wrong. They are big because of what the artist thinks it would take to power something like that. Only rarely do you get into Battleship Yamato giantism.
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>>251256217
The Fuchikoma/Tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell are based on ticks.
--- 251256549
>>251256345
And size is not a de-facto problem. 120ton Sauropods once walked the earth.
--- 251256554
>>251256127
If it doesn't have any hands how will you air out your laundry?
--- 251256555
>>251255396
They were somewhat plausible in that story, heavily armored destroyer-class meant tanks lacked the mobility to hit the softer rears, and missiles would be too expensive for every swarm. With the mobility and usage of cheaper weapons, TSF really could make sense as a counter to the numerical superiority of larger BETAs. Everything else from size and melee to the general plot is stupid though

Embarrassingly I haven't seen appleseed so can't compare, but it's on my watchlist now.
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>>251256415
>wanting to work on Mars and on asteroids
When the collective of humanity can barely keep a half dozen people in a Coke can supplied in near Earth orbit, it seems rather silly to meme about working on a planet when everyone will die before they reach the halfway point in transit.
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>>251256471
Did the earliest big robot anime ever address that? Questions like how they were powered never seemed to come up in any of the older ones I've seen, though admittedly that's not many.
>>251256549
I wasn't even really thinking about the size; the same practicality questions apply whether the robot's slightly larger than a human or as tall as a skyscraper. I just say "big robot" because, well... the vast majority of them are bigger than a human, which is "big" by most people's standards.
--- 251257134
In UC, especially OYW, Zeon were grinded to a halt when they invaded earth because land vehicles are still relevant apparently. 
And it's pretty much addressed already in that the MSes were humanoid shaped in the first place to take advantage of having limbs with thrusters on them for space maneuvers with the AMBAC system (on UC at least), if you've ever played KSP then you'd know how useful it is having a controlable limb with thrusters in space is.
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>>251257134
Lots of creatures have limbs other than humans though. AMBAC is a good point. But- remember the Star Fury fighters in Babylon 5? They had some seriously good maneuvering with no moving parts, though you had to burn fuel for every move.
--- 251257452
And then we have this puppy.
https://hushkit.net/2014/07/28/the-us-armys-ring-wing-transformer-the-strange-story-of-the-convair-model-49/
--- 251257454
If your enemy gains air superiority your mecha are fucked.
--- 251257458
MS IGLOO 2 was pretty bullshit, but the Type 61 will always be cool.
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>>251257454
There's no such thing as air superiority when mecha can shoot things out of the air just fine and long-range weapons get fucked by Minovsky particles.
--- 251257879
The Advance of Zeta model series has some of the most sensible (allowing for in-universe technology like hydrogen fusion reactors). But they did some choosing with the setting though, it takes place largely on Mars and its surrounding space so even when they are on 'land' there is no atmosphere, vegetation, or large bodies of water hamper the MS and the no atmosphere means EVERYONE has to be within a vehicle as much as possible, just because evan a accidental poke to a normal suit could be so catastrophic. Much less when projectiles are being flung around.
The humanoid Gundam is used as a base unit because Mars means you need legs/wheels/tracks to maneuver on it once you have flown to your destination. The designers then developed add on kits to the basic suit so that it can very quickly leave the 'limitations' of the humanoid form behind.
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>>251253076 (OP)
the fire rate of a tank is abysmally slow
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>>251257625
Well. Its relative. Missiles and radar got better yes, and with beam weapons there is less ToF for the target to exploit to get away. But conventional aircraft now have to deal with the fact, that at certain periods of time they are going to be topped by missiles or beam weapons from space. And jet aircraft cannot hide from something right above them. Orbital mechanics and the physics of the planets atmosphere means that you cannot permanently deny airspace from orbit, but there will be times when nothing can live above 50m from the surface.
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>>251257454
If your enemy fucks your mecha you drop a colony on them
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>>251257942
As calibers increase rate of fire drops. Unless you design a much larger loading mechanism. The Soviets went to autoloaders to eliminate the 4th crewman, not increase the rate of fire. It seemed like that was the more important thing at the time. Tank guns could be made to be more like autoloading naval guns, but unless you are going to greatly increase the speed of the targets they are going to engage, there is no reason to.
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>>251257993
>But conventional aircraft now have to deal with the fact, that at certain periods of time they are going to be topped by missiles or beam weapons from space.
I don't think you really understand. Beam weapons have a limited range before the induction field surrounding the mega-particles dissipates. Missiles can't track accurately because of Minovsky particle interference. "Orbital bombardments" in Gundam thus mean either dropping colonies on the planet, or asteroids. Without targeting, mind you. Zeon aimed for the Federation HQ in South America and overshot and hit Sydney by accident, turning the entire city into a crater.

This is why battles fought in the Universal Century are close-range only, and why Newtype abilities that bypass close-range restrictions with remote weapons like funnels, bits, and incoms dominate. Even mobile suits will burn up when attempting re-entry unless they're specifically prepared for it.
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>>251257942
>>251258109
And what counts as an "abysmally slow" rate of fire is highly dependant on how fast the thing(s) you need to shoot at are, and how quickly it can shoot back at you with something that can overcome your defenses. And another concern is that if you have an especially high rate of fire for a large gun, you'll either go through all your ammunition very quickly or need a very large magazine, each of which is its own kind of big problem.

The main gun of a tank is for engaging armoured targets, which are not going to tend to be very fast or manoeuvrable. Anything you'd really need a higher rate of fire for is going to be vulnerable enough for faster firing but less powerful secondary armaments to take care of.
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>>251258259
Well yeah, but the other anon I was chatting with was talking about plot armor. I was trying to take away some of the plot armor for illustrative purposes.
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>>251258607
>Well yeah, but the other anon I was chatting with
?
You didn't respond to anyone else in this reply chain.
--- 251258841
By the way. This is one of the very first mecha. The Carden Loyd One Man Tank. The earliest attempt to combine a soldier with a machine gun and a radio and propulsion to move their weight and a bit of protection at speed. Because the metals they had to make tracks out of were so poor, three motorcycle wheels and a hydraulicly lowered suspension were used to turn it into a motor tricycle for driving on paved roads to save the life of the tracks for off road use.
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>>251258259
>This is why battles fought in the Universal Century are close-range only, and why Newtype abilities that bypass close-range restrictions with remote weapons like funnels, bits, and incoms dominate.
That's more the justification for it. Battles are fought at close range and Newtype abilities dominate because that's what the series creators want to be the case.
--- 251259549
>>251259323
You're saying nothing here, because that's true for all fiction.
>"Why does this thing happen the way it does? Because the writers wrote it so."
Don't be asinine.
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>>251253076 (OP)
anime isn't real and no one wants to watch a show about tanks, stupid fucking retarded piece of shit
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>>251259576
>no one wants to watch a show about tanks
Could have fooled me.
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>>251253076 (OP)
They are for spess
Can you deploy a baneblade into spess?
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>>251259653
I think most people are watching the show for the girls rather than the panzer
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>>251259743
I think you underestimate just how much overlap there is on the Venn diagram of "otaku who like military hardware" and "otaku who like cute girls". Probably relatively few watch just for the tanks, but a significant number would be watching who won't watch just anything for cute girls.
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>>251259743
There's a million shows with girls, but GuP is special because tanks. 8/10 bait, made me reply.
--- 251259927
>>251256415
>Robotic legs that can balance properly while walking used to be the handicap but that has largely been solved by people like Boston Dynamics and Honda in the last couple decades.
The big issue with legs is that you lose one and your other leg isn't worth shit, meaning you have to have multiple legs (Like a spider tank) to be able to operate in case of catastrophic failure of one.
its much harder to cause catastrophic issues with tread based vehicles than with legs (Though still possible of course, but your entire rig won't collapse *Catastrophically* if broken)
--- 251260034
>>251253076 (OP)
This specific incident was made possible due to the constraints of city fighting. Normally a mobile suit would have far more room to move and be making full use of it's thrusters for mobility. In most circumstances tanks would not be able to focus fire on it like they could here. As was shown here it took a considerable volume of fire for canons of this caliber to pierce the armor and take down this Zaku which as a whole are more economical mass produced units. 

What's more is that this is one of the early gen models with thinner armor than the Zaku that would come after it. Ultimately in the Mobile suit universe there are 3 factors to consider, how well can a weapon damage a mobile suit, how well can that vehicle endure attacks from mobile suit while still remaining combat effective and how maneuverable is it? In all cases the platform best adapted to give satisfactory answers to this question is another mobile suit. 

There's also the final part of the equation in that mobile suits are designed first and foremost for space warfare with ground and atmospheric air combat being more or less secondary theaters that it can serve decently in. While a tank could hypothetically be made to counter mobile suits it would get one shot off and die. The reactor size requirements and versatility of the Mobile suit in space, air and land for a single upfront cost is why it's such a prolific weapons system. A few clever ambushes doesn't tarnish it's strengths as a flexible multi-role vehicle.
--- 251260048
>>251259927
>its much harder to cause catastrophic issues with tread based vehicles than with legs (Though still possible of course, but your entire rig won't collapse *Catastrophically* if broken)
I would say it's just not as immediately and directly catastrophic; a tank that's lost its treads can't move, and if it can't move it's a stationary target.
--- 251260096
>>251260034
>A few clever ambushes doesn't tarnish it's strengths as a flexible multi-role vehicle.
In exactly the same kind of way that a tank isn't useless just because in certain specific circumstances a dude with a Molotov can take one out.
--- 251260108
>>251260048
Depending on the tank and the era, the crew themselves could repair a damaged tread and get back up and running.

Good luck repairing a broken leg.
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>>251260108
Also depends on how much time they've got without being shot at, but yes theoretically possible and point taken about the leg.
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>>251254010
Or you could just drop the colonies.
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>>251254327
G Gundam
--- 251260204
>>251260048
Yes, but a zaku that loses its left leg is going to crash to the ground with enough force that it should break a ton of its components, instead of just being inert.

