jp/43083773.txt

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--- 43083773
>canon flan: sassy, sarcastic, prideful, yet excitable little brat
>fanon flan: psychotic mass murderer or literal toddler
Will we ever be freed from garbage fanon depiction, bros?
--- 43084235
Fandom: gfs
Canon: gfs
--- 43084251
Fanon: gfs
Canon : gfs
--- 43084260
>>43084235
>>43084251
What the hell does this have to do with Final Fantasy 8?
--- 43084267
Canon Satori is soulfull
--- 43084814
>>43083773 (OP)
>Will we ever be freed from garbage fanon depiction, bros?

No.
--- 43085673
>>43084235
Kill yourself yuriniggertrannycuck.
--- 43088704
>>43084814
Grim
--- 43089522
>>43083773 (OP)
canon flan needs correction
--- 43090732
>>43084251
Alice HATES Marisa!
--- 43090733
>>43084267
Smug Satori is fun!
--- 43090845
>>43083773 (OP)
Remember when we thought Yukari was the biggest deal around and that everyone was terrified of her? Nowadays nobody respect or fears her.
--- 43091541
>>43090845
>everyone was terrified of her?
Everyone thinks her as an annoying youkai that speaks in riddle and show up when no one ask
--- 43091687
>>43083773 (OP)
It was funny seeing plebs get mad/boggled at CDS when Flan was already established as this way back in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red. Tragically many fandoms are full of illiterates.
--- 43091933
>>43083773 (OP)
Flan in canon is definitely also psychotic. Don't forget that in this very same manga she happily strangles Meiling.
--- 43091951
>>43083773 (OP)
>>43091687
>>43091933
--- 43091959
>>43084235
canon is "they seem to have never even verifiably met" (can't be proven "the fairy with Cirno sometimes" has been her)
--- 43092017
>>43091959
Printworks shows they hang out. Notably thr fairy manga
--- 43092028
>>43091951
>>43091933
Meiling is a youkai who wouldn't die from something like that so its no different from punching your friend in the arm. Especially considering Flan has more than enough strength to crush her neck like a grape
--- 43092057
>>43092017
again, can't be proven

As in, when she's brought up in stuff like Who's Who of Gensokyo a relationship between her and Cirno is not mentioned https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Who%27s_Who_of_Humans_%26_Youkai_in_Gensokyo/Daiyousei,_Koakuma_and_Lily_White despite this being the place to mention it. This is worth keeping in mind since ZUN is infamously loose with allowing artist interpretation of "nameless extra characters in scenes". As a result, you get stuff like Lily White and Lily Black in the same scene in manga despite that being impossible (same character).

I just mention this since Cirno has more of a relationship (confirmed) with the three fairies of light and Clownpiece. "Daiyousei" has never been legitimately confirmed to have any ties with her beyond also hanging around Misty Lake.
--- 43092075
>>43092028
She was definitely trying to kill her was was disappointed Meiling hadn't turned out to be actually evil
--- 43092096
>>43090845
I've mentioned this before in discussions but this was unironically always the case. As far back as PMiSS, Yukari has been talking up her capabilities and literally creating propaganda to seem more incredible than she actually is. In every work she appears in, Yukari is thwarted, beaten, or shown to be weaker than somebody else. In one work, she even runs away before a powerful person (Eiki) can show up.
--- 43092116
>>43091933
>she happily strangles Meiling
That's not psychotic though, it's just that she's asserting her dominance to the perceived enemy that dares to directly attacked her house and she's immediately backed down when she's got told that Meiling was only possessed
The entire 17.5 storyline is literally about her defeating her opponent non-lethally (except for Yuuma obviously) and even put down Okuu's suggestion for another round of fight, so it's clear that she has self-restraint in both of her power and mindset unlike the bajillion "haha funny flan genocide" depiction of her
--- 43092140
>>43091959
>>43092057
Dude, Cirno first met the Three Fairies when she was playing hide and seek with Daiyousei
--- 43092144
>>43092140
You can't read.

When she was playing hide and seek with "a fairy". This has never been confirmed to be Daiyousei.
--- 43092158
>>43092116
I think this is just frivolously underselling it.

The fact is, Flandre is comfortable with the idea of killing others and ought to be. She is literally a monster that by nature kills others. This is why she laughs at the idea of killing someone she's known for a long time, why Remilia is also unfazed by it as well as Patchouli (both also monsters), and why she literally kills Yuuma in 17.5, that wasn't play, she obliterated Yuuma Yuuma just respawned.

To me, I think it should generally be remembered that most of the touhou characters aren't humans and shouldn't be thought of with human standards.
--- 43092270
>>43092158
I mean no shit, but even by youkai standards there are still a lot of other youkai more "monstrous" than her like Kisume or Murasa
--- 43092280
>>43092158
She is quite restrain consider that she can treat absolutely anyone like a video game mobs.
--- 43092363
>>43092158
>she literally kills Yuuma in 17.5, that wasn't play, she obliterated Yuuma Yuuma just respawned
Reimu was alarmed when Kanako told her that the oil leak is a massive fire hazard that could burn the entire Gensokyo, so it's pretty safe to assume that Okina also told Flan the same. Hell, that's why Okina even engineered the oil leaks incident in the first place, it's to convince Flan that she's the last resort when no one were able to safely "exterminates" her like usual
--- 43092929
>>43092144
Even if you're believe that the fairy isn't Daiyousei, the Visionary manga clearly shows she and Cirno together in the front of Cirno's house and with few other cameos of them together from print work, she's definitely a close friend of Cirno
Also Cirno and Three Fairy isn't that close actually, Cirno only found out they moved into a tree near Reimu's place months after the fact, which implied that they rarely meet each other
--- 43093023
>>43092929
These are fairies we are talking about.
there is a non-zero chance that Cirno was told multiple times, and simply forgot because baka.
--- 43093209
>>43083773 (OP)
--- 43093231
>>43092363
She only ever explains that she wants to beat up some strong chick in her scenario and says she isn't a hero of justice

>>43092929
Again, you're not getting what I said even though I already said it: you can't take art details like that too strongly, especially when supplemental print works like Who's Who of Gensokyo do not corroborate it and maintain no connection between them.
--- 43093365
>>43093231
Cirno fights Daiyousei in GFW, doesn't she?
--- 43093413
>>43091687
It reminds me of when some Anons got upset because in CDS Mokou said that she sometimes goes for a walk with Kaguya when this had already been confirmed in BAiJR when the two caused a fire by smoking.
--- 43093416
>>43093365
Yes, she also showed up in the Three Fairy manga when Clownpiece gathered all the fairies available so they can attack Okina. It's also where her only line of dialogue is found from what I remember too. 
Dai does hang out with the named fairy characters in series.
--- 43093437
>>43093413
It's like coke and pepsi all over again.
--- 43093445
>>43093413
Anon, they were fighting and the forest caught fire because of Mokou. Mokou claiming afterwards that the fire started because of a cigarette was just her lying to Aya.
--- 43093461
>>43091959
>>43092057
>>43092144
--- 43093480
>>43091959
>>43092144
anon! It has already been confirmed that the great fairies have different designs. But the great fairy that accompanies Cirno is always the same. she always has a side ponytail and the features of what we know as Daiyousei.
your argument is as silly as saying that Aya doesn't exist because all tengus look the same and therefore we don't know if the Aya that always appears is the same or is another tengu that looks like her.
--- 43093526
>>43092116
Flandre got a kick out of the idea that Patcholi was murdered, and even congratulated Sakuya for finally indulging in the passion of killing when everyone suspected her.
Flandre is pretty psychotic, but she is a evil monster, so it's not that hard to believe.
--- 43093534
>>43093480
This
It's clearly Dai chan, but he keeps using the plausible deniability of the topic to deny her obvious existence and relationship with Cirno.
--- 43093544
>>43093480
>the great fairy that accompanies Cirno is always the same
this is actually untrue, because the fairy here >>43092140 has different wings from the fairy here >>43092929 despite having the same artist. I already said, also, that this isn't about visuals because in comic art there are decisions left to the artist which may contradict canon. This happens from ZUN being lax, like "Lily Black" being a separate entity from "Lily White". Therefore, you need an extra piece of evidence to confirm that Cirno and "Daiyousei" are friends. This would be in a print work or from ZUN. However, print works maintain no relationship between them, and ZUN insists on a very different interpretation of her character from fanon (mischievous and playful, not demure)
--- 43093560
>>43093461
That's not canon. As far as ZUN is concerned he cared so little about Daiyousei he never bothered giving her a name so his fans did it for him.
--- 43093575
>>43093534
It's not about plausible deniability; other characters literally don't have all these caveats and "hey what ifs" and speculations. ZUN has even confirmed that Koakuma is an (evidently rare) assistant to Patchouli, however for Daiyousei there's nothing. He doesn't say they're buddies, doesn't have them speak to or of each other, and in the one actual profile we have for her Daiyousei and Cirno are not mentioned as being friends.

>>43093560
Essentially this.

