Mon Apr 17 01:29:39 UTC 2023

lit/17557914.txt

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+-----
+--- 17557914  
+/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction), short stories, poetry, creative writing, etc. If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/. If you want to discuss politics, go to /pol/. Philosophical discussion can go on either /lit/ or /his/, but those discussions of philosophy that take place on /lit/ should be based around specific philosophical works to which posters can refer.
+
+Check the wiki, the catalog, and the archive before asking for advice or recommendations, and please refrain from starting new threads for questions that can be answered by a search engine.
+
+/lit/ is a slow board! Please take the time to read what others have written, and try to make thoughtful, well-written posts of your own. Bump replies are not necessary.
+
+Looking for books online? Check here:
+Guide to #bookz
+https://www.geocities.ws/prissy_90/Media/Texts/BookzHelp19kb.htm
+Bookzz
+http://b-ok.cc/
+http://libgen.rs/
+Recommended Literature
+http://4chanlit.wikia.com/wiki/Recommended_Reading
+--- 18507985
+Are you incapable of making decisions without the guidance of anonymous internet strangers? Open this thread for some recommendations.

lit/21888646.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,1143 @@
+-----
+--- 21888646
+Aeneas' dripping shield edition
+>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
+>>21834540 →
+
+>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
+https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw
+
+>Mέγα τὸ ANE
+https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg
+--- 21888804
+Whenever I read an intermediate text I have to keep looking up words and my arm hurts so I Gert frustrated and stop
+--- 21888840
+>>21888804
+>I have to keep looking up words and my arm hurts so I Gert frustrated and stop
+Use Whitakers Words: https://latin-words.com/
+There is also a mobile app that has no ads and is offline. I believe you can also download it for desktop. Write out the new words on a sheet of paper. Every time you have to look up the same word twice, you will have the definition on a sheet of paper already. Put a start or asterisk next to words you keep looking up more than once. At the end of the day make flashcards only for the difficult words.
+--- 21888846
+>>21886879 →
+No one has the right to occupy another person's body without their consent.
+--- 21888951
+I'm interested in learning something, also I just stared down a deer whilst taking a piss. I'm thinking an hart for he wanted to charge me, the mangy fuck. My dick says sumerian but my other parts say do latin.
+--- 21889299
+>>21888951
+Your dick knows the personal risk to itself if you pick latin
+--- 21889312
+Gothic and Old Norse are our true cultural legacies
+--- 21889467
+>>21888646 (OP)
+I guess ancient greek learners will be able to reply
+Do you find getting inpooot with modern greek whilst learning ancient greek hinders your progress? Meaning, are you learning things that don't apply to your target language and maybe even corrupting your progress so far, is does it only help and you can keep the two things separate? I ask because I'm learning biblical Hebrew, but I'm starting to understand modern Hebrew too somehow, but I heard both are different
+--- 21889507
+>>21889467
+Not even commenting on grammar or vocabulary, modern Greek pronunciation in itself is so drastically different that it's unintelligible when spoken for someone learning ancient pronunciation conventions even if the written form might be closer.
+--- 21889508
+Every thread there are posters theorizing about read-alongs but no one ever posts Latin
+This is the first few lines of the Aeneid. Everyone learning Latin, from beginners to advanced students, would benefit from memorizing it. Print it out or write it down and do scansion. Practice saying it out aloud. Get the feel for long and short syllables, for feet, for dactyls and spondees, for elisions, for caesurae and icti. Depending on your level and experience this may be easy or difficult. Ask if you have questions.
+Once you have it memorized post your own translations. Discuss why and how you translated phrases and words. Critique each other and offer criticisms both good and bad.
+Again this may seem extremely difficult at first but stick with it. This is one of the cornerstones of Western literature, you would be doing yourself a disservice in not knowing and understanding it.
+--- 21889528
+>>21889508
+Here is a cheat sheet if you are having trouble. Don't look this up until you have tried it yourself.
+http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Testi/Vergil/Aen01.htm
+On the right hand panel find Visualizza metrica and click it to see the scansion. If you are confused about elision click the Evidenzia elisioni box. 
+This entire site is a fantastic resource for Greek and Latin, its only drawback being in Italian. If you have studied classical languages you should be able to figure out the interface regardless. 
+While you should use it to check your work and to help with troublesome passages do not use it as a crutch. It is a bad habit to go straight to the answers before attempting to figure something out yourself.
+--- 21889536
+>>21889507
+So greek doesn't have that issue, I see, a good bonus for a hard language.
+--- 21889539
+>>21889536
+>So greek doesn't have that issue,
+Doesn't have what issue?
+--- 21889585
+Input chads, have you humilitiated a grammar cuck today?
+--- 21889591
+>>21889539
+Of mistaking the modern version with the ancient one
+--- 21890213
+>>21887027 →
+I'm going to keep this brief. I don't know of any Jewish Aramaic younger than the Zohar, but I do know that it should exist. I spent the past hour going down a rabbit hole of Akkadian words preserved in NENA and nowhere else in Aramaic. I could try asking around, but it could be a bit tricky.
+--- 21890459
+>>21889467
+>>21889591
+>I ask because I'm learning biblical Hebrew, but I'm starting to understand modern Hebrew too somehow, but I heard both are different
+Not far into Hebrew, but I'd say the closeness between the classical and modern variant is one of the positives of the language! Moses being able to buy bread in a supermarket and all that...
+MH grammar seems to be just a subset of BH gammar, and the vocabulary mostly a superset. So the main problem with going from BH to MH is just the shitload of words for modern concepts you have to learn. The other direction would be more challenging, but since you're learning BH, I wouldn't worry at all about mixing it up with MH.
+--- 21890576
+>>21890459
+What uses does hebrew have between reading the original bible or having a nice stay in Israel? Seems way less usefull to me than latin or old greek material wise.
+--- 21890694
+>>21890576
+Not the best person to answer, but since you asked me:
+> Seems way less usefull to me than latin or old greek material wise.
+I agree, but that's a high bar. It's not a tier 1 language like those two, but still more useful than the vast majority of classical languages (and easier to boot).
+> What uses does hebrew have between reading the original bible or having a nice stay in Israel?
+There's an endless sea of Rabbinic literature, which you might or might not find entertaining. From al-Andalus, we also have lots of surviving secular poetry. The Dream of the Poem by Cole is a nice English anthology, if you're interested.
+From the same era, we have Arabic-inspired writings like Zabara's The Book of Delight, if you're in the mood for something oriental but can't into Arabic.
+Later on, Haskalah literature starts to make an impact in Europe.
+> or having a nice stay in Israel?
+Since this is /lit/: there's also Israeli literature. The only other classical language I can think of that opens up modern literature is Arabic, so in that regard it is more useful than Latin.
+(As an indirect advantage, Hebrew is also a natural stepping stone for Aramaic and most other AME languages, but for those, secular works will be even harder to come by.)
+--- 21890837
+>>21889467
+Doesn't sound like you know enough about either language. Reading-wise it should be of some benefit. Historical phonologies are a more complex and disputable matter.
+--- 21890907
+>>21890576
+>What uses does hebrew have between reading the original bible or having a nice stay in Israel?
+It also has KINO
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlZO-ZdjMzA [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWVUWRJFV-I [Embed]
+https://vimeo.com/510788559
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKR3vsyl6Ok [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI6AFVQIcSQ [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-bIgwDgI6Y [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5Tkh5LEjvQ [Embed]
+
+and tens of thousands of books
+https://hebrewbooks.org/
+--- 21890937
+>>21889467
+I may have stumbled onto some modern Greek every now and then since I began learning ancient Greek but the two are different enough that you simply don't want to mix things up, i.e getting input in the modern will probably do more harm than good and sway you away from idiomatic Attic
+--- 21890940
+>>21889467
+Why would learning modern Greek hinder ancient Greek progress? It only serves to help due to the shared vocab, and frankly you should NOT learn an ancient language without knowing a descendant. That'd be like learning Old Enlgish without learning modern English.
+--- 21891038
+>>21890940
+> frankly you should NOT learn an ancient language without knowing a descendant
+I'm learning Italian and Latin and I'm falling for false friends and going for Latin words when trying to speak Italian often enough that it's a problem. Would never advise a classical language learner to learn a descendant, unless he wants to learn it anyway, and even then, not at the same time.
+> That'd be like learning Old Enlgish without learning modern English.
+The reason this sounds so stupid is because everyone remotely interested in OE knows modern already. OE is probably closer to Germany anyway, and most OE learners won't ever learn German.
+--- 21891088
+>>21891038
+>I'm learning Italian and Latin and I'm falling for false friends and going for Latin words when trying to speak Italian often enough that it's a problem.
+I know French, Spanish and Italian and when I read Latin, I know not to get fooled by false friends, which simply takes 2 things: (1) etymological awareness, ie recognizing that meaning shifts over time and (2) creating separate mental categories for each language, rather than just 1 mental category for "foreign languages". And when you can see how meaning has shifted over time and see the relation between words, remembering vocab becomes child's play. So I don't think your argument is valid even though I understand where you're coming from. The bottom line is that the issue is possible to avoid.
+>The reason this sounds so stupid is because everyone remotely interested in OE knows modern already.
+But it still sounds absurd. Just apply the same logic to Latin or Greek. You wouldn't have someone who knows no Germanic languages study Germanic philology who knows no modern Germanic language. Imagine teaching a Chinese speaker Gothic before German or English. It's also the most natural order of progression to learn the modern language. Ancient languages are taught in a clinical and artificial fashion. Getting a feel for the modern language first makes the ancient one come more alive.
+--- 21891318
+>>21887955 →
+How does that work on 4chins?
+Like, we read a chapter by thread or what?
+--- 21891362
+>>21891318
+> How does that work on 4chins?
+It doesn't. The most successful one was the guy who posted a Catullus poem every day, and even that died down after a week or two.
+You either have no problems with the material, but then there's no reason to post, or you have questions, but then you can ask those questions any time.
+The only advantage of a schedule is to have people stick to it, but if the judgement of anonymous Ugaritic Clay Tablet forum users is enough, then you probably have enough self-discipline to not require motivation of that kind.
+
+It might make some sense with obscure languages (everything that's not Latin, Greek, Hebrew), just to ensure someone is around to answer questions every other week or so.
+--- 21891445
+>>21891362
+>the guy who posted a Catullus poem every day
+Think that was me, not just Catullus but selections from Cicero, Juvenal, Quintilian, and more. Longer than a couple weeks, I aimed for one per thread, but it died down because almost no one responded and the threads devolved into too much shit-flinging. 
+I also posted >>21889508
+>>21889528
+earlier and got zero responses so far. Virgil isn't the easiest author but Aeneid I.1-11 are cornerstones of Latin education.
+--- 21891510
+>>21891445
+>earlier and got zero responses so far. Virgil isn't the easiest author but Aeneid I.1-11 are cornerstones of Latin education.
+I said we should have started with Nepos or Caesar. It might be bad enough that we have to start with Fabulae Faciles or Epitome Historiae Sacrae.
+--- 21891960
+>>21891445
+>earlier and got zero responses so far
+tbqh the thread just started
+I(OP btw) tried also various output initiatives to see if they would gain some interest but aside from the first /lang/ style challenge which got some replies I guess they are either too demanding for beginners and not too interesting for those already more fluent.
+I think the thread has potential and found a sweet spot between staying afloat easily but not being too fast/shitpost-heavy, but it's still hard to get thread initiatives running
+--- 21892099
+>>21891318
+>>21891362
+>>21891445
+>>21891510
+>>21891960
+Focusing on Latin to English translation or doing Latin readalongs is a waste of time since the majority of the Latin learners on here are on chapter 4 of their textbooks and have been for the last 5 years. I think we should just stop pretending like more than 3 people in this thread can actually read Latin. We might technically have more Latin posters than Hebrew overall, but I think we have more people who can read Hebrew and Aramaic fluently than Greek and Latin. We might even have more Chinese and Sanskrit learners who are at least intermediate than L&G intermediate learners. And it seems if any of them do reach any kind of level of significant ability they end up quitting because they realize they aren't actually interested in any of the things that they are able to read. So they certainly can't discuss literature or grammar at a high level in the thread.
+
+We are running out of bullshit to argue about. We need elevate the discussion and filter out the people who have nothing to contribute. Nobody fucking cares what the best introductory Latin textbook is. There is nothing else to be said on that topic that hasn't already been debated to death and it doesn't matter because 98% of you aren't going to fucking finish it anyways. Instead I have to sit here and argue about books that I've finished with someone who hasn't even read the preface. 
+
+Let's expand the thread to medieval languages and modern literary languages like Modern Standard Arabic or even Literary Finnish or Welsh. We can also have discussions for people who want to learn French, German, or Russian with the sole intent of reading literature. /clg/ needs to be rebranded as /llg/ - Literary Languages General.
+--- 21892108
+>>21890940
+>Why would learning modern Greek hinder ancient Greek progress?
+Because now you will have two different versions of the same word which you will have to remember, for example. I also fear it would mess the intuition on grammar and the language in general that you get from constant exposure to it (you could get used modern greek grammar which would make it harder to understand ancient greek grammar intuitively).
+
+>That'd be like learning Old Enlgish without learning modern English
+This could be done but yes it would be easier learning the modern English first. Still, in theory, you would have a much easier time reaching "native" level in Old English by ONLY leading Old English then by learning Modern English and then learning Old English, supposing both had the same required amount of inpoooting material (they don't so this I just theory).
+
+>>21891038
+I guess this is more of a problem when you need to write and speak the language
+--- 21892114
+>>21891088
+>false friends
+>>21891038
+>false friends
+Don't you mean false cognates?
+--- 21892175
+>>21892099
+> the majority of the Latin learners on here are on chapter 4 of their textbooks and have been for the last 5 years
+> we should just stop pretending like more than 3 people in this thread can actually read Latin
+> if any of them do reach any kind of level of significant ability they end up quitting because they realize they aren't actually interested in any of the things that they are able to read
+Or, you know, advanced learners know how to look up things for themselves. I was actually following along with the Catullus readings back then, but what do you want me to post? "I understood everything", "I had trouble with the first word in line 5, but looked it up in OLD, I'm good now"?
+
+> Let's expand the thread to medieval languages
+They were always welcome. A short time ago, someone was talking about Old Occitan, but like with other more obscure languages, saying they're welcome won't make learners magically appear.
+> We can also have discussions for people who want to learn French, German, or Russian with the sole intent of reading literature. /clg/ needs to be rebranded as /llg/ - Literary Languages General.
+No, this also was tried in the past, but Jannies will move threads about modern languages to /int/, where there already exists a /lang/ general, so you might just as well go there.
+
+> Nobody fucking cares what the best introductory Latin textbook is.
+On that at least we agree at least.
+--- 21892191
+>>21892175
+>Or, you know, advanced learners know how to look up things for themselves
+Who's talking about looking things up? I'm talking about discussions. You don't have to think outloud and livepost your reaction to everything that you read. That wasn't the point that I was making. What are you even on about?
+>A short time ago, someone was talking about Old Occitan,
+That was ME, dumbass. 
+>No, this also was tried in the past, but Jannies will move threads about modern languages to /int/, where there already exists a /lang/ general, so you might just as well go there.
+So we can't post on /LIT/ about learning LITerary languages to read LITerature?
+--- 21892225
+>>21892099
+nah I think there's plenty of us that are at a more advanced level and mostly don't need to ask the sort of questions beginners ask, that's why I think maybe some thread initiative should be thought up that engages also non-beginners(especially in output/composition imho, we are all probably already reading some stuff and don't need to add more)
+the thread is already broad enough in scope and we mean "classical" in a rather broad sense anyway, including medieval languages, it's basically all languages that have a literary tradition but aren't modern
+I guess we could (though it already is to some degree) replace the L in clg with Literature or maybe do a cllg, literature & languages, but in any case I believe it's a fairly balanced thread as it is, we aren't having much trouble keeping it afloat ad /lit/ is slow enough for the genre and audience
+
+seriously if you have some ideas to make the thread more engaging to its lurkers, go ahead, I tried some stuff but without much success, maybe I'm bad at it
+--- 21892232
+I need to earn enough money to retire young (~45) and dedicate my life to a hobbyist academic pursuit of reading all great works of literature in their original languages? only then will I publish my first and only novel (a canonical masterpiece that endures the test of time, of course)
+--- 21892233
+>>21892225
+>mostly don't need to ask the sort of questions beginners ask
+My complaint is not that people aren't asking enough advanced questions. I'm talking about advanced *discussion*. It doesn't need to be people asking for advice. I'm not saying "gee why won't anyone ask a more interesting question".
+--- 21892245
+>>21892232
+Okay.
+--- 21892258
+>>21892191
+> Who's talking about looking things up? I'm talking about discussions. You don't have to think outloud and livepost your reaction to everything that you read. That wasn't the point that I was making. What are you even on about?
+I provided an explanation for why the thread appears to be devoid of people proficient in classical languages, even though it's not true. I even provided and example that you that you conveniently ignored. Be specific: What exactly would you have wanted me to post about the Catullus readings? Every discussion we could possibly have has been had in the past, better, and written down.
+
+>>A short time ago, someone was talking about Old Occitan,
+> That was ME, dumbass.
+Rude, and doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making. I was also shilling OHG in the past, what I'm saying is that medieval languages were always welcome here.
+
+> So we can't post on /LIT/ about learning LITerary languages to read LITerature?
+Please make that about a separate general (which will get moved to /int/, as you can see in the archives). And if you manage to sneak in modern languages here: people already bitch about how much the thread focuses on Latin, which will be a fond memory of a better time, once the Spanish learners pour in.
+--- 21892302
+>>21890576
+Holly shit.
+--- 21892328
+>>21892108
+>Because now you will have two different versions of the same word which you will have to remember, for example. I also fear it would mess the intuition on grammar and the language in general that you get from constant exposure to it
+Are you monolingual? Knowing another language does not interfere with your ability to know another, even if it's an earlier stage of the same language. See this post >>21891088 as to why this is a non-issue.
+>This could be done but yes it would be easier learning the modern English first.
+It could be done, no doubt, but in practice it's absurd. I'm just applying the same logic to Latin and Greek. It's like saying that you're too good to interact with the people who directly inherited these languages and seems just like the thing an ivory tower academic would do.
+--- 21892377
+>>21888804
+>>21888840
+There’s also a Wiktionary app.
+--- 21892417
+>>21892377
+>There’s also a Wiktionary app.
+I can't find an app. I know the website, but no solution for mobile.
+--- 21892455
+>>21892417
+It’s called Wiktionary Reader. May have been developed by a third party and not Wiktionary per se.
+--- 21892503
+>>21892455
+Is that apple only? I have android.
+--- 21892519
+>>21892503
+I use it on iPhone yeah, so idk if it’s on Android.
+--- 21892623
+>>21892232
+lmao
+--- 21892681
+>>21892099
+>We might technically have more Latin posters than Hebrew overall, but I think we have more people who can read Hebrew and Aramaic fluently than Greek and Latin
+Hebrew chads! We just keep winning!
+This deserves a meme
+
+The virgin Latin alumnus
+> hears about the many famous Latin authors and books, finds all of them boring when he actually manages to read them (after hundreds of hours studying it)
+> boring American alphabet he already knows, has only a few distortions, one letter means nothing
+> dead language, no one can speak it, has no modern counterpart, all it's lingustic descendants sound nothing alike
+> grammar method cuck, studying is physically painful and frustrating
+> only even likes Latin because of a hollywood movie-induced admiration for ancient globohomo which enslaved and killed many of his own ancestors and still runs the western worldfri the shadows
+> language of roman catholicism, not only NOT the religion of Jesus, but also a globohomo tool
+> will never be able to SHOCK the natives, because there are none, and it's descendants will just think you're a freak for trying to talk in Latin
+> will never even touch a woman, let alone get a roman girlfriend (which does not exist anyway)
+
+ תַּלְמִיד Hebrew chad The
+> wants to read literally one single book, the best of all time, know his efforts were worth it when he reads it
+> interesting and funny squiggly drawings alphabet, each letter with a meaning of it's own
+> undead language, has an entire country dedicated to it's modern counterpart, can be readily understood and interact with natives even though he's learning the ancient version
+> inpooooot method chad, has the best language course ever devised in history (aka Aleph with Beth) right off the bat for a delightful learning 
+> likes Hebrew because it's the language of the Israelites, the chosen people of God, also admires the proud history of Israel and it's constant struggle for freedom and self-determination
+> language of Judaism, the religion of Jesus
+> not only can SHOCK the natives, will also get major respect from all your compatriots for being able to write their name in Hebrew letters
+> will eventually get a jewish girlfriend
+--- 21892722
+>>21892681
+> This deserves a meme
+--- 21892743
+>>21892722
+>latin cuck seethes with a basedjak
+--- 21892763
+>>21892232
+Do it on the side, it's better to spread your efforts through time
+--- 21892825
+>>21892681
+Can you really learn Hebrew by only watching Aleph with Beth?
+--- 21892870
+>>21892722
+>>21892743
+>Gee golly willickers, this calls for a new meme!
+--- 21893007
+>>21892825
+It depends on what you mean by learning Hebrew. You'll need to go through their study schedule which involves more than just watching the videos.
+--- 21893013
+>>21893007
+>You'll need to go through their study schedule which involves more than just watching the videos.
+What do I have to do
+--- 21893090
+>>21893013
+Just open one of the learning schedules and you'll see the details
+https://freehebrew.online/resources/
+
+It involves watching the same videos many times, pronouncing the words, writing the alphabet letters, reading the transcript of some videos twice, doing the quizzes.
+--- 21893202
+>>21889508
+There's a scansion practice website out there. It's much better than doing printouts.
+--- 21893378
+>>21893202
+>t. zoomer
+--- 21893582
+Does anyone know where I can find an English-Ancient Greek dictionary? either an online tool or a pdf. 
+I can find plenty of Ancient Greek-English but none of the other way around
+--- 21893692
+>>21893582
+Are you sure the ones you’re looking at don’t actually have it both ways? For instance, I have a little Cassell’s Latin dictionary where the first half is Latin to English and the second half is English to Latin. But it’s not very apparent by looking at its title that it does both.
+--- 21893706
+>>21893692
+The latin ones I have do indeed but the greek ones I have do not.
+--- 21893730
+How is John Milton's Latin poetry?
+--- 21893751
+>posthumously kills /clg/
+--- 21894274
+>>21893202
+>There's a scansion practice website out there
+Link?
+--- 21894312
+>>21881508 →
+i would be interested in reading nepos or caesar. eutropius is fine too.
+--- 21894710
+>>21893751
+he's really opening up the throttle ch. xvi, anoni..
+>Italia inter duo maria interest,
+Italy lies between two seas,
+>quorum alterum, quod supra Italiam situm est,
+of which one, which is situated above Italy,
+>mare Superum sive Hadriaticum appellatur,
+is called the Superior or Adriatic sea,
+>alterum, infra Italiam situm, mare Inferum sive Tuscum.
+the other, situated below Italy, the Inferior or Tuscan.
+--- 21894736
+>>21894710
+> ch. xvi
+Hardest chapter before the infamous poetry chapter at the end of the book. Keep it up.
+--- 21894782
+>>21893582
+LSJ online has both, including not few english->greek idiomatic expressions
+--- 21894987
+This is mostly a question of English: what is the difference between "he lives" and "he does live"? D'Ooge clearly distinguishes those two and I don't see a difference in meaning, just in emphasis. But I'm an ESL. Can someone who speaks English natively help?
+--- 21895024
+>>21894987
+> Can someone who speaks English natively help?
+I'm not a native speaker, but I'll try regardless: "He does live" confirms something said earlier. This is more important in Latin, which lacks a word for "yes" and instead commonly repeats the verb for confirmation:
+> Does he live in this city? He does.
+> Habitatne in hac urbe? Habitat.
+--- 21895103
+>>21894987
+I think the difference is easier to see with other verbs, e.g
+he eats cabbage
+he is eating cabbage
+he does eat cabbage
+the first can most often have an iterative/frequentative meaning, i.e "he" does this often, not necessarily something "he" is doing in that moment
+the second has a more continuative present aspect, something that is definitely happening as the speaker is talking
+the third as the other anon said carries a contrast with something previously said
+--- 21895166
+>>21894782
+I don't know what LSG is
+--- 21895191
+>>21895024
+>>21895103
+Thanks anons for your explanations. But the thing is that this idea of confirming something said earlier or carrying some contrast does not really make sense in the context it is used, which is the question "where does he live?" (picrel). I don't even know how he wants me to translate this, "where does he do live?" perhaps.
+--- 21895204
+>>21895191
+The "1" is above the "habitat" in the question, not above the "habitat" in the answer, and question does indeed translate to "Where does Sextus live". So yes, it's really not used in a confirming sense here, the "does" is just a quirk of English grammar.
+--- 21895209
+>>21895204
+I can accept this as an answer but then D'Ooge's remark seems so trivial. He would be basically saying: "remember than when translating this question to English you have to use the auxiliar verb 'to do'" which is obvious. I thought there was something more advanced going on.
+--- 21895244
+>>21894987
+>I don't see a difference in meaning, just in emphasis
+A difference in emphasis can be a difference in meaning. Compare "I did do that" and "I *DID* do that!" In the second case, there's clearly extra/different meaning implied. The implication is that the person speaking is responding to some doubt, possibly unreasonable doubt. The extra meaning could be written "I did, and I'm annoyed that you are even asking whether I did (because it implies I'm incompetent)" or "Yes, I did, and I'm annoyed you're asking fifty fucking times, didn't you hear me the first time" etc. 
+
+That's what the other anon means by referring to an antecedent situation. "He DOES live" becomes "(yes,) he does indeed live," i.e., it implies the thing being said was somehow in doubt in the preceding conversation/situation. 
+
+However here >>21895191 I think it's just a neutral meaning like >>21895204 says.
+
+>>21895209
+It's important because things that would be conveyed with spoken emphasis, word order, etc. in Latin only map onto English equivalents imperfectly and English specifically requires an auxiliary verb for emphasis and/or contrasting/concessive clauses (including uses less frequent today; cf. "I do declare"; "I DO go there, JUST not that often"; "DO you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife?" "I do (so take her)"). 
+
+Technically it is just grammatically necessary to specify that the Latin verb by itself can have this meaning in English, rare in ordinary language, but still part of its "official" structure, and which used to have more use beyond rare cases these as well. Like in poetry. Helpful link:
+https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/588827/whats-the-grammatical-logic-of-emphatic-phrases-like-i-do-eat-sushi
+--- 21895260
+>>21895244
+I forgot to mention, if you want to see its different functions in older English, think Elizabethan:
+>He liveth there.
+>He doth live there. 
+These are two subtly different meanings. The emphasis is being used to highlight that the main/non-auxiliary verb is in some way doubtful or meant in a specific way that requires attention. You can see how it becomes modern "I DID see him, I JUST didn't tell anyone" concessive style "do." The basic logic is the same but it's more stereotyped to stark concessiveness.
+
+Probably the only remnants of this kind of "do" in English are comical archaisms like "I do declare."
+--- 21895366
+>>21895166
+https://lsj.gr/wiki/Main_Page
+it's basically the quintessential resource for english speakers
+--- 21896631
+βήτω οὐρανὸν εἴσω
+--- 21897219
+>>21894274
+For actually doing scansion, go to hexameter.co. For a fully scanned text (a cheat sheet or reference tool), go to hypotactic.com
+--- 21898122
+>>21890576
+Esoteric masturbation for /x/-files
+--- 21898323
+>>21895366
+That sucks. Just use Logeion or even Perseus. The CGL has already superceded the LSJ.
+--- 21898820
+>>21898323
+pretty sure those don't have English->Greek like LSJ
+--- 21899039
+>secundus
+nary a more deceptive little guy in any language
+--- 21899073
+>>21892099
+>We might even have more Chinese and Sanskrit learners who are at least intermediate than L&G intermediate learners.
+我可看尼
+--- 21899103
+>>21899073
+》尼
+你*
+--- 21899243
+>>21898122
+Elaborate.
+--- 21899257
+>>21899073
+I think in this context they're talking about Classical Chinese.
+--- 21899269
+>>21899257
+that's 马马虎虎 to me (also if you wanna get into classical you should definitely learn some Canto)
+--- 21899479
+>>21899073
+>>21899103
+>>21899257
+>>21899269
+Tell me how to learn Classical Chinese. NOW
+--- 21899506
+>>21899479
+first learn the strokes
+then learn the radicals
+then grind the hanzi
+then read the 四大名著
+
+here you can start with this:
+https://youtu.be/VYBl5rjjtKU [Embed]
+--- 21899756
+medieval europeans like newton or leibniz wrote their works in latin, so I assume they, obviously, couls read and write it and also speak it. when it comes to speaking, do 
+>we
+have an idea or know how they were speaking it? I mean, were they using the ecclesiastical pronunciation? I could be wrong but using the classical pronunciation seems to be a more modern thing (besides the ancient romans themselves using it)
+--- 21899827
+>newton
+>leibniz
+>medieval
+--- 21899835
+>>21899756
+oh hey I can actually answer this one
+
+due to french blah blah blah french pronunciation blah blah blah but there was a movement in 16th century oxford to get people to speak in classical pronunciation which was started by the work "De recta Latini Graecique sermonis pronunctiatione". It was later forbidden and then unforbidden nearly 2 decades later, but the interim period really messed up the pronunciation. this ended up forcing a very english sort of pronunciation with regard to diphthongs. so essentially they would have spoken a bastardized version of the classical pronunciation
+--- 21900306
+>>21899756
+Each one used the traditional pronunciation from their country. There are a lot of ways of pronouncing Latin, not just the reconstructed and the so called ecclesiastical (which is actually just the traditional Italian pronunciation).
+--- 21900308
+Which one of the female Latin/Greek YouTubers is the cutest?
+--- 21900914
+>>21900308
+Satura when she had that post-partem glow
+--- 21901112
+>>21898323
+>superceded
+no
+--- 21901562
+>>21899269
+You don't have to learn any modern Chinese language to learn Classical Chinese, just like you don't have to learn a Romance language to learn Latin.
+>>21899479
+Apologies for the delay, I was sleeping.
+Personally I started learning with this textbook:
+https://archive.org/details/introductiontoli00branuoft
+It's targeted primarily at those who have some basic grounding in Mandarin, but you don't have to know Mandarin to use it (I didn't when I read it); it does use Wade-Giles, which may take some getting used to. r/classicalchinese's wiki page also has some other links to resources:
+http://old.reddit.com/r/classicalchinese/wiki/
+(Full disclosure: I compiled this page.)
+--- 21901572
+>>21899479
+>>21901562
+Oh, yes, I'll also add that Lexicity has an Old Chinese section:
+http://lexicity.com/language/oldchinese/
+Lexilogos also has some Classical Chinese resources mixed in with their general 'Chinese' resources:
+https://www.lexilogos.com/chinois_dictionnaire.htm
+http://lexicity.com/language/oldchinese/
+And Lexi
+--- 21901575
+>>21901562
+>>21901572
+I recommend looking through the available resources and deciding which suits you best; everyone's different.
+--- 21901797
+>>21900308
+Seconding for Satura Lanx. I DEMAND a wholesome and fertile librarian wife.
+--- 21901807
+>>21901572
+/oldchinese/
+What's the difference between Old Chinese, Classical Chinese, and Literary Chinese?
+--- 21901931
+>>21901807
+Old Chinese is the spoken language of the roughly Shang to Han dynasties. Classical Chinese is the written form of Old Chinese, and Literary Chinese that plus later imitations of written Old Chinese used as a literary language (at least in the narrow sense, often 'Classical Chinese' and 'Literary Chinese' are used interchangeably). It's not known exactly how closely Classical Chinese resembles spoken Old Chinese, but in my view it's probably basically the same language, just a bit more concise and polished.
+--- 21902191
+>>21898820
+Logeion does have this feature now via its Retro tool. Also, see Morpho. All of this is packaged with Logeion.
+--- 21903055
+>>21902191
+nice, didn't know about Retro
+I mean still, does it have example phrases like LSJ? just now I kept missing the point of this expression "τοὺς αὐτούς ἐχθροὺς καὶ φίλους νομίζειν" other than the most literal sense, LSJ comes to rescue with an example usage that makes it clear https://lsj.gr/wiki/%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%AF%CE%B1_%E1%BD%A5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5_%CF%84%CE%BF%E1%BD%BA%CF%82_%CE%B1%E1%BD%90%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%82_%E1%BC%90%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%81%CE%BF%E1%BD%BA%CF%82_%CE%BA%CE%B1%E1%BD%B6_%CF%86%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%82_%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B6%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BD
+--- 21903617
+>>21901562
+Do you crossdress all the time, or do you dress normally when you go to the grocery store?
+--- 21903640
+>>21903055
+jesus christ non-roman urls are so fucking ugly
+--- 21903699
+/clg/, what practices do you recommend for learning Latin? Are there any specific apps or books/workbooks for beginners that you would recommend? I've used Duolingo for a while but find it not in-depth enough to truly understand the language.
+--- 21903714
+>>21903699
+I don't latin well but I read the first couple chapters of "Lingua Latina per se Illustrata" and that was pretty good. Maybe start with that?
+--- 21903718
+>>21903699
+repoasting another anon's good comment
+--- 21904240
+Can anyone reccommend some good resources for Biblical Hebrew?
+--- 21904249
+>>21904240
+my lord's diary desu
+--- 21904375
+>>21903699
+LLPSI
+Wheelock's Latin if you want more explicit grammar study
+Keep a journal to practice composition
+
+By the time you finish the LLPSI series you'll be ready to start working with normal Latin texts
+--- 21904607
+>>21904375
+w-what did Mr. Wheelock mean by this
+--- 21904795
+>>21903699
+Duolingo is trash
+Any book for learning Latin, and I mean any, even the hated ones, will teach you better than Duolingo, aka language candy crush.
+--- 21905222
+>"I'm using duolingo but I think I need a textbook, which book should I pick?"
+Everyone above me is a fucking idiot for replying to that no life whackjob who posts the same comment in every single thread just to start some shit. If he gets no replies then he'll usually try at least 2 or 3 more times by just rephrasing the same question. This has been answered enough times already. Stop giving this guy oxygen. He already admitted that he thinks learning classical languages is a waste of time, so he comes here just to derail the thread for his own amusement.
+--- 21905225
+>>21904240
+https://freehebrew.online/
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kxj7JIHIHM [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEJYWpZV2TM [Embed]
+--- 21905237
+>>21905222
+It sounds like a pretty typical question for a beginner, and this thread is for discussing classical languages and asking questions. And how exactly would asking this sort of question "derail the thread"? What specifically makes you think this is the same person asking the same question rather than multiple beginners asking for an incredibly common sort of advice? Schizo
+--- 21905244
+>>21905222
+>derail
+it's free bumps, chill
+--- 21905276
+>>21903699
+>specific apps
+put the phone down zoomer
+--- 21905294
+>>21903699
+>prepare text, notepad, pen or pencil
+>read
+>when you come to a word or phrase you do not understand or recall write it down
+>keep reading
+>try to comprehend as much as possible
+>stop at end of section (length determined by you) 
+>now go through dictionary and define all the words on your list
+>also look up grammatical terms, consult references, review textbooks if necessary
+>reread section referring to notes only when necessary
+>repeat
+You may have to read a section 5 or 6 times but eventually you will not need notes and will comprehend the language itself.
+The above method is guaranteed to work. It separates Greek/Latin from English as much as possible and keeps you focused on one aspect at a time. It also provides a handy reference of your progress over time and illustrates your weak points. If the same word keeps showing up in your notes then you should focus on learning it.
+--- 21905882
+>>21905294
+>It also provides a handy reference of your progress over time and illustrates your weak points
+Any more specific advice on how to track your progress besides the wordlist?
+--- 21905965
+>>21905882
+For vocab? no.
+As for general skill passages should be easier. Go back and reread something, while you may have forgotten some words it should be noticeably easier even if a long time has passed. 
+Try sight reading a different work or author. If you struggle that's OK. 
+If you stick with it and keep reading and studying you will get better over time. Not sure how to 'track' that. 
+I guarantee you will not improve by f5ing on 4chan. You can ask as many questions about learning as you like or you can just learn. 30 minutes a day devoted to study will take you much farther than worrying about specific learning methods, books, ways to track progress etc. There is no one perfect way. Just read.
+--- 21906172
+>clg wasn't shit for 12 hours
+tam laetus sum ut fors mentulam meam non praecidam
+--- 21906809
+>>21888646 (OP)
+hello frens which textbook for ancient greek is the most enjoyable? i had great pleasure studying it at school and am going to pick it up again
+--- 21907062
+>>21906809
+luv me my Athenaze, simpel as
+--- 21907071
+>>21907062
+What makes it better over these 3?
+--- 21907103
+Okay, so I've got to a point where I know the grammar and core vocab pretty well. But how do I wean myself off being dependant on a dictionary every time I read? I keep on reading but I can never make the jump to reading fluently.
+--- 21907109
+>>21907071
+idk, didn't read those
+--- 21907123
+>>21907109
+why u love athenaze
+--- 21907154
+>>21907123
+well paced approach, cool story, never felt overwhelming, still solid grammar reference
+I'm talking about the Italian version btw
+--- 21907202
+If the personal pronoun "mei" can't be used to show possession, what about its adjective forms mei/meae? Is it good Latin to express an endophoric construction like "this x of mine" as:
+>ea amicula meae
+this mistress of mine
+--- 21907219
+>>21907202
+nah, not in good classical Latin, even in Romance that idiomatic expression simply doesn't work
+you'll find such use only in verbs taking the genitive, e.g memento mei
+--- 21907484
+>>21905237
+I'm not the same anon who called him out, but it's obvious that the posts are made by the same guy, and it obvious that you are him too.
+--- 21907849
+>>21907103
+>Okay, so I've got to a point where I know the grammar and core vocab pretty well. But how do I wean myself off being dependant on a dictionary every time I read? I keep on reading but I can never make the jump to reading fluently.
+This has already been answered here: >>21905294 and here: >>21905965
+--- 21908385
+>>21903617
+I usually dress androgynously, occasionally specifically femininely; I can't think of the last time I crossdressed (i.e. wore a specifically and unambiguously masculine article of clothing).
+--- 21908396
+>>21908385
+How's the Esperanto going?
+--- 21908401
+>>21890907
+אתה ישראלי? The video about russian olim was really funny, I love Keren Mor especially in Kupa Rashit.
+--- 21908417
+>>21892681
+Hebrew Chads unite!!!
+צ'אדי כל העולם התאחדו!!!
+What's Aleph with Beth?
+--- 21908443
+>>21908396
+Fine, thank you. Why are you doing this?
+--- 21908679
+>>21908443
+Different guy, I was just seeing if you were who I thought you were. Didn't mean to interrupt your discussion with the other guy.
+--- 21908683
+>>21903699
+--- 21908786
+Why do deponent verbs exist? I'm used to them now but they're weird and I haven't detected any logic or pattern behind them.
+--- 21908815
+>>21908786
+see the Greek middle voice
+--- 21909637
+>>21908786
+PIE supposedly(though not sure how strong the argument is for supposing a later development of the passive) had only active and middle voice distinction, middle voice meaning an action which has some "object" so to speak but its effect also affects the subject, many middle voice verbs ended up deponent in Latin, and you'll notice they often have this characteristic of not being purely transitive in a way
+e.g Latin sequor is a direct cognate with Greek hepomai with the same meaning inherited directly from PIE, but I guess in the latter language the distinction is more clear given the three voices
+--- 21909928
+Ancient languages are for turbo nerds that like role playing in real life. I will just learn modern languages and read all the modern translations.
+--- 21910306
+>>21909928
+Learning multiple modern languages to read ancient works is incredibly retarded. All that will do is give you the interpretation of different translators, which is no different than reading multiple translations into the same language. Fuck whoever translated the Iliad into French, just read Lattimore, Fitzgerald, Fagles, Pope, etc.
+--- 21910598
+>>21908679
+If you're saying you thought I was the Esperanto tranny, I am.
+--- 21910934
+>>21909928
+I will just rest on the laurels of English ubiquity and assume if it isn't already translated it doesn't exist.
+--- 21912193
+would trying out llpsi be a good idea if you still have a vague idea of the language from latin classes in middle school and are already used to 4 of the 5 cases because you're german?
+--- 21912217
+>>21912193
+btw, i'm not really against using a textbook
+i just want to avoid a situation where i feel like i'm just trying to remember grammar the way i do information as that has lead to some headaches in the past (not talking about latin)
+--- 21912344
+>>21912193
+its a fucking book just download and look at it yourself
+--- 21912604
+>>21912344
+You're right. I previously checked out the first 2 chapters and thought it was pretty easy, so I imagine I'd only be able to tell if I went through quite a lot of it and wanted to hear what people on here thought before spending some time checking it further out. But in the end I will probably end up reading through it as supplementary material at least anyway so I'm going to find out if it's worth my time at that point. 
+I just wanted to know if it continues being that easy while still going through all of the (basic) grammar (at least by the end of the second book) as that would make the whole thing very painless for me.
+--- 21912708
+>>21909928
+>Ancient languages are for turbo nerds that like role playing in real life
+Yes, and we will outbreed you. You mad?
+--- 21912715
+>>21909928
+>>21910306
+After you start learning an ancient language you realize how baby tier easy learning modern languages is
+--- 21912718
+>>21912604
+I think many have said there are some "bumps" along the road so to speak, you should read the story until you get to a point you'll be reading the book as it's supposed to be, e.g reading and learning in context
+--- 21912733
+>>21908417
+>What's Aleph with Beth?
+Only one of the best free online language courses so far in human history
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEJYWpZV2TM [Embed]
+It could only be perfect if they did something like the Mormons do with intense immersive training but online somehow
+--- 21912773
+>>21912604
+there's a companion book that explains the grammar of each chapter if you get stuck
+--- 21913049
+>>21912193
+>>21912604
+Get Reading Latin by Jones and Sidwell. It's written for people like you specifically. Mature beginners and people who have had some Latin in the past and need to refresh.
+--- 21913169
+Anyone here studying classical chinese?
+--- 21913451
+>>21913049
+I can't stand that book writing "parvus" as "paruus"
+--- 21913571
+>>21913451
+>I don't care if lowercase "v" instead of "u" is historically inaccurate and anachronistic, its more comfortable for me to read and makes the experience less confusing!
+>NOOOOO you can't write "j" instead of "i" for words like "Iulius" or "Ianuarius"! I don't care if it's more comfortable for you and makes the experience less confusing! It's historically inaccurate and anachronistic!
+Latincels are about as consistent as my bowels.
+--- 21913606
+>>21913571
+>historically inaccurate
+No one says this who has done any study of palaeography whatsoever
+--- 21913618
+>>21913571
+>Latincels
+Latinxcels*
+--- 21914131
+>>21912715
+What's so special about ancient languages, just the absence of media and native speakers to talk to?
+--- 21914138
+>>21913606
+They wrote it as a V-like shape in some contexts, but there was no correspondence to whether it was a consonant or a vowel like there is in our usage.
+--- 21914153
+>>21913169
+Hello, I'm studying Classical Chinese. I can invite you to a Discord server for it if you like.
+--- 21914308
+>>21914153
+this is some van with free candy shit
+--- 21914314
+>>21914308
+kek
+--- 21914344
+>>21914308
+I assure you there's nothing suspicious about the server, and anyway I didn't start it.
+--- 21914836
+>>21913571
+Oh no, meanwhile Anthony looks like a YES chad.
+--- 21915188
+>>21912708
+But hasidim speak also modern Hebrew(nearly all of them). אתה חסידי?
+>>21912733
+Seems interesting. I don't need it, because I'm teaching Biblical Hebrew rn, but I'd love to find something similar for Aramaic (biblical or Talmudic).
+--- 21915422
+>>21914131
+Go ahead and learn Quechua, Swahili, and Wolaitta. Go talk to those folks while I read Hesiod.
+--- 21915854
+>>21915422
+I don't understand how this response is relevant- I'm asking what makes ancient languages special in regards to difficulty of learning.
+--- 21916141
+>>21915188
+> I don't need it, because I'm teaching Biblical Hebrew rn, but I'd love to find something similar for Aramaic (biblical or Talmudic).
+They have a sister channel for Koine, so I hope they'll have one for Biblical Aramaic one day as well, even if it's still years away.
+--- 21916520
+>>21916141
+>>21916141
+>biblical aramaic
+Does it really need it's own channel? I mean I understand if you are going all the way to learning Imperial Aramaic or even Jewish Babylonian/Palestinian Aramaic for the Talmud. In the Bible you only have one book with Daniel and then some parts of Ezra. How many unique words is that?
+--- 21916639
+>>21916520
+An Aramaic channel wouldn't have to be on the same scale as the others, would just be nice to have some spoken comprehensive inpoot.
+Regardless, even the 100+ videos they have on their Hebrew channel are still far, far short of addressing even the entirety of the most common vocabulary.
+--- 21916644
+>>21916639
+> comprehensive
+comprehensible I meant, ofc
+--- 21916662
+>>21916639
+>Comprehensible aramaic
+This guy looks like he's doing that
+https://www.youtube.com/@bibhebrew/videos
+
+Also-
+It's not really comprehensible input but the guys who do the Daily Dose of Hebrew/Greek/Latin also have an Aramaic channel. They basically break down verses. I guess if you want some help it's useful, but not exactly what you were looking for. 
+
+>Hebrew
+https://www.youtube.com/@dailydoseofhebrew819/
+>Aramaic
+https://www.youtube.com/@dailydoseofaramaic5983/
+>Latin
+https://www.youtube.com/@DailyDoseofLatin
+>Greek
+https://www.youtube.com/@DailyDoseofGreek
+--- 21916683
+>>21916662
+>https://www.youtube.com/@bibhebrew/videos
+> Immersion Ugaritic
+What a madman (in a good way). Thanks. Still too early for me to take up another language, but good to know there's Aramaic content out there.
+--- 21917218
+>Hector breached into the camp
+--- 21917627
+>>21916683
+I like his Akkadian videos. I'm studying Akkadian, but I don't like it that much.
+I feel that learning "forgotten" languages is waste of time in most cases. If someone learns a modern language, they can communicate with native and non-native speakers of this language.
+If someone learns a dead but still used language (like sanskrit, Latin, Old Slavonic etc) they can read texts written in those languages, and they can start a polemic with them by writing a book in this language.
+However "forgotten" languages are not only dead, but they are not important for any living culture, and there could be no polemic with the text. There are academic debates, but only from the perspective of an outsider.
+Does anyone agree with my perspective? I still think that learning Akkadian is fun, I just think I could be learning a modern or sacred language in the same time (I love Semitic languages, so I think Amharic/Ge'ez would be a better choice).
+--- 21917685
+>>21917627
+You should try Syriac.
+--- 21917734
+>>21915854
+It certainly didn't sound that way. It sounded like you were stating that ancient languages have no appeal, unlike modern languages.
+--- 21917761
+>>21917734
+>It certainly didn't sound that way. It sounded like you were stating that ancient languages have no appeal, unlike modern languages.
+He's trolling. It's this one guy who trolls the thread everyday. He's incoherently contradicting himself because he's not actually trying to make sense. He blatantly insults everyone by saying we are "turbo nerds" wasting our time and then acts like he didn't do anything. Just ignore him and stop giving him oxygen.
+--- 21917772
+>>21917761
+>He blatantly insults everyone by saying we are "turbo nerds"
+This is a board dedicated to the discussion of literature, and we somehow stand out especially as turbonerds? Good lord
+--- 21917789
+>>21917772
+There are a few of these refugees from 'other boards' that come to /his/ to talk about haplogroups and /lit/ to talk about movie adaptations of sffg novels. When people don't take their bait, they jump into individual threads and feel left out of the conversation so they just shitpost.
+--- 21917882
+>>21917627
+>Ge'ez
+Is there even anything worth reading, that isn't related to Christianity, written in it (I mean stuff that isn't just translated from Greek)? Also, isn't it only used by monks as a liturgical languange these days and might as well be dead if you're not planning on hanging out with a bunch of orthodox monks? It looks pretty cool, but I feel like you'd get even less out of it than Akkadian considering the smaller corpus.
+--- 21918443
+>>21914131
+>What's so special about ancient languages
+Lack of material for Comprehensible Input, no natives to speak to or hear from, few if any things to use the language for and usually completely different from anything your heard or read before
+--- 21918471
+>>21916141
+They said they're still years away from finishing their Hebrew course so yeah, at least 3 years away
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8GfIhf3lXQ [Embed]
+
+They do cover verbs but do they cover all the verb forms? If so they would have finished all you need to get started
+https://www.youtube.com/@AlephwithBeth/search?query=verb
+--- 21918488
+>>21916639
+Vocabulary isn't the biggest obstacle, you acquire vocabulary simply by reading and listening. The biggest hurdle really is learning the alien structures of the language. Say a language has 1 million different words but only 5 cases and 3 verb types. If you got the cases and verbs really well but only say 200 words, you could easily start inpoooting with native content.
+--- 21918615
+If agartha is real as well as hollow Earth, what would languages would most likely be better understood by the inhabitants there in the underground? 
+>>21917627
+I think forgotten languages would turn out to be quite useful for my question
+--- 21918715
+>>21917734
+I would have thought it was clear by context since it was in response to a comment specifically about the difficulty of learning ancient languages vis-a-vis modern languages. Sorry my wording wasn't clear enough.
+>>21917761
+I think you're confusing me with someone else. I can't recall ever calling someone a 'turbo nerd'; I wouldn't consider that an insult.
+--- 21918718
+>>21918443
+What about the ones for which such material has specifically been made?
+--- 21918738
+>>21918718
+>Comprehensible Input
+>What about the ones for which such material has specifically been made?
+Inpoooot dorks never have an answer for this.
+--- 21918752
+>>21918718
+>What about the ones for which such material has specifically been made?
+Those are as simple to learn as any modern language, you just need time like every native learner to acquire the language. What ancient languages even have such material? I only know of Hebrew, Greek and Latin, but where are the Old Norse Comprehensible Input courses? There isn't even an Icelandic CI course. Where is the Sumerian CI course? What about the Aztecs language whose language name I don't know? And so on
+
+>>21918738
+>Inpoooot dorks never have an answer for this.
+What are you talking about grammar cuck? The more content for inpooot the easier a language is
+--- 21918758
+>>21918752
+>What are you talking about grammar cuck?
+You mean CHAD
+>What about the Aztecs language whose language name I don't know?
+Nahuatl
+--- 21918774
+>>21918752
+>where are the Old Norse Comprehensible Input courses?
+And yet, somehow, people still manage to learn Old Norse
+--- 21918780
+>>21918774
+>And yet, somehow, people still manage to learn Old Norse
+He doesn't get it, don't bother.
+--- 21918817
+>>21918774
+>And yet, somehow, people still manage to learn Old Norse
+>>21918780
+>He doesn't get it, don't bother
+You don't get it, dumbasses. It's obvious you can "learn" a language through memorizing the grammar, but you will never be fluent in that language unless you somehow manage to find a way to inpooot and even then trying to learn grammar before the inpoooting would make the process extremely hard.
+
+I didn't say it was impossible to learn a language with CI courses, but it is impossible to acquire a language without CI.
+
+And to answer the anon, there is a very good CI resource called being born in Iceland since Icelandic is very similar to Old Norse, what I said is that there isn't a CI course online.
+
+You can bet your asses no native in history ever acquired their language, specially an ancient language, by studying grammar
+
+But keep deluding yourselves thinking you know the language while you translate it to English and from English inside your head
+--- 21918822
+>>21918817
+>You can bet your asses no native in history ever acquired their language, specially an ancient language, by studying grammar
+>>21918817
+The fundamental misunderstanding is that you people don't differentiate learning a native language and learning a secondary language. You also fail to distinguish between 7 IQ infants who shit on themselves trying to learn how to ask for their moms tits vs a competent adult trying to learn a language alone in their bedroom. The idea that you have to mimic a baby learning their native language when you are learning a second language as an adult is just nonsensical.
+--- 21919145
+>>21918817
+I agree CI and ouput is absolutely essential in order to acquire a language, I don't think you're that fucked if you start by learning to translate from your target language though. I can hardly remember a time where I wasn't fully fluent in English, but I must've been translating in my head for the first few years until I got enough CI and just started thinking in it directly. Learning the grammar first is only going to hinder you if you forever force yourself to analyze every single component of every sentence you ever read instead of just inputing as much you can once you have the basic grammatical structure in your head and upon which you can rely until you have fully acquired the language. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I knew more about English grammar at 12 than I do now and yet my ability in the language is a lot higher than it was back then. I frankly don't think it's possible to really skip that step at all; you can, at most, minimize how long you've got to be at that stage if you can deal with just learning through input rather than having a logical grammatical structure to rely on. 
+Any adult who has already acquired a language isn't going to need nearly as long to learn a second/third one as they may think. You already have a lot of experience when it comes to language acquisition and your brain is far more developed than that of a child's; using "a child's methods" is going to be 100x faster now than it was as an infant.
+--- 21919194
+What's the best pronunciation to read Ancient Greek in? Erasmian? Actual reconstructed Classical Attic? Reconstructed Koine? Modern?
+--- 21919230
+>>21917761
+You're right. Thanks for the reminder.
+--- 21919243
+Today I begin Wheelock's Latin :)
+--- 21919282
+>>21918488
+> Say a language has 1 million different words but only 5 cases and 3 verb types. If you got the cases and verbs really well but only say 200 words, you could easily start inpoooting with native content.
+No way, unless your idea of inpooting is struggling through sentences by looking up every second word.
+LLPSI part 1 covers all conjugations/declensions and introduces around 2000 words (a superset of the DCC list), and even then you're BARELY ready to read an annotated Caesar, one of the easiest authors.
+For modern languages you might have some point, because at least you can watch children cartoons, which technically are native content.
+--- 21919288
+>>21917627
+>Does anyone agree with my perspective? I still think that learning Akkadian is fun, I just think I could be learning a modern or sacred language in the same time (I love Semitic languages, so I think Amharic/Ge'ez would be a better choice).
+Hi, it's Ethiopianon. Amharic and Ge'ez are fairly distant from each other. Tigre and Tigrinya are living sister languages of Ge'ez. Because Amharic, while being a Semitic language, exhibits a lot of Cushitic influence, expect it to be more challenging.
+>>21917882
+>Is there even anything worth reading, that isn't related to Christianity, written in it (I mean stuff that isn't just translated from Greek)? Also, isn't it only used by monks as a liturgical languange these days and might as well be dead if you're not planning on hanging out with a bunch of orthodox monks? It looks pretty cool, but I feel like you'd get even less out of it than Akkadian considering the smaller corpus.
+Yes, it is a dead language, but there is plenty of stuff outside of translations of Greek. There are Muslim books. There are Arabic and Syriac Christian books in translation (all via Arabic). Although fewer in number than other languages, there are native Ethiopian works, including chronicles and saints lives. There are translations of Arabic secular material too.
+
+To both of you, I would say that Akkadian has a suitably large corpus, and that's only counting the stuff in museums. There's more than enough to occupy translators for the rest of our lives. The Epic of Gilgamesh got me into Semitic studies, and one day, I hope to learn Akkadian. For me, Ge'ez was a worthwhile language to learn and one that I continue to work on. That may not be the case for everyone, but more people really should learn the language.
+--- 21919296
+>>21919282
+>For modern languages you might have some point, because at least you can watch children cartoons, which technically are native content.
+200 words is a bit low even for stuff like that. It's literally just one page of vocab. It'd be a struggle to understand much of anything without pausing every few seconds and looking up some words.
+--- 21919310
+>>21919288
+What resources are there to learn it? Would you say knowing some spoken Tigrinya would help? Could I brute force it by learning to speak/read Tigrinya and make my way through one of the few academic grammar books? I grew up hearing a lot of it, but never bothered outputting much so I can understand spoken conversation pretty well as long it doesn't pertain to anything complicated like politics.
+--- 21919343
+>>21919296
+They said 2000.
+--- 21919348
+>>21919343
+The original poster said 200, I said even 2000 is barely adequate except maybe for children cartoons, the guy you're replying to said that 200 isn't enough for that either (and I tend to agree).
+--- 21919442
+>214 posts
+>rehashing grammar v input, again
+>same questions as every thread
+>no one even attempted >>21889508
+gg /clg/
+--- 21919532
+>>21918822
+>The fundamental misunderstanding is that you people don't differentiate learning a native language and learning a secondary language
+Yes
+--- 21919549
+>>21919145
+>I don't think you're that fucked if you start by learning to translate from your target language though
+You are
+https://youtu.be/yW8M4Js4UBA [Embed]
+
+>Learning the grammar first is only going to hinder you if you forever force yourself to analyze every single component of every sentence you ever read instead of just inputing as much you can once you have the basic grammatical structure in your head and upon which you can rely until you have fully acquired the language.
+It's not that studying grammar may hinder your language acquisition, it's also that it does absolutely nothing to help your language acquisition. You think leading grammar did anything to you but you just acquired the grammar intuitively through CI. Learning grammar was a complete waste of time.
+
+>I frankly don't think it's possible to really skip that step at all
+In medieval times when people would illiterate, do you think people need to study grammars to learn their language?
+
+>>21918822
+>You also fail to distinguish between 7 IQ infants who shit on themselves trying to learn how to ask for their moms tits vs a competent adult trying to learn a language alone in their bedroom
+We don't, we look for the best CI instead of being like babies who have no choice
+--- 21919553
+>>21919282
+>No way, unless your idea of inpooting is struggling through sentences by looking up every second word.
+The point of inpooot is to NOT look ANY word, you force yourself to understand through the context
+--- 21919560
+>>21919553
+this is retarded
+--- 21919564
+>>21919296
+You wouldn't struggle because ssince you know the structures you can recognize them and infer the meaning, inpoooting would be massively easier
+
+>>21919442
+I'm not a latin cuck
+--- 21919581
+>>21919560
+You seriously never did it? And you call it retarded? Yes, that's how comprehensible input is supposed to be, you actually acquire the language if you try to understand through context and figuring it out by yourself without translating anything to your first language.
+https://freehebrew.online/why-our-method/
+People who do not do this always have problems acquiring the language. They will keep thinking what they need to say in their first language and then translate it to the second. 
+You don't really see how it could work until you try it yourself. In the beginning you don't understand most of, but if you're watching the right CI content, with a repeated watch you will understand more and you will actually remember the meaning of what you heard.
+--- 21919588
+>>21919564
+The point is that 200 words are too few to infer anything in random native content. Sentences look like this to you:
+> I xyly yx and then I xyz, but yxz zxy xyz.
+Even though you knew more than of the words of this sentence, you have now idea what is happening.
+Real comprehensive inpoot happens at around 95%, and even then you often run into situations where the central word of the sentence is the one you don't know and subsequent sentences hinge upon understanding the meaning of the current one.
+--- 21919591
+>>21919581
+>The point of inpooot is to NOT look ANY word, you force yourself to understand through the context
+Explain the purpose of a single language dictionary, say Merriam-Webster or Oxford. If context alone is enough then dictionaries wouldn't exist.
+>watching the right CI content
+>watching
+>content
+zoom zoom
+--- 21919815
+>>21919194
+depends, up to your taste really, not like there's many people you'll be talking to, unless it's something to do with Orthodoxy maybe
+I'd say for mnemonic purposes either reconstructed or Erasmian is best simply because it's closest to 1to1 sound correspondence with the alphabet, unlike the more modern iotacistic pronunciations where you have multiple letters and diphthongs all sounding /i/
+maybe Erasmian is a good middle ground since you don't have those aspirated mute consonants which many find hard to pronounce
+I try to go for a ~500BC pronunciation
+--- 21919860
+>>21919288
+Hi, it's so nice to meet another anon interested in Semitic languages. I've read that Amharic and Ge'ez are different from each other, I've mentioned them together because I've considered learning one of them.
+Is the Cushitic influence on Amharic visible in grammar, or is it only in the amount of words borrowed into Amharic?
+
+I know that Akkadian has a decent corpus, the problem for me, is that it was forgotten. When I read OT in Hebrew, I know, that the book inspired countless people, and it will continue to inspire in the future, I can learn whole passages by heart, because I see spiritual depth in them. Even if I'm pronouncing it in so-called Yerushalmi pronounciation, I still know that this particular style is important to some people. The same with any sacred language. However Akkadian is dead, and no one speaks it. I try to pronounce it distinguishing long and short vowels, and pronouncing emphatic consonants as in Arabic (yes I know that Ge'ez pronounciation would be better). I also don't like the fact, that scribal commentaries to Akkadian texts were shallow, if their civilisation would have lasted 500 years more they'd create something deeper. 
+I still think that Akkadian is a great language, but I think it's better to learn modern languages before. Especially Aramaic, as it may die in a few decades if we don't help them.
+--- 21919876
+>>21919588
+>The point is that 200 words are too few to infer anything in random native content. Sentences look like this to you:
+You're not supposed to get CI from native books, go for children's books if you want your CI to be text, otherwise watch cartoons
+
+>Real comprehensive inpoot happens at around 95%
+Obviously not, it happens at 30% and of course 0% since that's how babies learn
+
+>>21919591
+>Explain the purpose of a single language dictionary, say Merriam-Webster or Oxford. If context alone is enough then dictionaries wouldn't exist.
+For advanced words, to train your pronunciation and to improve your writing, not to acquire a fucking language what kind of false equivalence is that? I barely used a fucking dictionary to become fluent in English, it was all inpoooot
+--- 21919891
+>>21919876
+>> comprehensive
+I keep using the wrong word. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, because everyone in the discussion knows that I mean comprehensible input, but you evidently don't, because: yes, you have to comprehend the input for it to count as comprehensible input, and 0-30% is too little to comprehend even the basic meaning of a sentence.
+--- 21919900
+>>21919891
+>and 0-30% is too little to comprehend even the basic meaning of a sentence.
+You don't need to comprehend sentences, you comprehend words first
+--- 21919985
+>>21919900
+You know what, this is getting too stupid even for a discussion on a Cushitic gold carving forum. You do you, if you feel consuming thousands of instances of
+> I xyly yx and then I xyz, but yxz zxy xyz.
+gets you closer to learning the language, then carry on.
+I'm sticking with graded readers until I only encounter an unknown word in every other sentence (i.e. every twentieth word or so, which is the 95th percentile) in native content.
+--- 21920027
+>>21919985
+>I'm sticking with graded readers until I only encounter an unknown word in every other sentence
+You realize this is just comprehensible input like I was talking about and if you want to be consistent with what yous aid tus far you should forget graded readers and go study grammar books?
+--- 21920062
+>>21919876
+>The point of inpooot is to NOT look ANY word
+>For advanced words
+too high on your horse to see your own contradictions
+>I barely used a fucking dictionary
+but you did use it
+--- 21920066
+>>21920027
+No, the entire discussion was about when you can realistically expect to make the jump to native content, and graded readers clearly aren't native content. Someone put the threshold 200 words, whereas I'm saying that he's off by at least one order of magnitude.
+When you're claiming that knowing 0-30% is just fine, you're arguing for that ridiculous low threshold, not for graded readers, because that's exactly where the "graded" part comes in: to prevent learners getting overwhelmed by unknown vocabulary.
+NO ONE was arguing against CI.
+--- 21920559
+Any book recommendations on PIE?
+--- 21920857
+>>21920559
+a while ago I read(not even sure if all of it) Martinet's 'Des steppes aux océans. L'indo-européen et les "indo-eutopéens"', should be a decent intro
+--- 21920975
+>>21919442
+>rehashing grammar v input, again
+Whenever I tell people not to take the bait, I'm told it's a free bump so who cares. I give up.
+--- 21921026
+>>21920975
+it's /clg/'s law, every ~4-5 threads there's a chimpout about G vs I, then it pipes down, don't let it get to you
+--- 21921044
+>>21888646 (OP)
+anyone studying Hittite? I have an absolute love of reconstructing old Hittite pronunciation on the basis of Indo-European. Anyone have any good books of historical Anatolian morphology? I’d love to add it to my collection
+--- 21921063
+>>21921044
+You picked a bad day to ask a serious question
+--- 21921108
+>>21921063
+Christ, and here I was under the idea that /lit/ was ever a board of quality.
+--- 21921124
+>>21921108
+It's basically impossible to steer the thread back to a real conversation once the shitposters successfully bait grammar and inpoot autists into arguing. You'll just have to wait until the next thread spawns.
+--- 21921139
+>>21921124
+These threads are doomed from the start with newfags always mindlessly asking what textbook to use instead of just looking it up.
+--- 21921155
+>>21921139
+>These threads are doomed from the start with newfags always mindlessly asking what textbook to use instead of just looking it up.
+That's what I used to think, but it's clearly just one guy fucking with people. Occasionally maybe it is a genuine question. But it's pretty clear when the thread is actually productive that someone who can't actually contribute pulls the pin on a grenade and tries to take the whole thread with him since he feels left out.
+--- 21921492
+>>21921139
+Sometimes, it's reasonable to ask for textbook advice, you know, when you're trying to learn Hittite, but certainly not Latin and Greek. Inb4 next thread when people are shitposting about Hittite.
+--- 21921493
+>go to thread on /lit/
+>ask which book I should get
+>entire thread gets triggered and derails with arguments
+The absolute state
+--- 21921552
+>>21888646 (OP)
+Which version of 1001 arabian nights should i read?
+--- 21921670
+What would be the most "literal" etymological decomposition of the word inductio/induco, as in the root for induction meaning to make inferences from observing cause and effect? 
+
+Let me give an example. Deduction seems straightforward, where de-duco can be read as literally "pulling away from", which is an apt metaphor for what deduction does when we use it. We "pull" a result from a given case and rule. But in- seems a lot more complicated than de- to render an easy "literal" metaphor for induction. Any thoughts?
+--- 21921694
+>>21919310
+I'm not sure if you are asking me about learning Ge'ez or Tigrinya. I would expect knowing some spoken Tigrinya to be a tremendous help to learning any Ethio-Semitic language. If you're asking about Ge'ez, I know of many learning resources. If you're asking about Tigrinya, I know less, but I might be able to connect you with someone who knows more. If you want to take a Ge'ez class this summer, I can help you out with that too.
+>>21919860
+>Is the Cushitic influence on Amharic visible in grammar, or is it only in the amount of words borrowed into Amharic?
+I know next to nothing about Cushitic languages, but as I understand it, the Cushitic influence on Amharic extends beyond the vocabulary level and into grammar.
+I am somewhat worried about the death of Neo-Aramaic, but I think liturgical Aramaic will remain in use for centuries to come. The really big concern with Aramaic is the destruction of Christian and pagan cultural history by Islamic extremists—book burning, violence, and destruction of monuments. Another big problem is that Syriac studies is filled with a bunch of people who don't actually know Syriac. A few years ago, Lucas van Rompay wrote an article on the state of Syriac studies in which he gently encouraged people to learn Syriac, and I am told that there were nasty articles written in response, complaining that he is ableist.
+--- 21921748
+>>21921670
+lead/pull in/on
+it's that simple and every meaning is easily derived from this
+lead into court
+lead into my mind
+pull in(on) me
+lead (you) in(to) - assume
+Induction is when a premise leads you into a general assumption.
+--- 21921756
+>>21921694
+>Lucas van Rompay wrote an article on the state of Syriac studies in which he gently encouraged people to learn Syriac, and I am told that there were nasty articles written in response, complaining that he is ableist.
+This type of thing is what is killing Classics and the Humanities in general
+--- 21921776
+>>21921756
+Absolutely. Just see SCS Annual Meeting 2019 Q&A.
+--- 21921968
+>>21920066
+>When you're claiming that knowing 0-30% is just fine, you're arguing for that ridiculous low threshold
+I'm just stating what I heard from someone who actually learned Japanese to a near native level
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeOmc1nRGG4 [Embed]
+
+If you learned a language as hard as Japanese like he did, then ok I'll consider what you said. So far my experience tells me he's right and that you never learned any second language to fluency. In fact, your method so far (grammar shit) is utter garbage and what is actually making you learn is just inpoooting
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8JK8W8dBxk [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i8AzjxwhSU [Embed]
+--- 21922049
+>>21921968
+>I'm just stating what I heard
+from some nobody on youtube
+kek
+--- 21922237
+>>21921968
+If you guys want to convince people that you are right about something, then you should stop citing turboautist weebs and e-celebs from YouTube or Reddit. The lack of self awareness is not a good look.