The problem is that losing a leg for a machine doesn't just render it inert it initiates an entire attack of trauma against it, which is one of the biggest dangers for large animals (The bigger you are, the more dangerous it is to fall)
--- 251260303
Give me one good reason why not a single tank-based franchise has sold the amount Gundam has.
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>>251260204
I mean yes... but my point is that if you're a sitting duck in an environment where you're being shot at by something powerful enough to damage you at all, you're ultimately still fucked, it just takes a little more time and effort on the enemy's part.
--- 251260339
>>251260034
Mobile suits can also field heavier weaponry and have heavier armor. In 0079 the Gundam's Luna Titanium alloy armor repelled Zaku repeating cannon fire and the hand-held beam rifle cut through just about all enemy armor like a hot knife through butter. That was a weapon that previously could only be used on capital ships. It changed the game, more than anything else.

After that Zeon kept scrambling to keep up, until they finally had mobile suits wielding beam rifles of their own, and the Federation mass-produced mobile suits that wielded beam spray guns as well. Aside from missile launchers kinetic weapons all but disappeared for nearly a century, and beam weaponry progressed to the point that shields were being projected out of mega particles too, a feasable defensive measure against beam weaponry instead of the failed anti-beam coatings, beam diffusion pollution, and costly i-field generators.
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>>251260303
Name 3 tank-based franchises that aren't GuP
Hard mode:Name 3 tank-based franchises that aren't GuP and also aren't complete shit
--- 251260504
>>251253076 (OP)
Behold, the ultimate weapon
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>>251260339
Weren't the anti-beam coatings still pretty good against weaker beams and glancing blows? I'd certainly want to add them to a mech just to help against funnels and similar weapons.
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>>251253076 (OP)
Tanks cant space
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>>251260359
This
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>>251260359
I'm a "giant robots are a man's romance" kind of guy but...

Those who hunt elves.
Tank Police.
Ogre.
Bolo.
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>>251253076 (OP)
>gundams function land air sea space 
>tanks stuck in .000001 inch of mud and can't even use a shovel to dig itself out
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>>251260751
>Those who hunt elves.
I can't really say that's a tank-based franchise. I mean yeah they have one, but I wouldn't say it's a defining aspect of the series.
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>>251260639
They could. There were some flying tanks in Five Star Stories that were interesting.
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>>251260826
It's what makes it unique to me. A martial artist, an actress, a gun nut and a tank. But then that's also why I posted 4.
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>>251260811
>gundam just walks over puddle
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>>251253076 (OP)
Because MS won the doctrinal conflict, and everyone went in that direction.
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>>251255670
Yes. By the end of UC the robots are 5 meters smaller.
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>>251260586
They never saw much use. They were prototyped for the Delta Gundam through the Hyaku-Shiki, but Anaheim never pursued implementation beyond that. Beyond that I think only the cloaks of the Crossbone series used it, and those could only take a single hit anyway. There were better options, like heavier armor, i-field generators, more agile suits that could evade enemy fire effectively, and eventually beam shields.
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>>251260864
I get why the turret is positioned like that but it's still funny. 
Looks like it's asking for help
>guys stop laughing and help me!
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>>251260811
If the ground is mucky enough to sink a tank, a zaku should exponentially crush into the muck due to more weight being focused on the points of its legs in contrast to a tank having its mass spread outward better with more points of contact on the ground.
It might be able to pull itself out, but the 08th shows what happens when the ground gives underneath your leg during their training excercise (Your mech gets totaled and you have to get hauled out).
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>>251260504
I mean, its fucking wrecking shit in gundam evolution right now, isn't it?
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>>251253499
>>251253762
>>251253839
huh. ok
--- 251262938
>>251255193
>Find a hill that a tank cannot climb. Climb it with your mech. Prone the mech out on the reverse slope, rain missiles on everything that moves on the plain below.
Then your hill gets pounded with artillery and your mecha is destroyed. 
>>251260034
>In most circumstances tanks would not be able to focus fire on it like they could here
They absolutely would be able to in a more open environment, a target as huge and heavy as a Zaku is not going to just casually dodge continuous fire from 120mm rounds directed by modern fire control systems.
>As was shown here it took a considerable volume of fire for canons of this caliber to pierce the armor
It didn't take multiple rounds to pierce the armor, unless multiple rounds hit in the exact same spot(incredibly unlikely) it makes no difference whether a (metal) armor plate gets hit once or twenty times, it'll stop what's rated to stop, as long as it isn't brittle poorly made metal that shatters from getting hit. Zakus just have basic steel armor. 
>how well can that vehicle endure attacks from mobile suit while still remaining combat effective 
The most effective form of protection against enemy attack is to simply not get hit, and shoot them before they can shoot you. Under normal combat circumstances, you don't have to depend on the armor to win, so good armor is not strictly necessary as long as the vehicle can put a hole through the enemy first. 
>>251260339
>giant 60 foot tall walking machine with a massive surface area that needs to be armored 
>can have heavier armor than a 25 foot long low profile box on tracks 
No, retard.
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>>251254327
Big O. Batman if he had a mech.
--- 251263244
>>251253076 (OP)
zaku is much much faster then the tank, so it flips the tank over and the tank can do literally fuck all about it.
Your better off with a drone over either though.
--- 251263366
>>251263244
good luck catching up to a small target like the tank as it and its 20 buddies are shelling you.

With the materials needed to make a zaku you can make massive more tanks, so logistically your going to be outnumbered in every encounter.
Literally the only saving grace for the zaku here is that somehow it only needs one person to pilot it instead of a crew like all other military vehicles (Which is the only theoretical reason why a zaku wouldn't be dealing with swarms of smaller units)


>>251256141
G gundam ironically being more realistic than actual "Serious" gundam series in its mech control design.
--- 251263473
>>251263152
This right here. 
I love mecha shit but most mechs anime misses the fucking point. Big O has some filler episodes mid-season 1 but otherwise it’s a cut above. And even the filler is good character progression.
High quality animation, minimal reused scenes like gundam is so often guilty of, mechs have actual weight, collateral damage is just expected when two mechs face off, and the protag is not a whiny bitch, lovesick loser, or emotionless terminator clone.
Also Norman is the best iteration of a battle butler ever.
It’s also got the distinction of having a dub that’s arguably superior.
--- 251263535
>>251254240
This is the real reason. Although it still makes zero sense to have it be bipedal rather than a quad or hexapod.
IMO they should’ve ripped off Battletech and made them use the pilots equilibrium and proprioception, making a vaguely humanoid shape (4 limbs total) a necessity.
--- 251263562
>>251263473
I love everything Steve Blum does.
--- 251263673
Mobile Suits are essentially a ship based weapons platform that is highly mobile, the scenario you posted wouldn't happened if proper scouting was conducted before deployment.

Realistically it's radar/sensor should have picked up a presence of clustered tanks and engaged is thrusters to elevate in to their where the tank main guns can't even get an elevation angle to and ninja blast them with it's handheld howitzer machine gun.
--- 251263714
>>251263673
if you can pick up tanks on radar, then your mobile suit is going to be dust far, far quicker than the tanks since that means artillery is going to be able to take out the zaku.

Which is moot as the partcile bullshit means all encounters have to basically be done via sight and sound.
--- 251263776
>>251263714

C.I.W.S. CLOSE ENGAGEMENT WEAPON ENGANGED, SWOOSH, WHOOSH BRRRRRT! ALL INCOMING MISSILES DESTROYED.
--- 251263804
>>251253076 (OP)
The only kind of mech that would really make sense would be considerably smaller than a mobile suit. Something like tachikomas from GiTS which are basically just tanks anyways.
--- 251263946
>>251263776
>missiles
>Not shells
the majority of our artillery is still just big guns.
--- 251263957
There's no real excuse for Gundams in Gundam series that aren't W and 00, ironically.

Things MS are good at: "doing space, enclosed confines 0G, colony interior, urban, open terrain maneuver, rough terrain maneuver, and shallow-water fighting all on the same platform"

Things MS are bad at:
"doing space fighting against a fighter with any kind of thrust other than just out its ass"
"doing enclosed confines 0G fighting against a ball/oggo" 
"doing colony interior fighting against emplacement artillery who don't even have to deal with ballistics, can just point and fire because there is no gravity only centripetal force that is equally applied to the projectile and the target"
"doing urban fighting against anyone who can plant an IED"
"doing open-terrain maneuver against the several hundred M60s/T-64s that could be produced at the same cost"
"doing rough terrain maneuver against the several dozen helicopters that could be produced at the same cost, or several thousand MANPADs carried by the local Mountain/Jaeger/Mountain Rifle/etc division"
"actually maneuver is wehraboo masturbation in general compared to the tens of thousands of high-explosive shells at a comparable cost that can be flung from over the horizon with 1940s tech and cover the entire square kilometer the MS might be in"
congrats, unless your plan is stochastic raids that have to be pulled off with a personnel roster who couldn't fill out a modern American fireteam, you have invented a diesel submarine that can also move sideways

OYW death counts is not an excuse, the OYW killed half of humanity and still left twice as many alive as there were in 1940
--- 251263974
>>251261021
This is the most straightforward explanation. MS tech was leading so that's what the arms race focused on.
--- 251264020
>>251263946
if we're going to get semantic, any form of projectile counts as a missle. Even a thrown stone, an arrow, or a shot from a sling can be called a missile
--- 251264027
>>251263946
Depends on the platform and target. Arguably any artillery intended for use against a mobile suit should be missiles.
--- 251264119
>>251263535
They are mainly meant for use in space, where most of their movement and stabilization is done by thrusters anyway. Having more limbs could just get in the way of colony boarding operations. There are some gundam designs though that do make use of the pilot's equilibrium and proprioception, but usually it's a minor mention of some system rather than a notable part of the design. iirc Psycommu systems make use of it because of how they interface with the pilot's mind.
--- 251264127
>>251263957
>the OYW killed half of humanity
I don't remember this, how? Their was a nuke and a colony drop but theirs no way that killed billions and billions of people.
--- 251264157
"minovsky particles! it's all sight and sound!" is also not an excuse, this is 2023 there is literally an actual war on ft. everything that was supposed to get thrown into the Fulda Gap and it turns out the actual useful artillery targeting is still "we flew over it and saw this", phased microphone arrays, and "they're somewhere in map square B5, let's just turn the entire area into a crater"

drones are nice for catching people trying to shoot and scoot, but the obvious solution to "minovsky particles fuck those" is "what if we sent ten cheap drones flying 1km apart and signaling with lasers" or even "what if we put ten rednecks no one would miss in planes flying 1km apart and had them signal each other with lasers"

the point of Gundam isn't "robots are cool and good", it's "robots are cool and selling robot toys let us write this story about how dad was a fucking dipshit who got owned when the Americans/Russians also figured out how to build the 'wunder'waffen he was working on"
--- 251264231
>>251264127
One Week through Loum, Half the Feddie-aligned pop was in loyal colonies that got absolutely pulped.
--- 251264486
Actually the bipedal form is loved by god and blessed with all his powers. It's only our sinful nature that causes us to keep designing belly-crawling vehicles.
--- 251264776
>>251264127
It's a combination of two events early on in the One-Wear War: The One-Week Battle and the Battle of Loum. 