It's why she has no name and he ignores most questions about her.
--- 43093583
>>43093365
yes

in all of daiyousei's "this is definitely daiyousei, make no mistake" appearances, she is causing mischief or fighting protagonists
--- 43093614
>>43093575
As much as I disagree with the first point, the second is 100% true
Remember he forgot what Dai even looked like, and that's how we got lemontene
--- 43093624
>>43093544
While I kind of agree, but ZUN has allowed Dai and Cirno to hang out constantly in the Whale manga. He could have easily stopped it after the first panel was printed, but the pairing continued to be shown.
We know it's Dai because the design has been consistent.
--- 43093652
>>43093544
>like "Lily Black" being a separate entity from "Lily White"
I don't remember where, but I think I read that there is more than just one Lily White. This would explain why you constantly fight with a white Lily in PoFV. I can't confirm it because I don't remember where I read it, but this would make it plausible to see a Lily White and a Lily Black together.
--- 43093694
>>43093231
I'm not saying Flan wants to destroy Yuuma to resolve the incident, I'm just saying that Flan wants to destroy Yuuma because NO ONE can't beat her to resolve the incident
--- 43093743
>>43093624
he can but he's also on record as saying he leaves the art to artists, to the point that him explicitly calling something out is extremely rare (I literally can only think of him telling Azmaya that Okina should not be a loli). Artists have also historically been quite transparent about ZUN being loose af

For me, I would need a hard confirm. Otherwise at best I can see them as being on friendly terms, but evidently not particularly close. Keep in mind that Cirno is a rather ordinary fairy in personality, which means she mostly keeps to herself (huge number of examples of this in canon). It's noted that the three fairies of light are weird as hell for living together and always hanging out, and of course Clownpiece is COMPLETELY weird. As for Cirno, she is standard fairy fair of bouncing from here to there and rarely forming deep connections. Allegedly, Daiyousei is the same as an ordinary fairy in personality, according to ZUN.

>>43093652
Unfortunately I can't find a 100% primary source so here's pixiv dictionary's explanation for you since touhouwiki's is just the same https://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E3%83%AA%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF
On Karen Radio, August 21 of 2010, ZUN confirmed in an interview that Lily White is just cosplaying as Eiki in PoFV. That's why she has black clothing. "Lily Black" does not exist.

Now that's that, but the other primary source is this https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Who%27s_Who_of_Humans_%26_Youkai_in_Gensokyo/Lily_White_(Black)
which is an official work that I linked to earlier for Daiyousei stuff. It also confirms, Lily White is cosplaying.
--- 43093754
>>43093743
>Karen Radio
Kare* Radio, August 21 2010
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>>43093560
what is not canon? the other two Daiyousei?
--- 43093780
>>43093526
...no? Flan knew that Patchouli wasn't dead and only teased Sakuya for her "crime"
Beside Flan only attacked Meiling because of powerful "malice" she had when got possessed by Mizuchi anyway
--- 43093792
>>43093770
Lost Word isn't canon, dude
--- 43093814
>>43093770
>>43093792
I'll add to anon's statement to say that "as Lost Word isn't canon, these fairies casually being together isn't canon" which is worth mentioning. The end of VFiS was outright an incident where fairies all gathered for one purpose. A truly exceptional moment in history, not joking. They usually only "gather" to cause a ruckus when a strong youkai is nearby (AKA the game stages)
--- 43093872
>>43093560
>>43093575
>>43093743
What kind of mental gymnastics is this?
In canon works, almost all of Dai's appearance have Cirno nearby, so she's clearly close with Cirno
>but muh ZUN
Unless he's specifically said anything about it, who give a damn. This is like saying adult-sized fairy maid are actually a lie because ZUN never confirmed it directly even after appearing in multiple manga
--- 43093897
>>43093872
No gymnastics bro; just asking for literally 1 single hard confirmation that they are "friends" despite Cirno not even consistently having friends in all canon works.

Point to the one thing that confirms it.
--- 43093920
>>43093872
The point is that there's literally an open chance to point out their relationship in 3 separate profiles (Daiyousei, Cirno, and Cirno (tan)) in a work that compiles information on characters + their relationships and in every single profile they are not connected despite allegedly being friends.

They're friends but you can't say they're friends? What about Wakasagihime and Kagerou? Momiji and the kappa? Kyouko and Mystia? It wouldn't be hard to have one line saying "she is friends with Cirno" but that doesn't exist
--- 43093948
>>43093792
>>43093814
You're attacking a straw man then. my point was "there are many Daiyousei with different designs". At no time did I say anything about the lost world or if the three Daiyouseis are friends.
--- 43093973
>>43093948
not really, I was just chiming in since it seemed part of the conversation

As for different designs, I honestly just think Hirasaka got the wing design wrong in her first manga appearance and corrected it later. I think Hirasaka indeed headcanons the two as friends (I think they're together usually in his doujins too but I'm not sure--he mostly focuses on the fairy trio instead because he likes them more). I don't think ZUN cares.
--- 43093987
>>43093897
>>43093920
Occam Razor, anon
If anything, can (You) explain why Dai always have Cirno nearby when she's appeared in canon if they're not friends?
--- 43094004
>>43093987
Can you explain why Cirno never utters a single mention of Daiyousei in any of her many, many, MANY, *MANY* major character appearances in the series? What sort of friend is that?

This is why I said to you: at best I would accept "they're probably on friendly terms", but they are CLEARLY not good friends. Cirno HAS no "good friends". She barely remembers faces.
--- 43094020
>>43093973
>Hirasaka
It's not just him, even in whaletits both of them appeared side to side selling shit
--- 43094029
>>43094020
It IS a common fan pairing.

>>43094004
on this note she doesn't even speak to her in the one game where they literally directly interact. She says nothing to or of Daiyousei, shoots her in the face, and leaves.
--- 43094039
>>43094004
Maybe Daiyousei is Cirno's friend even if Cirno doesn't think about her or remember her when she isn't around.
--- 43094049
>>43093897
They already told you about the time they played hide and seek. and they have shown you a lot of scenes of the two together and you come out with "that one is not valid because ZUN has not signed a document where he swears on his life that that is Daiyousei"
Is it really necessary that there is some hard proof to confirm that they are friends? I mean, even supposing that what you say is true that ZUN doesn't pay the slightest attention to the manga and lets the artists do what they want, what does that mean that the two always go out together? there are many things that are from the artists and then became official, like Yuugi's clothes.
--- 43094068
>>43094049
>they played hide and seek
prove that it was canonically "daiyousei"

Also no it's not valid because I ACTUALLY proved to you that ZUN doesn't concern himself with background/art details. YOU are speculating, authoritatively ZUN has commented that he leaves this to artists and has denied contradictions before. He has not corroborated a relationship in a series where almost everything is writ and recorded and strictly understood and yet despite this you want to take these elements which are proven frivolous and assign them meaning.
--- 43094087
>>43094049
also you can't explain how they are evidently not friends in all of Cirno's speaking appearances

This is extremely damning to the idea of them being close as they are literally not close. She has only attacked Daiyousei in the one chance they had to actually speak. If anything she's closer to Larva, at least they spoke to one another
--- 43094151
Hey guys did you know that Miyoi actually never existed? ZUN never even directly confirmed her existence and never even shows up in a game before! Her character is actually just a rogue headcanon by Mizutaki!
--- 43094163
>>43094151
Strawmanning is so embarrassing.

Miyoi
>speaking character
>has a name
>has an introductory card
>speaks to many characters in the series

Daiyousei
>
--- 43094168
Is this dude a zoomer? Stop asking to be spoonfed by ZUN and use your brain a little
--- 43094201
>>43094168
>use your brain
You mean read works you seem to have never heard about and understand Cirno's character and actually piece together evidence? Picking up on artist comments, the author's interviews, and mistakes in artwork prior. Quoting things, sourcing things, giving you piles of evidence.

All you've done has been post panels without dialogue in comics. ZUN has precedence to not caring about background details to the point of letting mistakes through, and has directly said he leaves them to artists.

Yet it is brainless to consider that, huh?
--- 43094204
>>43094163
Can you show me one (1) single confirmation that Miyoi exist from ZUN?
--- 43094223
>>43094204
yes

>Scenario: ZUN
--- 43094236
>>43094204
>>43094223
Here is ZUN writing dialogue for the main character of Lotus Eaters: Okunoda Miyoi

As an aside I can't find any dialogue from Daiyousei across the 20+ years of touhou publications written by ZUN. Nothing exists.
--- 43094241
>>43094223
Damn, I wish the Fairy manga have their scenario by ZUN
Thanks anon!
--- 43094247
>>43094241
Please point to any evidence of ZUN writing dialogue for Daiyousei, indicating she is Daiyousei in manga, mentioning it in an interview, anything. I will wait.
--- 43094251
>>43094236
Fairy manga might have her say a single line, I don't remember the chapter number though.
I think she says something to one of those fairy mobs about how strange the situation is.
--- 43094259
>>43094251
In VFiS? It's possible. Several fairies talk in the final few chapters of VFiS. In the "original appearance" she doesn't speak.
--- 43094302
>>43094251
If you want to check, a fairy that looks like Daiyousei first is "introduced" from here https://mangadex.org/chapter/561d5693-70eb-40ee-ba11-59665cfa7190/10 (as in she is in the scene)
--- 43094339
>>43094302
You could make an argument that this "Really?" is either the only word ever officially spoken by Daiyousei or... it's that other nameless fairy in the middle of the panel.
--- 43094400
>>43094068
At this point I already gave up on the debate. there are tons of scenes where they hang out together but for you it's not enough proof, while the simple fact that some artist drew Lily White together with Lily Black at some point for you is 100% accurate and undeniable proof that ZUN let artists do what they want.
at this point it's like arguing with someone who says the earth is flat and doesn't accept any counter argument they give him.
--- 43094445
>>43094400
>while the simple fact that some artist drew Lily White together with Lily Black at some point for you is 100% accurate and undeniable proof that ZUN let artists do what they want.
No, it's him *saying* that he lets artist do the art, anon.