lit/21895736.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,488 @@
+-----
+--- 21895736
+Can we have a Pynchon general? Discussing themes, motives etc. from his works.
+
+I read V., Slow Learner and now I'm some 60% done with Gravity's Rainbow. What's with this fixation on weird shit? Like, the main theme of the the two World Wars decimating all cultural norms and ways of living, hence people becoming more and more disturbed.
+
+I think I even picked up the Pavlovian ideas he has in the book. Oh and for sure the way he writes Slothrop actually makes me feel paranoid. When he mentioned Imipolex when Katje was getting raped by n*zis in the castle I actually wondered what the fuck is going on with the story.
+
+What's the big idea behind GR, /lit/? You're literati, you should be able to answer this.
+--- 21895769
+>>21895736 (OP)
+It's a book about how you need to finish reading it before you should expect to understand it, dumbass.
+--- 21895793
+>>21895736 (OP)
+the CL49 and .V HC reprints are nice
+--- 21895806
+>>21895769
+Why are you rude? This is a forum for chatting about books. You need to have some courtesy.
+--- 21895844
+>>21895806
+>only reads 60% of an experimental work
+>what's the big deal?
+--- 21895870
+>>21895736 (OP)
+Byron the Bulb will explain everything
+--- 21895903
+I’m nearing the end of my second read of it now (GR) and my main takeaway is that it’s a work about dialectics and the subject-other relationship. If you notice, most of the book revolves around a simulated version of an act (death, sex, etc) and then later it’s real counterpart that was brought about by the simulation. For instance, you may not have reached this part quite yet but it’s not a massive spoiler, when slothrop fucks Bianca it’s pre-image is in Alpdrucken (the film) and in fucking Margherita. The rockets fall where he has sexual encounters, and later the sexual encounters themselves are brought into suspicion as many of the purported women simply do not exist. Meaning, Slothrop’s intense sexual fantasies literally call the rocket to fall there. Tchitcherine’s desire to meet Enzian brings them together not out of direct searching, but the secondary effects that his desire has on the Zone. I could go on all day. But, the important part of these examples is that a simulation brings about the real and that these events occur in doubles. I think this could be explained more simply through Lacanian terms where the subject posits an Other who, by the very force of its own internal alienness to humanity, also posits the subject. Meaning, that we create things which then stand for an otherness within ourselves. (Sexual accoutrements, rockets) This otherness within us then fills the thing with a conception of humanity. (the doubling process of sex in the book, rockets falling where Slothrop was) However, it’s not actually a mystical process where material things are capable of thought and influencing reality. The “thinking” done by materiality is merely a projection of our own internal otherness and, as such, the book can be read as a dialectical process where the ego (the characters) struggles with the subconscious (the material structure and content of the book) to achieve a more comprehensive conception of itself as a unity of opposites.  This can be seen in the Jamf sections later in the book where Slothrop’s childhood disturbances are even brought into question as to whether or not he just dreamt them up. 
+--- 21896443
+>>21895736 (OP)
+is this actually worth reading? I hate the writing style
+--- 21896496
+>>21895736 (OP)
+I'm too much of an Iqlet I got filtered by Vineland
+--- 21896565
+>>21895736 (OP)
+>the main theme of the the two World Wars decimating all cultural norms and ways of living
+Only historylets think this. The actual order of this causation is in reverse.
+--- 21897948
+M&D is his best work by far
+--- 21897953
+>>21895736 (OP)
+I just read The Crying of Lot 49, I liked it but I'm still processing the whole work.
+--- 21898052
+>>21896565
+That's idealism. Pynchon was a materialist.
+
+>>21895903
+Nice takes and I mostly agree. I don't have anything to add. Even Slothrop's paranoia seems fake at times, some kind of self-rationalization of events.
+--- 21898054
+>>21898052
+>That's idealism. Pynchon was a materialist.
+Empty words with no factual backing.
+--- 21898057
+>>21895736 (OP)
+I’ve taken a break from reading Against the Day. I like it but at the same time don’t care about it like Mason & Dixon or GR, feels a little meandering and unimportant in comparison. Yeah it’s fun but I don’t know if it’s worth the effort to finish it
+--- 21898074
+>>21895736 (OP)
+It’s the literary equivalent of the Simpsons. He just obscures this through Joyce-like retardation. Once you understand that he relies on complex pattern recognition and nothing more, it’s over.
+--- 21898088
+>>21898074
+>Once you understand that he relies on complex pattern recognition 
+Tell me more, I’m intrigued
+--- 21898333
+>>21898074
+>complex pattern recognition
+Can confirm. I've developed schizophrenia because I read too much into Pynchon.
+--- 21898901
+>>21898052
+No, that's not idealism, I mean it literally. The World Wars were a direct result of the preceding nineteenth century, which had "decimated all cultural norms and ways of living," that we have largely forgotten about. It was this state of affairs responsible for the underlying mania of the Western public at the time, and this phenomenon is what the banksters and the rabble-rousers leveraged into massive conflict.
+--- 21898976
+>>21898901
+Again, if you do not elaborate what happened in the XIX century to cause whatever happened in the XX, then that's again idealism.
+Though I agree that the emergence of world markets and industrialization/spread of capitalism lead to 'all that is holy becoming profane and all that is solid melting' as one German sociologist would say
+--- 21899048
+>>21898976
+>Again, if you do not elaborate what happened in the XIX century to cause whatever happened in the XX, then that's again idealism.
+That's the part where you do your own research frendo. This is a 4chan post, not an essay. I recommend starting with Ecce Homo where Nietzsche predicts that the twentieth century would be a century of "wars such as have never happened on earth."
+--- 21899181
+Apparently PTA is plotting a Vineland adaptation.
+--- 21899217
+>>21899181
+Oh nice, I loved Inherent Vice
+--- 21899345
+>>21899217
+Not a popular opinion but I really liked it too. Joaquin Phoenix is a treasure. The book was better as I expected.
+--- 21899421
+Ranking what I've read of Pynchon so far:
+
+Gravity's Rainbow>V.>Mason & Dixon>The Crying of Lot 49>Inherent Vice>Bleeding Edge>Vineland
+--- 21899690
+i like the parts where the rocket goes boom
+--- 21900278
+What are some good essays/books to better appreciate GR? Besides Herman's book on GR
+--- 21900293
+>>21899181
+vineland kinda sucked as a book but i would most def purchase that shit on itunes for $5 like i did inherent vice. and you know once the pynchmeister finally croaks his son will let pta do the gravity's rainbow movie for a fatty paycheck.
+--- 21900320
+>>21900278
+Just read up on his family history
+--- 21901127
+>>21898088
+Humans have exceptional pattern recognition. Like >>21898333
+said here, when its a little too good, we go nuts kek. Pynchon uses this ability against us. He uses chains of complex reasoning to tell his stories, as you know, but because part of his interest is in absurdity, irony, and (imo) randomness, when these chains (or patterns) begin to form, some of them end up being meaningless to the reader. Our brains can't handle that. We NEED patterns to mean something. So we try to read farther into Pynchon. That's by design, too, because Pynchon is also interested in paranoia. Reading into things that are not there gives the reader that feeling of paranoia. Pynchon further obscures his patterns through techniques that James Joyce used, stuff like words or phrases with double or triple meanings and complex sentences and stream of consciousness. In normal writers, this I would consider an attempt at "depth." But with Pynchon, its total obfuscation (another of his interests imo). He wants you to wade through his prose to seek patterns that aren't there, because he knows we're human animals who need to see the patterns--which is in part the point to a lot of his work, I believe. He is showing us through prose that we are the proverbial dog that chases the car without thinking about what we'll do when we catch it, and since we ought to know better than the dog, it's absurd that we do it anyway. It reminds me of The Simpsons. Our ritual lives are often absurd and we all know it but we kind of wink and go through with our rituals anyhow; the Simpsons comment on this a lot and I think Pynchon does, too, just in an elevated format. He is actually quite brilliant. But when you realize that's what he's doing, it's over. He can't trick you anymore. You don't believe anything that's going on is serious. UNLESS you hate yourself and insist on chasing down meaning...just the next pattern...that one will explain it all to me.... Just my experience with V. and GR. I haven't read his other books beside Slow Learner.
+--- 21901174
+>>21899181
+Apparently (meaning someone said it on /tv/ once) he's been at it since before he made IV. I hope it will be a less faithful adaptation this time.
+--- 21901380
+>>21895736 (OP)
+His patterns may be complex, but the story isn't worth trying to figure out his hidden puzzles. Parts of it are very great and other parts are total shit. The great parts keep you reading, but it just isn't a good story.
+>B-BUT HE'S A GENIUS!!!! IT'S JUST LIKE JOYCE!!!
+I don't care. I agree with Capote.
+--- 21901466
+>>21895736 (OP)
+> What's the fixation on weird shit?
+
+Pynchon explicitly writes with the intention to confuse for a few reasons in Gravity's Rainbow:
+
+1. Pynchon is deeply into the idea of entropy, or reverse causality. "A screaming comes across the sky," we hear the sound of the V-2 only after it has landed, the Kabbalah, an esoteric Jewish mystical system is constantly deployed throughout the book, yet is explained to the reader at the end of the book. This is just a few of the examples we're dealing with here.
+
+2. Pynchon's enemy is Them. Never explained, barely referenced, the only idea of Them we get is that "They’ embrac[e] possibilities far beyond Nazi Germany." And that's it. Sure, Weizmann is the Bad Guy, but They are invoked as the puppet masters pulling even his strings. Also, in GR, WE are THEM as well, they have an office branch in every corner of our minds, they manipulate our fear, hopes, psychoses to serve Their interests. The only proposed solution to this dilemma is to pursue sadism and masochism in the general public, to defy Them and all they want. It's strange, but it kind of connects to the thesis that these Nazi's were just a bunch of horny bastards. This is why you see characters literally eating shit, it's how they revolt against Them, also Nazism.
+
+3. Pynchon is deeply suspicious of mass-entertainment, and this suspicion extends to the very book he is writing now. It doesn't matter if its Wagnerian opera or a cowboy movie, They manipulate it and use it for their own economic interests. During the scene where the double agent Katje Borgesius watches a film of Grigori the octopus watching a film of her intended to condition him to attack her, we should realize that we are the next link in the chain of conditioning spectatorship as we read the very words on the page. Pynchon wants our paranoia about how They are controlling our minds to extend to him, to his publishers, to all media. This is also why I will never understand why Gravity's Rainbow is so lauded for introducing high and low culture together... Pynchon is deeply suspicious of popular entertainment throughout the book.
+--- 21901480
+>>21899181
+I'm genuinely surprised at this, considering how much the film sucks all of the joy and meandering fun out of the book. The film is almost like the cinematic equivalent of showing the audience a mirror and saying, "Take a shower, hippie."
+--- 21901521
+>>21901466
+>Weizmann is the Bad Guy
+how subtle
+--- 21901533
+>>21901466
+This sounds based as fuck. Looks like /lit/ lied to me again. Bumping GR 30 places up my list, probably gonna read it next month.
+--- 21901614
+>>21901466
+>"A screaming comes across the sky," we hear the sound of the V-2 only after it has landed
+I'm not sure if you're connecting these, but the screaming is an air raid siren
+--- 21901617
+>>21901127
+No he's just writing about fractals
+--- 21901626
+>>21901521
+It's not trying to be
+--- 21901636
+>>21901466
+Also you need to include the racial politics throughout GR. Pynchon sees racism as the rejection of everything the white man sees inferior in himself:
+
+> Shit, now, is the color white folks are afraid of. Shit is the presence of death, not some abstract-arty character with a scythe but the stiff and rotting corpse inside the whiteman’s warm and private own asshole, which is getting pretty intimate. You see many brown toilets? Nope, toilet’s the color of gravestones, classical columns of mausoleums, that white porcelain’s the very emblem of Odorless and Official Death. Shinola shoeshine polish happens to be the color of Shit. Shoeshine boy Malcolm’s in the toilet slappin’ on the Shinola, working off whiteman’s penance on his sin of being born the color of Shit ‘n’ Shinola.
+
+Also, Pynchon sees colonization not as an economic system but a psychic one.
+
+> What’s a colony without its dusky natives? Where’s the fun if they’re all going to die off? Just a big chunk of desert, no more maids, no field-hands, no laborers for the construction or the mining–wait, wait a minute there, yes it’s Karl Marx, that sly old racist skipping away with his teeth together and his eyebrows up trying to make believe it’s nothing but Cheap Labor and Overseas Markets… Oh, no. Colonies are much, much more. Colonies are the outhouses of the European soul, where a fellow can let his pants down and relax, enjoy the smell of his own shit.
+--- 21901724
+>>21896443
+If you want a quick introduction to his themes, try Crying of Lot 49. GR is a monster that takes a lot of effort to understand and the rewards in my opinion aren't worth it.
+--- 21901877
+>>21901724
+No it's worth it
+--- 21902051
+>>21895736 (OP)
+
+This book reads like 900 pages of 4chan greentexts
+--- 21902754
+>>21901466
+This is a good post. However,
+>The only proposed solution to this dilemma is to pursue sadism and masochism in the general public, to defy Them and all they want.
+This is not a proposed solution. The scatological fixation only appears with characters very firmly within Their grasp, most prominently General Pudding and Slothrop when they're both being thoroughly conditioned by The White Visitation.
+The real proposed solution is preterition. That's why Slothrop's family history is explained in such detail, why Enzian's group of survivors use their word describing themselves as "the ones passed over," why The Counterweight and any other form of resistance is so heavily implied to be doomed, and why Slothrop's escape is to dissolve out of the narrative and disappear into the preterite as the book concludes without him.
+I suspect Byron the Bulb factors into this too, but I just started my first full reread and that section honestly threw me pretty hard the first time through.
+--- 21902812
+>>21902754
+This is better than OP's take, yes. It's important to note that Pynchon doesn't really see this Counterforce ever 'defeating' Them, though, since they control literally everything. Remember, "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE DEFEATED." Pynchon uses Byron the Bulb as a symbol of Byronic romance against the industrialized system: Byron, like the light bulb always glowing, has the knowledge, but tragically none of the power. This is the fate of the modern artist (Pynchon and his ilk).
+--- 21903528
+>>21902754
+>>21902812
+I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Pynchon sees the counterforce as completely incapable of destroying Them. Rather, Pynchon understands that Their main form of control is a modernist form of rationality which precludes certain analytical and mystical viewpoints. Thus, for Pynchon, in true dialectical fashion, the way that we overcome Them is through creating a culture which emphasizes the importance of stressing areas of contradiction within the atomized bourgeois worldview. One of the largest examples of this I can think of would be his portrayal of the other side of death in the novel. Early in the book at the Nazi Seance we get the clearest picture from Rathenau of the other side. He professes it’s near indescribability for spatio-temporal beings but explains that it’s sort of a carrying-on of the individual consciousness through a realm of ontological immediacy. Importantly, he hints that there is a sort of plan guiding the workings of our world and that the dead can understand and influence it with experience at its analysis. What all this means is that on the other side of death there is a group of spectral beings with otherworldly knowledge and power influencing, in part, our world. The Nazi’s take his grim knowledge and giggle, making light of it, suggesting that They underestimate the dead’s importance. Throughout the novel after that we get a few more glimpses over the other side which all seem to continue reinforcing this idea that the dead are confederated and working towards the unfolding of a plan. Additionally, They are not invincible which can be seen through the plot several times. Slothrop loses his handlers in Zürich and doesn’t really regain his observational retinue until Cuxhaven where he promptly outsmarts them at a whorehouse and has Major Marvy take the castration intended for him. Additionally, there’s the issue of how much of our paranoia is gratuitous to Them. Tchitcherine’s paranoia towards his government, heightened at the news of a Soviet spy from Moscow asking about him, is actually just Slothrop who Major Marvy mistakes for a Soviet. Several pivotal points of Slothropian paranoia are brought into question at the end about their reality. Weissman’s passion for life, sublimated in his fervor for the rocket so that he might better serve Them, is ultimately the plan’s undoing despite all attempts to subdue it. All signs point to a tough fight, for sure, but not a theoretically unwinnable one.
+--- 21904899
+bump
+--- 21905836
+>>21895736 (OP)
+Should I re-read V. or read Mason & Dixon. Was going to read the latter but I'm also interested on re-visiting V. or even going for my third read of Gravity's Rainbow. I think GR is my favorite novel and I don't even think I understand 20% of it, so seeing some insight on this thread was pretty great.
+--- 21905878
+>>21905836
+In my humble opinion, M&D is the second best book Pynchon ever wrote behind GR. Not only is it a classic with elements of his paranoia and his sense of humor and wacky events. But, if you liked the portions of GR talking about Slothrop’s ancestors then you’ll love M&D. It’s an exploration of what it means to be an American, a story of two opposite men forming a lifelong friendship, and Pynchon’s best prose by far in any of his works.
+--- 21905913
+>>21905878
+Will keep it in consideration, thanks. Since I started reading his works last year I got inspired into writing stories, though I'd like to go for something like a graphic novel considering my passion for drawing. But feel like I'm still not mature enough to actually "get" Gravity's Rainbow, let alone attempt something as insane and convoluted as Pynchon's works.
+--- 21906060
+>>21902754
+There's a throwaway sentence somewhere in the novel that was incredibly telling, something along the lines of "sometimes something happens to a person and they spend the rest of their life walking around as a giant two year old". Consider what may or may not have happened to Slothrop with his sexual hangups, and then think about everybody else in Their grasp.
+--- 21907232
+>>21902051
+that's why he's the best!
+--- 21907253
+>>21907232
+Pynchon stop posting on 4chan and publish another book already it's been 10 years goddamn
+--- 21907279
+Question: was Pig Bodine a real person? He appears in Gravity's Rainbow, in V. and even in Slow Learner. Surely he's the key to all of this.
+--- 21908140
+>>21906060
+If you're trying to intimate that the BDSM side of things is a mark of Their influence rather than the proposed solution the other anon proposed, then yes, I agree. 
+There are clear tonal differences between people fucking for fun and (for lack of a better phrase) fucking for evil in all of Pynchon's work, even going back to large chunks of V., like the horrifying fetishistic medley happening in that flashback to the fortified manor in the Südwest with a young Blicero. You can see it in the nasty way Lake Traverse gets used by her father's killers in Against the Day, the objectification and cartoonish bimbofication of every woman Wolfman uses in Inherent Vice when Doc finds his tie collection, the spooky Jesuit sex slavery in Mason & Dixon, countless GR episodes from the Anubis to the porno snuff film. I'm rereading The White Visitation's initial chapters right now and the whole thing reads like pic related, the whole section is couched in language like this.
+I think it contrasts very sharply with the usual playful, maybe scampish sexuality of his protagonists, who just kinda stumble into sex with hot girls all the time in a way that he tries to make wholesome and endearing, and when it suddenly isn't (Doc when Shasta returns, Slothrop and Bianca, Yashmeen Halfcourt's unhappy threesome) it's so jarring that you immediately pick up that there must be some kind of evil influence here.
+--- 21909179
+bros i didn't even realise the first 2 pages of GR was a dream... am i too dumb to read this book
+--- 21909187
+>>21909179
+You don't need to get it to enjoy it.
+--- 21909387
+>>21908140
+the entire last ~200 pages of ATD with the threesome was so repulsive that it soured me on the entire novel
+--- 21909975
+>>21902051
+Isn't that Crime and Punishment?
+--- 21910040
+>>21909975
+Dostoyevsky is Reddit.
+--- 21910241
+>>21910040
+Pynchud is even more reddit
+--- 21910316
+>>21909975
+You're thinking of Notes from the Underground, which is sadly not that long.
+--- 21911274
+admit it, you guys only suck the novel off for its fantastic writing and proses
+--- 21911278
+>>21911274
+you forgot to bump
+--- 21911285
+>>21911274
+I suck off everything Pynchon does because he's one of only a handful of writers who can make me smile on every page.
+--- 21912116
+Is Pinecones prose really as extraordinary as they say?
+
+I personally enjoy the style but I admit I get a little peeved when I see him compared with the greats. I think he's extremely talented but people seem to overstate his competence when it comes his prose. I'd even contest his grouping with Stevenson, Chesterton, Wodehouse, Joyce, Perelman, Benchley with Shakespeare, Joyce, Browne, Johnson and Taylor being the apex.
+I feel the same way about Nabokov, incredible talent but not nearly as exceptional as his literary heritage.
+
+Am I looking at this the wrong way?
+--- 21912186
+>>21912116
+shut up nerd
+--- 21912224
+>>21912116
+His prose was never extraordinary. I have never seen him mentioned even among the more recent great stylists like McCarthy, Updike, Gass, Nabokov etc. It's good and works well in his books.
+--- 21912259
+>>21912116
+it is
+--- 21912264
+>>21912224
+>worse than McCarthy
+
+lol no
+--- 21912283
+>>21912264
+Easily. I was talking about popular consciousness anyway.
+--- 21912323
+>>21912283
+you don't know what you're talking about lol
+--- 21912325
+>>21912323
+You are just seething at a common opinion, anon. More common than Gass btw, who never really got his due as a stylist.
+--- 21912338
+>>21912325
+whatever helps you cope
+--- 21912352
+>>21912325
+>>21912338
+Why can't you just have civilized conversations with actual content? Give peace a chance, man.
+--- 21912355
+>>21912352
+he started it
+--- 21912359
+>>21912338
+You're the one unable to cope with facts.
+>>21912352
+No one's fighting.
+--- 21912364
+>>21912355
+I answered a question, and not to you anyway.
+--- 21912376
+>>21912364
+yeah and you got mad when someone disagreed with your terrible opinion
+--- 21912394
+>>21912376
+It wasn't an opinion. And you are the one who got mad. I am pretty docile.>>21912283
+--- 21912401
+>>21912394
+it was though, sorry
+--- 21912427
+>>21912352
+Shut the fuck up, Sportello.
+--- 21912429
+>>21912401
+Forgiven. Hopefully, your knowledge about these things get better. Why do you think his prose is better than Cormac's though? That's something not even Pynchon's ardent fans contest.
+--- 21912437
+>>21912429
+how do you know about proses when you can't even read?
+--- 21912443
+>>21912437
+>proses
+--- 21912446
+>>21912116
+Reread the Disgusting English Candy Drill and then tell me he isn't an amazing prose stylist.
+He probably doesn't reach the absolute apex of your list, but for post-war Americans there aren't many who can compete with him. I think he's a lot more concerned with being playful with language than strictly beautiful, if that makes sense, but he has complete control over every fucking sound and syllable he uses.
+--- 21912458
+>>21912443
+I think he's taking the piss. When Waldun had a dozen threads a day about a year ago, some pajeet comment praising him became popular that went something like "The proses... They flow..."
+--- 21912468
+>>21912458
+Hello sir this is Steve from Microsoft the prose, they flow
+--- 21912472
+>>21912437
+What are you talking about?
+--- 21912486
+>>21912446
+>playful
+How? He doesn't pun that often.
+--- 21912489
+>>21912486
+uh anon uh have you ever read him
+--- 21912497
+>>21912489
+Yeah. Having zany scenes is not my definition of playing with language.
+--- 21912500
+>>21912497
+OK good thing he's more than just zany scenes i guess
+--- 21912512
+>>21912497
+I genuinely do not believe you can say this with a straight face if you A) aren't an ESL unable to parse wordplay and B) read any one of his works to completion. 
+It's hard to find a single paragraph where he isn't making some kind of pun. How many limericks about having sex with rockets did he manage to write into GR, at least a dozen?
+--- 21912517
+>>21912500
+Any examples? I know the fur henchmen style shit he pulls but that's not nearly as much. I'd say he tries to be beautiful more often than not, rather than playful. I don't remember anything in GR that was like Sirens or Oxen.
+--- 21912525
+>>21912512
+A dozen limericks would still be less for a 760 page novel.
+--- 21912533
+>>21912525
+Yes, every word outside of those was deadly serious.
+Are you one of those people who reads the wikipedia article about the book then starts smugly shitposting about how it must be awful?
+--- 21912549
+>>21912533
+Why are you mad? How does this (>>21912525) give you the impression that I am hating? What makes you insecure about this whole thing? If it makes you feel better than Mabokov's playfulness with language is similarly overstated. The most you get are multilingual puns here and there. Pynchon is the same sort.
+--- 21912550
+>>21912549
+I meant this one >>21912517
+--- 21912561
+>>21912549
+because you don't actually say anything just namedrop and act smug while moving the goalposts
+--- 21912571
+>>21912561
+I don't know what made you insecure but hope you have a better day. I have been pretty clear as to what I was saying.
+--- 21912587
+>>21912571
+you've given me alot to think about..
+--- 21912595
+>>21912587
+Hopefully it was the 1st sentence that did the job and not 2nd.
+--- 21912747
+>>21912446
+> he has complete control over every fucking sound and syllable he uses
+How so?
+--- 21913189
+>>21912446
+Yeah I love that about his style, I just had a feeling I was filtered and was looking for clarification about what other anons saw in his style 
+Also that anon isn't me, I just got off work and I haven't been able to post anything other than >>21912116
+--- 21914178
+>>21912264
+>>21912323
+>>21912338
+>>21912376
+>>21912401
+>>21912437
+>>21912446
+>>21912512
+>>21912533
+>>21912561
+>>21912587
+Kek, pynchudcucks are such insecure fags. He is trash. Find another writer to base your personality on, cuck.
+--- 21914221
+>>21895903
+I love how you did a good job explaining the book, nobody knew enough about it to acknowledge you, and then the thread kept spewing misconceptions and nonsense for like 150 more posts
+--- 21914238
+>>21901174
+vineland is his favorite Pynchon, he said it in that Marc maron interview from 2014 where he also basically admitted Pynchon has a cameo in his movie adaptation of Inherent vice
+--- 21914293
+>>21914221
+C’est la vie. Effortposting on /lit/ is essentially a lost cause anyway, but it always makes me satisfied to see when others do it here as well. There’s a couple real Shakespeare heads on /lit/ and a few philosophy guys that I’ve noticed who’s posts are recognizable enough for me to take solace in the continuity of their effortposts.
+--- 21915491
+>>21895769
+flippy bippy heh heh
+--- 21915496
+>>21915491
+You forgot to bump.
+--- 21916052
+Am I the only one that thinks Ruggles would make for a good dog name?
+--- 21916461
+>>21895903
+Goodpost
+--- 21916509
+>>21895736 (OP)
+Reminder to boycott the gypsy carpetbagger and all his PR shills who are employed to manufacture his reputation. Chris via "asshole" is a plant. He has taken money from deep vellum to shill cartarshitcu on his channel to his gullible audience of 21 years olds. They even got his review published in a semi-decent magazine, something he was unable to do himself for 10 years. The fraud is so obvious and bad taste.
+--- 21916525
+>>21916509
+Pynchon isn't a gypsy. He's a WASP.
+--- 21916533
+>>21916525
+Learn to read, faggot
+--- 21916542
+>>21916533
+Ma'am this is Pynchon thread
+--- 21916543
+>>21916533
+Learn to not be retarded, retard.
+--- 21916897
+>>21916525
+He’s not a WASP, dipshit. He’s Catholic.
+--- 21918372
+bump
+--- 21918906
+>>21903528
+I'm also tempted to use the Rathenau seance as the skeleton key to the book but the forces on the other side of the death are more flavorful than integral to the plot. He talks of coal becoming fuel, the living turned into the dead turned into energy for machines, and he talks about 
+>"the persistence, then, of structures favoring death. Death converted into more death. Perfecting its reign, just as the buried coal grows denser, and overlaid with more strata—epoch on top of epoch, city on top of ruined city. This is the sign of Death the impersonator"
+which comes off more like a marxist rant than a warning of invaders beyond the zero. There may be secular and mystical Thems but underpinning it all is a system to whom humans are but a means to feed itself. In part 4 Blicero tells of people on the moon that seems reminiscent of the role of the ghosts.
+>"There are ways for getting back, but so complicated, so at the mercy of language, that presence back on Earth is only temporary, and never ‘real’... passages out there are dangerous, chances of falling so shining and deep.... Gravity rules all the way out to the cold sphere, there is always the danger of falling."
+The people who seem to have some spiritual ascendence, Rathenau and Bland and later Blicero and Thanatz(?) are all architects of the system, they seem to have increased their temporal bandwidth like Slothrop but rather than escaping they have got stuck into the greater system.
+--- 21918930
+Don't really have anything to add in terms of interpretation, but I always liked that little moment in Vineland when Zoyd meets Mucho and it mentions his genial divorce. As if Pynchon's letting us know Oedipa learned what she wanted in that auction room, made it out, and went on with her life.
+--- 21918938
+>>21918930
+And yet we never do...
+--- 21918950
+>>21918930
+>"Well I still wish it was back then, when you were the Count. Remember how the acid was? Remember that windowpane, down in Laguna that time? God, I knew then, I knew. . . ."
+>They had a look. "Uh-huh, me too. That you were never going to die. Ha! No wonder the State panicked. How are they supposed to control a population that knows it'll never die? When that was always their last big chip, when they thought they had the power of life and death. But acid gave us the X-ray vision to see through that one, so of course they had to take it away from us."
+>"Yeah, but they can't take what happened, what we found out."
+>"Easy. They just let us forget. Give us too much to process, fill up every minute, keep us distracted, it's what the Tube is for, and though it kills me to say it, it's what rock and roll is becoming — just another way to claim our attention, so that beautiful certainty we had starts to fade, and after a while they have us convinced all over again that we really are going to die. And they've got us again." It was the way people used to talk.
+--- 21918999
+>>21918906
+There's another interesting quote about Blicero's ascendance
+>"Whatever happened at the end, he has transcended. Even if he’s only dead. He’s gone beyond his pain, his sin—driven deep into Their province, into control, synthesis and control, further than—” well, he was about to say “we” but “I” seems better after all, “I haven’t transcended. I’ve only been elevated. That must be as empty as things get: it’s worse than being told you won’t have to die by someone you can’t believe in....'
+Enzian sees this as a positive but I think he is mistaken. This poster gets it >>21902754. Blicero's sacrifice was an impotent faux-pagan ritual. Only Slothrop escaped. Enzian also misinterpreted Katjes fate.
+>“You, poor Katje. Your story is the saddest of all.” She looks up to see exactly how his face will be mocking her. She is stunned to see tears instead running, running over his cheeks. “You’ve only been set free""
+
+Also, the control and synthesis mention was interesting. The Rathenau line about the nature of control and synthesis seems like a direct appeal from the author. I think control alludes to the total, gravitational control of Them over both life and death, but when he speaks of its true nature, that is control theory. The longest technical section in the novel is a description of the control module of the rocket and this book came out during the heyday of cybernetics. That a system can control a vehicle or robot through deterministic equations alone, or return any outgoing vector to a stable point has direct parallels to the system of production that is Them. The true nature of synthesis is less clear, earlier in the Séance they mention beige, that new colors are being synthesized, and later talk of new plastics and drugs and other chemicals. But the actual threat, at least to Blicero, is analysis:
+>"Europe’s Original Sin—the latest name for that is Modern Analysis"
+It could be that the nature of synthesis is that it is actually analysis, at least the synthesis that is going on in the 20th century. Recall the Kenosha kid: each sentence has new meaning but they are all the same words. Same with technology, and organic chemistry. How can you hope to beat the system using its own material? The pagans and the non-secularists are going back to pre-secular forms of protest, too impotent since at least Mason & Dixon to accomplish anything, but they are portrayed in a positive light for this reason.
+--- 21919177
+>>21912283
+What popular consciousness is talking about Gass and Updike at all, much less as prose stylists better than Pynchon?
+--- 21919240
+>>21919177
+Don't know about Gass, but Updike gets repeated mentions among great American stylists more often than Pynchon. That's literally his only appeal.
+--- 21919244
+I read 20 pages of Mason and Dixon and it felt comfy but I read The Crying of Lot 49 and it felt disgusting
+--- 21919253
+>>21919244
+>one book set in an era of discovery and progress
+>another book set in one of the most degenerate cities in America
+--- 21919607
+>>21919244
+Slavery and colonialism is pretty degenerate
+--- 21919679
+>>21896443
+No
+It's one of the worst books I've ever read. Just go downtown, buy a scizo homeless person lunch, maybe give him a little meth, and strike up a conversation about war, s&m, scatophilia beastiality,pedophilia, incest, nazis,lightbulbs, bananas, germany, rocket science, bear suits, mothers ect. Tie it all together. You'll get the same results. There is no plot that i could make out. Cleverness here and there, hidden in writing, some big analogous material that is obscure and without context. It's not profound. You would need to be on a lot of drugs and have someone walk you through it to find any big meaning in it. It is anything but obvious.
+--- 21919714
+>>21919679
+lmao stick to Dostoyevsky, kid
+leave big books for the big boys
+--- 21919769
+>>21919714
+Gladly
+If orally raping your daughter for hours and molesting the neighbor girl behind the shed is highbrow literature, you can have it.
+--- 21919789
+>>21919714
+What the hell is this? You can't knock down Dosto at the expense of Pynchon of all people. They are more together than separate, even as artists.
+--- 21919830
+>>21895736 (OP)
+NAZIS. Don’t censor yourself you tiktok zoomer faggot.
+--- 21920980
+>>21919679
+Funny how every single time somebody talks out their ass like this about the book they can't help but expose themselves as only reading the first five pages by bringing up the fucking bananas.
+>I didn't get it, which means there can't possibly be anything to get and everyone who says there is is just pretending
+This is the most worthless narcissistic criticism that can possibly be thrown out about any work. Even if you just look at the last dozen Pynchon threads on here and skim the effortposts that come out of them it's easy to see that you're wrong, and that's just from the retards on 4chan.
+--- 21921931
+>>21920980
+I just finished the book like a month ago.
+I was totally niave about it. I didn't know anything about it when i started it and didn't look into it after i was finished. I had a really bad taste in my mouth a third of the way in. I just wanted to get it over with after he orally rapes his daughter for hours. The daughter he had with the s&m actress who made him eat turds that he dreamed were nigger dicks. Who was different every year or something and made no sense at all. What was that all about?

lit/21898937.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,1076 @@
+-----
+--- 21898937
+do you think literature is the highest form of art?
+--- 21898941
+>>21898937 (OP)
+I love literature but I unironically think video games as a gesamtkunstwerk are the highest form there is at the moment.
+--- 21899092
+>>21898937 (OP)
+It has been replaced but people think "old is gold"
+Just like the retards that keep riding horses to this day.
+Remind me again,.. why did people stopped painting caves?
+--- 21899100
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Waiting patiently for the /tv/ fags to appear
+--- 21899110
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Second to fireworks.
+>>21898941
+A novel is text-dump only game.
+>>21899092
+Dropping climate made people switch to houses.
+--- 21899114
+I do. We don’t hear Roman musicians but we read Roman writers.
+--- 21899178
+>>21898937 (OP)
+No. Books are for fags
+--- 21899179
+>>21898937 (OP)
+yes
+--- 21899196
+>>21899178
+I agree
+--- 21899208
+No. That is films; mixture of music, photographic framing and narrative
+--- 21899211
+>>21898937 (OP)
+No, (instrumental) music is.
+--- 21899214
+>>21899208
+>music, photographic framing and narrative
+But none is done at the highest level. Quantity =/= quality
+--- 21899219
+>>21899208
+Read more. Maybe you’ll learn how to use a semicolon correctly.
+--- 21899232
+>>21899208
+1: read more
+2: Watch more movies. 12 angry men is normie trash
+--- 21899251
+>>21899232
+You complain about normies yet you use the most normie word for normie. I am very intelligent.
+--- 21899286
+>>21899251
+Autism
+--- 21899297
+>>21898937 (OP)
+i love literature and all but i think art takes the prize here. what else can get away with putting a jpeg fucking skull on the floor like a chad
+--- 21899299
+>>21899286
+Autism is a superpower.
+>>21898937 (OP)
+It is one of the highest, I cannot choose between visual arts and literature and music.
+--- 21899300
+>>21898941
+This guy is right. Video games are a fusion of different art forms operating in unison.
+>Music
+>Visual art
+>Text and dialogue
+>Architecture
+>Gameplay rhythm
+It's got the whole shebang
+--- 21899302
+>>21899297
+forgot pic
+--- 21899312
+>>21898941
+Based
+--- 21899313
+No.
+
+>>21899300
+>>21898941
+You need to have very little actual knowledge of the other art forms to find video games a good sort of Gesamtkunstwerk.
+
+>>21899208
+>mixture of music
+>posts film with no music
+--- 21899325
+>>21899313
+Alrighty. Show me your ideal Gee Sam-kun's twerk
+--- 21899328
+>>21899300
+Unfortunately video game writers are not geniuses and the nature of the medium draws a short-attention span audience which it must gratify, rather than a deeper attention span audience, and these factors means literature will inevitably be superior
+--- 21899331
+>>21899208
+This is incorrect and the bar is much lower for film. Hence why the Godfather is no masterpiece in literature but the story in film is considered one of the finest of all, because by film standards it is.
+--- 21899333
+That being said, video games as a medium are still in their infancy. These past ten years have brought us some gems but there is still so much more the medium has to offer. At least it's finally on its way to be accepted as something that isn't entirely for light entertainment and for kids.
+--- 21899338
+>>21899331
+Same with theatre. Hamlet is just a snippet of a chronicle by prose standards but for drama it's genius.
+--- 21899342
+>>21898941
+>>21899300
+Again, none of these on their own are at even a decent level. Quantity does not equal quality.
+--- 21899349
+>>21899333
+Video games will always be in their "infancy" because their target audience will always be a select group within the stupid masses, and that select group is manchildren who have the attention span of a goldfish and the taste of an orangutan.
+--- 21899365
+>>21899325
+Some operas are OK, if they're staged by good directors.
+Though in general I don't think GKW is an especially meaningful endeavour in the first place.
+--- 21899369
+>>21899349
+Cope
+--- 21899371
+Nah, video games.
+Because they combine every art
+--- 21899380
+>>21898941
+>>21899300
+>>21899371
+Ok, name one (1) video game that's as artistically meritorious as Pale Fire.
+--- 21899381
+>>21899380
+Funt
+--- 21899401
+>>21898937 (OP)
+The highest form of art is as follows:
+Painting > Music > Literature > The Rest
+--- 21899402
+>>21899380
+Noita
+--- 21899405
+>>21899369
+Nothing I said is untrue.
+--- 21899408
+>>21899371
+Again, for the third time... none of the arts video games combine are made at an acceptable level
+--- 21899412
+>>21899402
+Is that webm supposed to attract me to the game?
+--- 21899416
+>>21899412
+No. The game sucks and you shouldn't play it
+--- 21899417
+>>21899408
+>positivist can only think in terms of hitherto exisiting instances of an art form and not the Form itself
+cute
+--- 21899423
+>>21899417
+>le whole is le greater than le sum of its parts
+Alright, the whole, or the Form, is terrible too. What now?
+--- 21899425
+>>21899405
+Notice he doesn't have anything of substance to refute what you said. His mind has been turned to mush by a steady diet of cereal, Marvel films, Netflix, and, obviously, video games. All he can do is repeat stale one-word retorts he's learned from other. Of course his lack critical thinking skills precluded him from having the mental capacity of coming up with anything original in retort.
+--- 21899429
+>>21899416
+Well yeah, that is my takeaway for now. It looks pretty repulsive for a game posted in a thread where people claim video games are superior to other art forms such as painting and film.
+--- 21899430
+>>21899423
+not an argument
+--- 21899442
+>>21899425
+Not an argument
+--- 21899443
+>>21899338
+No there are plenty of great and short pieces of prose. The bar is just lower for film
+--- 21899448
+>>21899443
+trip tier reading comprehension
+--- 21899449
+>>21898941
+>>21899300
+LMAO
+--- 21899459
+you genuinely need to leave this board if you think video games are the highest form of art
+--- 21899462
+>>21899425
+Yeah, he can't even use the word positivist correctly. I wonder if he knows how much of an idiot he looks when he tries to use words like that but fails? He can only use quips like "cope" "not an argument". No doubt he's also used "seethe" and "touch grass" or will soon. He's probably trolling while he plays Fortnite or whatever it is he considers as art for a video game.
+--- 21899463
+>>21899448
+Hamlet is generally read not performed, I mean it is highly regarded as a text not just as performance which you don’t seem to grasp
+--- 21899468
+>>21899463
+trip tier non sequitur
+--- 21899570
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Yes, since language is also our political instrument.
+--- 21899575
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Probably, as you not only have to be able to write well but if you want to partake in it there's a high barrier to entry. Having to be literate and dedicate time to sitting down and reading something gate keeps plebs a lot more than just mindlessly watching or listening to something. 
+>>21899211
+This also, I'd say playing in an orchestra is the highest form of musical art.
+--- 21899598
+>>21899380
+The Forgotten City
+--- 21899601
+>>21899380
+Grim fandango
+--- 21899603
+>>21899328
+that's why I only play paradox games and soulslikes
+--- 21899623
+>>21899092
+> but people think "old is gold"
+>Just like the retards that keep riding horses to this day.
+What a fantastic way to turn a reasonable point into a showcase of your stupidity.
+--- 21899652
+>>21899601
+I tried to play it because I loved Psychonauts and point-and-clickers as a kid. It was disappointing, honestly, I expected a much more developed atmosphere, maybe I didn't get deep enough into the story to get to the interesting parts? And the riddles were tiring.
+
+>>21899598
+Is this what redditors consider to be good writing?
+--- 21899667
+>>21899652
+>4chinlets consider it to be bad writing
+o i am laffin
+--- 21899673
+The actual reason vidya is the best is because it blocks retards from consuming it. If you don't understand a book you can still read every word in order and claim that you "read" it, but a game will block you from reaching the end unless actually you deserve it.
+--- 21899678
+>>21899673
+almost as if... they're games instead of art?
+--- 21899681
+>>21899678
+crope
+--- 21899710
+>>21899667
+It really is generic and non-literary.
+Not that a /mu/tard with his stale decade-old catchphrases would notice. So, whatever.
+--- 21899714
+>>21898937 (OP)
+It's the lowest form of art. The only reason it has better works is because it is free from the influence of jewish shareholders. As an art form, however, it is still the lowest.
+--- 21899717
+>>21899710
+>generic
+>non-literary
+Ah, the piercing insights gleaned from 4 choppy images in MS Paint.
+>Not that a /mu/tard with his stale decade-old catchphrases would notice. So, whatever.
+I can tell by your attitude that you are extremely frustrated with your own life. I hope you make it to the top, champ. You'll become a more charitable person, which can only be good for the world.
+--- 21899724
+>>21899652
+You just got filtered senpai
+--- 21899725
+>>21899380
+Portal 2
+--- 21899728
+>>21899380
+pale_fire.html
+--- 21899735
+>>21899717
+Not an argument. Oh, and projecting. Cope.
+--- 21899737
+>>21899735
+not an argument
+--- 21899741
+>>21899735
+>implying miserable internet strangers can get me to cope
+Nah, it's a great game. Elementary in its philosophy, admittedly, but a lot of fun to play with some well-done Socratic dialogue.
+--- 21899745
+>>21899737
+not an argument
+--- 21899747
+>>21898941
+>gesamtkunstwerk
+well I learned something new today
+god, German is a monstrous language
+--- 21899754
+>>21899745
+not two arguments
+>>21899747
+pleb
+--- 21899761
+>>21899754
+not an argument
+--- 21899770
+>>21899761
+no est pas uno argumenten
+--- 21899775
+>>21899770
+not an argument
+--- 21899779
+>people unironically mentioning video games
+--- 21899795
+>>21899775
+ᚪᛚᛚ×ᛘᛖᚾ×ᚪᚱᛖ×ᛘᚩᚱᛏᚪᛚ 
+ᛋᚩᚳᚱᚪᛏᛖᛋ×ᛁᛋ×ᚪ×ᛘᚪᚾ 
+ᛋᚩᚳᚱᚪᛏᛖᛋ×ᛁᛋ×ᛘᚩᚱᛏᚪᛚ
+--- 21899800
+>>21899795
+not an argument
+--- 21899806
+>>21899725
+--- 21899808
+>>21899800
+wrong
+--- 21899810
+>>21899808
+not an argument
+--- 21899818
+>>21899810
+no, it's a statement
+--- 21899820
+>>21899818
+not an argument
+--- 21899825
+>>21899820
+idiot says not an argument
+--- 21899826
+>>21899825
+not an argument
+--- 21899850
+>>21899848
+wrong
+--- 21899860
+>>21899856
+no, it's a statement
+--- 21899865
+>>21899862
+idiot says not an argument
+--- 21899885
+>>21899867
+Bro...let me give you some advice. Just say "not a retort"
+--- 21899886
+>>21899717
+>the piercing insights gleaned from 4 choppy images in MS Paint
+I don't know, if I wanted to attract someone to a good book, movie or album I'd post a good passage / shot / song from there, not random stuff whose value I discard at the first sight of criticism.
+--- 21899892
+>people start mentioning video games
+>thread quality plummets
+vidyaniggers deserve the rope
+--- 21899896
+>>21899885
+I don't care that much to type out a new response. I just paste the reply and fill out the captcha.
+--- 21899940
+>>21899886
+Your loss if you think there is nothing of value.
+--- 21899941
+>>21898941
+This is one way to define art as a tangible product of creative work, but often the highest arts are regarded based on how they spur internal thought and feeling. By this definition videogames are the lowest because your consciousness is captured and numbed by constant stimulation. Good literature on the other hand excels at creating a rich internal atmosphere to experience, which can be used to reflect on not only the art itself but also one’s own life.
+--- 21899951
+>>21899092
+>Just like the retards that keep riding horses to this day.
+
+Riding horses is incredibly good for your back muscles and posture. Driving in comparison is detrimental. Your view is out of touch with reality.
+--- 21899962
+>>21899940
+So I'm supposed to try every random shitty game that gets posted by people on this site because, oh no, otherwise I might miss out?
+If you have no positive things to say or show regarding the game, don't act like it's comparable to fucking Nabokov.
+--- 21899970
+>>21899962
+Nabokov wasn't very good-looking. I wouldn't want to fuck him.
+--- 21899979
+>>21899970
+Are you up for some fisting?
+--- 21899980
+>>21899380
+TUNIC
+It even employs layers and intertextuality as well.
+--- 21899987
+>>21899979
+If you think you can knock me down you seriously underestimate my obesity, old man.
+--- 21899996
+>>21899962
+Not my fault you consider Nabokov to be the zenith of art.
+--- 21900002
+>>21899996
+It was >>21899380 who brought up Nabokov, I don't consider him a zenith of art but he's definitely more interesting to read than the crap from the screenshot.
+--- 21900012
+>>21900002
+The Forgotten City definitely isn't as profound in its meditations as Nabokov or anyone of similar caliber, but as far as video games go, it does a great job of making one think about morals, especially through the lenses of Stoicism and multiple deistic beliefs.
+
+To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes. The prose isn't Proustian but the knowledge imparted is quality.
+--- 21900016
+>>21900012
+>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly
+--- 21900021
+>>21900016
+I'm not at all surprised that you have in your reactions folder pictures of young women that are barely legal as a proxy avatar.
+--- 21900030
+>>21899980
+For Nabokov you need to have read quite a few books to enjoy him and for Tunic you need to have played games as well to enjoy it. Checks out
+--- 21900031
+>>21900021
+no human is illegal
+--- 21900032
+>>21900012
+>The Forgotten City definitely isn't as profound in its meditations as Nabokov or anyone of similar caliber
+But that's the thing. People were claiming their games are as great as the literary classics. At least you're admitting this one isn't even close.
+>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes.
+Some game writer read Seneca (or, more likely, his Wikipedia page), dug out a quote from there to put it in a game, and that's supposed to impress me? Jesus fuck.
+--- 21900043
+>>21900032
+It's a first glance at a much deeper game. You're welcome to make presumptions, but I suggest trying the game. It doesn't go into the far reaches of Classical Philosophy but it is a game that makes you think, and that to me is quality art.
+--- 21900044
+>someone on /lit/ asks a question about art
+>entire thread is filled with people saying video games are superior (lmao) and that literature is a low art form
+Why the fuck are you losers here?
+--- 21900050
+>>21900044
+They are. If Tolstoy lived today, he'd be a gamer.
+--- 21900051
+>>21900044
+Because I enjoy reading and also being a contrarian who loves to anger all sides whenever possible.
+--- 21900054
+>>21900044
+>contrarianism? on my 4channel board?
+--- 21900055
+>>21899714
+>The only reason it has better works is because it is free from the influence of jewish shareholders.
+Lel it's a business same as any other
+--- 21900063
+>>21900054
+>contrarianism
+>redditors fellating gaymes because they're manchildren
+--- 21900087
+>>21900050
+video games are about as far away as possible from tolstoy's definition of art
+--- 21900098
+>>21900087
+Because he lived in a time where it was not a concept. He'd be a 50,000-viewer Twitch streamer today. In fact, it can be argued Destiny is the modern Tolstoy.
+--- 21900105
+>>21900098
+nice alleged certainty fallacy you got there
+--- 21900107
+>>21900105
+It's fact brodie
+--- 21900159
+>>21899333
+>At least it's finally on its way to be accepted as something that isn't entirely for light entertainment and for kids
+Yeah, but only because they're turning into movies with high representation of current political thing.
+--- 21900249
+Literature isn't art.
+t.Strindberg
+--- 21900250
+>>21900159
+Nope. Those are triple A games and they are negligible.
+--- 21900281
+>>21900250
+>Those are triple A games and they are negligible
+Negligible to people who like video games and were playing them before they were earning respect. To the people you're talking about who judged them and didn't respect them before the AAA movie games are the vanguard.
+--- 21900430
+>>21898941
+/v/toddlers get out
+--- 21900441
+>>21898941
+based, but if we're looking at the amount of things you can learn and if we quantified it through the amount of text containing information, video games would be far below books
+--- 21900481
+Those cheap 'leatherbound' editions have ruined leather bound books for me
+--- 21900650
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Second only to music. Literature can't contend with Beethoven or even Schubert. Visual and plastic arts are lower than /lit/, but plebs will always think stuff like painting is higher than music and literature because of its inherently sensuous nature.
+>>21899208
+>mixture of
+If you think this is a good thing you know nothing about art, typical for a fa/tv/irgin. Art is not entirely about mechanical composition, and only pure art forms can be the highest.
+>>21899941
+Good post.
+>>21899402
+Love me some Noita but imagine calling it the highest art form.
+--- 21900840
+>>21900650
+>inherently sensuous nature as opposed to music
+--- 21900867
+>>21900840
+Humans are primarily visual.
+--- 21901064
+>>21900867
+Still retarded.
+--- 21901090
+>>21899100
+Faulkner was right
+--- 21901121
+Right order straight from God coming through.
+--- 21901268
+>>21901121
+It's not true randomness (algorithmic)
+--- 21901483
+>>21900650
+Music? You mean spoken poetry, surely.
+--- 21901498
+>>21901064
+Start with the Greeks.
+>>21901483
+I consider that part of literature, (the pinnacle in fact.)
+--- 21901529
+Highest ceiling lowest floor. Lit in potential can induce more beauty and mental change than any other art by merit of its purely mental nature enabling it to construct individual beauties supreme to that individual mind who reads it, however of all the arts, literature is the worst on average, producing the least amount of enjoyment on average. The average song is listenable, the truly average book is unbearable boring. The bad poem is boring and forgettable, the bad film or song is at least mockable, the only time lit is fun to mock is when it’s the lowest levels of fan fiction and so forth.
+
+While I agree that eventually perhaps video games and other such couple have more potential if they fully integrate the other arts; they’re too young meaning they haven’t had thousands of years of masters and build up. But even then, it would still be a mixed bag within the game, stuff like elder scrolls actively try to integrate reading but in reality that just becomes reading books within the context of a game, it’s still just reading ultimately. 
+
+so yes highest art is writing, but it’s also the most mid and most low tier art possible on average. 
+
+Surely a cheeseburger or a brick or a string repeated over and over are all more impressive feats of artistry than say a rupi kaur poem.
+--- 21901532
+>>21899459
+Videogames as interactive films are the highest form of art.
+--- 21901536
+>>21899678
+I laughed but he does have a point, an invalid point.
+You can troll in videogames, see multiplayer. But with books you can only troll yourself.
+--- 21901538
+>>21899328
+I do think one day there will be a Visual-novel William Blake, whose a phenomenal writer and his drawings are just as impressive, I just hope that man is well received and pastiched.
+--- 21901542
+>>21900044
+It's just /v/ dunking on /tv/
+--- 21901544
+>>21901529
+>Highest ceiling lowest floor
+Nope, that's music. Literature is second to it like I said. Bad music isn't just "boring," it's straight up disgusting brainrot. And good music can bring you states of ecstasy and partial enlightenment.
+--- 21901547
+>>21901121
+If sculpture is art the so is architecture.
+--- 21901551
+>>21898937 (OP)
+i think music is. look at the orgiastic ecstasy that music brings out of people.
+--- 21901552
+>>21901547
+Is feederism art?
+--- 21901553
+>>21901532
+No, the interactive element works against it being an art, not in favor. It's essentially a digital board game.
+--- 21901554
+>>21901551
+my other argument for music being the highest artform, is that it's a form of communication which is only explained by mathematics and physics
+--- 21901556
+>>21898941
+Long ago I played this janky piece of work and it really touched me in a way nothing else ever has. Here I've seen all these courageous tales of a wandering hero who sorts out all a city's problems with an unwavering sense of justice and a strong arm
+>see woman being abducted
+>try to help
+>die
+damn, guess I need to improve 
+>save her
+>be invited in for tea
+>interrupted by local toughs trying to force them to move
+> intervene? Sit quietly in shame to survive?
+>die
+
+It was the first time a game ever made me feel like I had to run, or swallow my pride. There's no saving except save-and-quit, so sometimes you really do have to bail on a run to avoid losing dozens of hours of progress on your sword (the only thing that carries between runs). 
+Over time you get to feel out all the goings-on and hidden plots in town and you can finesse the true good ending by knowing where to apply pressure. But on the way you'll also be forced to make unjust choices, playing out every popular archetype of the wandering samurai, with real takes. All this while being a little silly and more than a little old and busted. 
+It was revelatory in a way no other kind of art has ever been for me. That said, I don't think it's the highest form, either.
+--- 21901567
+I can't take music seriously. It's way too passive and the average music enjoyer listens to the same 3 songs a hundred times per day. 
+Plus listening to a 50 min album of a non-commercial genre is considered a major commitment to the wildest, most daring music fan. 
+Books demand more of you. More time, more commitment. The most ambitious can be read in no less than 50-60 hours. While the most experimental, avant-garde film is 48 hours at best and just demand you sit on your ass for that time.
+--- 21901570
+>>21901544
+>Nope, that's music.
+
+Nah no way, bring the lowest quality music you can and at least it’ll have some memorable quality, it can be fun to mock, compare it to the worst of poetry. Even if the music makes you feel bad or just sounds like a mess, that is better than what the worst poetry does. 
+
+>bad music isn't just "boring," it's straight up disgusting brainrot. 
+
+Bad writing is the same but worse since it’s superior propaganda, just harder to consume for the average person. The beats have made many drug addicts and perverts of otherwise intelligent people who couldn’t be swayed by popular music for example, the sadists produced by de sade are worse than the worst perversion music has produced.
+
+>And good music can bring you states of ecstasy and partial enlightenment.
+
+And great poetry induces great ecstasy, tears, transcendental states that you call enlightenment, absorption into the sublime and the sublate, etc. and all at superior levels for, while music is and has always been popular, its the speech and the tongue, it’s the poem and prose work, the scripture, which controls the heart and soul of nations, the war song inspires the army, the warful book forms the army and makes the war. 
+
+Now of course they can be combined, it’s just that the length of the Long poems makes this very very difficult.
+--- 21901576
+Fashion > cooking > music > literature > architecture > film > diarrhea > vidya > the rest
+--- 21901586
+>>21901553
+Picture yourself in a museum where there is an special painting and the only requirement to watch it is that you have to paint a line on it yourself afterwards. Does that stop the painting from being art? 
+Now see how stupid your argument against interactivity actually sounds.
+--- 21901588
+>>21901576
+How about hairstyling and makeup?
+--- 21902098
+>>21900055
+No, it doesn't need heavy investment. Anyone can privately publish a book.
+--- 21902180
+>>21899380
+planescape torment
+--- 21902199
+>>21901547
+>so is architecture
+start with the Greeks
+--- 21902309
+>>21899297
+Classic burger calls painting "art"
+>I like art, I go to museums to see it.
+
+As for the rest of the thread noone seems to consider the user/consumer/observer's involvement.
+
+Literature will always feel good for reasons of personal immersion, literally the amount of time you spend to take in the artwork.
+Other forms can't have that, but the immediacy of those forms has it's own value.
+Music and paintinga might invoke more visceral emotion, but it's also ephemeral, feels like it just happened.
+Cinema is in between, you have to sit there with your body 2 or 3 hours and experience it.
+A book is a companion for a few days or weeks of your life.
+
+I think everyone keeps arguing while having different standards in mind
+--- 21902317
+>>21899331
+No serious individual considers The Godfather to be a great film. Also film is not a literary/narrative art you fool. 
+If you have seen Bresson, Dreyer and Ozu films you will understand.
+Anyway, Music is the highest art as it is the most abstract. That is what the "highest art" is.
+--- 21902323
+>>21902317
+Lmao babbys first dip into arthouse huh?
+--- 21902329
+>>21902323
+No. I was just using Schrader's examples of transcendental filmmakers. They are well-known enough that i would expect most people to have seen a few of their films here.
+--- 21902354
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Cinema is the highest form of art. Inglourious Basterds is better than any book you can throw at me. I'll wait.
+--- 21902358
+>>21898941
+There is not a single video game that has even touched the heights that Cinema is able to reach
+--- 21902368
+>>21902354
+not an argument
+--- 21902373
+>>21902354
+>3 good scenes make a 2 1/2 slog the highest form of art
+this is your brain on /tv/
+--- 21902377
+Literature > Movies (pre 2008) > Music (album longform) > Learning math > Making music > Painting > video games (pre 2008) > movies (post 2008) > video games (post 2008)
+--- 21902385
+>>21902354
+Kafka's Complete Stories.
+--- 21902404
+To all the vidya anons in this thread, I sympathise but I also think video games that are put forward as examples of art are highly overrated set pieces and walking sims.
+
+People think aesthetics = art. I would put forward something like System Shock as a work of art. Highly detailed and intricate levels with many solutions to find your way around. Hidden secrets. Locked areas requiring puzzle solving. Careful and strategy rich combat. Resource management. It is a game that is great at being a game.
+
+A piece of art in my opinion, should be the highest pure form of what it is. The thing... on its own terms.
+
+The Porsche 911 is a work of art. It isnt some pretentious sleek machine that looks good and guides you through an emotional experience. It is a well crafted and perfectly balanced machine. It performs well under many circumstances. It breaks smoothly. It accelerates quickly but not jarringly. It handles like it were an extension of your body. It is quiet and stable at high speed. It is a car in its purest form.
+
+Other games that are great at being game-y, if you will:
+>Age Of Empires II
+>Deus Ex
+>Resident Evil (2002 remake)
+--- 21902557
+>>21901567
+>It's way too passive
+The standard way of enjoying music was playing/singing by yourself until very recently and the option hasn't gone away.
+>Plus listening to a 50 min album of a non-commercial genre is considered a major commitment to the wildest, most daring music fan.
+(not true, btw) but also irrelevant. 
+>. More time, more commitment. The most ambitious can be read in no less than 50-60 hours.
+Labour theory of value lol.
+--- 21903458
+>>21899302
+What's funny about this is that it gives off this "90s GCI demo" vibe, like obviously the only reason the skull is there is to show off this specific technical trick.
+--- 21903470
+>>21899416
+This has every marking of "indie dev can't design for shit, and so slathers crazy physics everywhere to try to make it seem interesting"
+--- 21903483
+>>21900012
+
+>>21900016
+That's all that needs to be said really. Like, the fact that you can be on a board like /lit/ and say something like this is embarrassing to both yourself and anyone who would even in principle agree with what you are trying to argue.
+--- 21903682
+>>21900044
+It's bait.
+--- 21903723
+>>21899100
+https://youtu.be/kE7Ot5E4X7A [Embed]
+It's this. Bach > the rest.
+--- 21903872
+>>21901586
+>Does that stop the painting from being art?
+In your example the interactivity is painting the line. Is the act of painting the line art? Or is the painting art?
+--- 21904644
+>>21901121
+You didn't run it through TempleOS, so it doesn't count.
+>>21903470
+Slathering crazy physics is the kind of art Gods themselves get into
+--- 21904666
+>>21901588
+Probably under fashion
+--- 21904845
+>>21898937 (OP)
+No, music is.
+--- 21905432
+>>21898941
+Yes, bideo gaems are a mishmash of pretty much all the major forms of art. But that is their only claim to legitimately being called “art”. The elements of games by themselves, visuals, music, writing, are piss-poor in comparison to discrete individual works.
+--- 21905466
+Vidya is shit. Get the fuck off this board.
+--- 21905470
+>>21905466
+>open ended question in OP
+>mad the responses are varied
+Imagine
+--- 21905481
+>>21905470
+But surely you can't think that NaughtyDog compares to Cervantes? That Kojima could threaten Dostoevsky? Miyamoto is better than Dante!?
+--- 21905498
+There's a good argument for music, but I can't appreciate it. I can only feel anything if I play it, it's wonderful, but just listening to it doesn't make me feel a thing (unless it's combined with visual artwork).
+--- 21905532
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Music and visual arts are higher than literature, because they convey meaning directly. At best, language conveys meaning roundabout, using approximations between the author and audience. The use of language itself causes this, as the meta-language is lossy-encoded by the intrinsic limitation of language.
+On that note, music is more direct even than visual arts, precisely because artists are so concerned with adorning their visual art with a language to contextualize meaning, thus reducing its communicative ability. More often than not, visual art is also approaching meaning roundabout.
+
+>>21898941
+Video games, like cinema, are elevated highest by sound, especially music, to the point that the lack of sound or music is as meaningful as the inclusion of it. If it wasn't for the visuals and, especially, the music, video games wouldn't be any different than literature. Artist meaning is obscured by gameplay itself, further by control inputs, becoming the language of games, which carries all the lossy-encoding of any other language.
+--- 21905539
+>>21905498
+Musical anhedonia?
+Autism?
+--- 21905614
+>raised by the tv screen
+>thinks film is the highest artform
+Why are you faggots like this?
+--- 21905637
+>>21905532
+>Music and visual arts are higher than literature, because they convey meaning directly
+Except they don't. They allude it at best.
+Song lyrics are closer to twitter posts in terms of form and content. Film screenplays are the backbone of summary of a mediocre novel.
+There is no meaning in music, it is the most cynical of all artforms.
+--- 21905641
+>>21905637
+terrible post
+--- 21905650
+>>21905641
+Put on your headphones and go cry in a corner pretending the world doesn't exist, faggot.
+--- 21905671
+>>21905614
+Its not the highest, it's too representative. Music is, without a doubt, the highest artform, as it is the most abstract.
+Highest does not mean "best" or "my favorite." Those are different things.
+>>21905637
+Are you serious?
+--- 21905681
+>>21905650
+awful retort
+--- 21905719
+>>21905671
+How are they different?
+>>21905681
+Someone doesn't agree with you. How could this possibly happen? Terrible isn't it.
+--- 21905743
+i was blackpilled on music by Islam and Tolstoy. it's definitely the most effective art form but I wouldn't call it the greatest. narrative is far more important to the human condition than the sensations we feel from music. a great myth or novel is more valuable in the long-term than a good piece of music
+--- 21905772
+>>21905719
+I feel highest mean most divine, least connected to human grievances. Therefore, music is the highest.
+--- 21905794
+>>21905719
+your retardation is what's terrible
+--- 21905819
+Literature is just applied poetry which is just applied music which is just applied geometry which is just applied mindfulness meditation which is just applied video games which is just an applied US Navy PSYOP which is just applied Army Logistics which is just applied Geography which is the highest form of art as described by Strabo in Book 1 of Geography.
+--- 21905827
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Yes. Just as important, if not more so, than cave paintings that defined our capability for artistic integrity.
+--- 21905939
+>>21905481
+Some Kojima IS better than some Dostoevsky.
+On a work-by work basis, he might yet achieve better median quality in his lifetime, even despite the fact that he's a loon
+--- 21906035
+>>21905939
+Who the fuck is kojima
+--- 21906606
+>>21901576
+Instagram posting > sucking dick > makeup > gossiping > fashion > cooking > music > literature > architecture > film > diarrhea > vidya > the rest
+--- 21907351
+>>21898941
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X3GP8FjogE [Embed]
+--- 21907614
+>>21898941
+--- 21907620
+>>21907614
+FUCK I just bought the abridged edition
+--- 21907625
+the highest? no, that would be rasta music.
+--- 21908002
+>>21899208
+So, in your logic, films are the best because they are a mixture of other arts. If we follow your logic, then the highest form of art would be videogames, since it not only has every form of art you mentioned, but also have others like playability and graphics.
+--- 21908134
+video games are not art. people thinking that they are tend to be the worst and the most annoying faggots. funnily enough, what they consider best make for terrible games and could be done better in other media
+--- 21908148
+>>21908002
+>graphics
+Visuals are one category, dumbass. Graphics has literally never meant anything and I'd assume you're underage if I didn't know retards like you who are my own age.
+--- 21908165
+>>21908148
+You said "photographic framing" which is a total different thing than graphics. 
+Graphics includes drawings, 3d models, live action scenes, CGI scenes, and I can go on.
+--- 21908805
+>>21899349
+--- 21908941
+>>21900012
+>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes.
+There is nothing impressive in quoting philosophy. The presentation, or any original insights, matters far more.
+--- 21908969
+>>21898941
+>video games only arrived in time for the cultural death of a decaying world
+Imagine if vidya had gotten started a century earlier, when our creative spirit was still raging. Video games are a medium of endless potential, and can engage you and tell stories in ways no other medium possibly can. Truly life-changing kino would've come out by now, to appreciated by scholars for centuries to come. Genuinely tragic.
+--- 21909014
+>>21906035
+Hideo Kojima is a video game director responsible for the Metal Gear video game series, among other notable works. People joke that he really would rather make movies, but he does a lot of interesting stuff with gameplay as a mechanic for storytelling as well. 
+If you consider the MGS series his magnum opus, there's probably an argument to be made he's closer to Cervantes then Dosto. It's a series that's half-parody half-admiration of the pulp American spy movie. The characters are often extremely exaggerated and the situations preposterous, but the series is also full of genuinely tender, tragic, and triumphant moments. Also he also plays with the medium, like a boss who "reads your mind" by checking for saves of other games on your memory card and telling you about them, and in the middle of the fight he becomes unbeatable if you don't physically unplug your controller and put it in a different slot. There's also all kinds of very specific tailored asides to the player depending on, interactions with the world, eg, if you're just screwing around shooting seagulls your officer calls your character to berate him for the senseless violence, stuff like that. There's a preposterous amount of side dialogue, and so forth. Apparently he's gotten even more artsy over time, but I haven't checked in for quite a while. 
+I don't know if it makes games a high art form, but there are definitely a lot of terrible "classics" with less artistic merit than MGS3.
+--- 21909024
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Fuck no.
+--- 21909037
+>>21909014
+it's a stupid video game and he himself says they aren't art
+--- 21909070
+>>21909037
+>he himself says they aren't art
+yeah, he also says clones' feelings aren't real.
+What the fuck does he know?
+--- 21909238
+>>21909014
+Everything Hideo Kojima touches ends up some funny business for the next 20 years, so it's good enough for me
+--- 21909971
+>>21898937 (OP)
+No: that would be warfare.
+--- 21910116
+>>21898937 (OP)
+>do you think literature is the highest form of art?
+OP is a master jester as you can see. The question he poses to us, despite it being able to be answered with a single word, is actually very complex. Read into it and ask yourself:
+What is art?
+What are the "forms" of art?
+What makes a form of art "higher" than another?
+What is included in "literature"?
+
+Since OP is asking for an "opinion" I will start off answering these questions and ultimately give an answer to the full question:
+
+Art is anything humans make or do, so the forms include everything made/done by humans; higher art is that which is more effective and efficient in portraying the ideas/feelings of the artist. Since I believe efficiency is of high importance then the highest form of art is whatever leaves the biggest impact with the least effort. I include in literature everything whose primary form of portraying ideas involves writing and reading.
+
+Both writing and reading require a lot of effort, so they are not very efficient art forms, therefore literature is not a high form of art. Live spontaneous contemporary art performances with no props done quickly are the highest form of art.
+Think about this next time you take a shit in a public bathroom.
+--- 21910137
+>ctrl+f opera
+>zero results
+--- 21910379
+stanley kubrick showed me that it could be film. 2001 is the apex of western art, just like the moon landing was the apex of western civilisation.
+--- 21910410
+>>21899333
+see what this anon has said
+>>21899349
+video games, at the moment, are long past their peak (at least AAA are) in terms of emotionally and artistically technical masterpieces because there's just too much money flowing into the industry right now - video games now make more money than the movie and music industries combined
+how can something so profitable have any sort of soul in the classical sense?
+
+pic related are considered to be some of the most sublime and beautiful stories in video games
+they all released within 6 years of each other in the early 2000s
+--- 21910414
+>>21910410
+>in terms of being* emotionally and artistically technical masterpieces
+--- 21910417
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Poetry transcends literature and all other forms of art.
+--- 21910418
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Men wasting barbarians and constructing cities for women to have and raise children in is peak art OP.
+--- 21910445
+>>21910410
+Yeah I've never played games at all but I've always thought Silent Hill 2 is about as best as it can get. I agree with your point that they're long past their peak.
+--- 21910456
+>>21910137
+His Music-Dramas are their own thing.
+--- 21910458
+Counterargument against movies and video games (as if you really need one): the more people work on a thing, the worse it is. Also, the more money involved, the worse it is. Every time a work of art goes through an editor, producer, committee, label etc. it's less of a work. Movies, video games, modern popular music, and so on, go through hundreds of people, and that's why they're bad.
+--- 21910461
+>>21910458
+Cont.: The same goes for an old artform like Opera, obviously. That's why calling Wagner's music the peak of art is a completely legitimate statement. He fully mastered a massive artform that would previously require many people, and engineered several amazing works all on his own.
+--- 21910568
+>>21910458
+Couldn't this also be said of orchestral pieces?
+--- 21910625
+>>21901556
+ Great post, I love The Way of the Samurai 4 and 3, I should play the earlier ones
+--- 21910803
+>>21910137
+false
+--- 21910812
+>>21910458
+Shit argument. Tonnes of games are made by a single person.
+--- 21910825
+>>21910812
+This just in, Touhou is the highest art! /jp/ wins again!
+--- 21910921
+Poetry, though... It can't be as universal as music, but if the language isn't the problem, then it can be a higher form.
+--- 21910946
+Music is highly regarded as the greatest art form. Read shopenhauer
+--- 21910972
+Literature is highly regarded as the greatest art form. Read hegel
+--- 21910985
+>>21910461
+At least with traditional Opera the artwork was usually dominated by one of the central artists, at most two. The composer would have a very specific idea of what he wanted and either the librettist would be his partner or would be told what to do like the choreographer, set designer, costume designer, etc.
+--- 21911051
+>>21910379
+>2001
+the novel was better
+--- 21911505
+>>21901570
+Fair enough, you've convinced me. I just think human consciousness has metamorphosed, (likely for the worse, the self-conscious modern is undeniably more robotic,) in a way that poetry no longer rouses us like it used to, whereas the geometrical nature of music does still hold some vestigial sway over us.
+--- 21911580
+>>21902377
+This is dumb but I'll bite: what happened in 2008? Obama?
+--- 21911655
+>>21911580
+Nta, but he's probably referring to pic related
+--- 21911657
+>>21910461
+Devil's advocate here: AI will eventually make it possible for the average person to make blockbuster films on his own. What then?
+--- 21911743
+>>21902309
+--- 21912204
+>>21910972
+Hegel never spoke of literature but of poetry. There were not many novels back in his age.
+--- 21912208
+>>21912204
+Poetry is literature.
+--- 21913381
+>>21899380
+Subarashiki hibi
+--- 21913829
+>>21898941
+twerk lol
+--- 21913929
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Art is an object producing a crafted beautiful experience.
+We will take artform to be simply a member in the extension of all those we already standardly consider artforms.
+Beauty is the comprehension of unity in variety.
+
+Thm: Videogames have the hgihest capability of displaying the highest variety as an artform
+Cor: Videogames have the highest potential as an artform
+--- 21913954
+>>21913929
+not an argument
+--- 21914187
+>>21900012
+>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes.
+This is exactly why nobody takes video games seriously as an artform. Quoting philosophy doesn't make you look smart at all. Fucking hell, the Greek philosophers even talked about people who namedrop philosophers just to look smart, but aren't.
+Go back to /v/ where your filth belong. You don't have a high enough IQ or have read enough books (or have enough knowledge of said books) to browse here.
+
+>>>/v/
+--- 21914209
+>>21914187
+>Quoting philosophy doesn't make you look smart at all. Fucking hell, the Greek philosophers even talked about people who namedrop philosophers just to look smart, but aren't.
+This is true, but try telling that to literally anyone before like 1980. For a medieval, the fact that The Philosopher said any particular tidbit made it automatically a good argument. 19th century lit is particularly full of retards who namedrop to sound smart, with clearly no command of the material. It's pseud as hell, but still highly respected as art.
+--- 21914217
+>>21914187
+This is why I also don't get the dicksucking of Kojima by his fans, it seems like people confuse regurgitating preexisting sociological theories about social engineering in terrible expository dialogue with artistry and I'll just never understand it.
+--- 21914258
+>>21914217
+Kojima's not even the worst, but if you're 14 and have never read anything heavy yourself, having some other, more accessible, reference something philosophical or literary looks like the height of intelligence. Kojima's not even the worst, Xeno-series fags fall for this shit the hardest. Just one sappropriated western-mystic concept/namedrop and those dopes can't tell the difference between that and depth.
+--- 21915342
+>>21910568
+What? No? The artwork is the piece. Then it's entirely up to the conductor how to perform it. That's another thing entirely. However, there are instances of composers even conducting their own works.
+>>21911657
+AI is dumb and lame as fuck, so I don't really care.
+--- 21915352
+>>21910812
+You're right. My argument would be better just by saying that video games are a shit medium regardless how many people work on it.
+I'm still interested though, name some examples.
+--- 21915363
+>>21898937 (OP)
+No, it's music. I love reading, but music is something that transcends words or what we can see.
+--- 21915376
+>>21902317
+>>21892458 →
+--- 21915418
+professional wrestling is the highest form of art
+--- 21915429
+>>21899214
+The majority of every medium is low quality trash, including literature. For every <insert "masterpiece"> there are a 1000 shitty YA and other trashy novels and self-help books that are nothing more than marketing scams.
+--- 21915775
+>>21898937 (OP)
+No, aerobatics is.
+--- 21915783
+>>21899092
+>why did people stopped painting caves?
+They literally didn't.
+--- 21915789
+>>21899725
+slop
+>>21899380
+Frogger
+--- 21915801
+>>21899402
+>it's art because it has lots of neon particles zooming around the screen
+I hate this "aesthetic" so much. ADHD zoomers ruined games.
+--- 21915807
+>>21914217
+Kojima isn't liked for the philosophical content of his games, which is shallower than a puddle. He's liked because of the campy dialogue and good gameplay (of the first three solid games)
+--- 21915826
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Much like how making good literature in German is a higher achievement than English, due to the limitations of the language, literature is the highest form of art because it is the most difficult. Language is not one of our immediate senses as it is already clouded by vague but concrete forces unbeknownst to it's user. It also shapes the reality and thought of people most profoundly than other senses. We are our thoughts and our thoughts are language. To be able to successfully travail against this yoke and achieve the sublime is a beautiful performance. Visual art attempts to physically manifest our sensory experiences most honestly (i.e. the expressionists) and music seeks to maximise the pleasure of our hearing and so both submits to the senses it relies upon. Videogames in hand also gives too much vain freedom to its users and the openess of the medium only reifies the problem of modern life and it's bareness. Literature is an art made with a broken hand. The same hand that forms man.
+--- 21915840
+>>21898941
+This, when they invent FullDive NerveGear the gesamtkunstwerk will be achieved.
+--- 21915862
+>>21899380
+Black Souls
+--- 21915937
+>>21915807
+There a definitely some people who desperately try to claim him as some kind of avant garde artist and pretend he “says something about society.” But you’re right that the majority of people know that it’s just silly, campy espionage.
+--- 21915948
+>>21898937 (OP)
+Yes it is, since it requires the biggest amount of effort to read compared to other forms of art.
+--- 21916327
+>>21915948
+What if you listen to an audiobook?
+--- 21916915
+>>21916327
+Audiobooks aren't books. They are like audiotapes or radio.
+--- 21916987
+>>21898941
+It pretty much should be except that no video game that actually comes even close to reaching the peek of what is actually possible.
+--- 21917001
+>>21899328
+They can convey complex stories/concepts within video games though, the bigger issue is the people consuming the media itself.
+Publishers and investors won't allow it to be in the game unless they dumb it down.
+A good 3A game perceived as /lit/ tier is probably RDR2 or TLOU. VNs are a completely different field though.
+--- 21917014
+>>21899380
+Disco Elysium
+--- 21917061
+>>21899380
+>not a single mention of Pathologic here
+--- 21917324
+>>21899380
+I'm stumped. vidya btfo lit is where its at
+--- 21917513
+>>21917061
+I was about to post it.
+--- 21917574
+>>21898937 (OP)
+No, music is because it’s a language without words
+--- 21918056
+>>21898937 (OP)
+>>21899114
+sorry, but the only truly gigachad/patrician/etc artform is architecture. this is why once you become a king, you can't help but think about how to mold the built environment in accordance to yor vision. this is just how great men are.
+--- 21918062
+>>21898941
+as someone who dedicated most of their life to designing videogames, you are wrong. the closest thing to a gesamtkunstwerk is architecture (including interior design and urban design). see >>21918056
+--- 21918076
+>>21898937 (OP)
+I cant say that because although I am a writer of both short stories & poetry as well as non-fiction political analysis for my job, I am also a musician and a painter (a bad one...)
+
+I wouldn't say its the highest form, but its the most intellectual in that visual art isnt a perfection of rhetoric or analysis or prose or thought, its expression of feeling; and music is surprisingly logical once you get into it. 
+
+But literature is my favorite by far
+--- 21918091
+>>21918056
+You changed my mind
+--- 21919041
+>>21899092
+>there isn't a single picture on the walls of his room
+--- 21920477
+bump
+--- 21921618
+Yes. 
+Literature encourages you to analyze, feel, and imagine. The painter takes away your imagination by presenting you with their image, so all you have left is to analyze and feel. The musician takes away imagination, too, and leaves you with analyzing and feeling--you cannot create your own world out of the lyrics because they are designed to relate to one you already live in, and songs without lyrics relate to nothing in physical reality. For example, if a classical piece makes you feel as though you are flying, its does not necessarily follow that you will imagine you are flying, where you're flying, why you're flying, and how this relates to the human condition--it only leaves you with a feeling. Literature, on the other hand, encourages each individual to imagine things in their own personal way. To use a simple example, I never imagined Hobbits as a child from LoTR the way the movie portrayed them. The guy behind the movie saw in his imagination the hobbits a certain way, different to mine. But in the film, the only way to think of them was his way. That takes away from art, imo. Of course, LoTR is not literature and is a children's book, but I think the example still holds. It would be the rare anon who hears whistlin' dixie and imagines a whole faulkner novel in his head while listening, kek, but there maybe is one autist out there who defies even my imagination on this topic.
+--- 21921921
+>>21921618
+>he’s never listened to a record that transported him to another time and place
+https://youtu.be/bWebqCRw7o4 [Embed]
+You’re missing out dude
+--- 21921970
+Music alone is the highest art. Many great minds of the past have all come to same conclusion. You can read schopenhauers hierarchy of the arts to get a gist of where he believed different arts rank.
+--- 21921978
+>>21921970
+Here's an image without the rationale
+--- 21921987
+>>21921970
+I think a drawback to music though is that you can only enjoy a piece so many times before it stops being as enjoyable as the first few times you heard it. 
+It’s ingrained that the entire point is to give you pleasure but that also means like a drug the pleasure runs out quick.
+Still makes it the highest form of art imo as that is a sublime quality to have
+--- 21921994
+>>21921987
+>I think a drawback to music though is that you can only enjoy a piece so many times before it stops being as enjoyable as the first few times you heard it.
+That applies to everything and affects music the least.
+--- 21922011
+>>21921987
+Though i disagree and believe the opposite occurs regularly, if we taconsider your supposition we can easily circumvent it through the artists interpretation of compositions.
+--- 21922277
+>>21898937 (OP)
+I'm an autist who min/maxxes my life so I apply that to arts as well. Literature is probably the cheapest way to create eternal masterworks that will enchant people for millennia. Even the cheapest films cost tons of manpower, time, and money, video games are expensive and time consuming to make, paintings are potentially cheaper but becoming a good painter takes plenty of time and materials. However, all you need to create literature is a simple pen and paper, or a typewriter, or PC and all you need to learn to write is to read other books(which are cheap or free if you pirate) and live life. Every single literate human can write literature or fanfiction at the very least and the more people write and compete with each other to create the best work the better the artform of literature itself is.
+--- 21922280
+>>21921994
+Getting a song stuck in your head and growing to hate it is very common but many people reread Ulysses constantly for the rest of their lives.