The One-Week Battle was the opening to the One-Year War. Zeon's forces attacked Side 1, Side 2, and Side 4. Nuclear and chemical weapons were used indiscriminately, and Zeon nerve gas was used to suppress enemy garrisons, which also mass killed the civilians of the colonies. Over 2.8 billion people died in one day of fighting.

The OWB culminated in Operation British, where an emptied colony (nerve gassed by Cima, who didn't quite realize the scope of what she was doing and then was blamed for the mass murder) was attempted to be dropped on the Federation nuclear silos of Jaburo, their Earth headquarters. The colony broke up mid-descent and careened off-course, landing on Sydey, Australia instead. The city was vaporized, 16% of the continent was turned into a crater, and massive climate changes occurred afterwards.

The Battle of Loum occurred shortly after Operation British. Zeon attempted to hijack colonies from Side 5, known as Loum Province, to conduct more colony drops on Jaburo and end the war. During their retrofitting of the nuclear engines, the Federation main space fleet arrived and opened fire. Nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons were used indiscriminately, resulting in massive military and civilian casualties. Numerous colonies of Side 5 were destroyed in the battle. 2.5 billion civilians died in the battle, with 500 million active soldiers losing their lives in the process. Many of Zeon's aces earned their names here, including Char, Johnny Ridden, Shin Matsunaga, and the Black Tri-Stars. The Tri-Stars also captured General Revil, ending the Battle of Loum in a decisive victory for Zeon. The only remaining colony of Side 5 was the damaged Texas Colony, and the debris from the battle became known as the Shoal Zone.

As a result of these, 5.5 billion people died, out of humanity's total of 11 billion people. Half of humanity died.
--- 251264868
>>251256127
We get finger/arm/leg guns in G-reco and they're comical. We get those 'balls with guns' in MSG and they get phased out. The series does occasionally have 'realistic' or at least tries to show what the 'optimal' configuration is, but mechs after are just big humans and that's what the audience identifies with. Hell there's many a mobile armour that has no legs, or is JUST a weapons platform. Or those fucking bikes from victory.
--- 251265022
>Military geeks: thesis about the potential capabilities of other weapons platforms
>The Earth Federation: "Eh, we're not gonna bother defending side 7, that's really far away." *Keeps buying mobile suits from 50 years ago* while sipping monster energy.
--- 251265218
>>251265022
But seriously, this is what they came up with when they started re-arming after Zeon decided it was gonna be independent, and it got utterly shrecked by MS. In universe you'd sound like a fucking lunatic for advocating to replace MS with more of these.
--- 251265219
>>251264776
Was it the Federation that killed everyone at Side 5? Zeon was already in control of it.
--- 251265277
>>251265022
The biggest failure of Gundam is the theory that the Federation would degenerate into "eh this 50yo MS is OK" instead of degenerating into "You want to shoot ten or so existing 500-credit shells we've already bought at the Zanscare and your nomograms say it's a sure kill? Nonononono, my campaign donor says that it's far more efficient to shoot one new 250000-credit guided munition."

* cost of guided munition may triple in actual development
--- 251265291
>>251253076 (OP)
--- 251265322
>>251253762
>>251253839

So Anon what you are saying is we actually NEED mobile suits for the US SPACE FORCE?
--- 251265323
>>251265219
It was fighting on both sides. Side 5 was a Federation-controlled point, and so Zeon didn't care much for civilian casualties. After General Revil was captured both sides signed a truce so they could negotiate the terms of the Federation's surrender, but General Revil managed to escape and gave his "Zeon is exhausted!" speech to the Earth Federation Forces. The Federation thus rejected all terms of surrender, but signed the Antarctic Treaty with Zeon, banning the use of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons in the war. This also meant no more colony drops, so Zeon had to do things the hard way and occupy Federation territory and attack bases the old-fashioned way. Hence what we see in 0079.
--- 251265335
>>251265277
Wish we got to actually see the corruption, how politicians get 'voted' in. That whole process. We're shown a few are complete cowards and sell outs but that's it.
--- 251265340
>>251265277
I think the EF is a one party state and being friends with the party infrastructure is what matters, not campaign donations.
--- 251265404
>>251265323
I just read about the battle and there is absolutely nothing mentioning the fighting in the colony. There's a giant fleet battle and then afterwards everyone is dead. I'm just wondering who exactly decided to engage the colony itself during the space battle. It almost reads like they were bystanders that got hit by strays.
--- 251265422
>>251265340
Campaign donations still matter in a lot of one-party states. Especially Japan or the US where the real race for most politicians is the primary.

Party infrastructure matters, but who the party infrastructure is is of course who brings in the money--not even because it's money but because that's how we can count the opinions of entities which have political power but are not legally individuals.
--- 251266760
>>251260811
That had to be a tank trap, right?
--- 251266910
>>251265322
Astronaut Suits are essentially primitive Mobile Suits. We'll eventually create Mobile Suits that will be used for space Travel that will also have fighting capabilites, but majority of them will not be as big as anime Mobile Suits.
--- 251266954
>>251253403
Uhhh mechakeks our response???
--- 251266980
>>251266910
If you consider the penalties of having to move more mass there's logic to future combat to involve small numbers of all-purpose combat machines. This is assuming skirmishing and smaller scale battles, not total war.
--- 251268134
>>251260864
I wonder if that was a mistake or a genuine attempt to cross.
--- 251268453
>>251259743
I watched it for the tanks, thee girls was a plus.
--- 251268692
>>251253076 (OP)
Mecha toys sell better than tank toys.
--- 251268785
>>251261113
I'm kinda surprised that this post still up after 7 fucking hours
--- 251268908
>>251253076 (OP)
More money for weapons manufacturers.
--- 251269136
>>251262938
You are correct that they would be able to focus fire technically but the problem with tanks comes from the fact that their turrets turn slowly and the turret elevation is not very fast. In almost all circumstances when a mobile suit is going full tilt unless the tank crew is exceptionally good at leading their shots and able to think 4 steps ahead the tanks are limited to surprise alpha strikes. I do concede though that tanks technically could get a hit on them in more open environments. But the mobile suit in question has to be pinned down somehow. 

>>251264157
That's the conversation that we should be having. How hybrid atmospheric/space drone craft are more economically viable than Mobile Suits since they can both keep up with them, be fielded in larger numbers and in many cases reliably evade them. An EMP hardened drone craft is capable of far greater acceleration and maneuverability than a mobile suit. While it isn't capable of fielding as heavy weaponry as a mobile suit so long as it is equipped with something capable of reasonably damaging one the sheer volume of fire from a pack of these drones would be capable of quickly killing a mobile suit as it is attacked from all directions at once. They could be killed in a single shot and as such would have a consistent rate of attrition but they would ultimately require far less investment due to their smaller size, not needing heavy armor or servos and having far simpler construction, being a single energy weapon, some thrusters and an aerodynamic frame. 

Such a craft would actually make tanks more viable as it would create scenarios where a mobile suit needed to hunker down in a place that narrows the air attack options. While in space the drones would be even more effective not in anti-ship combat but specifically warding of enemy mobile suits. What such a vehicle would do is render mobile suits useless in ground conflict and relegate them to a sort of "bomber" role during space combat.
--- 251269181
>>251269136
>their turrets turn slowly and the turret elevation is not very fast.
This is not WW2 anymore. Imagine what sci-fi tanks could do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEC9cCRwfkE [Embed]
--- 251269253
>>251253076 (OP)
Because Gundams fly and tanks can't.
--- 251269380
>>251257879
she's a big ol bitch
--- 251269422
>>251256300
Words to live by.
--- 251269432
>shooting a gun from inside an armored box
weak and cowardly
>punching your enemy inside a giant metal man
extremely manly
--- 251269624
>>251253076 (OP)
tanks can't be used in space. if you want a more grounded (literally) gundam series then 08th ms team has the gundams used in a combined arms approach, with aircraft, tanks, and even infantry using man-portable heavy weapons all play a role. being a biped means the gundam can maneuver over terrain a tracked vehicle can't after all since it's still a gundam show at the end of the day, the gundams are practically as acrobatic as a human being and can easily climb over shit in mountains, desert, jungle, and even work in water. 

the problem in reality is getting a giant robot to be as flexible and mobile and acrobatic as gundams somehow are, there's definitely advantages to walkers though which is why militaries are already buying those boston dynamics dogbots
--- 251269830
>>251269624
I think there's big difference between small scale robots and giant pilot-able mecha.
Also, I don't understand why people compare giant mecha that break laws of physics with modern tanks that operate under the laws of physics.
anyway, I prefer combined arms.
--- 251269940
Mechas are stupid because they are way too big and the design is so complex that maintenance would be basically impossible. I worked on strykers and it could take weeks to get one of those little metal boxes working. 

That said mechas are cool and if they work by magic I'm ok with it.
--- 251270025
imagine what compact fusion reactors could do for military aircraft though...
--- 251271276
>>251253076 (OP)
You can just look at archives of /k/ and all the time retards from /m/ showed up convinced that anime logic would beat real life military capabilities.
I fucking love cute anime girls with guns. But like mecha; only delusional retards want women in the military IRL
At the end of the day, the real reason is that they wanted to sell robot toys to little kids.