>--In that sense, I get the impression that your and Azuma-san's relationship, in terms of the original work and manga, changed over time too.
>ZUN: The ideal is that I could leave everything up the artist. Of course, while sometimes I need to tell them what to draw, I try not to say too much and just answer questions. If someone asked me "who drew WaHH?" I'd say Azuma-san did, not that I had her draw it for me.

And I have no reason to believe WaHH was his only work where this was his process.

I also don't know how to break it to you, but *he does not care about Daiyousei*. He LOVES Cirno, both EXTREMELY obvious facts. Do you think he'd really, canonically, pair a character he dotes upon to a character he has still never bothered giving even a NAME after over 20 years of works and fan requests? Really. It's not hard to accept. He's even given Koakuma more details than her. She's just a midboss to him, nothing more, solidified in his reusing her in GFW and still not pairing her in any way with Cirno. What more do you want, man? Seriously.
--- 43095352
>>43094445
the issue here is that this contradicts a bonus scene from WaHH where Azuma Aya (using Kasen as an avatar) talks about how ZUN gives him the indications of which characters will appear and with what expressions.
I was looking everywhere but I don't remember in which chapter this appears. The point is that it is clear that if Cirno appears so much with Daiyousei, it is because ZUN specifies it that way.
--- 43095452
>>43093614
>Blonde Daiyousei
I have a theory for this:
>ZUN plays a game where you have to follow a friend's directions and draw something for another friend to guess what it is.
>they ask him to draw Daiyousei
>he draws her with yellow hair
And what if he drew her like this, not because he didn't remember what Daiyousei is like, but to prevent his friend from thinking it was Sanae?
both have green hair, wear blue clothes, and have a side ponytail.
Also, Daiyousei's hair is light green, so if that color wasn't available in the game I don't see it as strange if he decided to use yellow to represent light green.
I mean, he drew her in the blue dress. Isn't that proof that he does remember Daiyousei? the other fairies he draws wear clothes of other colors.
--- 43095801
>>43095452
my brother in christ.
in what world is yellow green?
and what's mroe I remember the translated transcript saying that he forgot what she looked like.
--- 43095993
>>43095352
>The point is that it is clear that if Cirno appears so much with Daiyousei, it is because ZUN specifies it that way.
No, that has no basis. Literally. Please find a basis if you make this claim. As I *just* posted, that is completely contradicted as an idea as he says he rarely specifies. And on that note
>this contradicts a bonus scene from WaHH where Azuma Aya (using Kasen as an avatar) talks about how ZUN gives him the indications of which characters will appear and with what expressions
rarely specifies doesn't mean never. Azmaya was merely talking about ZUN's directions, when he does give them, being vague in that case. She has always said she receives the scenes and the script. ZUN later expounded to say that he tries to avoid giving art details as I just posted
--- 43095997
>>43095993
--- 43096014
>>43095801
yes he forgot, and often forgets, because she's a nameless character he never gave consideration. There is no indication he would care enough to deliberately pair her with Cirno given in every case where we absolutely 100% know he had every say in what happens, strictly, he does not pair them
--- 43096040
>>43095352
Of course he would say what characters who matter do stuff in scenes but if you genuinely think he goes "please feature all 68 of the characters I list here" in background shots you're being disingenuous and silly given we know what he's said, we have examples of him specifying main character actions and dialogue, and he doesn't even have a name for daiyousei anyways nor does he ever deliberately use her. It's simple wishing against reality to assume anything differently.
--- 43096071
>>43095993
this is the scene! thank you so much. I've been looking for hours and can't find it!
--- 43096232
>>43096071
It is Azmaya's omake for volume 3 of WaHH and it's indeed hard to find. When looking on websites, it is not specifically listed as its own "chapter" and is instead nested at the end of "the last chapter of volume 3' (chapter 15). I'm not sure how many of the other omake from Azuma Aya were translated.
--- 43097751
>>43090845
Yukari should cause an incident once in a while
--- 43098926
>>43083773 (OP)
Flandre Unironicaly needs to get her ass kicked hard and humiliated(we finaly could see some better character development) knowing how ZUN treats Yukari who was Thought at the time some Uberpowerfull Queen Bitch of Gensokyo.
Imagine if flan actually get delayed and countered by Unzan of all people, simply because being a sentient cloud gas doest'n give you a point of tension that physical bodies have.
--- 43100327
>>43098926
I will humiliate her...
--- 43100343
>>43100327
Flandre deserves circumcision to decrease her lust
--- 43100344
>>43083773 (OP)
>canon shiki: merciful, wishes people improve themselves and overcome the habits that lead them to sin, doesn't like sending people to hell, NOT A MIDGET.
>fanon shiki: literally the exact opposite.
Not funny, DIDN'T laugh, WILL NEVER laugh.
--- 43100938
>>43100344
This and NEET Kaguya are without a doubt the worst fanon representions in all of Touhou.
--- 43101219
>>43100938
I think Cirno being presented as being uniquely stupid is pretty high up there, too.
--- 43102265
>>43092057
--- 43103109
>>43101219
Cirno is quite stupid in canon (although she has her moments of intelligence).
what is not canon are things like Cirno's mathematics or the Chirumiru Genki
--- 43103143
>>43103109
Cirno is stupid, mentally deficient even, but not more so than any other fairy
In fact, her claim of being the strongest is pretty accurate if you only consider other fairies, as well as being pretty smart in comparison.
Cirno is baka, but a genius compared to the walking lobotomites that are the other fairies.
--- 43103298
>>43103143
Cirno isn't smart by any means, but she isn't any worse off than a typical fairy is, and they can basically be considered to be kids with hyper-ADD. They're easily distracted and don't think too deeply about anything, but they can think when they put their minds to it, which is more than can be said about some other touhous.

Cirno's not even the dumbest person in PoFV, which cemented the idea of her as the . Cirno actually makes a genuine effort to consider Eiki's lecture, while Mystia and Lyrica can't even remember any of it. And the people who push Cirno as the dumb one in the idiot quartet are ridiculous too, given that the other three members are Rumia the tree bumper, Mystia the illiterate, and Wriggle the super retard. Cirno's outright intelligent compared to those three, especially when you consider stuff like Cirno being the first to figure out the culprit behind the fairy crystallization incident.
--- 43103382
>>43100344
I do like her midget form desu
But my favorite description of her is bkub's
--- 43103388
>>43103298
Rumia's just a little slow, and her darkness means she can't see so well
Daughterwife is not that dumb, I swear!
--- 43103425
>>43102265
been over why this is meaningless in other posts in the thread
--- 43103440
Fanon Yuyuko: glutton
Canon Yuyuko: the same thing but ironically level 1 primaries think that it's fanon; afaik every time Yuyuko is given a significant role she's shown to be eating, a lot, or talking about eating. That actually includes PCB
--- 43103457
>>43103440
It's more the fact it isn't her single and primary characteristic.
She's the princess of the netherworld first and foremost, and a big eater second.
Remember; Touhou is a comedy series at heart, and a lot of character traits reflect that.
--- 43103520
>>43103457
It isn't, but a lot of people say it's no characteristic whatsover. Amusingly it's so prevalent in fanon, and Yuyuko's canon appearances are relatively rare, such that people assume ZUN wasn't responsible for it.
--- 43103528
>>43103298
>entering the magic forest while playing hide and seek during a typhoon
It's for these kinds of things that Cirno is considered super dumb. As silly as the other fairies are, none is as risky as Cirno. things like being eaten by a giant frog is normal if you do dangerous stupid things.
--- 43103539
>>43103143
>a genius compared to the walking lobotomites that are the other fairies.
I'd say Star qualifies as that, and maybe Larva, but not Cirno. Cirno is maybe the third smartest fairy, far as I can tell, which is still to say she's stupid, but it says a lot about fairies
--- 43103543
>>43103440
I think she stands out more for being lazy than for being gluttonous (in canon)
--- 43103548
>>43103298
I definitely would say Wriggle is smarter that Cirno. Come on, she can organize bug performances and news networks.
--- 43103567
>>43103543
Yuyuko is

1) Wise but pretends she isn't
2) A glutton

I wouldn't call her lazy at all, honestly. She relies on her servant fairly often but... why wouldn't she? She also has quite a few examples of her handling things on her own. However, because of 1) she doesn't tend to want to involve herself in matters of the mortal world. It's not her business, in several senses of the word.