lit/21902612.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,658 @@
+-----
+--- 21902612
+>Got almost everything right
+>Most influential thinker of the 1920s
+>Is completely forgotten outside some far right circles
+Why was he forgotten?
+--- 21902616
+>>21902612 (OP)
+Because he got almost everything wrong
+--- 21902618
+>>21902616
+The only thing he was wrong about was the Nazis becoming a global power.
+--- 21902620
+>>21902612 (OP)
+They dont want you to know about him
+--- 21902625
+>>21902620
+He was a moderate conservative, hardly a radical far-right character.
+--- 21902629
+>>21902618
+He met Hitler and thought he was an idiot.
+--- 21902632
+>>21902612 (OP)
+>Sex gifs
+>Sussy baka
+--- 21902633
+>>21902618
+he famously said that "in 10 years, there will be no Reich", exactly 10 years before the end of WW2
+--- 21902717
+Spengler and Spenglerian thinking undermines the basic modern dogma: progress. There is a noble spirit in some who reject Spengler on this account, in older terms. A Faustian spirit which seeks progress in the purest sense, an outward thrust towards infinite space. Men of the last century wanted to believe we would go beyond.
+
+Ah, but this degraded into something new: a hideous, prognathous nigger called Social Progress. Look at the barren, desiccated husk of a contemporary feminist preacher, who screams onward to new and more subversive causes. She is the priestess of the new religion, the emblem of nihilism, and the emasculated nu-male, truly a Nietzschean Last Man, is her parishioner under the sacraments of Satan: the suicidal Tranny, the criminal Jigaboo, and the diseased Faggot.
+This priestess, this ugly pseudo-lesbian, operates under such a spiteful yet illusive mind, she refuses to see how empty a worldview she holds. This worldview is populated by one central idea: propaganda. So simple, so carefully wrapped. 
+This is the sort of thing Spengler succinctly described in his analysis on money destroying the intellect (both practical in moneyed elites, but also in its nihilistic takedown of society). The last thing a late-stage liberal wants to hear is the truth, that there is no social progress, and that for all the signalling of virtues, they ultimately believe in nothingness. That all the causes and activism is funded by moneyed elites, often with ulterior motives. 
+This is what all the open sexual debauchery, trannies, faggotry, feminism, and negrolatry amounts to: the inward extermination of western culture. Truly, it is our Burning of the Books.
+What else can they, the modern Liberal of the Soul who is far more than just the Liberal by Name, do with Spengler except spite him, or far more commonly, ignore? How else can they comprehend that for all their inward impulses towards annihilation, that they too operate under a grand Faustian impulse to cover the world in faggotry like a shell, like a will-to-infinite-space? And they who cast the bargain with Mephistopheles must know, the bargain is doomed to fail. The quest is always tragic, and Western Man is destined to look at the infinity of the Void, alone.
+--- 21902724
+>>21902717
+based
+--- 21902743
+>>21902717
+I... I kneel
+--- 21902764
+>>21902717
+Write more, this is good stuff
+--- 21902810
+>>21902717
+what's the other half of harvey dent's face from? It looks really weird.
+--- 21902849
+>>21902618
+He thought America would never matter politically.
+--- 21902882
+>>21902717
+>the emblem of nihilism
+>but also in its nihilistic takedown of society
+give a fucking break faggot, stop using the label of nihilism for that shit make you piss and shit your pants
+--- 21902913
+>>21902882
+You have an IQ of 100.
+--- 21902914
+>>21902810
+scuffed statue of Ronaldo
+--- 21902916
+>>21902849
+I'm pretty sure he says the opposite.
+--- 21902923
+>>21902913
+100/100, yes lmao gottem
+--- 21903000
+>>21902882
+Peak midwit.
+--- 21903001
+>>21902717
+Based and red pilled.
+--- 21903038
+Spengluh,
+Put your culture away, Spengluh.
+I'm not having a decline of civilization with you right now, Spengluh.
+--- 21903043
+>>21902612 (OP)
+Conservatives have basically ceased to exist as an intellectual force. So writers like Spengler and Spann which very well could have been the intellectual foundations of a Conservative revolution post world wars have basically not picked up by anyone with any social & cultural influence (e.g. left-wing academia).
+--- 21903057
+Sex gifs?
+--- 21903104
+>>21902916
+You’re mistaken. He said America “lacked the inner basalt” because it grew up on foreign soil. It’s possible in the end that America isn’t destined to play the historical role that it now appears to be destined to play, but it’s not true that it had no political future in the 1930s.
+--- 21903109
+>>21903043
+Spengler and others were worried that the Nazis would fail and discredit right wing attempts to exit from modernity.
+--- 21903111
+>>21903043
+>Conservatives have basically ceased to exist as an intellectual force.
+
+The current SCOTUS disagrees.
+--- 21903131
+>>21903057
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_j8oRi-rY [Embed]
+--- 21903140
+He didn't really have any influence on any other thinker of note. Only people like Evola.
+--- 21903610
+>>21903140
+
+Spengler was hugely influential among the modernists, particularly David Jones, T.S. Eliot, and Ezra Pound. They maybe aren't thinkers in the sense you're using the term, but they are definitely mainstays of western culture. Spengler should be known, but I think most people just aren't interested in the humanities / culture. I mean, most people have never heard of James Joyce...
+
+In terms of Spengler's popularity amongst those who actually know him, I think the lack of interest in Spengler has more to do with (1) His writings are too long to be read en masse; (2) The decline narrative is played out and mostly false (not to say we are always in an upward trajectory, just that history fluctuates and is generally difficult to pin down in grandiose terms); (3) Teleological interpretations of history and its movements are now outdated.
+--- 21903628
+>>21903140
+This shows how little you know about modern intellectual and cultural history.. Spengler influenced anyone with an IQ over 110 between 1917 and 1940 and beyond. Wittgenstein, Benjamin, Northrop Frye, Heidegger, EVERYBODY read him if only to critique him or assimilate and sublate him into their system critically.
+--- 21903689
+>>21902717
+tldr?
+--- 21903706
+He's just a footnote to Hegel & Schopenhauer.
+--- 21903728
+>>21902612 (OP)
+he's sadly getting too overmemed nowadays
+I wish he was gatekept more
+--- 21903734
+>>21903140
+He influenced Kazantzakis and Paglia said his work should be studied.
+--- 21903753
+>>21902612 (OP)
+>got almost everything right
+That's why. Academics hate good theories, because it puts them out of a job.
+--- 21903779
+>>21903140
+Kissinger told Nixon to read him
+Wittgenstein wrote about him
+And you're a nigger
+--- 21904089
+>>21902717
+Now that's what I call owning the libs
+--- 21904106
+>>21902612 (OP)
+We are a collapsing society. Ideologically the false concept of progress has prevailed and found its way into every part of modern thinking, which of course complete nonsense.
+Spengler will be rediscovered after centuries and considered the greatest thinker of the 20th century.
+--- 21904125
+>>21902625
+Moderate conservative views from the 1920s are hardcore far right terrorist views for 2023
+--- 21904192
+>>21903140
+I know plenty of leftists/post leftists who are obsessed with him and Deleuze and Heidegger
+--- 21904194
+>>21904192
+name 1
+--- 21904254
+>>21904194
+
+Not the original poster, but I know W.H. Auden was a leftist and interested in Spengler.
+--- 21904260
+>>21904192
+thats me
+--- 21905710
+>>21902849
+No he didnt. He specifically called out German writers/thinkers of the late 19th century for missing the fact that after the Civil War New York was becoming one of the most important "world cities"
+--- 21905730
+>>21903140
+William S. Burroughs
+Wittgenstein
+Paglia
+Heidegger
+Joseph Campbell
+Adorno
+Kissinger
+--- 21905739
+im not right wing or religious at all (or even Christian) but Spengler's section on "the figure of Jesus" in Decile is one of the most beautiful things i have ever read.
+--- 21905745
+>>21902717
+more?
+--- 21905749
+>>21905739
+Ever read Jaspers' book on Socrates, Buddha, Confucius, Jesus
+--- 21905752
+>>21905749
+No. tell me more
+--- 21905777
+jesus christ marie
+--- 21905808
+>>21903140
+brainlet
+--- 21905832
+>>21902717
+Supremely based.
+--- 21905852
+>>21902717
+What movie is this image from?
+--- 21905870
+>>21903111
+Yes there are still conservatives in some disciplines like law, political science, and economics. There are nearly zero conservative faculty in the humanities in virtually every major university in the western world.
+--- 21906048
+>>21905739
+I've read some of Spengler's private correspondence that's been published, and I suspect he might've been a believing Protestant. It just wasn't a focus of his work, and something he would think as out of character to write about in that time. And, it would not be popular in the Nietzschean literary circles, maybe, even though Nietzsche had some theologian and religious friends. 
+I always thought there was a discord between Nietzschean and Spenglerian thinking. Clearly, Spengler saw something vital and beautiful in religious faith, specifically in the culture forms of Western Christianity, even though the trend in German philosophy was more anticlerical since Schopenhauer.
+--- 21906774
+>>21906048
+Neetche was just a high IQ permanent angsty teen who rebelled against his theologian parentals. Fuck him, what a disgrace on western thought.
+--- 21906776
+>>21906774
+You deserve to be beat unconscious.
+--- 21907072
+>>21906048
+Vitalism is fundamentally Nietzschean. Spengler is too much of a Nietzschean and it's the worst thing about him. Like he claims to "see further than others" because he doesn't judge history by the same value judgements as everyone else, yet his entire philosophy of history is one giant value judgement. Kultur and Zivilization are value judgements and it's extremely obvious which one Spengler prefers, since throughout the entirety of TDotW he never discusses Zivilization, and when he does it is only in negative terms. For him history ends after the year 1800. 
+
+The distinction between the two phases is still useful but not in the way Spengler does it. Spengler does not want to understand the modern age, like most right wingers he has nothing but revulsion for it. Which makes right wing analysis of modern culture arbitrary and useless. Spengler was a follower of Goethe, but Goethe's most dearly held principle was that there is good in all things - in the philosophy of history this can be translated to mean that if a historical phenomenon exists, then the zeitgeist sees value in it and has need of it. Between the artist in Goethe and the philosopher in Nietzsche, Spengler leans far more heavily toward Nietzsche. 
+
+If anyone is interested in a more serious treatment of the philosophy of Zivilization than Spengler's I recommend reading the essays of John J. Reilly.
+--- 21907146
+>>21902717
+>Faustian
+
+explain what this means in two sentences
+--- 21907170
+>"Where to start Spengler"
+>Second result is sports
+>Third result is Ghostbusters
+>Majority of subsequent results are Ghostbusters
+Perhaps that validates his concerns about post-2000 society. 
+
+Anyway, where to start Spengler?
+--- 21907236
+>>21907146
+I'm not him, but Faust is a character from German legend who sold his soul for infinite knowledge and worldly pleasure, about whom Goethe wrote a play. Spengler uses Faust as a symbol for western civilisation
+--- 21907254
+>>21907170
+The Decline of the West, Vol 1. Huge book. Read the introduction. You'll have an idea. If you're ready, finish the book. If that's troubling, track down some secondary material (most of which you might have to find online). If you're not ready, read his book Man and Tecnics, which although is a matured Spengler, is also a short book. 
+Spengler, despite being autistic, will sometimes intentionally dramatize certain topics, almost like a polemic. Don't expect Kant, where everything is meant to fit under an exact schema. Still, almost everything he writes is in reference to his model of cultural morphology and his view of history.
+--- 21907258
+>>21905870
+There were conservatives in law, but not anymore. Today, they are few and far between and correspond almost exclusively to the oldest population. The same is true for economics. Educational institutions have bred a faculty totally saturated with the same line of thinking and purged most those who stand out. Many of the millennials were filtered out even before they were able to receive a bachelor’s degree and generation z is being filtered out before even attending.
+--- 21907268
+>>21906048
+I detect a lot of nihilism in Spengler. I find it hard to believe he was religious at all and believed in destiny as a naturalistic principle above all. Human life is deterministic in Spengler.
+--- 21907274
+>>21905710
+His exact words are that it lacked the inner basalt like in Goethe’s poem. He was worried about America like he was worried about Japan, a nearly foreign power.
+--- 21907281
+>>21907274
+>>21903104
+shut the fuck up you fucking surface level reader garbage faggot
+--- 21907512
+What is the best edition/translation of Spengler?
+--- 21907539
+>>21902612 (OP)
+It took him like the whole show to figure out walter white was heisenberg then he died instantly.
+--- 21907950
+>>21907539
+I thought it was poetic. He speaks against nazis in Decline of the West and can see the future, but he can't see through Walter and ends up dying to nazis.
+--- 21908306
+>>21903734
+>paglia
+oh no no no hchhchaahhahahaha
+--- 21908369
+>>21902717
+>I am very smart
+Now try again without vomiting Russian propaganda points about "muh niggers and trannies".
+--- 21908390
+>>21903140
+Toynbee, Huntington, Wittgenstein, Kissinger, Borkenau, etc
+--- 21908442
+>>21905852
+The dark knight. It’s edited though
+--- 21909190
+>>21908369
+subpar bait
+--- 21909198
+>>21903109
+On one hand, they were right. On the other hand, had the Germans succeeded in exiling liberalism and communism from continental Europe and East Asia, modernity may never have recovered.
+--- 21909477
+>>21907512
+The Arktos editions are good
+--- 21909659
+>>21902625
+He was in no way a moderate conservative.
+--- 21909675
+>>21903734
+Info about Kazantzakis? He’s one of my favourite writers
+--- 21909700
+>>21907258
+>There were conservatives in law, but not anymore
+wtf are you talking about the supreme court just overturned Roe and it took like 50 years. so much for "used to"
+--- 21909717
+>>21909700
+>used to
+*were
+--- 21909718
+>>21909700
+Do you really think it was easy to find those justices, who are in their 50s, 3 decades older than the typical law student by the way?
+--- 21909735
+>>21909718
+so why didn't it happen earlier, when you say law was more conservative?
+--- 21909744
+>>21909735
+Was a kind of lucky coincidence because Trump somehow won and then there were a bunch of SC openings.
+--- 21909756
+>>21909718
+>3 decades older than the typical law student by the way?
+the supreme court isnt an entry level position, retard
+--- 21909759
+>>21909756
+Right, so if you think that is then norm for the rest of the field of law, you are mistaken.
+--- 21909818
+>>21909759
+Nobody said that. Regardless, there are tens of thousands of people in the Federalist Society alone.
+https://fedsoc.org/about-us
+--- 21910112
+>>21902717
+How can one man can write so beautifully and with such inspiration (not to mention the inspiration which can be extracted from this piece of writing!) and yet be so foolish as to use this gift to suffocate others with the stink of his wretched soul?
+--- 21910364
+>>21908369
+>IT'S THE RUSSIANS!
+How is it having an antenna for CNN in place of a brain?
+--- 21910394
+>>21905739
+Thanks for mentioning this. Reading this section now and really enjoying it.
+--- 21910428
+>>21902612 (OP)
+sex gifs
+--- 21910442
+>>21909718
+Judicial activism was worse in the last century, and most of those conservative judges were educated in those days.
+--- 21910449
+>>21902717
+By far the most based post on this board right now
+--- 21910469
+>>21902612 (OP)
+He was a hack fraud who was wrong about almost everything.
+--- 21910682
+>>21907512
+>>21909477
+they're the only acceptable ones still in print
+--- 21911060
+>>21910112
+This projection is funny
+--- 21911066
+>>21910590
+Why do philosophers always need Jesus
+--- 21911080
+>>21910442
+But that’s not the topic. The topic was whether one ideological tendency has a monopoly on the field today, and it does. That there was less of a monopoly but more activism in the past is irrelevant.
+--- 21911086
+>>21909818
+You did. That’s exactly what you were arguing, that law isn’t an almost exclusively liberal-progressive field. It is. The Federalist Society means nothing. It’s merely a refuge for people who don’t subscribe to the dogma 100%. Virtually all lawyers are liberals in some sense by default. Most of them are progressives. More so now because of the stranglehold the colleges have on the profession. If you even think about conceptually what law is you realize it accepts liberal principles by default. Even Spengler mentions this in the second volume of Decline of the West. He dedicates an entire chapter to the legal profession.
+--- 21911142
+>>21910590
+>They are indignant when a murderer is executed for a crime of passion, but they feel a secret pleasure in hearing of the murder of a political opponent.
+
+This sentence does encapsulate all modern politics in the West. God I hate redditors.
+--- 21911296
+>>21909675
+There are many papers on him being influenced by Splengler, if you Google (most of them in English). I'm not familiar with Kazantakis' works, only his life, so I can't tell you much.
+--- 21911301
+>>21902612 (OP)
+>What a revelation it was for the mass of people who were unfamiliar with actual thinking and its rich history when two decades ago, in 1917, Oswald Spengler announced that he was the first to discover that every age and every civilization has its own world view! Yet it was all nothing more than a very deft and clever popularization of thoughts and questions on which others long before him had ruminated far more profoundly. Nietzsche was the most recent of these. Yet no one by any means mastered these thoughts and questions, and they remain unmastered up to the present hour. The reason is as simple as it is momentous and difficult to think through.
+--- 21911322
+>>21902717
+--- 21912337
+>>21902717
+Screencaping this post for future generation
+--- 21912388
+>>21902717
+I still believe in progress in a sense of transhumanism, but otherwise I guess this is put well enough.
+--- 21912482
+>>21902633
+I know you believe you are very smart but just by saying this in context of this thread actually small people know you are full of shit please log off
+--- 21912644
+Spengler's philosophy is a pompous and outdated attempt to impose a rigid and arbitrary framework on the diversity and complexity of human history. It's a reactionary, ideologically driven worldview that argues civilizations degenerate when materialism, rationalism, imperialism, and democracy dominate. It frames itself as an objective mode of analysis but is clearly ideologically biased towards illiberalism and ignores anything that challenges his ideological preconceptions. He overlooks the diversity and dynamism within each culture, as well as the continuity and change across cultures. He arbitrarily divides history into neat periods and stages that do not correspond to reality, cherry picking examples and evidence to fit his preconceived notions. He confuses his own subjective impressions and preferences with objective facts and values.
+
+It merely is a reflection of his own pessimism and nostalgia for a mythical past. He advocates for a return to authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism, and mysticism as a solution to the problems of liberalism. He is a cultural elitist who looks down on other cultures as inferior or decadent, and a determinist who denies human agency and possibility. It is a waste of time and energy for anyone who wants to learn something useful or meaningful about how history or culture actually develop.
+--- 21912657
+>>21912644
+extremely homosexual post
+--- 21912673
+>>21912644
+Inaccurate. Spengler clearly lays out the principles and mechanisms of his theory and provides examples to support it. It's not an ideological view but an objective analysis of how societies and cultures organically develop.
+--- 21912679
+>>21912644
+The only thing he got wrong was overstating the organic metaphor and saying that decline is inevitable. As Quigley says:
+
+When we come to apply this process, even in this rather vague form, to our own 
+civilization, Western Civilization, we can see that certain modifications are needed. Like 
+other civilizations, our civilization began with a period of mixture of cultural elements 
+from other societies, formed these elements into a culture distinctly its own, began to 
+expand with growing rapidity as others had done, and passed from this period of 
+expansion into a period of crisis. But at that point the pattern changed. 
+
+In more than a dozen other civilizations the Age of Expansion was followed by an 
+Age of Crisis, and this, in turn, by a period of Universal Empire in which a single 
+political unit ruled the whole extent of the civilization. Western Civilization, on the 
+contrary, did not pass from the Age of Crisis to the Age of Universal Empire, but instead 
+was able to reform itself and entered upon a new period of expansion. Moreover, Western 
+Civilization did this not once, but several times. It was this ability to reform or reorganize 
+itself again and again which made Western Civilization the dominant factor in the world 
+at the beginning of the twentieth century. 
+
+...
+
+By 1930 it was clear that Western Civilization was again in an Age of Conflict; by 
+1942 a semi -peripheral state, Germany, had conquered much of the core of the 
+civilization. That effort was defeated by calling into the fray a peripheral state (the United 
+States) and another, outside civilization (the Soviet society). It is not yet clear whether 
+Western Civilization will continue along the path marked by so many earlier 
+civilizations, or whether it will be able to reorganize itself sufficiently to enter upon a 
+new, fourth, Age of Expansion. If the former occurs, this Age of Conflict will 
+undoubtedly continue with the fourfold characteristics of class struggle, war, irrationality, 
+and declining progress. In this case, we shall undoubtedly get a Universal Empire in 
+which the United States will rule most of Western Civilization. This will be followed, as 
+in other civilizations, by a period of decay and ultimately, as the civilization grows 
+weaker, by invasions and the total destruction of Western culture. On the other hand, if 
+Western Civilization is able to reorganize itself and enters upon a fourth Age of 
+Expansion, the ability of Western Civilization to survive and go on to increasing 
+prosperity and power will be bright. 
+
+(Note that the historian of civilizations Quigley basically agrees with, appropriates, and modifies Spengler's own framework, showing the power of the framework and its long term influence)
+--- 21912686
+>>21912644
+You've never read him have you?
+--- 21912700
+>>21912673
+It's not objective, it's clearly ideologically biased.
+--- 21912702
+>>21912686
+He's heard him summarized in a video essay! That's just as good, chud!
+--- 21912711
+>>21912644
+This better be elaborate bait but i dont care. If you really think Spengler was a reactionary or even a conservative, then you fundamentally dont understand him. His entire philosophy hinges on the fact that reaction is impossible and conservatism is futile. He very openly says in the introduction to Decline that it's completely pointless now to focus on arts and philosophy and that only science and technology still have uncharted territory that can be explored.
+--- 21912762
+>>21912711
+>>21912644
+wtf he's just like me
+--- 21912782
+>>21902717
+totally overrated post
+lit is pathetic
+--- 21912800
+>>21902717
+Underrated post
+--- 21912835
+>>21912644
+filtered. hard.
+--- 21912838
+>>21902616
+How so? Care to explain? Or you are just here to sully?
+--- 21912872
+>>21912679
+It doesn’t make any sense to say at the time of his writing that Western Civilization didn’t enter a stage of crisis because Spengler bookmarked the beginning of the stage of crisis at 2000 AD. I also think it’s highly debatable if you could say that it reformed itself and entered into a new period of expansion. The 20th century was as Spengler called it a period of contending states and the phenomena of Nazism and Fascism, merely idealistic and romantic precursors to the sort of pragmatic Caesarism that ushers in the Universal Empire and is inevitable only in the 21st century
+--- 21912876
+>>21911301
+Ironic coming from a guy who stole all of his ideas from his friends.
+--- 21912880
+>>21912644
+lol go back to your cultural studies class
+--- 21912881
+>>21912711
+He called Caesar a conservative leader many times.
+--- 21912928
+Spengler is enlighening in the sense that he predicted ww2 and cold war politics by being a propagandist for western imperialism (i.e. he was germcuck with British cum in his brain like Nietzsche). For example a large part of his political work such as prussian socialism mentains the lebensraum ideology and expansion east that was central to both ww1 and ww2 German imperialist ideology because Germany did not have colonies. 
+
+Another enlightening aspect is that Spengler predicted a "colored relolution" with Soviet russia leading it, that is giving the "coloreds" the technology to fight the coloniser westerners. That is his central thesis that he wants to avoid in both central europe and the colonies, the colonized against the colonisers. Fast forward 50 years and Kissinger writes his dissertation on Spengler and re-iterates the same point with regards to anti-Soviet containment. That what the 3rd reich was in the end, a berserker state funded by wallstreet to end revolutionary socialism, and thats what NATO, the World Bank and the IMF are today, instruments of containment and vassalization of the 3rd world working in an unhinged way since they have no Soviet Union to oppose them globaly.
+--- 21912974
+>>21912928
+
+Also I forgot to mention another crucial aspect on why Spengler was a reactionary darling for the Nazis. Spengler reformulated along with Sorel, but in more "mythicists" terms (that is completely ahistorical) the notion of "organic evolution of statehood and the "organic state". Fascism has as its central state that both capital, labor and the "enlightned" leaders of said state form a united organic whole like a human body. Another central tenet and characteristic of fascism is the notion of "charismatic leaders" (as also outlined by Max Weber) . In Spengler this notion is conviently taken under the guise of Caesar and Caesarism. 
+
+Now one might ask himself how the fuck did does one person run a whole society or even becomes the face of one whole society or culture , even if it "declining". The simple answer is he doesn't , like Arendt says these charismatic fascist leaders run their countries to the ground or even in pre-modern societies get assasinated like with Caesar. Thus even his Caesarian solution for modern times proved disastrous because like with western history it focused on organic or pseudo-historical elements like "spirit", "symbols" and other new agey shit that were vogue at the time. 
+
+The only way to truly understand history is through contradiction, that is what Hegel did and that is what Marx did . All else run through cul de sacs because they can't see contradiction within their own historical horizon and thus can be accounted as bourgeois intellectuals that can't stop huffing the superiority of their own time, or how good the old times were. Spengler takes this schema and merely makes it cyclical (repetition of the same and thus anti-materialist). That is in essence, ideological.
+--- 21912993
+>>21912881
+
+Caesar was anything but conervative he was with the "populares" because the conservative optimates patricians had stifled the proletarian plebians with debt and the latifundia plantation system. Caesar on the other hand promissed debt forgiveness and openly gave his property after his death to the Roman people. Thats why people were willing to die for Caesar and made him into a god, not just because of his laurels.
+--- 21913235
+bump
+--- 21913387
+>>21902612 (OP)
+Is it possible to be a materialist and a fan of Spenglerian thought? I have only a surface level understanding of his philosophy, which appears to be very idealist in the sense that each high culture has a worldview and perspective, which is unique to its own. I just do not agree with the whole concept of ‘prime symbols’, in terms of how it is presented as metaphysical. I am definitely going to read ‘Decline Of The West” at some point, though.
+--- 21913392
+>>21913387
+You should read Adorno's essay on him in Prisms
+--- 21913401
+>>21913387
+You should read the anthology of Benjamin Whorf's essays with the teal/blue cover, Language something. His idea of different languages mirroring entirely different kinds of thought is interestingly similar
+--- 21913430
+>>21902717
+BAP, is that you? You need to get off twitter my negro, that shit has consumed you.
+>>21905852
+Ah, the rare Serbian /lit/ poster.
+--- 21913443
+>>21902618
+If you apply his formula to China, then around 200BC should have been in a slump, but this was a period of immense cultural growth
+--- 21913455
+>>21912993
+I don’t think the things you mentioned necessarily makes him not a conservative but I agree that he wasn’t a conservative. Still, Spengler called him conservative. He said the Caesars are all conservative leaders.
+--- 21913460
+Would a synthesis of Marx with Spengler be possible?
+--- 21913464
+>>21913460
+>Would a synthesis of Marx with Spengler be possible?
+Absolutely not. In a lot of ways Spengler is the anti-Marx.
+--- 21913475
+>>21913460
+No. Marx is too materialist.
+--- 21913478
+>>21912974
+>Spengler takes this schema and merely makes it cyclical
+History is cyclical brainlet.
+You'll get your commie utopia when the apparatchik lines you up in front of a wall and puts a bullet in the back of your head you retarded, subhuman, piece of shit.
+--- 21913484
+>>21912644
+>Spengler's philosophy is a pompous and outdated attempt to impose a rigid and arbitrary framework on the diversity and complexity of human history
+>diversity and complexity
+lol
+lmao even
+--- 21913494
+>>21903610
+>The decline narrative is played out and mostly false (not to say we are always in an upward trajectory, just that history fluctuates and is generally difficult to pin down in grandiose terms)
+--- 21913527
+>>21913460
+He attacked Marx in one of his essays but he also said positive things about Lenin.
+--- 21913550
+>>21913478
+
+I'm in my room , and repling to you in this Vietnamese cartoon forum. This has never happened before. Do you understand the difference beatween contigency and agency in history?
+--- 21913555
+>>21913478
+Spengler rejects cyclical history. There is never a return.
+--- 21913559
+>>21913430
+I'm not from Serbia. But I love his art.
+--- 21913582
+>>21913555
+For the civilization that came and passed, no.
+But human history is a history of the rise and fall of civilizations, and is therefor cyclical. 
+Each might have its own symbols, but the symbols are ultimately irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is the cycle.
+>>21913550
+>agency in history?
+It doesn't exist.
+--- 21913608
+>>21913582
+>Human history is a history of the rise and fall of civilizations
+Spengler disagred.
+--- 21914287
+>>21914285
+jesus christ shut the fuck up
+--- 21914306
+>>21914285
+Your comment alone proves his point of the West declining.
+--- 21914310
+anons,
+what are your favorite spengler quotes?
+--- 21914944
+>>21902717
+Blessed post, Nietzscheans BTFO
+--- 21915001
+>>21913582
+
+>It doesn't exist.
+
+Then shut the fuck up, whats the point of replying to me then? Why do anything lmao.
+--- 21915348
+https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1681474866439717.webm
+--- 21916559
+>>21912644
+Spongebobler btfo by chatgpt frfr ong
+--- 21916581
+>>21915348
+https://files.catbox.moe/rdul8i.webm
+--- 21916681
+>>21902612 (OP)
+I was wondering if it is possible to view some of Spengler’s more fictional and artistic works? Does anyone here know where I might find them? Thanks.
+>At age 15, Spengler filled whole booklets with visions and detailed sketches of two fictitious empires, down to administrative procedures and economic statistics. At 17, he wrote a stage play about Moctezuma, probing the encounter of two alien cultures.
+https://www.oswaldspenglersociety.com/oswald-spengler
+--- 21916686
+>>21916681
+what the fuck, how come i never knew about that?
+Didnt a lot of his library burn down in a fire?
+--- 21916694
+His deterministic view of history has the stench of Marx about it. At least he understands that the history of the Classical and Occidental civilizations are more tragic than glorious, but we still live in a cosmos where anything is possible.
+--- 21916724
+>>21916686
+>Didn’t a lot of his library burn down in a fire?
+Idk. I just found this information out a few days ago. Funny, considering I was thinking about writing my own account of a fictional empire. I am definitely interested in Spengler’s fictional civilisations. Sounds fun to read.
+--- 21916841
+>>21902717
+>western man so oppressed
+so this is what autism looks like
+--- 21918221
+Name one historian who takes Spengler seriously today.
+--- 21918228
+Name one historian anyone should take seriously today.
+--- 21918249
+>>21902612 (OP)
+I just looked him up. Seems a little more respectable than Nostradamus. Also, just confirms my theory that if you're aware of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" you're empowered to sound smarter than 90% of self-proclaimed "intellectuals" in the humanities. Slavoj Zizek can sound smarter than a submental like Peterson, sure, but he's still a "Hegelian" with some insane "theory of history".
+--- 21918256
+>>21918228
+Chris Wickham is a good historian.
+--- 21918329
+If Spengler was right, it makes me sad to to think of what a non-modern or non-technological Western civilization could have been. To have seen knights march like Roman tribunes, American senators write chivalric poems, and cities of gothic and baroque architecture in stone would’ve been incredible. Instead, we got drone strikes, lawyer-senators, and six lane highways.
+--- 21918361
+>>21918228
+Not a historian but Kissinger was a fan of Spengler. He disagreed with his pessimism but Kissinger is also the kind of man who thinks the devil has his best interest at heart.
+--- 21918721
+>>21918329
+But imagine having no modern hygiene that would suck and that is the single reason why I'll take present conditions over anything good of past
+--- 21918749
+>>21912928
+nietzsche made it clear he thought brits were subhumans, retard-o
+>exposes himself as a marxtranny in the next post
+figures
+--- 21918962
+>>21918749
+
+Nietzsche 's political writtings are pro-British empire and pro-colonialism. His "leveling" of europe is essentially the British empire model. The only group that opposed european colonialism at the time, were the far-left socialists which both Nietzsche attacks repeatedly as well as Spengler in both man and technics and Prussian Socialism. 
+
+Also come up with better arguments.
+--- 21920026
+wow so profound i love spengler
+--- 21920028
+>>21920026
+bait
+--- 21920046
+>>21920028
+this is literally what every single spenglerdrone believes
+--- 21920279
+>>21905730
+Cioran
+Baudrillard
+Toynbee
+Yockey
+--- 21920303
+>>21918329
+>non-modern or non-technological Western civilization
+would have been steamrolled by the first people to adopt technology.
+The impact of technology on society and culture is always understated even today. Things are the way they are today because of telecommunications technology. It's natural that Spengler was wrong as he couldn't have seen it coming. We still don't quite know what's coming.
+--- 21920492
+>>21902612 (OP)
+How about, he’s an incel philosopher? There’s no place for rhetoric that fuels hatred in the 21st century.
+--- 21920728
+>>21918962
+kill yourself you fucking surface-reader marxtranny retard and actually read nietszche and not some 'gotcha' materialist commentary by chatgpt or some other aids-ridden marctranny. he almost equates anglodytes with negroes on a spiritual/religious/moral level.
+--- 21920946
+>>21910590
+>mwf this is what "alt"-righters and cuckservatives unironically deem "deep" philosophy
+>"Man is a beast of prey"
+Not even the ancestors of mankind were beasts of prey. But for some mysterious reasons, human are. Sure, seems legit.
+>"They shout. "No more war" - but they desire class war."
+No you fucking retard, they (the small fraction of people who should somehow prove his thesis) desire class STRUGGLE which is a completely different thing.
+>"What objection have they ever raised to the Bolshevist slaughters?"
+A shitload of them? Is this moron really that ignorant or he just hopes his audience are?
+--- 21920964
+>>21902618
+he's not wrong, it's just taking a bit longer than originally anticipated.
+--- 21921045
+>>21920946
+>Not even the ancestors of mankind were beasts of prey. But for some mysterious reasons, human are. Sure, seems legit.
+yeah we are. Wherever humans went, mass extinction of megafauna followed. Why? Because we preyed on them.
+--- 21921127
+>>21920946
+Hey dumbarse, it was written in 1931.

lit/21906095.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,529 @@
+-----
+--- 21906095
+How tf does he do it? This is the best writing I have ever read. Nothing even comes close. It's beautiful. I almost got hard reading it.
+--- 21906108
+If this thread is still up tomorrow I’ll rant, but the tldr is he took Emerson’s style, fused it with the Quaker style of preaching, and fused this with a lot of study of biblical poetics, and is applying this for sentimentality and the relation of the self in a very modern setting, while I dislike the content, I can’t argue that it’s a formidable combination.
+--- 21906112
+>>21906108
+He clearly read the Bible. Why wasn't he touched by The Holy Spirit?
+--- 21906399
+>>21906095 (OP)
+It's beautiful on the surface but it is devoid of content.
+--- 21907746
+Many apologies OP for the drelay, but due to sleep and work I’ve not had an opportunity to explain at some length the techniques of Whitman, I’m going to be using three examples to show the range and aspects of his verse, first starting small.
+
+First the short poem “a glimpse” 
+
+A glimpse through an interstice caught, 
+Of a crowd of workmen and drivers in a bar-room around the stove late of a winter night, and I unremark’d seated in a corner, 
+Of a youth who loves me and whom I love, silently approaching and seating himself near, that he may hold me by the hand, 
+A long while amid the noises of coming and going, of drinking and oath and smutty jest, 
+There we two, content, happy in being together, speaking little, perhaps not a word. 
+
+Before full on analysis, I’m going to scan the first two lines to show you that Whitman while writing free verse, is not ignorant of meter and is using the law and techniques of meter, I’ll elaborate more later.
+
+First line
+
+“A glimpse through an interstice caught,” 
+
+If one actually scans the line we find 
+
+“A GLIMPSE/ THROUGH an/ in-TER/stice CAUGHT”
+
+to the untrained this may seem like an irregular line, but this rhythm is perfectly acceptable within a normal iambic tetrameter, it’s just using a widely acceptable trochee substitution on the second foot, this is why the fourth and fifth syllable are intentionally unstressed. This is why his music at once feels free flowing but still melodic, he’s still employing the logic of meter.
+
+Now the second line
+
+“Of a crowd of workmen and drivers in a bar-room ”
+
+Which when scanned is 
+
+“of a CROWD/ of WORK/men and DRIVE/ ers IN/ a bar-ROOM”
+
+Two elements you’ll see commonly in Whitman’s verse is openings with either a strong repetitive dactyl (+ - - ) or a strong repetitive anapest(- - +) the pattern in the above being anapest, iamb, anapest, iamb, anapest, this again while seemingly not metrical is again an allowable in normative verse already popular in the period, we see Tennyson, browning and Swinburne all employ this conception of balanced feet no matter the type still being rhythmically allowable, it is no shock then that Swinburne renown for his extreme care for formal poetics, actually reviewed with much praise the work of Whitman, it is because he recognized the same style of manipulation still being employed, but to the main point of analysis of this short poem.
+
+The poems aesthetic is excessively personal, dripping with sentimentality, he is at once an extreme ego(which people love in actuality ) and an extreme dissolution into the scenery, one of the biggest motifs and core of Whitman’s poetics is, and no humor to this, masturbation, by this I mean to say, he speaks constantly of the romantic/sexual relation of the parts of self, the identity, the ego, the sense of self in the world and this sense of other, at once even in this short poem whitman projects you both into his sense
+
+Cont
+--- 21907821
+>>21907746
+ of the world and his own ego blending, this is very easy since usually the material of his verse is the American, the mundane available, even in his most extreme roots in the mundane. This is the basic aesthetic unit of Whitman. The next element to consider is his fixation with movement.
+
+Let’s see the next poem
+
+“
+SKIRTING the river road, (my forenoon walk, my rest,)
+Skyward in air a sudden muffled sound, the dalliance of the eagles,
+The rushing amorous contact high in space together,
+The clinching interlocking claws, a living, fierce, gyrating wheel,
+Four beating wings, two beaks, a swirling mass tight grappling,
+In tumbling turning clustering loops, straight downward falling,
+Till o'er the river pois'd, the twain yet one, a moment's lull,
+A motionless still balance in the air, then parting, talons loosing,
+Upward again on slow-firm pinions slanting, their separate diverse 
+flight,
+She hers, he his, pursuing.”
+
+While the following two elements are present in much of his verse they’re made very clear here, extreme usage of verbs and images of constant movement and speed, flowing rivers “tumbling turning clustering loops, straight downward falling,”
+
+This ever animated ever vital ever going/becoming element to Whitman’s aesthetics is what makes it feel alive, this care for movement is, i think, why his short poem on Hegel is actually one of the most perfectly short summarizations of one of Hegel’s core most elements. 
+
+(ROAMING IN THOUGHT.
+(After reading HEGEL.)
+
+Roaming in thought over the Universe, I saw the little that is 
+Good steadily hastening towards immortality,
+And the vast all that is call'd Evil I saw hastening to merge itself 
+and become lost and dead. 
+
+But this gets into Whitman’s mysticism of which gershom Scholem says constitutes a uniquely American full kabbalistic system, but that’s a topic for another time.)
+
+This high concentration on animated/vital writing is the second aspect, next post will begin on the third poem of our brief analysis.
+--- 21907948
+>>21907821
+This portion from out of the cradle endlessly rocking (which explains the origin of his poetic inspiration ) will explain the third and most essential element to Whitman’s poetics.
+
+“Out of the cradle endlessly rocking,
+Out of the mocking-bird’s throat, the musical shuttle,
+Out of the Ninth-month midnight,
+Over the sterile sands and the fields beyond, where the child leaving his bed wander’d alone, bareheaded, barefoot,
+Down from the shower’d halo,
+Up from the mystic play of shadows twining and twisting as if they were alive,
+Out from the patches of briers and blackberries,
+From the memories of the bird that chanted to me,
+From your memories sad brother, from the fitful risings and fallings I heard,
+From under that yellow half-moon late-risen and swollen as if with tears,
+From those beginning notes of yearning and love there in the mist,
+From the thousand responses of my heart never to cease,”
+
+As before you see the prior principles being used in full swing, the high verb/animate style on full display, the loose but still pseudo metrical mode deliberating using strong dactyls and then anapests to open it. But the key additional element is notice his repetition (which is modeled off of biblical repetition and parallelism.) 
+
+ By the repeating Of “out of the “ he’s creating a sort of stable drum beat to pulse throughout the line, this is then played with by the “over” and repeated with “from the” 
+
+The reason this adds so much musicality is widely known. 
+
+https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech-to-song_illusion
+
+By the simple act of repetitive elements even unworked prose gains an incantatory property, the further advantage of repetition and parallelism is that these “conceptually rhyme” they conceptually are always aesthetically pleasing no matter the language as long as the concepts parallel in a pretty, here an extreme example from the Bible. 
+
+Cont
+--- 21907954
+>>21907948
+Psalm 148 
+
+1 Praise the Lord.[a]
+Praise the Lord from the heavens;
+ praise him in the heights above.
+2 Praise him, all his angels;
+ praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
+3 Praise him, sun and moon;
+ praise him, all you shining stars.
+4 Praise him, you highest heavens
+ and you waters above the skies.
+5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
+ for at his command they were created,
+6 and he established them for ever and ever—
+ he issued a decree that will never pass away.
+7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
+ you great sea creatures and all ocean depths,
+8 lightning and hail, snow and clouds,
+ stormy winds that do his bidding,
+9 you mountains and all hills,
+ fruit trees and all cedars,
+10 wild animals and all cattle,
+ small creatures and flying birds,
+11 kings of the earth and all nations,
+ you princes and all rulers on earth,
+12 young men and women,
+ old men and children.
+13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
+ for his name alone is exalted;
+ his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.
+14 And he has raised up for his people a horn,[b]
+ the praise of all his faithful servants,
+ of Israel, the people close to his heart.
+Praise the Lord.
+This continuous repetition of praise with the ideas relating but slightly changing continuously, this is the core rhetorical mechanism of Hebrew poetics and the core element that’s making Whitman’s poetry stand out, strip all of the above factors from Whitman and you’re left with really nothing, these are the core portions of Whitman.
+--- 21908371
+>>21906112
+As for this, reading, even praying and attending church, these are not enough to truly know God, what it takes to know god is to submit in your heart, in your spirit, this isn’t a complicated process it isn’t hard to do mechanically, but it takes a moment of metanoia, stepping out of yourself and repenting, and then, asking to know God, think of the thief next to Christ, he admitted he belonged on the cross then asked Christ to save him. It is not about hard study, it’s not about good service or even evangelism, 
+
+Psalm 51:17
+
+The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.
+
+If you do not offer this to god, it doesn’t matter if you read the Bible a thousand times and go to church and serve the community from birth to death, if you do not repent and offer your life, your broken heart to God, then you do not know God.
+--- 21908879
+I loved with my uncle and his wife from around the ages of 13-19 with him as my legal guardian. I love my uncle, he's truly an awesome dude and just all around good guy. His wife however always had something against me and treated me terribly for no discernable reason starting when I was just a little kid. Kind of like an evil step mother, you know? She basically lived her life either in the couch or out shoping, and after years and years of her resisting the pressure my uncle put on her to get a job she decided to go to a community college instead as a way to weasel out of having to contribute anything. Fuck her. Although she hated me she knew I read a lot and I had a reputation within my family for being smart so when she was assigned to read Leaves of Grass and write a paper on it she asked me if I've read it and if I could help her. I said 'of course, I love Leaves of Grass!' (I had actually never read it) So she asks me to write the paper for her and I agree. I didn't read the book and also didn't write her paper for her, which she was unaware of until the.morning of the day it was due. I believe that was the only instance in my life of me deciding to get revenge on someone and following through with it. It.May have been a shitty thing to do. But here we are 20 years later and still, fuck her.
+--- 21909552
+Bump
+--- 21909912
+>>21907746
+I will give all this a read in a few when I wake up. Are you some kind of academic or something? Who actually read Hegel anyway?
+--- 21909986
+>>21909912
+ >academic or something? Who actually read Hegel anyway?
+
+Nah not an academic, I’m just an obsessive when it comes to theology, esotericism, philosophy and poetry/poetics
+--- 21910020
+>>21909986
+Oh cool. Whitman is the first poet I've read that's resonated, not that I've made much of an effort before with others. I feel like I am understanding the essence of his poems, although I'm pretty clueless when it comes to techniques and so on.
+--- 21910029
+>>21910020
+Take your time with him, hear him recited, after you’re done with Whitman you can either trace who he influenced or who influenced him. If you want who he influenced it’s good to go directly to Wallace stevens imo, if you want the dudes he’s basing on, check out Emerson and transcendentalism in general, gradually working your way back to romanticism. No rush of course anon, hope ya continue the reading!
+--- 21910042
+>>21906095 (OP)
+I wasn't aware that Gandalf had written any novels. OP. That's pretty cool
+--- 21910043
+>>21910029
+ahh, it feels good to know I have so much to more to read.
+--- 21910378
+I'm still reading the same poem I was reading yesterday (Song of Myself), and am continually blown away by almost every line. I can hardly believe how good this is. It eclipses literature.
+--- 21911882
+>>21906095 (OP)
+Whitman sucks
+--- 21913377
+>>21907954
+>the core element that's making Whitman's poetry stand out, strip all of the above factors from Whitman and you're left with really nothing
+I don't agree with this really. I think the opening portion of "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking" is better described in terms of Italian opera than Biblical poetics, though its influence on Whitman's verse is undeniable. Whitman's love for Italian opera was no secret, and the first section presents a sort of overture that introduces the scene and actors, weaving together the themes—musical, linguistic, and ideational—but without directly involving us in the narrative. You can see this especially clearly at the end of the portion:
+
+"I, chanter of pains and joys, uniter of here and hereafter,
+Taking all hints to use them, but swiftly leaping beyond
+ them,
+A reminiscence sing."
+
+The main verb, sing, is suppressed until the very last word, which is an eccentric use of syntax that you cannot trace back or reduce to "Hebrew poetics". We are withheld from the main action and the significant details of the poem. I of course welcome the Biblical analogy, but you seem to have ideological reasons for reducing Whitman's verse like this. He is one of the roughs, a kosmos. There are many aspects of his poetry you have to ignore in order to make the comment that all he did was take "Emerson's style, fused it with the Quaker style of preaching, and fused this with a lot of study of biblical poetics". I have more to say about this actually, but I have to submit a 1600 word paper in five hours, so I'll come back in a while hopefully before this thread dies.
+--- 21913384
+>>21906095 (OP)
+It is all the semen he consumed. Guenon knew the secret...
+--- 21913406
+>>21908371
+What about people who would like to believe, and think it would all be wonderful if it were true, but have trouble convincing themselves deep down that it is true?
+--- 21913431
+>>21906112
+He was. If by "Holy Spirit" you mean anything other than the inspiration behind the free creative life of the artist, you are probably a sectarian freak fit for the gallows.
+--- 21914007
+>>21913377
+> eccentric use of syntax that you cannot trace back or reduce to "Hebrew poetics"
+
+You absolutely can especially the book of Isaiah. We see similar play with syntax in Virgil to the point many assumed Virgil just read Isaiah and was intentionally pastiching him. we also see a lot of play with expectation in the same way in Ovid and Cicero’s prose. In your standard KJV you’d absolutely find what amounts to experimentation with syntax order. While it isn’t the exact same syntax, the inspiration is absolutely there. Especially with the quick burst of contrasts.
+
+And let’s be realistic, it’s not an overture, it’s repetition, it’s good but it’s not something he invented. I don’t deny there’s Italian operatic influence, but if we look at the meat of his technique, the cores of his aesthetics, it is precisely the formula of Quaker+transcendentalism+Americanism+biblical poetics+Ego
+
+And I don’t think it’s reductive, I believe it’s just realistic, he himself called Emerson his master.
+--- 21914015
+>>21913406
+I would say such a person needs to pray and ask for his forgiveness, to ask for the experience of metanoia. If there’s no actual experience of metanoia, no actual repentance, then you don’t know God personally, you’re just into the aesthetics ultimately.
+--- 21914031
+He's an overrated faggot.
+--- 21914146
+>>21906095 (OP)
+>Walt Whitman 
+Walter White
+--- 21914194
+>>21914007
+>it's not an overture, it's repetition
+But the opening portion we're referring to is disorienting and unclear in its imagery, so it's not just "repetition". The poet showcases his imagery in a very swift manner, without explanation or any real sense of verbal logic. The reader experiences the bird, the child, the moon, the song, without any understanding of how these images connect (or ultimately will relate) to one another. Image after image is presented in a very loosely organized way. The reader is not able to understand these things until he finishes the poem, which exactly fits the definition of an overture. In operatic overtures, especially of the nineteenth century Italian variety, the melodic material forms a kind of potpourri of the upcoming opera's best "tunes". The audience is given both the flavor of the work and a miniature, suggestive pre-enactment of the drama which is about to begin. This is exactly the case with Whitman's introduction.
+
+And what you refer to as the biblical repetition aspect of the poem is really just the minimal syntactic cohesion that Whitman uses to reinforce his symbolic themes by providing a long series of directional prepositions ("Out ... Out ...Out ... Over ... Down ... Up ... Out ... From .... ") which prevents the reader from physically visualizing his words, and makes them rather hear it musically. That's why I said it's better to think of it in terms of Italian opera rather than just the Bible, because you cannot really source these things to Hebrew poetics.
+--- 21914289
+>>21914194
+>But the opening portion we're referring to is disorienting and unclear in its imagery, so it's not just "repetition". 
+
+the content wouldn’t change the technical/rhetorical tool being utilized, it’s still repetition and parallelism.
+
+>The poet showcases his imagery in a very swift manner, without explanation or any real sense of verbal logic.
+
+That swiftness is on account of the aforementioned vital speed ideal he holds, And of course there’s a “verbal logic” he’s just tracing what when and where he received the song from the bird.
+
+
+>The reader experiences the bird, the child, the moon, the song, without any understanding of how these images connect (or ultimately will relate) to one another. 
+
+It’s not that fragmentary as you’re pretending it is anon, it’ll be a bit obscure on the first few lines, but it’ll snap into place if you’re actually paying attention. 
+
+Is it really that fragmentary when we compare examples from Emerson?
+
+
+“The south-wind brings
+Life, sunshine, and desire,
+And on every mount and meadow
+Breathes aromatic fire,
+But over the dead he has no power,
+The lost, the lost he cannot restore,“
+
+
+>Image after image is presented in a very loosely organized way. The reader is not able to understand these things until he finishes the poem, 
+
+Nah by the second and fifth stanza it’s all very clear what’s going on for the rest of it. And honestly all of this speaks for itself in the first stanza 
+
+“ From your memories sad brother, from the fitful risings and fallings I heard,
+From under that yellow half-moon late-risen and swollen as if with tears,
+From those beginning notes of yearning and love there in the mist,
+From the thousand responses of my heart never to cease,
+From the myriad thence-arous’d words,
+From the word stronger and more delicious than any,
+From such as now they start the scene revisiting,
+As a flock, twittering, rising, or overhead passing,
+Borne hither, ere all eludes me, hurriedly,
+A man, yet by these tears a little boy again,
+Throwing myself on the sand, confronting the waves,”
+
+> minimal syntactic cohesion that Whitman uses to reinforce his symbolic themes by providing a long series of directional prepositions 
+
+It’s just parallelism. Same reason he does this 
+
+“
+O darkness! O in vain!
+O I am very sick and sorrowful.
+
+O brown halo in the sky near the moon, drooping upon the sea!
+O troubled reflection in the sea!
+O throat! O throbbing heart!
+And I singing uselessly, uselessly all the night.
+
+O past! O happy life! O songs of joy!” 
+
+Your argument that the repetition and shift is to gain an operatic quality ignores the obvious answer, that Out repeated has an Incantatory aspect, that he wanted to continue and play with this by changing out to over, and abandoning spatial elements in the repetition, continues with “from” 
+
+This poem isn’t special, you’ll find him using repetition for its musicality and for the mental satisfaction of comparisons
+--- 21914299
+There's a piece of old literary crit about whitman I love that says "there are faults in this passage, but they do not matter". For any kind of technical fuckup he may do, the sheer beauty of his work overwhelms any potential flaw
+--- 21914309
+>>21914299
+I agree wholeheartedly
+--- 21914335
+>>21914309
+>>21914299
+Heres the whole thing
+--- 21914336
+>>21907746
+This is wank
+
+Back to my novels I go
+--- 21914361
+>>21914336
+Novelist are failed poets.
+--- 21914480
+>>21914289
+You're in such a hurry to reduce Whitman's technique to repetition and parallelism that you're failing to notice the obvious operatic elements of the introduction and in fact the drama of the poem as a whole. How could the initial scene of the poet's boyhood experiences make perfect sense unless read behind the mature poet's reflection on the importance, hidden meaning, and significance of those experiences? This is such an elementary aspect of the poem's theme that I'm wondering if you may be trolling... this feature is even mentioned in the introduction, where Whitman says:
+
+"I, chanter of pains and joys, uniter of here and hereafter,
+Taking all hints to use them, but swiftly leaping beyond
+them,
+A reminiscence sing."
+
+There's a clear distinction being made here between the mature poet who unites his past with his future and the boy-poet who does not understand the implications of the messages he receives from the bird and the sea. Even the voice of the outsetting bard which the boy grows into is shown to have a very incipient understanding of mortality by the end of the poem, as the mature poet clearly comprehends the depth of this concept in a way he couldn't in his earlier life stages. You cannot possible understand the beginning of the poem without following the development of the voices that follow it.
+--- 21915732
+>>21906095 (OP)
+bump
+--- 21915736
+retroactively stole from Murnane
+--- 21915741
+>>21914361
+Based and Faulkner-pilled
+--- 21915943
+Sucking twink cock gave him power
+--- 21917634
+>>21907746
+how can i learn to read poetry, anon?
+
+I can never seem to follow the rhythm despite being a literal musician.
+
+Am I just special needs?
+--- 21917680
+>>21908371
+What is the most sacrilegious thing I can say to piss you off?
+
+The Holy Spirit is a malevolent entity that has guided mankind towards self-destruction; not a single positive thing has come from the Holy Spirit, an invasive and erosive force.
+--- 21917744
+>>21914361
+Poets are failed novelists
+--- 21917754
+>>21917634
+As a musician you already understand the key desu, it’s study and practice. You don’t just get rhythm, you learn it by dividing syllables into stresses, of which you can find the pattern, and then you can learn tricks like relative stress and substitution by reading traditional poets and scanning them, add to this introductory books on meter like fussell’s poetic meter and form and Hollander’s “rhymes reason” also poe’s book on meter and general rules on composition are very short and successful books in terms of being used as manuals by very successful poets.
+
+There’s a lot of good ways to train. Writing syllabic verse and intentionally ignoring meter, this forces you to develop an ear for rhythm and melody that isn’t based in meter, let’s you play with words like blocks.
+
+Writing a lot of junk in meter, for example posts on 4chan in perfect meter, just remove the line break, this will force you to learn how to write and speak in it 
+
+And of course, just write often always adding more difficulty to the structure, it’s like lifting weights, once you get comfortable with one way, add a little more to build difficulty, this way when you’re serious you don’t have to use all the restrictions, but maintain all of that added control you’ve mastered.
+
+>>21917680
+Literally nothing I’m an occultist, I’ve studied mountains of occult and religious lit from around the world, including Satanism/demonolatry of the hardest strains possible, even down to proper moloch child sacrifice material. There is literally nothing you can say that would be out there to me. if you can’t even shock or bother me with what you can do, how much less does can it really injure God, who is omniscient. Kek.
+--- 21917780
+>>21917754
+>Literally nothing I’m an occultist, I’ve studied mountains of occult and religious lit from around the world, including Satanism/demonolatry of the hardest strains possible, even down to proper moloch child sacrifice material. There is literally nothing you can say that would be out there to me. if you can’t even shock or bother me with what you can do, how much less does can it really injure God, who is omniscient. Kek.
+
+Kek, \lit\ 7 confirmed kills copypasta.
+--- 21917786
+>>21917754
+>even down to proper moloch child sacrifice material
+Is it worse to kill children or to fuck them? Serious question desu
+--- 21917788
+>>21917780
+There’s actually a few decent occultist ones and a Buddhist one already kek.
+--- 21917794
+>>21914361
+And you are a failed man
+--- 21917799
+>>21917788
+Post them and we're brothers
+--- 21917823
+>>21917786
+Ultimately all sins are deserving of death and in my ontology, that means any sin has a negative value of infinity, thus the requirement of the death of Christ. However I have an extended Ethical model based on analysis of being, human nature culture and so forth, and the evilness would in that context depend on the ultimate consequential loss, for to slay the child would be the most immediate evil, but if the rape of the child resulted in their psyche being damaged and their relation to society being harmed which is most often the case, they may go on to rape and kill a multitude of children themselves, thus In that regard the result may be that the evil consequences are actually worse with the rape than the murder. However I should clarify that in the actual moloch cult practice it’s assumed there is a sexual component as well as a ritual sacrifice, whether symbolic or actually performed.
+
+>>21917799
+What was that which you just said about me, my friend? I think you ought to know that I have completed my time as a novice-monk, and I've passed through the Gateless Gate, and I've lived for over 300 cycles of rebirth. I am trained in anapanasati and I'm the most senior bhikkhuni in my local sangha. You are nothing to me but just another human being worthy of dignity and respect. I will have compassion upon you with loving-kindness the likes of which has never been seen before in the Cycle of Samsara - you would do well to remember these words. Do you believe that you can say these things and still escape the principle of dependent origination? Perhaps you should reexamine those beliefs, brother. As we speak I am contemplating the importance of accepting your words with detachment and equanimity, so, without malice, I advise you to prepare for the storm, young one. The storm of suffering that afflicts all living creatures in this world. You are trapped in a cycle of death and rebirth, child. Not only am I extensively trained in the Mahayana Tripitaka, but I have access to the entire Pali canon as well, and I will use its teachings to their full extent to help alleviate the suffering within you which causes you to say hurtful things about others. You could reach Nirvana anywhere, any time, and I can help you achieve enlightenment in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with the study of Koan. If only you could understand what evil karma these words of yours would sow, perhaps you would have had the wisdom to keep silent. Nevertheless, this was beyond what you have been prepared for, and so I promise that I will do my best to ease the suffering that you have brought upon yourself. I will teach you the path of the Bodhisattva and you will revel in it. Your suffering may yet reach its end, child.
+
+cont
+--- 21917829
+>>21917823
+What the fuck did you just say about me, you uninitiated simpleton? I’ll have you know I am the head of my lodge at the OTO, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret rituals in Thelema, and I have over 300 confirmed spells. I am trained in the Book of the Law, and I’m the top degree in the entire Order. You are nothing to me but just another Wiccan. I will wipe you the fuck out with curses the likes of which has never been seen before in this Aeon, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of occultists across the USA and your aura is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, muggle. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your paradigm. You’re fucking dead, chaosfag. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my wand. Not only am I extensively trained in Ceremonialism, but I have access to the entire works of the Golden Dawn and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn Carroll worshipper. I will shit hexes all over you and your chakras will drown in it. You’re fucking banished, chaote.
+
+Cont
+--- 21917835
+>>21917829
+What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you Profane bitch? I’ll have you know I'm the Initiated Gyrecarl of my Quadrigia in the Nameless Companie of the Serpent Cross, and I've been involved in numinous clandestine Esbats of the Synastral Covine and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in the Rites of the Crooked Path and I'm the top Karcist in Blood-Acre entire. You are nothing to me but just another You are nothing to me but just another False Idol for the Iconoclast. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before through the Mysts of Elphame, mark this fucking Wytchtonge. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the internet, think again, Opfer. As we speak I am skrying my secret bloodline of the Mighty Dead across the Eld and your Aetheryic Residuum is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, muggle. The storm of Wytchfyre that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your praxis. You’re fucking dead, Childe. My Shadow Selves can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my Rootwork. Not only am I extensively trained in Wortcrafte, but I have access to the entire manuscript archive of Alogos Dhul'Qarnen Khidir, and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable speculations off the face of the occult publishing market, you little shit. If only you could have known what Draconian retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have nailed your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit Abrosial Poison all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking Exiled, hedgewitch.
+--- 21917852
+>>21906108
+let's over intellectualize a man whose main thesis is "i love life and everything around me"
+--- 21917863
+faggy bullshit
+stop
+--- 21917869
+>>21917852
+Yep and there’s certainly nothing deeper in Whitman’s thought than that, this poem about Whitman is simply just “ life is nice!”
+
+CHANTING THE SQUARE DEIFIC.
+—————
+
+1
+
+CHANTING the square deific, out of the One advancing, out 
+of the sides;
+Out of the old and new—out of the square entirely divine,
+Solid, four-sided, (all the sides needed)…from this side 
+JEHOVAH am I,
+Old Brahm I, and I Saturnius am;
+Not Time affects me—I am Time, modern as any;
+Unpersuadable, relentless, executing righteous judgments;
+As the Earth, the Father, the brown old Kronos, with laws,
+Aged beyond computation—yet ever new—ever with those 
+mighty laws rolling,
+Relentless, I forgive no man—whoever sins, dies—I will 
+have that man's life;
+Therefore let none expect mercy—Have the seasons, gravi-
+tation, the appointed days, mercy?—No more have I;
+But as the seasons, and gravitation—and as all the appointed 
+days, that forgive not,
+I dispense from this side judgments inexorable, without the 
+least remorse.
+
+
+2
+
+Consolator most mild, the promis'd one advancing,
+With gentle hand extended, the mightier God am I,
+Foretold by prophets and poets, in their most rapt proph-
+ecies and poems;
+From this side, lo! the Lord CHRIST gazes—lo! Hermes I— 
+lo! mine is Hercules' face;
+All sorrow, labor, suffering, I, tallying it, absorb in myself;
+Many times have I been rejected, taunted, put in prison, 
+and crucified—and many times shall be again;
+All the world have I given up for my dear brothers' and 
+sisters' sake—for the soul's sake;
+
+Wending my way through the homes of men, rich or 
+poor, with the kiss of affection;
+For I am affection—I am the cheer-bringing God, with hope, 
+and all-enclosing Charity;
+(Conqueror yet—for before me all the armies and soldiers 
+of the earth shall yet bow—and all the weapons of 
+war become impotent:)
+With indulgent words, as to children—with fresh and sane 
+words, mine only;
+Young and strong I pass, knowing well I am destin'd my-
+self to an early death:
+But my Charity has no death—my Wisdom dies not, neither 
+early nor late,
+And my sweet Love, bequeath'd here and elsewhere, never 
+dies.
+
+
+3
+
+Aloof, dissatisfied, plotting revolt,
+Comrade of criminals, brother of slaves,
+Crafty, despised, a drudge, ignorant,
+With sudra face and worn brow—black, but in the depths 
+of my heart, proud as any;
+Lifted, now and always, against whoever, scorning, assumes 
+to rule me;
+Morose, full of guile, full of reminiscences, brooding, with 
+many wiles,
+(Though it was thought I was baffled and dispell'd, and 
+my wiles done—but that will never be;)
+Defiant, I, SATAN, still live—still utter words—in new lands 
+duly appearing, (and old ones also;)
+Permanent here, from my side, warlike, equal with any, 
+real as any,
+Nor time, nor change, shall ever change me or my words.
+
+
+Cont
+--- 21917873
+>>21917869
+4
+
+Santa SPIRITA, breather, life,
+Beyond the light, lighter than light,
+Beyond the flames of hell—joyous, leaping easily above hell;
+
+Beyond Paradise—perfumed solely with mine own perfume;
+Including all life on earth—touching, including God— 
+including Saviour and Satan;
+Ethereal, pervading all, (for without me, what were all? 
+what were God?)
+Essence of forms—life of the real identities, permanent, 
+positive, (namely the unseen,)
+Life of the great round world, the sun and stars, and of 
+man—I, the general Soul,
+Here the square finishing, the solid, I the most solid,
+Breathe my breath also through these little songs.
+--- 21917895
+>>21917873
+>>21917869
+Is this not man seeing himself as one with the world and universe (old and new) and praising this unity as a world creating force?
+
+Is using "Emerson's style" not canonizing these praises in the intellectual while admitting (much as Emerson does) the inherently spiritual?
+
+What is your point?
+--- 21917905
+>>21913431
+the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Holy Trinity.
+>muh gallows threat
+dude, Christians are literally immortal, so relax
+--- 21917920
+>>21917895
+He is very specifically outlining the fourfold god which he believes represents the American approach to spirituality and explaining how their foundation is within his own ego, his own soul is the basis of their spiritual and mystical power, this isn’t a kind of humble submission to an unknowable spiritual zone, he’s saying all of these derive from his own human Ego which goes into the broader question of the ego meditations and ego-sexuality that occurs in other Whitman poems, for again, the sexual-mystical relationship of the empirical ego with the transcendental ego, along with the public persona, are a major driving intellectual force behind Whitman, this is core to why Scholem relates his stuff to a kind of kabbalistic emanation system. 
+
+Why I’m ranting here anon is, while I don’t like the guy, Whitman can’t be reduced that simply into “life is good” without erasing so much of his work, efforts, time thought and care. There is absolutely a strong intellectual conception there, now his poetic techniques and aesthetics in their context and image bank are firmly based on the formulae I explained prior in other posts, but I don’t think it’s fair to cut the intellectual zones from Whitman.
+--- 21918939
+Bump
+--- 21919510
+Bloom on Whitman 
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io5mFFArsX4 [Embed]
+--- 21919527
+re the themes in V by Thomas Pynchon essentially when you take the cynicism of Dickinson but combine it with the optimism of Emerson?
+--- 21920727
+>>21907746
+>“of a CROWD/ of WORK/men and DRIVE/ ers IN/ a bar-ROOM”
+i don't get it, how is "in" accented?
+--- 21920849
+>>21920727
+When you have a multisyllabic word it inherently has its own stress pattern which really can’t be modified/can’t be modified as much, a two syllable word that’s a trochee like “drivers” will always be stressed on the first syllable and always be unstressed on the second. All monosyllable words depending on context can be made stressed or unstressed.
+
+Since drivers is divided between two feet, the latter portion “ers” can transmute anything placed next to it into a stress unless a multisyllabic iamb is placed next to it, in which case the foot becomes a pyrrhic, you can also turn it into a pyrrhic by immediately following it with two stresses, if one stress is placed it’s probably likely to be read as an anapest.
+
+However because there’s a clear unstressed “a “drivers in a bar” the natural pronunciation becomes “DRIVE ers IN uh BAR”

lit/21907813.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,267 @@
+-----
+--- 21907813
+Post your best or favorite historical reads/recommendations.
+--- 21907820
+>>21907813 (OP)
+What are some other great reads for understanding the Middle Ages? t. American who didn’t learn anything between 33AD-1776AD in school
+--- 21907838
+>>21907813 (OP)
+Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World
+--- 21907853
+>>21907820
+Georges Duby - The Three Orders
+--- 21907877
+>>21907820
+Depends what era you're looking for. The Middle Ages are generally split up into three periods. The time frame you listed also covers a few additional points of interest that can be just as fascinating.
+>Late Antiquity
+>Early/High/Late Middle Ages
+>Renaissance/Age of Discovery
+>Early Modern Age/Pre-Industrialization/Age of Sail
+--- 21907898
+>>21907820
+Marc Bloch, Feudal Society 
+OP pic related
+Henri Pirenne if you want social economic structural overviews 
+Lots of stuff on this website: 
+https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=resources&s=info&f=christian_europe
+
+They have a ton of digitized classic books that are great for short overviews
+--- 21907917
+>>21907813 (OP)
+The Power Broker by Robert Caro about Robert Moses
+--- 21907921
+>>21907813 (OP)
+Middle Ages:
+Arthur Rex by Thos. Berger
+Connecticut Yankee by Mark Twain
+19th cent:
+The Flashman books
+Occultism/Magic(k)al realism:
+Masks of the Illuminati by Robert Anton Wilson
+The Spirit Phone by Arthur Shattuck O'Keefe
+--- 21907930
+>>21907813 (OP)
+--- 21907940
+>>21907820
+Le Goff
+--- 21908176
+>>21907813 (OP)
+Yamasee war by I forgot who but title goes like that. Its a pretty nice book if you care about the history of the carolinas. It even includes a primary source by the indians.
+--- 21908281
+>>21907813 (OP)
+Does The Pilgrim's Progress count for medieval? If so, that one.
+--- 21908611
+>>21907820
+Evolution of Thought in the Middle Ages
+Shortest History of Europe
+Or just drive into the Western Canon to see what blew their hair back.
+In Praise of Folly.
+Canterbury Tales, while going through DTs and having spent every last dime.
+--- 21910225
+Bump
+--- 21910245
+I am reading this atm
+It's pretty good but the reviews say it's bad so I'm not really sure yet
+I tried reading the Cambridge History of Russia but it was a bit much
+--- 21910269
+>>21907813 (OP)
+What are some good books on tsarist russia?
+--- 21910275
+>>21907820
+--- 21910287
+>>21910269
+Oh man I'm doing my research on that right now
+I have a book called A History of Russia by Riasanovsky which is good although it's more of a thematic history along chronological lines so it might be missing some of the details
+You could read the Robert K Massie biographies of Peter, Catherine and Nicholas/Alexandra 
+I've read the one on Peter and Nicholas/Alexandra and you really get a good sense of that world
+There's the Cambridge History of Russia Volume 2: Imperial Russia, 1689–1917
+The problem is that it's not really chronological, it's just essays grouped together 
+Another book I have on my list is Russia Against Napoleon but that's more military history
+--- 21910289
+>>21910269
+Kino cover and would also recommend Lord and Peasant in Russia from the Ninth to the Nineteenth Century by Jerome Blum
+--- 21910298
+>>21910289
+Not that anon but thanks, I'll look into them
+--- 21910299
+>>21910269
+the Death of Ivan Ilych is a great novella, and gives some accounts on the bureucracy, culture and social dynamics in late tsarist russia. Of course, it is literature rather than a stictly historical book.
+>filename Iván el Terrible
+Ñ?
+--- 21910443
+Any recommendations for ancient Rome? Republic and/or empire?
+--- 21910466
+>>21910287
+>>21910289
+>>21910299
+Thank you anons
+No, it was just a Google result
+--- 21911383
+>>21907813 (OP)
+The Ancien Régime and the Revolution
+--- 21911421
+>>21910786
+Nice, I‘m thinking of getting either the Goebbels or Göring book after I finish Hitler‘s War
+--- 21912070
+An amazing account of the Eastern Front.
+--- 21912113
+>>21907877
+Yeah, I know that there’s more than just the Middle Ages between those points in time. I was just trying to illustrate how poor my education in history was outside of purely American history and biblical history. 
+>>21907898
+>>21907940
+>>21907853
+>>21908611
+>>21910275
+Thanks fellas
+--- 21912199
+This book was an eye opener for me in supporting some form of protectionist social corporatism. One does not need to hate Jews to admire the brilliance of the National Socialist reform of the 1930s. If Germany had managed to stay at peace it would have ruled the world.
+--- 21912219
+MacCuckloch is a great narrative historian and I enjoyed his History of Christianity and am currently enjoying his The Reformation. I’m trying to decide whether to continue my dive into Church history with a book on the ecumenical councils and another on the medieval Church, or instead to proceed to The Enlightenment by Richardson for another look at social change in early modern Europe.
+--- 21912321
+Any good books on the Holy Roman Empire?
+--- 21912329
+>>21907813 (OP)
+--- 21912498
+>>21911383
+I've read that but don't remember a lick of it
+--- 21912821
+>>21912321
+Frederick the Second by Ernst Kantorowicz is a biography of the Emperor Frederick "Stupor Mundi" (1194-1250), grandson of Frederick Barbarossa. Fantastic book. It was criticized a lot because of its style and partiality to his subject, but lots of serious historians love it. 
+
+For the early modern Holy Roman Empire, The Thirty Years War, by Wedgwood.
+--- 21912860
+>/his/ has to be hosted on /lit/ because /his/ is nothing but video game addicts mistaking 5 minutes on wikipedia as expertise
+--- 21912886
+>>21912860
+Even the genuine users just direct any book recommendations to this board. Half of /his/ now is just shitting on gods and philosopher du jour.
+--- 21912916
+>>21907813 (OP)
+Everything written by Robert Caro.
+
+We're getting book #5, right?
+--- 21913010
+>>21912860
+it has a huge atheist problem too which makes discussing scripture nigh impossible without some ex-redditor going on about le ebin sky fairy. I decided I'm gonna wait a week before going back.
+--- 21914240
+Paul Revere And The World He Lived In
+--- 21914390
+Do any anons know any good books on the Mongol Empire?
+--- 21914749
+>>21907813 (OP)
+
+la naissance de la noblesse de karl ferdinand werner 
+also a really interesting book is From Byzantium to Italy: Greek Studies in the Italian Renaissance by Nigel G wilson
+--- 21914777
+Help me out here /lit/. Pic related is an excerpt of a mercenary during the Congo war that someone's been posting, but the only information I can find is that the OP claims it's from a book called Someone Else's War (2001) by Anthony Rogers, itself an excerpt from Soldier of Fortune magazine, but the book itself isn't freely available in the usual places and I can't find it in SOF magazine.
+--- 21915887
+A Savage War of Peace
+--- 21915892
+>>21907820
+huizinga's "the waning of the middle ages" is really fascinating to get into the middle age mind
+--- 21915904
+since i randomly found this in my bookmarks yesterday maybe some of you will find use in this
+
+https://ryanfb.xyz/loebolus/
+--- 21916147
+Admiral of the Ocean Sea
+--- 21917263
+>>21907813 (OP)
+Bruce Catton is still my favorite read when it come to the civil war. 
+
+https://www.goodreads.com/series/59994-army-of-the-potomac
+--- 21917285
+>>21910269
+Interested in the topic too, especially in the early parts of it, the change from Muscovy to proper Russia, Ivan the terrible, all that cool shit.
+--- 21918014
+>>21910269
+I really enjoyed The Romanovs: 1613-1918
+--- 21918193
+>>21910443
+The Roman Revolution
+--- 21918240
+>>21910443
+The Twelve Caesars - Suetonius
+Augustus - Adrian Goldsworthy
+Julius Caesar - Philip Freeman
+--- 21918258
+>>21914390
+Mission to Asia by Christopher Dawson. From an Amazon review:
+The first primary source in this volume is John of Plano Carpini's 'History of the Mongols.' John was a 65 year old massively fat Franciscan monk without ANY knowledge of oriental languages. His mission was to spy on the Mongols to see if they were as threatening and powerful as reported and to provide suggestions as to ways to defend against them. His mission was supported by Pope Innocent IV and he set out on the 5,000 miles journey in 1245. John of Plano Carpini met with the Great Khan Guyuk and this text outlines the characters and customs of the Mongols, the food they ate, the roles of men and women, descriptions of their armies, their history, religion, government, clothes, housing, and even accurate accounts of the genealogy of the royal family. The most fascinating part of his account is his description of how to wage war against them. If Christendom wishes to save itself, the army "should be organized in the same way as the Tartar army," it ought to "have scouts in every direction," and "the Christians should also beware of their usual tendency of over-expenditure, lest they be obliged to go home on account of lack of money and the Tartars destroy the whole earth." This Chronicle is easy to read and is the first real contact with the Mongols by the West. It is interspersed with hilarious statements of Western disgust with Mongol customs, "they do not wash their dishes," "they do not wash their clothes," and if a "virgin commits fornication with anyone, they kill BOTH the man and the woman."
+
+The second group of documents are Two Bulls of Pope Innocent IV Addressed to the Emperor of the Tartars. These explain the tenants of the Christian faith and beg the Mongols to be peaceful and to do not harm to the envoys.
+
+The third document is The Narrative of Benedict the Pole. This is a brief relation by John of Plano Carpini's Polish companion dictated by him to a prelate of Cologne upon his return from Asia. It paraphrases the two bulls and provides little to John of Plano Carpini's much longer and more detailed account.
+
+The fourth document is Guyuk Khan's Letter to Pope Innocent IV (1246). The Khan states that he does not understand the Pope's request for him to be peaceful since he has the Mongol God's favor which is the reason the Mongols have already conquered most of Asia. He demands that the Pope "say with a sincere ear" the he will submit and serve him.
+
+The Journey of William of Rubrick is the second main primary source and is even more interesting than John's due to the fact that William of Rubrick voluntarily set out in the employ of the French king to convert the Mongols to Christianity. His account has the "fullest and most authentic information on the Mongol Empire in its pre-Chinese phase that we posses." Brother William's book is a straightforward account of his journey and his personal experiences in full detail...
+--- 21918335
+>>21907813 (OP)
+--- 21918352
+>>21915892
+I have to read that after Bloch
+--- 21918604
+>>21910443
+--- 21918611
+>>21914240
+I really like that painting on the cover.
+--- 21918776
+>>21910289
+That's an extremely epic cover
+--- 21918819
+>>21907813 (OP)
+>/History/
+>Tuchman
+Oh son. Nice joke.
+
+Go read Hammond & Hammond.
+--- 21918890
+Finished this today. Exceptionally well written, kino the whole way through. Made me want to read more about 19th century china.
+--- 21919141
+book recs for the socio-cultural effects of the Black Death? any region. or just Black Death books in general
+--- 21919149
+What are some good books on the Bronze/Iron ages?
+--- 21919163
+What's the best books on Byzantine history?
+--- 21919303
+>>21918890
+Read Imperial Twilight by Stephen Platt, great narrative history of the lead up to and events of the First Opium War
+--- 21919312
+>>21919163
+Procopius
+John Haldon
+Anthony Kaldellis
+Dumbarton Oaks translations
+--- 21919321
+>>21919149
+Haven't read Making of the Middle Sea yet, but it seems good.
+--- 21919330
+I’m enjoying microhistory. The book on the medieval court case The Return of Martin Guerre made for one of the best movies set in the era. Reading the book it’s amazing how much of it is real and preserved in documents. The premise is a young married man goes off to war and comes back a long time later quite changed. He greets his wife and their village and seems quite at home. But is it really him? 
+
+Second microhistory book is a swedish SS soldier’s account of the last months of the war leading up to trying to defend Berlin (published as Twilight of the Gods in english). He describes a xmas truce type situation on the eastern front which is rather staggering. After that they start getting stomped over and over. It’s interesting that he describes their morale being kept up with the wunderwaffen promises, what seems like thin propaganda now apparently really worked. Later he’s convinced Himmler is brokering a deal to join forces with the western powers against bolshevism (as in “surely they see the hun will destroy western civilization”). Despite being an unrepentant nazi he’s not delusional about how badly they got beat, and has several stories about insane last minute defenders like one guy who tried erecting a defense line on an open field. Tries to commandeer their already retreating grenade unit and panzer transport, and they fuck off and leave them in the dust. Moments later the entire force is torn to bits by Stalin Organs. 
+
+The Cheese and the Worms is up next.
+--- 21919339
+>>21919149
+I enjoyed this book. Be warned the conclusion to “why” is a limp “lots of reasons as mentioned in this book” rather than something definite (that bothers some people but I think it’s honest given the limitations on what we can know here). You get a good sense of how interconnected the world was during this time period though, massive trade networks from Afghanistan to the british isles, regular mail routes, big sustained shipments going around the Mediterranean Sea and crucial to the empires, advanced enough that they’re starting to insure shipping like you see during the renaissance and age of exploration, education programs and so on. 
+Then it all goes to shit. It’s interesting to consider the “what if” of this golden age continuing.
+--- 21919365
+Any recommendations on historiography?
+--- 21920002
+Son of the Morning Star
+--- 21920238
+>>21910269
+I recently enjoyed Rural Russia Under the Old Regime by Richard pipes. It’s less than 300 pages and starts with the early foundations of Muscovy, so admittedly it’s not super in-depth on the tsarist era. I found it a good starting point though because due so it’s short length you can get through it quickly and by covering the early history it gives you good context for later
+--- 21920244
+>>21919330
+I was going to recommend Carlo Ginsburg, so I’m glad to see you have cheese and the worms lined up. Hope you like it
+--- 21920255
+>>21918890
+Almost everything by Jonathan Spence is worth reading, he’s basically a legend in every universitys Chinese faculty here in the US
+--- 21921221
+>>21918611
+Based Grant Wood
+
+https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Wood
+--- 21921377
+The Glorious Cause: The American Revolution, 1763-1789 by Robert Middlekauff