>>251257625
>>251258259
Why can't missiles track properly because of the retardsky particle bullshit? Is there any actual lore or rules for this crap other than just "They don't work because I say so"?
Even if it fucked with radar or IR emissions, what stops optical contrast seeker FNF missiles from working?
Or beam-riding laser-guided munitions?
Is communications affected, too? It doesn't seem to be in G-witch. So then a big flare on the back for sight followed by manual control and eyeballing it like early AGMs should be fine, right?
What about wire-guided? It sure doesn't look like most mecha fights happen at ranges beyond 3km, so what stops a perfectly ordinary infantry-portable TOW launcher from absolutely pushing a mecha's shit in? How are mechs going to cope with the possibility of a mach .99 TOW missile taking their leg off because it's a gigantic easily-spotted target? Are you going to detect a couple guys and a tube in a ditch or bombed out building before they easily detect you with Mk. I eyeballs?
How's a gundam supposed to protect a base from a tomahawk launched from the other side of the country that guides itself via landmarks and topology?
Shit like this is only said by people ignorant of just how advanced modern military technology is, and all the technology I listed is stuff that either is or was in service; not even protoshit.

>>251257625
What protects the mecha from getting shredded by a plane and its ballistic computer flying in from the direction of the sun?

>>251260096
>Molotovs
Doesn't really work anymore.
https://youtu.be/FpiGLA9BKWc?t=1101 [Embed]
--- 251272231
>>251253076 (OP)
Because giant robots are fucking cool, that's why.
--- 251272285
>>251253403
>HEAT OF THE DESERT
>DUST SETTLES ON MY FACE
>WITHOUT A COMPASS THE SOLDIER KNOWS NO DISGRACE
--- 251272583
>>251268134
seems like a mistake
--- 251272627
>>251260811
>>251260864
>>251272583
tankbros... not like this
--- 251272773
>>251272627
Problem, Officer?
--- 251272899
>>251253403
>That counter at the end
Smooth
--- 251272943
>>251253076 (OP)
Wait, this isn´t /m/
--- 251273356
>>251260811
>>251260864
>>251272583
>>251272627
>>251272773
>Meanwhile; Mecha IRL
--- 251273619
>>251271276
Yeah man you’re right if Amuro commandeered an F-4X Gunphantom and dropped a paveway on Char in the beginning of 0079 that’d be just as cool and well remembered as what we got. You type all these War Thunder words that nobody else but me and the other /k/fags care about, when the reasoning is as simple as >>251272231
--- 251273630
>>251269940
Yeah that’s a big part you have to ignore unless it takes that into account but I can’t recall one that did that really.
--- 251273750
>>251269253
I don't see why giant robots can fly but tanks can't.
--- 251273782
>>251269940
Zaku's with all their mechanical parts weigh only 70 tons at 18m and they're supposedly more armored than the EF tanks. Meanwhile the Abrams without a turret ring is around 65 tons at 7m length. 
They messed up the dimensions really bad.
--- 251273796
>>251273750
Would flying tanks be cool?
--- 251273849
>>251273782
Meant to say that the Abams only has one turret ring.
--- 251273963
>>251273796
basically attack helicopters so I guess?
--- 251274025
>>251273356
Are you telling me Obsolete predicted the future?
Also
>Will save many lives.
More will take many lives.
--- 251274367
>>251273619
>nobody else but me and the other /k/fags
AKA people that actually have even a semblance knowledge on the matter whatsoever.
The problem isn't whether it's cool or the way it happened in the series. It's that retards keep thinking it's somehow viable IRL and making retarded arguments about retardsky particles and the "advantages" of bipedal locomotion when it would just sink straight into mud and streets at that scale.
Imagine someone who liked GuP unironically arguing that we should replace tank crews with little japanese girls. Or a Strike Witches fan earnestly believing that we should design leg-attached propellors/jets instead of planes.
It's absolute retardation no matter how much I love the anime the two are featured in. They're just that; anime.
--- 251274421
>>251271276
>Why can't missiles track properly because of the retardsky particle bullshit? Is there any actual lore or rules for this crap other than just "They don't work because I say so"?

Minovksy particles utterly ruin any electronics that aren't INCREDIBLY shielded to the point that it's not even practical to put them in missiles, via gundam century, and it's not feasible to just not use minvoksy particle generating reactors because they're literally what make the compact fusion reactors work.
--- 251275645
>>251274421
>That aren't INCREDIBLY shielded
How shielded? Have you seen how big some modern SAMs are? And that's just to hit a modern jet. If your target is an 18m tall mecha then making a bigger missile with some more shielding is certainly worth it from a cost perspective.
I went ahead and googled some stats just now. Naturally, US doctrine isn't too big on SAM systems compared to simply achieving complete air supremacy, so the best contenders for this are gonna be Russian systems.

Going off wikipedia: The S-400 in service since 2007 can launch a 1,835 kg 40N6DM missile travelling at 4,500 mph with range of 250km and a 180kg warhead.
Let's say we add on some more shielding and make it an even 2,000kg for the missile. This will naturally reduce the missile performance. By how much? I'm not a fucking rocket scientist and I'm not doing the math, but I think it'd be more than fair to you even if we reduced the performance by half.
So, a 2,000kg anti-gundam missile travelling at 2250mph (Mach 2.95) with a range of 125km.
Do you think a 70 ton mecha could dodge a 1,000 meters per second missile that came flying at it from 125km away?

And this is the S-400, not the S-500 which entered into service in 2021, but I'd rather not get mired into [current thing] bullshit, so I went ahead and used the S-400. After all, I'm certain even the specs of that would be enough. Many fiction writers just don't understand the capabilities of modern technology, and even if they did, it generally doesn't fit their stories, which is understandable and perfectly fine.
However, if there's one thing humanity is better at IRL than in most fiction, it's killing and blowing shit up. Trying to pit the ideas of a show designed to sell toys to kids against the engineering abilities of Humanity's most important industry just never works out. Same with 40ktards and their ships that weigh less than the air it would displace or wunderwaffen tanks that are worse than an Abrams in every metric.
--- 251275818
>>251271276
>>251275645
I'm not saying they are a perfect answer but there is a good deal explaining Minovksy particles.
Minovksy particles, which are just a UC timeline thing, are based upon muons, though they do have some contradictory properties, they are mainly muons. Muons are, to describe them very roughly, really heavy electrons that decay too fast to be of any use. If you had muons that lasted a reasonable length of time you could do at least some of the stuff that they do with Minovksy particles, including compact fusion reactors and general fuck all communications/electronics areas. That's because as, heavy electrons, they can have enough momentum to just go through metal, and will easily penetrate far more deeply than x-rays. They can actually penetrate more than a meter of solid metal. However because they still react to electric forces they will directly affect electronics, and because of their weight and momentum they can convey a lot of energy into things. Spraying stable muons into an area like they do Minovksy particles would probably have far worse effects than they have with Minovksy particles.

Also they have explanations for how they deal with the communications interference, mainly it's lasers though. There are some Minovksy particle based systems for communications after some point.
--- 251276029
>>251275645
IIRC the entire makeup of an MS is basically to reuse every part of the reactor, the systems push the particles generated towards the joints to use the effects to make them move smoother and with less friction, then push them out (meaning every MS has an incredibly weak i-field in effect); so we're already at more sophisticated means than just "put a fat slab of steel here." And IIRC in very heavy concentration the air starts to look foggy because they're messing with the light waves themselves once they get to a heavy concentration. So you're making an incredibly large, heavy, missile, that has to go off completely fucked up sensors, or you could do what they do in universe and just barrage the entire area while deploying MS behind your barrages. And don't forget you need your missile, and launch platform both to be able to handle this because these reactors power every fucking thing.

And this is a setting that had a big war, one doctrinal idea won out, then another war to even sniff the scale of that war never happened, thus there's no impetus to move away from that doctrine because it just werks.
--- 251276094
>>251275818
Even lasers don't work in ultra-high concentration IIRC, thus why every now and then people basically NEED to use contact circuits for communication.
--- 251277976
>>251275818
If their communications are laser-based, wouldn't that just mean the exact same shielding technology can be applied towards beam-riding munitions?

>>251276029
Those capabilities are with current technology's propulsion systems. I don't see any real reason to use the magitech fiction reactors, unless the minovsky particles somehow alter the universe's laws of physics so that rocket propulsion for the missile and IC engines for the truck no longer work. The 40N6DM missile I mentioned is rated against targets travelling at 4,800m/s or 11,000 mph (mach 14). They use these against cruise missiles too, after all. So even if we went ahead and halved that performance to a max target speed of 2,400 m/s (mach 7), have we seen any mecha break mach 7?
As for the missile being large and heavy; so is the target.

I didn't know about the particles being circulated throughout the mecha. If that's the case, rather than make conventional sensors hardened against the particles, what if you just made a missile that seeks out the particle concentrations themselves? The same tech as a modern Anti-Radiation Missile, except aimed at mecha-shaped minovsky particle concentrations? Even if you absolutely have to stick a reactor onto it somewhere to emulate the mecha shielding field, it should be doable to design a system that recognizes and ignores its own emissions. 

As for doctrine, that's a perfectly reasonable explanation if they're simply in some sort of doctrinal/technological slump, but then you have anons arguing that mecha are actually the best rather than simply what they have to work with, which is what these arguments are about.

The scale of things in fiction is just completely different from real life. Not to mention this being a several decades old series from the time when dinosaurs walked and Pierre Sprey was still shilling his retarded idea of high G-load dogfighting as the future of air combat.
Modern military tech is pretty sugoi, you know.
--- 251279791
Zakubump
--- 251280207
>>251268453
This.
Also the soundtrack and sound design is real dang good
--- 251280655
>>251253403
is this armored core
--- 251281830
>>251277976
As far as I remember their laser communications are kind of janky and inconsistent. There were issues like a mirage effect, the visual path to the target won't necessarily let you get a laser on target, because that path will instead bend light some other way. So you would need both a closer range spotter painting the target, and a long range visual path from where you launch the munition. Still though I think the issue was supposed to be that the electronics of the munitions would stop functioning when passing through an area where Minovksy particles have been spread. Which is itself kind of silly when they later came out with funnels, which are small drones controlled by nearby mobile suits. Though the controls for the funnels(which don't have sensors) do rely on something that is even more space magic than Minovksy particles, and are basically psychic powers.