Like her gluttony is not understated; she really likes food. Actually go through her appearances and it isn't subtle whatsover.
--- 43103569
>>43103539
the three fairies of light usually trick Cirno into getting cold in summer, so Cirno should be the fifth.
--- 43103572
>>43103520
>the outsider child
--- 43103578
>>43103572
that PROBABLY just means Sumireko, to be fair
--- 43103579
>>43103567
Nah, she's pretty lazy and airheaded most of the time.
She's friends with Yukari though, so it could be a ploy to catch people off-guard.
Or it could be a double bluff, making it LOOK like she's subtly a lot smarter than she looks, but most of the time is actually just pretty carefree. Most though, not all the time.
--- 43103595
>>43103579
She really has no examples of outright laziness that I can think of. Her most notable case of that would be SSiB, where she says she doesn't want to get involved and then... very specifically gets involved and is the most important player in Yukari's plan.

In PCB she fights the heroine and starts the incident.
In IaMP she herself investigates the incident.
In SWR she spreads snow because it's fun.

What examples are there of her being lazy? Also her airheadedness is very clearly an act. She is shown to be very intelligent and very on top of things generally, understanding most situations immediately.
--- 43103635
>>43103595
I used the term lazy here >>43103543 but perhaps the correct word was not that but "Wise but pretends she isn't" as it says.
things like being silly in Youmu's ending in PoFV or in Satori's interrogation are the ones that show how she feigns candidness to avoid discomfort.
--- 43103664
>>43084235
>the absolute terminally autistic reply chain following this post
this guy legit won't give up unless zun draws porn of cirno and dai
--- 43103710
>>43103425
--- 43103757
>>43103528
Marisa wanted to do something similar too, but realized that she has the big problem of being mortal.
Fairies seem to be suicidal sometimes, but they are essentially immortal. Jumping into a giant hole in the ground to see how far it goes might kill them, but they will just wake up like nothing happened in the morning.
--- 43103862
>>43103664
Or unless he acknowledges her existence in any way rather than none at all? I don't see why you think it's autistic to notice he doesn't give a fuck about this nameless character. It's pretty ridiculous to ignore that; man even forgot she existed (again) on a somewhat recent stream and couldn't draw her correctly.
--- 43105068
>>43103388
The only thing Rumia has going for her is that at least she's fairly literate.
Other than that, she has no ambitions, no meaningful skills, and she's never shown achieving anything of note, being extremely bad at hunting humans. She's probably smarter than Wriggle and Mystia, but she's by all accounts a pretty dumb individual.
>>43103528
Excessive recklessness isn't that much of a sign of stupidity when there's legitimately little to no consequences to it. Cirno being brazen even by their standards just makes her the most fairy-like of them all (despite her being kind of a freak amongst them, in several ways). She doesn't have anything to lose (at least as far as she thinks), so she can simply throw caution entirely to the wind and do whatever she wants. Only a few people really manage to unnerve her, and they're people who are really skilled at pushing people's buttons, such as Yuuka and Eiki.
>>43103548
Wriggle can't even remember what happened like, a week ago. She has zero capacity of organizing anything of note, and there's no indication she's even capable of reading, since she never commented on her own article.
She likely has an intuitive and fairly comprehensive understanding of insects (but only present day ones, as she's shown to have zero knowledge of (youkai) insect history), but all characters seem to have that understanding of their own powers, even the really dumb ones. Utsuho is likely about as intelligent as the average fairy (though she's a single-minded hyper-autist as opposed to being easily distracted like fairies), but her understanding of nuclear physics is solid, despite obviously never actually studying it, for example. For Wriggle to show any genuine intelligence, it would have to be about something beyond just insects.
>>43103569
Eh, Cirno being easy to manipulate by flattering her only partially counts, as far as I'm concerned. It's more due to her arrogance than anything. Tenshi can be manipulated in the same way, and she's actually pretty well learned, compared to most characters, even if she's just a shitter amongst Celestials.
Star does seem to have more smarts than most (though it's all of the scumbag variety), but she and the other two also do really dumb stuff like destroying Cirno's house thinking it'll help them recruit her in their quest to cause an incident. Luna is also explicitly called dumb by Akyuu due to her general clumsiness and penchant towards stuff like walking on her tippy toes despite muting all sounds. Despite her enjoying books, she's probably the dumbest fairy that we know of.
Larva's probably the smartest one, at any rate. She actually managed to develop new powers after the Four Seasons incident, and she had a pretty good grasp on what happened with Cirno just from what Cirno told her. Cirno herself also seems to understand the situation better than it would appear at first glance, but she just stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the obvious because admitting the truth would just be way too scary to her. It's her being in denial more than anything.
--- 43105375
Is Reimu smarter than a fairy?
--- 43105394
>>43103664
--- 43105432
>>43105375
Reimu is pretty smart, at least when it comes to her craft. She knows a lot about youkai, folklore, and rituals.
A lot of the info dumps about the supernatural in the various manga comes from her.
--- 43105444
>>43105375
She's certainly not richer than a fairy.
--- 43105456
>>43105432
my favourite Reimu moment that a lot of people don't know about because it's from deep in the weeds of CoLA is Reimu giving a lecture on luck after Marisa complains that Reimu always wins at games of chance
there was a fanon period for a while where Reimu was constantly portrayed as completely unlucky
--- 43105480
>>43105456
That sounds dumb.
canonically, Reimu has god-tier luck, winning at gambling and shit
in the *first chapter* of the fairy manga, she manages to cross a stream without noticing, because she steps on fish and rocks by sheer luck, not even getting her feet wet.
--- 43105511
>>43105456
>>43105480
she has good luck for things like playing cards at Miyoi's restaurant. but she in turn has bad luck in things like doing whatever she gives her money in WaHH.
--- 43105906
>>43105068
>She has zero capacity of organizing anything of note, and there's no indication she's even capable of reading, since she never commented on her own article.
wut. Are you legit misremembering? Just reread the article.

1) She did organize something, she just stopped doing it mostly because her bugs were fucking up
2) She is able to organize bug performances and does so regularly
3) She comments on the article
4) She initially doesn't remember what the article is talking about, but then does after a single sentence. The Japanese is also in a playful/mocking tone most in BAiJR employ when talking to Aya, basically being dismissive toward her (see Yuyuko's for another example)
5) She is up to date on bug information within years' spans and even mentions insecticide and discusses its implications
--- 43105933
>>43105432
>Reimu is pretty smart
Wha-
>at least when it comes to her craft
This is true. Otherwise Reimu is definitely very dumb, or at least really fuckin' careless. "Low effort" is her creed.
--- 43105962
>>43105906
>she just stopped doing it mostly because her bugs were fucking up
and I'll cop to my misremembering here

Not quite, they stopped because they were getting bored of doing it.
--- 43107063
>>43105511
>she in turn has bad luck in things like doing whatever she gives her money in WaHH.
Not really, she's mostly able to attract visitor every time she has a plan initially but fucking dogshit at maintaining it
--- 43107124
>>43105511
Its not bad luck, its that she doesn't maintain anything. She could and has made her shrine successful like in Wahh but she doesn't care to maintain it at all. She also gets carried away with bad ideas like the theme park idea or the merchandise. 
None of that is bad luck, just laziness and poor planning
--- 43107145
>>43105933
Very careless, she let's obvious incidents sneak up on her and is very dense about things not because she can't figure them out but because she doesn't care to look into things
--- 43107413
>>43107124
>like the theme park
That reminds me that I love that chapter. Seriously, compare how fun that chapter was to how boring the new manga chapters have been. I just want to see Reimu, Marisa and Kasen goof off together. Why can't the new protagonists be this fun? and that Kasen is supposed to be someone serious and strict.
--- 43109298
This is canon!
Is a bad ending in IN!
--- 43109316
>>43109298
No, get out, shut the door as you leave.
--- 43110158
>>43109298
it is called BAD ending for an reason, anon, it isnt canon, never happened at all.
--- 43110218
>>43110158
Ok. Then the actual canon is this isn't?
--- 43110293
>>43100938
You know what is the cause behind this?
I think it's because most "fans" don't see a character for their "character" they just see onanist material. Like their minds automatically tag characters is if they were an ero-doujinshi. That is DESPICABLE.
--- 43110316
>>43109298
I do not want to quote hiro of all people, but MariAli naggers are really dumb.
AliNazu SCHOLARS on the other hand...
--- 43110521
>>43110158
Bad endings, like all endings, do seem to be semi canon. I believe that IN ending is canon.