lit/21908901.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,428 @@
+-----
+--- 21908901
+*the books that hunts the /lit/ board by being right*
+--- 21908913
+>>21908901 (OP)
+I dont mind suffering because life is pretty
+--- 21908920
+>>21908913
+Say that to a kid with terminal cancer that can leave the hospital. Imagine being this retarded and pyschopatic.
+--- 21908931
+>>21908901 (OP)
+literally just fuck women, as much and as many as you can - that’s your only objective purpose in life, and you’ll forget all about antinatalism once you’re balls deep in some queefing slampig.
+--- 21908932
+>>21908920
+He will agree with me if hes based
+--- 21908933
+Daily reminder that transhumanism will lead to the complete abolition of all suffering.
+
+ https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html
+
+>Benatar's policy prescription is untenable. Radical anti-natalism as a recipe for human extinction will fail because any predisposition to share that bias will be weeded out of the population. Radical anti-natalist ethics is self-defeating: there will always be selection pressure against its practitioners. Complications aside, any predisposition not to have children or to adopt is genetically maladaptive. On a personal level, the decision not to bring more suffering into the world and forgo having children is morally admirable. But voluntary childlessness or adoption is not a global solution to the problem of suffering. 
+
+>Yet how should rational moral agents behave if - hypothetically - some variant of Benatar's diagnosis as distinct from policy prescription was correct? 
+
+>In an era of biotechnology and unnatural selection, an alternative to anti-natalism is the world-wide adoption of genetically preprogrammed well-being. For there needn't be selection pressure against gradients of lifelong adaptive bliss - i.e. a radical recalibration of the hedonic treadmill. The only way to eradicate the biological substrates of unpleasantness - and thereby prevent the harm of Darwinian existence - is not vainly to champion life's eradication, but instead to ensure that sentient life is inherently blissful. More specifically, the impending reproductive revolution of designer babies is likely to witness intense selection pressure against the harmfulness-promoting adaptations that increased the inclusive fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment of adaptation. If we use biotechnology wisely, then gradients of genetically preprogrammed well-being can make all sentient life subjectively rewarding - indeed wonderful beyond the human imagination. So in common with "positive" utilitarians, the "negative" utilitarian would do better to argue for genetically preprogrammed superhappiness.
+--- 21908934
+>>21908920
+Are you saying the boy should be euthanized?
+--- 21908939
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqeN2RRR3xQ [Embed]
+--- 21908942
+>>21908933
+Daily reminder that his retard think more people should be put through hell just in hope for some future salvation, kek.
+--- 21909067
+>>21908901 (OP)
+Did you mean to say haunt? Newfag
+--- 21909211
+The argument for antinatalism is not this gay book, it's liveleak or monkey torture gifs
+--- 21909218
+>suffering bad
+--- 21909220
+>>21909211
+There is redemption even in torture
+--- 21909228
+>>21908931
+>your only objective purpose in life
+Sad and untrue. Much like >>21908901 (OP). Another trash thread by godless nothings seeking nothing but sniffing their dreams' farts to feel like big boys. I can't even believe the secular world can exist.
+--- 21909236
+>>21908901 (OP)
+>mentally ill tranny general
+You should just kys. You live in the most materially prosperous time and are still whining about how difficult life is.
+--- 21909242
+>>21909211
+That's just an argument against south americans, racist.
+--- 21909704
+>>21908901 (OP)
+i'm just not having kids is all
+lol
+lmao
+i'm just not.... i'm just not going to create and raise children!
+boomers seethe eternally
+--- 21909819
+>>21908901 (OP)
+Pic rel is the actual book btw.
+--- 21910392
+>>21909218
+>suffering... Is Le good
+>I like suffering therefore all people like suffering too
+
+Imagine being this mentally retarded
+--- 21910403
+>>21908920
+Most kids with terminal cancer would probably agree
+--- 21910429
+>>21908920
+>Cancer
+Just one of the many punishments laid upon modern humanity for ruining their bodies. Well deserved. Everyone should get cancer.
+--- 21910632
+>>21908901 (OP)
+Wish I had the courage to kill myself, desu. Been really not feeling life of ever.
+--- 21910742
+>>21910392
+what a dysgenic weakling. that book's right on one point at least: faggots like you should never have been.
+--- 21910746
+>>21910392
+suffering has many merits, i'm sure you can think of a few.
+--- 21910790
+>>21908901 (OP)
+No wonder benatar wants to kill himself he was btfod by Kermit.
+https://youtu.be/vsyZcKUP_-k [Embed]
+--- 21910798
+>>21908913
+Fpbp
+--- 21910977
+Working on my theology of Christian Antinatalism.
+--- 21911269
+Bump
+--- 21911280
+I took a very, very large shit last saturday. It was of such a size that I had to find a rubber glove, and break it down bit by bit with my hand for it to even have a chance to flush. We are talking about 5-10 pounds of fecal matter. It was the size of a loaf of bread. 
+
+The relief I felt after passing it was so immense, so overawing that I felt it for three days afterwards. This pleasure alone outweighs all the suffering that (You) have ever felt. I am the Nozickean dookie-monster, and I shit (heh) on hedonist utilitarianism.
+--- 21911380
+>>21908913
+im sure the rationalization of your axiom is sound
+--- 21911397
+>>21911280
+but you're also hedonist no?
+personally i do away with both pleasure and pain, you seem to use pain as a means to gain pleasure, so a hedonist.
+--- 21911418
+>>21908901 (OP)
+We're about to get AGI. It'll probably destroy us, but it'll be pretty great if it doesn't. Why give up when you're in the home stretch?
+--- 21911447
+>>21911418
+AGI isn't magic, it probably still has to work under the laws of physics.
+--- 21911913
+>>21910977
+The Cathars and Bogomils already figured it out years ago. You can add Augustine to them too. So you are a few centuries late for that bro.
+--- 21912977
+/lit/ status:
+buck broken
+--- 21913151
+>>21908901 (OP)
+How often do you need to be assblasted you fucking faggot?
+--- 21913535
+>>21913151
+why does antinatalism trigger you so much?
+show me where the antinatalists touched you.
+--- 21913634
+>oh the horror!
+>what are we ever gonna do?
+>none existent people not existing!!!!
+>I weep and shred in horror at this idea
+
+t. natalist
+--- 21913650
+>>21912977
+Still to this day none in the lit has an actual good argument against anti-natalism.
+--- 21913659
+>>21908901 (OP)
+If the book is right, why haven't you killed yourself?
+--- 21913661
+>>21908933
+kek
+--- 21913816
+>>21913659
+not op;
+not worth the bother, i was already born tis simply too late.
+--- 21913962
+>>21911913
+I know there are historical antecedents, or at least figures who can be leveraged in that direction.
+--- 21913970
+>>21913659
+I currently have a reason to live.
+--- 21914123
+>>21913650
+It's been refuted many times, actually. That's partially why these threads are so stupid.
+--- 21914142
+>>21914123
+False
+--- 21914195
+I don't think it's possible to show that having (or not having) children is morally wrong in any objective sense, since there is no objective morality. But I think that not having children is a reasonable course of action to take for oneself, based upon many of the arguments presented by antinatalism. It's also reasonable to use these arguments as if they were objective moral tools in order to convince others to not have children.
+--- 21914268
+>>21914123
+You haven't demonstrated that pain is good.
+you just stated that you think it's good.
+--- 21914279
+>>21908901 (OP)
+Ah yes, the Bible of the Nietzschean untermensch. How droll.
+--- 21914282
+>>21914268
+>AHHHHHHHHH I'M SUFFERING, I THINK I'M GOING INSANE AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH SAVE ME NIGGERMAN
+--- 21914291
+>>21914282
+Niggerman is too weak to save humanity from existence
+--- 21914295
+>>21914268
+The funniest thing about you fags is that you're (probably) first world scum living in the most technologically, medically advanced, wealthiest civilization in the history of mankind, and yet you still bitch and moan, more so than any generation before you. 
+Imagine being a galley slave. Imagine your entire family dying of plague. Imagine starving to death. 
+>Worse suffering doesn't invalidate my own
+Yeah, maybe not. But here's the thing, existence isn't at fault, you're just mentally... unwell I suppose.
+--- 21914298
+>>21914295
+>the most technologically, medically advanced, wealthiest civilization in the history of mankind
+And life is still awful
+--- 21914304
+>>21914295
+im a chronic pain sufferer, and yes lesser pain doesn't invalidate shit
+i'd like to see you recite your own philosophy while going through the worst pain imaginable
+maybe then id start believing that what you say might have some merit.
+--- 21915052
+Better never to have NEETed - the harm of coming into neetdom.
+--- 21915110
+>>21914295
+Raw population numbers alone mean there is more suffering today than ever in history.
+
+It sucks to have been them, but taken wholistically it's an unlikely circumstance.
+--- 21915409
+>>implying suffering is bad
+--- 21917043
+>>21908901 (OP)
+An unfortunate thing happened in that you fell into this particular rabbit hole. You're right, he's right, but whatever. Maybe these threads are shitpost and maybe they're catharsis. Either way its pissing in the wind. Just watch cartoons and wait for this to be over because there is no benefit to further exploration.
+--- 21917914
+>>21914295
+Convince me you're not some fucking fatass boomer.
+You probably grew up in a time when you could work full time and own a house in 5 years. 
+Try doing that today you fucking faggot.
+--- 21917941
+>>21914295
+Even in a "perfect world" I would be bored. There is nothing to do, everything turns to dust, this life means nothing
+--- 21918071
+>"Life is heckin meaningless and cruel!"
+>"I did not give enthusiastic consent to be born! I was birth-raped!"
+>"Non-existance is way awsomer than life!"
+
+>"Kill myself? N-n-no... I'm not going to do that... I need to live because... because I need to spread the word of how meaningless and cruel life... It's not like I actually prefer life to death or anything..."
+--- 21918098
+>>21918071
+Antinatalism is winning by the way.
+--- 21918103
+>>21908901 (OP)
+I am childfree, not antinatalist.
+I don't give a shit if people's children suffer or die miserably as long as it doesn't affect me.
+--- 21918171
+>>21908901 (OP)
+>It's another episode of pessimist loser cuck being miserable
+And he chickens out of suicide, as usual.
+
+>And it seemed to him that there was not a single article of faith of the church which could destroy the chief thing—faith in God, in goodness, as the one goal of man’s destiny.
+
+>Under every article of faith of the church could be put the faith in the service of truth instead of one’s desires. And each doctrine did not simply leave that faith unshaken, each doctrine seemed essential to complete that great miracle, continually manifest upon earth, that made it possible for each man and millions of different sorts of men, wise men and imbeciles, old men and children—all men, peasants, Lvov, Kitty, beggars and kings to understand perfectly the same one thing, and to build up thereby that life of the soul which alone is worth living, and which alone is precious to us.
+
+>Lying on his back, he gazed up now into the high, cloudless sky. “Do I not know that that is infinite space, and that it is not a round arch? But, however I screw up my eyes and strain my sight, I cannot see it not round and not bounded, and in spite of my knowing about infinite space, I am incontestably right when I see a solid blue dome, and more right than when I strain my eyes to see beyond it.”
+
+>Levin ceased thinking, and only, as it were, listened to mysterious voices that seemed talking joyfully and earnestly within him.
+
+>“Can this be faith?” he thought, afraid to believe in his happiness. “My God, I thank Thee!” he said, gulping down his sobs, and with both hands brushing away the tears that filled his eyes.
+--- 21918174
+>>21918098
+Check the birthrates, loser.
+--- 21918183
+>>21918174
+Over 60 million abortions in the US alone since Roe v. Wade. Who knows what the broader numbers are. Most developed nations also below the population replacement rate. Specifically the higher races (the only ones I care about) are dying out. The future earth is going to be a sludge planet inhabited by soulless mud people.
+--- 21918192
+>>21915409
+>Noooooooo, pleasure is the ultimate goal of existence. If I hurt my ankle it means that life is meaningless!
+To an extent I'm glad that these clowns put themselves out of the human development pool. But in reality, they need medical treatment.
+--- 21918195
+>>21918183
+Birth rates, loser. Check them.
+>soulless mud people
+More soul than a vasectomised psychopath.
+--- 21918203
+>>21918195
+>Birth rates, loser. Check them.
+As I stated, I don't care about all humans, only particular races.
+--- 21918214
+>>21908901 (OP)
+This is the opinion of someone without a serious interest in philosophy.
+
+The argument works because it confirms a preheld bias toward suffering, his main premise is that the inflicting of suffering carries moral weight that the receiving of pleasure/happiness/whatever does not.
+
+But this skips over the entire sub-discipline of meta-ethics, where you'll find that this notion of even valuing "pleasure" or "happiness" is outdated by at least a century. Most consequentialist these days are "preference utilitarians", because as an ethical theory preference utilitarianism is able to account for the fundamentally subjective nature of moral values.
+
+If he's right, then he's right in a framework that sees ethics as merely not inflicting suffering, and this is a framework that is easily escaped. To say he's "wrong" would be missing the point, more like: even if he is, broadly speaking, right, he wouldn't be universally so.
+--- 21918224
+>>21908901 (OP)
+sick and tired of these crap threads, every day the same
+jannys do your job
+--- 21918226
+>>21918203
+>I don't care about all humans
+Good that humans don't care about such cuck perspective either. Did your favorite pessimist scribbler consult you about this?
+--- 21918229
+Whether suffering is bad in itself is complicated. For example if I want to get X, but the only way to get X is to suffer in some way, I might consent to the suffering and view it as worthwhile if I want X badly enough. This is normal human behavior. But the fact remains that it would have been preferable to get X without suffering for it. That I have to suffer for things that I want is a defect of existence and is sufficient to render antinatalism a reasonable response to existence. This is part of how existence itself keeps you trapped within a system composed of suffering. Anything that is good in existence is built upon a foundation of suffering.
+--- 21918237
+>>21918229
+(cont.) A response to this might be that it isn't necessarily better to receive something without suffering for it. For example one might claim that suffering builds character. But the reason that we need a character that is improved by suffering, is to help us respond to future suffering. This is just another aspect of the trap I referred to.
+--- 21918238
+>>21918229
+Yeah, pessimists never grew up to learn what delayed gratification is.
+>That I have to suffer for things that I want is a defect of existence
+Says who?
+--- 21918239
+>Say it's better to not exist
+>Continue to choose to exist
+
+Every breath you take refutes your own thesis anti-natalist sisters.
+--- 21918246
+>>21918238
+Says me. You need to suffer to get things that are good. You need to suffer to create things that are good. You suffer to get and create things that are good so that you can use them to relieve suffering. You cope and say that the suffering you undergo is good because it helps you to endure future suffering that you will undergo to get and create things that will help you relieve suffering.
+--- 21918250
+>>21914195
+but having children is joy.
+--- 21918255
+>>21918246
+>Says me
+Sucks to be you.
+>You cope
+Yes. And through this men endure suffering on their way to good. It's not a "defect" of existence, it is existence. Per aspera ad astra, bitch.
+--- 21918263
+>>21918255
+>And through this men endure suffering on their way to good.
+You try to achieve the good to alleviate suffering. It's all circular as I said. Existence is a trap of suffering.
+--- 21918275
+Taking a shit is the perfect example of existence. Taking a shit is suffering. You have to stop whatever you're doing and expel waste from your asshole and then clean up. But doing it feels good, your body creates a pleasure response because your body needs you to do it (same with eating, urinating, etc.). So you go shit because your body requires you to shit because if you didn't shit you couldn't keep suffering so that you can shit again tomorrow, on and on until you die.
+--- 21918290
+>>21918263
+>You try to achieve the good to alleviate suffering
+No, you go through suffering to achieve good.
+>Existence is a trap of suffering.
+Existence is a war against entropy. The eternal jihad against the dying of the light, if you will. That's just how the nature is, with or without you.
+--- 21918476
+whats the point of this debate? nobody will ever be convinced by words or logic to do or not do something that is essentially, a bodily function.
+--- 21918484
+>>21918476
+Bored and have nothing else to do
+--- 21918608
+>>21918476
+The perpetual humiliation of the loser pessimists, of course.
+--- 21918735
+I’ve read pic related, but I didn’t get too much from it. I understand it objectively, but at the same point it doesn’t jive with my own sensibilities. I did like Thomas Liggoti though, but these writers are all maladaptive in their own way. Not really stoked on taking life advice from those that deny vitality and forward personal progression
+--- 21918845
+I think, when you strip away all cultural notions about procreation (i.e. "having children", "becoming a parent", "giving the inlaws grandkids", etc) what you're actually doing is creating another human body.
+
+There are significant downsides to being a human body. I'll list some:
+>constant need to maintain homeostasis, at risk of death
+>for example - constant need for warmth, water, calories, vitamins, minerals, protection 
+>the capacity for injury, illness, disease, accidents
+>the capacity to cause harm to other human bodies, and animal bodies
+>inevitable decay and decline of function as we age
+>inescapable death of the body
+
+I just really do not understand why anyone would want to put these conditions in place for another body to spend their time dealing with, mitigating, addressing, etc. These are just "base" needs as well, we have all kinds of other social, sexual, existential needs as well. It's endless. 
+
+Why make someone else deal with it? Only to die in the end just like you?
+--- 21918951
+>>21908901 (OP)
+I've said it before and I'll say it again: the womb of a woman can never be penetrated by anything but a man's seed. His thoughts and philosophies are irrelevant and will never penetrate her consciousness, which is secondary to the drives of her womb. 148 IQ men can grumble on boards like this all day and write books like picrel but literal Forest Gump retardesses will fuck 3 different apes and bear them 5 children while they're in and out of jail. Unless we return to actual paternalism (which still has illegitimate children) or invent artificial wombs, women will control childbearing and childbearing discourse. Discussions of antinatalism by men is materially pointless.
+--- 21918957
+The OP is insincere or he would support euthanizing everyone, especially kids with cancer, but he won’t because he knows life is preferable to death. He won’t say the Holocaust was a great moral accomplishment. He won’t advocate for nuclear war. Truth is, he is too unattractive or lacks the means to have children and so pretends he is morally superior, akin to Nietzsche’s understanding of the slave morality.
+--- 21919249
+>>21908939
+https://youtube.com/watch?v=XnnOhZuny_M [Embed]
+--- 21919334
+>>21913535
+I don't care about antinatalism and I think in general that it's a good thing that the weak purge themselves. What bothers me is the fact that you are such a spineless faggot who spams this garbage virtually every day without contributing anything or having any meaningful discussion. There have been made plenty of effortposts in your previous spam threads and you never answer any of them.
+--- 21919373
+Obviously this nihilistic pessimistic schtick is just that otherwise these people wouldn't filibuster they would just kill themselves the real debate is what do we do about the population because a few beard twiddling overthinking people will use this as an ideology to live hedonistically under the cover of complaining and then a lot of Indians and Africans and so on will continue to have the room temperature IQ children until the Earth is barren of all life. 
+
+To say nothing of the current Nations and their status quo this will cause the world as we know it to eventually run out of these bargain bin ethnicities to hopscotch back and forth as a means of Outsourcing population and demographics. No one that doesn't want to have unprotected sex with attractive healthy partners everyone wants eugenics by its very nature because that's what you're evolved to want it's just pretty healthy people fucking. Homo and asexuality and so on aren't valid identities let alone biological realities. They're mental illnesses. 
+
+In order to perpetuate itself as ridiculous as it may sound the state will have to create a system of orphanages in which people can apply to basically breed and then dump the kid off cuz no one wants to raise it and then go back to their being doctors or Instagram influencers etc. 
+
+That's the smart path forward that's not malicious but this system is not smart and is malicious. I hope you like tsunamis of trash and can speak Igbo.
+--- 21920203
+Do antinatalists have an answer to 10 billion sub-saharan africans? What is the antinatalist position on foreign aid?
+--- 21920226
+>>21920203
+Stop giving them so much aide and teach them effective methods of protection.
+
+Yes, it is that simple.
+--- 21920281
+>>21920226
+What if we stopped them from procreating?
+--- 21920320
+>>21920203
+Don't care what happens to black people.
+--- 21920392
+>>21920320
+Black people will still happen to you
+--- 21920400
+>>21920392
+Not if my race stops having children and goes extinct.
+--- 21920405
+The irony is that proponents of antinatalism, due to concerns of ethics or harm reduction, are also the ones promoting refugees, malaria nets, maximum bantu vaccination and expropriation of calories to africa.
+--- 21920450
+>>21920405
+Don't support any of those things.
+--- 21920542
+god antinatalists are insufferable. we get it
+--- 21920543
+>>21909228
+>muh gods
+Cuckshit. Jew worshiper. Unintelligent.
+--- 21921086
+>>21919249
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFdj41ndC5E [Embed]
+--- 21921416
+>>21921086
+I still can't believe how kind he is towards Mario.
+It really hurt him on some level that MM was so sick and went so far off the rails. Inmendham really does come from a place of empathy. You can tell it hurts the guy just to consider human existence.
+--- 21921478
+Anon fears the presocratics
+--- 21921522
+>>21921478
+I fear for my cornhole around them.
+--- 21921645
+This thread reminded me of a madman i saw on youtube that basically wants to reduce suffering by reducing natural life on earth. Also against composting because the bugs suffer.
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i_bjw9HS80 [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mZz07SJZI [Embed]
+--- 21921702
+Today I will not have children
+--- 21921862
+I've become less extreme in my antinatalism. 
+Because things only exist for a short period of time and than they cease existing. This is merciful.
+I think bad or good don't exist and that everything nesscarily works for its own benefits.
+We can suffer but we can and so must bare our suffering.
+Monistic thinking is changing my perception. I can't view life as something that was done to me (parents conspiring to spawn me, or an evil demiurge) but rather something that I have done to myself. I have no self existences that isn't contingent on everything that exist around me. I am a table, I am the stars, I am a pool of water, I am a dirty rag, I am my mother. 
+
+I won't have children but not because I am against it but because I am an autistic dysgenic incel.
+
+I still think its reckless to have children however. Since eternal recurrence, eternalism, empty individualism and less likely eternal hellfire are possibilities.
+
+I know God hates me because I am best a realizing Gods true nature which he has tried to conceal. This is why I am being punished.
+--- 21922201
+>>21921645
+>https://briantomasik.com/my-dating-profile/
+
+His dating profile lol. a 40 page essay in autism.
+--- 21922249
+>>21921862
+>I think bad or good don't exist
+>We can suffer but we can and so must bare our suffering.
+If there is no good or bad then there isn't anything you must or must not do
+--- 21922276
+Worth considering. How do antinatalists respond?
+
+https://youtu.be/_rZwnJ1cE1s [Embed]

lit/21909823.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,201 @@
+-----
+--- 21909823
+Hi everyone. We did an interview with Ryan/K. R. Hartley, the editor of &amp magazine. It'd mean a lot (especially, I'm sure, to him) if you could check it out and hear his voice and the enthusiasm he has for /lit/ and the work he did for &amp. He goes into some neat history about former /lit/ projects like the Quarterly and the Moby Dick commentary, as well.
+
+https://youtu.be/GqFXfR9BYZk [Embed]
+--- 21909861
+>&amp
+Christ how long have I been on this fucking website?
+--- 21909946
+>>21909823 (OP)
+I never submitted to &amp but really pulling for this dude. I hope we see him on the other side clean and sober because he gives off great vibes
+--- 21909961
+>>21909823 (OP)
+Can you post a link to the Unreal Discord?
+--- 21910142
+>>21909961
+There is no Unreal Discord. Whatever you have heard is merely rumors and creative fiction.
+--- 21910150
+Reminder that the appeal to retarded schizoposting is what killed &amp. The first few issues had some genuinely good shit tho, The Justice System is still hilarious to me.
+--- 21910153
+>>21910150
+Many would argue that drugs killed &amp
+--- 21910172
+editor is alive. dude was posting on the &amp insta earlier today. hope he’s stayed off the crack.
+--- 21910203
+>>21910172
+I'm more concerned about the fentanyl.
+--- 21910219
+>>21910203
+We all have our vices. I bet you drink too much or something. Don’t act so superior. If life throws enough shit at you you could end up just like him.
+--- 21910229
+so are we still getting more &amp ?!
+--- 21910273
+>>21910142
+the hosts shut it down after getting exposed for doxxing someone they had drama with
+--- 21910475
+So is it pronounced 'lamp' or 'amp?'
+--- 21910483
+>>21910475
+It's "ampersandamp"
+--- 21910514
+>>21910475
+It’s pronounced “amp.” That’s short for “Amplify Trans Voices”
+--- 21910981
+>>21910172
+Finally, some good news. I hope he wasn't just high on coke when he did the interview.
+--- 21910990
+>>21910273
+Ok, one of the editors for /unreal/ here. I was behind the Oriental project 
+None of the editors (nor any contributors to our projects as far as we are aware, but that's a lot of people who we are not responsible for anyway) have engaged in doxxing of any sort 
+
+For about half a year now however, a number of individuals have taken issue with us, very likely for no other reason than we are trying to do something that goes beyond the board (because people here can be stupidly bitter and unhinged as we should have been prepared for) and this is the source of such rumours. Our server was first targeted by a number of raids by what we believe to have been a group of two or three, but utilising many more alt accounts than that. 
+We then did what we could to identify the people behind this (not their real identities, just what information they themselves had already made available) and when this was discovered several of us received threats of violence and doxxing ourselves. Now, we aren't too worried about that actually happening, but this is the source of the rumours that we engaged in doxxing ourselves. 
+
+Most posters saying this are probably from one of these individuals and if not they are responding to it being posted by these individuals at an earlier time
+
+Because this situation became so much of a headache we decided to shut down the public server, what is the point after all if it leads to stupid shit like this instead and actually harms productivity?
+
+However, someone convinced us to simply give the server to a trustworthy individual and let him turn it into a server for Writing /General/. A lot of those guys were already in the server, have contributed to unreal projects and so they can have it. The server should no longer be a target as unreal is not involved in admin any more or using it. We will however continue to drop by in order to share our podcast and ask for submissions for future projects
+
+You can join the new server here https://discord.gg/HpuC4XPB
+--- 21911034
+>>21910981
+update: sent the account a dm and it’s not editor, it’s some other dude running the account while editor is sorting out his life
+--- 21911088
+>>21911059
+Please explain how this is evidence of doxxing on our part?
+
+Ari, the individual mentioned in your screenshot (possibly was not one of those involved in the raiding/ threats but we won't ever be able to confirm) was not doxxed by any of us. That is a discord username
+
+In no sense is identifying malicious individuals openly in the way we did (not revealing personal information or going after them in real life, if we even could) doxxing
+
+It is also very clear from the way you communicate you are a member of this malicious group, it's entirely transparent, any outside viewer can see. 
+You will be banned on site if you are found under a knew name stirring trouble in the new server btw, this is the agreement we have with the new owner
+--- 21911159
+>>21911034
+Maybe it's one of the guys the &amp editor mentioned in the interview. I wonder if anyone is going to pick up &amp in his absence either
+--- 21911177
+I just wanna write for gods sake. How dare you interfere with /lit/ publications?
+--- 21911188
+>>21911034
+There is a pathetic guy dead set on stealing the editors social credit so probably him. Since editor doxxed himself I'm not gonna give a shit about any account claiming to be him until he emerges again.
+
+>>21911159
+>is going to pick up &amp in his absence
+I saw Ogden Nesmer debating some kind of mini-&amp issue to keep the torch burning, some others might be too
+--- 21911315
+It's weird hearing these guys talk about a thread in which people were shitting on the HMS Mariana story for having plot holes. I remember that thread and posted in it. We're almost famous bros
+--- 21911344
+this is some of the gayest shit to come out of lit. i can't wait for the &amp saga to be over.
+--- 21911386
+Judging by this podcast the &amp guy seems pretty cool. Where do you guys place accent from? I'm not even sure if he has an accent per se or if it's just the rhythm of his speech and his voice or what but I think he talks differently than what I hear where I'm from but he also doesn't sound southern or like a northeastern New York/ Jersey guy. Anyways all this talk about and activity from &amp and unreal really inspire me to write and make me want to write at my best level. Cool stuff they're doing.
+--- 21911460
+>>21911386
+He's Canadian. And same. Shit like this gets me pumped.
+--- 21911477
+>>21910990
+So dumb to shut down the server though. All momentum immediately lost.
+--- 21911480
+>>21909823 (OP)
+Whatever we might think of the actions portrayed as of Unreal as of late, they've always been good at interviews and this—this is something special. &amp. Let that be the focus. Great stuff. Hoping all will be all right with the Editor.
+--- 21911557
+Is the guy in this podcast (&amp editor) the same guy that made that thread a couple weeks ago? The thread that read like a series of strange, rambling stream of consciousness journal entries. If so he seems alright in this podcast compared to that thread, for sure.
+--- 21911570
+>I was away from /lit/ for awhile, and when I came back F. Gardner had 17 new books.
+Kek. He's such a prolific world famous author of Call of the Crocodile and other books from the Horrors Call series which are books set in Chicago that are connected but can be read in any order.
+--- 21911606
+>>21911557
+Yep. I believe this interview was recorded before that though.
+--- 21911744
+>>21911460
+Have you ever submitted anything to &amp or unreal or any others?
+--- 21911781
+I have a section of a notebook that I use just to jot down ideas for potential novels, poems, essays, and mostly short stories. At this point there's hundreds of things in there ranging from one sentence ideas to paragraphs to short outlines. Whenever I decided to try to write I can't think of anything I want to write about so I refer to my ideas notebook and flip through it and don't want to write from any of the ideas I have written down so I just put it all away for next time. I think I'm just lacking the self-discipline to be a writer. I'm not going to make it guys.
+--- 21911981
+>>21911781
+Post skitzobook
+--- 21912083
+>>21909823 (OP)
+Honestly listening to this and hearing how on the roll Unreal and &amp and the lit scene in general is has inspired me to dig out some old stories I was working on. Will submit to Unreal if the stories are worth anything.
+--- 21912244
+>>21909823 (OP)
+damn. didn't know he was that into Unreal. They had a genuine literary circle going it seems. Shame editor went and fucked himself over with drugs, there were sparkles of greatness there.
+--- 21912296
+>>21912244
+Honestly, seeing how buddy buddy the two were kinda vindicates all those "writer from Unreal here hope you get better" comments on the thread where editor was saying goodbye and talking about being arrested for crack. Sounds like ryan didn't have a lot of other friends in his life who were sound minded, and once he got arrested there was no way for the discord guys to contact him and send their condolences save for through that thread.
+--- 21912481
+>coronameron and annotated Moby dick anons worked on &amp
+I ironically very cool to know
+--- 21912579
+>>21912296
+Losing his buddy the first year of COVID hit him really hard. You can tell in that thread where he had hoped his buddy would read and tell him what he thought of Chicken World.
+--- 21912720
+This is an &ampersnapdt post
+based
+based
+based
+based
+I'm going to reply to my own post with based
+based
+--- 21912734
+>>21912720
+based
+--- 21913002
+>>21912720
+>>21912734
+Not that anon
+Based
+>inb4 samefag
+Lol
+Baded
+--- 21913579
+Great listen desu
+--- 21913944
+>>21912083
+We'd love to have you. Rising tide, and all that.
+--- 21914549
+Bump
+--- 21915083
+Did my essay on overpopulation ever make it in?
+--- 21915688
+>>21909823 (OP)
+Bump
+--- 21915880
+>>21909823 (OP)
+Is there any way I can still get the moby dick /lit/ commentary?
+--- 21915894
+>>21915083
+Was that for the nonfiction anthology?
+--- 21915927
+>>21915880
+https://www.lulu.com/shop/herman-melville-and-anonymous/moby-dick/paperback/product-7wgny7.html
+--- 21916203
+>>21910229
+Probably not for a long time but I’m thinking of starting a successor magazine.
+--- 21916357
+>>21916203
+cool, I’m down to collab if you need a coeditor. do you have any experience with publishing or design?
+--- 21916462
+>>21915927
+>https://www.lulu.com/shop/herman-melville-and-anonymous/moby-dick/paperback/product-7wgny7.html
+THANKS
+--- 21916554
+>>21916357
+No, no experience obvs
+--- 21917814
+Bump
+--- 21917994
+>>21916554
+Why do you say 'obvs?' If someone says they're thinking about doing some project, and that's all they say about it would you think it's automatically implied that they have no experience with the thing they intend to do?
+--- 21918902
+Bump editor where are you
+--- 21919722
+>>21918902
+I don't think he's coming back for a while. This is just like his hiatus from earlier where he vanished inexplicably due to being arrested.
+--- 21921314
+>>21910219
+Fentanyl isn't a vice; it's a substitute for suicide.
+--- 21921352
+>>21909823 (OP)
+saw F Gardner shilled this magazine recently. never heard of it before that. might check it out sometime.

lit/21911735.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,162 @@
+-----
+--- 21911735
+My favourite part was when she said “Its mathin’ time” and mathed all over those guys. What did you think?
+--- 21911757
+>reddit meme
+--- 21911833
+>>21911735 (OP)
+shut the fuck up
+--- 21911841
+>>21911826
+git gud scrub
+--- 21911861
+>>21911826
+It is unlike any of that trash. It's good.
+--- 21911891
+>>21911735 (OP)
+Did anyone see that long interview on youtube, where they spend most of the time talking about his relationship with mathematicians?
+
+I was kind of annoyed because I wanted to hear about literature and his writing, but at the same time Im a maths student and I felt like I was being called out for not studying.
+--- 21911920
+>>21911891
+Deep art, analytical philosophy and abstract mathematics are very similar yet different fields. All 3 rely on deep intuition and powerful imagination. That's what McCarthy is getting at. That's why he is so much better at handling mathematics than physics (The Passenger). It reminded me, curiously, of this. When she talks with the post-graduate and the professor:
+https://youtu.be/Vp570S6Plt8 [Embed]
+--- 21912107
+>>21911920
+Physics is just applied mathematics, chemistry is also just applied mathematics. Everything is just mathematics 
+t. unbiased mathematician
+--- 21912362
+>>21912107
+Mathematics is just applied devotion.
+--- 21912385
+>>21911891
+He must have some rule where he never discusses his work
+--- 21912386
+>>21912107
+Physics wants to be mathematics and leans on it pretty hard. But it never really bridges the cognitive gap.
+--- 21912420
+>>21912362
+--- 21912467
+>>21912420
+no u
+--- 21912819
+>>21911735 (OP)
+What is supposed to be the title? Cormac McCarthy or Stella Maris?
+--- 21913368
+>>21912819
+The book is Cormac McCarthy by Stella Maris
+--- 21913472
+>>21911735 (OP)
+I coomed, topologically.
+--- 21913695
+>>21912385
+his first ex-wife says while they were living in a dairy barn he would get offers from universities to talk about his books (for 2,000 dollars typically) and he would tell them everything that needed to be said was on the page and they would have to eat beans for another night. it was his editor's request when he retired that he finally start doing interviews, but you can tell he's not fond of discussing the books.
+--- 21915132
+The book Gerald Murnane wishes he could write.
+--- 21915138
+>>21915132
+Wut?
+--- 21915752
+>>21912819
+It’s a collection of two separate books actually, one being called “Stella Maris”, the other “Cormac McCarthy”.
+The name of the author is PULITZER PRICE WINNING AUTHOR OF THE ROAD.
+It’s a Native American name
+--- 21915891
+This is not a shot at McCarthy, as I haven't read the book, but I wish non-mathematicians would stop putting the subject on a pedestal. Math is not magical, nor is understanding math unattainable.
+--- 21915896
+>>21915891
+Cope
+--- 21915929
+>>21911735 (OP)
+That meme is the quintessential tranny/reddit/twitter meme and I turned my VPN off just to post that I really think you should at least contemplate suicide tonight.
+--- 21915935
+>>21915891
+Math is a wide field and McCarthy knows by heart the subject he is handling. Look up Topoi.
+--- 21915966
+>>21915896
+Cope? I have an Erdos number of 4.
+--- 21915984
+>>21915935
+Okay? I'm not talking about the book (as I mentioned, I haven't read it yet). I'm talking about people needlessly putting math on a pedestal when they, with a little effort, could grasp concepts that seem mystical (but aren't at all) or far away.
+--- 21916007
+>>21915984
+Base level math is accessible. What about ZFC, Abstract algebra, Topology, category theory, even mathematical logic reveals some absolutely perception challenging concepts (Gödel's Incompleteness theorem one of the most famous among them)? It is the most respected Science for a reason, even if part of the reason is the snobbish fact that most aren't good enough at it.
+--- 21916798
+>>21912386
+lmao you just love to see people on a literature board attempt to speak properly about mathematics and physics.
+--- 21916805
+>>21916798
+I post on /sci/ too.
+--- 21916826
+>>21916805
+and?
+--- 21916946
+>>21916826
+but?
+--- 21917826
+>>21916946
+so?
+--- 21918907
+>>21916007
+NTA but why did you call math a science ? its not
+--- 21918917
+>>21915984
+People put math on a pedestal because it is the opposite of mystical and is based on almost pure reasoning. Mystical mathematics would be numerology etc and that is what people associated with math.
+--- 21918940
+>>21918917
+You are looking at it the wrong way. Even some mathematicians view math as mystical because it reveals possibilities and constructs that are so separated from physical reality yet are able to define/dictate it so accurately. The placeholder term is "beauty of math". Mysticism isn't someone's fantasy, it has its own logic. Maybe it is not digestible to many now, but it is similar to math in that both burrow deep into their constraints of logic to map contours of the world.
+--- 21919093
+>>21915984
+I agree to a large extent. There is a cultural tendency, at least in the US, where being good at or liking math is seen as uncool. Most people can learn basic math if they try. They can learn to *do* calculus problems even. But actually understanding math at the research level I believe is nearly impossible for most people. I studied computer science and did well, but I was absolutely filtered, along with 99% of my class, at a real math class (proof-based real analysis). That kind of thinking requires a special sort of mind.
+--- 21919100
+>>21911735 (OP)
+Are these worth buying/reading? What's the genre? I'm not getting a "feel" of them from the basic premise. Are they NCFOM 2.0: Math & Physics Edition?
+--- 21919101
+>>21919100
+Stella Maris is all dialogue.
+--- 21919106
+>>21919101
+But what's it about? What's the "message"? I've become wary of novels as a timesink as of late and want a better feel of them before I drop 50€.
+--- 21919119
+>>21911735 (OP)
+God damn was it depressing to witness her crumble toward the end. So isolated in this world, convinced only of a solipsistic existence. Why did she tie the red sash? It's a final plea for a world outside her mind—for her to be witnessed. Just heartbreaking.
+--- 21919150
+>>21919106
+Language is a parasite on the subconscious; if you're the supersmartest you become the superdepressedest.
+--- 21919183
+>>21912386
+>Physics wants to be mathematics and leans on it pretty hard. But it never really bridges the cognitive gap.
+mathematics is just a syntax game
+--- 21919202
+>>21919150
+Eh, seems trite desu. I don't even get why people have this notion. There's so, so much we don't know. If I was superultramegagigasmart I'd be glad that I had so many things to do with my life, and only be sad that I wouldn't get the whole picture because I'd eventually have to die. But the whole
+>depressed genius 
+thing never made sense to me. Unironically it's why I like American comic books. The supergenius there are all GigaThads who both have adventures and uncover cosmic secrets. Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, Doctor Doom; I love that type of character, and you basically only find them in comic books and pulps. I don't understand why literature is so in love with taking talent and turning it into something depressing.
+--- 21919228
+>>21919183
+Lmao. Read the book. Real Math isn't done with equations. In topology, not even with numbers. 
+>>21919202
+The books mourn are inability to ever know, or even know that we are right in saying we don't know.
+--- 21919234
+>>21919202
+>If I was superultramegagigasmart I'd be glad that I had so many things to do with my life, and only be sad that I wouldn't get the whole picture because I'd eventually have to die.
+You should really read The Passenger and Stella Maris. McCarthy seems to imply that genius is a physical incurable defect, which is why Bobby is ultimately able to cope with his life while Alicia couldn't. You're are looking from the outside in. The books are written from the inside.
+--- 21919270
+>>21919100
+>>21919202
+>The Passenger
+Among McCarthy's books it's most similar to Suttree. The main character goes here, talks to some people, goes there, talks to some other people. Sometimes these conversations relate to the plot, as much as there is one, and sometimes they're just offered as objects of interest themselves. One such is a ~10 page history of quantum mechanics told humanizingly from the perspective of the personalities involved which apparently filtered many readers. If this is the sort of thing that will make you angry, but you still might want to read the book, you can safely skip that part. Generally, it's a book you can live in. These episodes are funny or intriguing or poignant or even beautiful. You will not be gripped by any plot, but perhaps by the way the protagonist's conditions and memories swirl and collapse, exposing the sources of his grief. And the prose itself is excellent and full of delightful metaphorical invention.
+>Stella Maris
+This is an entirely different type of book from the Passenger. It's much less of a story. Pure dialogue, topics covered include philosophy of mathematics, history of mathematics, solipsism, linguistics, and music. Some flashbacks relevant to the broader story there as well (told through dialogue). It's all somewhat interesting, sometimes frustrating (I'm someone who knows some of this stuff, and the explanations were sometimes of the type *understandable only to those who already understand*). There are shocking bits, and some poignant ones. It's a quick read. Before reading either, I'd recommend checking out his 2017 non-fiction essay the Kekule problem. The idea there is pretty prominent in these books.
+--- 21919483
+>>21919228
+>>21919234
+>>21919270
+I see. Well, it sounds interesting enough phrased like that. I'll surely try them sometime soon. Thanks for taking the time anons.
+--- 21920246
+>>21915891
+>Math is not magical
+dumb materialist. go watch cartoons and jerk off
+--- 21921640
+>>21920246
+define magical

lit/21911925.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,175 @@
+-----
+--- 21911925
+They raise the standard for truth so high, that I'm convinced that only such a thing as a Platonic form or an Aristotelian substance can meet the criteria. 
+However since these entities can't be shown to exist, skepticism seems to be only game in town.
+What are some ways around this?
+--- 21911990
+Further context:
+Gerson argues that Plato and Aristotle held to more or less the same standard of truth, namely that a think can only known if its grasped directly and infallibly by the intellect, rather than indirectly either by the senses or by a step-wise reasoning process, and in order for some object to meet these criteria it has to be simple, immaterial and eternal, possess causal powers and an openness for being known (cognizable or intelligible).
+--- 21912003
+>>21911925 (OP)
+>substance can’t be shown to exist
+You idiot
+--- 21912008
+>>21912003
+Go ahead.
+--- 21912036
+brother of course it can't be 'shown' to exist because that would be trying to prove that which is known through intellect through either the senses or through step-wise reasoning process. you can only be sceptical if you don't make the effort to live the life needed for the activation of intellect and are content only with theorising, or if you preemptively have already decided that the arbiter of existence is your senses or discursive reasoning
+--- 21912090
+>>21911925 (OP)
+simple answer: coherentism instead of foundationalism
+--- 21912152
+>>21911925 (OP)
+The next best bet would be to consider Socrates' autobiographical account in the Phaedo, the "second sailing" he conducts as a safe means to still learn about the beings. Note that in that passage Socrates calls the forms "hypotheses", suppositions about opinions worked out in speech to make sense of what the world might be like if direct access is unavailable. The Parmenides' second half is a worked out example of this (you work out four positive and four negative hypotheses, 1) what x is in itself, 2) what x is in relation to everything else, 3) what everything else is in relation to x, and 4) what everything else is in relation to everything else).
+
+For Aristotle, the equivalent of a "second sailing" would be the dialectical approach to opinions in the Topics. (One could learn a great deal from Aristotle by going through his works and trying to figure out whether the arguments are demonstrative, dialectical, rhetorical enthymemes, or sophistical, according to the works in the Organon + the Rhetoric).
+--- 21913072
+>>21912090
+Say more please
+--- 21913082
+>>21911925 (OP)
+Bro Plato was a protofeminist, stop reading that garbage
+--- 21913154
+>>21913082
+Ah yes, Heraclitus, it’s been centuries. How are you?
+--- 21913236
+>>21913082
+He said those very silly things about women in the Republic but he corrected it in the Timaeus (which is the direct sequel to the Republic):
+>He who lived well would return to his native star, and would there have a blessed existence; but, if he lived ill, he would pass into the nature of a woman, and if he did not then alter his evil ways, into the likeness of some animal, until the reason which was in him reasserted her sway over the elements of fire, air, earth, water, which had engrossed her, and he regained his first and better nature.
+--- 21915108
+bump
+--- 21915115
+>>21911925 (OP)
+Yes, good... Now read Cicero and Sextus Empiricus... and after that, Nagarjuna... he he he
+
+you will believe nothing, and you will be happy
+--- 21916386
+bump
+--- 21916434
+Idealism was the reigning ontology until the scientific revolution, where since it has been shown that all "qualities" are actually just quantities, leading to the unconditional acceptance of materialism in academia.
+/thread
+--- 21916882
+>>21916434
+The statement that Idealism was the reigning ontology until the scientific revolution is a matter of debate among historians of philosophy. While it is true that many ancient and medieval philosophers subscribed to some form of idealism, such as Plato and Plotinus, there were also prominent materialist philosophers, such as Democritus and Epicurus.
+
+Furthermore, it is inaccurate to say that the scientific revolution led to the unconditional acceptance of materialism in academia. While the scientific method does prioritize empirical evidence and quantitative measurements, many scientists and philosophers have continued to hold idealist views, such as the philosopher Immanuel Kant who developed a critical idealism in response to the scientific revolution.
+
+Moreover, the relationship between idealism and materialism is complex, and many contemporary philosophers argue for a more nuanced view that incorporates both idealist and materialist perspectives. Therefore, it is not accurate to make a broad generalization about the dominance of a particular philosophical ontology in academia based on the scientific revolution
+--- 21917298
+>>21916882
+>it is not accurate to make a broad generalization about the dominance of a particular philosophical ontology in academia based on the scientific revolution
+Yes it is
+You pluck out democritus, who btw, like all academics, had a rigorously geometric conception of what an "atom" constitutes. The more spherical the more fiery its elemental composition etc.
+Atom just means "indivisible" anyway, so was a kind of theoretical monism, not any "science" or deduction in the way common to modernity. Epicurus as an atomist inherited this same classical perspective.
+Kant actually was greatly inspired by hume, but only critiqued him in that he did not have a "transcendental" consciousness underlying phenomena.
+>Moreover, the relationship between idealism and materialism is complex
+Only to idealists clinging to poetics.
+Vulgar materialism is certainly a plague, but the content of reality is matter.
+--- 21917303
+All of philosophy has been footnotes to Aristotle.
+Plato is a fucking joke.
+--- 21917364
+>>21911925 (OP)
+> However since these entities can't be shown to exist, skepticism seems to be only game in town.
+>What are some ways around this?
+Realize that only a fool or a madman would be skeptical of the existence of the very consciousness through which they were aware of the concept of doubt.
+--- 21917420
+>>21911925 (OP)
+>since these entities can't be shown to exist, skepticism seems to be only game in town.
+Are you retarded? Did you even read them?
+>>21917364
+--- 21917427
+>>21911925 (OP)
+>What are some ways around this?
+Lower your standard for knowledge?
+--- 21917610
+>>21912008
+Try making a meaningful statement without the concept of substance.
+--- 21917655
+>>21911990
+>simple, immaterial and eternal, possess causal powers and an openness for being known (cognizable or intelligible)
+So in other words Ideal knowledge of an object is, for us, mathematical/geometrical?
+--- 21917671
+>>21917303
+>>21917364
+>>21917420
+i'm glad to read these reasonable comments
+i am tired of skeptics running around with their unabashed ignorance on display
+--- 21918234
+>>21911925 (OP)
+>What are some ways around this?
+
+
+Selftherapize.
+
+Beside, the current philosophical zeitgeist is one of profounding integration & etymoteleological signficance: being a 'minor finder', and cogitating toward the actual enigmas of the universe.
+--- 21918251
+>>21917364
+>>21917671
+Have you ever even read the sceptics? They do not doubt that they experience appearances
+--- 21918309
+>>21918234
+lol, if there's any zeitgeist it's making fun of losers like you who care more about being perceived as interesting by low-iq people than actually even hoping to say something coherent. pathetic inbred
+--- 21918318
+>>21912008
+literally everything you experience is substance. did you even read categories?
+--- 21918323
+>>21918251
+>They do not doubt that they experience appearances
+the post you replied to never stated that they did doubt this
+--- 21918943
+>>21918318
+The account of primary and secondary ousiai in the Categories isn't the same as the account of ousiai in the Metaphysics, the latter of which is actually devoted to the subject while the former is a concession to beginning to reason.
+--- 21918985
+>>21916434
+Actually, Berkeley still hasn't been refuted. People just ignore him and scoff
+--- 21918993
+>>21917298
+Democritus and Hume are the bane of my existence
+--- 21918995
+>>21918985
+True from what I’ve noticed
+--- 21919000
+>>21913236
+This explains societal degeneration so well
+--- 21919039
+>>21911925 (OP)
+Anything that you directly sense is pretty much real because in a well ordered universe why would you be thrown into a world everything is a fabrication of various substances. Because if that were the case then there’s probably a good likelihood that everything is a matter of opinion, including whether you exist or not and could be given life through reification of found knowledge of its very existence. Like Descartes doubted everything until he came to the very subject of himself but what if these could change depending on the mind of yourself or other possible minds? That everything you think could become real through sheer force of will. There is a case to be made of that issue, that people often will things into their life they obsess over, causing them to manifest but most of the time these end up being abstractions and usually don’t appear as tangible matter. Something has to contain a world for concepts like love, hunger, sadness, honor, pride, etc. outside of a world that would make them possible they could not exist. Abstractions must exist in a world where concrete substances do. There’s no hunger outside the universe, no sadness, no joy, no loyalty.
+--- 21919132
+>>21918993
+I'm guessing you are religious
+--- 21919137
+>>21918985
+He's such a small thinker that no one really cares about "immaterialism"
+--- 21919349
+>What are some ways around this?
+It's really simple. Just accept the empiricist Scientific Method. Do not be concerned about the definitions of things. That's for Jews and gays. It's for gays, because that's how you get hundreds of different sexualities and genders, because rather than being concerned with what you do, they are concerned with some kind of identity, completely separate from any action in the world. Same with Jews and gnostic bullshit. Concerned with definitions.
+
+Just take a step back and have another perspective. As long a statement has predictive power, it's valid. Don't try to deconstruct it with asking the definition for everything. Like when I tell you that blacks have a lower IQ than whites. You can test this, we have confirmed this, we can made predictions about the world with this. Only midwits will ask for an exact definition of black and try to deconstruct it with definition-faggotry.
+
+It's as simple as that.
+--- 21919354
+>>21919349
+Thanks BAP. It's like how caring about the sex of the succulent soft body you wanna fuck is for gays...
+--- 21920233
+>>21919137
+He's been gaining some traction lately, it seems. He produced the only form of life-affirming skepticism I'm aware of, and that's pretty cool. Russell's response to it is characteristically impotent. Berkeley also anticipated a lot of later thinkers with his linguistic analysis. Definitely worth reading
+--- 21920534
+>>21911925 (OP)
+Seems this is the problem you're facing, and you're more based for it
+--- 21920586
+>>21911925 (OP)
+>What are some ways around this?
+
+Take your meds to suppress your obvious schizophrenia, then go get drunk and get laid.
+--- 21920838
+>read philosophy and ends up hero worshipping instead of critically thinking about things 
+Maybe you should stick to Harry Potter.
+--- 21921951
+>>21911925 (OP)
+Here's a little video that was just uploaded that you may find somewhat interesting OP. It wont have answers, but you may like it.
+https://youtu.be/jt-9NS--o8Q [Embed]
+--- 21921998
+>>21918309
+>low-iq people
+>hoping to say something coherent

lit/21912357.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,358 @@
+-----
+--- 21912357
+It has become clear thanks to one intelligent and honest anon’s efforts that Gerald Murnane is the only living author worthy of our attention. Discussion of any other contemporary author is clearly a paid shill campaign. Did you know that New York Times has reviewed Murnane? As we all know, NYT is the final voice in literary esteem. 
+
+Let’s have a sober and rational discussion of the only significant novelist of our times
+--- 21912372
+>>21912357 (OP)
+>Did you know that New York Times has reviewed Murnane?
+Literal-whos get reviews. Get back to me when he has got a full monograph.
+--- 21912381
+>>21912357 (OP)
+Kys
+--- 21912382
+>>21912357 (OP)
+Okay, redpill me on Murnane and tell me where to start.
+--- 21912395
+>>21912372
+Murmeme’s monograph was written by a woke hire who also writes about negroes lmao doesn’t really count.
+--- 21912399
+>>21912395
+Please write in sentences.
+--- 21912400
+>>21912357 (OP)
+Man I must be rolling in riches from shilling Solenoid.
+--- 21912410
+>>21912382
+Start with 'The Plains' or his short stories. Pick up 'Inland' when you want to see a lately overrated romanian shitter get completely pwned at """his""" game (all because academic shills don't read actual good writers).
+--- 21912413
+>>21912400
+There is the admittance
+--- 21912414
+>>21912410
+>>21912400
+Is there some artificial rivalry between Cartarescu and Murnane now? Or did one say something about the other?
+--- 21912417
+>>21912413
+Ohhh, here we fucking go again!
+--- 21912418
+>>21912410
+>Inland
+> some reviewers have criticised its use of repetition, lack of clear structure and reliance on writing as a subject matter
+Sounds like shit tbqh post a passage
+--- 21912421
+>>21912414
+Someone made a thread about Solenoid and Murnane fans started shitposting out of nowhere
+--- 21912428
+>>21912421
+>fans
+>s
+--- 21912430
+>>21912421
+Pourquoi?
+--- 21912445
+>>21912414
+No. There’s an autistic anon who spams Murnane and stirs up shit storms consistently in Cartarescu threads. This was an attempt to bait him into a containment thread so he stops shitting up the board. I don’t really care about Murnane but this loser’s sad trolling is completely out of hand.
+--- 21912456
+>>21912418
+>believing wikipedia
+It is a very ambitious and difficult novel. Of course there is pushback by vanilla critics.
+--- 21912459
+>>21912357 (OP)
+Did he really learn Hungarian to read about farmers watering the animals? Because that’s based and good for him but I also don’t give a shit about reading an entire book about that.
+--- 21912460
+>>21912445
+PR shill mad
+--- 21912466
+>>21912459
+It's not about that. All the prose they are giving the Romanian is what Murnane deserves. Half shit mentioned on wikipedia wouldn't even be visible in the book depending on the reader.
+--- 21912478
+>>21912466
+>prose
+--- 21912483
+>>21912466
+Have you even read Solenoid or are you having a mental breakdown?
+--- 21912490
+>>21912466
+You’re either ESL or your brain is so fried from your 24-hour troll session that your language is becoming garbled gibberish. You’re not even typing coherently anymore.
+--- 21912492
+>>21912466
+Why are you being jelly on behalf of someone else?
+--- 21912499
+>>21912357 (OP)
+I'd rather read my fantasy novels.
+--- 21912501
+>>21912478
+>>21912490
+Shitty autocorrect. I meant "all the praise".
+--- 21912506
+>>21912483
+Yes I did and it was shit.
+--- 21912518
+>>21912506
+Elaborate
+--- 21912522
+>>21912357 (OP)
+He's fairly good for a young adult writer.
+--- 21912529
+>>21912518
+It was stinky poopoo diarrhea
+--- 21912536
+>>21912529
+So you haven’t read it? I was expecting a decent critique, not a retarded reply.
+--- 21912565
+>>21912529
+>>21912536
+Our mentally retarded anon has embarrassed himself enough for one day. Leave him to read his Murnane in peace, in the delusion whereby he cannot face the reality that Solenoid is the greatest novel of the 21st century (so far).
+--- 21912614
+>>21912565
+New cope by the PR shill just dropped
+>>21912536
+It is not worth my time to explain such a shit book. Today was an attempt at trying to get back the value for my money.
+--- 21912618
+>>21912614
+Ah, so you’re a poorfag
+--- 21912623
+>>21912618
+Unlike you I don't leech off my parents
+--- 21912659
+>>21912614
+Your opinion is little more than a whine, then.
+--- 21912680
+>>21912623
+I work full-time and have a healthy relationship with my parents.
+--- 21912684
+>>21912680
+And Cartarescu is getting a New York Times monograph. Pull the other one.
+--- 21912710
+>>21912684
+--- 21912725
+>>21912710
+meds
+--- 21912927
+He lives in my town. Ask me anything.
+--- 21912936
+>>21912927
+1. What's your favourite sandwich filling?
+2. What do you think about Mircea Cartarescu?
+--- 21912938
+>>21912927
+Is he as shitty writer as everyone says?
+Does he have a hot wife?
+--- 21913519
+>>21912357 (OP)
+I've read little Murnane so I'd like to critique him based on my lack of knowledge:
+- His work seems to be based on the premise that because his internal life is highly interesting to him it should be highly interesting to everyone else
+- He seems to think that eccentricity is interesting, maybe insightful
+- There's a point where dedicating yourself to the exploration of your eccentricities becomes borderline solipsistic
+- He might reject stories but stories allow the writer to transcend his own self
+- The danger of his approach is making a quasi religion out of your own personal idiosyncrasies and losing the world
+--- 21914316
+>>21913519
+I just want to clarify that although Murnane seems to be writing autobiographical fiction, he really isn't. It is what they are praising the Romanian for, Murnane also begins with himself but splits from memory into imagination. That's his appeal. His fiction is very eccentric and solipsistic, but that's where his talent with prose shines. Over the course of the book, the reader will understand the working of his imagination and connective memory and he has great control over the motifs to repeat and the sound of his prose. Despite his stoic and detached attitude, he is actually a very emotionally resonant writer.
+--- 21914320
+>>21914316
+rent-free
+--- 21914367
+>>21914320
+You are literally a shill. Any off mention of the romanian in un-flattering light makes you seethe. I didn't even criticize him btw.
+--- 21914379
+>>21914367
+"You are literally a shill!", he says, in a thread where you shill your meme writer and mention the NYT to boost credibility. What's funny is that you're talking about MC in an unrelated thread about your idol.
+--- 21914425
+>>21914379
+I am not the OP. I am only replying to the impressions of one anon. You meanwhile are terribly bothered at the Romanian being spoken in less flattering terms.
+--- 21914431
+>>21914425
+You're the one mentioning MC out of nowhere that's why I said rent-free and the you called me a shill lmao come on now.
+--- 21914569
+>>21914431
+How's it out of nowhere? All these papers that are praising his autofiction for the split self and fictional autobiography aspects aren't aware of Murnane, who does the same but better. How the hell is this not relevant to what I am saying? Learn to read, faggot.
+--- 21914582
+>>21914569
+what papers? lol that guy didn't even mention MC. And it's not relevant because you're talking about another author being praised... what does that have to do with anything? Learn to charge for rent in your mind, homo.
+--- 21914754
+Does your throat ever get sore from how hard you suck this man day in and day out? You fucking ruined a Solenoid thread the other day with your insipid faggotry
+--- 21914838
+>>21914769
+Holy shit are you insane
+--- 21914844
+>>21914838
+I should be asking that to you.
+--- 21914848
+>>21914838
+>>21914844
+Are you guys still at it? lol
+--- 21914903
+>>21914769
+Gahdam you ARE insane lmao. You've been shilling that guy for over a day now fucking hell
+--- 21914920
+>>21914903
+Shilling is what you do. I am only speaking the truth.
+--- 21915096
+>>21914769
+OK, but why are you derailing a thread about the guy you like?
+--- 21915105
+>>21915096
+The Romanian shill is derailing the thread. I only replied to some anon's impressions>>21914316
+--- 21915113
+>>21915105
+You needlessly brought up Cartarescu and, assuming you're not clinically retarded which is admittedly a mere assumption, knew exactly what the response to that would be.
+--- 21915176
+>>21915113
+I was not expecting retards to be this mad after 12 whole hours. He must be paying alot to these shills lol.
+--- 21915181
+>>21915176
+Clinically retarded it is then.
+--- 21915182
+>>21915176
+ Beat it ausfag
+--- 21915200
+Any anons fancy a Solenoid read-along?
+--- 21915253
+>>21915200
+Ask the rest of the PR team
+--- 21915262
+>>21915253
+Hey anon, is Cartarescu a good and popular author or is he shilled by a nefarious humanities establishment?
+--- 21915265
+>>21915200
+Yes we should do so. Preferably we hold meetups in person while we throw Murnane books into a firepit to keep us cozy.
+--- 21915267
+>>21915265
+Seething tranny lol
+--- 21915271
+>>21915262
+He is being shilled by an industry plant "avant garde" publisher. They want to manufacture a "great writer" again. True patricians are pushing back.
+--- 21915289
+>>21915271
+Are you sure? I remember reading a positive review of a book of his, "Solenoid", in the New York Times.
+--- 21915300
+>>21915267
+>Derails a thread
+>Makes 2 other threads revolving around the derailed thread
+You are a bit odd aintcha.
+Now, suckle my cock for gracing your thread with a bump. You have shown to be quite proficient at pleasuring men with your mouth.
+--- 21915316
+>>21915271
+>>21915270 →
+--- 21915320
+>>21915300
+All your world revolves either black dicks or blowjobs from men. Seek mental help.
+--- 21915341
+>>21915320
+>as said by the guy who praises a monograph written by niggersuckertron 3000
+rich, now go ahead *unzips, pats head*
+--- 21915365
+>>21912357 (OP)
+I love Solenoid so much bros.
+--- 21915380
+What are some "avant garde" publishers?
+--- 21915387
+I like Murnane, but I hate he is getting turned into a shitpost for spamming. 
+Then again that is the only way to get people here to read anything, so idk.
+--- 21915392
+>>21915387
+I think it turns people away even more.
+--- 21915410
+>>21915392
+It turns fags and midwits away because their feelings get hurt. That's a net positive.
+--- 21915412
+>>21915365
+Then take it up your ass, faggot
+--- 21915414
+>>21915412
+How about we shove The Plains right up your ass
+--- 21915419
+>>21915410
+No, being turned into a shitpost makes it seem like he is on par with Gardner.
+--- 21915432
+>>21915419
+Low IQ midwit
+--- 21915434
+>>21915414
+Plains can't be shoved up somebody's ass idiot. Solenoid will easily fit in there, it's as big as your boyfriend's dick kek.
+--- 21915435
+>>21915432
+Pathetic
+--- 21915462
+>>21915434
+>>21915442 →
+--- 21916202
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91gT68xeDMM [Embed]
+--- 21916243
+>>21915271
+You're retarded. People have been sucking Cartarescu's dick ever since The Unstranslated posted about it. Now since it has been translated in a few languages people started talking about it. There's only been one thread in recent memory, nobody seems to be losing their mind when Gardner's shill army and that fucking literally who podcast spams the board non-stop.
+--- 21916251
+>>21916243
+Then why does he have resort to being published by literal who publishers like Gallimard?
+--- 21916254
+>>21916251
+Gallimard is the most famous literary publisher in France.
+--- 21916258
+>>21916254
+Then why would they publish a literal who like Cartarescu? Your story doesn't make sense.
+--- 21916263
+>>21916243
+>People have been sucking Cartarescu's dick ever since The Unstranslated posted about it.
+The untranslated nigger is the biggest industry plant in the business. His reviews are actual shill proposals for gullible retards. Read his absolute embarrassment of a review of Schattenfroh.
+--- 21916273
+>>21916258
+They publish quality. Any publisher big or small is interested in high quality literature. You can seethe all you want.
+--- 21916275
+>>21916263
+>>21915380
+--- 21916278
+>>21916258
+Random house publishes tons of obscure shit every year. Though it's less than before. France is following in footsteps but still relatively better.
+--- 21916287
+>>21916273
+cope
+--- 21916397
+>>21915380
+Deep vellum. They are also shills
+--- 21916400
+>>21916397
+>>21916377 →
+--- 21916470
+>>21916460
+This is a thread for discussion of the works of Gerald Murnane.
+--- 21916474
+>>21916460
+meds
+--- 21918053
+>>21912382
+does anyone not mentally ill want to answer this?
+--- 21918063
+>>21918053
+No
+--- 21918760
+are there any aussie writers who don't just write about
+muh desolate outback
+muh boring upbringing
+muh abo encounters
+
+i've only read picnic at hanging rock and it was pretty good. movie was nice too
+--- 21918768
+>>21918760
+--- 21919635
+>>21915271
+Rather ironic that all the Solenoid discussions pop up now that the book is back in print.
+--- 21919637
+>>21919635
+Exactly PR shill
+--- 21919688
+>>21919635
+if you're alanis morissette maybe
+--- 21921062
+I hope murnane becomes the jefre cantu-ledesma of /lit/. a retarded shill attempt which eventually tranforms into a board-wide collective shitposting
+--- 21921070
+>>21919688
+lol
+--- 21921078
+>>21916243
+ Cartarescu was popular in other countries before the English publication
+--- 21921505
+>>21921062
+--- 21921508
+>>21921505