As far as using Minovksy particles for targeting, the issue with that is standard practice is to spray the combat area and that mobile suits making use of the particles only really emit them through weapon and thrusters. Mobile suits are still a source, but not compared to the background. So kind of like trying to use ir to see a person standing inside a fire. Mind you I do know that you can with modern ir systems actually target a person standing inside of a fire. So it's hard, but only hard.
--- 251282513
>>251281830
Well, I'm still not fond of their attempts to slap a fancy word onto space magic and pretend it's science. Though to be fair, it's not like toy salesmen of the 70s would have known much about their contemporary weaponry, nevermind 21st century tech.
Ah well, shikata ga nai. The giant robots aren't the important part of Gundam now anyway.
--- 251283134
>>251277976
>what if you just made a missile that seeks out the particle concentrations themselves?
That sounds kind of like designing a missile to seek out the sound a helicopter rotor makes. It's actually very hard because of sound being reflected by the environment and how the rotor noise modulates depending on angle, distance and velocity.
--- 251283418
>>251283134
>That sounds kind of like designing a missile to seek out the sound a helicopter rotor makes.
no, It's more like this. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile
--- 251285127
>>251254051
Nice shoes.
--- 251285147
>>251283418
Those are for (near)stationary targets though, aren't they?
--- 251285615
Mechs were meant to be spacecraft + power armour. People forget that spheres are better spacecraft and power armour works better when it isn't fucking enormous. Anyway, rule of cool. They aren't applicable in reality.
--- 251285777
>>251260303
Because why franchise fantasy tanks? I guarantee you, hands down, that models of real life tanks have moved far more units than all mecha combined. Be it $2 plastic tanks, to model kits assembled and painted by Tamiya Brand Tamiya Paints. I can handedly say every single kid in the west has played with a toy tank. Only weebs/Japs played with mecha too.
--- 251285977
Because big robots are really cool. Next question.
--- 251286037
Im a gundam newbie, i really enjoyed bloodiron orphans, ill take a terminator cliche mc anyday of the week over most other mc's shows have now a day, and im currently watching the bitch from mercury just cause i dont know where to start with the real gundam gang. Please help me i am obviously retarded. My fave gundamish anime is either code geass or legend of galactic heroes. 
>how do i into gundam
--- 251286716
>>251285777
>. I can handedly say every single kid in the west has played with a toy tank.
if you're just going to succumb to your delusions then there's no point talking to you
--- 251287006
>>251260504
WOOOO
--- 251287146
>>251260504
>>251261527
Nothing beat the efficiency of armored guns on threads
--- 251287198
>>251286716
His statement is wrong due to a severe flaw. He forgot to state he meant heterosexual male children. Not women or faggots.
In all seriousness though, it really depends on how loose his definition of a toy tank is. I doubt the fancy to-scale tank kits themselves beat mecha toys, but if you include all the other shit, yeah.

Also, he's not wrong that there's a massive difference in customer base. Tanks are a global thing, after all.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were more real tanks made throughout history than gundams sold. I'm at least willing to bet there's at least one Gundam flop in the history of the company that didn't do too well and ended up having moved less numbers than real-life Shermans.
--- 251287464
No sign of boots on the ground faggots. Has /a/ finally matured out of 08th MS Team shilling?
--- 251287619
>>251286037
Just start from production order dude. 0079->Zeta->ZZ (you can skip it if you're a bitch-ass nigger who can't stand the tonal whiplash going into it from Zeta, just don't expect to get closure on some characters if you skip it)->Char's Counterattack, then you can go and watch whatever interests you next from here on out. You can't go wrong with 0080 and G Gundam either so you can watch those if you're interested.
Also IBO is an outlier in its MC, most Gundam MCs aren't that gung ho about fighting/killing and mostly do so because they're roped into it or because they have no other choice and tend to grow tired of all the fighting after a while.
--- 251288300
>>251257454
Just slap a backpack with wings on your mech and call it a day.
--- 251290230
>>251273356
the future is here!
--- 251290565
>>251290230
--- 251292024
>>251290565
--- 251293597
>>251292024
Heh.
--- 251293988
>>251253076 (OP)
Zakus have better mobility than tanks. But thats about it. I think tanks are actually more cost efficient. Maybe perhaps if the Zaku had a really skilled pilot who can make use of their environment, dodge incoming balistics and do a little bit of guerilla it would be better.
--- 251294038
>>251293988
>Zakus(fictional giant robot) have better mobility than (real life)tanks
No shit.
--- 251294087
>>251253076 (OP)
I too saw your reddit post friend. Upvoted.
--- 251294184
>>251293988
>I'm sure to win because my speed is superio-
>AIEEEEEE, SAVE ME CHAR SAMA!
--- 251295957
>>251264868
I mean, by the end funnels were how your mobile suit lived and died due to Psychic powers bullshit, so a single mobile control pod with a billion funnels around it seems like the best design at the end of the day for space combat.
--- 251296406
>>251271276
I think near the end they were saying that minosky particles also affected actual visual "can I see that thing in the distance?" detection over long range so that you'd shoot to hit something and would end up hitting 10-100 feet off because of light curving or some shit.

>>251273796
Starfox has flying tanks, or at least hovering/burst maneuver tanks.

>>251274421
This begs the question of why the gundam itself isn't getting superfried, since the particles distribution should be much, much larger at "ground zero" of the reactor than outside the mech itself.

>>251272627
>>251272583
>>251260864
>>251260811
I kind of get a "tank hentai" feeling with these images like there should be some giant tank with an overly large barrel pulling up omniously behind them.
--- 251296972
>>251254010
anon has a good point here, take for example the iraq war: the initial fighting was conducted with great success primarily via air but the post-war turned into a fucking mess because you can't occupy a country with planes. in the end we had to muster up an army via reserves because drafting soldiers would have turned the american electorate instantly against PNAC's plans
--- 251298251
>>251296972
How the fuck would 18 meter mechas help if space-hajis are crawling through the ventilation system planting IEDs at space starbucks?
That's a terrible comparison because the supposed solution to the IRL problem is literally worse than what we had IRL.
The solution is genocide and replacement, by the way.
--- 251298336
>>251296972
A nice reference. Your post highlights that war is political. A military fights to achieve objectives, not simply to win fights for the sake of it. If you set an impossible objective no amount of martial superiority will keep you from failing.
--- 251299791
>>251260504
Beat me to it
--- 251301578
>>251253076 (OP)
Oh my god this discourse again, look I know mechs aren't realistic but they're cool and make for interesting fights

Also tanks don't work in space and the primary goal of mobile suits is to sink battleships and infiltrate colonies
--- 251301638
>>251301578
Why giant robots can work in space but taks can't? 
And how would a 18 meters tall guy infiltrate an apartment?
--- 251301844
>>251301578
If gundam was to add realism they really should emphasize that there is different line of MS for colony/urban combat like the LOTO. Much smaller, and to be deployed with accompanying infantry. Too many times normal MS's are flying inside the colonies.
--- 251301887
>>251257879
>The Advance of Zeta
Has that been translated anywhere yet?
--- 251301966
>>251301578
>tanks don't work in space
yeah, but then you just have fighters instead.

mech's only make sense if you have an abundance of raw materials but no pilots (Since logistically you should be able to field far more smaller fighters than Zakus).

while its true that "zeon lost all their good pilots early" is a factor, its also true that the costs of putting out new impractical mech suits is the more important reason they lost, meaning that materials/costs aren't limitless.


On the note of fighters, the fact that their battleships were basically immobile hunks in space and weren't constantly on the move is a big reason they were such sitting ducks against mobile suits.
--- 251302148
>>251253076 (OP)
50 FUCKING YEARS
--- 251302378
>>251301966
Part of the size of the mobile suits was the reactor size, so you can't make something much smaller without skipping the reactor. The reactor though is a gain on resources in comparison to chemical fuel for propulsion. Considering the cost of the reactor, and the minimum size of a vessel using one, you probably aren't getting even close to two fighters for the price of one Zaku.
--- 251302454
>>251302378
The chest is going to be all you need for the reactor, the legs, arms and head are all unrequired to house the reactor.