That said, it doesn't mean /u/, you know? They are friends. Touhou characters have been somewhat frequently known to sleep over at one another's places. Marisa practically lives at the Shrine, for example
--- 43111212
>>43103862
Boohoo
--- 43111375
>>43111212
Well, don't cry.
--- 43111484
>>43083773 (OP)
Canon: Slacking off and busty
Fanon: Slacking off and busty
--- 43111789
>>43103440
The one that gets me isn't the gluttony, but that people take her demeanor at face value and portray her as stupid. 
Yuyuko has a mix of intellect and intuition that has led to her figure out incidents before the entire rest of the cast at least three times. 
She's agile and outstandingly composed.
--- 43114142
>>43095801
>I remember the translated transcript saying that he forgot what she looked like.
I was curious about this, so I decided to investigate and I found this:
https://mobile.twitter.com/richard_effendi/status/1607749092406620166
I mean what the hell ZUN? He knew what Daiyousei looks like and still drew her badly?
--- 43114155
>>43114142
>ZUN's answer : Daiyousei drinking Coffee 
e_e
--- 43114270
By the way, notice how ZUN drew Hijiri. Does that mean ZUN forgot about her?
--- 43114307
Just to reiterate when ZUN was asked to draw daiyousei he was asked to draw a big fairy not daiyousei the character
--- 43114545
>>43114307
Wasn't it "Dai-chan"?
--- 43114583
>>43110158
It's canon that the protags try again and again until they win
--- 43116685
>>43111484
We won, Komachibros...
--- 43118874
>>43105068
Cirno is also one of the only fairies to show to have a fear and/or understanding of death however, so paradoxically she should be the most cautious fairy yet presses on in spite of this knowledge.
--- 43118902
>>43105933
Reimu can afford to be careless for a similar reason a fairy can. If she croaks, it's game over for Gensokyo, so the very lands around her have a vested interested in keeping her safe, and if they don't, that's a them problem.
--- 43118947
>>43114270
He got the rainbow hair down. I'd say it's a pretty accurate take.
--- 43118978
>>43114270
Looks a bit like Eika
--- 43119077
>>43090845
Yukari's a true trickster, through and through, ever since at least SSiB. The fighting games dialogues suggest that she doesn't know as much as she does and tricks people into explaining stuff to her, and while still powerful, she's not as powerful as expected. In a sense, she's the perfect "Youkai": someone feared through sheer reputation and infamy.
Okina's closer to fanon Yukari than actual canon Yukari. She's a schemer, hides from most denizens, but she rules through intimidation and threats. HSiFS is literally just her flexing, basically saying "hey I'm still here jackasses".
Kasen meanwhile is the person that makes people act through kind words, suggestions, and lectures... at least nowadays. Back then she was probably the brawler of the sages. 
They actually line up with the four mafia bosses pretty well,
Yachie = Yukari
Saki = Kasen (Pre-arm cut)
Yuuma = Okina

So I wonder, how's the 4th sage going to be like? One's a hermit/oni, one's a god, one's a pure youkai, so I imagine the 4th is either going to be a human or a fairy.
--- 43119432
>>43118902
>If she croaks, it's game over for Gensokyo
Nah, we know she's replaceable. Of course she is: the Hakurei are a lineage, and Aya heavily insinuates that they can be replaced as a last resort (and this is with nobody listening to her)
--- 43119443
>>43119077
they ARE called youkai sages (and Okina a "youkai god") so I'd be surprised if one was human

That or it's a Hakurei. That said there's literally never been any indication how many sages there are: not three, four, five, or twenty. They're simply titled as sages, not like the big four oni.
--- 43119485
>>43119077
>>43119443
It's obviously the Hakurei God herself (it's Touhou, all of them are female)
After all, the barrier named after the her and her shrine acts as the gateway between Gensokyo and Outside World
--- 43119525
>>43105068
>Other than that, she has no ambitions, no meaningful skills, and she's never shown achieving anything of note

Now Rumia I can relate to!
--- 43119529
>>43119485
Honestly? Definitely not.

The Hakurei god is strongly anti-youkai. It would never accept such a designation. It's also so powerful that even without invoking its rites properly, tools blessed by it will innately damage even the most powerful being in existence (IE Kasen + the fact that Reimu fights gods). I think that people generally misunderstand the god as "probably an important figure that ZUN will introduce properly one day", but every time it's used and mentioned it is a distant, THOROUGHLY pissed off being that is not invested in Gensokyo politics and essentially only wishes for bloodshed. Youkai bloodshed, granted, but violence nonetheless.
--- 43119534
>>43119529
>the most powerful being in existence
beingS I missed an S, let's not get into powerlevels, Kasen is definitely "very powerful"
--- 43119569
>>43119529
>The Hakurei god is strongly anti-youkai
Exactly, she NEEDS youkai to exist as her existence as youkai exterminator god hinges on youkai causing trouble to get exterminated by her miko
If anything, she's angry because Reimu barely gain any faith because of her chumminess to youkai that human villager steer clear from the shrine
--- 43119579
>>43119569
Not exactly, really. Consider that it can't gather faith yet continues to exist. It's almost an anomalous being.
--- 43119604
>>43119579
>Consider that it can't gather faith
People still pray to her and visit her shrine anon, even if it's once a month or something
--- 43119721
>>43119604
No, it legitimately cannot gather faith, or at least the amount of faith it is able to gather has been reducing drastically because you can't pray to it directly, you can only really vaguely believe in "the Hakurei shrine". As nobody (or, very few people) know its name and Reimu doesn't know its rituals, it is faithless. Furthermore Reimu is just not good at being a shrine maiden for the shrine. This is explained in UFO, and is the reason Kanako tries to take the shrine over. When facing Reimu she also implies that the God's faith is currently at zero, but that's likely banter. And for what it's worth, Reimu is very worried about it at the time.

In UFO Byakuren also claims that it has no faith/worship, as after encountering it she remarks
>「この神社……全然信仰されてないでしょ？」
>This shrine... isn't believed in at all, is it?
This is translated lighter in the fantranslations as "Nobody... Really worships at this shrine, do they?" though the Japanese is instead more of an absolute remark, not implying that it's even believed in by degrees.
--- 43119725
>>43119721
>This is explained in UFO
meant to write MoF here
--- 43119825
>>43119721
Also here's the chapter of CoLA (25) discussing the god's name being forgotten, its "blessings" being impotent, and how "it itself doesn't matter, what matters is the shrine" https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_25

Both Reimu and Rinnosuke talk about it, with Marisa offering observations
--- 43119866
>>43116685
bulletproof lorecrafting
--- 43120865
>>43103710
I WILL sniff Cirno's feet and you can't do anything about it
--- 43121512
>>43119721
>>43119825
No anon, even Kanako as a god herself said that even if a god barely got any faith, as long as people believes said god exist it will continue to linger around the shrine
With Rinnosuke apparently personally knew who Hakurei god is, she's probably used to have physical body running around Gensokyo until the shrine ran out of faith for her to maintain said body
--- 43125214
>>43120865
I'll film you.
--- 43127467
>>43109298
Bold to assume that Marisa didn't sleep on the floor
--- 43129663
>>43103664
>unless zun draws porn of cirno and dai
God I wish
--- 43129670
>>43127467
Bold to assume Marisa wouldn't steal the floor nails.
--- 43129814
The worst bit of fanon is people drawing Cirno wearing shoes.
--- 43133687
>>43083773 (OP)
Shes not that much of a narcissistic little brat compared to her sister though.
--- 43138227
>>43133687
Remilia is a spoiled children compared to Flandre
--- 43141727
>>43092075
I know the artist was dying or some shit but the art in this manga really started to turn to shit
--- 43142612
>>43141727
>the art in this manga really started to turn to shit
??
It started out like that, but they change the artist. I really like these face.
--- 43142648
Cute and clean.
--- 43142688
>>43142648
bunch of assholes
--- 43142701
>>43142648
Reimu looks cute in this style.
--- 43143774
>>43105480
The way Reimu's luck works correlates with her power. She is only lucky on things she's doesn't take an effort on doing. She's basically "floating in life" without a care in the world.
If she desperately WANTS to win, it would take her more effort to win in contrast to if she doesn't really care.
It's why she's unlucky with money or why Kasen cheers her on in WaHH when Reimu goes against Byakuren (when Kasen bet against Reimu), because Reimu wants money or to win. 
In contrast, it's why fish gathered at her feet in EaLND or why some of her powers are mentioned to subconsciously activate, because she wasn't thinking about them at all.

In other words, if you gave Reimu's power to Koishi, Koishi would be an unstoppable force.
--- 43144073
>>43084251
They have canonically slept together.
--- 43151690
>>43141727
It's funny because their art outside of the manga was absolutely fine. I really think that they just couldn't handle the stress of manga serialization
--- 43156883
>>43151690
If this artist did Mizuchi reveal she'd be regarded as milf
Missed opportunity
--- 43157491
>>43129814
yeah, she wears socks
--- 43157596
>>43105068
knowledge of past insects wouldn't be very useful for wriggle to know unless they had a method of protecting themselves, which they didn't have for insecticide.
--- 43162302
>>43142612
>>43142648
Where the fuck is Unzan in this manga? Don't tell me Mizuchi is gonna possess a fucking cloud next
--- 43162610
>>43144073
ok, let's say it's true.
It does not mean that Marisa canonically took care of Alice after Mizuchi possessed her. And she is, in fact, the only one who was taking care of her. Thus Marisa is currently the only one who truly cares for Alice.
checkmate.
--- 43165214
>>43084267
Canon Satori is smug.
--- 43168491
>>43083773 (OP)
Canon Flandre is also pretty psychotic. But less psychopathic mass murderer and more sociopathic noble. 