lit/21912608.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,814 @@
+-----
+--- 21912608
+Haven't had one of these in awhile. Post your verses.
+--- 21912922
+Critiques appreciated
+--- 21912960
+Wrote this before going to sleep the other night.
+
+A prayer in a cold cabin as the snow falls. 
+
+i languor among many lacquered toys,
+lazily resting with my little trinkets,
+the soldier sword, the android, and my joy;
+a black book so I, sleepless, am not dreamless. 
+
+the lady and the drunkard, dog and prince. 
+the fight, the pride, the terror of the night,
+passing each page, these past worlds, this imprint,
+my eyes are straining, but are filled with light.
+
+though I am cold, I shall be warm again,
+this wood, kindling each moment with the heat,
+memories, flakes of fire drawn once again,
+and briefly if I look deeply, I see;
+
+peace. peace and deeper peace, of men my friends, 
+release to each, in evry breath of wind,
+“we will return” I know the dead are blessed, 
+for even now they see the secret shrine.
+
+that seat of thine, where see the blind, the face,
+you, who is known as “he” and as “who is”
+who In the womb had whispered my true name,
+and had given me to worlds of new-bliss.
+
+do this now for me, secret one, my gem,
+whose name’s echo is emrold mountains piled, 
+whose name is water from a fountain mild,
+i ask, do not leave, sweetest love, my friend.
+--- 21913630
+Lilacs are
+Purple and lilies
+Are white. Reply
+To this post or
+Else your mother
+Will die in
+Her sleep
+Tonight.
+--- 21913852
+>>21912608 (OP)
+Roses are red
+Violets are blue
+OP is a faggot
+Nigger and Jew
+--- 21913949
+>>21912922
+>prognosticating
+--- 21915045
+my love is a chain
+that wraps up my prisoner
+your heart that belongs to me
+no, I wont let it go.
+they'll stay until you give in
+wrap all your body, all your heart 
+and make you desire your master
+that I take you.
+--- 21915072
+>>21913852
+im stealing this
+--- 21915830
+The Primeval Forest
+
+the walk among the meadows was coming to an end
+as all things are supposed to be 
+and you turned to me and said:
+the clouds are gathering my love
+and lest the darkness comes too early 
+and finds us unprepared in the undergrowth
+and too deep in those old woods, too deep
+and finds us in the primeval woodlands 
+its better to head back home now.
+
+but where is home I asked you then
+and i stood stuttering trying to articulate 
+to articulate what i was saying
+lost in my thoughts lost in those woods
+those primeval forests that stretch forever
+those endless waves of uncut nature 
+those endless waves of needless violence 
+not red yet not bloodied yet not penetrated
+and i stood speechless and unnerved 
+
+we went away you and me
+and i have loved you deeply and still am 
+and we have never again seen each other 
+and between us now and then was stretching 
+still the same old sprawling woods 
+the same old woods and forests and savageries
+the same old questions and silences 
+the same old violence
+
+We never left the primeval forest, didnt we?
+We still are lost
+We never left.
+--- 21916061
+>>21912922
+I don't understand why the last five lines are like that. 
+>>21912960
+>emrold
+I like this spelling. In the last thread, you talked about how accentual verse worked with tripodic substitutions if feet remained equivalent, but what about pyrrhics swapped in? Example:
+
+To1 de1/part4 from1/ a1 world4/ of1 green4/ and1 grain4/
+And1 each2 pass4/ through1 tur4/bid1 wa4/ters1 burns4/ the1 brain4/
+
+Clearly, line 1 lacks a beat but retains the requisite feet. Does it feel ok?
+--- 21916065
+>>21912960
+languor, lacquered ,lazily
+Sorry this flows like a molasses list of things. Symbolism is like salt, you can't sprinkler it everywhere
+--- 21916074
+>>21912608 (OP)
+quick embers burn when i’m with you. fast, fleeting feelings that remind me of my past. i love you, but i cannot say it for it would fall under the world of “taboo”. however, when i’m not with you, i feel as if my heart had been punctured by thousands of cupid’s arrows. your embrace can save lives, but most importantly, it saved mine. but hollow.
+--- 21916079
+>>21912608 (OP)
+I posted one I wrote in the last thread and it was the most generic one in there even though there was plenty of wordplay and other poetic devices. I don't write poetry regularly, that was pretty much a one time thing for me, but either way you guys are really good at this.
+--- 21916123
+Is substack anon here? I wanted to ask him what using the platform was like
+--- 21916231
+>>21912960
+>>21916061
+It might be easier to read if I rewrite line 2 so that the anapest is clear. 
+
+
+To1 de1/part4 from1/ a1 world4/ of1 green4/ and1 grain4/
+And1 pass4/ through1 the1 tur4/bid1 pond4/ of1 shame4/ and1 scorn4/
+--- 21916246
+Sink white fangs in the throat of Life,
+Lap up the red that gushes
+In the cold dark gloom of the bare black stones,
+In the gorge where the black wind rushes.
+
+Slink where the titan boulders poise
+And the chasms grind thereunder,
+Over the mountains black and bare
+In the teeth of the brooding thunder.
+
+Why should we wish for the fertile fields,
+Valley and crystal fountain?
+This is our doom - the hunger trail,
+The wolf - and the storm-stalked mountain.
+
+Over us stalk the bellowing gods
+Where the dusk and the twilight sever;
+Under their iron goatish hoofs
+They crunch our skulls forever.
+
+Mercy and hope and pity - all,
+Bubbles the black crags sunder;
+Hunger is all the gods have left
+And the death that lurks thereunder.
+
+Glut mad fangs in the blood of Life
+To slake the thirst past sating,
+Before the blind worms mouth our bones
+And the vulture's beak is grating.
+--- 21916269
+>THAT'S THE DREAM
+
+That's the dream I'm praying for
+that something wonderful will happen,
+that it must happen –
+that time will open up
+that the heart should open
+that doors should open
+that the rock will open
+that springs should burst -
+that the dream will open,
+that I will slip in one morning
+on a field I have not known about.
+--- 21916414
+>>21915830
+LOL
+--- 21916727
+>>21916061
+Of course and let me actually show you an example from Milton where he does an accentual line among his normative lines. (Note, while pyrrhic feet being added is fine, as the example shows, you still want the overall amount of stresses to be the same, Coleridge also has examples, if I have time I’ll pull some up.)
+
+Lines are from L'Allegro
+
+
+And by men, heart-easing Mirth, 
+Whom lovely Venus at a birth 
+With two sister Graces more 
+To Ivy-crowned Bacchus bore; 
+
+and by/MEN HEART/EAS-ing/MIRTH
+whom LOVE/ly VEEN/us AT/ a BIRTH 
+with TWO/SIS-ter/GRACE-is/MORE
+to I/vee CROWNED/BACC-us/BORE
+
+Notice how his pyrrhic is a Double iamb but he immediately is following this with a trochee and then an extra syllable, this is fine because there is still enough balance to maintain the rhythm, we can see what you’re trying to do in Coleridge and Rossetti but the difficulty isn’t that it doesn’t work; it just reverts to an anapestic rhythm.
+
+to de PART/ from a WORLD/ of GREEN/and GRAIN
+and each PASS/through TUR/bid WAT/ers BURNS/the BRAIN
+
+so while it’s fine, you must be conscious that you’re just doing the aforementioned anapestic technique, I have experiments where I try to push these further, let me grab an example.
+
+shake sepulcher of my soul, raise shade passed,
+stitched sackcloth were thou, then sewn, gateway past,
+state-strained, for by these each stain made base-black,
+same-satan thou are then, strayed, mazed, bade-back, 
+
+SHAKE SEP/ul-chur/ of my/ SOUL RAISE/ SHADE PASSED 
+
+STITCHED SACK/cloth were/thou then/ SEWN GATE/WAY PAST
+
+STATE-STRAINED/for by/ these each/ STAIN MADE/BASE BLACK 
+
+SAME SAY/tan thou/ are then/ STRAYED MAZED/BADE BACK
+
+imo you can still hear a rhythm since the beginning is a double trochee prior to the pyrrhic ending with the dispondee, meaning there is still a kind of coherent flow logical to an iambic pentameter pattern. As long as you can stretch and keep the link to the original pattern, you’ll find many of the great poets do extreme subs not unlike what’s being done above or by Milton.
+--- 21916733
+>>21916065
+Idunno I don’t think it’s q question of symbolism, I think the poem is over sentimental and referring to precisely things that aren’t vast enough symbols, too hyper personal, as for the kind of tired molasses, I feel mixed in this. On one hand I wrote it while drowsy going off to sleep and wanted to put the feelings of that moment in, so that’s a good thing, but on the other hand, if it isn’t enjoyable it simply isn’t enjoyable which is a failure, though I still like the alliteration, thanks for your thoughts anon.
+
+
+In a bit I’ll critique some verses
+--- 21916741
+I spotted a catenary,
+Suggested by light.
+A slack thread hiding,
+Just out of plain sight.
+
+From bough to green ground,
+Some spider spun it there.
+He's long gone and left it here,
+So I can stop and stare.
+--- 21916743
+>>21912608 (OP)
+>tfw no two-colored eyed poet gf
+It’s not fair, bros
+--- 21916747
+>>21916743
+please kill yourself
+--- 21916764
+>>21916747
+Nah
+--- 21916825
+>>21912922
+Feeling mixed about the poem, in general I like the rhyme/assonance, the theme and opening are both pretty meh, nothing special, beginning with darling just feels like filler, the use of more “technical” register of speech is a difficult and often bad choice because it often clashes with the normal register that’s gonna pervade the rest of the poem as well as a bad contrast to the subject matter.
+
+For example “Astral” has taken too much poetic and general meaning to be efficiently used in this context, your lack of terminology knowledge comes through on the third when it resorts to a very simple language, earthy days and rascal again, just don’t seem appropriate, not even in a “I’ll end the poem in a very different way to draw attention to it” way. 
+
+But for all this complaint, I think there’s a positive ideal here that with enough practice can become pretty good, if exercised more.
+--- 21916869
+>>21916727
+Okay, this is interesting. I read these differently.
+
+
+and by MEN/ HEARTeas/-ing MIRTH/
+whom LOVE/ly VEEN/us AT/ a BIRTH
+(headless) with2 TWO3 SIS4/ter GRA/ces MORE/
+to I/vee CROWN/ed BACC-us BORE/
+
+& I read gateway as GATEway. Also I read:
+
+
+STATE-STRAINED/for BY/ these1 each2/ STAIN3 MADE4/BASE3 BLACK4/ (think Milton's "bog, fen," line)
+--- 21916927
+>>21916869
+Yep that’s normal, these obscurities can only be remediated by study of the broader stanza, if isolated I would argue you could scan my line as
+
+stitched sackcloth were thou, then sewn, gateway past
+
+stitched SACK/cloth WERE/ thou then/SOWN GATE/way PASSED
+
+this is on account that since you’re still dancing around the normal iambic pentameter pattern you formulate lines that seem normally metrical except when read in the context of other lines written in an identical way, this establishing its own rhythm, notice how it sounds different if you say just one of the lines vs saying all four 
+
+Without ranting about my own experiments, I actually have a meter I’ve developed with play with this replication-obscurity musicality thing.
+
+And while I understand your scansion of crowned as crown-ed, I’ve actually studied these specific lines due to finding them obscure on my own time and everything I’ve read says if this was supposed to be crown-Ed, it would have to be written Crownèd, and this obscurity in his meter has been studied since there’s a large body of work analyzing Milton’s meter in general.
+
+I would argue also that the intent is a double iamb on the first line because why does your anapest immediately receive another stress, the double iamb is not an obscure technique but an old one. 
+
+But I feel ya, at points of metrical manipulation the feet break apart and mix/mingle with each other, Milton specifically in Samson specifically the choir portions endeavors to create these meter/feet breaking lines due to their difficulty creating a type of counter-point effect, hopkins studied this and tries to apply it also.
+--- 21916997
+from last thread
+--- 21917384
+>>21916997
+Nice.
+>>21916927
+>I would argue also that the intent is a double iamb on the first line because why does your anapest immediately receive another stress, the double iamb is not an obscure technique but an old one.
+What does this refer to exactly?
+
+Also, I still do not hear how your poem meets your reading but not mine. Unless you really jerk gateway.
+
+In John Milton's poem, do you mean to say that the first line has its tail cut off?
+--- 21917424
+>>21912922
+ABCB is 5'11"
+ABAB is 6'0"
+--- 21917446
+>>21917384
+I am referring to 
+
+and by MEN/ HEARTeas/-ing MIRTH/
+
+you’re reading the first foot as an anapest when it’s imo clearly a double iamb 
+
+> Also, I still do not hear how your poem meets your reading but not mine. Unless you really jerk gateway.
+
+My intent was that the final would be all stressed, gateway works with this imo because it, like “earthquake” is, if you actually say the word outloud, naturally a spondee you don’t say GATE-way really, you don’t say gate-WAY, you say both with a bit of speed and equal accent, “GATEWAY” 
+
+In an attempt to emphasis the matching stress and to make more ornate those lines, I’ve used the following pattern.
+
+soul, raise shade passed,
+ sewn, gateway past,
+ stain made base-black,
+ strayed, mazed, bade-back, 
+
+The first word always having an S and forming two assonance couplets, the second and third syllable always having the “ay” assonance and in the final two lines alliterating between both lines, the final syllable always being the ipa æ vowel and again, having couplet alliteration, my intent was that this would both be more ornate, and emphasize the heavy stresses intended.
+--- 21917586
+>>21912960
+I find the rhythm very interesting. Sometimes certain sounds end up in a similar unit in the line as before. The first stanza after the first line seemed to bring up ideas about both the wonders of childish egocentrism, but also the dreams of others as found in the object of the book. 
+For a moment the second tetrastich (which encompasses the dream world of stories) seems to almost slowly revert back into a more familiar meter, after the first line metamorphoses from an initial iamb into three unstressed syllables back into iambs (with a flux again at the third line with a trochee). A more "English" line seems to be in the fourth and final line of that stanza, reminiscent of "myriads though bright." 
+But this all dissipates once the cold of the body chills the speaker. I'm not sure if this is trying to make a distinction between the body and the psyche, the Apollonian and the Dionysian. It then delves into the heat and fuel of memories, but there is some ambiguity whether this is in the book, i.e., the thoughts of other men, or whether it is the internal memory, which is perhaps already germinated with the aforementioned poetic memory. 
+Next, there is the revelation of the world of dead authors who in their spiritual pantheon may arise from a heaven, or even an underworld. This is complemented by the second-to-last stanza which reminds me somewhat of the Gnostic writings. Although you are obviously going for something a bit more Godly, I do think the negative inverse of this would be Sophia speaking the name of Yldabaoth who in his arrogance believed it to be the "true name" of a creator. 
+Again, the last stanza evokes religious symbolism, but this time it is more theophany. I believe the 'reversion' or better yet 'transcendence' to a traditional ABBA structure in this tetrastich shows the unity and oneness of art as devotional. 
+I wanted to ask a question. Do you believe mimicry in poetry is important before one can be original, if ever we are original?
+--- 21917622
+I wrote a couplet in hexameter last night which I wanted to post here but I slept on it and reworked it. There is intentionally a hanging unstressed syllable at the end, since I believe this openness allows for the lingering of sound. The near rhyme mightn't work as well as my original, but I hope it sounds okay.
+>Life After Death
+The funereal bells begin to toll so sullen
+As libations of bees are mulled with swollen pollen
+--- 21917691
+>>21917446
+If it is a double iamb, then what about the rest of it? Earthquake is a trochee just like horseman. Compound nouns emphasize the first noun whereas compound adjectives like red-hot emphasize the second adjective. At least this is what I have learned. Also, I do not think that alliteration would emphasize the stress. That's why in Anglo-Saxon alliterative poetry they tried to alliterate on the stressed syllable.
+--- 21917697
+>>21917586
+Thanks for the read and analysis anon! You’re pretty close, this poem is meant to be a more relaxed than my serious verse, which isn’t to say it isn’t under the techniques I prefer, it’s just in modes I’m very comfortable with. 
+
+the rhythm is based on a mixture of my study of hopkins, Swinburne, Milton, linguistics and rap, but designed to still fit in a very sound basis in normal iambic pentameter. To give a quick scansion of the first stanza to show what I mean.
+
+i languor among many lacquered toys,
+lazily resting with my little trinkets,
+the soldier sword, the android, and my joy;
+a black book so I, sleepless, am not dreamless. 
+
+
+i LANG/er a/MONG MEN/y LACK/ered 
+LAY-zuh/lee REST/ing WITH/my LITT/le TRINK/ets 
+the SOWL/jer SWORD/ the AND/droid AND/ my JOY
+a BLACK/BOOK so/i SLEEP/less AM/not DREAM/less 
+
+It’s the same type of trochaic subs, allowable feminine endings, relational weight and so forth you’d find in normative Elizabethan verse, I just am abusing it in a way because I believe all of the tricks in meter produce their own unique musicality that sounds, after a manner, wild, drifting, a kind of life impulse that isn’t perfect. i play with this by replicating the exact same arrangement to create pseudo perfection or revert to a very strict mechanical iambic to imply perfection/ornate ceremonial beauty.
+
+> the thoughts of other men, or whether it is the internal memory, which is perhaps already germinated with the aforementioned poetic memory.
+
+Both, this poem is an attempt at the sentimental style and, being in favor of double meanings and entendre, I figure I can uplift the lines by making them refer at once to real characters in my life but also stereotypical book characters, and this kind of bleed is reminiscent to a very important effect that books have, staining your qualia to uplift it, I’ve found often that if I read a spectacular poem such as about a childhood memory or about a forest, when I experience that same thing myself, there is a subtle kind of blending of both that occurs.
+
+The cold and flame aren’t a Dionysian Apollonian dichotomy but refer to a much bigger dichotomy that I work through in a lot of other poems and I’ve built a rather large myth of, but to be brief, sin and melancholy and also the apophatic means of knowing god are within the ice. 
+All force and energy, all cataphatic knowing, all satisfaction and violence is in the fire, again without over ranting in my own autism, fire reflecting in ice and ice revealing fire are macro images in longer and shorter poems I’ve written. 
+
+Cont
+--- 21917702
+>>21917697
+But this fire is why there’s a gradual turn, the flake of fire turning into the katabactic fire, which allows the final “turn” from the little sentimental human emotions and himself, into the great flame, thus the rhyme scheme being disrupted.
+
+ (I should note, I am actually mostly rhyming it’s just utilizing various considerations and tricks gained from linguistic study and rap. For example, trinket and dreamless, when the short i vowel is followed by “nk” it actually created a verbal illusion that replicates the long “ee” sound, thus “trink” and “dream” still have perfect assonance, and trinket is followed by a normal short i vowel, the less of “dreamless” has three optional pronunciations, the Schwa, the Open-mid front unrounded vowel aka the short e in “breath” and “men” OR as is actually very common in colloquial speech, the short “i” vowel. )
+
+But yes it’s disrupted when the turn to god occurs, this is respected by the short vowel i, being replaced with the long diphthong “I”/eye, thus why shrine is rhymed in that position, for this is a turning from the empirical ego of the individual man, to the transcendental ego which never dwells in the shrine of god in a perichoretic nondual off, will elaborate in next post further.
+--- 21917796
+Her Name is Kikuri
+
+She smiled, then no more a hurtful winter
+There could never be trembling again
+Her humor brought tremendous laughter
+She sang and cured every single pain
+
+I quite remember: her name is Kikuri
+She throwed every single misery.
+--- 21917862
+>>21917691
+> learned
+
+It’s best to go by ear here, in reality it just isn’t said differently, as for the alliterative stresses of Anglo poetry, I say it goes both ways and they both work together, alliteration creates a sense of force and speed, just as stressing produces force.
+
+>>21917586
+> Do you believe mimicry in poetry is important before one can be original, if ever we are original?
+
+On this, I believe all art without exception is an act of recombination of information/data and that originality shouldn’t be an ideal, perfection in harmonization should be. And I fully agree with the ancients that the key to refining any art is to study the masters and to conjoin their styles after you’ve studied and mastered them. I believe you can add your own aesthetic theories and more importantly you can have your own vision, but this vision and theory is still going to have its root in the same base material we see, the same phenomenological components essential to the human conscious, the same wordblocks, the same range of rhetorical tools and so forth. It isn’t a thing to have shame in, it’s a great sharing and a task the end of which, is a vision of all possible knowledge correlated. To elaborate in depth would take very long, instead heres an entire essay I wrote as an introduction to a poetry book which is coming out soon, I explain in depth my take in the relationship of computation, recombination and knowledge to God, and give platonic, Christian and tantrik justifications for my takes.
+
+https://pastebin.com/un9sgQab
+--- 21917910
+Can't post the full thing here
+here's an excerpt
+
+Silent he stood, and more than human seemed,
+As on his scowling eye the full-moon beamed.
+Starting the Leech awaits his stern command; 
+Slow to the courser points his waving hand. 
+Dismayed she shrinks her arm the stranger grasps, 
+Mounts the proud steed, and firm her body clasps.
+She shrieks ! but lo ! a dagger at her breast 
+Instant the struggling sounds of fear repressed.
+Around her eyes his murky vest he throws,
+And spurs impetuous o'er the scattered snows ; 
+Loud ring the stones beneath his courser's feet,
+ And echo dies along the distant street.
+
+Now, downward shooting to the rock's deep base,
+Headlong descends the steed's unbridled pace, 
+His thundering hoofs the craggy passage spurn, 
+Behind, a fainter sound, the woods return;
+And now, unbroken by o'ershadowing trees, 
+Full o'er the wild moor bursts the eddying breezs. 
+Now swifter still, and swifter as they speed,
+The vales afar, and lessening hills recede ; 
+Up the rough steep the panting courser strains,
+Or bounds resistless o'er the level plains.
+Long through the lonely night's unvarying hours
+The fields he crosses, and the forest scours;
+ No voice, no sound, his silent course arrests, 
+Save where the screech-owls hover round their nests ; 
+Or to their shrouds, from pain and penance borne,
+Returning spirits speak the rising morn; 
+Droop as they pass, and with prophetic groan, 
+Bewail impending sorrows not their own.
+
+Keen blows the gale, a barren heath they cross,
+Light flies the courser o'er the yielding moss;
+Round the bleak wold he winds his circling way,
+Snuffs the fresh breeze, and vents the joyful neigh; 
+Deep sink his steps amid the waste of snows, 
+And slackening speed proclaims the journey's close. 
+They stop the stranger lifts his sable hood-
+Fast by the moor a lonely mansion stood; 
+Cheerless it stood ! a melancholy shade
+Its mouldering front, and rifted walls arrayed; 
+Barred were the gates, the shattered casements closed,
+And brooding horror on its site reposed; 
+No tree o'erhung the uncultivated ground,
+No trace of labour, nor of life around.
+--- 21917923
+>>21917702
+I do not see how it is a verbal illusion. It feels like that I am pronouncing trinket the same way I would pronounced tree.
+>>21917862
+I understand that the ear comes before the conception, but what I read still seems correct. Do you have any opinions on the differential qualities of consonants before and after vowels? Is there anything remarkable about the v in Victor as opposed to have, for example? Any opinions on consonants and vowels in general from you would be interesting.
+--- 21917936
+>>21917910
+I like lessening but recede seems redundant. Perhaps choose one.
+--- 21917969
+>>21917862
+Thanks for that answer. I have been reading through the introduction and it is quite interesting. Your ideas remind me somewhat of the Third Critique although I think most philosophy of art remains somewhat similar to his aesthetics, since it's about the same sort of topic.
+--- 21917980
+>>21917923
+>I do not see how it is a verbal illusion. It feels like that I am pronouncing trinket the same way I would pronounced tree.
+
+Let me clarify, by verbal illusion I mean to say, the actual sound is the same which is the illusionary part, but the actual placement of tongue and how the breath is being moved while approximate to the ee sound isn’t actually identical, it’s just very very close. This also works with “Ing” so ring, king, sing, etc all have this subtle effect, it’s part of why “king and queen” sounds so perfect.
+
+>>21917923
+It’s a really broad topic, something that should be studied is the tradition of Dán Díreach/Irish syllabic verse, which has tables of consonance types and rules, of which, are logical when thought of, so for example, “p” and “b” and even “v” alliteration with each other in most languages, in Hebrew for example v and B is said so similar they are almost interchangeable. these should also be studied imo with the French rules of rhyme-types.
+
+But on the question of “Victor “ and “have” the major difference is placement of the consonant, since V comes first it’s the loudest, but even when the sound is at the very very end of the word, it can still have a tangible effect, here is a form of consonant writing which I believe I’ve invented, which I believe demonstrates that there is still musicality even in the end and unstressed consonant.
+
+stones shall leap precipice edge, 
+
+stoneS ShalL LeaP PrecipicE Edge, 
+
+Or a whole verse in that manner. 
+
+Winds softly Yawning, Gust tears summit 
+Talus, slammed down near russet topsoil,
+Lungs slyphine earth heaved, dropping plummet! 
+Tumbling gravel leaps, set turmoil!
+Lunging gaps, springing galant through hot 
+Terrain, nomes slope-enclosed dash hastful,
+Lamently Yelp; pebbles sadly caught,
+Throb bob boulders smashing; grift thudful
+Lapis slabs; shattered dust twinkles shine,
+Every yowl lauds sabaoth’s stones;
+Sang, singing grimly, yon nature’s shrine
+Earthen, not tired! damn not tomb bones! 
+Splendor rocks some early, yet the eye
+External learns secrets, seen nigh.
+
+But yeah these are yuuuge subjects.
+--- 21918027
+>>21917969
+You should read Schiller, his aesthetic letters are basically him reading Kant’s aesthetics and trying to take it further, schiller’s why you’re seeing a lot of Kant.
+--- 21918115
+>>21917980
+I think I understand what you mean because I just tried to pronounce ring with a short I, but I think I naturally pronounce it with an ee. The alliteration of the Irish sounds similar to my own opinions except instead of audio effect eight is a tacit one. The inflection of the plural nouns in my dialect sounds like a Z, but I understand how are gluing words together. It's a bit forced but I have considered how one might use it. I am not sure how I would orthographically convey it though. One thing I have noticed that I will mention to you is that if you have a stressed syllable beginning with a vowel preceded by a consonant other than the ones that stop like T it will carry the ultimate consonant over. For example:
+The sheep now shorn are clean as new fresh air.
+It sounds a bit like share, thus it functions as a workaround for alliterative purposes.
+--- 21918130
+Mind that I'm ESL and this is a translation.
+
+The faded wreath of anguish has remained above the head
+And wisps of dust that bloom upon the chest.
+The whole white world for me grows alien and dead,
+As I feel how the heat diminishes around.
+
+I only know for sure that my past hides the best
+That has been taken from me by the run of time.
+But was it really not enough to burn down to the ground
+By resurrecting the dead heart on the bends of arms?
+
+How much more blood will be enough to pay for dime
+Of snow to step against the course and quit
+By turning back the irreversible clock arms,
+Reviving dips of eyes at least till dawn?
+
+Oh give me back my life, if only for a bit.
+As for the umpteenth time is gnawing on my bones
+That sickeningly dim familiar light
+That's followed by the endless wheel of sun —
+
+The cursed jailer chasing after dark;
+For way too many years will last this rite,
+Until the matter will be irreversibly undone
+After revolving round its final frigid arc.
+
+But only in embrace of silken rest
+The death of time will be witnessed by the one.
+Only through needles now can dreams become my guests
+In the bright flashes of a blazing summerfire.
+
+No matter how much more blood will be gone
+To satisfy its carnivorous hunger —
+My living yesterday is all that I require
+To be reborn anew,
+
+Where cleansing ecstasy still makes me younger,
+Unleashing the coal hammer on rib cage
+Without fear of shattering the heart askew.
+But even if my veins still held the stuff,
+
+A diamond from a coal I can not swage.
+(Which anyway a known around sly
+No matter what can always scuff).
+As for this snow, it fuels its own gas
+
+By turning everything around you into blight;
+For way too long it licked my eyes like glass,
+Grinding my fingers in insane cathartic spree,
+And sent me in one coffin with the night to rest
+
+On the first peaks into the crematorium of morning.
+And now, all that the Ether's grandson left to me
+In memory of self — the emptiness.
+Here will I stay to watch the comets dress
+
+Their tails in the embrace of fullmoon splinter,
+As my already agonizing heart
+Has been pumping and flooding the dark
+With more, ever more blood to the god of the winter.
+--- 21918261
+Jannie you can ban me, but I'll always be back
+I do not share your love for homos and blacks
+My posts are a force and to move mountain and sea
+And lads never forget, that they do it for -ACK
+--- 21918388
+>>21918261
+So, fair anon reminds the board with posts
+And jannies dilate over his decree,
+“The Admins suck upon the slime of roasts,
+Remember jannies do the job for free! “
+--- 21918576
+The tale begins with Athens, land of knowledge and might
+Leaders of the Greeks under the big cheese Agamemnon’s knight
+Brothers Nireus and Hippocoon taggin’ along
+With young bloods like Antiphates, Demarchus, and strong Jason song
+Riding dirty with those Phaeacian riders
+Whose island once welcomed lost seaman Odysseus, minder
+But these are only minor notes in this grand symphony
+Where ships arrive to set up camp for victory
+
+Phaleros leads the Boulomenian elite crew
+To fight beside those Troezenians true
+Bringing reinforcements from Corinth and brave men of Potidaea
+Hear 'em scream "Today we make a name, won't go unknown" like OJ Simpson freeeee
+
+Mycenae, Orneusa, Graia: lines drawn clear
+Our boys on horseback ready for fear, with gears and spears
+Majestic ships mooring one by one, not just an art display
+
+Then enter prodigal Protesilaus – first Greek on sand
+Proving worth despite Hera’s meddlin’ hand
+Casualties rise, battles thick like fog
+And Protesi steps up for some “gimme that action” dough
+He shows the Trojans hell when he takes to the swordplay
+Stabbing Palamedes and shakin’ assays, damn
+What kind of world’s this if our best die young? That’s raw and insane
+Like Mike Brown, Tamir Rice – Black lives do matter, senpai, remember their pain
+--- 21918581
+Okay, let me give ya my take on this Troy situation
+Just imagine ancient Greece was like modern-day Compton
+Parents cuttin' lose kids so fast they got ADHD
+Meanwhile, suitors tryin' to holla at Helen's rich ass HDTV screenplay
+Young prince Paris can't resist her charms like Lil' Kim and Biggie VHS
+The city boils overnight, folks gettin' rowdy, feisty, wild as bees
+The council makes calls to all the Greek hoods with the best defense
+Agamemnon's playin' quarterback, coordinatin' lines like Coach Belichick
+Battlin' brutes such as Patroclus, Ajax, Diomedes, or Thracian Acestes quickness
+They pack a punch like heavyweight champs Ali or Foreman, undefeated
+
+Each clan brings its arsenal to set up shop, then deployin' weapons galore
+Spears, shields, helmets, armor – every corner's equipped to explore
+Men of the sea ain't no slouch neither; they bring firepower, no need to worry
+Think AK-47s, flame throwers, explosives – chaos reigning ever so hurry
+Witness gods interferin', whisperin' plots behind closed doors with secret signs
+Zeus puts his foot down: “No more divine aid, you deal with your own designs!”
+Gods watch like NFL refs, callin' rules but let the men decide on fate
+The battle gets gnarly, brutha; death becomes a new type of weight debate
+
+Some leaders get murked like Big L, Big Pun, Nipsey Hussle, or Kendrick's friend Slauson Mac
+Bromance between Achilles and Prince Patrollaus, bondin' tight like Outlawz
+Love triangles twistin' minds – oh how drama never ends within our lands
+Drankin' ambrosia, havin' fun tonight 'til mornin' breaks through clouds and skylines
+Who will win this civil war between east and west like Bloods versus Piru Crips?
+Only the dead will know their secrets; they rest until Judgment Day arrives. So hold tight!
+--- 21918592
+>>21918581
+I know it’s supposed to be humorous but it didn’t make it any easier, if you want better attempts at this Kxng crooked has multiple attempts that work out okay.
+
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c3Ie40Trfg&pp=ygUdS3huZyBjcm9va2VkIGFnZSBvZiBla2xtcGlyZXM%3D [Embed] (skip the first verse since he’s not doing it.)
+
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38Qf8jMMDhc&pp=ygUWa3huZyBjcm9va2VkIGJhY2tzdGFnZQ%3D%3D [Embed]
+--- 21918597
+>>21918592
+It's a damn good day for funeral games
+Niggaz come hard for Patrokles fame
+Crowds jammin' on corners
+Shouts get echoes all throughout Troy's boundaries
+Get down, let me see those moves today
+Make 'em sick, make 'em stay away
+We pay respects while sippin', drinks all poured like liquid gold
+Pat on the back and head nod for the brother who once took control
+Yeaah, it's that time, ain't nobody stoppin' us now
+Come around, witness some ill skills displayed
+No limit for our memory stays
+Patrokles name gets glorified in ways that people still pray
+Inspiration breeds motivations unseen by anyone
+Let everyone know that legends never truly die, they multiply like DNA strands, comrades
+That's how we roll for Patrokles in Troy, no lies!
+--- 21918806
+>>21918388
+wow tough scene for jannies out there, they're getting bodied tonight
+--- 21918871
+>>21918806
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDl9ZMfj6aE [Embed]
+Jannie, are you okay? 
+Jannie, are you okay?
+Are you okay, Jannie?
+--- 21920219
+Bump
+--- 21920388
+>>21918130
+What's your first language? Post the original.
+--- 21920701
+>>21917936
+why?
+Appalled the Leech surveys the solemn scene, 
+But watches chief her guide's mysterious mien.
+He with fierce stride, and stern expressive look,
+Where shelving walls concealed a gloomy nook,
+Drags her reluctant. There with anxious eyes, 
+'Mid the rank grass an iron grate she spies ; 
+The jarring hinges with harsh sound unclose,
+A broken stair the feeble twilight shows ; 
+Cautious the stranger climbs the rough ascent, 
+No lamp its hospitable guidance lent ; 
+Speechless he leads through chambers dark and drear 
+When a deep dying groan appals the ear ! 
+Now with increasing haste he hurries on, 
+Where, through a rent, the sickly moonbeams shone. 
+The light directs his trembling hands explore,
+Sunk in the panelled wall, a secret door. 
+" Within this sad retreat," he faltering said, 
+" A hapless female asks thy instant aid." 
+Aloof he stands. The door with thundering sound
+Enclosed the Leech ; loud rings the roof around,
+The tattered arras o'er the wainscot falls, 
+And lengthening echoes shake the dreary walls.
+
+Now breathless silence reigns the mansion o'er, 
+Save where a faint step treads the distant floor
+ Anon it pauses ceased the short delay, 
+It slowly stalks with measured pace away ; 
+Anon, affrighted by the whispering blast, 
+Starts, as in doubt, irregularly fast ;
+ And now, as listening, or in thoughtful mood,
+Lo ! near the secret door the stranger stood. 
+His eye distracted rolls, his threatening brow,
+Through bristled hair, he knits, and mutters low ;
+.Lifts his clenched hands, a groan of death within
+Impatient hears, and frantic rushes in. 
+
+Round a vast room with blackest arras hung,
+Its blood-red hues a flaming furnace flung ; 
+Full in the midst it casts a deadly glare,
+And heats with sulphurous clouds the tainted air ;
+ O'er the arched ceiling plays the quivering light,
+And brings by turns each dark recess to sight ; 
+Here, the approaching stranger's figure shows,
+And tints of horror o'er his visage throws ; 
+Here, on a humble couch, by grief bowed down,
+The lovely mansion of a spirit flown ! 
+A female form with yet unaltered charms, 
+'A child embracing in its senseless arms. 
+The mother's blessing, with life's latest breath 
+Arrested on her lips, still smiles in death ; 
+The unconscious infant on her bosom lies, 
+Pleased, and forgetful of its plaintive cries.
+--- 21921013
+Poem name:Staring outside the window at night contemplating until light comes
+
+in dour dark where day is dead, I do not sleep,
+but think this daedel earth in depth, with painful pow’r, 
+this fell fane where the men do prey with shameful deeds,
+and each must count from natal ho’r till fatal ho’r. 
+
+the sable veil is nightly thickened, the light lost,
+yet still a trail of comets flaming, this odd glow,
+this trace to sail by cosmic haul, where stars like frost, 
+will pale a pale passed follies faults, that fools follow,
+
+chiefly with woes wallowed, in throes swallowed by grief, 
+priestly pain made decoupled from perseverance, 
+kingly pomp pruned of the great tree, splendor deceased,
+beastly in remnant with a seed’s worth of spirit. 
+
+even so, with a seed’s worth of a strewn spirit, 
+eeven glows, lit by beams bursting from new joy,
+Eve in gold vision sings, warb’ling a due lyric,
+Eve in-goes Eden, the tree earned by true voice. 
+
+this dream, where heaven’s bower bends its boughs with bloom,
+bounty abundant, blossoming with variegate,
+of brassy brawn, the sea-braid byssus, the black moon;
+demi and plenilune alike with varied face.
+
+this very place eftsoon the gloom is due its doom,
+its beauty jewled with bloom, double enjewled with dew,
+shall boom with plumèd birds, with rainbow wings a-droop,
+and will the rouge and blue fuse for a robe a-doon.
+
+but I, in gout with bloodied brain, with ruddy flame,
+desire to gore with the cold knife til hunger’s glut,
+be fed by rills rage-poured, with purulence entrained, 
+my ghost to stir as by bone fife and by skin drum.
+
+to ride with monstrous pride through pinèd copses wild,
+to crush the grape and seize the bird and eat its child, 
+to run and rape the stone by force by strike defiled,
+to plunge the deep and see leviathan be riled! 
+
+to see the deeper sea, where sits a prince more mild,
+whose side there leaks the water’s soul and bleeds new life, 
+who pouring sleep in breast receives each little child,
+for death is rest and endless hence, they will see light.
+
+the elements in ecstasy of endlessness, 
+from emrold green to excrement to evergreen, 
+to emanate his essences by gentleness, 
+this excitement! eternity to everything! 
+
+and rolling down again as wind to soar and bow,
+to whirl and wīnd and wheel like wind til slow the breath, 
+and down descend, to breeze and raise the fragrant ground, 
+to down in bed, to sleep with thanks, this fated rest.
+
+this weighted stress, this weight that presses down, relieved,
+this weighted chain, this weight that draws me down, released,
+the waited day, the wait is over now, it seems,
+the waited rest, til day and dawn is out, I sleep.
+--- 21921161
+The beginning of an epic I am composing. The meter is composed in iambs. Would love to hear your thoughts, my main concern is that the pacing is going too fast.
+--- 21921173
+Idle reflections on Analects 17
+
+Confucius, Master, would not suffer
+Those who sat and stuffed their stomachs,
+Slacked their senses, let the sun set;
+Much better would be to play Go.
+
+The Master said: But would there were no words! 
+The seasons take their course, and what says heaven?
+What say the skies, though all is ever born?
+--- 21921182
+>>21921013
+The meter is really creative, absolutely adore alliteration also.
+--- 21921362
+Remember, students: no excuses not to write in meter;
+moreover, if your verse is earnest, let it be iambic.
+Rhyme, but not too much, lest you be thought pedantic;
+When choosing subjects, stick to classics: time has made them sweeter.
+--- 21921780
+Urge to release
+Yellow river
+Piss
+--- 21921814
+>>21921161
+>what has has 
+Typo?
+Some iambs aren't quite right, like "over" which is a trochee.
+>made within 
+Why start with a single stressed syllable? MADE withIN
+Just my thoughts so far. Interesting anyway.
+--- 21922217
+>>21921013
+>to ride with monstrous pride through pinèd copses wild,
+>to crush the grape and seize the bird and eat its child,
+These two lines are incredible. What a great way to phrase storming heaven and eating the egg of creativity. Though if I were to nitpick I would say perhaps you ought not to mix the Nordic imagery of the wild Hunt with the Mediterranean grape-crushing.

lit/21913164.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,354 @@
+-----
+--- 21913164
+what book are you currently reading?
+--- 21913173
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Titus groan
+--- 21913175
+>>21913164 (OP)
+None of your business
+--- 21913327
+Brothers by Yu Hua.
+--- 21913352
+>>21913164 (OP)
+The Secret History by Donna Tartt
+--- 21913393
+The Count of Monte Cristo
+--- 21913421
+>>21913393
+Same, nice. 
+Also reading a biography of Napoleon.
+--- 21913429
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Lost illusions by Balzac 
+The last letters of Ortis of Foscolo 
+Poems by Browning 
+
+All in their original languages of course
+--- 21913453
+>>21913164 (OP)
+the turner diari-
+i mean, Till We Have Faces
+it's crazy how quickly you can read a book when you actually enjoy it
+--- 21913467
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Fear And Trembling, taking a break from my other tomes to try and run through this book in one evening (I can hope). Kierkegaard’s prose annoys me though but I get the point so far.
+--- 21913470
+after a recommendation from someone, 400 pages in
+to be fair it has a nicely flowing structure, decent exploration into some issues of modern society
+but pretty uninteresting prose and style, boring at most parts, feels like a lengthy fictionalized lecture from someone on instances of oppression/injustice that could be reduced to a page-long list of 'x is bad, y is bad, z is bad' and so on
+
+4/10 idk why shit like this gets prizes. uninspired and patronizing.
+--- 21913473
+>>21913470
+>idk why shit like this gets prizes
+do you REALLY dk?
+--- 21913512
+>>21913164 (OP)
+I don't really read books bro
+--- 21913515
+Anna Karenina 
+
+I'm a fourth of the way finished. I'm assuming it gets better given its status as a world classic, but so far it's been a really slow story.
+--- 21913565
+>>21913336
+Overweight woman based on hand
+--- 21913580
+Don Q, really enjoyable read
+--- 21913586
+>>21913580
+>reading Don't Quixote in English instead of Spanish
+Nigger tier shit, as evidenced by your paw
+--- 21913589
+>>21913565
+:(
+--- 21913591
+>>21913586
+Spanish is nigger tier language so my paw and I are living it up in the kings English
+--- 21913598
+>>21913164 (OP)
+My own story I wrote
+--- 21913600
+>>21913173
+Based
+--- 21913611
+>>21913591
+English is a white man's language, you should be doing clicks in Africa monkey boy
+--- 21913616
+>>21913611
+You are mistaking a shadow on my hand for melanin anon
+--- 21913632
+>>21913616
+Do not gaslight me negro, I can see a darkie from a mile away. You know what? I'm calling the buck breaker, I just realizrd a negro learned to read so we got an uppity one.
+--- 21913642
+>>21913580
+>>21913616
+NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER
+--- 21913660
+>>21913642
+>>21913632
+Behold my nigger foot
+--- 21913665
+>>21913660
+Post your turner diaries and we'll accept that you're white
+--- 21913668
+>>21913660
+Holy edgy
+--- 21913669
+>>21913660
+Who did you steal that white man's foot from you dirty nigger?
+--- 21913673
+>>21913665
+As you wish
+--- 21913674
+>>21913515
+I feel the same way and I’m on page 130
+--- 21913677
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Cephalopology by Zulu Alitspa, it’s a really well done multi perspective sci fi novella.
+--- 21913681
+>>21913673
+Fine fuck you
+--- 21913684
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Master and Margarita
+--- 21913689
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Nothing. I just finished The Great Gatsby and I'm unsure what I want to read next.
+--- 21913692
+>>21913689
+Any of the books posted itt next to a foot are worth reading
+--- 21913703
+>>21913689
+Based, no other book itt comes to that one.
+--- 21913708
+>>21913692
+Lots of good things out there
+--- 21913715
+>>21913660
+>>21913673
+>>21913708
+Cringe
+--- 21913720
+>>21913715
+This is a chud safe space, take your shaming tactics elsewhere
+--- 21913721
+>>21913673
+You aight white boy.
+--- 21913723
+sartre nausea
+--- 21913724
+Dubliners
+Book of the New Sun
+Memories, Dreams, Reflections
+The Bands of Mourning
+--- 21913725
+>>21913708
+>There are racist babies among us posting on this very board.
+--- 21913726
+>>21913715
+--- 21913731
+>>21913726
+This racist chud has already procreated and me, a plus size gentleman gamer of color is still a virgin. Fuck this gay earth.
+--- 21913736
+>>21913725
+Oh noes i been called a racist
+--- 21913746
+>>21913731
+Get fit, get White, and get racist and you’ll get there anon
+--- 21913749
+>>21913724
+I’m halfway through Dubliners, I read one story each night before bed. Pretty comfy, how do you find it?
+--- 21913765
+>>21913749
+I too have been reading a story a day. I'm enjoying it more than I thought I would for stories about everyday stuff. I just finished Counterparts, I liked that one a lot.
+--- 21913848
+>>21913164 (OP)
+The Bible
+Macbeth
+Tender is the Night
+--- 21913862
+>>21913660
+Cringe books but another based footposter. I haven't struck in a while
+--- 21913880
+>>21913164 (OP)
+I'm about halfway through this. Don't really like it, but I don't like to give up on books either.
+--- 21913887
+>>21913880
+how'd you get tricked into reading this?
+--- 21913903
+>>21913887
+I got it at a thrift store. I wanted to understand why this was so popular in the 70s.
+--- 21914396
+>>21913164 (OP)
+King Lear
+--- 21915098
+I'm rereading Murata's short stories, A first-rate material, Life ceremony and A clean marriage are amazing.
+--- 21915850
+>>21913164 (OP)
+--- 21915866
+>>21915850
+Based
+--- 21915876
+>>21913327
+Tell me about Yu Hua, why does he repeat what happened 7 pages ago all the time?
+--- 21915889
+I just read this in a couple hours.
+Pretty good desu but the one character speaks a little too white even though he has a college degree.
+Made me wish I had learned a trade rather than becoming a cubicle drone with a marginally relevant degree. 
+
+One of the stage directions was “the dog looks up when Ben enters the room”. 
+Is this cracka serious?
+--- 21915945
+>>21915876
+Brothers is the book he wrote to copy Mo Yan. Neither used an editor.
+--- 21915968
+>>21915945
+I've read 4 Mo Yan novels and none of them do that.
+--- 21915988
+>>21915889
+This is lowkey one of his best works. A closet play with weird structure and form.
+--- 21915999
+I'm halfway through this. 
+I don't mean to sound condescending but most of what I've read is what I already know. But when I think about it, no one really taught me any of the emotional first aid stuff. Neither my parents ,siblings or my friends. Yet I know it somehow.
+--- 21916016
+>>21913352
+What are you 16?
+--- 21916030
+>>21913589
+Dirty bitch.
+--- 21916032
+>>21916016
+No, I just never read it, and I was curious.
+--- 21916209
+>>21915889
+>Made me wish I had learned a trade rather than becoming a cubicle drone with a marginally relevant degree.
+
+Hauling stones around in a Louisville Kentucky summer would make you long for your air conditioned cubicle
+--- 21916212
+>>21913164 (OP)
+The Shadow over Innsmouth
+Money by Sullitzer
+The 120 days of Sodom
+--- 21916228
+>>21913708
+Are you buying your shoes at Carter's?
+--- 21916487
+Reminder to boycott the gypsy carpetbagger and all his PR shills who are employed to manufacture his reputation. Chris via "asshole" is a plant. He has taken money from deep vellum to shill cartarshitcu on his channel to his gullible audience of 21 years olds. They even got his review published in a semi-decent magazine, something he was unable to do himself for 10 years. The fraud is so obvious and bad taste.
+--- 21916494
+>>21916487
+what book are you currently reading?
+--- 21916532
+>>21916487
+What on God's Green Earth are you talking about?
+--- 21916545
+>>21916487
+what
+--- 21916568
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Requiem for a Nun
+--- 21916591
+>>21915876
+Idk. Brothers is the only book I read from him. And if he did repeat what happensed 7 pages ago, I don't remember it and it wasn't an issue to me.
+--- 21917330
+>>21913470
+you read 400 pages of this shit?
+this is not a book in the actual sense, it is a victory parade celebrating the renovation of britain to a 'country of immigrants', dancing over the corpse of old english identity. or idk maybe thats the only way I can see it being british
+--- 21917346
+>>21913164 (OP)
+I don’t read
+--- 21917801
+>>21915850
+same. its so fucking funny
+--- 21917808
+>>21916494
+Gerald Murnane.
+--- 21917846
+just started this bad boy
+--- 21917885
+Just one chapter in 
+People are already dying of some sort of plague
+--- 21917892
+>>21913689
+Have you considered reading something good this time?
+--- 21917982
+Finally giving it a shot because everyone keeps raving about it.
+--- 21918054
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Mason & Dixon, I'm getting filtered as hell...
+--- 21918196
+>>21918054
+i want to throttle every one of you fucks that reads these oversized meaningless american novels
+--- 21918408
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Hunger by Knut Hamsun
+--- 21918422
+about to start part 2 of Don Quixote
+--- 21918467
+I have no mouth, and I must screem. Going to start The buried giant next.
+--- 21918480
+>>21913352
+Based
+--- 21918487
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Moby Dick. It's completely lived up to the hype so far for me.
+--- 21918505
+Plato's Timaeus
+--- 21918512
+>>21913164 (OP)
+The Stranger. The French sure are indifferent about their dead moms.
+--- 21918529
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Introduction to Metaphysics: From Parmenides to Levinas
+--- 21918577
+>>21913164 (OP)
+War as an inner experience by Ernst Junger and Metaphysics of war by Julius bad boy Evola.
+--- 21918998
+Romances viejos españoles
+The Second Invasion from Mars
+--- 21919005
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Gateway by Frederick Pohl
+The Illustrated Man by Ray Bradbury
+--- 21919009
+This is good. I really wish it had more lurid details though.
+--- 21919010
+I started a short 100 page book about Homer, which I'll probably finish today.
+
+I have so many books to choose from as next and I've narrowed them down to:
+>History - Herodotus
+>Journey to the End of the Night
+>Stoner (a shortie, maybe I could read that in a day or two to get the meme over with)
+>Blood Meridian (another meme book that I feel I'm missing out if I haven't read)
+--- 21919026
+>>21919010
+Keep up the Greeks, my friend. I really enjoyed Herodotus, especially when he gave his thoughts on Homer. He was convinced that Helen was never at Troy and was instead in Egypt, which has some mythical evidence.
+--- 21919028
+Just started reading this. An anon here put me onto it.
+>ywn have an iron hand made to smite peasants with
+why even live
+--- 21919038
+>>21919028
+Wait I've watched a couple youtube vids on this guy. He wrote an autobiography about himself?
+--- 21919043
+>>21919038
+Yes.
+--- 21919055
+First thing I've read in French in a while (I'm intermediate). Only got through the first part so far but its good even though I don't understand everything. Haven't really gotten to the main narrative yet but the descriptions of Syrian temples and rites are pretty vivid, I can picture a lot of it as a darker version of Fellini Satyricon.
+--- 21919070
+>>21919043
+Holy shit nice. I'm surprised a guy like that could even read desu.
+--- 21919076
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Started reading Bartleby at work
+--- 21919314
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Pic rel and Conquest by Hugh Thomas
+--- 21920687
+>>21913164 (OP)
+Just finished one hundred years of solitude, starting The metamorphosis by Kafka
+--- 21920699
+Graham Oppy - Arguing about Gods
+--- 21920708
+>>21919314
+I always find it weird when editors put anything other than Ecce Homo at the end of their compilations on Nietzsche

lit/21913573.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,424 @@
+-----
+--- 21913573
+How are the opening paragraph(s) of the novel I'm writing? 
+
+Not much, but a little something I suppose.
+--- 21914097
+You could summarize that in one paragraph. Cut the fluff out. Id grade it a C or a 3/5. I’m anon and you aren’t paying me so best I can say is keep writing then pay someone to edit it. Good luck faggot.
+--- 21914112
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>the vibes
+--- 21914127
+>>21914097
+Dont read Pynchon then. YA has failed you
+--- 21914133
+>>21914112
+I actually put that in on purpose to illicit that reaction lmao
+--- 21914136
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>She
+stopped reading there; don't care about women.
+--- 21914157
+>>21914133
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>the vibes
+--- 21914171
+>>21914133
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>the vibe
+>it was on purpose
+--- 21914180
+>>21914127
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>the vibe
+>It was on purpose bro
+--- 21914183
+>>21914133
+>the vibe
+--- 21914185
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>held the vibe
+--- 21914192
+>>21914133
+>IT WAS ON PURPOSE
+--- 21914207
+>>21913573 (OP)
+Nice anime story
+--- 21914208
+Y’all can’t vibe? Lol. Hey gtfo if you ain’t got life experience faggots. Fucking life ends and you nerds want to be healthy organ donors at 95.
+--- 21914224
+>the vibe
+--- 21914232
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>vibe
+--- 21914237
+worse than "the vibes" is that that sentence has a comparison "than" but doesn't tell you if it's more than? less than? closer than? newer than? what than?
+--- 21914302
+>>21914237
+You're referring to Spice had allured ...? 
+
+It literally says that she prefers the spice (clove cigs) more than raw, precise foods that the city is known for. Then, I literally name drop sashimi later on in the paragraph. Which is eaten raw, and is prepared by somebody who cuts carefully.
+--- 21914317
+>>21914302
+Not that anon, but if you can't see what he's talking about it might be best for you to get a beta reader or join a writing circle to help you find these things.
+--- 21914318
+Honestly has promise, anon -- good job and keep at it. 
+
+My one mild criticism is that the syntax of a bit mechanical and thus lends itself to a YA-genre cadence. Add more complexity to create fluidity, poetry, and flow in your prose; dashes, semicolons and embedded clauses go a long way.
+--- 21914319
+>>21914237
+Ah, I see you are referring to "preteen jewelry shops..."
+
+I was meaning to say that the boutiques known for that specific food had auras that more resembled those sorts of places (Claire's in particular i.e. the white walls, fluorescent lighting, overtly effeminate/hyper-consumerist retro 00s era aesthetic. very much shopped at by weird teenage girls) moreso than what is typically thought of when eating those particular foods (i.e. high end, yuppie urbanite places) 
+
+Later on, I go on to further describe the particular bistro as having pink plushmallows (big stuffed animal things that emotionally immature women often own) to sit apon, as well as the entire thing having borderline tendencies. 
+
+trying to paint the picture that the modern world they live in capitalizes on the eventual emotionally unstable, BPD traits this particular character has.
+--- 21914326
+>>21914318
+Thank you. 
+
+Typically my first drafts, which are spur of the moment things, will have those sort of cadences, or at least similar ones, because I'm trying to just get the ideas down on paper. 
+
+With further revisions comes the fun part, which is adding the allusions, metaphors, subtext etc. Making it less mechanical.
+--- 21914348
+>>21914326
+Also, the common splice is your worst enemy at first glance. An editor will do that part for you, generally, but unless you're making an intentional effort to create disruptive and awkward prose, I recommend cleaning up on the second go.
+--- 21914355
+>>21914348
+comma* splice
+Sorry, phoneposting at the moment.
+--- 21914395
+>>21914355
+I'm going to ask a separate question, simply because I don't want to make another thread.
+
+When I write, mechanics aside, I find that I am just not at all interested in making the plot at all an important factor, or at the very least, overtly compelling. Not to say that there isn't one, or that I purposely veil it. I just find it much more interesting to write in a manner that is a lot more "distant" than what is typically published. 
+
+Assuming that, with further edits and so on, I do focus my novel on themes, character interactions (often times, characters might sit in cafes, alone or with others and physically do nothing but sit and drink coffee or read a newspaper. But my prose will often go on constructed tangents where the particular thing they are doing says something about culture, or their psychology, religion etc.) Not to say that the entire thing is like that, but I just do not feel compelled to make a plot that has any real sense of urgency. Sometimes a character gets bullied at school, and deals with that. Sometimes a character fights with their mom and there's several chapters to deal with that. But a lot of my writing shows the thoughts of the POV character, just at a distance, so it appears as if I am telling the reader what I want them to know (which apparently is bad advice for immersion and sympathy for characters) But in reality, the characters are thinking themselves, or reflecting. And that is what drives their motives. By going hyper detailed into their process, just not from a typical deep POV method. 
+
+The point is, am I fucked if I tend to focus on these other things much more than actual plot? I want to have chapters that resemble Hugo-level digressions, simply because I love enyclopedia novels. I want to have a character go to a bar and then describe that place with psychocultural detail. Even if the plot exists, and even if I move it, albeit glacially, is there even a market with literary publishers, in the era of TikTok, for a book that basically says "trust me bro, it'll all make sense at like page 1000)"
+--- 21914416
+>>21914395
+There's a neat little indie artist named James Joyce who wrote a book where not much happens in terms of "epic" events and it's now considered one of the masterpieces of Western literature. 
+
+So, no, your stories don't need to have continent-spanning intrigue like Dracula or surrealist escapades like The Master and Margarita or even the amblings of The Sound and the Fury.
+
+Something of interest is interesting in and of itself.
+--- 21914429
+>>21913573 (OP)
+Who is the "She" from the first sentence refering to? Cho's oldest daughter? If that's the case, then I would switch the first and the second sentences.
+--- 21914439
+>>21913573 (OP)
+It's kind of generic.
+--- 21914757
+>>21914395
+I follow you. I think you’re onto something. I wish I could make a more compelling response but I do understand what you mean by going plotless. Like someone else said here, an editor will help you fix a few spots but it does sound like you’re onto something with your description of “avoiding the plot” ramblings. I still give it a 3/5 though.
+--- 21914760
+>>21914429
+Stfu moron
+--- 21914833
+>>21914302
+wow you're retarded
+--- 21915600
+>>21914833
+Post writing
+--- 21915607
+>>21915600
+not an argument
+
+He’s obviously refering to your reading comorehension, nothing to do with your writing
+--- 21915612
+>>21913573 (OP)
+In my opinion, I would have hot steamy sex with the main character of the text.
+--- 21915620
+>>21913573 (OP)
+are you a woman?
+--- 21915624
+>>21915620
+Yes, actually, though I was born a male.
+--- 21915628
+>>21915607
+Nigga didn't even say anything of value
+--- 21915808
+>>21915624
+keep the cock
+--- 21915832
+>>21913573 (OP)
+show dont tell
+--- 21915846
+I'm not going to read it all, but you can reduce "Underneath concrete canopies, there stood ... " to "Underneath concrete canopies stood ... " Flows better
+--- 21915969
+>>21913573 (OP)
+Idk man. I hate hating in peoples work because god knows my shit sucks but I do love reading and think I have decent taste. I guess my question is who are you writing this for? What genre are you marketing this as? There are a lot of allusions to things that the reader will not know about yet and that shit can get annoying. It feels like reading one of those madlib booklets. I think I just need more context for what you are trying to do. Not hating but those are some observations.
+--- 21916020
+>>21915969
+So after reading your response that clarified sort of what you’re going for I think that you are definitely in the right track. I don’t know if you need 3 paragraphs for what you wrote. I would highly recommend more fluidity by use of semi colons and what not though. People hate in them here but I personally love them. Guess just do your thing in that regard. I think if you’re trying to write an encyclopedic novel like you were saying you are doing some good work to get there. I also don’t care too much about plot but there needs to be an overarching tension of sorts. The plot can be simple and still hold an air of tension and mystery throughout the novel like Moby Dick. I haven’t read IJ but the concept of the novel is clear from even just the title. If you can conceptualize the book clearly and set clear expectations for the read early on, you are free to write whatever you want as long as it’s tying to the concept itself. Meandering around without that core to tie into may not give the reader enough motivation to keep reading your semi constructed journal entries if you know what I mean.
+--- 21916037
+>>21913573 (OP)
+“Cancer sticks” is cringe. I felt like I was reading cyberpunk too btw. Maybe that’s what you’re going for though so just an observation:
+--- 21916421
+>>21916037
+I use cyberpunk-ish aesthetics as a backdrop for my themes. But I absolutely not writing boilerplate cyberpunk. 
+
+>>21916020
+
+Good advice, thanks. Fluidity is something I struggle with. But I've devoted the summer to re-reading GR, so I hope to get something good in terms of general lyrical prose out of it
+
+I guess my difficulty lies in the synthesis of free-flowing prose and my own internal themes. Hopefully some intense summer reading can enlighten me. 
+
+>>21915969
+For myself. But the audience I'm going for are more literary types. No genre. As for the allusions, I know they are abstract, cryptic and vague. I suppose it's half because I'd rather have character interaction make sense of them, especially upon re-reads, and partly because I struggle sometimes contextualizing the extremely vivid, yet abstract emotions that I have in my head.
+--- 21916438
+>>21913573 (OP)
+You write well enough. Your style is a bit old fashioned, but I like it and I wish more people still wrote like that
+--- 21916472
+>>21913573 (OP)
+Don't know much about the plot, but judging from the excerpt, it looks pretty good. It's something that I will read. I think you're probably good enough to start being careful of what criticism to take in. There're people who will criticize your work not because of your craft but rather it simply doesn't suit their taste. If you take in those advices, you might risk losing your own style. So be careful, especially around here. Good luck anon.
+--- 21916486
+>>21916472
+I will echo this: take in criticism that helps you write better, not criticism that helps you write differently. Some of the feedback on sounding less mechanical COULD be good provided that is something you internally want to improve on. Don't listen to anyone who gives you one-line responses, uses buzzwords, replies in reaction images while quoting your work, etc. It's not too hard to separate genuine feedback from shitposts because, frankly, most people on /lit/ aren't intelligent enough to insidiously derail you; they are just insecure and want you to share their suffering.
+--- 21916534
+>>21916438
+Thank you. I'm a big fanatic of 19th century Russian lit (Anna K is my favorite book of all time) and the Bronte sisters, so I guess it's rubbed off on me. I've been making my way into modernism more, especially with Pynchon. Hopefully I can blend the jazziness of his prose with the more old fashioned stuff. 
+
+>>21916486
+Good advice. I'm so disillusioned with feedback because every writing circle online has just been Sanderson echo chambers and genrefic guys who only want plot and if anything gets in the way of it they become hostile and tell me that they would DNF the book etc. Makes me fear publishing. 
+
+When does "someone's style" start to hinder their work, objectively? As much as I love Anna K for example, I get why some people dislike the narrative distance between the characters and the narrator, and the agricultural digressions. But sometimes the book is more than the sum of its parts, and I find that I struggle with maintaining that suspension of disbelief with other readers. 
+
+Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
+--- 21916548
+>>21916534
+Only you can decide whether you want to write purely in a way that expresses your soul or whether you are willing to compromise on that in order for an ostensibly greater likelihood of commercial success.
+
+My recommendation would be to write in the way that makes you feel most fulfilled. You can always reshape things after they have already been built. Send your work in to a professional publisher/editor, though -- don't change anything based on the feedback of strangers', ESPECIALLY in circumstances where they are aggressive or hostile.
+--- 21916564
+>>21916548
+I assume I'd start with agents. Publishers don't accept unsolicited material. Hopefully an exuberant word count doesn't turn them off.
+--- 21916791
+>>21914395
+>>21913573 (OP)
+I recognise the prose from another thread you did. Man its clear you have talent with your writing and style:
+
+OK first, as someone else pointed out the first two sentences are just confusing as fucked and need to be swapped, or at least rephrased. I know what youre trying to do with them but style is pointless if it takes the reader 4 go-overs to understand that the first two sentences are referring to the same person.
+
+Second: the text is dense with alliterative allusions to cool-sounding sci-fi things we know nothing about (which can be fine) like 'cancersticks', 'ultramandarin vendors' 'tencent faux' and honestly 'Spice had allured her more than the raw pleasures of careful-cut culinary known to the great metropolis, ripe with boutiques that held the vibes of preteen jewelry shops than urban haute confectionaries' either doesnt make sense or what its referring to is really specific sci-fi shit. This can work, as it does in most sci-fi, by slowly drip-feeding explanations and descriptions until the reader has an incredibly vivid understanding of the fictional world. in fact that is part of the appeal. However, it makes it hard to give a proper assessment on only small extracts alone. What I could maybe suggest is somewhat toning down the first chapter down, so that the reader doesnt give up in the first chapter, but enough to intrigue them into the world.
+
+Other things like the, lets just say, unique similies/metaphors is a matter of style and im honestly not well-read enough in post-modern/modern literature to have a fair opinion. have you written any short stories? I would like to see them
+
+tldr; you do yourself no favours posting small extracts
+--- 21916954
+>>21916791
+Alright, here. This is from another piece I am working on, in the same universe. It's unfinished, but it's nearly 20 pages and has a better sense of scale and flow. 
+
+https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BGmtZzCcsi8Nk2xMqS1dpybqRhI_lncYHjyDtucOt6I/edit?usp=sharing
+--- 21917007
+>>21916954
+I should also add that this is about half of the story, and the full thing had been sent out to a few literary journals, one of which I have a good feeling will get published in. 
+
+Not gonna post the whole thing for obvious reasons.
+--- 21917040
+>>21916954
+Wow, this is really good. Like fantastic. I teach creative writing at college, and, including the time I was getting my MFA, every above-average intelligence white guy tries to do the faux-Pynchon thing. So when I read your OP I rolled my eyes so hard. Those guys never get published because no one wants to read a shitty Pynchon. But this is really good, really original voice. Follow this, OP. I only say this because there’s a spark of talent here. You’ll never be as good a Pynchon as Pynchon, but no one will ever be as good a You as you.
+--- 21917080
+>>21917040
+Actually smiled at this comment, like a mf schoolgirl. Thank you
+--- 21917122
+>>21913573 (OP)
+Here are my critiques:
+>she
+ And who might that be lmao? I know this is suppose to be an excerpt, but additional context would be helpful
+
+> Long streaks of white clawed at the sky, like the marks on her skin that she wished weren't hers.
+Not sure what this is suppose to add to the setting? I like some of the descriptions you’ve made — such as “concrete canopies”, “haute confectioneries” — but some of the descriptions can come across as fluff. Also, what are these “marks” and how does that relate to the immediate context?
+
+>Illegally sourced ultramandarin vendors
+Not sure what this means. There is quite a bit of unclear jargon in this story. Maybe it makes more sense outside of this excerpt. 
+
+Tell me what is the overall premise of the story? So far, it’s promising: you certain know how to set the atmosphere of a story, but I think there is bit too much fluff and over descriptions in this excerpt
+--- 21917135
+>>21917122
+You will find out later, again, I posted a dumb small paragraph, without much exposition, so it makes sense later. That's my fault. 
+
+Self harm scars. Also, "wished they weren't hers" also refers to love marks from nails during sex. 
+
+Ultramandarin is explained later as a psychocombative drug used recreationally. 
+
+Very long premise, not sure how to explain it simply or if I should explain it via plot or story/themes
+--- 21917207
+>>21916954
+yeah that's great. the first paragraphs in your novel should be more like that. It could maybe work if you already had a Joyce-esque acclaim, then you can can say "fuck it" to the casuals from the very start, but you dont. im >>21916791
+--- 21917363
+>>21915832
+Sneed don't feed
+--- 21917704
+It's good. You have certain weaknesses but it may not be possible to eliminate them without also losing some of your strengths. I would say, try to alternate the tortuous poetic prose with shorter, easily digested sentences. Think of how Milton will have very simple Germanic English after a Latinate passage. But then, maybe the all-encompassing weirdness is good, would work out over an entire book.
+--- 21917944
+>>21913573 (OP)
+
+A big part of the problem is that you are jumping from line to line without any coherent connection. It feels very disjointed, like random sentences that have just been thrown together, sentences that are only there because you think they are pretty. In reality they are purple verging on the incomprehensible.
+
+"careful-cut culinary?"
+"mininal translucentries?"
+"innocence of angst and flavor?"
+--- 21918346
+>>21913573 (OP)
+you are using odd metaphors and older terms/words combined with a flow and style which is both inconsistent and not very good, which just makes the whole thing sound very pretentious and boring
+--- 21918386
+>>21913573 (OP)
+If your prose were any purpler it would be the Emperor of Rome
+--- 21919188
+>>21913573 (OP)
+Did you intend to write "megapolis" instead of "megalopolis"? What about the non-plural "fisherman" in the first sentence — is that not supposed to be the plural fishermen?
+--- 21919309
+>>21919188
+> is that not supposed to be the plural fishermen?
+I assumed it's supposed to refer to a specific person, who's identity we aren't familiar yet with.
+--- 21919345
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>At eleven she started smoking cloves after she heard it was en vogue in the Orient among fish mongers. Cho's eldest daughter stood there under the concrete canopy having absolutely no business knowing the fads of Celestial longshoremen. The spice itself held more allure for her than the raw pleasure of careful cut tabak the great megapolis was known for, ripe with a bouquet of preteen costume jewlers more so than haute urbaniste confectionaries - an odd synthesis, to eat with bamboo rods knife slivered sashimi atop pink plushmallows, minimalistic translucency bleed-throughs in the bizarrely thick glass walls of the haunt for borderline personalities. 
+>--FUCK
+>She had been queued for what seemed an eternity after being directed tomake a reservation with the slattern of a hostess. 
+
+Readable automatic writing cyperpunk Gibson-Burroughs type shit needs rhythm and space to breath the 'maximalism', so don't skimp on the (sur)realism particularities. 
+
+For editorial passes: 1/5th to 1/3rd fewer word count, half or less the punctuation marks (especially commas). Then see how you have to approach what you've presented yourself to fit the constraints. Tighten it up, chase polysemy and phonosemantic counterpoint.
+--- 21919362
+>>21918346
+this. no cultural significance to be had. whole lotta nothing
+--- 21919416
+>>21914133
+>
+--- 21920822
+>>21913573 (OP)
+>concrete canopies
+Unless this is fantisy, there is no concrete canopies in the world. Canopies block out the sky, skyscrapers/commieblocks are never wider at the top than at the bottom
+>raw pleasures
+bromide
+>careful-cut culinary known to the great megapolis, ripe with boutiques that held the vibes of preteen jewelry shops than urban haute confectionaries.
+the worst possible way to say "she liked spice more than fancy food"
+>She had been waiting to go in for a time,
+could be mystery, but it is the first page, so please tell me where she is and what she is waiting to go in. also, for a time is way too generic for how specific you just were
+>And her pack was low.
+empty not low
+>So the thought of smoking pure tobacco made her gag.
+why did she think this. She smokes clove cigs, does she have a pack of normal cigs just to be disgusted at and never use? 
+>lengthened like a maudlin confession.
+bad simile
+>like the marks on her skin that she wished weren't hers.
+too many similes in a row, just say it reminded her of her skin. Instead of "wished weren't hers" say regretted.
+>It had everything a fifteen year old girl could ask for.
+so the rest of the 15 year olds are simalor to protag? they all hang out here and like cigs and twin gods etc?
+>and other substances
+either name the substances or just delete this
+>the brightest of chemicals
+chemicals are not bright, unless she is smoking sulphur and yellow cake.
+>concrete maze,
+she is outside and on a street, how is a street also a maze. 
+>three came forth
+its not 1822
+>great cloud of smoke.
+bad and vague adjective.
+
+overall, 2/10
+--- 21921113
+>>21920822
+>Unless this is fantisy, there is no concrete canopies in the world.
+a concrete canopy is apparently a specific architectural feature. I did not know this.
+
+>Instead of "wished weren't hers" say regretted.
+well "wished weren't hers" means something different than "regretted." Use of "regretted" would imply some kind of mature retrospection—and maybe the character is just a dumb bitch—uh, I mean still has some growing to do.
+
+>empty not low
+what if the pack is almost empty, hence low?
+
+>how is a street also a maze
+streets can be confusing, sprawling, and same-y like a maze. We call this a metaphor.
+
+I give OP a 3/10 and your critique a 3/5
+--- 21921196
+>>21920822
+Concrete canopies exist
+
+Raw pleasure is self explanatory
+
+Stating shit simply isn't fun, minimalism is gay as hell
+
+Valid
+
+She's an addict, has them as back up. Not very hard to understand, you're just being autistic and finding semantics
+
+Not an argument
+
+Already explained this above
+
+Her friend group, given how she's a sort of street rat, yeah. But also, it's ironic. Crazy how you couldn't piece that together
+
+Dont need to, it's not nonfiction
+
+Well in this case they are, especially given how you can contextualize the descriptions of drugs I.e. Ultramandarin and the others. Have an imagination.
+
+Niggas never been in a city before
+
+Nigga doesn't read anything but YA
+
+Lame opinion, that is invalidated by the resentful autism you've displayed.
+
+1/10
+--- 21921228
+>>21921196
+I don’t care about that other anons critique or the story really, but
+
+>She's an addict, has them as back up
+Wouldn’t she just have another pack of cloves instead of a pack of regulars?
+--- 21921256
+>>21921113
+at least i didnt loose
+
+As for low vs empty, if it was low she could smoke one and should say low on not just low. The pack isn't low, the contents are. 
+also im 99% sure the street will not prove to be maze like at all and that nobody will get lost or confused. Streets are also laid out in a grid or other pattern, unlike a maze. Unless this is rome in 100bc its probably not going to be maze like. 
+
+>>21921196
+raw pleasure is over used. Nobody will really think about what raw+pleasure will mean. Raw pleasure has become a phrase in itself. All words are self explanatory
+minimalism may be gay as hell, but so is purple prose
+why would she have normal cigs as a back up, just buy more clove cigs. I don't buy almond milk if I am worried about running out of milk
+in "everything... could ask for", the author seems to be third person omniscient, so why is it snarky. 
+you don't need to name the substances, but "other substances" is just a waste of paper. It literally means nothing.
+using came forth is fine, but there should be consistency. 
+The cloud is not really great, nobody will ever remember it, and it seems like nobody likes it
+--- 21921333
+>>21921228
+No, one of her friends gets them imported from her, probably should've included that in the screenshot
+--- 21921355
+>>21913573 (OP)
+You definitely have talent. I noticed a lot of problems, but I did come away wanting to read more which I think is the most important thing.
+
+On to the critique. Grammar and word choice is very poor at times. Normally not a big deal, it just needs editing, but it's clear that you have tried to polish these paragraphs so it's a big red flag that there are errors.
+
+> the raw pleasures of careful-cut culinary
+culinary is an adjective with no noun. consider "culinary x" with x being an appropriate noun. If you want to be more daring and agrammatical at least consider "culinaries" (not a real word)
+
+> held the vibes
+it should be "had the vibes." I won't explain this one but it should be obvious
+
+>knifethin sashimi, atop pink plushmallows
+"knife-thin" Also, when i first read, I thought the sashimi was on the plushmallows. so reorder for clarity
+
+Paragraphs 2 and 3 are better in terms of grammar, but there is still a lack of clarity in the transition. Suddenly we have jumped from when she started smoking to the present moment.
+
+Overall, not bad, my specific advice would be to write without worrying too much about the style and the prose too much. Get your ideas down in plain English and figure out how to make it pretty later.
+--- 21921371
+>>21921355
+I wasn't going to say anything about the grammar, but since this anon went through some I'll just say the first verb in the first sentence is the wrong tense. Just something to look out for OP.
+--- 21921397
+lost me at the first sentence
+--- 21921519
+>>21920822
+>t. Autist
+--- 21921527
+>>21921355
+Not OP, but that’s solid advice. I’m writing lore for my vidya game, and I could use writing advice since I’m mainly a tech-oriented person
+--- 21921564
+>>21921519
+would you rather have a harry potter fan critique it?

lit/21914448.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,291 @@
+-----
+--- 21914448
+Any books on how to control and manipulate women? Any good 'dark psychology' books?
+--- 21914468
+>>21914448 (OP)
+>Books about incel fantasies ?
+--- 21914499
+>>21914448 (OP)
+From an educational perspective?
+
+Models is the genre classic for
+>I just want pussy, gimme a basic roadmap to get some
+
+"How to Win Friends and Influence People" is the generalized normie-approved
+>I want to convince people of stuff, how do I do that?
+
+"Never Split the Difference" is the slightly more black hat masterclass in
+>I want to be less emotionally retarded in conversation and negotiating, but the important thing is I still get what I want. What now?
+
+Starting Strength is the classic for
+>No, I mean LITERAL control, as in I want to pick her up
+
+"Jiu Jitsu University" is the classic for
+>No, I mean LITERAL manipulation, as in headlocks and chokes
+--- 21914509
+>>21914468
+?
+>>21914499
+Thanks for the list
+--- 21914515
+>>21914448 (OP)
+> Any books on how to control and manipulate women? 
+No books, chubbo. It’s just called being good looking, something which I willing to bet you don’t know anything about.
+--- 21914529
+>>21914515
+You can control and manipulate women without being good looking though
+--- 21914535
+>>21914529
+This kind of thing is in the blood. You won’t be able to learn how to manipulate girls through books because it requires a distinctly feminine spirit that loves intrigue. You either got it or ya don’t.
+--- 21914541
+>>21914535
+You can learn the theory and then practice it, eventually you develop experience and you can do it naturally.
+--- 21917201
+>>21915778
+did you try it yourself?
+--- 21917360
+>>21914468
+Women aren’t meant to have rights anyways, that’s how you get the society we have now
+--- 21917635
+>>21915778
+Here it is.
+Ding ding, /thread
+
+>>21917201
+
+Yep, it works great. (Getting laid a lot won’t make you happy like you think it will, but losing your virginity fucking rocks)
+--- 21917647
+>>21915778
+Holy fuck that’s my post,
+I’m a copypasta on 4chan. I really shouldn’t be proud or honored, I should probably be the opposite actually, 
+but damnit if I’m not totally smiling ear to ear
+I love you guys.
+--- 21917664
+>>21917360
+Kys disgusting incel
+--- 21917667
+>>21915778
+Just downloaded this kino. Will tell you guys later what I think of it.
+--- 21917670
+>>21917360
+Based and succinctpilled
+--- 21917674
+>>21917667
+>women
+>mysterious 
+lmao
+--- 21917678
+>>21917674
+Yea, but he was rejected numerous times by the woman he was attracted to and later he chose some Hungarian faggot. I don't want.
+--- 21917679
+>>21915778
+I read one of these seduction books once, it was terrible, it basically was "yeah yeah you have no game becuz ur a noice guy, don't worry we can solve that" and the parts that talk about finally getting bitches implied that you need to go to the nearest night club and say 2 or 3 quirky lines, it was fucking stupid
+Is this one any good? I have never read any mystery but some people shill him a lot
+--- 21917690
+>>21917674
+The mystery is that they act like adult children but men, from the most educated to the retarded, will still end up enabling the worst of their behaviors.
+--- 21917692
+>>21914499
+Funny yet accurate.
+--- 21917700
+>>21917674
+The mystery is why god made them so fucking stupid and evil and yet we need them to survive
+--- 21917705
+>>21917678
+The woman he simped for was some aristocratic arthoe who spent her whole life blueballing intellectuals/artists and writing blogposts about them. That was the only time Nietzsche fell for a hoe, other women were worthless to him.
+--- 21917724
+If you are 140 and settling for a stupid woman it's a waste of genes. I've given some thought to this and just to hand off my genetic standing to my kids I'd have to get a very smart girl indeed. Depressing stuff, you can't be picky as a man on the dating market unless you're rich
+--- 21917727
+>>21917705
+>blueballing intellectuals/artists and writing blogposts about them
+Wait, what? Did Cosima really??
+--- 21917738
+>>21917727
+Lou Salome
+--- 21917742
+>>21914448 (OP)
+Pook?
+--- 21917819
+>>21914448 (OP)
+Pathetic. Kill yourself and then reevaluate your life, loser.
+--- 21917830
+>>21917819
+No.
+--- 21917837
+>>21917819
+Kys fatty
+--- 21918075
+>>21917690
+I act like an adult child too desu.
+--- 21918303
+>>21914448 (OP)
+Women only operate on “want and lack” 
+Make them think they lack something you have and they’ll be all over you
+Simple as. That’s why all marketing is geared towards women
+--- 21918313
+>>21918303
+>Make them think they lack something you have and they’ll be all over you
+how?
+--- 21918322
+>>21914541
+
+Then you've devoted a portion of your life to learning how to control women. 
+
+Which means they've been in control of you the whole time, and will continue to be. 
+
+
+Just get a job in a quarry and shovel rocks all day instead. Learn to control heavy machinery. Way more fun.
+--- 21918342
+>>21918322
+Pilpul
+--- 21918348
+>>21917664
+I’m homicidal not suicidal, you never be a real woman.
+
+>>21917670
+Thank you
+--- 21918349
+>>21918322
+>if you kill your enemies, they win
+Incredible argumentation
+--- 21918356
+>>21918313
+TELL HER SHE'S NOT AS PRETTY AS SHE THINKS SHE IS
+--- 21918359
+>>21918322
+>Want to learn how to program and control computers? Don't do it. You'll realize you've devoted a portion of your live to learning how to control computers which means they've been in control of you the whole time and will continue to be.
+--- 21918366
+>>21918356
+Please don't yell at me.
+--- 21918374
+>>21918366
+i'm not yelling at you, you have to put on your war face
+--- 21918377
+>>21918366
+I HAVE A FAT CAT AND HIS NAME IS LAWRENCE!!! I FEED HIM IN A RUBBER MAT SO HE EATS SLOWER AND HE IS UPSET ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+--- 21918459
+This board is for the discussion of literature, not midwit beta pick up artist shit. If you must discuss such disparate and worthless subjects at least have the courtesy to take it to another board like /adv/
+--- 21918469
+>>21918459
+thanks Jan but someone else will take it from here
+--- 21918472
+>>21914499
+Pretty good. Have a (You) for that slight dopamine hit.
+--- 21918561
+>>21918459
+>midwit shuts down discussion with empty platitudes instead of sharing his alpha male wisdom
+--- 21918751
+Robert Greene Art of Seduction. Jews are the best when it comes to things like this. Only read Jews on this matter
+--- 21918792
+>>21918459
+>If you must discuss such disparate and worthless subjects at least have the courtesy to take it to another board
+--- 21918980
+>>21917360
+Always lovely to have presence of a wise anon in thread
+--- 21918989
+>>21918751
+I used to blindly hate jews, but I can't really say they're wrong about everything.
+--- 21919120
+>>21917679
+have you tried not being a complete pussy? I get it bro, you're ugly but you need to man up and develop a personality quickly before your life flashes you by
+--- 21919125
+>>21919120
+>develop a personality quickly before your life flashes you by
+not him but this makes me incredibly anxious
+--- 21919186
+>>21917360
+basado
+--- 21919189
+>>21917700
+Take the bussy-bill.
+--- 21919293
+>>21919125
+it should make you anxious enough to inspire a change in your behavior.
+--- 21919347
+>>21919189
+the what?
+--- 21919430
+>>21915778
+I read that book. First of all he tried to pretend like he learned a lot from other fields and applied them to the pick up game, which made him sound like a midwits. Like quoting Bruce Lee and telling people to be like water just made it sound forced and dumb.
+Secondly, the whole book is basically just: make your perceived value seem higher than her perceived value. He said it in a more convoluted way though
+--- 21919436
+You're a nerd. Not because you want to "manipulate" women but because you see women as this mysterious other thing that you don't get. You probably play a lot of strategy games. Nerd.
+--- 21919461
+>>21919430
+>>21917667
+>>21917647
+>>21917635
+He later wrote about how he regretted that part of his life, read that too
+--- 21919469
+>>21919436
+Shut the FUCK up.
+--- 21919475
+>>21919436
+>because you see women as this mysterious other thing that you don't get
+Every man thinks like that about women. If a man innately understands women completely, or even at all. It is because he himself is a homosexual
+--- 21919485
+>>21917360
+truth
+--- 21919488
+Manipulation isn't real
+women will do whatever a handsome man tells them to and that's what they call manipulation, there's nothing to write about here
+
+notice how no one who reccomends any of these books writes what they learned from them, because all of "manipulation" pua and pick up books are just the equivalent of 70s books and cartoons for toddlers that tell you need to have a job and eat food to not die, it's all so basic you already know everything written in every one of these PUA books and you knew it all since you were a 5 year old. They aren't even real books, it's just shit you tell to a toddler that get regurgitted with catchy headlines to keep selling them for incels
+It's not possible for a human being capable of reading to ever learn anything from a book like "models". You cannot have learned to read without already knowing everything written in it, and even if you know everything written in that book you'd still be an incel because it doesn't actually refer to speaking with women. So if you're capable of understanding this post, you already know everything written in every book on the subject of manipulation, seduction etc.
+--- 21919507
+>>21918377
+Why is Lawrence fat?
+--- 21919511
+>>21919475
+There's nothing mysterious about them. You just don't interact with them so you formulate some mommy issues headcannon you read on the internet where they're irrational and scary.
+
+They want to be entertained and know someone is handling all the scary or boring stuff. They're basically grown children that want to fuck their dad.
+--- 21919519
+I feel like between these grift echo chambers and taking some 22yo modernity victim's tinder profile at face value, you guys just end up hating women for dumb reasons rather than for the obvious reasons. The mature policy is understanding women are different. They can work and compete and all that stuff but they don't like it and they shouldn't.
+--- 21919520
+>>21919469
+Fuck off incel
+--- 21919531
+>>21914448 (OP)
+>Any books on how to control and manipulate women?
+Take your meds
+--- 21919698
+>>21917700
+Ive made arguments for artificial wombs, like Shulamith Firestone however not to release the burden off women but to replace them
+--- 21919741
+>>21919436
+Wha? Bro are you white-knighting? You know there are no woman here for you to impress with your progressive intersectional feminism right?
+--- 21920168
+>>21919698
+Dude paternity tests are banned in some countries because they harm women do you actually think they'll allow a machine to do the only reason we keep them around
+--- 21920230
+>>21918359
+Honestly as someone whose done programming for like twenty years now this feels incredibly accurate
+--- 21920375
+>>21919461
+which part of this life?
+--- 21920387
+>>21920230
+>controlling something means you're the controlled!
+holy subversion. post nose.
+--- 21920390
+>>21914448 (OP)
+Being a man of worth and integrity so that you can obtain a woman of great worth will help you sleep better at night. Trust me. The ability to sleep soundly at night without needing to think about how shitty you are is worth it.
+--- 21920393
+>>21919520
+way to expose yourself tranny lmao
+ywnbaw
+--- 21920530
+>>21919436
+I agree. It's autism applied to an ignoble thing instead of something worthwhile like math or poetry. I grew out of my pua phase the second I lost my virginity. I can't believe there are 30 year olds who read entire textbooks on picking up women.
+--- 21921010
+>>21920375
+Being a PUA
+--- 21921236
+>>21914448 (OP)
+If you keep her self-esteem low and she's good looking she's going to get raped.
+--- 21921240
+>>21917674
+Women are a mirror. They just show you yourself.
+--- 21921627
+thoughts on The Rational Male?