So that's about 50% more mass/hit profile that you could cut down on to make a jet with a reactor+Beam weapon.
--- 251302475
>>251255896
--- 251302504
>>251253076 (OP)
a) tanks cant fight in space
b) tanks cant fight underwater
c) tanks cant do shit like trans-am
--- 251302514
>>251302378
>>251302454
Let me introduce you.
--- 251302543
>>251302504
>a) tanks cant fight in space
>b) tanks cant fight underwater
I don't see why giant mecha would do better than tank in space and underwater
--- 251302795
>>251302514
Still an absolute shit, you'd want what looks like a funnel with a pilot. The gun is horrifically placed as well, its aimed like you'd expect someone to stand behind it and man the gun.
--- 251302870
>>251302795
>Still an absolute shit
Which is funny because in real life it would be far better than any mobile suits.
--- 251303041
>>251302514
Doesn't have a reactor, and is basically just a gun, a pilot, and a propulsion system that is retarded. They are cheap to make, but operating them long term wouldn't be. I wasn't saying you can't make a better space fighter than Zaku are for a relatively good price, just that you won't get significantly more of them with the same resources.
--- 251303083
>>251303041
How much does one Zaku cost?
--- 251304775
>>251302795
>The gun is horrifically placed as well
It's mounted like any turret. How is that bad?
--- 251304807
>>251253076 (OP)
THERES A GASARAKI EP ABOUT THIS. DON'T ACTUALLY WATCH GASARAKI THO
--- 251304881
>>251302543
Ultracompact fusion reactor means more propulsion instead of having to rely on shitty liquid fuel
--- 251305458
>>251304881
And why can't tanks use this ultracompact fusion reactor?
--- 251305559
>>251305458
>Why can't bicycles use a Hemi
--- 251305604
>>251305458
Because the size of the reactor is still larger than what people think of for the size of a tank. Honestly it just means that you would need to make a larger tank.
--- 251305712
>>251253076 (OP)
Minovsky Particles messes heavily with radar and communications (the internet legitimately does not exist in UC timeline of Gundam), the MS armor makes conventional weapons generally useless, the size and speed of the MS means it can easily dodge and just step on any tanks in its way, and MS in general can do shit like throw a fucking boulder at your face.
--- 251305797
>>251305458
>And why can't tanks use this ultracompact fusion reactor?
Anon, have you fucking seen the size of a Mobile Suit? The standard height of one is 18 meters tall. The largest modern tank we have today, the M1 Abrams 2.44 meters tall. It ain't fitting shit in it.
--- 251305963
>>251305797
The reactor is in the torso, right? So not that much bigger.
Anyway, you can always make bigger tanks. It's a fiction after all.
--- 251306070
Another size comparison
--- 251306957
>>251253076 (OP)
How do the beam sabers work?
--- 251307299
so, if the evil zeon empire used nukes and biological warfare and chemical warfare to kill over 5 billion people and then later on tried to nuke the planet by dropping all the space colonies and also throwing meteors at it, how come the rest of humanity didn't just murder them in retaliation in order to end any remains of zeon permanently?
--- 251307321
>>251306957
The exact explanation depends on the series, but in UC the original setup was Minovsky particles can be used to create a kind of forcefield. The forcefield is called an i-field. The beam saber is basically a blade shaped i-field that is then filled with a lot of high energy Minovsky particles. The i-field is best at interacting with Minovsky particles, and then electrons, then conductive materials. Basically if you hit something with the blade the forcefield passes into the object, possibly dispersing to some extent, but the high energy Minovsky particles are still contained within and will hit the object or spread out destructively where the forcefield is weakened by passing through the object.
--- 251307936
>>251253403
RULES
OF
NATURE
--- 251308366
>>251307321
>Minovsky particles
Is there anything they can't do?
--- 251308745
>>251308366
They are basically all the hopes and dreams people had about Muons after they were discovered, and more, so no.
--- 251310963
>>251308745
>all the hopes and dreams people had about Muons
Did people really? That sounds like a meme.
--- 251311614
>>251310963
It's not like they were common things, just stuff some people really wanted to be able to do, and thought maybe Muons could be used to do them. As well as random stuff other science fiction writers came up with. Muons don't last long enough to even test if they can properly produce lattice fields, yet a lot of people came up with all sorts of things they could do with those lattice fields. Then we know we can do Muon catalyzed fusion, it just doesn't generate anywhere near enough energy to produce Muons fast enough to counteract their decay. Minovsky particles are basically just a lot of theoretical stuff people said about Muons, as well as some other stuff added in as well like their fusion into mega particles.
--- 251311785
>>251280655
Anon's indie tank action game on /v/. One webm every year or so.
--- 251311895
>>251311614
That's genuinely interesting. I get the impression people put more effort into the science part of science-fiction compared to today.
--- 251312588
>>251265218
But Fly Mantas are actually pretty good for what they are, its even good in Gihren Greed. Its a competent bomber that beats the shit out of Zeon's aircraft and allows it to bomb positions uncontested, its not really meant to take out MS

The Corefighters on the other and that became straight up aircraft is what they used to take out MS
--- 251312738
>>251302543
>I lack vision
that sounds like a personal problem
--- 251312888
>>251302543
--- 251313045
>>251312738
>>251312888
Do these prove anything?
--- 251313159
>>251253076 (OP)
Mountainous terrain
--- 251316166
>>251287006
--- 251316514
>>251259743
I watched it for the Girls and Tanks
--- 251318065
>>251262938
artillery isn't 1/1 direct, missiles would be the biggest threat
--- 251319859
>>251318065
There's are rocket boosted guided artillery shells which blur the line. Would be perfect for a large target like an MS.
--- 251319915
>>251253076 (OP)
tanks cannot into space
--- 251319941
>>251318065
>missiles would be the biggest threat
ATGMs are little threat when you can knock them out from well outside their maximum range with artillery, which they can't avoid because they're used by giant ass robots that have decided to make themselves into exposed sitting ducks on top of a hill. 
Why not just give the missiles to infantry who can dig in and hide much better, while being vastly cheaper?
--- 251320058
Somewhat unrelated but man Mobile G Fighter is the goddamn best thing Gundam has done.
I had watched like 5 episodes of the 79 Gundam a couple years ago and wasn't feeling it, I'll give it a try some time again in the future mostly because I want to reach ZZ with that Jazz opening that reminds me of Ashita no Joe, I can tell the story will make you suffer a lot with an opening like that.


But anyway, right now, SHINING FINGER is the most epic shit ever. Reminds me of Digimon Savers, Tengen Toppa, and more accurately Saint Seiya. Should be a mandatory watch for any shonen lover.
--- 251320070
>>251319941
--- 251320280
>>251320070
what anime, iron orphans? That's some neat animation
--- 251320394
>>251320280
The 08th MS Team
--- 251320444
>>251253076 (OP)
space maneuvers also minevsky particles.
--- 251321051
Not like this Gundambros
--- 251321738
>>251253076 (OP)
Minovsky particles. Every Zaku comes with a personal anti-comunication/anti-radar field.
--- 251323359
SHINING FINGER
--- 251323982
>>251320058
>>251323359
G Gundam is very interesting.
--- 251326563
>>251320070
>nut-tapping a Zaku
>it works
--- 251326854
Came late to this thread, but why is this even an arguments anymore, just go watch Gasarki to cover all the points where mechs would be better than tanks
--- 251327507
>>251326854
Tanks and IFVs in Gasaraki were gimped and crewed by retards though. there's nothing resemble their real life performance in that scene.
--- 251327809
>>251327507
Keep coping and seething tankhead
--- 251328045
>>251327809
Nah I like both tanks and mecha, I just don't take anime as facts.
--- 251330063
>>251327809
What is that gif meant to show? How large and cumbersome mechas are?
--- 251332125
>>251254103
>Tanks don't work where you have another land mass only 4 nautical miles over your head that can fire directly onto your deck
How do bi-pedal designs handle that better?
--- 251332203
>>251332125
I dunno, I just want to see zakus using tanks as skateboards now.
--- 251332690
>>251332203
I can't lie, that would be sick.
--- 251333338
>>251263473
Absolutely based Big O appreciator. Only downside is that once you finish it, there's not much else like it.
--- 251333674
The OYW was something that nobody, absolutely nobody properly prepared for, and countless people died for the idiocy, nearsightedness and greed of a select few. And every war after that was much the same way.
I mean, could the Federation probably made tanks that could do most of the bullshit that Zaku IIs did? Definitely, but they didn't because #1 the space fleet was supposed to end it all and #2 once the fleets were gone and the fighting shifted to Earth, everything was going into producing the brand new MS army and prototypes as well as another cruiser fleet. The MS could be retrofitted into fighting in space against other MS, the tanks not so easily, especially not when most of them were in action.
This left the regular army to use up stockpiles of existing weapons, giving ground and bleeding Zeon on while suffering horrendous casualties themselves.
>>251311895
It was a different time in a lot of ways. Not the least of it was how fast everything was shifting. People wanted to see more and more of what was behind the veil of mystery of the universe, in a way they could understand.
--- 251333966
>>251320070
>no backblast
--- 251334145
>>251333966
>no rain of hot sharp debris coming directly down to cut him up
--- 251336027
>>251333674
>People wanted to see more and more of what was behind the veil of mystery of the universe
Man, things are so different nowadays. That kind of general optimism has become rare.
--- 251336061
>>251336027
Blame science for saying that traveling to another star system is practically impossible within a lifetime unless we find out how to do FTL.
--- 251336182
>>251253076 (OP)
Minovsky particles you absolute faggot
--- 251336332
>>251304775
There is no location for ammo feeder presentt heir; the connector to the ball is an "Up/down" positioner. Ergo, all of its ammo either is being teleported in or being contained in the backend of the gun.
A turret on a tank is connected to a large circular part for a reason, both for armoring the inner workings of the loader and for their to be a spot to store and transition ammunition.

This gun would only work if there was another mobile suit sided person behind it to load ammo into it after each shot; Like I said, the gun design looks like they just grabbed a regular humanoid manned canon and welded it on top.

Additionally, by putting the gun on the top, the momentum from it is going to spin it all over the place with each spot as you've essentially attached a circular facing thruster on it. You should put the weapons either on the front (So at least when the momentum moves the mech in space it just moves backwards and does so in a way that doesn't disorient the pilot and break targeting) or use (As stated before) missiles who could detach from the mech.

With that design, mounting missiles on it would have been the way to go anyways pre-beam weaponry, not some old ass artillery piece.
--- 251336399
>>251323982
there should have been more girl pilots.