Remilia and Flandre are both opposites. Remilia acts immature but is mature while Flandre acts mature but is immature.
--- 43168536
>>43092270
The thing about Flandre is that her monstrous nature is much more human. She's like a spoiled brat that never grew out of the mentality that the entire world revolved around her. Most youkai are, in a way, psychopathic womanchildren. But most of them are closer to little kids pulling the wings off a fly, Flandre is a borderline serial killer in her behavior.
--- 43168570
>>43105068
>She's probably smarter than Wriggle and Mystia, but she's by all accounts a pretty dumb individual.
Wriggle is actually pretty smart, or at least way more considerate than she seems considering her fondness for her insect friends and her attempts to make them more popular with humans.

Mystia is a bit of a birdbrain and also very evil. But she did manage a pretty clever scam and is generally shown as being oddly prolific in what she does. Be it cooking, scamming, singing, playing guitar, or murdering.
--- 43168594
>>43119432
I mean, we don't know how many backup Hakurei's there are and Aya is far from all knowing.

It's possible Reimu is the last of her line. It's possibly she has a sister somewhere. We don't know.

>>43119529
Could be. While we don't know much about them, most of the previous Hakurei shrine Maidens were presumably extremely evil people. So, after centuries of being misused by them it's pretty likely it just wants violent judgement on everything and everybody.
--- 43169368
>>43168536
>Flandre is a borderline serial killer in her behavior
How so?
--- 43169862
>>43169368
Besides her almost murdering Meiling while laughing like a madwoman. Her reaction to Sakuya possibly having murdered, or at least tried to murder, Patchouli is pretty worrisome.
--- 43169896
>>43169862
no one gave a shit about Meiling being strangled and even Remi laughed like "ah silly Flan"
--- 43170015
>>43169896
I hate to tell you this, but Remilia isn't exactly a great person either. Even then, she was still kind of disturbed to see Flandre trying to kill, or at least harm, her staff. 

Overall, Flandre clearly enjoys fighting and, seemingly, killing. She does often restrain herself. But that is mostly for the sake of her sister than anything else.
--- 43171483
>>43169862
>Her reaction to Sakuya possibly having murdered, or at least tried to murder, Patchouli is pretty worrisome.
You forgot that Flan knew that Sakuya didn't killed Patchy or even Patchy got killed in the first place, she's just taking a piss the whole situation 
She wouldn't even bothered to freed Sakuya and immediately gunning for the culprit if she's "a borderline serial killer in her behavior"
--- 43173307
>>43084235
>>43084251
but these are jpgs
--- 43173348
>>43173307
Ok here a gif
--- 43173912
>>43168594
They absolutely weren't evil, how on earth would you come to that conclusion? If anything you could construe whichever maiden or maidens created the barrier as evil/self-serving, and Reimu as well for maintaining the barrier (+ any maidens inbetween). As we know, the Hakurei were protectors who fought youkai to defend humans in the ancient past.
--- 43176944
>>43169896
>no one gave a shit about Meiling
Poor Meiling
--- 43179235
>>43114583
Continues aren't canon only 1ccs
--- 43179289
>>43119485
The Hakurei god is the player
--- 43179837
>>43179235
>canon
>ending
Anon, there are no canon endings. If that were the case, I ask you, which character resolved which incident? It is always said that Reimu but on many occasions it is seen that Marisa's ending is actually the canon (as in UFO) so how can you say that a bad ending is not canon in a game where it is never specified which team resolved the incident but is left to the player's choice.
--- 43182991
>>43114270
Why is ZUN like this?
--- 43187368
>>43182991
He's an old alcoholic man
--- 43188193
>>43179837
All endings are cannon as long as a 1cc was involved
--- 43188216
>>43119525
I wish she got expanded upon, she's had so many chances that got scrapped because ZUN thought it would take too much time.
--- 43192589
>>43114155
Cute!
--- 43193093
>>43188216
Next touhou game will 100% be about Rumia
All the mobs will be Rumia
All the bosses are Rumia 
The ex-stage is Rumia 
The PCs are Rumia
Screen shot this post
--- 43197647
>>43193093
Delusional.
--- 43199029
>>43179235
>various incidents have occurred with moderate frequency that have had no lasting effects. 
>The game ends once a victor is decided, although the shrine maiden likes to have rematches until she wins. 
The game ends once a victor is decided, although the shrine maiden likes to have rematches until she wins.
--- 43199032
>>43199029
last paste wwas supposed to be this, oops https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
--- 43199051
>>43188193
there is literally only 1 game where ZUN has specified that 1CC was canon and that's LoLK, obviously because if you don't 1CC LoLK/if you play in pointdevice there are dramatic differences on each character's future (especially Sanae) so it can't be canon
--- 43200165
>>43199029
>although the shrine maiden likes to have rematches until she wins
Why is she like this?
--- 43200295
>>43170015
>Remilia isn't exactly a great person
While not a paragon of virtue by any means, she's not cruel by any means. She cares for the fairies and hobgoblins in her employment and treats them well, and the fairies can leave at any time but choose to stay. There was also a part in the three fairies manga where Remilia say's that she's worried for their mental health.
--- 43200524
>>43200295
Remilia changed a lot after meeting Reimu and Marisa.
--- 43201427
>>43200295
>There was also a part in the three fairies manga where Remilia say's that she's worried for their mental health.
I wouldn't put too much stock in that one line when in most other (closer to ZUN) works, Remilia is pretty consistently described as a rather unreasonable employer. Stuff like this dishonest recruitment ad or Cirno describing the fairy maids' employment as them being treated like slaves are a recurring sentiment. Remilia is also notorious for making unreasonable demands that leave even senior employees like Meiling scrambling to fulfil her whims, and Remilia's character is pretty consistently described as being highly self-centred and childish, so such a level of consideration is honestly pretty out-of-character to her.
Granted, the maids are free to come and go, and nobody really expects all that much from them, so it's not like any real harm is done, but Remilia is rarely depicted as anything resembling a "good" person.
--- 43204473
Fanon:
>Little shit
Canon:
>Also a little shit
--- 43207192
>>43200295
She's not cruel, but she is still distant and like the other anon said not the best employer in the world.
--- 43208977
>>43103143
isn't clownpiece both stronger and smarter than her?
--- 43209099
>>43208977
She has more potential since her power was something like causing life to grow in a frenzy and making people crazy was just the surface level application. 
Smarter? No not really
--- 43209172
>>43209099
>Smarter? No not really
why not? have we ever seen her acting quite as dumb as cirno?
--- 43209567
>>43209172
>have we ever seen her acting quite as dumb as cirno?
She's literally wants to burn the Hakurei shrine when there's a festival going on with so many of Gensokyo's top dogs attending it
If anything, Cirno is just an overconfident klutz compared to her
--- 43209758
>>43193093
done
--- 43210447
>>43208977
There's just no proper frame of reference for either of their power levels.
Clownpiece in LoLK is a pretty tough fight, and Hecatia claims that she's strong even by hell's standards in Alternative Facts, but she was hopped up on Junko Juice during LoLK, and she's pretty scared of Reimu in VFiS, which implies that she's not *that* strong.

Meanwhile, Cirno's power is just ridiculously variable all throughout the franchise. She can be anything from a speedbump, to around the level of a minor youkai, to being able to give Marisa a pretty hard time, to being able to throw down with one of the most powerful people in Gensokyo and coming out victorious. It's just impossible to really pin her down.

If I had to hazard a guess, I figure that in most circumstances, Clownpiece would be the better fighter, but Cirno (forma bronceada) would wreck Piece completely.
Both are knuckleheads, though.
--- 43210450
So what you're saying is that Cirno is a smart dumbass while Clownpiece is a dumb smartass?
--- 43210492
>>43210447
>Cirno (forma bronceada)
>Not Cirno (forma latinoamericana)
--- 43210524
>>43210450
They're both dumbasses. Fairies just don't put in much thought into anything, excepting maybe Larva.
That's not to say they *can't* think rationally, but they rarely bother to put much effort into it. It's just not something fairies do.