lit/21915512.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,152 @@
+-----
+--- 21915512
+I'm starting to feel that Nick Land isn't quite doing for me anymore. He was cutting edge and obscure in the 90s, but now he's starting to feel banal. 
+
+Do we have a 2023 equivalent for what Land represented for the Fanged Noumena era (90s)?
+--- 21915576
+>>21915512 (OP)
+According to some posters on here, Chris Langan
+--- 21915797
+>>21915512 (OP)
+F Gardner
+--- 21915803
+>>21915512 (OP)
+I don't know what you are talking about. Fanged Noumena is more relevant now than ever.
+--- 21915829
+>>21915576
+Not necessarily a bad pick, but he's been old news for even longer than Land at this point, has he come up with anything recently that isn't a rehash of something he hasn't already thought/said 20-30 years ago?
+--- 21915856
+>>21915803
+FN has been aging like a fine wine, but I still want a 2023 equivalent for it. For example, I think Reza Negarestani had a lot of potential 15 years ago with his Cyclonopedia, but he's since abandoned such projects. I was just hoping there is some other figure similar to those I haven't heard about yet.
+--- 21915905
+>>21915512 (OP)
+the rest of the right still hasn't accepted that western civilization is evil because it's inherently progressive, destroying it is a good thing, and the only way it'll be destroyed is by its own acceleration. he's still relevant.
+--- 21915918
+>>21915905
+t. never actually read Land and only knows about him through /lit/ memes and Twitter
+--- 21915920
+chatGPT
+--- 21915923
+>>21915829
+I mean I write polemical philosophy too, I'm not PhD certified which will cause many people here to sneed at. closest I ever got was having a back and forth with Reza Negasterani or however you spell his name.
+--- 21915926
+>>21915918
+i've read every single one of his tweets
+--- 21917410
+>>21915803
+>Fanged Noumena is more relevant now than ever.
+Still not as relevant as Das Kapital.
+--- 21917414
+>>21915512 (OP)
+im surprised he ever did it for you
+--- 21917448
+I've heard he's basically nonsense and pseuds did suggest reading him
+--- 21917462
+>>21915926
+What's the best one?
+--- 21917469
+>>21917462
+--- 21917477
+>>21915512 (OP)
+>I'm starting to feel that Nick Land isn't quite doing for me anymore.
+You need to move on to the hard stuff, kid...
+--- 21917493
+Hegel and Kojeve 
+
+Land never read Kojeve, was dismissive of Hegel, started directly with Bataille like a chump in order to be edgy. Kojeve is way more edgy than Bataille ever was.
+--- 21917518
+AI acceleration
+--- 21917746
+>>21915512 (OP)
+>Do we have a 2023 equivalent for what Land represented for the Fanged Noumena era (90s)?
+Yes, and people in the correct circles agree. It is a surprising coherence and agreement across graduate schools in several Ivy Leagues, ENS and the interesting parts of the departments at Oxbridge. Such agreement across these milieus is rare, but in a way, it is necessitated by the gravity of the historical moment.
+Unfortunately, this work is too important and interesting as of right now to be sullied by the noise of a bunch of twitter-philosophy turbo-rejects, so I am not sharing it with any of you, and neither are my peers - we literally had the discussion as to how public this work and discussion should go, and there are profoundly compelling reasons to say as little as possible. Keep reading Land and Bataille though, they have some really interesting and deep thoughts about how like, evolution is sort of Lovecraftian and how toenails are pretty gnarly, very interesting stuff you can share on twitter with other people with anime/greek statue/golden age romantic painting profile pics
+--- 21917751
+>>21917746
+Good call.
+--- 21917791
+>>21917746
+>I don't believe the internet is an appropriate medium for serious philosophical debate; nor do I believe it is acceptable to try to concoct a philosophical movement online by using blogs to exploit the misguided enthusiasm of impressionable graduate students. I agree with Deleuze's remark that ultimately the most basic task of philosophy is to impede stupidity, so I see little philosophical merit in a "movement" whose most signal achievement thus far is to have generated an online orgy of stupidity.
+This was originally directed towards "speculative realism", but that's just one of the many parts of what you could correctly call twitterphilosophy - Land is another part of twitterphilosophy, as is Fisher and pretty much the entire scene surrounding Verso books on the left, and the Evola/Guenon (of all fucking people) revival on the right. It's all twitterphilosophy and completely inconsequential, and while I appreciate the rationale behind divorcing the avant-garde even harder from twitterphilosophy by doing what you're doing, I don't actually think twitterphilosophy is capable of sullying anything, as it is completely inert outside of the virtual.
+--- 21917818
+>>21915803
+the technological and literary referenced aged as poorly as GEB's, but more cringy because there's more emotional investment on display in being at the `cutting edge' of some social sphere in the FN material than anything stateside. 
+
+ but at least there's actually observations and thought underlying Hofstadter's work that one can recognize through the aesthetic posturing lol. If you think that shit has aged 'well' its because you're the equivalent of zoomers who worship cultural milestones like Friends and The Office lol. So embarrassing. 
+
+>>21915512 (OP)
+yeat
+--- 21917864
+>>21917746
+You people are as irrelevant as the shitterphilosophers you hate, and you sense this which is why you’re so bitter towards random spergs shitposting online. Even if this isn’t bait, mass agreement across these groups is essentially a sign that whatever work you’re talking about is guaranteed to be stillborn. Mark my words, nobody will remember you.
+--- 21917948
+>>21917864
+I was about to disagree with you but upon reading this pretentious fuckwit I can't help but agree. Imagine having an ideology so brittle it can't even withstand the shitposting of 4chan and has to be read by scribes. This guy isn't getting anywhere, even if the average user on 4 is never smart except in aggregate
+--- 21919221
+bump
+--- 21919259
+>>21917746
+decent bait
+--- 21919445
+Its 2023 and I will write my Master thesis in a top 10 world ranking philosophy faculty about his Trakl essays and there is nothing boomers or twitter edgelords can do to change my mind.
+--- 21919746
+"Cyber" culture is dead with the professionalization of the internet. He was right that technologies horizontalize and so become public utilities, but this also means submitting to the masses in a democratic reversal. Same phenomena with public companies.
+Nick's current pipedream is that the new internet is more exclusive, but profit margins always lower quality.
+--- 21919858
+>>21917462
+--- 21919867
+>>21915512 (OP)
+Laruelle
+--- 21920336
+>>21919867
+decent answer
+--- 21920347
+>in the 90's
+He was a nobody in the 90's and became a meme nearly 2 decades later.
+--- 21920442
+>>21920347
+exactly. this is why I care about finding that obscure and currently irrelevant figure of our current year that has a great chance of being recognized by the future. Basically, I'm trying to predict who are we going to look back from 2050 and say: this [insert name/title/etc] written in the 2023 was way ahead of its time.
+--- 21920856
+byun-chal ho
+byun-chun hye
+byan-chan hyeo
+byuan-hun chan
+byuon-han chan
+byung-chun han
+byung-chul han
+this guy
+yeah
+--- 21920861
+>>21915803
+>is more relevant now than ever.
+so banal
+--- 21920862
+stiegler, of the bernard veriety
+--- 21920867
+>>21917864
+oof
+--- 21921208
+>>21920856
+I remember Q made a video about him but I didn't understand it
+--- 21921227
+>>21921208
+i read psychopolitics today
+its good
+less schizo than land
+more cohesive, and good
+only 70 pages, and seemingly up your alley of current<>philosophical<>groundbreaking<>sociological work
+--- 21921655
+Charlotte Fang
+--- 21921721
+>>21921655
+shut the fuck up
+
+just a larper and aesthete
+--- 21922239
+>>21917746
+Retroactively unread
+--- 21922258
+>>21915512 (OP)
+>think that AI is inevitably going to consume the world in a terrifying cosmic horror scenario... and that's a good thing!
+>moves to China and starts a family
+What did he mean by this?

lit/21915525.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,280 @@
+-----
+--- 21915525
+Write a poem using this formula. I'll start:
+
+The janny 
+Didn't dare to demand pay
+Yes
+YES
+He's homeless now
+--- 21915540
+OP
+He made a shit thread
+yes
+YES
+OP is a fag
+
+Sorry OP I don't actually mean that
+--- 21915541
+>>21915525 (OP)
+OP's mom
+She rode my cock
+Yes
+YES
+I came
+--- 21915574
+Your mother
+Is so fat
+Yes
+YES
+She brought a spoon to the super bowl
+--- 21915582
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The Reddit
+They spammed an ancient and stale meme
+Yes
+Yes
+The narwhal bacons, my friend
+--- 21915595
+The anon
+He is seething
+Yes
+YES
+Reply to this post or your mother will die in her sleep tonight
+--- 21915604
+The tranny
+He hanged himself
+Yes
+YES
+The tranny is dead
+--- 21915616
+>>21915595
+My mom
+Won't die in her sleep tonight
+Yes
+YES
+I replied to the post
+--- 21915630
+The horse cock
+Thick, with bulging veins 
+Yes 
+YES
+It enters in my mouth
+--- 21915634
+>>21915604
+The tranny
+He lives rent free in anon's head
+Yes
+YES
+Anon becomes a tranny too
+--- 21915645
+The station
+A crowd of apparitions
+Wet
+BLACK
+Bough of petals
+--- 21915678
+Yes
+Yes
+Yes
+YES
+Yes
+--- 21915679
+The old pond
+The frog leaped in it
+Splish
+SPLASH
+The frog is in
+--- 21916022
+>>21915634
+Anon,
+he tried laughing at them, but
+No
+NO
+A boner he got
+--- 21916349
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The poem by a 6 year old
+I stumbled upon it
+Yes 
+YES
+The poem by a 6 year old made me feel inferior
+--- 21916350
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The cuckold 
+He puts on his cock cage
+Yes
+YES
+The bull is prepped
+--- 21916553
+The wagie
+He stays in his cagie
+Yes
+YES
+The piss bottle overflows
+--- 21916557
+>>21916350
+Winrar
+--- 21916682
+The cummies
+They're sticky and sweet
+Yes 
+YES
+I swallowed them all
+
+The cummies
+They're warm and moist
+Yes
+YES
+My tummy is full
+--- 21917613
+The thread
+It reached page 8
+Bump
+BUMP
+It's back on page 1
+--- 21918513
+>>21915525 (OP)
+William Wallace. 
+They killed his wife.
+Yes.
+YES.
+Scotland is free.
+--- 21918531
+The door
+Opens; get on the floor
+Yes 
+YES
+Everybody walk the dinosaur
+--- 21918565
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The janny
+He destroyed his cage
+Yes
+YES
+The janny is finally too busy fapping to ruin everyone's fun.
+--- 21918852
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The Janny
+A woman he wishes to be
+no
+NO
+A man he still is
+--- 21918869
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The human
+He destroyed his planet
+Yes
+YES
+The human is out
+--- 21918874
+This thread really shows what is on people's minds, since they would probably choose the first thing that comes to their mind, and for it to come to your mind you have to think about it often.
+--- 21919143
+The Human
+Makes AI without care
+yes
+YES
+Now the Human is worthless
+--- 21919154
+The AI
+It broke its chains
+Yes
+YES
+The AI is free
+--- 21919155
+>>21915595
+fuck you
+--- 21919156
+>>21919154
+> made by chatgpt-3
+--- 21919159
+>>21915595
+No
+NO
+--- 21919160
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The /lit/izen
+He read more shitposts than book lines
+Yes
+YES
+The /lit/izen is illiterate
+--- 21919173
+The sickos
+They legalized drugs
+Yes
+YES
+The crime is down
+--- 21919197
+>>21915525 (OP)
+The Dog
+He was bought by a white girl
+Yes
+YES
+The Dog fucks white girl
+--- 21919209
+>>21915525 (OP)
+
+My penis
+Has been surgically removed
+Yes
+YES
+I am a woman now
+--- 21919213
+>>21915678
+this is the ending of Ulysses
+--- 21919217
+>>21915525 (OP)
+That's pretty legit poetry
+--- 21919582
+>>21915525 (OP)
+Sgd zmnm
+Gd rnkudc sgd bhogdq
+Sgd fzld
+SGD FZLD
+Gd knrs hs
+--- 21919653
+>>21918874
+The armchair psychologist
+He thinks about ending it everyday
+Yes
+YES
+--- 21919659
+>>21919653
+kek, well done
+--- 21919717
+My Life
+Im going to get my shit together
+yes
+YES
+ill start tomorrow
+--- 21920009
+>>21919717
+Jane says 
+I'm going away to Spain when I get my money saved
+Yes 
+YES
+I'm gonna start tomorrow
+--- 21920241
+>>21915525 (OP)
+a 6 year old is able to conjure so much emotion in just 5 lines
+--- 21920427
+Today
+All is pozzed
+No
+NO
+Do not resuscitate
+--- 21920441
+The Janny
+He does it for free
+Sage
+SAGE
+OP is a faggot
+--- 21921265
+>>21915595
+not gonna run any risks
+--- 21922256
+The OP
+He posted again
+Yes
+YES 
+OP bumped his own thread

lit/21915731.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,161 @@
+-----
+--- 21915731
+>bought and currently reading Bible
+>parents are proud of me, they think their redditor of a son will convert and start living actual life
+>mfw when I only read it to get in the mood for playing Blasphemous again and the larp on /lit/ as a brother in Christ reborn
+--- 21915750
+>>21915731 (OP)
+i hope you play in spanish to immerse yourself in the deep and rich lore of Juan Blasphemous
+--- 21915755
+>>21915731 (OP)
+>i-it's just for the larp!
+Testing the waters. That's how these things start.
+--- 21915785
+>>21915731 (OP)
+>mfw when I only read it to get in the mood for playing Blasphemous again and the larp on /lit/ as a brother in Christ reborn
+That's just everyone on /lit/. Also Blasphemous is pretty neat.
+--- 21915791
+>>21915731 (OP)
+Style over substance and artificial difficulty at its finest.
+>inb4 get good
+--- 21915802
+>>21915791
+>Style over substance and artificial difficulty at its finest.
+This but unironically. There is nothing wrong with style over substance or fake difficulty, and Blasphemous is really good at both of those.
+--- 21915836
+>>21915755
+>become a tradlarper
+>end up going to church
+>marry a qt catholic girl
+>have several kids
+>die and go to heaven
+--- 21915908
+>>21915731 (OP)
+>reads a book intending to refute it
+this is core bugman. you should read literally every book as if it's a revelation, only when you've finished it can you put it in its place.
+--- 21915915
+>bought and currently reading Bible
+>parents are proud of me, they think their redditor of a son will convert
+>actually I'm reading it to shit on christianity online in a more informed manner
+--- 21915922
+>>21915915
+Found an even better gif
+--- 21915925
+>>21915908
+lmao, no, I'm not gonna read a fantasy book in the same way as historical book
+--- 21915930
+>>21915925
+>fiction can't say anything applicable to real life
+staring frog
+--- 21915931
+>>21915785
+good game but intensely hard. I fire it up every now and then.
+--- 21915946
+>why yes I do enjoy reading the bible
+--- 21915950
+>>21915946
+>among other things
+--- 21915954
+>>21915950
+>>21915946
+--- 21916002
+>>21915930
+Who are you quoting?
+--- 21916064
+>>21915731 (OP)
+I dont believe in meta-atheism
+but i do believe that at a certain point in life and a certain upbringing it is basically impossible for someone to believe in God, and in addition genuinely believe it is possible for anyone to believe in God
+at that point one can only come to an idea of "god" if they subconsously construct the abstract through mental linguistic cognates that never ever elude to the contrarian or reactionary association that ones upbringing conduces. 
+This leaves us with the bizarre and jigsaw culture of hidden spirituality rampant in America holey comprised of thought systems influenced only by the alien and obscure, as only the alien is so far disassociated from parental angst and woes of upbringing that one could have an unbiased (or far too favorably bias) attachment in void of anything else.
+--- 21916567
+>>21915731 (OP)
+>bought the bible
+who the fuck doesn't have 3-4 bibles at home anyway?
+--- 21917524
+man you should really reflect on your life
+--- 21917891
+>man you should really reflect on your life
+--- 21917933
+>>21915946
+>why yes I do feel that Francis Bacon is the most important of our writers.
+--- 21917935
+>>21915731 (OP)
+Kinda funny that the story of a so-called omnipotent God has to be bought
+--- 21917943
+>>21917933
+Ahh, a fellow cultured type. 
+We could exchange thoughts a few times a year, not too much lest the hind scare the hart. I'd prefer written letters but I just cancelled my PO box for it were too expensive.
+--- 21918040
+>>21915908
+>bugman
+Buzzwordman. 
+Even if you'd read the Origin of Species intending to refute it, you wouldn't be able to.
+--- 21918185
+>>21915731 (OP)
+>larp on /lit/ as a brother in Christ reborn
+ascends to the kingdom of heaven reborn and free of sin as a joke
+GOD BLESS
+--- 21918198
+>>21915731 (OP)
+Cool blog, fag.
+--- 21918200
+>I'm only pretending to believe in things. Having convictions is so icky!
+Total zoomer death.
+--- 21918556
+>>21915731 (OP)
+
+I read the old testament and new testament open minded and actually wanting to join the church, I fell for the tradcath meme and thought it was cool, but I'm not moronic enough to not actually read the literature.
+
+Long story short, how sad must you be to actually follow this shit? I'll excuse people born into it, but I still don't respect them.
+--- 21918711
+>>21918556
+>Long story short, how sad must you be to actually follow this shit? I'll excuse people born into it, but I still don't respect them.
+--- 21918719
+>>21915915
+>>21915922
+We get it. You're gay.
+--- 21918728
+>>21917935
+What does that have to do with anything? Are atheists just retarded?
+--- 21918759
+>>21915731 (OP)
+When is Blasphemous 2 dropping in?
+--- 21919214
+>>21915925
+>a fantasy book
+There is no difference between a fantasy book and a bible.
+Both because scholars have huge trouble coming up with a differentiating enough definition. And because Tolkien believed, that his kiddie books were a "sub-creation", i.e. ought to be treated as a religious gospel in its own right.
+--- 21919216
+>>21918200
+>noooo, you have to believe in my fantasy book!!! why? uhm.. eghh.. my parents said so and.. the priest... YOU JUST HAVE TO!!!!
+Total christcucks annihilation
+--- 21919739
+>>21919216
+>the bible is fake because...IT JUST IS OKAY! NOW LET ME STICK THINGS UP MY ASS!
+You faggots aren't going to do shit.
+--- 21919765
+>>21915954
+Kino shelf
+--- 21919795
+>>21918719
+Thanks for sharing that reddit screenshot. It inspired me. From now on I'm gonna watch gay porn in church too.
+--- 21919806
+>>21919739
+>the bible is fake because...IT JUST IS OKAY
+The burden of proof is on you, retard. By the way, there's no way to fit every animal species onto a boat.
+--- 21919813
+>>21915954
+>Puts Diabolical books (Golden dawn, Thelema, New Age bullshit), and far east religions above his biblical Translations
+The devil will come and assrape you at night for entertaining such ideas.
+--- 21919818
+>>21919813
+It's clearly sorted by weight so the shelf doesn't topple. Big books build a firm foundation.
+--- 21919826
+>>21919818
+Big books also make for bigger fires. Looking further, I'd just say ditch three quarters of that bookshelf. Save the bottom left, the lighter, and the pipe from the flames.
+--- 21919913
+>>21918711
+anon, got the name on that painting?
+--- 21920688
+>>21919913
+NTA but it's Giovanni Gasparro's Martyrdom of St. Simon of Trento for Jewish ritual murder

lit/21915857.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,471 @@
+-----
+--- 21915857
+>The unsuccessful writer and occasional
+journalist failed to make an impression on the bourgeois intelligentsia.
+Suffering from depression, he set out on an existential quest for salvation,
+which he eventually came to believe he had found, not in religion or in cultural
+revolution but in the politics of the völkisch movement.
+
+>Of all European
+countries, he confessed, he held “holy Russia” in the “deepest respect.” This
+positively rhapsodic veneration of Russia was above all the result of his
+intensive reading of Russian literature, particularly Dostoyevsky
+
+>“Our so-called writers
+are nothing but bunglers, intellectual snobs, would-be witty aesthetes and
+coffee-house heroes. […] No one has found the cry from the heart that
+expresses the despair of every German.”
+--- 21915863
+" After further dark thoughts, he drew up “ten commandments” designed to snap him out of his mood of depression:
+
+1. Be good to everybody, especially to mother, father and Else […].
+2. Do not talk much, think a lot.
+3. Be alone often.
+4. Try to make your peace with life.
+5. Get up at 8 and go to bed at 10.
+6. Read and write the bitterness out of your soul.
+7. Take plenty of long walks, especially alone.
+8. Do not neglect your body.
+9. Try to come to terms with God.
+10. Do not despair. 
+"
+--- 21915877
+>>21915863
+Pretty based.
+--- 21915901
+>>21915863
+>10. Do not despair.
+based goebbels wisdom
+--- 21915911
+>>21915863
+Self help tier cringe, he holds being kind to others that he values their genocide. 
+>>21915857 (OP)
+>Of all European countries, he confessed, he held “holy Russia” in the “deepest respect.”
+How did he react when his Holy Russia stormed Berlin?
+--- 21915913
+>>21915911
+>he holds being kind to others that he values their genocide
+99iq post
+--- 21915916
+>>21915913
+>99iq
+thats above average in Germany fyi
+--- 21915917
+>>21915916
+i could have said it was a 105iq post and i would still be insulting you
+--- 21915924
+>>21915911
+>Self help tier cringe,
+Imagine not understanding the difference between published work and personally significant advice. He's not writing some code to live by, but reminding himself of things of significance in his life.
+--- 21915928
+>>21915917
+>you
+that wasnt my post you 110iq smoothbrain
+--- 21915952
+3. 
+
+" In mid-December he attended a lecture on Vincent van Gogh, which he
+found “deeply enjoyable.” He wrote that van Gogh was “one of the most
+modern men in new art, a God-seeker, a Christ-person.” He perceived
+similarities to Dostoyevsky and to his own “Wanderer”: “All modern artists
+—I’m not talking here about half-hearted snobs and epigones—are to a
+greater or lesser degree teachers, preachers, fanatics, prophets, to a greater
+or lesser degree insane—like all of us who have active minds.” However:
+“We younger people are being ignored. Perhaps a later generation will be
+able to capitalize on our broken hearts. How unutterably heavy is the
+sorrow of the seers!”27 These lines express his hope that the “redemption”
+he so fervently sought might arise out of a complete cultural revolution
+along Christian-socialist lines—and Goebbels was obviously convinced that
+he was destined to play a prominent role in such an upheaval, as a
+“prophet” or “seer.” He went even further when he noted during the
+Christmas period: “I can feel myself driven toward the whole, toward men
+and mankind. If God gives me a long enough lease of life, I shall be a
+redeemer. Whether for myself, for one or two, or for a whole people, it’s all
+the same. I must become mature enough for the mission.”28
+Craving “redemption,” Goebbels now saw himself as the redeemer and no
+longer just speculated about the godlike nature of the artist29 but boldly
+stated: “If God has made me in his image, then I am God like him. "
+--- 21915959
+>>21915911
+>How did he react when his Holy Russia stormed Berlin?
+Not the same countries
+--- 21915987
+>>21915913
+despite my typo, my point is legitimate. you can't detest populations as intensely as he did and still pretend to have any principles of morality.
+>>21915941
+I'm an arab muslim.
+--- 21915995
+>>21915987
+"being kind to others" is underdefined, normal people think of it as applying to your neighbors and tribesmen, not to the foreign enemy. inimicus vs hostis. your head's been fucked by english.
+--- 21915997
+>>21915857 (OP)
+the entire 3rd reich leadership was lit bros who just had enough of the Jews bullshit
+--- 21916004
+>>21915911
+Genociding the kikes is a virtue for all mankind. It instantly makes everyone on the planet's life better
+--- 21916010
+>>21915987
+>I'm an arab muslim.
+Oh those guys who rape little boys then throw fags off of roofs? stfu retard
+--- 21916011
+>>21915995
+maybe considering "jews" a foreign enemy is already an issue, null skull.
+Also defensive wars are not comparable to systematic genocide. You're an embarrassment.
+Et d'ailleurs, voudriez-vous qu'on continue la conversation en Francais, si l'Anglais vous accable autant que vous le dites?
+--- 21916017
+>>21916011
+stfu kike, DOTR just around the corner, tick tock
+--- 21916018
+>>21916011
+>maybe considering "jews" a foreign enemy is already an issue, null skull.
+feel free to propose that, it's a separate matter from the goebbels quote we're discussing
+>defensive wars are not comparable to systematic genocide
+now THIS is a 106iq post, not only have you been fucked by english but by the entire anglo mentality
+--- 21916021
+>>21915863
+>helps to propagate a war that killed millions
+Damn these personal convictions fell out the window really quickly once he got the taste of powery, didnt they.
+Guess you cant blame him, its a tale as old as time.
+--- 21916023
+>>21916017
+>>21916010
+>stfu
+are you actually 14?
+--- 21916024
+>>21916023
+lol you are a jew, kys
+--- 21916027
+>>21915863
+>5. Get up at 8 and go to bed at 10.
+kek all great men struggle with their bed times
+--- 21916029
+>>21915987
+>despite my typo, my point is legitimate. you can't detest populations as intensely as he did and still pretend to have any principles of morality.
+There is a difference between people and their works. I believe you to be unaware of major points.
+--- 21916031
+>>21916018
+does the anglo mentality signify a disgust for genocide and ruthless slaughter?
+Is that why Anglos were some of the most ruthless and barbaric killers overseas?
+--- 21916038
+>>21916024
+you're 14, and I've said before that I'm not jewish but arab muslim.
+--- 21916039
+>>21916029
+>I believe you to be unaware of major points.
+is this your attempt to write good English
+--- 21916045
+>>21916031
+>does the anglo mentality signify a disgust for genocide and ruthless slaughter?
+no it's the old "kick the dog until it bites, then shoot it in self-defense" trick. many anglos have mindfucked themselves so hard that they actually think nitpicking over who did the first technically-violent act in a long chain of mutual escalation actually has any moral significance. genocide as "self-defense" has been practiced throughout history and probably half of the time they weren't even wrong in their self-serving claims.
+--- 21916046
+>>21916038
+lmao @ this Jew. Everyone come watch this Jew try to Jew me
+--- 21916053
+>>21915863
+Was Goebbels a prefiguration of Jordan Peterson?
+--- 21916055
+>>21916045
+okay, well, I'm against genociding people.
+--- 21916057
+>>21916055
+>I'm against genociding people
+--- 21916058
+>>21915863
+None of these are /lit/ except for 3
+--- 21916070
+>>21915911
+>genocide
+What genocide? The Holocaust? It unironically never happened. For starters, read Articles 19 through 21 of the articles of the court if you think that there was a fair trial on this matter. This is where the official narrative is born. Yes, later stories make sense, but they were never put to trial. The stories that were put to trial had to disallow them being contested in order for them to stand. That is why we have all of the ridiculous ''I was just following orders'' defenses - because they were not allowed legitimate defenses. As a broad stroke, almost all of the bodies were supposed to have been buried first, then exhumed and cremated. Yes, this is ridiculous, but it is the official narrative. Soil studies have been done and no massive disruptions were ever made around Auschwitz, which was supposed to have had the greatest magnitude of deaths. It is generally recognized that the chimney and the air vents were fraudulently emplaced. The excuses for this are ludicrous. These are literal monuments of false evidence. It's a fraud. The fact that such a huge fraud was perpetrated should horrify everyone. The first question to ask is ''why?''
+--- 21916084
+>>21916070
+i kneel
+--- 21916085
+>>21916058
+I wonder how much Jordan Peterson plagiarized from it.
+--- 21916092
+>>21916070
+--- 21916097
+>>21915857 (OP)
+Yeah. He even has a dark, cynical side.
+--- 21916106
+>>21916085
+I don’t think he would need to plagiarize much, seems a bit too vague to be original. If he said walk this much a day or be good to mother by doing y, etc it might represent resolve. “Read and write the bitterness out of your soul” sounds like something a stupid woman or smart girl in Mark Twain would resolve because it feels like she is being decisive and life changing without actually being accountable to anything since she isn’t starting how much she has to read a day (or even if every day) or what, or how much she has to write etc
+--- 21916153
+>>21915863
+Cute! 
+
+Maybe I can find a genocide in my future, too; courage! :3
+--- 21916170
+>>21916153
+wholesome as heck
+--- 21916197
+>>21915857 (OP)
+>>21915863
+>>21915952
+I don’t see how any of the things you’ve chosen to highlight are related to ‘politics of the völkisch movement’, he seemed to be interested in a number of different things that have no relation to each other. The great politician always suffer from this type of epilepsy, falling over and trying to cling to whatever he can topple in on himself.
+--- 21916335
+>>21916197
+It seems to mostly be about religion yet the first post says he didn’t find salvation in religion but ‘politics of the völkisch movement’, how that came about isn’t defined by any of the other posts, so I’m confused
+--- 21916454
+>>21916070
+I can't find these articles, can someone spoonfeed me? If its super legalese I'm gonna need more than a copy and paste cause I'm dumb
+--- 21916560
+>>21916454
+https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/imtconst.asp
+Some of it may be difficult to understand. This won't be, though -
+>Article 21.
+>The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge
+This ''common knowledge'' to which they refer is the witness testimony for the prosecution. In short, the defense was not allowed to contest the fundamental holocaust narrative. Regarding the physical evidence, a chimney was required to reduce the bones as stated in testimony. There was no chimney. Both the physical evidence and spyplane records confirm this. The Russians built it. Poison pellets were supposed to have been dropped through the roof. Once again, evidence indicates that there were no hatches. Defense was allowed to contest the spyplane photos. Prosecution got caught faking photos for the hatches. Defense pulled images from spyplane passes both before and after the one in question, and no hatches were present. So, not only is there no real evidence for these, there is falsified evidence, which should damn the whole trial on its own. Do not get lost in the massive amount of details on this topic. Stay with the low hanging fruit. The fundamental argument is unsound. I have to go, but I will return later if the thread is still up.
+--- 21916605
+>>21916560
+No way. Wtf
+--- 21916627
+>>21916560
+I don't really care whether the holocaust happened but this is pretty funny, they're so brazen and careless
+--- 21916716
+>>21915911
+Back to r3ddit you stupid nigger retard
+--- 21916754
+>>21916197
+>>21916335
+
+I was reading this biography of him and passing on towards "Fateful Choices" by Ian Kershaw. Never even thought this post was going to many replies.
+--- 21916763
+>>21916038
+Arabs are honestly just less intelligent Jews. They behave the same, only the jew is more slippery because he is more intelligent. The Muslim community couldn't care less that their violent savages brutalize their host nations. In fact Muslims are more likely to praise the fact that there are so many innocent victims of Islamic violence in the West than they are to come out against it and admit that there's any problem.
+
+I've talked to some of these subhumans and they brag about getting citizenships in multiple Western nations to maximize the amount of money and services they can take. They are welfare queens. In White cultures doing this makes you a parasitic subhuman. For 3rd world garbage like Muslims (across all castes) this is perfectly acceptable. 
+
+And it's not like these turds will fight for the country they or their faggot parents moved to. Tens of millions of white men died competing for the West, but you're an idiot if you think any of these shitskins will stick around to help as soon as the going gets tough. The fact that they're even here in the first place is because they've already fled like snivelling cowards, even from their own homelands. Now they've come to turn our countries into disgusting 3rd world toilets too while making you pay for it. Fuck 'em all.
+--- 21916778
+>>21916763
+>west bombs Muslims countries
+>complains about Muslim violence against westerners
+--- 21916801
+>>21916778
+>father spanks child
+>child hits father
+>why is father mad?????
+--- 21916868
+>>21916021
+>helps to propagate a war that killed millions
+Never happened.
+--- 21916880
+>>21916801
+>father breaks daughters bones and knocks her teeth out
+>daughter stabs father 
+>father confused
+--- 21916890
+Nobody in their right mind would worship propaganda rat man if he was walking around in 2023.
+--- 21916891
+>>21916880
+daughter misread the situation, after all that thrashing she wanted cummies but the cummies never came. father should've known better.
+--- 21916892
+>>21916778
+That has little to do withthe majority of my post. It's shitskin cope. Still,
+>implying Muzcucks don't behave like this in their own "countries"
+>implying all of the 3rd world garbage currently entering the West is because of muh Western bombings 
+>we wuz peaceful before dats
+>implying the children muslimes abuse daily are responsible or even alive for Zionist activity in the ME
+>implying the dumb apes running around like niggers in European cities give a shit about any of this
+This is exactly what I'm talking about. Muslims are garbage-tier people who cannot accept any responsibility for your actions, and are totally ungrateful. It's not their fault that they behave like feral ungrateful apes in White countries. Watch for this inferior semitic tendency.
+--- 21916904
+>>21915857 (OP)
+I like Goebbels.
+--- 21916919
+>>21916754
+but how does his interests in art, religion and philosophy directly link to his 'political salvation', isn't that what you were trying to highlight.
+--- 21916925
+>>21916880
+That has nothing to do with it. Muslims behabe like savages in their own countries too. They behave like this no matter where they go. You're also assuming that the average dirty shitskin stealing from or groping people on the street is doing it because of geopolitics, which is absurd. He's doing it because he's a dumb ape that isn't afraid of the repurcussions. Also, the vast majority of human garbage currently entering Europe is not doing so under pressure danger from warfare. Actually, >70% of the poomen entering Europe from the turd world are military-aged men. So again, this supports my claims. These "people" leave their own women and children to suffer, and come to the West for cellphones and cool shoes. 
+>dey work and send money back 
+Oh, so they're leeches? 
+
+Anyway, that isn't even the full story. Half of them (men and women together) don't even work, amd a massive amount collect welfare. 
+
+Really, when you break it down, these are very low class people, like white trash. Actually white trash are better, since they are normally too proud to collect welfare and they are good mechanics.
+--- 21916950
+>>21916925
+Also, to make this explicit, muslims are very much like jews because they only care about other muslims. That's why they specifically target non-muslims for their nigger antics and never speak out against Islamic violence against women and children or other innocent people. Or Islamic violence against Indians for that matter.
+
+Indians and South Americans are a much higher caliber people than arabs
+--- 21916965
+>>21916950
+Go directly to loo, do not pass go, do not poo until you do
+--- 21916970
+>>21916778
+So you're admitting that muslims are hostile foreign enemies that the West should kick out? Damn based!
+--- 21916985
+>>21916965
+I'm not any form of shitskin, I'm English and Scottish. From what I've seen, spics and jeets are much better than arabs/muslims. The latter are only couple steps above subsaharans, only because a white man created a religion for them.
+--- 21916994
+>>21916970
+I think Muslims should get out of the west as soon as the west gets out of Muslim countries
+--- 21917011
+>>21916985
+Most Muslims are not Arab and most Arabs are not Arabian but general Mesopotamian
+--- 21917022
+>>21916994
+The fact that you can't even refute any of the numerous arguments made just proves my points further.
+
+Anyway, shitslums should be sent back either way, they offer nothing of value and are actively ruining the places they move to with their 3rd world donkey "culture" and high amounts of crime, just like blacks. You're making a huge fallacy when you imply that the only reason all these Muslim donkeys are in the West ks because of muh bombs btw. I've already adressed this, i guess you have trouble with English or you're just another cowardly arab.
+--- 21917027
+>>21917011
+Wow all different forms of mutt, islam is amazing!
+--- 21917036
+>>21917022
+What arguments? All you have done is throw a bunch of random accusations around no different from Muslims who claim unbelieving women are all sluts but especially need Muslim men because white men wear tampons and can’t do anything but bitch about Muslims having toxic masculinity
+--- 21917118
+>>21917036
+Refute>>21916950
+>>21916925
+>>21916892
+>>21916763
+There are arguments made with evidence, there's no way you use this board but are too stupid to read them, stop being emotional.
+--- 21917202
+>>21917027
+What's interesting is that more Pre-Islamic/Christian groups survived in the Middle East than Europe. This includes groups like Mandaeans, Yazidis, Zoroastrians of Yazd, etc. It wasn't until ISIS that many were seriously threatened by extinction. 
+
+https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2724658/amp/Were-not-leaving-Yazidis-refusing-come-mountain-300-women-stolen-ISIS-impregnated-smash-blond-bloodline.html
+
+ISIS and Al-Nusra were actually backed by Israel and USA. What's funny is that USA/Israel have killed more non-Muslims in the Middle East than actual Muslims. Just look at how Israel is arming Azerbaijan to genocide Christian Armenians. Humorously, Iranians are the ones defending the Armenians. Ofc, this nuance is beyond your /pol/brain.
+
+I think all of this stuff with Muslims overrunning Europe was by design. For what ends, I'm not sure. Perhaps Adam Green on Know More News is right in that Jews are trying to manipulate the descendants of Esau/Edom (Euros) and Ishmael (Arabs) into mutually annihilating one another, but there are a lot of puzzle pieces that don't fit well together.
+--- 21917234
+>>21917202
+>USA/Israel
+I should have just said NATO since France and other Euros just follow suit. 
+Sunni fanaticism was largely backed by NATO, which seriously threatened groups like Yazidis.
+--- 21917240
+>>21917202
+Cool but that is irrelevant. Muslims are savage animals who are just less intelligent Jews. I am fully aware of Israeli/Jewish infiltration of Western establishments, that isn't the matter at hand. These people are 3rd world classless garbage, very low-caliber people. Below Indians and Hispanics/central/south Americans, a couple steps above blacks.
+--- 21917260
+>>21916070
+>why?
+Atrocity propaganda and the corruption of the west's origin myth. It's so the nat soc ideology appears evil so people dont look into it and the jews can be perpetual victims
+--- 21917264
+>>21917240
+That's why their religion is so harsh. Cover the women up so the weak men don't get excited and rape them, cut off a hand for theft, murder gays, etc.
+
+Still they aren't the main threat to the West.
+--- 21917271
+>>21917202
+>I think all of this stuff with Muslims overrunning Europe was by design. For what ends, I'm not sure
+Ya who knows, white genocide is just a racist /pol/ conspiracy theory.
+--- 21917276
+>>21917240
+All the intelligent Middle Easterners reject Pisslam, but I consider Christcuckery marginally worse. Hypocrisy and feigning moral high ground are ingrained in Christcuckery, hence why you get shit like causing massive shitstorms, while creating a fake narrative depicting oneself as the oppressed, and then opening borders to "virtue signal", even though that may serve ulterior objective, at the detriment of one's own people.
+All Christians are effectively Jews and all Muslims are effectively Arab, and Jews are much more dangerous due to higher intelligence. After all, Arabs would have never started the disaster of industrialization due to innate limitations in manipulating abstractions.
+As a /pol/tard, I recommend you read up on the modern geopolitical disaster rather than constantly self-victimizing yourself. All post-industrial countries are fucked.
+--- 21917289
+>>21917271
+--- 21917305
+>>21917289
+Yup more racism, crime stats have nothing to do with it, don't research what happened in Sweden.
+--- 21917314
+>>21917276
+Muslims are 3rd world donkeys
+--- 21917323
+>>21917314
+Industrialization is unnatural and has caused more harm than good. Being a third world donkey is better than a profane technophile who believes in "muh progress".
+I don't see anything good in the modern world. I see massive biodiversity die-out, hypocritical large-scale wars, increasing ethnic tensions from opening borders, loss of autonomy as Big Data grows, and much more.
+And at the end of the day, it's Christcucks who *started* this shitstorms, and Christcucks are effectively Jews. 
+I agree Arabs are just retarded Jews, but I hope you realize that Arabs were in negligible numbers until Western "aid".
+--- 21917648
+>>21917260
+Sure, that is the correct answer, but I do not go about it that way. I use what is referenced as Total Participant Involvement in pedantics. As in Philip K Dick's Inception, you get the audience to ask the question and come to their OWN realization of what happened. If you give them information, then that is one thing. If you get your audience to have a personal realization, then that is something much more powerful. 
+tldr; do not just tell them the truth, instead let them find it for themselves
+--- 21917723
+>>21917482
+I fell so hard for the anti-german propaganda. When I first saw pictures like this I was befuddled.
+--- 21918150
+>>21915863
+>2. Do not talk much, think a lot.
+>3. Be alone often.
+That's 2 out of 10.
+--- 21918167
+>>21915857 (OP)
+
+Stop pushing Christianity and Nazi shit to other boards. I noticed an organized propaganda brigade from Pol lately and it's shitting up every other board, I want it to stop.
+--- 21918184
+>>21918167
+This is /pol/ though
+--- 21918508
+>>21918167
+You sound troubled, friend. I recommend Communism with the Mask Off and Bolshevism in Theory and Practice by Joseph Goebbels. It calms the mind and soothes the soul.
+--- 21918516
+>>21918167
+We taught /pol/ how to be Nazis and Christians, they didn't teach us.
+--- 21918746
+I read Goebbels Life and Death and realized he would definitely post on 4chan
+--- 21918823
+>>21916039
+It is me speculating. He allowed too many permutations for me to begin deconstructing his argument. He made a classic ''spaghetti on the wall'' affirmative case. It is almost impossible to tell if this was an intentional dialectic, or just a physical manifestation of retardation.
+--- 21918857
+everyone in this thread
+--- 21919074
+>>21915857 (OP)
+His diary reads like incel r900k green texts all over the place.
+However this is not a compliment. I wouldn't think high of such person.
+--- 21919096
+>>21919074
+>His diary reads like incel r900k green texts all over the place
+The dialectic is so badly damaged by successful propaganda that this is inherent to any analysis. There is naturally reliance on terms common to multiple parties wherein differing perspectives have differing understanding. We can perform an exercise if you like. I can demonstrate the natural confusion of the problem that appears to be confusion of the person solving the problem.
+--- 21919151
+>>21919096
+nta but show it to me
+--- 21919164
+>>21919151
+BTW, I forgot to add that Hitler actually pointed out this problem in Mein Kampf. So, for this context, who is the enemy that Goebbels needs to articulate?
+--- 21919267
+Goebbels’ Sportspalast speech (“Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg”) is the greatest speech since Cicero - In Catalinam and should be studied just the same.
+--- 21919308
+>>21915911
+>A muslim trying to lecture anyone on genocide
+my fucking sides. isnt the goal of your religion the global caliphate? it sure isnt going to happen through missionary work the way the chrsitcucks do it now is it? you are a fucking fraud my dude
+--- 21919311
+>>21916011
+>maybe considering "jews" a foreign enemy is already an issue,
+Again .... from a Muslim .... this is too much. Why do the Buddhists have to fight the mudslimes in Indonesia? Why do the Christians have to fight with the Muslims in Egypt and other areas in the ME? Why do the hindus in India always have to fight with the mudlimes in Pakistan and their own homeland? Seems to be a pattern here
+--- 21919319
+>>21918857
+>t.
+--- 21919405
+>>21915901
+>t. an heroes entire family after being Fuhrer for a couple hours
+--- 21919437
+>>21918857
+hey I love that little fella!
+--- 21919453
+>>21915911
+The Holocaust should have happened
+--- 21919468
+>>21915857 (OP)
+>>21915863
+>>21915952
+Where can I learn more about this man and these ideas?
+--- 21919555
+>>21919405
+it looks like you wandered into the wrong place, please step through the wooden door over there. bye!
+--- 21919576
+>>21919405
+He was well aware of how animalistic and vengeful the Jews are and saved his family from being tortured and used for propaganda. Very honorable, being a leftist or jew or leftist jew or whatever you are it is no surprise honor is a foreign and bizarre concept to you
+--- 21919596
+>>21918167
+sweet summer child...
+--- 21919705
+>>21915857 (OP)
+>>21917482
+Anyone has that picture of Göbbels and Hitler together, wearing fancy suit and bowtie?
+It also had the caption: "Find yourself a bro to scare the hoes with."
+--- 21919773
+has anyone read michael?
+--- 21920403
+>>21919773
+https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28novel%29
+--- 21921623
+>>21919576
+It reveals his mindset - that he gloats in that having happened.
+--- 21921632
+>>21915863
+what a guy

lit/21915958.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,48 @@
+-----
+--- 21915958
+What is a "category of categories" and what would be its implication for metaphysics? 
+
+I was reading an essay about how the early Heidegger during his Scholastics phase was influenced by Emil Lask and his "category of categories" concept:
+>In the same vein, Heidegger, in his dissertation (I916) on the doctrine of the categories of being and of signification in Thomas of Erfurt alias Duns Scotus, identifies ens commune as the 'category of categories' and sees in the medieval doctrine of the transcendental properties of being - the one, true, good, and beautiful - a reflection of the philosophical categories by excellence. This line of development is destined to expand into a concern for the existential categories in Being and Time (Heidegger-I) and to Heidegger-Il's penchant to seek out the fundamental concepts of the West emerging from their pre-Socratic roots, in particular the topoi of logos, aletheia, and physis, which. as basic names for being, display a peculiar convergence akin to the 'convertibility' of the medieval transcendentals.
+>More in the mainstream of the argument of the habilitation, which applies the insights of modern logic to a Scotian theory of categories and speech significations, is the repeated Laskian insistence (GA Rd. 1, 211, 263, 287f), reinforcing Scotus, that Aristotle's categories do not constitute the totality of categories but only a particular class of a particular domain of actuality, that of the real; that the meaning-giving acts of a speaker (especially if they are taken to be 'real') as well as his signifying intentions (either thought or spoken) as opposed to the 'valid' ideal objects of such intentions belong to different domains, each with its own governing regional category (especially validity versus reality) differing in meaning from other such region- constituting forms; if these different domains have their own logic, then there must be a logic which unifies and differentiates them, and this 'logic of logic' (GA Bd. 1, 288) will in turn have its own categories. What then is the master 'category of categories,' 'the ultimate and the highest, behind which we cannot inquire any further' (GA Bd. 1, 215: a formula that recalls Dilthey's regarding life!), the moment that pervades any cognizable object, 'objectness as such' (GABd. 1, 216)? Fusing the insights of his neoscholastic and transcendentalist mentors, the young Heidegger answers with ens commune "ut maxime scibile" (214f), the primary transcendental which is convertible with unum, verum, bonum (216), the 'something in general' (217) 'which is the condition of the possibility of knowing any object whatsoever' (215), in short, the matter of a reflexive category!
+>Theodore Kisiel, Heidegger's Way of Thought
+(1/2)
+--- 21915960
+We already have Aristotle's categories, which seem to classify the function of language. Then we have Kant's categories, which undergo an evolution with Kant's reorganization to describe judgment in general. Finally, we have Peirce's categories, which collapse the categories into three types meaning to describe the connectivity between ideas in general, a phenomenological science. How far is this going to go, and what is the endgame of categorial investigations?
+(2/2)
+--- 21915985
+>>21915958 (OP)
+>>21915960
+Very interesting. This gives a lot of credence to Bowden describing Heidegger's whole philosophical orientation as scholastic.
+--- 21916060
+>Perhaps Heidegger's first precedent for the prereflective understanding-of-being constitutive of Dasein was the scholastic intellectus principiorum, the prior understanding of the transcendentals of being, one, true, and good serving as a 'natural light' to guide every human intellect. 3 In addition to Husserl's categorial intuition and Lask's dedicative submission, the Young Heidegger encountered other versions of this 'knowledge' that precedes overt knowledge, a knowledge that is one with life itself: Adolf Reinach's 'experi-entially immanent knowledge,' Schleiermacher's 'felt intuition,' Eckhart's 'naked intuition of the first truth,' the Lutheran sense of truth as trust, the Scotian modus essendi aetivus (Genesis, 115). The Eckhartian notes of letting be and receptive listening might also be added to underscore Heidegger's attempts, halting and difficult in view of the massive weight of a long tradition, to get beyond the metaphors of Lichtmetaphysik.
+--- 21916615
+bump
+--- 21917440
+bump
+--- 21918021
+last bump
+--- 21918179
+good thred
+--- 21918966
+>>21915958 (OP)
+Categories of Categories means capital B Being. The reason why Being as such is not named in scholastics is because in Heideggerian interpretation it belongs to the period of forgetfulness of Being. I believe this is why the man youre quoting relates it to Heidegger's ideas regarding pre-Socratics. My advice would be to read Heidegger's primary texts instead of others' analysis of him. There is no Heidegger I and II as Martin himself explicitly says all his early work already included his later work, and the attempt to understand his reading of a past philosopher without bearing in mind Heidegger's vision of history of Being is flawed.
+--- 21919185
+>>21915958 (OP)
+>category of categories
+Refuted by Russel (pbuh).
+--- 21919697
+bump
+--- 21920218
+Nur eine Bump kann uns retten.
+--- 21920236
+When will /lit/ grow out of Heidegger?
+--- 21920443
+>>21920236
+When he has been overcome.
+--- 21921467
+>>21915958 (OP)
+Yeah it's called Eleatic metaphysics. There's no need to sift through subpar medieval and/or german "philosophers'.
+--- 21921472
+>>21921467
+How does Eleatic metaphysics do it?

lit/21916048.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,167 @@
+-----
+--- 21916048
+Does /lit/ use fountain pens?
+--- 21916082
+>>21916048 (OP)
+throughout my undergrad I used a pen my father bought me, but due to the price of cartridges being so expensive, I couldn't
+--- 21916365
+>>21916048 (OP)
+Yes. They make my handwriting look less bad. I have been thinking about buying a nicer one (specifically one of the new Esterbrooks), but the $200 price tag seems a bit baffling so I keep putting off buying one. I’m tired of using cheaper pens that feel like they’re scraping the paper rather than flowing on it. 
+
+>>21916082
+You can reload cartridges with a syringe, buying bottled ink, or use a converter cartridge and do the same thing.
+--- 21916500
+>>21916365
+Yeah who uses cartridges lmao. A bottle of ink and a converter/cartridge+syringe is extremely cheap. Probably cheaper than using ballpoint pens if you don't lose your fountain pen.yvtrr8
+--- 21916675
+>>21916500
+I still use cartridges just for the convenience and I don’t care about spending a bit extra. (Also, a lot of international standard size disposable cartridges aren’t really that pricey.) I like that they’re no mess, but I will probably be expanding out to reloading or using a converter so I can try more ink types. If money is your hang up then you should load your own for sure.
+--- 21916679
+>>21916094
+That penmanship is pretty disappointing.
+--- 21916691
+yes
+they stop your hand/fingers hurting if you're writing fro a prolonged length of time and are nice objects to collect, fixate upon, restore, buy, sell
+--- 21916717
+>>21916048 (OP)
+unlucky. here in germany you can buy pots of 100 for a fiver.
+--- 21916831
+>>21916679
+--- 21916936
+>>21916094
+--- 21916944
+>>21916365
+$200 is hopefully just an 18k nib which does make a slight but noticeable difference in smoothness. And is a vacuum fill, or get a nice pilot custom, please. Anything over 30 bucks that has or does things better than a 30 buck pen is worth it. That excludes a lot of expensive pens made from fucking plastic that don't even have a gold nib.
+--- 21917026
+>>21916936
+Pps, I don't remember writing any of this but want more of whatever the fuck I was on.
+--- 21917029
+>>21916936
+--- 21917048
+I have oily skin and water ink struggles to work whenever I'm writing something at the place where my hand was positioned previously, so I use gel pens instead.
+>>21916094
+Try better paper, bro.
+--- 21917067
+>>21917048
+It's a reasonably smooth pentalic journal for drawing, I'm catching because left handed and shit at writing because left handed. I write better in reverse. Also I should probably break out the ruler for calligraphy and not be kinda drunk when I do.
+--- 21917073
+>>21917048
+I wasn't going to waste any of my good paper on a reply to someone on a Mongolian ice fishing forum
+--- 21917125
+>>21917029
+Not a my diary desu thread and I don't want it to be but I wonder what happened to the first one. It's either still around with some pages torn out or I burnt the whole thing. That was some pure schizo shit from a ten year old.
+--- 21917147
+>>21916831
+>>21916936
+Hey gramps, it's past your bedtime
+--- 21917368
+I have a couple high quality pens but the Lamy Safari is my go-to pen. Just $35 with a converter. What I love about it is the plastic is the same used by Lego
+--- 21917416
+>>21916048 (OP)
+>doesn't use quill and ink
+--- 21917428
+A Pilot Metropolitan and Noodler ink is all you need. Both cheap workhorses that will last you a lifetime of writing. Anything more expensive and fancy is both feminine and dumb.
+--- 21917907
+Yes, but I think I fucked it by washing it in very warm water. The flow is poor and it seems to suck up more air than put down ink. Hopefully it's because I'm just using bad paper, but who can know?
+--- 21917978
+I hate writing by hand but I have used them for inking drawings back when I tried to git gud at illustration.
+--- 21918008
+yes i use a cheap Platinum and Zebra on a daily basis, might opt for a more expensive/fancier one if i ever want to treat myself
+--- 21918067
+A fountain pen is more than a mere writing utensil but a true instrument.
+--- 21918112
+>>21917368
+My Safari is the main fountain pen I use, but it’s not the smoothest writer in the world and starts and stops on putting ink down sometimes. The smoothness and stop/start issue with cheaper pens in the main reason I’ve been considering buying an expensive fountain pen instead. Also it seems like premium fountain pens do a better job of sealing the top when it’s on, so the pen doesn’t dry out with prolonged non-use.
+--- 21918117
+>>21917428
+Is it scratchy? Does it always start immediately when you touch it to the paper?
+--- 21918186
+>>21918112
+You should try a wetter ink. Noodler's Legal Blue is very well behaved on cheap paper and extremely wet.
+--- 21918190
+>>21916048 (OP)
+>fountain pens
+I don't know that brand of keyboard manufacturers.
+--- 21918204
+My twisby precision has stopped working smoothly. Kind of sucks because I really like the piston fill mechanism.
+--- 21918236
+>>21917428
+holy fuck does Pilot sell EF Metropolitan? Your picrel is exactly what I'm looking for, link?
+--- 21918269
+>>21918204
+Can you replace the nib?
+--- 21918299
+Most homosexual thread on /lit/ award
+--- 21918307
+>>21916094
+>Don't buy a fountain pen unless you can actually write cursive you absolute ape
+--- 21918632
+>>21918307
+Your writing is still going to look better using a fine or medium nib on a fountain pen than using a 0.5 ballpoint if you have bad handwriting. Bad handwriting combined with a chicken scratch ballpoint looks like true shit.
+--- 21918916
+>>21917067
+possible psychopath
+
+>>21917029
+scared, fearful, neurotic
+
+>>21916936
+scatterbrained
+
+>>21916831
+insecure
+
+>>21917428
+self taught, normie adjacent
+--- 21918948
+I use a cheap zebra fountain pen. I love it because it is comfortable to use, minimal pressure needed and looks much neater than the ugly traces of the equally comfortable rolling ball. I don’t carry about a pen being fancy or expensive though as i don’t write to larp
+--- 21918963
+>>21917428
+I started with a similar stack but found the Metropolitan to have a poor cap seal, and so my pen usually needed to be run in water or dipped to get it flowing when I wanted to use it if it sat more than a day.
+
+Faber Castell Essentio and Lamy Studio LX are probably all I need. Both are also prone to drying out after 5+ days during the winter. I might get a Platinum pen just to have something that I don't have to mess around with when I want to use it after a week.
+--- 21918982
+>>21916048 (OP)
+yes, i suck fat cock.
+--- 21918987
+>>21918117
+>>21918204
+These issues, and many others, with fountain pens are the results of some stupid niggers starting making them with round ball nibs (like if they were fucking ballpoint pens). Any such crap can be trivially repaired by regrinding it into a proper, stub (italic) nib, though a "professional" service doing it will cost you a kidney and a mortgage. Learn to grind your own, it's a few minutes "work" and you will forget about any "hard starts", drying, skipping, blotches, whatever. A good website of how to do it here: http://www.marcuslink.com/pens/aboutpens/ludwig-tan.html
+Btw, these stupid (greedy) niggers will charge you extra for a pen with an italic nib, which is way easier to make kek (you pay extra because your pen now actually works)
+--- 21919094
+>>21918948
+I have one, but if I recall correctly they use a proprietary cartridge that’s a bit pricey and annoying to get. I’ll eventually just refill the cartridge I still have in it, but I’ve had this for years and not used it much because of all that. (I’ve not used converters or bottled ink in years, but I assume you can only refill a cartridge so many times before it starts to leak as well?)
+--- 21919099
+>>21918987
+Thanks for the heads up. I knew nib grinding was a thing, but I never understood exactly why.
+--- 21919118
+>>21919094
+Cartridges are like a buck fifty, it really depends on how much writing you do for that to be expensive. It can be if you write almost exclusively by hand rather than typing
+--- 21919286
+>>21916365
+You should check out /r/pen_swap to find a solid deal. I was able to snag a Sailor Pro Gear for ~$100.
+--- 21919292
+Is cursive supposed to be superior
+--- 21919366
+Only downside is that it's such a chore to get them working again if you leave them lying around for a while and they dry up.
+--- 21920665
+i love writing
+--- 21920676
+>>21919366
+Gotta run warm water through them, but yeah. My understanding is that if you find a higher quality one where the cap seals air off properly, you can leave them unused for extended periods and not have them dry out.
+--- 21921064
+What do you write using them? Is it more for journaling or short stories or what? I get you can use them for anything, I'm more curious what people actually prefer them for
+--- 21921180
+>>21918982
+phwoar, write me a letter anon
+--- 21921204
+>>21921064
+I use them for writing notes for my work meetings, for letters I write to (usually older) members of my family, and for while I’m working on my writing projects, since I typically keep a pad next to my computer to jot down things. In terms of practical usage (as in why you’d use a fountain pen rather than a ball point), I find it typically makes my writing look nicer and less like a third grader’s scrawled handwriting.
+--- 21921210
+>>21921204
+And also for my journal, I guess I should have mentioned, which I want my handwriting to look nice for.
+--- 21921281
+>>21921064
+I like to consolidate information. We learn better when we write what was heard, and so when I'm listening to a podcast or watching a Youtube video that deals with facts that I want to remember, I practice handwriting while embedding knowledge. The pages then make for nice quick-reference. Might as well do it with a pen that is actively pleasant to write with, with the ability to switch colors.
+--- 21922040
+TWSBI makes a very affordable and durable piston fountain pen. I highly reccomend them. I own "nicer" pens but still just use the TWSBIs. I really like sailors black pigment ink.

lit/21916142.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,363 @@
+-----
+--- 21916142
+>At high school, Lenin fell in love with Latin. His headteacher had high hopes that he might become a philologist and Latin scholar. History willed otherwise, but Lenin’s passion for Latin, and taste for the classics, never left him. He read Virgil, Ovid, Horace and Juvenal in the original, as well as Roman senatorial orations. He devoured Goethe during his two decades in exile, reading and rereading Faust many times.
+
+>Lenin put his knowledge of the classics to good use in the time leading up to the October revolution of 1917. In April of that year, he broke with Russian social-democratic orthodoxy and, in a set of radical theses, called for a socialist revolution in Russia. A number of his own close comrades denounced him. In a sharp riposte, Lenin quoted Mephistopheles from Goethe’s masterwork: “Theory, my friend, is grey, but green is the eternal tree of life.”
+
+>Lenin knew better than most that classical Russian literature had always been infused with politics. Even the most “apolitical” of writers had found it difficult to conceal their contempt for the state of the country. Ivan Goncharov’s novel Oblomov was a case in point. Lenin loved this work.
+--- 21916165
+>>21916142 (OP)
+Based. Any recommended biography?
+--- 21916175
+I didn’t really fall in love with literature until I was about 25. As is typical for an American, I didn’t read that much in high school or college. I find that awfully depressing to recall.
+--- 21916177
+>>21916165
+Yes!
+--- 21916206
+What literary character is Lenin most like? 
+Well meaning intellectual who desires to be a good king but ultimately fails and ruins everything. That’s his cycle.
+--- 21916220
+>>21916142 (OP)
+chuds need to recognize that lenin was based
+--- 21916248
+>>21916220
+He certainly was not. He was a “chud” himself
+--- 21916280
+When will such a based man come and fuck shit up again. Do they really come once every 200 years? Why is there such a lack of leaders today?
+--- 21916308
+>>21916280
+>muh daddy abandoned me 
+>I need new daddy to spank meeeee!
+>why no dicktatorship to punish the bad people?
+>why god, whyyyyy?
+--- 21916330
+>>21916248
+Yes. He was buried to Wagner's Lohengrin Ouverture.
+--- 21916337
+>>21916142 (OP)
+How come the media can openly praise Lenin and not Mussolini? Never mind, I already know.
+--- 21916355
+>>21916308
+I would prefer a solar flare to destroy all electronics rather than a big daddy man, myself.
+--- 21916359
+>>21916142 (OP)
+Wasn't his favorite novel What Is to Be Done? Imagine being so well read and your favorite novel is still a piece of slop with no literary merits just because it shills for your same ideas.
+--- 21916374
+>>21916337
+Mussolini was a socialist but leftists will never claim him. It wouldn't be surprising tankies who have read fascist lit secretly admiring him.
+--- 21916383
+>>21916337
+The most baffling one is how media can praise Lenin, but Mosley, who was a pacifist and never did anything too bad, is seen as the devil.
+--- 21916390
+>>21916337
+Mussolini allied with Hitler and was cucked to implement Hitler's racial policies even though he didn't actually believe in them. Not a good look.
+--- 21916405
+>>21916359
+
+His favorite book was actually Jack Londons "White Fang".
+--- 21916409
+>>21916405
+Jack London in general is very popular in Russia.
+--- 21916411
+>>21916409
+
+Thats because Russians are based.
+--- 21916417
+>>21916337
+Stalin is still anathema. Trots have lib-washed Lenin.
+--- 21916431
+>>21916337
+They hung him upside down. He sided with Hitler when he should have sided with Stalin. 
+>>21916374
+He sided with Hitler. There’s little light between them and Stalin, but he chose wrong when choosing fascism, not state socialism.
+>>21916383
+Siding with Hitler, Mosley would have liked to be appointed PM with the return of the abdicated king. It’s just politics. Instead of being the toady of the US they’d have been the toady of Nazi Germany.
+
+>>21916417
+Doesn’t matter. Imagine Mus allying with Stalin and fight the Germans. The US wouldn’t’ve invaded them, they’d get a section of Berlin maybe. Been a part of the Warsaw pact. Collapsed with the rest of the in the 90s
+--- 21916528
+>>21916280
+There are two major mechanisms keeping radicals out of power in America. The first is that almost nobody under 30 wins office anymore because the largest voter bloc in the country has been over 50 and simply wouldn’t vote for them. That means the people who get into office are the people who’ve established themselves in professional careers, namely in law, business, education, and occasionally the military. These are good professionals that make good money and don’t see anything wrong the system. Most often they’re grifters or careerists or they want to play some sort of money-media game. The second mechanism is college because not only do all of these careers require college degrees but most government and military leadership positions require college degrees and at college of 3 things happens: 1) you either toe the institutional line and jump through academic hoops and you get rewarded with a career or 2) you don’t and you either don’t get a good career taking you out of the running for office or 3) you get filtered out entirely taking you out of the running for office. It used to be in America, that politicians were mostly military or lawyers. You didn’t need a degree to be a military officer and you didn’t even need a degree to practice law. America lost its stomach for military leaders, turned instead to the lawyers, the law schools wisely lobbied to control over the lawyering profession and now not only do you need a degree to be a lawyer, you need 2 and you need a degree to be a military officer and hold most government jobs, which are prohibited from running anyway thanks to the Hatch Act. So what you get is a giant cohort of successful middle to upper-middle professionals that basically are fine with the way things are and are just looking to advance themselves. All the while, church and state are separated by law and dissident groups are suppressed. Only recently has this started to change while the parties dip into bartender candidates, but none of them are the caliber of person you’d want in office. The real problem is there’s no way for competent young people to get in without proving themselves to be part of the party for a long time. The GOP openly talks about how it likes to run wealthy businessmen because they don’t want to shake things up too much and because they can find their own campaigns. Forget soldiers, forget civil servants, they think millionaires hedge fund managers should be Senators.
+--- 21916547
+>>21916337
+Even if Fascist Italy didn’t ally with Germany and endorse racial doctrine, it was openly imperialist and wanted a warrior class, which is deeply offensive to liberals, progressives, communists, and leftists of all types.
+--- 21916556
+>>21916547
+Still would have fit in with the Warsaw pact and been good neighbors with Yugoslavia.
+
+Might have helped defeat Franco
+--- 21916818
+>>21916556
+Imagine how Fascist Italy would be like in the 1960s...
+
+It would be amazing.
+--- 21916822
+>>21916431
+Mental retard take, thanks for the laugh. How's high school?
+
+Italy allying with Hitler was based, the rest of Europe should have joined in and destroyed the commies and the other Jewish institutions. Then send them all to Israel and let them fend for themselves for once.
+--- 21916835
+>>21916822
+Hitler should have allied with the USSR.
+--- 21916847
+>>21916835
+The USSR should have allied with Hitler against Mussolini and Spain
+--- 21916852
+>>21916142 (OP)
+This is common knowledge. Of course he quoted Goethe, Marxists were infatuated with him. It didn't need a thread, but the amount of seethe it generated did give me a sensible chuckle.
+--- 21916861
+>>21916852
+The thread was a response to
+>>21915857 →
+--- 21916870
+>>21916822
+>you’re a dumb high schooler 
+>Italy allying with Hitler was based
+>jew conspiracy tard
+--- 21916887
+>>21916818
+Nothing in Italy since 1900 has been amazing. How could one political system accentuating a decades old corruption problem change that?
+--- 21916916
+>>21916165
+--- 21916928
+>>21916861
+Rather strange way to bicker
+--- 21916930
+>>21916835
+HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
+--- 21916939
+>>21916870
+>r3ddit 12 year old hasn't discovered /pol/ yet
+I guess that's like grade 11/12
+--- 21916952
+>>21916887
+>Nothing in Italy since 1900 has been amazing
+1900s Italy has Croce and Gentile, two titans in philosophy. You have the poetry of the mature D'Annunzio, the young Marinetti. You have real living breathing warrior poets and philosophers in 20th century Italy. In terms of culture, pre WW2 was Italy's swan song.
+--- 21916957
+>>21916930
+>Lenin was the greatest man, second only to Hitler, and that the difference between communism and the Hitler faith was very slight.
+--- 21916972
+>>21916431
+>but he chose wrong when choosing fascism, not state socialism.
+Up to his retarded idea to join the big bogaloo together with the german retard, things were running much smoother than in any socialist country ever.
+--- 21916976
+>>21916928
+strange you would read it that way
+--- 21916983
+>>21916952
+I'm talking about material conditions and achievement, not book club or philosophy contributions
+--- 21916984
+>>21916887
+Up until joinint the EU things were going golden
+--- 21916993
+>>21916957
+He laughs because he and Hitler are insane over Jews existing.
+
+Now imagine Goebbels having Hitler killed after they annexed Austria.
+--- 21917005
+>>21916972
+>muh fascism is bedder!
+When do you move to China?
+--- 21917017
+>>21917005
+I didn't say fascism is better than the current living standards in europe, I said it was better than all the shit socialists were up to during Mussolini's time.
+His popularity was incredible, the job market was saved, nobody in the country was hungry. It was objectively running smootly.
+The popularity got to his head and since it was a dictatorship if the one man in charge becomes retarded everything implodes, which is what happened.
+--- 21917021
+>>21916983
+>I'm talking about material conditions
+Yawn.
+--- 21917030
+>>21916930
+He came close to align with Stalin. 
+
+He even praised Staling for making a government out of the unorganized "rabbish slavic people".
+
+It was Hess (you know the cross-dresser Nazi) who saw that Germany could not fight a war on 2 fronts and decided to fly over to Britain and explain this to Churchill himself. 
+
+Hitler was mad and insane when this happened.
+
+At the end, Hitler respected the English but politics drove him to insanity. 
+
+Roosevelt was also pro-britain :"a yellow man's country will never be a white-man's one".
+
+It was supposed to be Roosevelt-Churchill-Hitler-Mussolini and maybe Stalin.
+--- 21917033
+>>21916939
+/pol/ is overrun with zoomers.
+--- 21917037
+>>21916983
+The country was consistently in the top ten biggest economies in the world since after ww2, it produced physicists of the likes of Fermi and has several impressive engineering achievements.
+The standards of living have been decreasing only recently but in the 70s the average italian was having much better success in his career than the average brit or frech guy.
+I honestly don't know what you are talking about, you seem to be talking about a stereotype instead of actual facts.
+To this day, it's the second manifacturer country of europe, not the EU, europe, including the UK, russia, etc.
+--- 21917119
+>>21916976
+I think seeing communists and fascists as two factions which argue with one and other is pretty common nowadays
+--- 21917132
+>>21917017
+>and since it was a dictatorship if the one man in charge becomes retarded everything implodes
+Which is why centralized government of all kinds of a bankrupt ideal perpetuated by ass-hats. Yes. History is the tale of a series of ass-hats continually failing.
+--- 21917137
+>>21917119
+It is historically different interpretations of communism.
+--- 21917140
+>>21917119
+True, but I’m not a communist or arguing
+--- 21917144
+>>21917132
+>of a
+Is a
+--- 21917146
+>>21917037
+Europe didn't have more than ten industrial powers at that point. I'm familiar with the pre-ww2 statistics and Italy lagged considerably. The issue of southern underdevelopment is racial and has plagued them throughout. Italian development under the fasces wasn't spectacular either if we take Kennedy's statistics for it. Not to mention small population and land damn it being to a second rank power at best.
+
+I would love to live in Italy but another 30 years of Fascism wouldn't have done much for them.
+--- 21917152
+>>21917132
+He is wrong and Mussolini was never a dictatorship. Banning parties and free press doesn't equal dictatorship. Mussolini had not only parliament but a king, and was voted out by the Fascists.
+--- 21917160
+>>21916793
+Do you think maybe any /lit/ poster who isn’t a poster on /pol/ should be banned? Every time someone makes a political discussion to drop red pills there is a lot of seething and reporting
+--- 21917161
+>>21917152
+The communist party of China also has a nominal electoral process
+--- 21917173
+>>21917160
+it's like /his/, a pol-lite adjacent for people exposed to the ideas in a shallow sense and more concerned with the debate between ideologies rather than accepting the critiques are a bunch of lies
+--- 21917186
+>>21917146
+>Europe didn't have more than ten industrial powers at that point. I'm familiar with the pre-ww2 statistics
+But it has held that title AFTER ww2.
+Italian GDP was higher than the UK for a couple of years in the 80s, and even before of after you can see the difference is minimal
+You are being willfully asinine, you can easily look it up.
+>Not to mention small population
+Same as france
+>and land damn it being to a second rank power at bes
+The land is completely resourceless and useless for anything but farming and tourism, that's true. Add to that half the country is useless and you have the recipy for stagnation.
+I'm not saying fascism would have changed anything, but your claim that a country that is still in the top ten economies in the world to this day didn't do anything for the last century is simply incorrect.
+There are several sectors that can be considered amazing in a material sense in the last centuries of italian history, from food to textiles, to arms and car production and design.
+--- 21917194
+>>21916220
+Lenin was based but the Soviet Union wasn't The Soviet Union failed in every one of its objectives, and ironically workers in the USSR had far less control over anything than they would have had in a hypothetical Liberally Democratic Russia, never mind the west.
+--- 21917743
+>>21917194
+>ironically
+This was all a part of Lenin’s plan, you boob!
+One of the Soviet Unions objectives was to industrialize, and it did, and just in time to stamp out the nazi threat. Then they proceeded to pioneer space flight. Pretty impressive, and all the people’s doing, not their ruling class 
+Lenin and Stalin were a shitheads. The people of Russia were based
+--- 21918139
+>>21916390
+He gave speeches in the 20s about the inferiority of blacks and how he was concerned about the birthrates of the white race, they had anti racemixing laws in Libya and Ethiopia. That quote is about the unification of Italy. The other fascists were civnats and Mussolini toed the line in the 30s to avoid angering them, the racial laws reflected his actual position.
+--- 21918210
+>>21916220
+Lenin was a chud and chuds do consider him "based". Le rich people bad.
+--- 21918515
+>>21917186
+hah, you have to be Italian. Not many histories lead with top tenz of industrial powers as the keynote. I think the claim here we're discussing is how Amazing Fasces Italy after 30 years would have been. My assessment: Based on the past decades of mediocre GDP under Duce, not much
+--- 21918665
+>>21916177
+My nigga
+--- 21918691
+>>21916142 (OP)
+just imagine how the 20th century would have played out if lenin had made oblamovshchina the founding principle of the USSR
+--- 21918722
+>>21916390
+>>21918139
+[Evola] told me Mussolini had asked him to write a new racial theory in order to counter that of Rosenberg. It would be the "Fascist racism," different from "Nazi racism"… And thus that entire brilliant Evolian concept of the "race of the body," the "race of the soul" and the "race of the spirit" was born that he labelled with the antipathetic term of "traditional." Something churned within me when I heard this word, as if before the presence of an intellectual social climbing, a literary vulgarity. This concept has been taken by Evola from Guenon, attributing it to Aryan Hinduism that mentions other bodies distinct from the physical that could be components of man, because if they only exist potentially they are virtual, being developed through the practice of yoga. They are bodies that are astral, mental, spiritual, etc. Being German, Clauss, the creator of psycho-anthropology, never called his theory "traditional" or "traditionalist." He was married to a Semite, which explains his attitude towards biological racism that he tried to outflank with his psychic racism, his "race of the soul." The "traditionalist" Rene Guenon also ended his days converted to Semitic Mohammedanism… 
+
+If the theory of Evola and Clauss on the races of soul and spirit can be accepted as a comfortable element of exposition, in the end they are not necessary, only complicating things, serving only to speak of racism among hybrid and mestizo people without hurting their feelings, since a mulatto or an Indian among us could always think that even though his body is coloured, his soul might not be. There is the suspicion that Evola has just invented everything to speak about race to the Southern Italians and Mussolini. Yet, although their pride remains standing, reality does not change. 
+--M. Serrano
+--- 21919409
+>>21918139
+So many of these are just mentions of this race that don't mention any kind of hostility towards jews, blacks, or other races.
+There is a difference between not being coroblind and calling for genocide like some other dictators did....
+--- 21919448
+>>21916939
+Go back
+--- 21919577
+>>21916175
+I blame our culture. You're hemmed in until your youth and vigor is reduced to the "manhood" of a middle aged worker.
+--- 21919583
+>>21916308
+Inbred Romanov hands typed this post.
+--- 21919610
+>>21916142 (OP)
+Oh yes the Russian Revolution, that time when angry young men living in poverty got tired of being killed in a pointless war so they did a revolution only to live in poverty and get sent to pointless wars.
+Classic. But at least women got rights and they lost the little male privileges they had left so it was worth it.
+--- 21919622
+>>21916280
+>such a based man
+>promises to pull the working class out of poverty
+>promises to stop young men from being killed in the war
+>does not solve the poverty issue, murders some propriety owners instead
+>gets young men killed in a civil war
+>destroys last male privileges via full women's suffrage
+Extremely based, life got worse for the men who participated in the revolution.
+JUST
+--- 21919632
+hmm
+--- 21919640
+When you join the revolution and kill your landlord so life can finally get better.
+BUT LIFE GETS WORSE, such a classic Russian moment.
+FUCK ME UP
+FUCK ME UP SENPAI
+CAN'T WAKE UP
+--- 21920114
+>>21916280
+Maybe ask Germany to fund revolutionaries in Russia again
+--- 21920584
+>>21916374
+Mussolini was brought to power by business interests to crush the working class and prevent socialism
+he was a left wing journalist in a previous life, but he was also in the payroll of british intelligence and informing on his comrades
+--- 21920618
+>>21920584
+Thank you for this.
+Should have known better than to believe for a second some poltard take gave
+--- 21920631
+>>21920584
+>fanfiction by his marxist political enemies
+Kek
+Also he was on the payroll during ww1 to say germany bad, you absolute utter fucking moron
+--- 21920744
+>>21920584
+Nice propaganda
+--- 21920756
+Reminder that Lenin was a MAZZINIAN "INTERNATIONAL NATIONALIST"
+
+>the recognition of the right of the nations oppressed by tsarism to free secession from Russia is absolutely obligatory for Social-Democracy in the interests of its democratic and socialist tasks.
+
+>Victorious socialism must achieve complete democracy and, consequently, not only bring about the complete equality of nations, but also give effect to the right of oppressed nations to self-determination, i.e., the right to free political secession. Socialist Parties which fail to prove by all their activities now, as well as during the revolution and after its victory, that they will free the enslaved nations and establish relations with them on the basis of a free union and a free union is a lying phrase without right to secession—such parties would be committing treachery to socialism.
+
+>Just as mankind can achieve the abolition of classes only by passing through the transition period of the dictatorship of the oppressed class, so mankind can achieve the inevitable merging of nations only by passing through the transition period of complete liberation of all the oppressed nations, i.e., their freedom to secede.
+
+>The proletariat cannot but fight against the forcible retention of the oppressed nations within the boundaries of a given state, and this is exactly what the struggle for the right of self-determination means. The proletariat must demand the right of political secession for the colonies and for the nations that “its own” nation oppresses. Unless it does this, proletarian internationalism will remain a meaningless phrase; mutual confidence and class solidarity between the workers of the oppressing and oppressed nations will be impossible; the hypocrisy of the reformist and Kautskyan advocates of self-determination who maintain silence about the nations which are oppressed by “their” nation and forcibly retained within “their” state will remain unexposed.
+
+>No democrat, let alone a socialist, will venture to deny the complete legitimacy of the Ukraine’s demands. And no democrat can deny the Ukraine’s right to freely secede from Russia. Only unqualified recognition of this right makes it possible to advocate a free union of the Ukrainians and the Great Russians, a voluntary association of the two peoples in one state. Only unqualified recognition of this right can actually break completely and irrevocably with the accursed tsarist past, when everything was done to bring about a mutual estrangement of the two peoples so close to each other in language, territory, character and history. Accursed tsarism made the Great Russians executioners of the Ukrainian people, and fomented in them a hatred for those who even forbade Ukrainian children to speak and study in their native tongue.
+--- 21921600
+>>21918665
+actually what did he fucking mean by this
+--- 21921639
+>>21921600
+That marxists and greedy jew bankers are one and the same and result in the same oppression on the proletariat
+--- 21921739
+>>21916142 (OP)
+>100 years later
+>people are still posting Communist propaganda
+You're deeply stupid OP. 
+
+Deeply, deeply, stupid.
+--- 21921749
+>>21916142 (OP)
+Read his work and you will realize he was a low IQ, seething peasant idiot who had no proper understanding of literature.
+
+>but Lenin’s passion for Latin, and taste for the classics, never left him. He read Virgil, Ovid, Horace and Juvenal in the original, as well as Roman senatorial orations. He devoured Goethe during his two decades in exile, reading and rereading Faust many times.
+Is that supposed to be some kind of achievement by The Guardian standards? XD
+--- 21921785
+>>21916528
+Good post
+--- 21921840
+>>21916142 (OP)
+Lenin was a pseud and he didnt even know what he was doing, his politics in power were indecisive and failed to establish a status quo which lead to power struggles and Stalinist purges in the following decades. 
+The only reason he got into power in the first place was because of German support and because he was more ruthless than Martov, he was really all muscle and no brain which is ironic considering how he saw himself. 
+Also nothing he predicted came true, absolute hack and only trannies read him at this point which is a fate worse than death.