Fuck, make them all girl pilots and give some bullshit about Y chromosomes messing with the interface.
--- 251336441
>>251336027
Optimism or Naivety? We know the solar system to be barren and empty and the horizons beyond unreachable. Even the space race itself was just a public facade for the further development of ICBMs
--- 251336467
>>251326854
>tank stands still to fight
>Does not accelerate backwards
>Are a stationary dumb object rather than a constantly on the move (And thus harder to hit) component of combined arms warfare

Ah, I see you went to "Retard school of tank usage"
Tanks are not meant to be invulnerable super weapons, and everyone that has tried to use them that way (looking at you turkey) gets them blown the fuck up. They are a component of a larger organism of armed forces, there to suppliment infantry, and will get royally fucked up if air superiority or artillery exists.
They will also die like flies to literal infantry with anti-armor weaponry if not supported, as Russia has demonstrated to the world.
--- 251336913
>>251258109
>>251258436
Did you even see the fire rate and the mobility of the Zaku's

tank is a joke compared to Zaku
--- 251337301
>>251336913
In a universe where the Zaku machine gun can spew out 120mm shells so fast, they would have the technology for the tank cannon to have a much higher rate of fire.
--- 251337383
Weren't the tanks in Gundam just 20th century museum pieces that the Earth Federation had to pull out and throw at the 21st century Zeon mobile suits? 
I would guess a 21st century tank that the federation creates would just be using those beam guns.
--- 251338984
>>251337301
This.
--- 251339261
>>251333966
wait until you see the part where he dodges a 120mm round pointblank and somehow ignores the gas expansion
--- 251339322
The thing about Zaku machine gun is that it's ammo are WW2 tier and shouldn't even be able to penetrate frontal armor of modern MBTs we have today.
--- 251339359
>>251339322
Compared their case length to the British 105mm shells.
--- 251339584
>>251339322
Imagine getting hit by 100 of these though
--- 251339753
>>251339584
Then you're fucked. Remember, see first and shoot first.
--- 251340126
>>251337383
The EF type 61 tank was introduced about 20 years before the One Year War, and it was supposedly the ultimate tank at it's introduction. Not sure what it was meant to fight against, so the ultimate part might be attributed to the fact that it was the only tank at the time?
--- 251340158
>>251253403
A weapon to surpass Metal Gear.
--- 251340425
>>251339322
The Zaku is too sci-fi in regards to weight and dimensions (70 tons). It doesn't make sense it can just store and shoot 105mm like that. A 105mm gun is already fuck huge (pic rel) and this tank is 40tons and can only carry 55 105mm rounds.

With similar sci-fi tech tank that would fit in the universe would be able to shoot 18" naval guns and 105mm sub armament machinegun.
--- 251340597
>>251340425
>It doesn't make sense it can just store and shoot 105mm like that.
Yeah, the Degtyaryov machine gun has similar pan magazine like the Zaku MG and it can only hold 4 rounds of 7.62×54mmR.
--- 251340616
>>251340597
*47 rounds
--- 251340817
>>251336441
>We know the solar system to be barren
It breaks up the doom and gloom angle you're going for, but we know our system to be anything but barren. Every new probe we send finds water or organics in a place we thought there could be none.
--- 251340904
>>251253076 (OP)
No one posted this already?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4b-haPATmI [Embed]
--- 251340938
>>251253076 (OP)
Mechs are design as all purpose space vehicles. That they function at all on the ground is a bonus.

It's like having a car that is also a boat.
--- 251340962
>>251340904
See >>251327507 >>251336467
--- 251340990
>>251253076 (OP)
It probably would be, it's just not as cool.
Mecha, like most sci-fi, sacrifices some degree of realism for cool shit.
--- 251341024
Battletech has a good balance betwee mechs and tanks in my opinion. Tanks are basically defensive weapons, while battlemechs are mostly offensive ones. Tanks can take down mechs, and the other way. But mechs are used for assaults because they are easier to transport due to in-universe space travel.
--- 251341035
>>251340938
>It's like having a car that is also a boat.
That aside, having various specialized combat vehicles that can compliment each other is consider better than having one type of jack of all trade
--- 251341045
>>251333966
It's not a recoilless rifle, you can see he's adsorbing some of the force of the shot. Looks like it's something designed for urban warfare, so you can fire it in a confined space without cooking yourself. Just enough of a kick out of the tube to get the projectile clear before its motor kicks in.
Additionally, it looks cool.
--- 251342471
>>251341024
Didn't Battletech copy a lot of their designs from Japanese Mechas?
--- 251342546
>>251341035
That really depends on the situation. The logistics of fielding an all specialist force quickly spirals out of control. Fielding jack-of-all-trades and multi-role vehicles for skirmishing and territorial posturing is much more efficient, and you'll be doing a lot of those two as your enemy tests your defenses and vice verse.
--- 251343198
>>251342471
Nitpicking, but they paid to use the designs. A lot of them came from Dougram and Macross.
--- 251343280
>>251343198
>but they paid to use the designs
Ok, that's fair.
--- 251343534
>>251296406
>This begs the question of why the gundam itself isn't getting superfried, since the particles distribution should be much, much larger at "ground zero" of the reactor than outside the mech itself.
if plot particles are based on muons and fuck up any kind of electronics then mechs would be swish cheese on an atomic level. So I guess the specific kind of shielding for the reactors they use are capable of preventing penetrations but arent capable of shielding a large area
--- 251343976
>>251341024
Why are they easier to transport compared to tanks?
--- 251345631
>>251340938
>That they function at all on the ground is a bonus
But then should get BTFO by any dedicated ground vehicle.
--- 251346621
Drones are better anyway.
--- 251346958
>>251346621
Yeah, Unmanned combat aerial vehicle, unmanned ground vehicles, unmanned surface vehicle.
Everything will be unmanned in the future.
--- 251347170
>>251254010
>The only thing worth fighting for in space is taking the colonies as functional, operating units with their workers,
Destroying your opponents' colonies and colonists denies your enemy the colonies' resources.
--- 251348952
>>251347170
Then you don't really need any kind of multipurpose attack vehicle, though. Only missiles, or gigantic beam cannons.
--- 251349081
>>251346621
Nice quints.
--- 251349790
>>251339322
>>251339359
You know, the propellant could be different, and thus throw off any length based comparison. If anything it should be different because Zeon's resource structure is completely different.
--- 251351833
>>251342546
defensive vehicles for defense, all-terrain vehicles for attack
--- 251353062
>>251340597
>it can only hold 4 rounds of 7.62×54mmR
I kek'd.
--- 251353696
We need to develop mobile weapons for future battles
--- 251354810
>>251253403
>the chad-gup fan vs. the virgin gundam-fag
--- 251355457
>>251353696
Why? Would you really want to field /a/ designs for lunar vehicles in a real fight? What's wrong with just spamming guided missiles?
--- 251355570
>>251343976
Something about tonnage and how many weapons you can put on a murder machine
--- 251355605
>>251353696
--- 251358716
>>251355570
Oh, right. It's the artificial muscle which power the mechs. They are much stronger for a given size compared to turreted vehicle with wheels/tracks.
--- 251359358
>>251339261
Ultra instinct moment.
--- 251361608
>>251359358
>Ultra instinct moment
There was another like that but with a Gundam dodging saber stabs.
--- 251363044
>>251353696
Against whom?
--- 251363997
>>251363044
Moon people, which is anyone that wants to set up shop on the moon, which is us, as soon as we get there, comma.
--- 251365570
>>251363997
>become moon people or fight moon people
The future looks bright.
--- 251367704
>>251308366
Make you happy.
--- 251367902
>>251367704
:(
--- 251368551
>>251367704
But they can make viable giant robots and giant robots can make me happy.
--- 251368829
>>251302543
The amount of redesigning that a tank would have to go through to be able to fight in such locations would make them distinctly not a tank.
--- 251369171
>>251253076 (OP)
>Camper Tanks kill Noob Zaku Pilot
Wow! Such Kill! Much Skill!
Anyway, Zaku Pilot reported
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>>251369171
Kek.
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>>251268785
As the one who posted it, i didn't think it would be problematic or off topic.
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>>251332203
What about zaku's riding on the shoulders of rx-75 guntanks?
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>>251370874
Are you new around here? Wojaks and frogs are not allowed on /a/, don't post it again.
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>>251371788
>Wojaks and frogs are not allowed on /a/,
Ah i see. I'll keep that mind. Thank you.
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>>251255670
Thanks to Minovsky particles making a lot of electronic tracking systems useless, navigating a ship in combat has to be done by hand. A sphere with thrusters on each side sounds efficient until a pilot is trying to fight and fly in one while manually rotating the ship and working with/against/around inertia with no instruments other than camera feeds. Battles would be like fleets of pilots playing QWOP while trying to kill each other.

The humanoid form means a pilot can intuitively orient and navigate a mech and maintain a better sense of spacial awareness. It also saves a lot of fuel. The psycommu interface makes this system the fastest navigating method in zero G by miles. Once you get the limbs on the machine it becomes 100x more effective in combat than the usual "just put the essentials in a flying box" and at that point you may as well add hands so it can interface with weapons made to a universal standard. 

So yeah. Mobile suits in universe started as a machine of practicality and quickly jumped into the rule of cool .
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>>251332203
Reminds me a little.
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>>251372062
>Pilot gets disoriented and can't aim their weapons when they move around
You do know that's why real life war machines have crews, right? Instead of having one single pilot trying to avoid getting disoriented, you have one manning the piloting while the others actually man the weapons and focus on aiming/firing them so the pilot/driver is free to focus on driving.

And this holds true EVEN IN UNIVERSE. The battle of torrington: You have planes dedicated SOLELY to flying around carrying mobiles suits who's sole purpose is to hold and fire giant long range guns.
You have LITERALLY put in a middle man of having a giant ass cargo bay to hold a giant ass mobile suit to hold a giant ass gun, drastically increasing the size and target of your plane, when you could have just built a long range bomber/jet with particle cannons on it manned by gunners to fire the particle cannon like your mobile suit.
its almost hilarious how wasteful it is when you break down how much extra would have to go into the engineering design of making the setup work compared to a normal one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIVVAsMTP1A [Embed]
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>mecha
lol
>tanks
yikes

Objects are the superior war weapons and they come in variety of types as well,
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>>251253076 (OP)
Another retard who doesn't understand the concept "rule of cool" thinking how smart he is for pointing this out when we already know and don't give two shits.
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>>251371841
It's a damn shame you didn't get fucking banned. Tired of seeing two 13 year old memes long wear out their welcome. It god old by fucking 2012.
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>>251253076 (OP)
In a realistic sense? Morale.
Humans better identify with humans, having something with a humanoid shape gives humans a boost in morale because they see a "human" flying in to save them.

With the firepower of the future, considering current trends, there's not really any need for better direct combat weapons. Everything is done from miles away or with drones, using direct combat machines like tanks or mechs is used for very specific situations and are more just for holding ground and delivering firepower from range, so efficiency isn't a huge deal. 

Rather than mechas being unrealistic because they're humanoid, its unrealistic because why are we still in direct combat instead of shooting each other from 50000 miles away?
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BTW was there anything special about the Zaku? Or is it just a standard / mediocre mobile suit that became iconic due to mass exposure?