On another note, despite being a hell fairy, Clownpiece is probably the most cowardly fairy we've seen, once she's up against someone who's legitimately strong, while Cirno is extremely good at stubbornly denying the obvious staring her right in the face.
--- 43211630
>>43210524
Cirno is such a great character.
--- 43211757
>>43210524
Okina is the grandad from happywheels comfirm?
--- 43212004
>>43103143
>In fact, her claim of being the strongest is pretty accurate 
If you remember it's a PoFV victory quote. She also says it to Shiki but in reference to having beaten the other stages up to that point.
--- 43212151
>>43210524
>Cirno is extremely good at stubbornly denying the obvious staring her right in the face
Tbf Cirno did able to beat (or at least give some trouble) some of Gensokyo's hardest hitter once in a while like what you said, and considering they can't die permanently her stubbornness isn't unwarranted at all
--- 43212531
>>43210447
>There's just no proper frame of reference for either of their power levels.
As you said, Hecatia, the most powerful character in the series, says she's strong as fuck

She's the strongest. However, Cirno is the strongest native fairy of Gensokyo
--- 43212535
>>43210447
Also no Cirno couldn't wreck shit, she sucks, that's the joke

Clownpiece meanwhile ran the heroines of the series ragged
--- 43212539
>>43210447
>being able to give a drunk* Marisa using a flashlight* a kind of* hard time
--- 43212548
>>43200165
She's a brat.
--- 43212568
>>43212151
>>43210524
Cirno has only fought against Okina (using Okina's own powers in a total mock fight) to any kind of effectiveness. She has ran away from all other major battles of hers in the series, or just outright been defeated. Under several layers of handicaps, she technically won against Marisa once.
--- 43212594
>>43212535
She's still thr strongest fairy. In the world of fairies she's the heavyweight champ
--- 43212611
>>43212594
fairy of Gensokyo*

Or fairy period if you want to count Clownpiece "not as a fairy" (since she's technically a "lampad")
--- 43212740
>>43212151
>considering they can't die permanently
Cirno is the one fairy for whom that isn't a guarantee, and it's something that directly came up in HSiFS again, so it holds continued relevance and forms an important part of Cirno's character arc.
And of course, what's notable is that Cirno isn't simply clueless about it; she understands the nature of the doors and her own condition well enough to explain it in a way Larva understands, and later to figure out Okina's involvement in the fairy crystal incident, but she still flat-out denies the threat her "tan" forms to her. It's a recurring thing for her; when she's confronted with something that truly scares her (such as Eiki talking about death), she shuts down and pretends it's not a thing, even though she's clearly smart enough to grasp the concept to some extent.

Cirno's just a weird little fucker in general, really, well beyond possessing way more power than a fairy should have. Her storyline in Hidden Star in Four Seasons brings it up repeatedly.
-Aunn senses something evil within Cirno's power, which is something she doesn't mention with any of the other characters. It can't even be Okina's influence, since Aunn didn't show any concern whatsoever when meeting Okina in Wild and Horned Hermit. (Unless it's just a Satsui no Hadou reference, which is entirely possible)
-Narumi fails to use her power over life force to control Cirno, and notes that means she must not running on pure fairy power at the time. Having her latent power drawn out shouldn't change her nature, and the other fairies just emit (seasonal) life energy much more strongly, so this weird, non-fairy power must've been something that had been hidden deep within Cirno all along.
-Okina in the Extra Stage notes how Cirno is (unknowingly) wielding doyou, which shocks her because that kind of energy is supposed to be antithetical to fairies. It's likely that typical fairies would be completely unable to use it.
There's clearly something about Cirno's hidden potential that's just very weird.
--- 43212871
>>43212740
>Cirno is the one fairy for whom that isn't a guarantee, and it's something that directly came up in HSiFS again, so it holds continued relevance and forms an important part of Cirno's character arc.
Not exactly, this is basically a leap ahead.

It's not that it isn't a guarantee, it's that it COULD be a problem if she gets any stronger by moving beyond her nature as a fairy of ice. This is what Eiki warned her about. Naturally that's why it would be relevant in 16 as well, where she was very much pushed away from her nature.

I would also say that you shouldn't really misinterpret things about 16--Cirno is the ONLY character so deeply influenced by Okina's power that it literally changes her physical form. As you also mentioned, she could have been basically influenced by Larva. Reimu, Aya, and Marisa do *use* Okina's power, but it's only Cirno who's corrupted with it and basically bursting at the seams. Characters note her differently than the other heroines because yeah, she is different, she's basically a ticking timebomb with her flesh literally burning from sheer power.
--- 43212996
>>43212531
Yeah, Hecatia claims that, but it's not really substantiated very well by her actual feats. She's clearly scared of Reimu and the others after fighting them, and she can't even get a hit in against Okina in VFiS, who really wasn't making the slightest effort, while Clownpiece herself was fighting alongside other fairies, showcasing an absolutely massive difference in power. Clownpiece didn't even rank compared to Okina.
>>43212539
Marisa explicitly notes that Cirno could've been trouble even if she had pulled out her murderlasers, and she was obviously getting more serious as the fight progressed. Marisa decidedly outclassed Cirno there, but the difference wasn't so big that Cirno was just a joke to Marisa. She must've been around the level of what you'd expect from a typical stage 4~5 boss during that stage.
>>43212568
Okina only did two things. The first was to draw out her latent potential, which have Cirno a ridiculous buff compared to the others simply because she had so much of it, but it still originates from Cirno herself, and second, the open door on her back allowed her to draw on and wield the seasonal energy lying around as a weapon, and Okina outright commends Cirno's skill at using it.
And while Okina *was* "holding back", she did so by *only* drawing on her native power as the hidden god, and not drawing on the seasonal energy she had collected in addition to that. It's like going up against a world-class boxer, but he was holding back because he wasn't also using the gun he owns.
--- 43213013
>>43212996
>it still originates from Cirno herself
I don't recall it being that, given Okina takes away all powers in the end (including hers). You'd need proof/to remind me of that
--- 43213043
>>43213031
>>43213025
Hahaha
DORK
--- 43213105
>>43213043
What was it?
--- 43213151
>>43212594
Pure power she likely beats everyone at fairy level since she is a hell fairy, but her relative smarts and fear of stronger enemies also makes her inferior to Cirno in many ways in a real fight.
Fairies don't gain anything from thinking about strategies more complicated than "surround them" or "sneak up on them" since essentially they are immortal and if they bash their heads open against a wall, someday it will fall.

This is all a moot point regardless since fairies are nature and don't engage in this kind of powerlevel faggotry. The things fairies care about are above our understanding.
--- 43213250
>>43165214
She knows what you fap to that’s why
--- 43213252
>>43213013
Okina *is* able to pour energy into things, like she did with the komainu statue to make Aunn, but that wasn't what was going on during the incident for the most part. The dancers' actions are always described as drawing out their victims' potential, which would explain the huge differences in power gained. Most fairies just get enough of a buff for them to run wild (and their sheer quantity led to the seasons running amok), but Cirno's increase in power was much greater, and surprised even Okina and the dancers. They shouldn't have been so surprised if they're the ones who sourced all that energy.
Though since their buffs happen because of Okina's doors, and she can freely control them, she could easily help herself to the energy they collected and use it against them, leading to their defeat in Stage 6.
She could also simply close their door and kick them out, which would also steadily reduce their power to normal, so she completely set the terms for their fight and could put an end to it whenever she wanted, but she wanted to fight the heroines more or less fairly, so she didn't use that.
Ultimately, Okina wanted to see what the heroines could achieve, but she only enabled their increase in power, rather than granting it to them entirely.
--- 43213284
>As silly as the other fairies are, none is as risky as Cirno. things like being eaten by a giant frog is normal if you do dangerous stupid things.
Typical day for a fairy
--- 43213296
>>43213284
to >>43103528
--- 43213307
>>43213284
Wonder what the fairies thought of the crabs if they saw any that appeared in that one LS chapter.
--- 43213418
>>43213252
No I mean can you prove that with a quote please, I'm not talking about interpreting.
--- 43213482
>>43213151
>inferior to Cirno in many ways in a real fight
Don't just eat what people tell you about Cirno, the girl who has more records of actual cowardice than Clownpiece.

Clownpiece outright fought Reimu and lost, justifiably recognizing her strength (and of course, her master had told her she was undefeatable so of course that shook her (she was only undefeatable to Lunarians)). She's also from a world of strength and presumably proved her own otherwise she wouldn't catch Hecatia's interest. Getting spooked by Okina does make sense.

Cirno "fought" Yuuka and ran away ASAP, she also "fought" Utsuho and ran away ASAP. Emboldened by a victory that was only granted to her by an absurdly powerful god, she fought against that god again with other fairies and unsurprisingly was herself ineffectual. She also got right spooked by Eiki--understandably.
I think the bravest thing Cirno's done, with nothing holding her back, was maybe fighting Marisa as she did that completely of her own volition and high on victories over other fairies. She also fought a puppet once, iirc, that was kinda cool but wasn't really a matter of bravery.
--- 43213570
>>43212740
>>43212871
What Shiki said in PoFV was more like Cirno will get hurt in a way she wouldn't be able to recover from, for example Narumi destroying her completely. I don't know why people neither fix the translation nor think becoming something other than a fairy would make Cirno die, especially in the same thread where they acknowledge Flan blowing up Yuuma doesn't even kill her. It's sort of like the thought that Larva is really extremely powerful just because she might be a god, when Clownpiece is a lampad, another kind of god, and is just a strong fairy. (and this is ignoring fairies are called nature deities even in their own manga) 

Cirno is weird but all the main fairies, and in general the ones who went to fight Okina, are weird. Cirno is mentioned to be weird because of her power alone, with Larva and the others saying it's abnormal for fairies to want to be associated with cold or live around the lake Cirno does. Larva and Piece are weird for being only technically fairies, the three mains are weird for living together and wanting to be friends with humans, let alone a shrine maiden, and the daiyouseis are probably more like Cirno in just being unusually strong for fairies. Also despite the fairies of light being weak, they were still able to go berserk off screen during HSiFS and not end up turning into a crystal as a backlash, which implies they're fairly powerful.