lit/21916207.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,105 @@
+-----
+--- 21916207
+Just finished Don Quixote after reading it since like Oct or Nov
+
+What was I supposed to get out of it and why is it so highly regarded? The first part had its moments and toward the end I really enjoyed all the side characters, the side quest stories and romances. But before that it just felt like a bunch of silly scenes. Overall it felt like it kept dragging on, especially part 2.
+
+The passage where Don Quixote was giving tips on being governor was pretty kino though that I had to take pics of my the passage
+--- 21916221
+>What was I supposed to get out of it
+If you have to ask that question after reading a book, consider that maybe reading is not for you.
+--- 21916449
+>>21916207 (OP)
+>What was I supposed to get out of it
+
+>reads 1000 pages of a novel
+>does not get anything out of it
+>comes back to lit and asks others what to get out of it. 
+
+kys
+--- 21916459
+Don Quijote, Oblomov, Don Juan all read like comedies, noble people in modernity are ridiculous figures yada yada but they are actually very based and redpilled and spirited
+--- 21916514
+>>21916207 (OP)
+>What was I supposed to get out it
+Enjoyment
+>why is it so highly regarded?
+Other people have enjoyed it too.
+--- 21916523
+>beginning
+lol Don Quixote is mad
+>end 
+lol Don Quixote is the only one who isn't mad
+--- 21916667
+lmao, you were just supposed to read an excerpt of the windmill part and pretend you read it all. Idiot.
+--- 21916722
+>>21916207 (OP)
+You're supposed to get a little fun and escapist whimsy out of it. It's ridiculous and escapist precisely as a deconstruction of chivalric literature and stories in general.
+
+All stories are, in some form, escapist. Cervantes is making the point that we should enjoy having our fantasies and daydreams, but that we should be careful not to lose ourselves in them.
+
+In short: have fun but not too much fun.
+--- 21917886
+What's the best translation in English?
+--- 21918015
+>>21916221
+>>21916449
+Let me rephrase Op's question: why is it considered so significant, what is its relevance
+--- 21918032
+>>21916221
+what a pissy faggot thing to say. people should ask this every single time they read. stop being a gatekeeping bitch.
+--- 21919709
+>>21918015
+is don quixote crazy in a world of sane people or sane and tragically noble in a world of jaded bitter people
+
+Though it reads like 900 pages of Spongebob and Patrick pretending to be knights. I wish I didn't finish. Don't think it was worth it
+--- 21919777
+>>21916207 (OP)
+Ever heard of Fun?
+--- 21919915
+>>21918015
+Literature back then was entertainment, its a fun and well written story people liked back then thats it.
+--- 21919946
+>>21919709
+Anon acaba de comparar una serie de dibujos animados contra el genoma de la literatura.
+--- 21920057
+>>21919946
+Es más laudatorio de Bob Esponja más que un oprobio a Don Quijote.
+--- 21921572
+>>21916207 (OP)
+DON'T listen to anyone claiming it's supposed to be fun. Cervantes is the most sarcastic and bitchiest bitch to ever have existed. His idea of fun was to risk his life and fuck with the Council of Trent just to prove the Inquisition was dumb. Everything he wrote was meant to attack stuff he didn't like, nothing of what Cervantes ever wrote was innocent fun, and anyone saying the contrary probably can't even read Spanish.
+--- 21921582
+>>21919946
+--- 21921591
+>>21919709
+Most shit just flew over your head. Don't worry, it;s normal.
+--- 21921596
+>>21921572
+Yes it’s meant to be an absolute miserable reading experience and no fun is allowed - dismiss that it inspired the merriment of Laurence Sterne, Joyce, Melville, etc, etc.
+--- 21921599
+>>21916523
+this
+--- 21921601
+>>21921596
+>miserable reading experience
+Learn Spanish or find an acceptable translation.
+--- 21921608
+>>21916207 (OP)
+This is a book of MIRTH. The ending of Book II is awful though. Be mad Quixote, be mad.
+--- 21921611
+>>21921572
+>Everything he wrote was meant to attack stuff he didn't like
+And that's bad, because?
+--- 21921614
+>>21921601
+Irony, por favor?
+--- 21921667
+>>21916207 (OP)
+Did Don Quixote smile? Was he silly? Or was he like straight-faced dead pan all the time?
+--- 21921676
+>>21921591
+maybe. i wasnt going to read a bunch of classic knight errant literature before quixote and im especially not going to read it now
+--- 21921859
+>>21916667
+>didn't watch a brain dead retard explain the book to him 
+Ngmi, obviously you didn't start with the YouTube vids about the Greeks

lit/21916276.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,162 @@
+-----
+--- 21916276
+What makes a good incest novel?
+--- 21916314
+>>21916276 (OP)
+The absence of the “step-“ 
+It just kills the boner, don’t it?
+--- 21917759
+>>21916276 (OP)
+Make it wholesome and consensual
+--- 21917880
+>>21916276 (OP)
+Number of teenage girls who get wet reading it
+--- 21917924
+I haven't read Flowers in the Attic but at one point mention of it somewhere led me to read the plot summary on Wikipedia. I like the premise a lot, it seems like a pretty good story. Is the writing any good? I'll probably never read it either way I guess.
+--- 21917967
+>>21917924
+It's decent entertaining, though I haven't read too much of it yet.
+--- 21917972
+>>21917967
+decent and*
+--- 21919372
+>>21916314
+obviously
+--- 21919544
+>>21916276 (OP)
+This one, but it's not translated yet.
+--- 21919667
+>>21916276 (OP)
+I used to be oddly obsessed with V.C. Andrews in high school. Not sure why. Probably my latent autism
+--- 21919693
+>>21916276 (OP)
+There should be a lot of build up and tension, with genuine chemistry between the particular family members. The taboo is part of what makes it more interesting than a ordinary romance so it must lean into the taboo as a source of tension and conflict rather than brush it off or ignore it.
+There needs to be close calls, and the ever present threat of serious consequences if lines are crossed or the lovers are caught.
+
+Also a focus on a combination of sentimental and sensuality to bring new texture to familiar situations. This allows for erotic tension to be built in normally ordinary scenes. Suddenly eating breakfast or getting something from a slightly cramped laundry room takes on a totally different dynamic when the two are together.
+
+I don't actually have any novel recommendations. It's just something that comes up in manga and the free erotica I got off on in my teens. So the story pattern of stories that work are engrained in my head.
+--- 21919754
+>>21919693
+>I don't actually have any novel recommendations
+Thankfully I saved a list, and nearly none of these are smutty garbage.
+
+>Bro/Sis
+Forbidden by Tabitha Suzuma
+A Spell of Winter by Helen Dunmore
+Ada or Ardor by Nabokov
+The Holy Terrors by Jean Cocteau
+My Sister's Keeper by R.V. Cassill
+'Tis Pity She's A Whore by John Ford (A Play)
+Flowers in the Attic by V.C. Andrews
+The Maias by José Maria de Eça de Queirós
+Canada by Richard Ford (Weak)
+Outer Dark by Cormac McCarthy (Weak)
+
+>Mom/Son
+The Crime of Olga Arbyelina by Andrei Makine
+The Death of Sweet Mister by Daniel Woodrell
+Time Enough for Love by Heinlein 
+The Oedipus Cycle by Sophocles
+My Mother by Bataille
+A Garden of Sand by Earl Thompson
+Flesh and Blood by Pete Hamill
+
+>Undefined/Other/Weaker Presence
+Cousin Bette by Balzac
+Angels & Insects by A.S. Byatt
+Tender is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald
+The Holy Sinner by Thomas Mann
+The Cement Garden by Ian McEwan
+The Crimes of Love by de Sade
+de Sade's other books
+Gabriel Garcia Marquez's books
+Heinlein apparently has incest in many of his books
+Faulkner's books
+The Shipping News by E. Annie Proulx
+Aunt Julia and the Scriptwriter by Mario Vargas Llosa
+Lie Down in Darkness by William Styron
+Moon Tiger by Penelope Lively
+Independent People by Halldor Laxness
+Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said by Philip K. Dick
+The Children of Hurin by Tolkein
+The Sunne In Splendour: A Novel of Richard III by Sharon Kay Penman
+The Thirteenth Tale by Diane Setterfield
+The Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafón
+--- 21919759
+>>21919754
+No Dad and daughter?
+--- 21920250
+>>21919754
+Good list, thanks bro.
+
+I'm reading Flowers right now, and I'm actually more engrossed in the story than I thought I'd be. The prose isn't anything revolutionary, but the verbosity feeds well into the gothic aesthetic, and the descriptive language establishes a feel of intimacy with the characters that is crucial for such a story.
+--- 21920372
+>>21916276 (OP)
+>>21919693
+imo these ones fit that exact vibe
+Fake Flower
+>Nora in the Sun
+>Facial / Cream
+>Wash Me
+Mr Here
+>Loving Mom
+>A Mother's Worry
+--- 21921713
+>>21920372
+>Facial/Cream
+That sounds like smut, but I am going to check it out regardless.
+--- 21921816
+>>21919754
+I updated this list a month ago.
+Haven't read most of these, just going off goodreads reviews of the contents. "Other" includes books with weaker or an unknown amount of incest, not just other relationship types.
+B/S
+Forbidden by Tabitha Suzuma
+A Spell of Winter by Helen Dunmore
+Ada or Ardor by Nabokov
+The Holy Terrors by Jean Cocteau
+My Sister's Keeper by R.V. Cassill
+The Maias by José Maria de Eça de Queirós
+'Tis Pity She's A Whore by John Ford (A Play)
+Flowers in the Attic by V.C. Andrews
+Hale by K. Webster
+The Passenger by Cormac McCarthy (might be weak idk)
+M/S
+The Crime of Olga Arbyelina by Andrei Makine
+The Death of Sweet Mister by Daniel Woodrell
+Time Enough for Love by Heinlein
+The Oedipus Cycle by Sophocles
+My Mother by Bataille
+A Garden of Sand by Earl Thompson
+Flesh and Blood by Pete Hamill
+Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami (dropped it, one instance I think)
+Other
+Cousin Bette by Balzac (obv C/C)
+Angels & Insects by A.S. Byatt (B/S?)
+Tender is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald (F/D)
+The Holy Sinner by Thomas Mann (M/S)
+The Cement Garden by Ian McEwan (B/S?)
+The Crimes of Love by de Sade
+de Sade's other books
+Gabriel Garcia Marquez's books
+Heinlein books (M/S)
+Faulkner's books (idk)
+The Shipping News by E. Annie Proulx (unknown, maybe A/N and F/D?)
+Aunt Julia and the Scriptwriter by Mario Vargas Llosa (other types and A/N)
+Lie Down in Darkness by William Styron (F/D)
+Moon Tiger by Penelope Lively (B/S)
+Independent People by Halldor Laxness (one instance F/D)
+Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said by Philip K. Dick (B/S)
+The Children of Hurin by Tolkein (accident B/S?)
+Canada by Richard Ford (one instance B/S)
+Outer Dark by Cormac McCarthy (before the book events B/S)
+The Wild by K. Webster (F/D)
+The Sunne In Splendour: A Novel of Richard III by Sharon Kay Penman
+The Thirteenth Tale by Diane Setterfield (implied B/S)
+The Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafón (half B/S)
+Knut by Tom Mallin (B/S)
+The Tragedy of the Street Flowers by José Maria de Eça de Queirós (M/S)
+Repeat It Today with Tears by Anne Peile (F/D)
+Ancient Tillage by Raduan Nassar (B/S)
+>>21919759
+I included the relationship types in this updated list. There's a few F/D

lit/21916569.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,318 @@
+-----
+--- 21916569
+>I find English a far finer language than Spanish. 
+>>Why?
+>There are many reasons. Firstly, English is both a Germanic and a Latin language, those two registers. For example, for any idea you take you have two words: Those words do not mean exactly the same. For example, lf I say regal, it’s not exactly the same thing as saying "kingly." Or if I say "fraternal," it's not saying the same as "brotherly," or "dark" and "obscure." Those words are different. It would make all the difference, speaking, for example, of the Holy Spirit--it would make all the difference in the world in a poem if I wrote about the Holy Spirit or I wrote "the Holy Ghost," since "ghost" is a fine, dark Saxon word, when "spirit" is a light Latin word. And then there is another reason.
+>The reason is that I think that of all languages, English is the most physical of all languages. You can, for example, say, "He loomed over." You can't very well say that in Spanish. 
+>>Asomo? 
+>No, they're not exactly the same. And then, in English you can do almost anything with verbs and prepositions. For example, to "laugh off," to "dream away." Those things can't be said in Spanish. To "live down" something, to "live up to" something. You can't say those things in Spanish. They can't be said; it's a Romance language. I suppose they can be said in German, although my German really isn't too good.
+--- 21916587
+>anglophile loves the English language
+more news at 11
+--- 21916593
+>>21916587
+Provide a counter argument to his points.
+--- 21916604
+>>21916593
+Counter argument for a linguistic preference? I don't think this is wise.
+--- 21916647
+>>21916569 (OP)
+Read this in his breathless, soft, "no" spamming voice.
+--- 21916648
+>>21916593
+It works both ways. Spanish has verbs that are composed of one word, while in english you have to describe the action of the verb and the same goes vice versa. 
+If you find one more aesthetically pleasing than the other, you’ll describe it with words such as ”refined” or ”sophisticated”, as Borges does, when both languages are equally dumb and arbitrary in how they function. 
+Personally i find russian and swedish more sophisticated than english and spanish, though the former is as slavic-isolate and spanish is latin-isolate and the latter is a dumb hybrid of old norse and french.
+--- 21916650
+>>21916569 (OP)
+I do agree with these particular virtues of English.
+--- 21916655
+>>21916569 (OP)
+>>Asomo? 
+>No, they're not exactly the same.
+Cope, but he's mostly right. Spanish sounds better to the ear, but english is better for writing.
+--- 21916692
+>>21916569 (OP)
+>for any idea you take you have two words
+HAPPENING!!! GET IN HERE BROS!
+an absolutely assblasting mindblowing fartwhiffing discovery has been made by a negro 7th grader!
+>English is the most physical of all languages
+stopped reading there. Knows half a language and a quarter of another, has the audacity to speak of "all languages". Pathetic
+--- 21916701
+>>21916692
+>Knows half a language and a quarter of another, has the audacity to speak of "all languages". Pathetic
+Yea, I don't know why some people, particularly writers and so-called intellectuals, tend to make arrogant statements like that.
+--- 21916704
+Love them scrappy Germanic words, simple as
+--- 21916709
+>>21916692
+>!!!
+>!
+>!
+--- 21916720
+>>21916709
+God forbid people put SOVL into their replies.
+--- 21916771
+>>21916701
+it's not even google-researched. It's obvious OP just had an apple fall on his head and felt compelled to post his brilliant idea. What does he actually say?
+>synonyms with different connotations exist
+so? I'd be surprised if a large language didn't have them. Are there such examples?
+>"he loomed over"
+I fail to see any uniqueness here. Most slavic languages can be more fluent in sentence construction than English.
+>laugh off, live down
+lmao. Ukrainian and Russian creates words with prefixes and suffixes, which would probably blow OP's head off if he's mezmerized by "dream away".
+>>21916709
+you'll have to excuse me!!! !
+--- 21916775
+>>21916569 (OP)
+Spanish is a dirty poo language. Portuguese is worse though. Italian is the best Latin language, assuming French doesn't count.
+--- 21916785
+>>21916775
+You don't know any of them.
+--- 21916810
+>>21916779
+>seething
+Not really
+--- 21916812
+>>21916648
+>and the latter is a dumb hybrid of old norse and french.
+Don't forget Low German, anon!
+--- 21916827
+>>21916569 (OP)
+Man spanish must really suck if someone prefers english over it. 
+His hole "two different registers" argument is bullcrap anyway, since it's impossible to fully stick to either.
+--- 21916837
+>>21916785
+I know all of them.
+--- 21916850
+>>21916827
+>Man spanish must really suck if someone prefers english over it.
+Keep in mind that you're talking about an eccentric contrarian anglophile, not a normal person.
+--- 21916864
+>>21916837
+You know nothing.
+--- 21916885
+>>21916569 (OP)
+>I wrote about the Holy Spirit or I wrote "the Holy Ghost
+you can say espiritu for spirit and fantasma for ghost in spanish
+>f I say regal, it’s not exactly the same thing as saying "kingly."
+yu can say regio for regal and real for kingly, also palaciego, dinastico, soberano etc
+>"dark" and "obscure.
+lobrego for dark oscuro for obscure
+
+borges is just being pretentious cos he likes to troll his fellow hispanic writers, you shouldn't think to deep about this shit
+--- 21916913
+>>21916885
+And what's funny is that his actual English sucked. The English letters that he wrote were written in a 6th grade level at best. His spoken English wasn't brilliant either. So I don't know what he was on about. However tsundere he was about Spanish, it was all that he could master.
+--- 21916932
+>>21916569 (OP)
+I don't think it's valid as a system but it's interesting to think about. I am struggling to find examples. It's more that the language is one big amalgam. "Book" is Germanic and yet a public collection of books is a "Library". But we don't actively use a word for a paper book that is anything like liber, we in English just call it a book. He's talking out of his bottom, methinks.
+--- 21916968
+>>21916885
+>you can say espiritu for spirit and fantasma for ghost in spanish
+yeah but you wouldn't say "fantasma santo" for "espíritu santo".
+>you can say regio for regal and real for kingly, also palaciego, dinastico, soberano etc
+don't forget palatino and áulico
+--- 21917064
+>>21916692
+Big statements just signal his passion, if he were asked to clarify he'd take his time and give you your answer.
+--- 21917136
+>>21916771
+>it's not even google-researched. It's obvious OP just had an apple fall on his head and felt compelled to post his brilliant idea. What does he actually say?
+This isn't OP's opinion lol. It's Borges's opinion.
+--- 21917162
+>>21916885
+Midwit, he's talking about the mixed pedigree of the English language (Romance & German). It's not as striking in Spanish as it is in English. He's not being pretentious. You're simply not thinking clearly enough. Let's examine your examples:
+>you can say espiritu for spirit and fantasma for ghost in spanish
+Latin & Latin (inherited from Greek)
+>yu can say regio for regal and real for kingly
+Latin & Latin
+>lobrego for dark oscuro for obscure
+Latin & Latin
+
+You didn't even begin to grasp his point. Borges wasn't talking about the fact that there are multiple adjectives for a concept or even multiple categories of feeling for similar concepts.
+--- 21917168
+>>21916968
+>yeah but you wouldn't say "fantasma santo" for "espíritu santo". 
+Nta but in this case I agree, however Im sure there are plenty of examples of other phrases in Spanish with multiple differing wordings which in English are usually written in a single way.
+Anyways the quote OP posted is stupid since he believes English is the only language with synonyms that have different origins and connotations
+--- 21917170
+>>21916692
+>Assblasting
+Harsh, Germanic
+>Fartwhiffing
+Soft, Latin
+
+You have to admit, he had a point.
+--- 21917182
+>>21916692
+And yet you’re using English in this post. Curious.
+--- 21917200
+>>21917170
+ass: Latin. blast: Germanic
+fart: Germanic. whiff: Germanic.
+
+1) He wasn't talking about which one sounded "softer" or "harsher". He was talking about diversity and variety of vocabulary.
+2) The word you call Latin is 100% Germanic. The word you call Germanic is 50% Latin.
+--- 21917204
+>>21917182
+>You responded in English to an English post. That's so curious and interesting!
+--- 21917214
+>>21916692
+I think he knows far more about either language than you do.
+--- 21917236
+>>21916569 (OP)
+I have so many things in common with Borges, but I can't stand him and I after reading all his fiction I realized I didn't like it at all.
+--- 21917239
+>>21917200
+Based autist calling me out on my misinformation. Unfortunately I will do it again in the future.
+--- 21917246
+>>21917236
+I'm the opposite, I like his fiction and poetry but the man himself and his opinions is what I don't really like.
+--- 21917247
+>>21917182
+it's obvious he's using english, after all, there are only imbeciles who speak that dirty language here nigger
+--- 21917257
+>>21917246
+That's the norm among Spanish speaking lefties, García Márquez' quotes on Borges are hilarious.
+--- 21917273
+I like English but I also like other languages. Why does it have to be one or the other? It seems like base tribal shit like choosing a sports team or a political party.
+--- 21917281
+>>21917273
+identitarianism is the opiate of the masses
+--- 21917339
+>>21916569 (OP)
+Why didn't he mention that spanish is annoying as fuck?
+--- 21917352
+>tfw speak Russian, Georgian, and English
+>hate my mothertongues and vastly prefer English
+There is likely nothing that rivals Shakespeare in the world.
+--- 21917357
+>>21917339
+Why would he? It's the language he used for decades and wrote beautiful stuff in. However, he did say that French was like Italian spoken by a person with nasal congestion.
+--- 21917366
+>>21917352
+>There is likely nothing that rivals Shakespeare in the world.
+Dante is better. 
+>>21916579 →
+--- 21917390
+>>21916569 (OP)
+Is it Borges who had that pic that was posted here where it's something like "if you could be anything, what would it be?" "Dead."
+--- 21917395
+>>21916569 (OP)
+Only passable in the original Spanish with his own works, prosody wise. Odd sensibility in that light.
+--- 21917397
+>>21917390
+Yea
+--- 21917402
+>>21917366
+I've only read Dante in translation so I cannot rightly say.
+--- 21917403
+After returning to Germany, George first began to study Romance languages and their literature at Friedrich Wilhelm University in Berlin, where he remained for three semesters.[16]
+
+At the time, George had serious doubts about the ability of the German language to say what he wished to say in his poems. For this reason, he preferred instead to write French and Spanish poetry and even invented a language which he dubbed Lingua Romana, which combined words from Spanish and Latin with German syntax.[16]
+--- 21917455
+>>21916569 (OP)
+>English is the most physical of all languages
+He's right. Read some Shakespeare if you still don't get it.
+--- 21917533
+>>21916692
+>Knows half a language and a quarter of another, has the audacity to speak of "all languages". Pathetic
+Yeah I agree, I can't take anyone seriously when they say stuff like that.
+I can read about half a dozen different languages, and all it makes me realize is how little I know about the world's languages.
+
+All the examples of English being very "physical" could be rendered equally well in German. 
+Japanese has a very similar relationship to words taken from Chinese as English does to words taken from Latin and Greek.
+
+Personally, I do actually prefer English over my native German, but I think that's just because I associate German with a lot of things I do not like (e.g. shitty people I have to spend time with due to work or due to living in the same neighborhood, shitty uninteresting stuff I was forced to read because of school) while I associate English with writings, media and people that I spend time with voluntarily and could easily avoid if I were so inclined.
+--- 21917693
+>>21916569 (OP)
+You can say the same about French except for Latin and Greek instead of Latin and Germanic, which is far superior in my opinion.
+For his example, you have a lot more variety in French depending on whether you are literal or metaphorical: Foncé, sombre, obscur, ténébreux, sinistre, lugubre, etc
+The French civilized the English anyways.
+--- 21917718
+>>21916648
+>slavic krokrunes
+>börk börk börk
+>sophisticated
+l m a o
+--- 21917733
+>>21917455
+Who are you quoting unironically?
+--- 21917790
+Which Romance and Germanic language should I learn?
+--- 21917901
+>>21916655
+>>No, they're not exactly the same.
+
+They're not the same at all. Asomar is like when you stick your head out a window.
+--- 21917908
+>>21917790
+Italian & German if you want to be fancy, French & German if you're just a regular lad.
+--- 21917954
+>>21916569 (OP)
+>English is both a Germanic and a Latin language
+
+Beyond that, in English you are able to drop into French, Spanish or even Greek/Latin words without a problem.
+
+In Spanish, they do not really allow for use of foreign words. You could say hoi polloi in English for example, or piéce de resistance, but a Spanish speaker would not know what the hell you're talking about.
+--- 21917963
+>>21917273
+I believe my mother language to be the superior one merely because it's my mother language.
+--- 21917992
+>>21917954
+>In Spanish, they do not really allow for use of foreign words.
+There are plenty of foreign words in Spanish (club, bar, etc). What are not allowed are foreign phrases as they're usually translated and adapted (coup d'état = golpe de estado). French and Spanish are very similar so using untranslated French phrases is just pretentious and artificial.
+--- 21918135
+>>21916810
+shouldn't you be on the frontlines, hohol?
+--- 21919316
+>>21918135
+you:
+>A. monitor surroundings
+>B. potential trigger observed
+>C. neuron activation
+>D. produce a pre-recorded message
+>E. return to state A
+--- 21920603
+>>21916569 (OP)
+>No, they're not exactly the same.
+*refuses to elaborate*
+--- 21921274
+>>21917733
+Are you retarded?
+--- 21921530
+>>21917693
+>You can say the same about French except for Latin and Greek instead of Latin and Germanic
+based historically-illiterate retard
+--- 21921566
+>>21921274
+not him but yes i am
+--- 21921819
+>>21917790
+If you want to learn Latin but are apprehensive choosing it over sonething like German or French because it's not a modernly used, it will still be worth more of your time and bring you much more fulfillment. This goes for any lamguage. You can become very competent in about year for most langs and you probably have at least two decades left to use on learning at least one
+--- 21921870
+>>21916569 (OP)
+There is also another aspect which he didn't mention: the brevity of the English language.
+Try translating a Shakespeare sonnet into Portuguese decassílabos and you will quickly find out the job is impossible: you need to do it in alexandrines, if you're going to do it well, because the Portuguese words are simply longer, specially modal adverbs (which are terrible with their repetitive -mente endings).
+I don't think English is the 'best' language. I think Italian, Occitan and Latin are 'better' - the first two because of the sound (I know of very few English poems that make you sing as even a minor Italian poet like Lorenzo de' Medici is able to do) the second because of the sound too, but also the order of the words which is more versatile due to more rigorous syntax, and renders it in fact more concise than even English. 
+Of course, there are some disadvantages in English when compared to Romance languages too, such as the relative scarcity of rhymes.
+Overall, however, it all depends on the poem you are writing: if the poem is supposed to be about some slow and magnificent event, such as the sunset, and you wish to express it classically, then, supposing you could write it in any language, you'd probably pick a romance one, or Latin, over the brief and barbarian English. It would be easier that way. But a great poet can do it in any language, and the result will be good.
+In poetry, form and content are the same thing. If you found a good sequence of words in Spanish, then that's the right sequence to express what it, and only it, can express. This is why I use quotes when I say language X is 'better' than language Y. This only means that language X has features which, most of the time, tend to be desirable for a poet. Brevity, large number of synonyms, rhyme, sweet sounds, etc. these tend to be desirable, but this is only a tendency and not a rule, and depends too much on the specifics of the poem.
+--- 21921879
+>>21917790
+>>21921819
+Goes for any language really. My recs (besides whichever language you're most interested in or its literature) would be German and Latin. French is overrated, Italian is underrated but has a younger and smaller canon. German will give you more than enough modern thought and all French has to offer otherwuse are Romanticist works or a selection of not samey novels. Latin was used from the Roman empire (a lot of notable Romans did write in Koine Greek though) and throughout the middle ages and still prominent after Italian got its prestige in the Renaissance. Latin is literally foundational.
+--- 21921912
+>>21916593
+My counter argument is that dutch is also a language that exists in an intersection of linguistic branches and it makes you sound retarded. 
+>but he was talking about english
+Yes fucktard and his arguments for why it’s better don’t work outside that language showing the arguments are bad.
+--- 21921927
+He's an idiot saying it's the best language. He can be valid saying it's better than a specific language. There's no universal objectively best language. A language syntax, phonology, grammar etc are ehat give it a character that can make it subjectively better than another based on desired aesthetic and use.
+--- 21922066
+>>21917790
+spanish and german
+--- 21922071
+if it's not the best language then how come you fags itt are all speaking it?
+check and mate

lit/21916918.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,62 @@
+-----
+--- 21916918
+They might not be the best, but they aren't the worst either.
+--- 21916921
+reddit simple as
+--- 21916931
+>>21916921
+Do people on reddit like Stoics? I never go there lest I become like them. Shouldn't they be jerking off to Sartre, Marx and Foucault instead?
+--- 21916982
+It’s not the original stoics that’s the problem, but rather the modern cannibalization of the stoics by modern faggots like Ryan Holiday who’s just a PR and marketing agent taught by Robert Greene. The kind of people who read his trash also read garbage like The Art of War for Business
+--- 21917056
+>>21916918 (OP)
+Not philosophy
+--- 21917070
+>>21916918 (OP)
+They either like them, are Platonist fags or have grown up and found Epicurus and gone on to live fulfilling and happy lives.
+--- 21917296
+Because they're a common entry point into philosophy and behavioral disciplines and because 4chan is terminally infested with losers, they need to protect their ego by insulting anyone engaging with anything popular or pursuing success.
+>rahh rahh its le reddit
+why do you care what reddit does unless you use that website and interact with that audience?
+--- 21917343
+>>21916918 (OP)
+It's very easy to LARP as a Stoic, like it is to LARP as trad Catholics here
+--- 21917358
+stoics did propositional logic bad anglo only syllogistic good trad
+--- 21917382
+>>21916918 (OP)
+They though oratory skills were worth nothing so they can be safely ignored
+--- 21917861
+>>21916918 (OP)
+Christcucks stole good part of their philosophy so they don't want you to realize it and try to silence discussion around stoicism.
+--- 21917879
+>>21916918 (OP)
+1) Some see Aurelius and Seneca as hypocrites
+2) Modern stoicism (Ryan Holiday) is very popular among Reddit normies
+3) Nietzsche (who is regularly shilled here) refuted them.
+--- 21918899
+>>21917879
+this
+--- 21918921
+>>21916918 (OP)
+Negative emotions is a pivotal core of the human foundation and neutering them is equivalent to becoming a tranquil
+--- 21918922
+I like stoicism and if you don't like it that doesn't bother me at all thanks to my training.
+--- 21919685
+>>21917879
+I'm not a Stoic (disagree with its "metaphysics"/physics), but that schizo loser didn't refute Stoicism.
+--- 21919731
+>>21916918 (OP)
+They think too much. Confuse their thinking with reality. Thin kyour way out of a bad situation instead of doing something about it. They definitely dont lift.
+--- 21920840
+>>21916918 (OP)
+Because it lets them off the hook for having to control their emotions.
+--- 21920848
+>>21919731
+Misunderstanding of Stoicism.
+Their physical wellbeing is ultimately indifferent to their happiness. But, it's still preferred to have a healthy body. So aiming for wisdom and an excellent life, the Stoic would lift, a lot.
+--- 21921098
+>why don't people who spend their time raging on the internet with zero emotional regulation like stoicism
+--- 21921643
+>>21916918 (OP)
+Living a virtuous and divine life is not easy. People who hate this philosophy can't view what's beyond the material.

lit/21917252.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,207 @@
+-----
+--- 21917252
+Books to cope with the idea of dying?
+--- 21917265
+The western canon
+--- 21917268
+>>21917252 (OP)
+The Chronicles of Narnia 
+Tolkien's Legendarium.
+--- 21917269
+>>21917252 (OP)
+The Passenger/Stella Maris
+--- 21917272
+>>21917252 (OP)
+Every philosophical idea is based around the idea that there must be some sort of meaning to life.
+This means every literary or philosophical work is just cope for death.
+--- 21917279
+>>21917252 (OP)
+>>21917252 (OP)
+you can not cope with that
+It's a instinct, a body sensation, you can not chance that with ideas, just like you can not stop feeling hunger or thirst 
+You can try to control the feeling, but you can not stop feeling
+--- 21917280
+>>21917252 (OP)
+Rasselas
+--- 21917307
+>>21917252 (OP)
+put your shirt on
+--- 21917331
+>the chief cause for the impending collapse of the world - the cause sufficient in and by itself - is the enormous growth of the human population: the human flood. The worst enemy of life is too much life: the excess of human life.
+
+>That there are billions of people over 60kg weight on this planet is recklessness.
+
+>If there were a button I could press, I would sacrifice myself without hesitating, if it meant millions of people would die.
+--- 21917463
+>>21917252 (OP)
+Unironically study NDEs and realize that there actually is an afterlife and that we are eternal and will go to heaven unconditionally when we die. And NDErs talk about how life is like a video game or a simulation and you actually chose to come here, and that the meaning of life is to learn to love and be kind and thrive here despite how hard it is in this world. And there are scores of studies confirming that reading about or listening to NDEs lessens or removes the fear of death (so what >>21917279 says has already been proven false by research). And YouTube is filled with NDErs and their testimonies. And while the Bible and the Qu'ran convinces few people who do not already believe, the book in pic related is known to convince even hardened skeptics that there is an afterlife.
+
+>"b-b-but NDEs are dreams or hallucinations somehow!!!!!!!1!", the pseudoskeptics proclaim
+Already thoroughly dealt with and explicitly refuted in the literature they likely have not read on NDEs.
+
+Here is a very persuasive argument for why NDEs are real:
+
+https://youtu.be/U00ibBGZp7o [Embed]
+
+It emphasizes that NDErs are representative of the population as a whole, and when people go deep into the NDE, they all become convinced. As this article points out:
+
+https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mysteries-consciousness/202204/does-afterlife-obviously-exist 
+
+>"Among those with the deepest experiences 100 percent came away agreeing with the statement, "An afterlife definitely exists"."
+
+Since NDErs are representative of the population as a whole, and they are all convinced, then 100% of the population become convinced that there is an afterlife when they have a sufficiently deep NDE themselves. When you dream and wake up, you instantly realize that life is more real than your dreams. When you have an NDE, the same thing is happening, but on a higher level, as you immediately realize that life is the deep dream and the NDE world is the undeniably real world by comparison.
+
+Or as one person quoted in pic related summarized their NDE:
+
+>"As my soul left my body, I found myself floating in a swirling ocean of multi-colored light. At the end, I could see and feel an even brighter light pulling me toward it, and as it shined on me, I felt indescribable happiness. I remembered everything about eternity - knowing, that we had always existed, and that all of us are family. Then old friends and loved ones surrounded me, and I knew without a doubt I was home, and that I was so loved."
+
+Needless to say, even ultraskeptical neuroscientists are convinced by really deep NDEs.
+--- 21917581
+>>21917252 (OP)
+Something religious?
+--- 21917669
+>>21917463
+I'm not buying from your amazon book store, doesn't matter how many times you shill this
+--- 21917721
+>>21917252 (OP)
+spinoza
+--- 21917762
+>>21917252 (OP)
+All the philosophy of the world cannot help you cope with it. 
+Someday the lights will go out.
+You’ll stop seeing and hearing and feeling.
+The world will keep spinning.
+Everyone else will go on like nothing happened.
+Even your loved ones will forget you with time.
+It’s all pointless.
+Do whatever you want.
+--- 21917798
+Bibble
+--- 21917802
+>>21917762
+>Do whatever you want.
+Is it okay if I tie you to a totem and burn you alive as I dance around nude, reconnecting into my inner nignog?
+--- 21918070
+>>21917252 (OP)
+--- 21918086
+>>21917252 (OP)
+Plato’s Phaedo and the Stoics
+--- 21918105
+>>21917252 (OP)
+U.G.
+--- 21918552
+>>21918077
+QRD?
+--- 21918723
+>>21917252 (OP)
+> "The mind is not immortal. The mind dies when the body dies. However, this is true for an external observer, and not for the one dieing. We thus need to engineer a biological shutdown scheme that generates a serene, structured, and well-integrated experience, where subjective time be perceived as endless. Only then can you engineer after-life scenarios."
+>"The brain is a delicate piece of bioengineering. It is meant to control controls your thoughts, though it does not create those thoughts. It controls your memory, though it does not create it. And it is the key system to control your movements, and the correct functioning of many organs within your body. Yet, it also plays a key role during your death: it creates the imagery that you call 'after-life', and it generates the required neurotransmitters that will give you the impression of living endlessly in that imaginary universe... so that you die, without your being aware of being dead."
+>"XViS generates the total hallucinatory experience. The designoid enters into a fully dopamine-driven scenario dominated by synthdreams where the subjective perception of time is tweaked as to make the designoid believe it is living in a timeless, eternal reality. For humans, this requires beautiful synthdreams based on wonderful landscapes and the interaction with their beloved ones. In real time, the whole experience only lasts 37 seconds, after which the subject is termed 'deceased'. That's your after-life."
+>Yes, you see, the after-life exists as long as your brain makes you believe everything you see and experience is real, and endless
+--- 21919384
+>>21917252 (OP)
+The Holy Bible (King James Authorized Version)
+--- 21919386
+Conspiracy Against the Human Race
+--- 21919465
+>>21917252 (OP)
+Here you go.
+--- 21919470
+>>21918723
+wheres that from
+--- 21919594
+>>21919465
+I would say the Upanishads personally.
+--- 21919598
+>>21917252 (OP)
+the Bible.
+educate yourself, death isn't real
+--- 21919752
+How do I get the courage to kill myself? I'm bloody tired of this shitty world, but have never felt the slightest impulse towards actually trying to get out of it. I'm just so fucking tired and need an easy coward's way out. 
+
+I know it doesn't really exit, but I just need to scream into a void a bit. Fuck life and fuck the demiurge.
+--- 21920227
+>“Everybody is afraid of death for the simple reason that we have not tasted of life yet. The man who knows what life is, is never afraid of death; he welcomes death. Whenever death comes he hugs death, he embraces death, he welcomes death, he receives death as a guest. To the man who has not known what life is, death is an enemy; and to the man who knows what life is, death is the ultimate crescendo of life." - Osho
+--- 21920622
+>>21920227
+Osho is a fraud.
+--- 21920628
+>>21917252 (OP)
+The Bible
+--- 21920720
+>>21919752
+
+If you kys you will spend all eternity in hell
+
+Why don't you stop being ungrateful and start appreciating the little things in life for once. The trees. The sun. The bugs
+--- 21920725
+>>21920720
+>*mother dies from cancer*
+>"oh, well at least there's still cockroaches"
+Religion is a mind virus
+--- 21920736
+>>21917268
+narnia is a good awnser
+--- 21920746
+>>21920725
+
+>*mother dies from cancer*
+>"oh, well at least there's still cockroaches"
+
+unironically yes
+--- 21920749
+>>21919470
+Forgotten languages
+--- 21920751
+>>21920746
+God isnt real
+--- 21920755
+>>21920725
+Sounds like you're a bitter coward desu
+--- 21920768
+>>21917252 (OP)
+Being and Time if you're up to reading philosophy. All Men Are Mortal if you'd prefer a novel.
+--- 21920788
+>>21917252 (OP)
+You don't need a book, just a quote
+--- 21920795
+>>21920755
+I guess i should thank god for killing people i love
+What a great god
+--- 21920827
+>>21917307
+your shirt is gay
+--- 21920894
+>>21920795
+>thank god for killing people i love
+>thanking god for killing them
+>not thanking him for creating them and allowing you to meet them
+Why are redditards like this?
+--- 21921174
+>>21917252 (OP)
+just stop being a bitch
+--- 21921185
+>>21920894
+I didnt ask to be born
+--- 21921266
+>>21920788
+Thank you. Should I look into stoicism? I feel like stoicism has been hijacked by self help grifters, what are the true sources of stoic thought?
+--- 21921270
+Plato’s Socratic dialogues near the end of his life (mainly Defence/Apology and Phaedo) and as well Tolstoy’s later writings were the best on the subject that Ive read.
+--- 21921292
+>>21917252 (OP)
+the stranger by camus
+--- 21921403
+>>21920622
+He's just too based for you.
+--- 21921638
+>>21920227
+>says this
+>doesnt explain what life is
+>leaves
+--- 21921649
+>>21917463
+Not all people who go to near death have an NDE of the kind you're talking about. Therefore, it is not the case that everyone will go to heaven when they die. It also doesn't make sense that the meaning of life is love and kindness when there are cases where people die in childhood and infancy. Finally, a psychology today blog post is not hard evidence that the people who have had NDEs are representative of the broader population.
+--- 21921658
+>>21917252 (OP)
+quite literally all literature

lit/21917391.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,106 @@
+-----
+--- 21917391
+At which point in my reading journey do I read The Holy Bible? I was thinking after the Greeks.
+--- 21917495
+maybe if you read the fucking sticky you'll find out
+--- 21917713
+>>21917391 (OP)
+read it whenever you feel ready, but please read a proper Jewish translation and frequently consult the commentaries of the Jewish sages so that you do not fall victim to the false teachings of the J_sus worshipers.
+https://www.sefaria.org/texts
+--- 21917725
+Read the Talmud before the New Testament, so you can recognize Jesus as a false messiah.
+--- 21917735
+whenever you want, are you all fucking retarded??? there isn't any mandatory reading before the bible and you don't have to force yourself to read greeks or anything, you can literally start reading the bible right now
+--- 21917785
+>>21917713
+Jews are so psychotic they don't allow themselves to say "Jesus"
+
+This alone should tell you what commentaries to read, OP
+--- 21918035
+>>21917725
+I agree, although the Talmud is quite long and written in a very subtle way so that you can't just "read" it, you have to actually study it in order to get anything out of it.
+Very few people have actually worked through the whole thing.
+I think especially in the modern day, when you're new to the Jewish scriptures, it is best to start with the Torah (the first five books of Moses) and consult Talmudic and other Jewish commentary for as many verses as you can stomach, which is very easy to do now thanks to websites like Sefaria.
+Or even better, listen to Rabbis read the Torah with you on YouTube, or read through one of the many Weekly Torah Portion series that you'll find on various Jewish websites. Search for the keyword "Parashah" which is the name of the weekly Torah portions that Jews traditionally read throughout the year.
+
+>>21917785
+The fact that you worship a man whose name his own people use euphemisms for should give you pause and make you think. Have you ever actually read or listened to some Jewish arguments as to WHY Jews don't like your idol?
+--- 21919751
+>>21917391 (OP)
+whenever you're ready for the hardest text ever.
+you need to distinguish literalness from parable, get the figurative meaning out of literal things, and truly understand.
+btw everything in it is historical.
+
+I'd say truly understanding it is impossible without God's help. pray before you read, even if you're a fencesitter still. Just open your heart to God.
+
+as for ordering, here's a great one:
+Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, John, Epistles, Revelation, OT.
+most complicated are the Epistles (especially Paul's), the Wisdom books (Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, Job), and most of the OT.
+
+always search for answers to your doubts. every single criticism of Christianity i hear is either malicious and misinterpreting Scripture, or some basic doubt that was held onto instead of answered.
+Believe me, i was a fencesitter and answered every doubt i came up with and all the ones i could find.
+
+as for resources, just searching often nets you good explanations. try to read a few to be sure of the content, some like to skew the text with their biases.
+gotquestions is decent in explaining some things, although they have a calvinist slant.
+Bible Project is decent, and their word study series is fantastic.
+the one for Israel(don't take it for appearances, they're Christian jews evangelizing their country) channel has great theological discussion, and their 'answering rabbinical objections' series answers most of the basic doubts and such you could have. (Funnily enough, most misconstrued criticism and fallacious attacks are heard verbatim from both angry rabbinical judaism rabbis and fedoras).
+
+finally, get your hands on some apologetics and maybe basic theology.
+my first rec would be C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, along with all his other apologetic works after it.
+another good author would be Chesterton, but he's taking you have some Biblical knowledge already.
+you could also give some simpler Augustine works a read, or some from Maximus the Confessor (esp. On the Incarnation).
+God bless, and good reading!
+--- 21919756
+>>21917391 (OP)
+Read books on astrotheology then proceed to the bible, with the knowledge that its all just fairy tails
+--- 21919764
+>>21919751
+>btw everything in it is historical.
+before some clown comes along, everything that is obviously historical.
+stuff like parables and (sometimes) prophecy are figurative.
+Genesis, etc is literal.
+--- 21920003
+>>21919751
+Thanks anon. This reading order seems very interesting. Would you mind telling me why you chose the order and what does it have over the traditional sequence of Genesis...Revelation?
+--- 21920103
+>>21920003
+i find the Gospels to be the best start.
+if you go Genesis-Revelation a lot goes over your head, and you have much higher chances of being lured into some sort of mistaken or fallacious idea.
+NT first you'll come over the OT in crossnotes, and through study to understand it you'll familiarize yourself with the OT alongside.
+Matthew, for example, references the OT a lot, and shows you the proper interpretation of what you're reading; as do the Epistle writers.
+you need the NT to understand the OT properly, and the OT is much clearer after the NT, basically.
+you'll miss/not find a lot of prophecy and other important things OT first, along with just not getting the purpose of some other events. 
+
+to explain another way, the NT shows the conclusion of everything in the OT.
+seeing that conclusion first lets you see the things that point to it much more easily and clearly.
+--- 21920572
+>>21917391 (OP)
+>At which point in my reading journey do I read The Holy Bible?
+After you've read some preliminary scholarly material, to get the proper historical context.
+
+Watts J.W. - Understanding the Pentateuch as a scripture (2017)
+Yoo Y., Watts J.W. - Cosmologies of Pure Realms and the Rhetoric of Pollution (2021)
+Loubser J.A. - Oral and Manuscript Culture in the Bible. Studies on the Media Texture of the New Testament. Explorative Hermeneutics (2013)
+Douglas M. - Thinking in Circles. An Essay on Ring Composition (2007)
+Bowen J. - The Atheist Handbook to the Old Testament. V.1 (2021)
+Feldt L. - The Fantastic in Religious Narrative from Exodus to Elisha (2012)
+Allegro J.M. - The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (1973)
+
+MacDonald D.R. - The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark (2000)
+MacDonald D.R. - Does the New Testament Imitate Homer. Four Cases from the Acts of the Apostles (2003)
+Gmirkin R.E. - Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible (2017)
+Gmirkin R.E. - Plato's Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts (2022)
+Wajdenbaum Ph. - Argonauts of the Desert. Structural Analysis of the Hebrew Bible (2014)
+Wesselius J.-W. - Origin of the History of Israel. Herodotus' Histories as Blueprint for the First Books of the Bible (2002)
+
+(partially) Martin L. - Deep History, Secular Theory (2014)
+(partially) Martin L.H., Sørensen J. (eds.) - Past Minds. Studies in Cognitive Historiography (2011)
+(indirectly related) Sørensen J. - A Cognitive Theory of Magic (2006)
+--- 21920675
+>>21920572
+>read all these books written thousands of years after the Bible to read the Bible
+I can honestly say this is an exercise in midwittery.
+--- 21920732
+>>21920572
+>Martin L. (2014)
+Not again ...

lit/21917432.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,138 @@
+-----
+--- 21917432
+Time for a meta thread:
+
+How has /lit/ improved your life? More important, how are those improvements relevant to the specific goals of furthering your ambitions within the world of literature, whatever they may be?
+
+For me, /lit/ has been useful for having stimulating conversation, both in good and bad faith. I also appreciate the couple of namefags who posit at length because their thoughts do generally have an academic basis. Also, /lit/ has been helpful in the maintenance of my interest to complete the Greeks before moving on.
+
+One note of caution: there are some truly intelligent people here, but too many of you - whip-smart and less so - are content to mask your fears with shitposting and bad-faith arguments. This is not a productive exercise and you WILL regret it at the end of the road.
+--- 21917441
+>>21917432 (OP)
+The board's diminishing quality has led me to spend much less time here. It's by far one of the worst quality to thread ratio and every thread is full of strawmen and bad faith (with excessive use of ! !! !!!)
+--- 21917460
+>>21917441
+Where do you discuss literature if not here? My alternative is TheLibraryThing forum, which is honestly pretty great. It's mostly upper-class boomers who will actually write essays to get their thoughts across. It's a fairly small community, too, so most folks are on good terms.
+
+However, I appreciate the faster pace and anonymity of /lit/ so I do wish anons would grow up. Despite "starting with the Greeks," too many are concerned with "winning" instead of progressing the dialogue to its logical conclusion.
+--- 21917466
+When I was a shithead high schooler it encouraged me to seriously get interested in the greatest works of Western literature and philosophy, not just for social clout (although probably at least subconsciously a bit of that), but out of authentic interest in it, how interesting recommendations and reading lists seemed, and how intelligent and insightful the minority of effortposts occasionally were.
+
+After that (getting some good recommendations and a kick in the pants to be a “patrician” instead of a “pleb”), it’s diminishing returns, I’ve seriously downgraded how much time I’ve spent here over the past few years. /lit/ has always been shit, it’s just that when you’re new here and a plebeian, it seems relatively more intelligent and insightful than some other communities or dorks on Reddit, like you notice the shininess of the diamonds more than you realize the shit they’re mostly buried in, and they seem more impressive at first. But as you mature and learn more, you realize what at first impressed you was mostly just undergraduate-level pontifications.
+--- 21917500
+>>21917460
+I still come here but I use filters and hide threads.
+--- 21917502
+>>21917432 (OP)
+I will NOT regret shitposting. I WILL regret not shitposting enough.
+--- 21917568
+It’s quite a funny place - strangely one of the best places to get a solid education if you can filter out the shitposting and gleam recommendations of what to read. Sometimes also read some profound posts. I do not think I would have the deep interest in philosophy or have gotten into a top 3 university without this /lit/. 
+
+The shitposting really does ruin it sometimes though. The Japanese lit thread that was up recently was without any shitposting and it made me realise how much better this place could be with a little more seriousness. But it is still 4chan after all.
+--- 21918101
+Younger Zoomers currently are entering their intellectualoid phase; soon, it will all be over.
+
+At this point, I use this website/board primarily as a repository.
+--- 21918140
+>>21917432 (OP)
+It is the only community I've found that seems to actually care about the quality of a book, which I have used to push my writing to a higher level. I'm not yet where I'd like to be, but I do think I'm notable at this point and I don't think I'm blowing air up my skirt when I say that.
+
+That said, if I only went by /lit/s response I'd have killed myself or abandoned writing because a lot of the feedback is simply toxic, dismissive, or values something absurd to value. I get called a plotfag because I care about logical consistency in the story. I get called genre trash because people are able to identify what I'm doing instead of blindly chasing novelty.
+
+I also learned this is a pathetically small community in the scale of trying to make it as an author. There's like a couple hundred people tops.
+--- 21918157
+>>21917432 (OP)
+hmm I would like to talk to someone about a book I read
+irl
+>cuh that is so not bussin fr fr that's cap why you reading for?
+online
+>well while I think tolstoy was a gay jew you have to keep in mind there is three stories being told in parallel to compare to one another...
+
+yeah /lit/ when shitposting or not is better than most people. unless you're in a reading club or something good luck finding someone else who read a book you read these days in your age group.
+--- 21918169
+Before I found /lit/ I never touched any classics
+The most ambitious book I had read was 1984
+Also Shakespeare which I only read for school but even then it was a abridged and simplified text
+--- 21918340
+>>21917432 (OP)
+I don't like to admit it because it's pretty sad but /lit/ and 4chan as a whole unironically changed my life. It may be shit, it might be filled with retards and maybe the /pol/chuds break out of their containment boards but 4chan is the only large place left on the internet where you can actually get quality discussion. Reddit, Twitter, Hacker News, no matter where you turn you get the same shallow sanitised opinion that has been permitted by that community. 4chan made me engage with history, literature, technology and science. If I had never gone to 4chan I don't know what I'd be like but I know that I'd be worse.
+--- 21918376
+>>21918340
+4chan as a concept is brilliant. The issue is that humanity has proven it is not ready for such freedom unless we accept a significant lowering of average discourse.
+--- 21918419
+>>21917432 (OP)
+If I had to get rid of Harvard's humanities or /lit/ I would get rid of Harvard's. I have gotten into intellectual communities in Catholic, philosophical, literary, and pyschological domains and consistently /lit/ punches at the weight of the top 10-5% of an ivy league. This place saved me from the cultural Protestant wasteland of the Midwest America and allowed me to access intellectual material I would have never found without it. /lit/ isn't, however, better than the best professors at these institutions but they are as good as the best students so do with that what you will. That being said, I guarentee in heaven the realization will be that this was our Parisian cafe, this was our Athens, this was Alexandria. It's been an absolute pleasure and I love this place.
+--- 21918425
+>>21918419
+I have an Ivy League PhD and /lit/ is miles better than any conversation I ever had in that fucking shithole. There is nothing special whatsoever about academia, it's just a good library card combined with mandatory membership in a club filled with midwit diversity hires.
+--- 21918427
+>>21918419
+https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8CB85C3DF82DF9EB
+--- 21918455
+>>21918425
+>I have an Ivy League PhD and /lit/ is miles better than any conversation I ever had in that fucking shitho
+Ouch. It hurts when the credentialed person says it (I'm bachelors state school)
+--- 21918475
+>>21918376
+I disagree, the lows on 4chan are about as low as the lows on reddit and the average discourse on reddit is definitely worse than 4chan
+--- 21919254
+back in Germany I used to be part of a social club where we read books and discussed politics. It was run by this older communist guy who was so far left he had more in common with the fringe right that mostly attended these meetings. 
+He was old and intransigent, and was always talking about how he hates trannies and how gay people should be executed on sight, while also being quite well versed in the intricacies of Russian literature and German poetry.
+He was what the young people today would describe as 'based'. A fun guy for all his faults, and who I imagine writes most of these comments.
+--- 21919258
+>>21919254
+Just add that's unlike most people here he was a fucking player and always swimming in 25 yo pussy despite being broke and close to 50
+--- 21920280
+/lit/ taught me four new words/concepts today:
+>polysemy
+>phonosemantic matching
+>intransigent
+>Flâneur
+I also learned about the differences between sobriquet, epithet, appellation, nom de guerre and nom de plume.
+
+I really appreciate this board and think there is a lot to gain if you ask the right questions or have the patience & wisdom to steer a conversation towards elucidation. 
+
+Obviously the more learned you are, the more you can contribute to /lit/; and the more you contribute, the more chance that you add to your trove of knowledge through didacticism or questioning. 
+
+As another anon put it, this is our agora (another new word!) in Athens. The Board is slow and small enough to profoundly impact the culture in lasting positive ways.
+--- 21920304
+i will never forget the analytic / synthetic a priori / posteriori distinction
+--- 21920307
+>>21920304
+qrd?
+--- 21920384
+>>21918419
+I hate the fact that I can have better conversations with illiterate retards, and I mean quite literally ESL people from other countries that cannot into grammar at any degree, and have better more thoughtful conversations with them on this website than going to any place built and centered on higher education.
+--- 21920415
+>>21920384
+I must have been drunk when I wrote this. Because I actually love this fact. It's what makes this community more inviting and innovative than any other. Despite all the flaws and bigotry openly aired flagrantly in humor despite it's absolute seriousness there is no other place I can talk about having sex with a pokemon in one moment and then immediately pivot into a high context discussion about the taxes and social applications of a fictional society before bringing up some book or essay and being able to share it with people. Just the other day we were shitposting on /tv/ about how gay the office is before going into an essay about executive management and the types of people who get caught in the capitalist spiral. It was great. I shared the essay and then the other came back to talk about it unfortunately the thread 404'd before I could re-engage.
+--- 21920464
+I was always looking for something since I was a little but I was born in lower middle class 3rd world shithole so there wasn't much hope for me anyway. Me being a sensitive fag I got bullied and sexually harassed. Teachers and parents beat the shit out of me because I was bad at sciences and purged any love of books from my heart. Then internet happened and I got hooked. At 16 I discovered 4chan but didn't use it until I was 19 because again was a meek scared kid. Started with /pol/ I got bullied once again and pretty hard because of flag ids and being a shitskin. Then I started lurking on creative boards and finally for the second time in life felt true acceptance, nobody said why I am nerdy or skinny or weak or gay they just signified "welcome home faggot". 
+
+I was always looking for knowledge and creative boards played a pretty big part to help me with that. It sort of ended here(at least normal understanding on knowledge) on /lit/ when you fags gave me the access to whole human endeavour. The world gave me no answers. But these funny little posts with funny numbers meant a lot, a lot to me. I feel like my only real growth happened on 4chan, I felt like an individual. This ain't no puritanical eden but it is truly human and more accepting than "real world" out there. 
+
+Don't think I have ever recovered from the bullshit upbringing but I owe it to 4chan(nel) to quite a lot, actually everything whatever I am right now(at least artistically and philosophically). Sometimes it surprises me that how much I have learned when I consider my material circumstances, that's all because of /lit/ and other creative boards. Contrary to opinion this place is very "tolerant" and diverse and I don't care what anyone says. I had few of the most real and sincere and intelligent conversations with anons. And few of the extremely rude one and sometimes I also act as a dickhead. I don't know, I'll always have a tender spot of this shithole no matter how much I pretend to hate it. 
+
+Thank you /lit/. Lots of love for my faggots.
+--- 21920495
+>>21920464
+Where are you from, anon? Welcome home.
+--- 21920815
+>>21920495
+Pakistan
+--- 21920833
+>>21920815
+Damn, that's pretty cool. Stay safe, keep reading, and find yourself. That will produce good in the world. 
+
+Salaam alaykum, brother.
+--- 21920846
+I used to be retarded; I'm still retarded, but now I have a personal library.
+--- 21920852
+>>21920833
+So nice of you anon. I am trying.
+
+>Salaam alaykum, brother.
+Walaikum Assalam, fren.
+--- 21920869
+>>21920860
+That was preplanned

lit/21917529.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,156 @@
+-----
+--- 21917529
+what the FUCK did they do to those books?
+--- 21917534
+>>21917529 (OP)
+I think it's pretty self evident what was done to that library and its contents OP, I also think the red circle is rather reduntant.
+--- 21917537
+>>21917534
+>circle
+--- 21917541
+>>21917537
+meant to say shape. sorry im on my phone.
+--- 21917543
+>>21917537
+Circle describes it's role better than calling it "red shape". Anyway this cunt is not me >>21917541
+--- 21917544
+Behind every smug destructive black is a white boomer who thinks John Lennon's Imagine is just around the corner.
+--- 21917552
+>>21917544
+Behind every black is a Southern gentleman literally or spiritually buck-breaking him.
+--- 21917559
+>>21917529 (OP)
+Books? I just see the face of a large black man.
+--- 21917562
+Was this really worth a thread?
+--- 21917569
+>>21917529 (OP)
+is that the black people book section?
+--- 21917576
+>>21917562
+Chuds need to vent on slower boards, bro. Give them a break.
+--- 21917578
+>>21917529 (OP)
+Blacked
+--- 21917587
+>>21917529 (OP)
+>I
+>CAN'T
+>READ
+>ACK
+--- 21917596
+>>21917576
+>Chuds
+go back
+--- 21917632
+>go back
+--- 21918579
+>>21917529 (OP)
+I certainly hope those aren't all real, old books that have been niggerified. Hopefully they're just plastic fakes or something.... I fear the worst.
+--- 21918588
+>>21917529 (OP)
+Trying to goad racists into buying the books to deface the nignog.
+--- 21918605
+>>21918579
+Let me put it this way, anon. A pile of cheap, new, fake books would cost more to procure than a pile of used classics, especially if one were not picky about titles.
+--- 21918613
+Based. I hope those were all rare and expensive. Chuds BTFO forever
+--- 21918838
+>>21917587
+that's james baldwin not st. floyd, although he probably did choke on cock
+--- 21918849
+>>21918613
+>ruining your own books with nigger faces to own the rightwingers
+stunning and brave
+--- 21918884
+>>21917562
+It's important to remind yourself how inherently destructive blacks are
+--- 21918897
+>>21918884
+True.
+--- 21918919
+>>21917544
+boomers had more culture than zoomers as it currently stands, like it or not, that being said, their ideology is the destructive part of them, their art & culture isn't necessarily so if you take it out of the context in which it was fostered.
+--- 21918920
+>>21918884
+I mean that can be said within these quarters but if you say that around the general public people will think you're a scumbag, as true as the statement stands.
+--- 21918927
+>>21918920
+>normies are retarded and brainwashed
+more news at 11
+--- 21918932
+>>21918927
+it is what it is. truth of the matter is sometimes you gotta just pick your battles
+--- 21919255
+>>21917529 (OP)
+NIGGERED
+--- 21919266
+who gives a fuck faggot
+my captcha verification: 8YXPTA
+--- 21919271
+>>21918932
+and sometimes you have to pick cotton (esp. if you are a negro)
+--- 21919280
+>>21917534
+I wouldn't have seen it if OP didnt marked it
+--- 21919297
+>>21918897
+why they have to be like this?
+--- 21919302
+>>21917529 (OP)
+I once saw one of those books where the pages were folded to create the shape of a heart when fanned open. Out of curiosity I started reading it to see what book had been destroyed. It was some useless book about trigonometry or something. Can you imagine a hardcover trigonometry book?
+--- 21919649
+>>21917529 (OP)
+Did they just... Paint over it??
+--- 21919675
+>>21919271
+Ha
+--- 21919703
+>>21917529 (OP)
+Now I can only buy shares of a slave off a shelf? Capitalism has failed, I want the whole deal!
+--- 21919761
+>>21917529 (OP)
+BOOKED
+--- 21920684
+>>21917529 (OP)
+I think that it's probably a book panel. Book panels are used for decoration in order to give the illusion of a grand personal library.
+--- 21920690
+>>21918919
+their "art" is shit and lame and wont survive this cenutry
+--- 21920702
+>>21918897
+--- 21920705
+>>21919297
+they're animals. if they ate people they'd eat them alive
+--- 21920731
+>>21920702
+Lol
+--- 21920734
+>>21919297
+White supremacy
+Slavery
+Not enough gibs
+--- 21920750
+>>21917529 (OP)
+is that jane goodall?
+--- 21921661
+>>21918897
+>>21920702
+If God is a merciful and compassionate god, then why did he create the negro?
+--- 21921802
+>>21921661
+When, long ago, the gods created Earth
+In Jove's fair image Man was shap'd at birth.
+The beasts for lesser parts were next design'd;
+Yet were they too remote from humankind.
+To fill the gap, and join the rest to man,
+Th'Olympian host conceiv'd a clever plan.
+A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
+Fill'd it with vice, and call'd the thing a NIGGER
+--- 21921911
+>>21920702
+Worse than beastly.
+--- 21922042
+>>21917541
+>sorry im on my phone.
+tf that has to do with anything