Also, was there a tech imbalance between Zion and Earth?
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>>251374217
That these guys had VR goggles instead on some 360 monitor is a detail I really liked.
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>>251376731
Dunno, all zeon suits are ugly as sin.
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>>251376731
They are just the mass produced grunt soldiers of the early wars.
Unicorn has zaku as museum pieces.
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>>251254633
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>>251376731
zaku's were 'special' in that they hit the sweet spot between performance and affordability that made them perfect for mass production in a post-minovsky particle world. while gundamns technically rendered them obsolete it took a good few years for mass production of gundams to actually be feasible enough to phase out zaku's and other normaltype mobile suits. like the whole mission of white base is to distract zeon with a merry goose chase all around the solar system using their three gundams as bait while earth manufacturers build as many gundams on short notice as they could without zeon noticing

and it wasn't so much a tech imbalance as logistics warfare (i.e fighting for control of mining bases and shit, stealing supply shipments from each other yada yada) plus the pendulum of the arms race happening to swing in zeon's favor for that period of time. the gundam was specifically built to be an anti-zaku fighter, being impervious to the caliber of rounds zaku's used thanks to recent space age mettalurgy advances made by Earth forces for that exact goal of inventing something zaku-proof. I think it's mentioned somewhere that between the time and resource costs, not even factoring in the RnD costs needed to invent it in the first place, one gundam 'costs' the same as like 50 normal mobile suits. So each one needs to shoot down at least 50 zaku's to break even, so to speak. which is kinda crazy when you think that it only takes 5 confirmed kills/victories to be recognized as an ace pilot. hence why they were also researching if newtypes were real or not because even if its basically bulletproof that does you no good if the enemy can just dogpile the thing, pin it, and drag it back to base for themselves
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>>251255912
The power source was basically just fucking napalm, wasn't it?
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>>251253403
The Mach-5 if he tank
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>>251253076 (OP)
Mobile suits are primarily intended for space use and were built as a fighter replacement, since they excelled in one field no craft of their size could otherwise, and that's taking down battleships. Most mobile suits are equipped with some kind of melee weapon intended for hacking apart enemy battleships, while also being nimble enough to easily avoid battleship fire in the claustrophobic environments forced by minosvky partials, the first major battle they were deployed in they basically tore apart the entire enemy fleet as they focused on the main assumed form of battle, of battleship to battleship and had no real way of dealing with mobile suits. After this pathetic lose to modified mining gear the Federation was shell shocked into developing their own equivalent to fight back. Historically land use only mobile suits kinda sucked with the 2 forms actually putting in work being the aquatic and the space-based ones, both environments where the advantages of a mobile suit would shine over other more conventionally shaped light craft. The reason for why then end up being the major vehicle even in land-based conflicts is due to an all-in development philosophy on both sides after the start of the war. 

TLDR. Mobiles suits fucked battleships harder than any other options the setting had and hugely one sided first battle of the war this caused called everyone to focus on them despite the main prey of a mobile suit being mostly abandoned.
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>>251378958
I don't remember seeing them talk about fuel. Though I've only watched the original run, haven't started with the OVAs yet.
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>>251301966
>its also true that the costs of putting out new impractical mech suits is the more important reason they lost
Are Zakus included in that?
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>>251376731
>Here comes the Red Zaku, Three times faster than (You)
First, people liked the ruthless design
Second, the charismatic villain Char uses it for a long time
Third, become a staple in Gundam Universe that an experienced pilot (like Char) using a grunt MS (like Zaku) can "defeat" a state-of-the-art war machine (like Gundam)
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>>251375948
>heavier than an aircraft carrier
>can move at 500km/h
>all terrain
>immune to nuke
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>>251375948
I still feel cheated with how the first two eps set the premise up as asymmetrical warfare with this two mostly lucky yahoos being forced to solid snake their way into taking down Objects and their high command mostly hoping they'll die because it upsets the proxy battle status quo and threatens a return of conventional warfare, only for them to get delegated to supporting their own factions Object outside of like one other mini arc
I admit I'm judging it against what I wanted it to be instead of for what it was but I'm still chuffed about it
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>>251385688
Would you recommend it still?
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>>251386354
probably. I'd be lying if I said I could actually set aside my own biases, but if I pretend I'm being objective for a minute then a lot of the object vs object matchups had some pretty good interplay of minmaxing vs taking advantage of the battlefield and circumstance that's almost reminiscent of a yugioh duel, and the two male leads were pretty compelling characters. I didn't like how the pilot of their nation's object was a military brat that didn't feel like she'd ever undergone boot camp but I'd also admittedly checked out for the second half so maybe she got character development that I just didn't pay attention to
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>>251387651
That second bit is definitely a turn off. Is she very prominent?
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I watched the first movie and I kind of feel I should have just watched the show instead, is there some sort of compilation of everything the show cuts out?
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>>251388346
Movie cuts out I mean
--- 251389297
Some form of exosuits with heavy weaponry will make sense in space-to-planet battles. Giant robots are just cool but useless wastes of budget.
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>>251260864
Want realism? Gundam will sink to the knees with every step at best on solid ground.
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>>251253076 (OP)
Aren't the mechs in Gundam orignally just advanced space suits used for working in space? They didn't decide one day to just make mechs. They said "hey we can give this space utility vehicle a tank rifle"
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>>251389516
>what is heavy fucking machinery still on land
They will only collapse on non hard surfaces.
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>>251253076 (OP)
Because
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>>251391717
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>>251391031
Heavy machinery uses huge ass tracks to lessen pressure on the ground. Your bipedal robots will shift their entire weight on 1 fucking leg for walking.
--- 251392276
Harhaways flash was a really solid movie. Sold me on gundam
https://youtu.be/rfKXQtxqtcA [Embed]
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>>251391031
>>251391987
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>>251393701
Based 
Niggers are pussies 
We can build giant shit already
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>>251253076 (OP)
Tank fags shut up
>>251253403
I concede, but why is the mech using an insect glaive without the bug?
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>>251254327
Eureka seven, macross, macross seven, Gundam 00, gundam 0079, Break Blade, Metal Armor Dragonar, Panzer World Galient, Dourgram
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>>251394086
BAGGER 288!
BAGGER 288!
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>>251394086
wtf is that real?
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>>251396556
Yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288
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>>251394683
Ancient meme.
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>>251273356
Pajeet-san I kneel.
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>>251394300
Thanks for the list.
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Earth is Love
Earth is Life
Total Spacian Death
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>>251253076 (OP)
Suits are the future. At one point planes were used for nothing more than recon and pilots carried small arms with them but everyone kept developing them because they had potential. Mobile suits are the same way, yeah Zakus are expendable trash but keep working on the concept and you’ll eventually get an autist in a wunderwaffe that can solo an entire army.
>but why not just do more r&d until you get it right then produce a suit
Because you need a ton of experience to see how things play out. Just like in WW2 where different countries had radically different ideas of how tanks should be used and all of the theories were put to the test and mostly proven wrong as things progressed. If there hasn’t been a big conflict where tanks were heavily used nobody would have just lucked out on the idea of a modern MBT. It took tons of different vehicles being thrown into combat before people figured out what works and what doesn’t. If you went back to the late 40’s Soviet Union and told them to just scrap all of their future heavy tank and tank destroyer projects and go all in on the t-44/t-54 they’d laugh you out of the room, if you just kept develop the medium tank it will eventually obsolete all of your tank destroyers and heavy tank projects get out of here with that nonsense.
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>>251403024
Why bother with suits when you can field drone swarms?
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>>251404639
Feddies and Zeeks don't like the idea of one operator having access to the Power.
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>>251404812
Keep the operator surrounded by guards that will shoot them if they turn rogue, then the ace drone pilots can be multiple times more effective since they don't die if they lose anymore.
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>>251405222
But what if the Ace Drone Pilot decides to kill the guards with his Ace Piloted Drones, what then? He can't be found, can't be controlled, doesn't need a huge MS base to maintain and prepare his suit, cannot be beaten
Not acceptable to the suits
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>>251404639
You'd have to scale down AI. If there's an operator you can drown them out with jamming signals.
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I personally like Patlabor and Code Geass mechs
Patlabor mechs are mostly used for construction and police robots only look cool because theyre meant to
Code Geass knightmares are FAST and can do crazy acrobatics in urban areas which is the terrain britannia was dealing with considering their colonialism of first world nations

Mobile suits are TOO slow without their boosters and are way too tall
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>>251409275
Smaller mechs like what >>251389297 brought up is probably the best without bringing magic or dangerous nuclear reactors into the mix.
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>>251409599
making them too small just makes them powersuits and you need something really small to power that
I feel like the 5-8m scale you see in Patlabor and Code Geass is just ideal for something that can have a normal sized engine but also not be fucking massive
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>>251405335
What if the Ace Drone Pilot was a suit?
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>>251412293
explain further
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>>251412293
Then that's just the cost of politics.
One man, one solar system, one will.
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>>251253076 (OP)
Mechs make more sense if an antigrav tech is available in the relevant universe. Impulse drive would be the ideal choice, allowing for dynamic movement. Mechs would also still make sense if inertial dampners reduced their mass to near zero.
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>>251276094
I could have sworn that laser comms were used short range between mobile suit units or pilots in a scene or two.
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While the RB's were, cost for cost, one of the most effective weapons during the OYW against Zeon MS and used heavily, they were also horrible for morale and for good reason 
Nobody ever said that war is a efficient way of using resources
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>>251413412
>the RB's
Which are those?
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>>251412557
>One man, one solar system, one will
Overman.
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>>251415473
Balls
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>>251305963
It's supposed to fit in the core fighter, that's how the reactors are.
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>>251253076 (OP)
All decent mecha series have explanations why mechas make sense in setting. 

FMP had Lambda Driver. Gundam had Minovsky shit. Code Geass has Sakuradite. 

Yes normal big robot using normal tech would be trash compared to tanks or planes.
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>>251412605
Some of the first posters explained it, but robots in Gundam are for space shit. Not for land combat. They're very slow on land but as a real life analogue, shit happens.
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>>251417896
Gundam also has magic fusion reactors that allow hovering mechas.