I do wonder what if Cirno or Clownpiece were living in the border tree instead of the three fairies. From what Yukari implied, it's possible for there to be too-strong fairies.
--- 43213600
>>43213482
>he fought against that god again with other fairies and unsurprisingly was herself ineffectual
Technically Okina was surprised by her final attack and Cirno only missed hitting her because both groups of fairy attacks collided and blew up
--- 43213718
>>43213570
>Flan blowing up Yuuma doesn't even kill her
it did kill her, though

one of her
--- 43213799
>>43213570
>They were still able to go berserk off screen during HSiFS
This is something I wanted to ask, what happened to the three fairies of light during the HSiFS incident? I read all the manga but I can't remember what happened to the three of them on that occasion.
>which implies they're fairly powerful.
Of the three we could consider that Sunny is the strongest? I mean, the power to become invisible and reflect light is quite useful, and even Yukari said that she seems to be the strongest.
--- 43214334
>>43213418
Okina never gives a full explanation, but this segment from Aya's extra should be pretty clear.
>I've been feeling like it's about time
for me to release my two servants.
>So I was looking for their successor.
>In order to draw in candidates with
potential from a wide area...
>I had the two of them draw out the latent
abilities of absolutely everybody.
>The seasons simply appeared a bit strange because
of the fairies' and divine spirits' latent power.
Okina wanted to find servants with high potential, so she drew it out from everyone, and its their power that led to the seasons running amok, just like how it drew out some of Tokoyo no Kami's power from Larva.
It's basically just like the characters who draw out latent potential in Dragon Ball, where they can help people draw out power without training, and I guess that Cirno is the equivalent of Gohan in this franchise, but like, less retarded, probably.
--- 43214636
>>43213570
>I do wonder what if Cirno or Clownpiece were living in the border tree instead of the three fairies. From what Yukari implied, it's possible for there to be too-strong fairies.
Fairies can only live in an environment suitable to them, so Cirno and Piece definitely wouldn't qualify. A more suitable, yet too powerful fairy would probably just cause the tree to grow out of control and upset the spiritual balance.
--- 43217659
>>43213482
My point wasn't really that Cirno was braver than clowpy. They are fairies, they are scared and brave basically at random.
Clown just seems to put more thought into the strenght of the opponent, either thanks to Heca teaching her or from experience from hell. And this thinking is not useful to a fairy in any way.

As to why Heca picked this exact fairy? Who knows really, maybe she has great potential like Cirno or maybe she was the only one to survive Junkos juices or maybe it was just her ability to cause madness or Heca simply needs a fairy so she befriended one. Hecatia is known to plan long term afterall and used Clown accordingly in her manga.

Fairy power comparisons are still dumb, would rather discuss how it affects Cirno to be the only ice fairy or what part of "nature" Clown really is.
--- 43218551
>>43217659
>As to why Heca picked this exact fairy? Who knows really

>In Hell, we don't care what race you are as you have the strength to back it up. A super-meritocracy where all that matters is whether you can get the job done. Even some of the Kishin are "background noise," while a good enough fairy can make a name for themselves. Clownpiece is strong, and not just "for a fairy," so I value her highly.
--- 43218823
>>43218551
all this sound like the description of hell in shin megami tensei
--- 43218832
>>43213482
Cirno isn't really cowardly, she's just smart enough to recognize she's pretty vulnerable and lives in an igloo surrounded by man-eating monsters, while the closest civilization is full of superstitious Luddites who would burn her at the stake if sufficiently displeased. 

 Utusho and Yuuka could squash even someone like Marisa like a bug if they decided they didn't want to play by the rules. Marisa herself puts a lot of trust in Reimu to enforce the Spellcard System for her safety, perhaps even too much.
--- 43218925
>>43218832
I think Marisa is quite powerful too. almost at Reimu's level. I mean, 40% of duels between Reimu and Marisa are won by Marisa. so i don't think
--- 43218960
>>43217659
According to Greek legend, Hectate's lampads were gifted to her by other gods as the sort of Olympian equivalent of sending off your youngest child to the monastery or something. They're not only her servants, but directly raised by her hand.
Along with the implication that Eternity was once a goddess, it gives an interesting idea in the relationship between fairies and gods.
--- 43218990
>>43218925
>I mean, 40% of duels between Reimu and Marisa are won by Marisa
Yeah, in a spellcard duel and not an actual fight death-to-death
--- 43219012
>>43218925
Marisa is fundamentally a human who can be disabled by something as simple (for a stronger youkai) as removing all the air in the battlefield. Reimu's humanity is only a formality she can throw off whenever she needs to apprehend a misbehaving god or youkai, shedding the very boundaries of reality itself.
--- 43219164
>>43218925
>>43218832
>>43219012
Marisa is capable of leveling a mountain with her magic.

That was at default with Rinnosuke's gift: she has since only gotten more powerful.
--- 43219170
>>43218823
With most of Hecatia's words, the various hells of Touhou are actually much closer to the various makai worlds of the Disgaea franchise.
--- 43219210
>>43119077
Do we even know if its on 4 sages?
And it would be interesting if one was a human, okina is a god so a human or half youkai would be nice.
--- 43222761
Canon: my wife
Fanon: my wife
--- 43223145
>>43222761
Canon: somewhat old-fashioned, adapting quickly, gets along with most of the cast, willingly dissuaded from rash action, mother of five in her backstory 
Fanon: speaks EModE for some reason, stubborn, megalomaniacal and combative, pyromaniac, doesn't know what a penis is

I'm sorry to use a crossie phrase, but what the devil happened?
--- 43224542
>>43213570
>Also despite the fairies of light being weak, they were still able to go berserk off screen during HSiFS and not end up turning into a crystal as a backlash, which implies they're fairly powerful.
It's hard to tell why some fairies weren't crystallized. The most likely situation is probably that the affected fairies were the ones who went way overboard with power well beyond their normal limits, so the rare calmer fairies and the ones who were already close to their cap would be left unaffected.
The Three Fairies of Light didn't seem to even notice the incident until it was already winding down, so they probably didn't get a huge boost out of it (excepting maybe the overexcited Star), who seemed to have , and hell fairies like Clownpiece probably draw out most of their potential on their own, since surviving in Hell means either working hard to keep up or getting crushed.
Cirno should've been crystallized too, with this reasoning, but given that Okina clearly took a special interest in her and was spying on her all throughout the event, Okina would've just fixed her up ahead of time and prevented her from crystallizing like the others.
--- 43224605
>>43218960
>the relationship between fairies and gods.
--- 43224657
>>43083773 (OP)
canon flan: rape bait
fanon flan: rape bait
I rape flan.
--- 43224905
>>43213799
>what happened to the three fairies of light during the HSiFS incident?
>>43224542
>The Three Fairies of Light didn't seem to even notice the incident until it was already winding down, so they probably didn't get a huge boost out of it (excepting maybe the overexcited Star), who seemed to have

I want to imagine they were acting like this
--- 43226225
>>43223145
>mother of 5
Is that a thing the figure she's based on did or is this something ZUN mentioned in a magazine?
--- 43227095
Sunny's in her underwear so much in the various manga. You rarely ever get to see the other two's underwear. I Think the rightmost is the only time Luna's has been shown.
--- 43227104
>>43224905
Was Star actually jogging?
--- 43227129
>>43227104
No, she was having hot sekkusu with some random villager like the whore she is.
--- 43227334
>>43226225
Figure, I don't recall anything from manga interviews saying she had kids
>>43223145
I don't mind the way her talk is translated but some lines on the wiki do go a bit over the top I'll say that much
As for combative and stubborn, you can thank the fighting games for that, given outside of Ten Desires that's all she's really got in terms of characterization
--- 43232044
The biggest divergence between canon and the fanon perception is probably Aya and Momiji.
It's very rare to see someone who doesn't depict Momiji as Aya's loyal puppy despite that canonically, Momiji is completely unable to stand the already unpopular Aya.
--- 43237789
>>43084267
I can't read nippon, what does it say?
--- 43237876
>>43083773 (OP)
>fanon: PC98 didn't happen and was retconned from existence
>canon: PC98 did happen, it's just that any contradictions caused by Windows canon overrules what PC98 says
--- 43241230
>>43237789
Here's some of it, at least https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/3135525