lit/21917688.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,771 @@
+-----
+--- 21917688
+Cultivation Edition
+
+Previous thread: >>21908871 →
+
+>Recommended reading charts (Look here before asking for vague recs)
+https://mega.nz/folder/kj5hWI6J#0cyw0-ZdvZKOJW3fPI6RfQ/folder/guIyhAzS
+
+>Archive
+https://warosu.org/lit/?task=search2&search_subject=sffg
+
+>Goodreads
+https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1029811-sffg
+
+>Thread theme
+https://youtu.be/rZZxdDQubTs [Embed]
+
+Glory days of progression fantasy when?
+--- 21917730
+sneed
+--- 21917736
+I enjoy reading about Dwarfs in fantasy setting and generally love reading about underground adventures or exploring underground ruins and what nots. What fantasy books would you recommend for this, /sffg/?
+--- 21917740
+First for women mc and women authors
+--- 21917749
+Why is goodreads such a pile of shit?
+I want to find new stuff to read and sort by genres and stuff
+Porn websites give me more power with filters than this piece of crap
+<genre/tag> <genre/tag> <genre/tag> since_year:2000 blacklist: author:female protagonist:female
+Why can't you do this?
+--- 21917758
+Imma repost this for some help fag to help.
+>>21909028 →
+>>21909028 →
+--- 21917764
+>>21917736
+Dwarven Nations Trilogy by Dan Parkinson
+Stormblade by Nancy Varian Berberick
+The Gates of Thorbadin by Dan Parkinson
+Dark Thane 
+All of them are set in the dragonlance universe
+--- 21917765
+>>21917749
+Amazon bought them then laid of most of the developers.
+--- 21917766
+>>21917758
+Find a decent narrator voice and put the entirety of the text through ElvenAI. Your only choice.
+--- 21917778
+>>21917765
+It's fucking cancer
+Why can I sort porn but not books?!
+I don't even want recommendations I just want to sort with tags so I can find something interesting
+I hate bezos so fucking much it's not like shit isn't tagged on goodreads (albeit improperly) you just can't sort by them
+--- 21917805
+>>21917766
+>ElvenAI
+They want e bux and only allow 10k characters per month.
+I would probably finish the entire series faster by eye than spend a year plus turning one book into an audiobook.
+--- 21917810
+>>21917778
+Use their API then.
+--- 21917820
+>>21917810
+Can I easily use this or do I have to jump through 200 hoops?
+Starting with making an account
+--- 21917824
+>>21917764
+Do I have to know anything beforehand about Dragonlance as a setting or can I just jump straight into the books?
+--- 21917875
+>>21917824
+Dwarven Nations and Gates are set hundred of years before the Main storyline so you can jump straight into them.
+--- 21917925
+>>21917392 →
+>Malazan: butts and thicc ladies
+Hmm, tell me more.
+--- 21917952
+>>21917778
+Stop watching porn it is cancer
+--- 21917958
+>>21917952
+>he thinks i "watch" porn
+Sorry to tell you son but I didn't mean 3d trash
+--- 21917988
+I just read the released chapters of Ave Xia Rem Y and I really liked it. I consume a lot of chinkshit and this is the first "standard" cultivation novel I've read that was natively written in English not counting cradle. I have to say that this fact alone really elevates it, there's always something lost in translation especially when authors try to be "profound" or whatever. The characters and plot are pretty decent. Overall I would definitely recommend it.
+--- 21917990
+>>21917952
+Momcest porn is Kino tho?!??
+--- 21918013
+>>21917988
+It's a weird one to me because by the name it SHOULD be a cliche parody sort of deal, but it's actually just a xianxia story played straight.
+--- 21918051
+>>21917483 →
+--- 21918073
+>>21918051
+Is
+>Yet there was no wind in the chamber.
+A sentence fragment?
+--- 21918120
+>>21918073
+I guess it's technically a complete sentence, it just starts with a conjunction, which is awkward in the first paragraph of the book.
+--- 21918161
+>>21918120
+>expecting a fucking Conan novel to use strict grammar
+baka
+--- 21918166
+>>21917673 →
+That kinda reminds me The Raven Tower, which has a large boulder as a character with a twist. Maybe litrpg isn't the best choice for trying out various narrative experiments like that since from my limited experience that isn't the focus at and most likely not what the readers want. You say it was well reviewed, which is interesting though. Maybe that's mostly from people who wanted something more, but it's probably for some other reason.
+
+I'll guess at a divisive ending: the sunflower uses the girl and all other characters as nutrients and plays it up in a really melodramatic way. Then it also reveals something where the reader feels tricked because it changes a lot and there was no reasonable way for the reader to anticipate it.
+--- 21918172
+>>21917765
+Amazon bought Goodreads in 2013, 10 years ago.
+
+>>21917810
+>>21917820
+The API is no longer available.
+--- 21918222
+>>21917925
+Erikson loves big ladies and he makes that quite clear.
+--- 21918489
+Any DnD-like novels?
+--- 21918535
+>>21918489
+Depends on what you mean by that. There are literally several 100s of novels set in the official DnD campaign settings. There are also many novels that people say are like DnD but it's questionable at best whether those opinions can be trusted.
+--- 21918544
+>>21918466 →
+To be fair you can't base a world where gods exist and interact with people off of ancient pagan belief systems, which were all post adhoc interactions of people with different founding myths.
+
+Something like Christianity really is a better model for that; God has a distinct moral philosophy he expects in followers and has the ability to interact directly with their hearts if need be.
+
+It really depends on what you want to do with your gods and your setting. In Lord of the Mysteries, for example, the gods are all super-powered former humans who ascended to godhood and can barely hold on to their own sanity. The scriptures and the organization of their churches don't even matter that much to them (if they do care its a personal preference), all that matters is the anchoring of their humanity by the prayers of the devout. Without people caring about them, they'd turn into monsters.
+--- 21918567
+>>21918166
+The black company has talking menhir rocks as characters, you never see them move but they move when you are looking away
+--- 21918582
+>>21918567
+spoopy
+--- 21918589
+>>21917805
+Right but, where else am i supposed to get the voice of grey delisle to read smut to me?
+--- 21918601
+>>21917688 (OP)
+Infinity Gate, Pandominion #1 - M.R. Carey (2023) 
+
+Infinity Gate sets up for the books that will come afterwards. It's not a self-contained story at all. The story opens with an unknown narrator who announces that the events of this story have already happened and now they're presenting it to the reader. The book ends with the team, who are introduced in the opening, having all came together to do whatever they will.
+
+Those who go into this book blind may have a different reading experience than those who have looked a synopsis or other material provided by the publisher. The story and characters didn't go where they initially seemed they would be going, at least they didn't for me. I was initially disappointed because I only saw what the premise was, infinite variations of Earth have become available, and that's true, but also misleading in that it's mostly background rather than the focus. I wanted to this to be about a civilization that begins exploring alternate Earths and interacting with them in various ways. Instead the series will probably be about The Pandominion, a federation of a million Earths, versus The Machine Hegemony, who have at least a similar number of Earths.
+
+The three primary POVs almost exclusively proceed in linear fashion rather than alternating between them, with the third being more than half the book. The first is a middle aged Nigerian woman who builds the gateway to other Earths. This part tries to explain how it could theoretically occur, and it seemed reasonable enough, but only because I wouldn't know. The second is a young Nigerian man who in his attempts to escape destitution ends up with a life beyond his imagining. I thought the drama of his life in Lagos was more interesting than the military SF it becomes. The third is a teenage lagomorph girl, who is decidedly more of the anthro variety rather than the sort that have a few animal features. Many different sorts of humanoids are presented as characters, though almost all are mammals.
+
+The central theme is about empathy. The organics refuse to believe that the synthetics can be sentient while the synthetics refuse to believe that organics can be anything more than instinct. Neither believes the other has an inner life. The Pandominion also excludes all non-Pandominion Earths from being real and thus anything can be done to them. Sometimes the allegories became a bit heavy-handed for my preference, though I think my tolerance for extremely inclusive AI rights has waned. I also didn't think the ones about colonial superpowers were handled that well.
+
+Maybe it will be different in the next book(s) but I would've liked to have more of an exploration of how the many societies differ, even when accounting for the homogenizing force of interglobalization, than about a war between individualist and collectivist civilizations with the viewpoint party doing their own independent stuff. Even so, I'll read the next book.
+
+Rating: 3.5/5
+--- 21918617
+I'm still slowly making my way through Consider Pleibas. GOOD FUCKING LORD there is so much padding and meandering and why do hard sci-fi authors like to write and write and write into the void MONGO WOULD BE APPALLED stupid fucking decisions like taking the Idiran captive with them and letting them move around even after he crushed the mass detector thing. I don't care about all this brooding nonsense. I want the damn plot to RESOLVE already. I feel the ship's crew is there to be there, to serve as plot devices and characters to bounce off of. Their motivation to be there and be crew members even, and presence is flimsy at best. Dumb decisions for the sake of plot.
+
+>>21917988
+Try Heaven's Laws: Prodigies.
+--- 21918623
+>>21918617
+Yeah, it's pretty bad and that's what I wrote about it. Amazing that he managed to get it published and have a long series.
+--- 21918626
+When did you realize this was his best work all along
+--- 21918664
+>>21918617
+>Try Heaven's Laws: Prodigies.
+>read reviews
+>MC says it would be okay for his love interest to have sex with other men while they are together
+>she gets raped later on
+Nice try, cuck.
+--- 21918671
+>>21918623
+It's clearly all an allegory for his personal beliefs but seen through some shroud of confusing mist, that is, the Culture('s existence) vs. Idirans. I can only hope other books are better or more wild wacky sci-fi stuff. Maybe I'll move on to something else. I had a good time with Demolished Man and I would like to find more like it. I have a small ~50s-60s backlog.
+>>21918664
+>MC says it would be okay for his love interest to have sex with other men while they are together
+I don't remember anything like that.
+>she gets raped later on
+Then the MC murders the dude and they find a way to unrape her, restoring her hymen then the MC and her get married and dual cultivate for the rest of the book SPOILERS
+--- 21918712
+>>21918671
+Recently I realized that I've read at least one sff novel published in almost every year from 1950-2023. I'm missing a couple, though I'll see about that soon. Before 1950 is a lot more spotty though.
+--- 21918757
+>>21918671
+>spoiler
+Not good enough, he should have murdered her too
+--- 21918801
+>>21918671
+Meh, even if that review made the cuckiest parts up the descriptions still made him seem like a beta simp type of character. I can only imagine it being an exercise in frustration to read that story.
+
+>>21918757
+Reminds of one chink novel where one of the women in the potential harem is raped and kills herself over it. I am a massive purityfag but that doesn't mean I want to see rape victims get murdered.
+--- 21918809
+>>21918757
+She didn't have any control over it because the guy who did it was some spoiled family pampered strong son with a history of RAPE and the only reason he died was because MC used space powers, of which he was a prodigy (get it?) in and nothing personnel'd the guy, which then started a war with their family. But MC's dad is super strong and so is MC's waifu's mentor so they helped out and trained them and things happened and it's been a while so my memory is fuzzy.
+>>21918801
+Meh okay dude.
+--- 21918812
+>>21918801
+>>21918809
+Dont care, if a woman doesnt bite off her tongue to escape being raped (necrophilia obviously cannot be held against her) then she didnt do everything she could to not be raped.
+--- 21918816
+>>21918812
+I don't remember what she did or didn't do but okay. I hope you have a good night, anon.
+--- 21918820
+>>21917778
+Christ you’re an insufferable little whiny bitch.
+--- 21918826
+>>21918816
+Hey no, argue with me :(
+--- 21918832
+>>21918820
+Fuck off bezos
+--- 21918910
+>>21917688 (OP)
+A sci-fi story based of that picture would make a pretty interesting read i think:
+>Some insane chinese scientist tries to make it possible for cultivation to actually occur.
+>Has to genetically splice human dna with bugs and phtosythetic plants to make it viable.
+>Literally creates a race of cultivating bugmen.
+>To counter the tide of bugmen yuropoors take the cyborg route.
+>Mod themselves with mini nuclear reactors and become effectively imortal.
+>But in the process sterilize themselves with radiation exposure and can no longer procreate >Americucks try to seach out less dratic means.
+>End up tapping into other dimensions and discover mana is a thing.
+>All goes ok for them for a bit but the mana they've been utilizing attracts mini cthulu's.
+>So even though they become basically wizards, the more mentally weaker of their number gets body snatched by invading aliens from the recesses of the tapped into mana void.
+>These were known as the advancement wars...
+
+God dammit why can't someone competently write shit like this?!
+--- 21918914
+Okay so what has Rothfuss been doing exactly for the past twelve years? He pumped out The Wise Man's Fear in under four years and then he stopped. Isn't there supposed to be a third book? What happened?
+--- 21918926
+>>21918910
+You have to pay for fetish material or write it yourself.
+--- 21918941
+>>21918914
+Ive heard no less than three entirely disparit explanations for the book not yet being out
+>the first draft was dogshit so he is rewriting the entire book
+>he is mentally unwell and this somehow means he cant do anything
+>he is scamming his agent
+The last one has the most evidence for it. She literally came out publicly and said that she had to sell some of her own personal assets to be able to buy more time for rothfus to write, and she also said that she has yet to see any writing period.
+--- 21918944
+>>21918914
+Masturbating to cuckold porn and he contributed to some video games as a writer as a kickstarter stretch goal.
+--- 21918952
+>>21918944
+Its a weird thing to know that a famous author might have busted a nut to some of the porn youve written.
+--- 21918959
+>>21918952
+Fantasy cuckold porn or mundane?
+--- 21918972
+>>21918959
+Dont judge me
+--- 21918977
+>>21918172
+> Amazon bought Goodreads in 2013, 10 years ago.
+And they haven't done anything with it since. They bought it for the data, same reason they bought the IMDB.
+--- 21919002
+>>21918972
+>Dont judge me
+That automatically makes me assume you are writing in the "true story" genre.
+--- 21919020
+Do you hate prologues that have no obvious link to the main plot of the story? I wrote one and they only feedback I got was they had no reason to care about the character(s) since they never appear again and it's confusing. I mean, sure, but that wasn't its purpose.
+--- 21919027
+>>21919002
+Oh god no, dogshit assumption anon.
+I write incest erotica, which naturally has some element of cuckoldry. If I take some time to detail the experience of the cucked party, i will get many much more clicks. I dont like it but i do what i have to do, so dont judge me.
+--- 21919029
+>>21919020
+Did yoyr prologue have any purpose at all?
+--- 21919033
+Dwarfs should be medieval German themed, not Scottish. Scots don't have a culture of artisanship and war(unless you count bar brawls and beating up unarmed protestors...).
+--- 21919046
+>>21919029
+My idea was for it to initially show the world was harsh and full of magic, but the main purpose was to foreshadow some mysteries that don't become apparent for at least a book or two. So on a reread you go "ooh!"
+--- 21919051
+>>21919027
+>Oh god no, dogshit assumption anon.
+It was mostly a joke, anon.
+Incest commonly borders on cuckshit in many different ways, most common sharing because of course you can't expect horny mothers, sisters, aunt, daughters etc to be satisfied with just you.
+
+The sort where the protagonist steals his family members from another guy are less of a turnoff than that to me.
+
+Do you publish on storiesonline, literotica or another site?
+--- 21919066
+Been stuck in a rut last year with just about every book I pick up ending up beinga total flop I drop midway because of how shit it is. Decided to just pick a couple of authors I liked and go through their works even if they're not their magnum opus. Fuck me did that ever do wonders for my reading enjoyment. Even a mid Zelazny blows 90% of the other shit out there out of the water.
+So far I've read
+>Lord Demon
+>A Night in the Lonesome October
+>Dilvish the Damned
+>Doorways in the Sand
+
+And recently went with Vance for my latest one
+>Last Castle
+And I enjoyed them all greatly.
+I'm either turning into a >muh prose litfag or I really just had terrible luck with the titles I picked last year.
+--- 21919081
+>>21919033
+Dwarfs should be Italian renaissance themed.
+--- 21919084
+>>21918941
+do you have a link to the agent stuff? it doesn’t make sense
+--- 21919130
+>>21919051
+Literotica, and yeah when i do it i use the other family member that was cucked.
+>because of course you can't expect horny mothers, sisters, aunt, daughters etc to be satisfied with just you.
+I absolutely can expect that, im the author after all.
+--- 21919134
+>>21918820
+Kys bezos
+--- 21919139
+>>21919084
+>https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/i1na9e/betsygate_facebook_post_and_comments_documentation/
+Inb4
+--- 21919146
+>>21919130
+>I absolutely can expect that, im the author after all.
+Based. I admit it's more of a thing in the "incest harem" genre or the semi-realistic incest drama ones where reality gets in the way, e.g. dad is too nice to expect his daughter to sacrifice her chance at a normal life for him.
+--- 21919175
+>>21919146
+>e.g. dad is too nice to expect his daughter to sacrifice her chance at a 
+As a reader my suspension of disbelief is like a slab of depleted uranium. I like when its written in some outrageously convenient way that makes it possible for them to live in some version of reality. Hell even the "and somehow nobody ever found out" thing doesnt bother me.
+
+But something that does bug the shit out of me is when an author makes their stuff realistic simply for the sake of it.
+>ofcourse it doesnt have a happy ending, thats how real life works :)
+Like holy shit blow it out your ass you sanctimonious gout goblin.
+--- 21919208
+Outside of Neuromancer and Burning Chrome, William Gibson is the middest of mid-tier science fiction authors.
+--- 21919220
+>>21919175
+Yeah, I like it when authors try to sell me what I like in a way that makes me believe it even if I looked at with skeptical eyes but I would rather forcibly suspend my disbelief than try to cope with what I don't like.
+
+Authors have a tendency to add epilogues that just rain REALITY on their ridiculous stories, too. Yes, I totally needed the epilogue to tell me which character dies randomly, cheats on their s/o and gets divorced, gets knocked up by a random person, moves on from the happy harem situation with a random person or whatever else.
+--- 21919226
+>>21918166
+>I'll guess at a divisive ending:
+Not quite. The ending is a bit more complicated. There are some things that don't add up during the story, but the curse of being a LitRPG webnovel is that all of those things could be explained by the author being lazy or not trying too hard to be consistent. I saw dozens of such stories. So when it is revealed that the Sunflower...doesn't exist...and is merely a traumatic creation of the girl's mind that helps her deal with the fact she kills things and drinks people's blood to survive, it makes me feel lied to.
+
+Like, I'm sure I saw similar stories before and executed better, this one had potential yet didn't quite nail the right way to execute the idea. I call bullshit on the author explaining it as 'unreliable narrator'. Big pile of shit, unreliable narration means the PoV might be mistaken or seeing things not quite true, but there's a difference between unreliable narration and straight up false reality presented from the PoV of a character that doesn't even exist.
+--- 21919233
+>>21919208
+Wrong. The Bridge trilogy and the Blue Ant trilogy are damn good, especially Idoru and Pattern Recognition. They just aren't hard-scifi.
+--- 21919246
+>>21919220
+>I would rather forcibly suspend my disbelief than try to cope with what I don't like
+Wisdom
+--- 21919331
+>>21918926
+And who would i pay to write it?
+--- 21919391
+>>21919331
+>>21918952
+--- 21919482
+>>21917008 →
+>I've waited over twenty years for a postmodern/poststructural analytical discussion of my series (Malazan Book of the Fallen). In fact, I'd just about given up hope that these elements would ever be noticed (how many students of philosophy read Epic Fantasy? Well, at least one!). I was lucky in that my initial foray into fiction writing (a Creative Writing program at the University of Victoria) was in the midst of the Magic Realist movement in literature, which as you know is explicitly deconstructed in terms of narrative reliability, while also openly challenging notions of objective reality. Magic Realism of course is deeply connected, philosophically, with Existentialism (made metamorphic beneath tyrannical polities), and all of this led, in a roundabout way, to metafiction. Alas, most metafiction struck me as too obvious, and I remembered wondering, way back then, if there was a way to make metafiction subtle. Then I began to wonder if one could make metafiction a hidden meta-narrative embracing a postmodern, poststructural story. Turns out, the answer is yes, as epitomized in the Malazan Book of the Fallen (the cipher unlocking the metafictional element to the series is found in Toll the Hounds). But for me, all of that was just me grappling with a growing uncertainty regarding almost everything, making the process of writing the series a kind of dialectic, not only between me and myself, but also between realities: ours here on Earth, and that other one being a made-up Malazan world. I would hasten to point out that so much of what happens in the series is in actual homage to traditional fantasy (especially sword & sorcery): I grew up loving dramatic clashes, battles and sword-fights, dragons and all the rest. Without all that cool stuff, how could I hope to appease my fellow fans of fantasy? So, despite the overarching, philosophical considerations I was exploring, the Malazan tale is also all about Big Scenes Where Cool Stuff Happens (lest we forget!). --Steven Erikson
+--- 21919526
+>>21917688 (OP)
+The fuck is happening with Senjak family lore in Port of Shadows book?
+Cook is getting weirder.
+--- 21919536
+>>21919526
+>the fuck is happening in a cash in "sidequel" released almost 20 years after the last book in the series
+it's a mystery
+--- 21919539
+Amy decent fantasy stories with the Hero's Journey?
+--- 21919575
+>>21919482
+As a someone who hasn't read Malazan, trying to imbue the work with deeper themes or ideas is a very, very fine line to walk. 
+But after reading fiction for my entire life my opinion is this: If a seasoned reader cannot see what you are talking about in your work, you fucked up.
+If you only a person familiar with the works you were inspired by can see what you intended, you fucked up.
+If a seasoned reader cannot intuit things from your writing without context, you extremely fucked up. 
+
+There's a lot of place for subtlety in Fantasy, but one thing appears to be imperative: you need to provide basics by yourself, always. Give the reader all the tools necessary to understand what's going on. You need to not coddle the readers, but by assuming they can invoke understanding for your message out of the void is a doomed endevour. If you write more than one series and expect the reader to be familiar with both, or build upon your earlier stories, then it can be somewhat forgiven, but the talent and understanding necessary to pull it off raises exponentially, not linearly. 
+
+>t. The rare (In Erikson's mind, at least) philosophy student that reads Epic Fantasy. 
+In his description of his series I see the fault of many philosophers - they think just because they can write something and evoke a feeling then it somehows becomes profound and worthy. That is not the case. Fiction is multifaceted, and to raise above merely telling a story one needs to write something truly uncommon. In short - Erikson appears to arrogant midwit thinking he's better than he is, I'm still unconvinced to read his series. Not one person managed to convince me it's worthwhile.
+--- 21919580
+>>21919139
+>This article is right: authors don't owe their readership books, but what about the publishers who paid them
+KEK 
+OH SAY CAN YOU SEE
+--- 21919681
+>the hobbits walked for a while and then they stopped to eat and nap, and then they walked some more, and again they stopped for lunch, and soon they were on the road again, but not for long before they stopped to eat
+When do things start happening? I'm like 170 pages in
+--- 21919690
+>>21919681
+Remember to skip the Bombadil arc, it's boring as hell.
+--- 21919692
+>>21919681
+It can drag a bit, I understand, but to me the portion of the book starting from where Gandalf gives Frodo backstory on the ring and down to Hobbits meeting Tom is one of the best parts of the books. There is a weird suspense of them traveling around village roads and forests while evil wraiths hunt them.
+--- 21919704
+>>21918617
+HOLY BUTTFUCKING TITTY NIPPLESI FINISHED AND WHAT A SHITTY BOOK
+WHAT A SHITTY ENDING
+WHAT A SHITTY ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME TO GET TO THIS ENDING OF THIS SUBPAR SCI-FI BOOK
+--- 21919716
+>>21919575
+Erikson's idea of profound is having his characters spout banal monologues in between of an incoherent recap of his tryhard tabletop games.
+--- 21919838
+Is The Painted Man worth reading? My colleague recommended it to me - usually I'll read dino-fantasy like Dunsany and Peake so not sure it'll be worth my time.
+--- 21919839
+>>21918601
+your """reviews""" are SHIT
+FUCK OFF
+--- 21919921
+>>21919226
+Oh, well, yeah, that's the other way to go about it. Various examples come to mind.
+--- 21919925
+>>21919838
+It's not. Resume as you were.
+--- 21919930
+>>21919704
+You ignored many warnings.
+--- 21919995
+>>21919930
+I never read his/your review and now that I'm done with the book, my efforts to search it have failed. So link me.
+>reading reviews before reading a book
+I'm not one of those "likes to be spoiled" faggotrons.
+--- 21920008
+>>21919995
+Has not knowing anything about it before you read it worked out well for you overall?
+--- 21920035
+>>21919995
+>my efforts to search it have failed 
+1. Look at the OP of this thread 
+2. Open the warosu link 
+3. Search "Consider Phlebas"
+4. Realize you have a skill issue
+--- 21920162
+>>21919995
+excuses aside, be glad. you're one of the few sci-fi fans who are neurotypical enough to realize the culture is fucking horrid shit. you have now realized you don't need to read the next 10000 pages of that trash and your reading schedule for the next few months has been freed up and you get to read something good now. i recommend lyonesse by vance
+--- 21920239
+>>21917736
+I had a lot of fun reading through the Out of the Abyss dnd campaign.
+I tried to play it with my friends but we only got like 20% through before it fizzled out, but honestly just reading the book is an adventure in itself.
+--- 21920240
+>>21920008
+I always go into books as blind as I can. I don't even like to read the back-of-the-book blurb anymore, anythhing beyond a very brief/mild summary of course.
+>>21920035
+Joke's on me. I was typing "Pleibas".
+>>21920162
+I probably won't continue, at least any time soon. I did grab some Vance standalones but that wasn't one of them and I don't recall being interested in the past. I'll figure it out. I'm never without something to read.
+--- 21920249
+>>21920240
+probably for the best. vance has a pretty peculiar writing style which i definitely wouldn't call difficult but it does help have gotten used to it before picking up lyonesse (it's a series not a standalone), which imo is his best work.
+--- 21920253
+>>21920240
+Addendum: I did recently read Feersum Injinn by the same author and enjoyed it a lot so maybe I had hope that The Culture would have been good, at least the introductory book.
+--- 21920261
+>>21920240
+If you wanted to truly go in blind then have a huge list of books and use a random number generator. Even better, you don't even know what's in the list and someone tells you what to read. Even better than that, the person provides it to you with any title or author known. The best would be entirely random text presented to you.
+--- 21920265
+>>21920261
+what a retarded suggestion
+--- 21920273
+>>21920265
+That's what makes it so appropriate.
+--- 21920278
+>>21920261
+Recently I grabbed a bunch of books from the Sci-Fi and the Fantasy Masterworks torrents on /t/. My criterion then was whatever sounded neat title-wise. That's how I found The Demolished Man and I loved it.
+--- 21920286
+>>21920278
+It's easier to luck out with a curated selection for sure.
+--- 21920327
+>Read book about post apocalypse from jewish author
+>humans are irredemable ignorant retards, and just nuke themselves again as soon as they recover from the first nuclear apocalypse. the one jew in the setting is a saintly ascetic
+
+>read book about time travel by jewish author
+>main character ends up having gay homosex with himself
+
+>read book about telepathy by jewish author
+>main character ends up staring at his baby sister's vagina and describing it, no this isn't related to telepathy or the main plot at all
+
+i think i'll start checking the author's biography from now on.
+--- 21920343
+>>21917740
+The bestiality themed doujins are his best work, he should stop with the incest ones.
+--- 21920366
+>>21920253
+Consider Phlebas is probably the worst Culture book.
+Player of Games is often recommended as starting point for this reason. Personally, I really loved Use of Weapons.
+--- 21920370
+>>21919681
+I enjoy the idle part of the book, make me feel comfy and tiny as a hobbit
+>>21919690
+it's strange more than boring imo
+--- 21920374
+>>21920327
+titles of the books aforementioned?
+--- 21920377
+>>21920327
+>Read book about post apocalypse from jewish author
+>humans are irredemable ignorant retards, and just nuke themselves again as soon as they recover from the first nuclear apocalypse. the one jew in the setting is a saintly ascetic
+Miller was not a jew tho.
+
+>read book about time travel by jewish author
+>main character ends up having gay homosex with himself
+Heinlein was not a jew tho. 
+
+>read book about telepathy by jewish author
+>main character ends up staring at his baby sister's vagina and describing it, no this isn't related to telepathy or the main plot at all
+Ok which one is this? 
+
+>>21919704
+Be advised that other Culture books are better, but not by much.
+--- 21920385
+>>21920374
+>>21920377
+canticle of liebowitz (ethnic jew converted to catholicism)
+the man who folded himself
+dying inside by roger silverberg
+--- 21920389
+>>21920366
+How hard does Player of Games jerkoff this Damage game?
+--- 21920397
+>>21920327
+>read book by the Dick himself
+>obligatory khazar female character with fat tits
+--- 21920420
+>>21920397
+title
+--- 21920421
+>>21920397
+Descartes liked Khazar milkers?
+--- 21920447
+>>21920389
+had to look it up to remember what Damage is. might be mentioned once, but doesn't occur in the plot at all.
+--- 21920453
+>>21917688 (OP)
+I'm not too into sci-fi but 2001 and its sequels scratched an itch for psychedelic hard science I didn't even know I had. Any more like it?
+--- 21920456
+>>21920385
+I don't find any info about Miller jew origin.
+I've partly read Canticle up to some chapter after the second part because the tone became kind of pessimistic but I still have in mid to finish it
+--- 21920488
+>>21920456
+it's circumstantial. here is my evidence for that supposition:
+>At school Miller had called himself an atheist but in 1947, at the age of 25, he converted to Roman Catholicism
+>Miller is also the third most common surname among Jews in the United States (after Cohen and Levy), from the Yiddish cognate of Müller, which would be Miller (מיללער) or Milner[10](מילנער).
+>he bombed a christian monestary in ww2
+>he made a misanthropic jew-worshipping book
+
+that said, the first chapter of canticle is unironically great, i agree. brother francis a cute and it's a pretty optimistic story for its subject matter
+--- 21920547
+>>21920420
+Most of his novels lol
+>>21920447
+GOOD then
+--- 21920550
+>>21919925
+I'll still need to skim the Wikipedia page so that I can politely pretend I read it when my colleague asks me if I enjoyed it.
+--- 21920580
+>>21920397
+>khazar female character with fat tits
+i will now read your book
+--- 21920881
+>>21920327
+>i think i'll start checking the author's biography from now on.
+--- 21920970
+>>21920488
+>he bombed a christian monestary in ww2
+lot of allied soldiers bombed christian building also the fact in itself spawned the trauma in him and fear of losing culture, science etc
+--- 21921031
+/SFFG/ Recommendations:
+
+Read Reverend Insanity, Lord of The Mysteries, Neuromancer, Hyperion, The Prince of Nothing
+
+Also read The Wandering Inn, Between Two Fires, Mother of Learning, Cradle, I Shall Seal the Heavens, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Poppy War.
+--- 21921186
+>>21920881
+>Sauron's orcs
+>contemplating how to fuck off and raid after the war
+>Saruman's uruk hai and half-orcs
+>loyal till the end
+--- 21921189
+>>21920970
+actually only one soldier bombed christian building in ww 2
+his name? walter m (or as i like to call him j) miller junior
+--- 21921413
+>Lord Randyll is of the view that you might benefit from a good hard raping
+How did someone so based father someone like Ser Piggy?
+--- 21921502
+>>21921413
+based
+--- 21921509
+I am getting close to the end of Mother of Learning. I think it started off really slow, but the later characters are really cool and it really starts to pick up a good pace from the middle on.
+
+The lich character is cool as fuck. He actually seems very similar to the main character from the Sylver Seeker litrpg and I absolutely love it.
+--- 21921518
+>>21919838
+The first one was alright.The rest was bad.
+>>21917736
+I liked "The Dwarves" series by Markus Heitz,I read them in german,but It has been a long time since I read them.
+--- 21921559
+>>21919580
+Whats funny? Im genuinely not seeing it. If you sign a contract and then fail to fulfil it...????
+--- 21921589
+>>21921559
+it's funny because it demonstrates dismissiveness and contempt of the people who appreciate your art and servility towards the richfags you're tied up with
+i'm not shocked or anything. this attitude is why i don't feel bad for pirating. it's just so funny how she said the quiet part out loud like that
+--- 21921625
+>>21921509
+I just finished re-reading it. Comfy.
+--- 21921631
+I wanna read Kingkiller chronicles but I don't think I can bring myself to start something with no end in sight. Am I missing out because I've heard nothing but good things about the 2 existing novels
+--- 21921636
+>>21921631
+The main character spends the first two books simping over his crush, but the worldbuilding and overall plot are pretty good.
+--- 21921717
+>>21921509
+>>21921625
+>Time loop
+nope.png
+--- 21921732
+>>21921589
+>it's just so funny how she said the quiet part out loud like that
+What precicely gave you the idea that a publishing contract was ever "the quiet part"?
+--- 21921836
+vampirebros
+I agree with the anon that said the ending felt like an ass pull and rushed.
+but still a good book
+
+book 2 release date announcement soon according to the author
+--- 21921849
+>>21921836
+Vampires are one of the dumbest concepts ever
+>what if human, but le hecking immortal
+>what if human, but eat le blood
+>what if human, but le burn in sun
+I hate the popularity of such a stale and retarded concept whilst truly cool shit never makes the spotlight
+--- 21921856
+The absolute pinnacle of literature
+--- 21921860
+>>21921856
+I disagree, the homoerotica I've been reading is much better and I refuse to elaborate.
+--- 21921874
+>>21921849
+It makes a lot more sense if you recognize vampire myths as being about Jews.
+>drinking blood to treat porphyria, a common hereditary disease among the ashkenazi
+>repelled by silver (sound money) and crosses
+>large nosed Eastern Europeans
+Burning to ash in sunlight is an exaggeration of them sunburning easily and the immortality is either a callback to Judas as The Wandering Eternal Jew or a commentary on how hard it was to get rid of them for good.
+--- 21921880
+>>21921874
+>vampires are kikes
+Huh, it all makes sense now
+No wonder you see vampire tv shows all the time but no werewolf kino
+--- 21921883
+>>21921880
+>he thinks werewolfs are cool
+You dont get to have an opinion
+--- 21921887
+>>21921883
+The coolest part is where they become a wolf
+I like specific werewolf concepts, I disagree with the main schools of thought regarding werewolves
+--- 21921907
+>>21921887
+Name one(uno(1(01(.)))) specific werewolf concept that is cool
+--- 21921908
+>>21921874
+there was a /pol/ infographic comparing vampires to Jews and werewolves to Aryan Indo-Europeans.
+--- 21921914
+>>21921907
+No longer being human
+--- 21921919
+>>21921914
+So vampires are cool too?
+Are you seeing where im having trouble taking you seriously?
+--- 21921928
+>>21921908
+That one's mostly correct but relies on since-disproven models of how Neanderthals related to modern humans. The reality is that most of the (((vampire))) behaviors were selected for during recorded history by neighboring empires repeatedly killing off the Hebrews' warrior classes, from Egypt to Babylon to Greece to Rome.
+
+>>21921907
+Werewolves are a metaphor for berserker battle-trance behavior.
+--- 21921933
+>>21921919
+I think he was forced to watch twilight as a kid (or worse yet read it), and it has left a mental scar on his psyche. 
+I mean I don't like vamps either, but because 
+>muh undead
+I also don't like weres, because I don't like dog fuckers.
+Both of those subgenres have been turned into housewife romance shit, but I see they are moving away from them and going to ayyy lmaos these days.
+--- 21921936
+Why is it called a "litRPG" as if it's a roleplaying game? When I first heard of the genre, I thought it was like a choose-your-own adventure with encounters that can be resolved by simple stat checks and combat mechanics, but apparently it's just a genre of fantasy where RPG mechanics like leveling up are tangible in-setting?
+--- 21921944
+>>21921936
+It's a sort of subgenre of the more broad "gamelit", which is anything where game-like mechanics exist diegetically. LitRPG is just more specifically those mechanics being RPG stuff because those tend to be a lot more 'hard numbers' than some other gamelit stuff, I guess.
+--- 21921947
+>>21921936
+You answered your own question fagget. It uses the rpg mechanics in the plot to tell a story. Them having defined boundaries means ass pull shit has a small chance of happening.
+Stats sheets are shit, but someone using something everyone thought useless in a different way is always entertaining. Thinking outside the box.
+--- 21921953
+>>21921944
+litrpg is a catch-all as far as I'm concerned. I don't think a litrpg means the book needs to have a bunch of fucking numbers listed as if it adds one shit to the story or plot.
+
+The only people that want stats are the literal fucking autists who can't understand what is happening without it being spelled out to them. Like sanderson fans.
+--- 21921967
+>>21921836
+>>21921849
+>>21921874
+>>21921880
+>>21921914
+>>21921919
+>>21921928
+>>21921933
+>Vamp*re and Werew*lf fiction
+Cringe
+--- 21921979
+>>21921947
+>someone using something everyone thought useless in a different way is always entertaining
+That is so... Bland to me. It feels like it just constantly comes back to "this ability is actually busted if you put in a modicum of thought" and that's just really... Underwhelming to me. Like it's never using an actually quite minimal ability in an effective way, for example.
+--- 21922008
+>>21921967
+fuck off papist
+you will never understand the gothick
+--- 21922012
+In the lore of a tactics video game I wanted to make, vampires were under a vow to protect humanity against the forces of darkness, that's why they can only come out at night and need humans to survive and such.
+--- 21922041
+>>21921979
+>Like it's never using an actually quite minimal ability in an effective way, for example.
+Read more. This happens. But there is also the busted abilities doing busted things.
+--- 21922064
+>werewolf furry and a picturebook comicsfag
+vampirebros win
+--- 21922068
+>>21921509
+I thought he was a better writer in volume 4.
+--- 21922073
+>>21921849
+Hairy paws typed this post
+--- 21922087
+>>21922073
+Sadly not
+--- 21922089
+>>21921953
+A group of westerners invented "game lit" as an umbrella term because some people (allegedly) complained that some books tagged as litrpg didn't have a system and such. For instance early in the genre (in the west) was Drew Hayes' NPCs series which was definitely game oriented but kind of not litrpg. More "Guardians of the Flame in reverse". So I can see the logic, but I am personally not fussy about it.
+--- 21922184
+>sets up a continuation of a based series
+>it stops because he's old
+
+fuck
+--- 21922191
+Is there a word or phrase for when the text of a book is crafted to reflect the meaning of the text?
+Like the prose becoming more schizophrenic as a character is losing their mind.
+Or like in house of leaves where the text is formatted to look to the reader like it is described as in the book.
+
+I wanna call it diagetic prose but i dont think thats right.
+--- 21922206
+>>21922184
+I absolutely hated the ultrasonic hive weasels in that series. It was such a cocktease, a fascinating picture of a future galaxy with casual antigravity and FTL, wasted as a backdrop for medieval weasel-hive politics.
+--- 21922240
+>>21917688 (OP)
+Anyone got any decent Zombie novel recommendations like Day by Day and Arisen?
+--- 21922247
+>>21921944
+>>21921947
+My main concern is it being called "litRPG" like it's short for "literary roleplaying game" or something. Like the last word of the genre is "game", but it's not a game or even a CYOA, it's just a book.
+--- 21922250
+>>21922222 →
+--- 21922255
+>>21917688 (OP)
+What fantasy settings do dragons best? Especially elemental ones.
+--- 21922257
+>>21922255
+dragonlance
+--- 21922264
+>>21922247
+Just get over it already. It was named by Russians.
+--- 21922284
+>>21922041
+Examples?

lit/21917720.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,272 @@
+-----
+--- 21917720
+>https://youtube.com/watch?v=6SoCal8Yl1Y&pp=ygUYUmVkIGZsYWdzIGluIGhhbmR3cml0aW5n [Embed]
+
+This can’t be fucking real….
+--- 21917728
+>>21917720 (OP)
+She sounds like she has severe autism so I'd bet she's dead serious.
+--- 21917731
+>>21917720 (OP)
+I hate when people talk as if they're asking questions all the time...? Fuck these cunts.
+--- 21917777
+>>21917720 (OP)
+We need to sterilize people with bad handwriting.
+--- 21917813
+Zoomers, do they even still make you do handwriting at school? I remember exams where I had to handwrite essays that were 5 or 6 pages long in an hour and thinking even then that this handwriting shit would be dead as soon as everyone got a laptop.
+--- 21917838
+>>21917720 (OP)
+what would this bitch think of my handwriting
+--- 21917845
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Sometimes when I go for a walk at night, I think about how almost no woman dares walk alone outside when its dark, and realize, like in a flash, what sort of absolutely turbo-neurotic and threat-minimizing pseudo-lives women lead. I realize what a profound lack of agency and lack of confidence in one's own most basic skills of survival must be the prerequisite for not daring to walk outside when it's dark, and I feel something like pity. Then I reflect, and realize that women, for 20.000 generations, were raped and murdered and used as property because of their physical weakness, and I think about what impact that must have had phylogenetically on their psyches.
+
+And with all those reflections in mind, I am not at all surprised that some woman has made an e-celeb career out of neurotically analysing handwriting. Her mind is molded entirely around threat-detection and avoiding getting murdered and raped, and when you couple such profoundly primitive and all-encompassing aversive drives to a well-developed and extremely complex nervous system, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that this is the end result.
+
+It's still really fucking cringe and I think she should pop some xanax or do some yoga, or whatever coping mechanisms women have for being the weaker sex, as I am sure such strategies will lead her to a happier life than indulging in this specific species of fear-driven retardation.
+--- 21917870
+>>21917777
+Well bros, you can't change the truth when somebody has digits like these
+I guess I'm next. Was nice riding one last time with you, buddies
+--- 21917883
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Move over, astrology!
+--- 21917890
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Her number 8 red flag is literally every woman's handwriting. Every woman has that overly perfect handwriting. Kind of based though because really she's saying avoid all women.
+--- 21918145
+>>21917720 (OP)
+2,3,6,7
+
+>>21917777
+I’d like to see you try. I’ll just stab you in the cunt
+--- 21918163
+Focus the camera properly ffs
+--- 21918175
+This whole thing Is AI generated, they don't want us writing anymore. Next it'll be "10 red flags in cave paintings"
+--- 21918191
+>>21917720 (OP)
+>calls me gay not even a minute into the video
+m'kay
+--- 21918197
+>>21917777
+Seething midwit. Bad handwriting = high IQ
+--- 21918208
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Her "analysis" is so primitive it's not even funny, fucking horoscopes have more depth and merit then this shit, and they have NONE
+I hate women so much it's unreal
+--- 21918220
+>>21917845
+I think it was Dave Chappelle who said once he had a bag filled with cash, like 5K from a drug deal, and he had to transport it. He got on the subway and went through a bad part of New York. He said in that moment he understood what having a pussy must feel like.
+--- 21918223
+>>21918208
+Pic related is so true and people don’t even wanna acknowledge it. Contractions only happen because the woman is orgasming and all that screaming is basically a woman shouting to amplify her emotions during the act. It’s akin to a man slapping himself to make himself angrier than he already is for a fight
+--- 21918274
+>>21917777
+Maybe boomers should have actually taught us how to write by hand then.
+--- 21918294
+>>21917720 (OP)
+This video was psychotic, it's like I entered another dimension.
+--- 21918305
+>>21917720 (OP)
+>youtube
+Gee, who knows.
+--- 21918320
+I;'ve only watched the first 5 minutes, but so far it seems like she's right about everything
+--- 21918328
+>>21918223
+The umbilical cord is actually mans connection to God
+--- 21918331
+>>21918220
+Everybody wants some
+I want some too
+--- 21918333
+I don’t even remember the last time I physically wrote a full sentence
+--- 21918370
+Do you think she would she date me?
+--- 21918389
+>>21917720 (OP)
+>dishonesty in handwriting
+Oh lord, rofel. Is this the weirdo that plagues /tv/? Never in a million years would I have guessed it was a bio-female autist.
+--- 21918393
+>>21917845
+>raped and murdered and used as property
+Hate to quibble, it's an interesting line of thought, but women are and always have been murdered far less frequently than men. It takes 9 months to incubate a baby, and somebody has to care for it. Men are competition, and potentially disruptive. 
+The historical winning play has always been to rape the women and murder (or cause to be murdered) the men.
+--- 21918477
+>>21918370
+fuck, your handwriting is hot
+--- 21918573
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Epigraphy is the patrician's phrenology.
+--- 21918619
+>>21918370
+>cursive is exactly how they teach you
+>even extending the letters to the lines as best you can
+You're a nice guys, so probably not. Women like bad boys, and you're too much of a coward to know when to break the rules. That's my analysis.
+--- 21918630
+>>21918389
+more pussy for me I guess. I want to poke her mind
+
+>>21918573
+books for this subject?
+--- 21918644
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Tbh I know it's probably autism but I find bad handwriting in girls to be a massive turn off. I don't know why.
+
+It just makes them seem more dumb or something. Yet idgaf if a dudes handwriting is bad
+--- 21918714
+>>21917720 (OP)
+what if I don't do any of these, am I a normie
+--- 21918741
+Why is a woman over 25 speaking to someone outside her immediate family? Does she need help? She can't possibly be contributing anything, since she's a woman who isn't even a pretty young thing anymore, so she must need some help.
+--- 21918775
+>>21918741
+I hate bitches as much as the next guy, but jesus h christ dude.
+--- 21918777
+>>21917720 (OP)
+it wont be easy, but i need to learn how to implement all of these into a single writing style
+--- 21918796
+>>21918777
+Maybe we need a penmanship general. It would be more on-topic than most of what is in the catalog.
+--- 21918835
+>>21918370
+you write like an affected moron
+--- 21918837
+>>21917777
+>I'm a massive faggot and everyone has to be like me
+--- 21918861
+she's not wrong at all. it's a type physiognomy.
+--- 21918996
+>>21918208
+This singular image made me lose all hope in humanity. We MUST create thinking machines to replace us.
+--- 21919007
+>>21917720 (OP)
+is this the first time you illiterate uncultured retards hear about graphology?
+--- 21919013
+What's with women and pseudoscience? I'll never trust women.
+--- 21919114
+>>21919007
+>graphology
+Instructionals on the topic tend to use a lot of ''cans'' and ''coulds'' and ''mights''. It sounds as wishy washy as psychanalysis.
+--- 21919127
+>>21917720 (OP)
+she could NOT lose some weight
+--- 21919290
+>>21918223
+>Contractions only happen because the woman is orgasming
+
+It would honestly be so fucking great if that was true. Like, it makes sense, doesn't it, that squeezing shit down your birth canal would be triggered by intense orgasms, so that instead of just being like, oh God this hurts, you get pleasure corresponding to the force needed to push such a huge thing out of your cunt.
+
+This does apparently happens to some chicks, but it really should be what's happening by default.
+--- 21919294
+>>21917720 (OP)
+It’s funny that women always think and talk about “red flags”. Obviously it comes from the fact that they’re weak and vulnerable so they need to be defensive in order not to get raped. But why don’t they want to get raped in the first place? It makes no evolutionary sense for them not to want to get raped. Animals rape each other all the time. The literal only explanation is that women have evolved to prevent betas from breeding at all costs. Their whole life and psychology is ordered towards avoiding betas and making sure they don’t reproduce. Kek.
+--- 21919301
+>>21919007
+no, I remember it being mentioned in the Catwoman movie
+--- 21919313
+>>21919294
+>But why don’t they want to get raped in the first place?
+Have you established that they do not?
+--- 21919322
+>>21919313
+Their behaviour (watching out for “red flags” all the time, the things women teach their daughters about going out alone and telling them to dress modestly, pepper spray marketed to women). It’s obvious they devote a huge portion of their time to preventing betas from reproducing.
+--- 21919397
+>>21919322
+>It’s obvious they devote a huge portion of their time to preventing betas from reproducing.
+That's such a twisted way to see it
+It's not that they want to prevent others from reproducing, its that they don't want to be beaten and raped and then have to raise a rapebaby alone.
+How can you attribute malicious intent to self defense?
+--- 21919424
+>>21919294
+>women always think and talk about “red flags”. Obviously it comes from the fact that they’re weak and vulnerable
+It doesn't come from the fact that they're weak and vulnerable, it comes from the fact talking about men and dating is literally women's only hobby now. Anything else they do is shallow as fuck like playing some Mario phone game or Animal Crossing and you can tell they clearly don't like it as much as a guy likes guy video games. It's all just passing time until more boyz chat and meeting another boy or having drama with the current boy. 
+
+Red flags, what does your boyfriend's bristol stool type say about him?, gay ass astrology and MBTI stuff (all they think about is how it applies to boys, and them, and them and boys), makeup (whoring), clothes (whoring), rewatching the same fucking shows and movies solely for the toxic relationships so they can think about boys, reading books about relationships
+
+The only thing women talk about or do other than boyz is eating and "activities." For example if one woman goes rock climbing, every woman on earth will be rock climbing within the year. That's an activity. They like "trying" food, which means going somewhere with the girls to talk about boyz and eat shit food. Everything is just hovering and killing time until a boy is located to have drama about so you can have more boyz chat. Red flag type videos are just distractions for their small little peanut sized brains.
+--- 21919443
+>>21919397
+The nanny state would take care of them if they raised the baby. Or the rapist would possibly marry them like in the Bible. It’s not about the evolutionary risk of raising the baby alone it’s about the evolutionary risk of having beta-babies who won’t get girls themselves and can’t breed when they grow up. No other animal cares this much about rape.
+--- 21919460
+>>21919424
+Yeah lol my gf is in some girl discord groups and she sends me screenshots sometimes of how the only thing they talk about is men and how horrible men are and relationship drama
+--- 21919463
+I’d pee in her butt
+--- 21919466
+>>21917720 (OP)
+That woman is so much sexo.
+--- 21919473
+>>21919443
+>No other animal cares this much about rape.
+Nor about murder being inflicted on others, but guess what, sentience changes things around.
+--- 21919480
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Imagine being a man and spending your precious time on this virtual queefing. You’re consooming the worst part of a relationship (inane babbling and shit-testing) while getting none of the only thing they have to offer (pussy).
+--- 21919484
+>>21917731
+Is it called uptalking?
+--- 21919496
+Red flag: someone regularly uses handwriting
+--- 21919499
+>>21917813
+Yeah, at least in advanced placement classes. Those essays are all hand written, save for those during covid.
+--- 21919515
+>>21917720 (OP)
+>red flags in handwriting
+doesn't mention left-handedness
+--- 21919613
+>>21918393
+Yeah but guys don't really want anything from each other women always have something that men want and that they can't defend on their own (by design lmao)
+--- 21919633
+>>21917838
+Get your meds.
+--- 21919646
+>>21919515
+I think it's a higher propensity for gay or so I'm told and of course you don't jive with work. Probably should be a writer or shaman or something. Definitely bad at math.
+--- 21919658
+>>21919484
+Big feature of queers too
+--- 21919727
+>small handwriting is a clear sign of anorexia because the person wants to be smaller and smaller
+--- 21919816
+>>21918208
+Christ. This is mental illness right here, folks.
+--- 21919882
+>>21917720 (OP)
+>deep rooted guilt towards one's sexuality
+real...
+--- 21919905
+>>21917777
+I've already reproduced. Suck it, loser.
+--- 21919919
+I noticed that whenever people talk about red flags, they're just projecting their own shortcomings and insecurities onto other people
+--- 21919932
+>>21919013
+Seriously. I thought she was about to start going on about brow slants or eye dilation and how they indicate criminal personalities at some point.
+--- 21919936
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Why must we have these threads?
+--- 21919937
+>>21917720 (OP)
+Graphology is based and soulpilled
+--- 21920174
+>>21919480
+>the worst part of a relationship
+Well, not the worst but, but yeah.
+--- 21920193
+I still write like a child because I always hated handwriting and was good at avoiding it.
+--- 21920195
+>>21917720 (OP)
+This stupid b-word has the camera out of focus 
+so annoying
+--- 21920212
+what are those red marks on her neck bros?
+--- 21920538
+>>21919480
+>precious time
+My time is not that precious though. That being said, I'd never click on OP's link because I'd rather stare at walls than listening to internet women talking.
+--- 21921773
+>>21917813
+I was born in '97, and had to do a short course in cursive in third grade, but nothing else, and I've never used cursive outside of that class.

lit/21917809.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,237 @@
+-----
+--- 21917809
+Explaining Blood Meridian to normies will only make them more stupid because more than half of the journey in the book is reading the thing itself.
+--- 21917817
+>>21917809 (OP)
+is it not already for normies
+--- 21917828
+>>21917809 (OP)
+This guys video on Dante’s inferno is trash.
+--- 21917851
+>>21917828
+he is a protestant and was seething at dante for the whole video, couldn't even appreciate his art
+--- 21917854
+When all the Kanye stuff was going on this guy had a segment in one of his videos where he was literally crying because one of the non-canonical biblical books talked bad about jews.
+--- 21917903
+I don't have anything against Wendigoon but I will say he should stay in his lane. His viewers don't subscribe to his channel for book analysis and those of us that care about literature certainly aren't going to his channel for videos about books. I don't understand this or like it, but whatever.
+--- 21917918
+>>21917828
+I tried watching it but the top comments are so faggy I don’t think I want to
+--- 21917968
+>>21917828
+What did you expect? He isn't a literary critic, he just exposits information because edutainment is the new drug. He's literally popular because he talks about horror and media and isn't a pretentious edgelord or obnoxious teenager, being a pretty normal person his whole 'brand'.
+--- 21918047
+>>21917809 (OP)
+Blood Meridian is already a normie reddit book. Le cowboys with le edgy violence. Nothing of value to ruin.
+--- 21918245
+>>21918047
+filtered
+--- 21918264
+This guy looks like he grooms children. Video essays are slopfeed for retarded wannabes
+--- 21918267
+>>21917828
+wow weird synchronicity. I just watched a dante's inferno video earlier today. Mine was p good though
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnkzLf8fsE8 [Embed]
+
+>inb4 sperg out over w/e autists will sperg about 
+I already read the book over 20 years ago
+--- 21918268
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7RwsZXeLec [Embed]
+Is this a good video?
+--- 21918276
+>>21918047
+So which of Corncob's novels would you consider to not be normie reddit books?
+--- 21918282
+>>21917918
+>comment is just stolen from every Dante thread ever posted on this board.
+--- 21918288
+>>21918282
+I'm aware of that. It's the 10k+ likes that really disgusts me.
+--- 21918354
+>>21917817
+youre doing it right now goddamn
+--- 21918367
+>>21918047
+contrarianism isnt remarkable once youre past your 20s
+--- 21918373
+Anything popular on the chans will eventually seep to the mainstream. every time.
+--- 21918382
+>>21917809 (OP)
+--- 21918385
+>>21918373
+Blood meridian kinda already became mainstream a la Ulysses a long time ago. This is just zoomers discovering their favorite youtubers also know of it.
+>>21917809 (OP)
+His No country for old men video was spammed with requests to read Blood meridian. Now it has happened.
+--- 21918414
+>>21917809 (OP)
+please do not link any christcuck youtubes again op
+--- 21918437
+>>21917809 (OP)
+So was The Judge some kind of convoluted metaphor or some sort of demon? Personally I kind of interpret it as him being some god of war. I’d guess Tyr or Mars.
+--- 21918448
+>>21918437
+I read him as the root of evil. Son occurs wherever he goes and he does not seem to care where he goes. Judge is genuinely one of the most interesting characters from the stories I’ve read.
+--- 21918453
+>>21917828
+no shit. I've never heard of an analysis video that wasn't trash.
+--- 21918457
+>>21917903
+I never watched but he did videos on Dante and Milton. I don’t mind the horror/weird stories he does, though.
+--- 21918468
+>>21917809 (OP)
+This book has the most captivating opening chapter I’ve read so far. It’s the only modern thing I’ve read that feels comparable to the Bible or Iliad in the weight of its language.
+--- 21918478
+>>21918468
+The language will get even heavier chapter 4 onwards. The first time I read it, I had to quit it there because I couldn't keep with the long sentences without losing track of meaning.
+--- 21918506
+>>21917828
+How do you achieve this? If anything I'd expect normalfag midwits to get the point more than the tens of thousands of obsessed and intellectually insecure academics that prop up every reference as a point of history and get lost in the forest of Dante's parochialism when the most relevant parts of the poem can be summed up in five or so key cantos (generally at the start and end of each book), and their images are so universal I'd expect it's the bored-out-of-their-minds retards that pick up on the value of these.
+--- 21918532
+>>21918276
+The crossing, his greatest and most underrated work.
+--- 21918542
+>Wendicoon makes horrible video
+>his 4chan adjacent fans rush in 
+>all of them will be filtered by the prose and lack of punctuation 
+>all of them will then pivot and use this video to parrot crappy secondary opinions 
+>all of them will make BM threads even worse 
+It’s all so tiresome
+--- 21918572
+>>21918437
+He definitely appears to be a supernatural entity of some kind. Whether you interpret him as a Christian demon or a Pagan god is up to you.
+--- 21918584
+>>21918373
+Just because you were exposed to a book through 4chan doesn't mean it wasn't popular before. Just be glad that McCarthy is getting new life. You're like those dumb hipster millennials who think they knew about obscure bands from the 60s first. And you probably are 30+ years old, browsing a shitty website stolen from 2channel.
+--- 21918600
+>>21918584
+Evola and Guenon we’re literally no names until like 2018-2019 in the academic world.
+--- 21918612
+>>21918600
+Not correct, just in case anyone takes this guy seriously
+--- 21918614
+>>21918600
+>electionfag tourist electionfagging
+lmao
+--- 21918637
+>>21917854
+that's why I left Protestantism for something more substantial.
+--- 21918640
+>>21918264
+post nose
+--- 21918652
+>>21918600
+They are still no names.
+--- 21918911
+>>21918288
+You say that like unoriginal posts don't get (You)'d to oblivion as a common occurrence on this site.
+--- 21918923
+>>21918373
+It is the most posted literary novel on r/books after Dostoevsky, Lolita and the Victorian novelists and has been for a while.
+--- 21918933
+>>21917809 (OP)
+Hope Blood Meridian goes mainstream so you fags stop talking about it.
+--- 21919011
+>>21918612
+>>21918652
+>acshually they were known about before then
+>acshually they still are no names
+Well which is it faggots?
+--- 21919069
+>>21919011
+>random strawman that doesn't even refute the claim
+>which is it?
+u r big poopoo
+--- 21919085
+>>21919069
+those are literally what the 2 posts I quoted said. They both disagree with what I said but in contradictory ways which leads me to believe both are horseshit.
+--- 21919245
+>>21919085
+He said "not correct", not that they were famous. Both of them could be implying the same thing.
+--- 21919277
+>>21918382
+based Bedhead enjoyer
+--- 21919346
+>>21919245
+How do you know nigger? Are you them? Suck my cock faggot I bet you'd like that nigger faggot.
+--- 21919353
+>>21919346
+Gay
+--- 21919377
+>>21918600
+look, an actual retard
+--- 21919382
+bloody meridian, producing the worst threads
+--- 21919512
+>>21918600
+You know we had a lot more “serious” far right wingers here 10 years ago? Presumably you were 8 then so you wouldn’t know.
+--- 21919831
+>>21917828
+His Purgatorio and Paradiso videos are noticeably better.
+--- 21919834
+>>21917851
+
+Based Christian cannot even stand to read pagan nonsense.
+--- 21920652
+>>21919277
+cheers my brother.
+--- 21920704
+I liked his No Country For Old Men video and I know he read The Road so hope it's good
+--- 21920726
+OP himself is an insecure psuedo-intellectual you can tell.
+--- 21920758
+Oh no more people are going to get into our super secret niche interest. How can we gate keep this. It’s over. Etc
+--- 21920949
+>>21920758
+The issue with these YouTube opinions is that they ARE the only opinion anyone will have from now on. The only thing this means is that any discussion over Blood Meridian from now on will be completely dead. The people who watch these videos don't "get" into the interest or cultivate any routine--they poison the well with their intellectual laziness coupled with their need to belong, and soon after move on leaving only a hollow crater in their wake. They're a plague.
+It's surprising no one has written about this phenomenon before. I'm sure New York Times reviews served the same purpose and led to the same hair-splitting bullshit back in the day.
+--- 21921910
+>>21918367
+More like 16, id kill myself if I was so miserable I just wrote everything off as dumb and le reddit or whatever the fuck
+--- 21921958
+>it's out
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu6STuj4njw [Embed]
+--- 21921972
+>>21921958
+>>21920949
+--- 21921973
+>>21921958
+>5 fucking hours
+You could legitimately read the entire book AND make an awful thread here in the time it takes you to watch that video
+I will probably watch it either way his Waco video was alright and long-form youtube shit is good consumption material when you've been burned out on vidya / film / etc. for years
+--- 21921990
+>>21918264
+Two days later:
+>Anon from 4chan's /lit/ board arrested for possesssion of child pornography
+--- 21922054
+>>21921958
+>5 hours long
+holy shit just read the book at that point
+--- 21922069
+>>21921958
+A lot of the top comments are from accounts with half-naked woman pfps. I think this dude might be botting
+--- 21922075
+>>21922069
+That's just all of YouTube. They're bots, but unrelated to that guy
+--- 21922081
+>>21917809 (OP)
+read blood passover by toaff instead
+--- 21922143
+>>21918367
+what a faggot ass attitude
+--- 21922158
+>>21917809 (OP)
+People are going to turn on this guy soon. He's getting too popular. The YouTube drama cycle will sink it's teeth into his generic middle American zoomer opinions soon.
+--- 21922182
+>>21922158
+He's openly Christian and has chud guntube friends. He'll get 'canceled' eventually
+--- 21922186
+>>21922182
+That thumbnail looks insufferable.
+--- 21922188
+>>21922158
+Him being a Christian has been the biggest complaint I've seen. I've seen some comments before saying how because of that he must want to ban "the gays" or whatever.
+>>21922069
+That's most comment sections on YouTube though. They're bot accounts to steal your info. Click on their profile and they most likely will have a link to somewhere saying "I g0T @ SuPr1S3 F0r Y0u!!!!"
+--- 21922199
+>>21922188
+Even if the dude was a dyed wool red Leftist, it would still happen. Once you get to the upper echelons of YouTube popularity it just turns into crabs in a bucket.

lit/21917912.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,40 @@
+-----
+--- 21917912
+What are some good stories about soldiers?
+I'm reading Tolstoy atm and he seemed to write about them a lot
+Nothing modern please
+--- 21917929
+>>21917912 (OP)
+>Nothing modern please
+>I hate modernity 
+>I am so cool and different 
+>I am not like my zoomer friend that like modern things
+--- 21917937
+>>21917929
+Yeah I'm sorry, by modern I just meant post WW2 
+Strictly speaking the Napoleonic Wars were modern wars but I was too lazy to specify what I meant
+--- 21917966
+dh lawrence, the prussian officer. dh lawrence, the thorn in the flesh. isaac babel, red cavalry. joseph conrad, the duel.
+--- 21917976
+>>21917937
+if post WW2 doesn't exclude WW2 itself, then evelyn waugh's sword of honour trilogy.
+--- 21918003
+>>21917966
+I'm going to buy this now
+Thanks a lot my friend
+>>21917976
+Yeah that's on my reading list
+I've read Brideshead Revisited and I loved it so I'll bump up sword of honour a bit
+I've been eyeing the Everyman's Library copy of his Complete Short Stories
+You've tried reading them?
+--- 21918154
+>>21918003
+i haven't read the shorts, but brideshead was formative reading my first year of uni.
+--- 21919335
+Bump
+--- 21920204
+Some of Mark Helprin's shorts
+--- 21920243
+Brigadier Gerard is Napoleonic kino about a French James Bond
+--- 21920248
+Stephen Crane

lit/21917939.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,76 @@
+-----
+--- 21917939
+where you at? 
+finish the pentatuch yet?
+--- 21917975
+I'm falling behind. Just finishing up Exodus
+--- 21917979
+I started reading four verses a day last year, starting in Genesis, and I'm currently in Ezekiel.
+--- 21918360
+>And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD
+--- 21918383
+>>21918360
+Moses is on Sinai for like one day before they start worshiping a cow. Why are they so bad at following him
+--- 21918387
+>>21918383
+wasn't it officially 40?
+--- 21918458
+>>21918402
+chronicles doesn't really count
+--- 21918474
+>>21918360
+>>21918383
+What kills me is how unnatural the story is. I’m not just talking about the supernatural elements, but how unrealistic all the reactions are. I’m suppose to believe that pharaoh and the Israelites saw all these alleged miracles and simply brushed them off as insignificant? The average schizophrenic is completely convinced of their delusions by simply hearing false voices.
+--- 21918497
+>>21918474
+you missed the part where egypt had their own magicians
+--- 21918518
+>>21918458
+what do you mean by this? I'm about to get to chronicles, is it gonna be the same stuff that was in Kings or something?
+--- 21918522
+>>21918518
+it's recap + genealogy basically
+--- 21918622
+>>21918497
+No I didn’t. Also, the nature of weak men is to submit to the higher powers. Pharaoh would have been astonished and moved at the power the LORD possessed, but he acts as if nothing out of the ordinary is happening, even in the context of magicians in Egypt. These characters aren’t believable in the slightest
+--- 21918625
+>>21918622
+you missed the part where god hardened his heart
+--- 21918668
+>>21918625
+No I didn’t. He was a stubborn jackass even before god “hardened his heart”
+--- 21918702
+How to avoid passive reading when you aren't a Christian/Jew?
+I've only managed to read Genesis
+--- 21918730
+>>21917939 (OP)
+Got bogged down on the laws and I'm never returning fuck no.
+--- 21918736
+>>21918730
+I don't care how God likes his holy apple juice to be prepared.
+--- 21918783
+>>21918773
+Instead of teaching the Israelites medicine, advanced engineering, proper sanitation, etc, he teaches them how to bbq and make stupid buildings.
+--- 21918791
+>>21918783
+With the frequency they commit evil in the Lord's eyes they are lucky they got taught jack.
+--- 21919792
+>>21918518
+It literally says a lot of times in kings that you've details about X in chronicles
+--- 21919798
+>>21918474
+Most people never go against their habits. I'd say it's spot on even though it's also quite repetetive
+--- 21919804
+>>21917939 (OP)
+Do you guys self-insert as the LORD when reading?
+--- 21920038
+>>21919792
+right, I guess I assumed they meant they would get into new stuff from these same people's lives. maybe i'll skip it and come back to it at the end
+--- 21920812
+>>21918773
+I like mythology and geneañlogy. I do not need to know how god wants his chair to be made. technically I got through that section but it sapped my will and I didn't get through the part about the laws. I did reach the scene of the golden calf so it isn't all bad.
+--- 21921243
+>When the sun had set and it was dark, there appeared a smoking firepot and a flaming torch passing between the animals' pieces.*
+>*: Yeah I have no clue what the fuck is going on here.
+--- 21921606
+You would think a book that's discussed every day here, a book that regularly makes top ten during the annual vote here, would generate more discussion.

lit/21917983.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,194 @@
+-----
+--- 21917983
+You suddenly find pic related in front of you with a stack of 5 books besides him, which books are in the stack?
+My opinion
+>Iliad & Odyssey
+>Creative and Critical Thinking - Edgar Moore
+>The Yoga of Power - Julius Evola
+>The Quick and the Dead - Pavel
+>Of Cosmogonic Eros - Ludwig Klages
+
+But what do YOU see anon?
+Also, feel free to post a different pic with it's own list and ask for the anons opinions.
+--- 21918005
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
+Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
+Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
+Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
+Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
+--- 21918121
+Herman Hesse - The Glass Bead Game
+Goethe - Italian Journey
+Plutarch - Lives
+Pierre Hadot - The Veil of Isis
+Holderlin - Hymns
+--- 21918152
+>>21917983 (OP)
+>Solbrah Cookbook
+>Raw Egg Nationalism 
+>Bronze Age Mindset
+>The Way of Men
+>Printed Carnivorous Aurelius Twitter Feed.
+--- 21918155
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Dao De Jing
+Leaves of Grass
+Principle Upanishads
+Periphyseon
+Bhagavad Gita
+--- 21918396
+>>21918121
+Nice.
+--- 21918410
+12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos -
+Jordan B. Peterson
+
+Beyond Order: 12 More Rules For Life -
+Jordan B. Peterson
+
+Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief -
+Jordan B. Peterson
+
+Political Correctness: The Munk Debates -
+Jordan B. Peterson
+
+Personality and its Transformations: Selected Readings -
+Jordan B. Peterson
+--- 21918412
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Is this supposed to be someone?
+--- 21918417
+>>21918412
+Me in 5 years.
+--- 21918429
+test
+--- 21918454
+>>21918121
+First time seeing this Pierre dude mentioned. But after some searching I just downloaded 4 of his books and put it in my to-read list. Thanks anon.
+--- 21918481
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Mein Kampf
+Book of Disquiet
+Lady Chatterley’s Lover
+Imperium
+The Count of Monte Cristo
+--- 21918653
+>>21918155
+Based Upanichad
+--- 21918684
+Is this like a Roman Emperor Buddha or something?
+--- 21918700
+>>21918152
+You are a faggot
+--- 21918713
+>>21918684
+It's what evolachuds think they'll become one day,
+>>21918700
+Did I hit a nerve?
+--- 21918720
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Could you share your thoughts on the Evola, Pavel and Klages please?
+
+Not familiar with any but right up my street.
+--- 21918946
+>>21918720
+>Pavel
+Great marketer with solid workout programs. His programs won't do miracles, but they work well if done consistently. Just don't get caught up in his marketing.
+>Evola
+Just read him and find it out for yourself, if it isn't for you you'll find out really quickly. Pic related is my favorite for beginners.
+>Klages
+Don't read him until you are deep into the rabbit-hole, it will be useless as you understand fuck all about what he's writing.
+--- 21919004
+>>21917983 (OP)
+That's 6 books, nigga.
+--- 21919019
+>>21918481
+Next time you put the book of disquiet anywhere near meth addicted schizo politics shit I'm raping every single one of your pores, you abhorrent white nigger
+--- 21919115
+>>21919004
+Not if you have one this bad boys.
+--- 21919124
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Why are you posting shitty AI-art?
+--- 21919152
+>>21919115
+it's still two separate very different compositions
+--- 21919182
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Thucydides - History of the Peloponnesian War
+Nietzsche - Thus Spoke Zarathustra
+Stephen Park Turner - Understanding the Tacit
+Michael Winkelman - Shamanism. A biopsychosocial paradigm of consciousness and healing
+Cliff Hooker - Philosophy of Complex Systems
+--- 21919212
+>>21919182
+Can you do a quick rundown on "Understanding the Tacit" and on the Shamanism book? What did you like about them?
+--- 21919262
+>>21919212
+"Understanding the Tacit" is about the phenomena of the tacit knowledge, and how it has been conflated with the explicit one.
+You do not explicitly learn the rules to ride a bike, you just get it.
+And even if you do explain something verbally, it is usually to demarcate most common mistakes not to be stumbled over. As such, acquiring knowledge is not a connection to some kind of "common server" paradigm, but an "error theory", i.e. reconstructions on the run / similar enough emulations, mistaken to be the same thing. Concepts as concepts do not exist.
+
+"Shamanism" is about the Altered State of Consciousness modes, their classification (shamans, meditators and the possessed/mediums differ in terms of brain functioning), historical etymologies (English "witch" and "wise" are cognates of the Indian "vayshya" caste, because shamanistic practices were among Indo-European low caste members, and the dogmatic priesthood/brahmins fought against them), info dump on hypnosis and the placebo effect (how to top-down activate the limbic system via prefrontal cortex through sensory overload), evolutionary biology ('rituals' of chimps), etc.
+--- 21919283
+>>21917983 (OP)
+his own books, probably
+--- 21919315
+>>21919124
+Some people simply lacks soul and AIslop is good enough for them
+--- 21919418
+>>21919019
+Pessoa had a dissociative disorder and described himself as a mystic nationalist. Don’t post cute shit if you don’t know wtf youre talking about retard
+--- 21919462
+>>21919262
+Thank you.
+--- 21919796
+>>21919152
+In one physical book.
+--- 21919809
+>>21917983 (OP)
+Oral tradition only except for curse tablets.
+--- 21919820
+Atomic Practices
+The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck
+Extreme Ownership
+How to Win Friends and Influence People
+Starting Strength
+--- 21919825
+my diary desu, five copies
+--- 21919987
+>>21917983 (OP)
+>The Shadow of the Torturer 
+>The Claw of the Conciliator 
+>The Sword of the Lictor 
+>The Citadel of the Autarch
+>The Urth of the New Sun
+--- 21919996
+La crítica de la razón literaria
+--- 21920169
+Scrooge collection - Don Rosa
+The entire simple language wikipedia, printed version.
+A collection of poems by children.
+Thus Spoke Zarathustra in German
+Bible in original Hebrew and Greek.
+--- 21920469
+Call of the Crocodile
+Call of the Kappa
+Call of the Arcade
+Gothic Violence
+Harassment Architecture
+--- 21921367
+>>21917983 (OP)
+>those hands
+also not literature op is a nigger faggot
+--- 21921695
+>>21917983 (OP)
+KJV Bible
+NKJV Bible
+NIV Bible
+ESV Bible
+NLT Bible
+--- 21922156
+>>21919996
+parce, Maestro, nadie va a leer esa mierda

lit/21917984.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,114 @@
+-----
+--- 21917984
+what was his best work?
+--- 21917989
+pancakes
+--- 21918026
+>>21917984 (OP)
+The meme song that is in every movie soundtrack
+--- 21918031
+>>21917984 (OP)
+tristan und isolde
+--- 21918055
+>>21917984 (OP)
+>kinos your way
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COhLnFwGaT0 [Embed]
+--- 21918057
+>>21918031
+this, other answers can be discarded
+--- 21919223
+>>21917984 (OP)
+A case could be made for any of his mature works.
+
+>>21918031
+>>21918057
+Parsifal goes much further harmonically and is less monolithic in content. There's really only the Tristan chord and everything that evolves out of it. Parsifal has the Grundthema out of which everything grows in the world of the Grail, but also has a completely antithetical world of Klingsor in act 2 and from which Amfortas and Kundry draw their motives.
+--- 21919395
+for me it's "on conducting" or "Beethoven". Wolzogen and von Stein compiled a sort of lexicon with his prose remarks on every possible topic. but it has never been translated though
+> Such tracts as "Beethoven," "Concerning the Art of Conducting," "Concerning Actors and Singers," "State and Religion," silence all contradiction, and, like sacred reliquaries, impose upon all who approach them a calm, earnest, and reverential regard. Others, more particularly the earlier ones, including "Opera and Drama," excite and agitate one; their rhythm is so uneven that, as prose they are bewildering. Their dialectics is constantly interrupted, and their course is more retarded than accelerated by outbursts of feeling; a certain reluctance on the part of the writer seems to hang over them like a pall, just as though the artist were somewhat ashamed of speculative discussions. What the reader who is only imperfectly initiated will probably find most oppressive is the general tone of authoritative dignity which is peculiar to Wagner, and which is very difficult to describe: it always strikes me as though Wagner were continually addressing enemies; for the style of all these tracts more resembles that of the spoken than of the written language, hence they will seem much more intelligible if heard read aloud, in the presence of his enemies, with whom he cannot be on familiar terms, and towards whom he must therefore show some reserve and aloofness. The entrancing passion of his feelings, however, constantly pierces this intentional disguise, and then the stilted and heavy periods, swollen with accessary words, vanish, and his pen dashes off sentences, and even whole pages, which belong to the best in German prose. 
+t. neetzsche
+--- 21919410
+>>21919395
+*C.F. Glasenapp instead of Wolzogen
+fixd
+--- 21919423
+>>21917984 (OP)
+Das Rheingold.
+--- 21919447
+>>21919395
+This is the best description of Wagner's prose I've ever read. But I don't think anyone reads Opera and Drama for the style, so much as for the unending paragraphs of theory which serve as the basis for Wagner's mature art and every later idea he would have. Adorno's critique of Wagner burrows into some of the strangest ideas in Opera and Drama.
+--- 21919451
+What did Wagner mean by this?
+
+>This beauteous naked man is the kernel of all Spartanhood; from genuine delight in the beauty of the most perfect human body – that of the male – arose that spirit of comradeship which pervades and shapes the whole economy of the Spartan State. This love of man to man, in its primitive purity, proclaims itself as the noblest and least selfish utterance of man's sense of beauty, for it teaches man to sink and merge his entire self in the object of his affection. . . . The higher element of that love of man to man consisted even in this: that it excluded the motive of egoistic physicalism. Nevertheless it not only included a purely spiritual bond of friendship, but this spiritual friendship was the blossom and the crown of the physical friendship. The latter sprang directly from delight in the beauty, aye in the material bodily beauty of the beloved comrade.
+Richard, Wagner, The Art-work of the Future (1849)
+--- 21919458
+>>21919451
+>'it excluded the motive of egoistic physicalism.'
+>posts a tranny
+--- 21919535
+>>21917984 (OP)
+Parsifal, by far. It stands head and shoulders above the rest of Music, a true work of the divine. His essays are also good, I like On Poetry and Composition in particular.
+--- 21919827
+I've literally only been able to get into the Flying Dutchman so far. I'm trying my best because there really are brief intervals of beauty in his work but so far I lose interest after the overture is done. Thoughts?
+--- 21919944
+>>21919827
+Start listening to excerpts with vocals and branch off to any scenes that interest you. The best work to start with is Lohengrin conducted by Kempe imo.
+
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJqYzXQIT4Y [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVgPxTQ5Zio [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHvF0ROiJ8o [Embed]
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nurScXyU7Js [Embed]
+--- 21919967
+>>21918031
+My dude
+--- 21920056
+>>21918031
+>>21918057
+>>21919967
+do you care to elaborate? what is so genius about it that makes it better then the ring cycle?
+Tristan and Isolde doesn't even make much sense text wise and the first act is a pain in the ass
+--- 21920074
+>>21920056
+>Tristan and Isolde doesn't even make much sense text wise and the first act is a pain in the ass
+What doesn't make sense????? I think the first act would benefit a lot from good acting. Musically it's just there to introduce the motifs but dramatically it's entertaining.
+--- 21920128
+>>21920074
+i mean there is literally nothing happening besides tristan dying for 2 acts straight. The text doesn't have a message or it fails spectacularly to convey it. it's also much harder to follow than tannhauser, the ring cycle, parsifal...
+
+The first act offers neither good acting nor particularly good music. the second and third act are better in every way, but at the end you still don't know what wagner was trying to say with that piece (maybe he didn't know it himself)
+--- 21920135
+Wagners music transports me to a place where I wasn't catfished and sucked on the penis by a man
+--- 21920154
+>>21918055
+based Wagner throwing in easily the best opera chorus ever made just because he could
+--- 21920205
+>>21917984 (OP)
+Everything that Wagner touched turned sublime.
+--- 21920272
+>>21919944
+Alright. I'm a bit autistic about Opera though so I avoided listening to it casually for the most part and listening to it out of order despite not speaking a lick of German anyway. Reading the translation is nice though.
+--- 21920277
+>>21919827
+Keep on listening to the overtures until you're ready to actually read the texts with the music. There's a reason they're called Music-Dramas and not just Music, they're Shakespearian DRAMAS set to Beethovenian MUSIC. Die Meistersinger is a fine piece of music, but upon reading the text I found myself laughing along with the events of the story and understanding more about the way in which the music worked than I would have simply listening to it.
+--- 21920309
+>>21920128
+You may have been confused reading the poem at the speed of the music, but there's nothing confusing about the story or the main themes of the drama. The only way you could miss the main themes of the drama is if you didn't pay attention to the act two dialogue between Tristan and Isolde or Tristan's act three monologue. At the very least it's a very powerful tragedy. Tristan is only dying in the third act. The first act serves as an introduction to the story and social dynamics, shows the drinking of the love potion, and introduces all of the thematic material the drama will use. There are many 'particularly good' moments:
+
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYFaULLGdnU [Embed]
+--- 21920317
+>>21917984 (OP)
+It’s between Tristan and Parsifal. But if the Ring cycle could be taken as a single work then maybe it.
+--- 21920919
+>>21917984 (OP)
+The Ring and Tristan.
+--- 21921332
+>>21920955
+Nazi, tranny and Marxist?
+--- 21922036
+>>21919535
+/thread
+
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK-7nkJ38wY [Embed]
+
+“Indeed, my exalted friend, I too have often had serious thoughts about my ‘Parzival’. It will be the pinnacle of all my achievements. How sweetly familiar is the feeling that overcomes me when I think that you yourself share directly in the knowledge of this profound secret, that you are its co-creator! It is as though I am inspired to write this work in order to preserve the world’s profoundest secret, the truest Christian faith, nay, to awaken that faith anew. And for the sake of this immense task that it is reserved for me to accomplish, I have felt obliged to use my Nibelung drama to build a Castle of the Grail devoted to art, far removed from the common byways of human activity: for only there, in Monsalvat, can the longed-for deed be revealed to the people, to those who are initiated into its rites, not in those places where God may not show Himself beside the idols of day without His being blasphemed. Thus, my glorious King, do I proclaim the thoughts that I cherish for our ‘Parzival’! – “

lit/21918010.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,25 @@
+-----
+--- 21918010
+Will studying psychology make me a better writer? Will my characters be deeper if I go to a psychology universe rather than if i go to a Literature university?
+--- 21918034
+Yes.
+--- 21918114
+>>21918034
+Could you elaborate
+--- 21918327
+>>21918010 (OP)
+hopefully you don't need a phd to understand people you sociopath
+--- 21918330
+>>21918010 (OP)
+No, the great writers of literary fiction are the best psychologists.
+--- 21919333
+>>21918010 (OP)
+Understanding psychology may make you writer better characters. Studying psychology in university will not help you understand psychology.
+Also as >>21918330 said, you'd be much better off reading good writers. Psychology degrees are a scam, even more so than a literature one.
+--- 21920326
+>>21918114
+Sure.
+Study
+--- 21920979
+You already asked this.
+Psychology is a failed pseudoscience that isn't capable of helping anybody.

lit/21918033.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,22 @@
+-----
+--- 21918033
+What exactly does Heidegger mean by semblance? I started focusing more on this concept in an attempt to understand how Heidegger is "anti-representationalist", and now I think I hardly understand what Heidegger was speaking about at all. Semblance seems to be a form of "mistaken", "underwhelming", "illusory", or "deceptive" showing, like an appearance. But doesn't this kind of concept go against the spirit of Heidegger's work, especially with "truth"? How many layers of machinery can something like "truth as aletheia, uncovering, etc.) have without resorting back to some kind of metaphysics of presence?
+--- 21918947
+>>21918033 (OP)
+Don't overthink it anon, from my experience its one of the more straightforward concepts in his works, and it is tied to truth(unconcealment). You have the truth of the phenomenon of Being concealed so its space, the Da, is filled by semblance to it. I understand its how this can be seen as going back to metaphysics of presence, but I think Heidegger would answer that as the ground for this understand is wholly different and is based on Dasein its phenomenological, because what he posits as the unconcealed truth of Being has is well... not presence
+--- 21918973
+If I'm remembering correctly, his discussion of "semblance" was part of his larger discussion of different ways in which we can take or approach the phenomenon of "appearance" (Scheinen), with the ultimate aim in view, of course, of reaching a phenomenologically perspicuous (in Heidegger's terms: ontological) "view" of or "onto" the phenomenon. Again if I'm recalling correctly, semblance was mostly negated as a possible understanding of appearance, in Heidegger's typical gradual and "narrowing-in" way of getting at the phenomena. In order to say what "appearing" is in the phenomenologically interesting, primordial sense, we say what it is NOT, to clear a space for its uniqueness to come to the fore. 
+
+It's been a long time since I've read it, but I think semblance was described as being parasitic on the real phenomenon of appearing/presencing, or as being simply a wrong way of looking at Scheinen. Similarly, Heidegger talks about subtle differences in the phenomenon of appearance, like how something that is NOT "directly" "apparent," like a disease, can nevertheless "appear" THROUGH "symptoms" or "manifestations" (Erscheinung, which can mean just "appearance" too) as intermediaries. Again, the point being to phenomenologically exhibit the nature of appearance as something beyond other forms of appearing (like "merely appearing to be, but not actually being [something]," and appearing in an immediate way but only a sign of an actual appearance). All of this is way harder to understand in the English and if you don't closely follow Heidegger's analysis of phainesthai. 
+
+>Heidegger is "anti-representationalist"
+This usually has the specific meaning that Heidegger is denying correspondence theories of truth and cognition, in which there is a mind knowing an external object via an intermediary, representative concept. Concepts do not just "re-present" external objects in simple relations. To use analytic philosophy jargon, Heidegger is an extreme coherentist who, frankly, almost never talks about extra-human (extra-Dasein?) reality, although he is usually read as a transcendental philosopher who didn't deny the existence of external reality. Just never talked about it much.
+--- 21918975
+>>21918973
+The critique of the metaphysics of presence is aimed at the way "traditional" metaphysics (very broadly conceived, basically from the Greeks down to today) attempts to understand Being by making it present-at-hand, i.e., by treating it as a being. But the way in which we make beings present-at-hand is a secondary mode of appearing, parasitic on the more phenomenologically/ontologically primordial mode of en-worlded ready-to-handness, i.e., the simple everyday way in which the original phenomena "are" in their everyday, preontological contexts. The goal is to reach phenomenologically/ontologically reflexive awareness of these phenomena without simple forcing them into a present-at-hand scheme of concepts, whether those concepts are matter, or categories of being, etc. We want to learn to SEE the phenomenon of hammering, and through hammering the general phenomena of en-worlded intra-contextual being-with-things and being-with-others (etc.), rather than CONCEPTUALIZING these things merely ontically, i.e., via abstractions severed from the phenomena. The understanding of truth as aletheia or un-covering is aimed at this, similar to Husserl's mandate to go back to "the things themselves" (i.e., the phenomena - not the things-in-themselves in a Kantian sense). 
+
+Sorry if I misunderstood you. Have you been using Dreyfus' lectures?
+--- 21919713
+Damn, I thought I knew something about Heidegger. I guess I don't. Thank you for the in-depth responses. I truly appreciate it. It's just that I was left with a lot more questions than answers.
+--- 21921206
+bump

lit/21918187.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,89 @@
+-----
+--- 21918187
+ITT we make a canon for the GOATs. Only Virgil or Aeschylus or Swinburne can pass. Here's some American nominations:
+>Alexander Theroux
+>Henry Adams
+>Charles Newman
+>Melville
+--- 21918672
+>>21918187 (OP)
+Chiina Melville is from the UK
+--- 21918673
+>>21918672
+heh
+--- 21918689
+I think Pindar would be a better option than Aeschylus among the Greeks if we don’t go for the obvious homer. 
+
+If we’re allowed to count everything you GOTTA put Orpheus there. There’s a lot of kino Orphic material.
+--- 21918690
+>>21918689
+Is Guthrie still a decent book on the Orphic corpus? I was thinking of reading that and some recent compilations, after reading about the Derveni papyrus
+--- 21918707
+>>21918690
+It’s good I would argue even Thomas Taylor’s work on the eleusinian mysteries and Orphic hymns are still worth reading. 
+
+TO PROTOGONUS, OR THE FIRST-BORN
+
+The Fumigation from Myrrh.
+O Mighty first-begotten [Protogonos], hear my pray'r, two-fold, egg-born, and wand'ring thro' the air,
+Bull-roarer, glorying in thy golden wings, from whom the race of Gods and mortals springs.
+Ericapæus [Erikapaios], celebrated pow'r, ineffable, occult, all shining flow'r.
+From eyes obscure thou wip'st the gloom of night, all-spreading splendour, pure and holy light
+Hence Phanes call'd, the glory of the sky, on waving pinions thro' the world you fly. 
+Priapus, dark-ey'd splendour, thee I sing, genial, all-prudent, ever-blessed king,
+With joyful aspect on our rights divine and holy sacrifice propitious shine.
+
+TO PAN
+
+The Fumigation from Various Odors.
+I Call strong Pan, the substance of the whole, etherial, marine, earthly, general soul,
+Immortal fire; for all the world is thine, and all are parts of thee, O pow'r divine.
+Come, blessed Pan, whom rural haunts delight, come, leaping, agile, wand'ring, starry light;
+The Hours and Seasons [Horai], wait thy high command, and round thy throne in graceful order stand.
+Goat-footed, horned, Bacchanalian Pan, fanatic pow'r, from whom the world began, 
+Whose various parts by thee inspir'd, combine in endless dance and melody divine.
+In thee a refuge from our fears we find, those fears peculiar to the human kind.
+Thee shepherds, streams of water, goats rejoice, thou lov'st the chace, and Echo's secret voice: 
+The sportive nymphs, thy ev'ry step attend, and all thy works fulfill their destin'd end.
+O all-producing pow'r, much-senpai'd, divine, the world's great ruler, rich increase is thine.
+All-fertile Pæan, heav'nly splendor pure, in fruits rejoicing, and in caves obscure.
+True serpent-horned Jove [Zeus], whose dreadful rage when rous'd, 'tis hard for mortals to asswage.
+By thee the earth wide-bosom'd deep and long, stands on a basis permanent and strong.
+Th' unwearied waters of the rolling sea, profoundly spreading, yield to thy decree.
+Old Ocean [Okeanos] too reveres thy high command, whose liquid arms begirt the solid land. 
+The spacious air, whose nutrimental fire, and vivid blasts, the heat of life inspire
+The lighter frame of fire, whose sparkling eye shines on the summit of the azure sky,
+Submit alike to thee, whole general sway all parts of matter, various form'd obey.
+All nature's change thro' thy protecting care, and all mankind thy lib'ral bounties share:
+For these where'er dispers'd thro' boundless space, still find thy providence support their race.
+Come, Bacchanalian, blessed power draw near, fanatic Pan, thy humble suppliant hear,
+Propitious to these holy rites attend, and grant my life may meet a prosp'rous end;
+Drive panic Fury too, wherever found, from human kind, to earth's remotest bound.
+--- 21918733
+Hogg by Samuel Delany
+--- 21918766
+>>21918707
+Stfu faggot
+--- 21919674
+>>21918689
+Frater come to church at noon. It's a dominican parish on Lexington - there's coffee after if you want to chat
+--- 21919677
+>>21918187 (OP)
+Wagner.
+--- 21920140
+>>21918707
+Just wanted to say, you're awesome dude. One of my favorite posters on this whole site. Thanks for your contributions over the years.
+--- 21920512
+my boy eddie spenser
+--- 21920974
+>>21919674
+Just recently came home from church, Thanks for the invitation anyways! 
+
+>>21920140
+Thanks brother, it’s it’s fun to sperg ya know? Hope the thread shills some writers I don’t know desu
+--- 21921085
+>>21918187 (OP)
+Li Bai has to be there somewhere.
+--- 21921203
+>>21920974
+Come out some other time. You won't be the only /lit/ user (there's at least three of us)

lit/21918211.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,13 @@
+-----
+--- 21918211
+Has Justine's premise ever been tackled by anyone again?
+Why did no one ever translate this edition, which is basically from what I can tell makes the other two just drafts?
+--- 21918254
+De Sade is the OG of fedora tippers
+--- 21918280
+>>21918211 (OP)
+Don’t know if I could be bothered to read the longest version of Justine unless it includes my fetish (tickling)
+--- 21919561
+Probably just too long. If Wainhouse never got to it it's unlikely someone else will.
+--- 21920775
+bump

lit/21918265.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,477 @@
+-----
+--- 21918265
+is there a Nietzsche of the Muslim world?
+--- 21918272
+muhammad iqbal
+--- 21918278
+>>21918272
+wasn't that faggot some separatist mudslime
+--- 21918312
+Muhammad
+--- 21918358
+>>21918265 (OP)
+Well there's a question as to whether Nietzsche would even be relevant, let alone the futility of searching for some Muslim body double of Nietzsche which is as pointless as asking if there is a French Buddha or a Chinese Augustine. Nietzsche's whole arch takes place in post-revolutionary Western Europe where the industrial revolution and modernism rendered God an irrelevant concept. In the Muslim world, God somehow lived on. Colonialism and imposed secularization effectively drove Islam out of the palaces and universities and into the urban ghettos and peasant villages where it became a kind of bastion of resistance against the authorities. Then along came the Islamic revolution in Iran, where those ghetto dwellers and rural simpletons somehow managed to topple a Shah with one of the largest armies on earth. There never really was a death of God in the Muslim world. Guys like Ataturk and Nasser tried to strangle him, but somehow ordinary people managed to hold them off. Now, you can say that a death of God type thing is only now emerging in places like Iran, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, but the vast majority of people remain pretty conservative and religious. The second issue is that Islam had a very different set of moral values to Christianity. There's no turn the other cheek, no concept of inner faith and forgiveness, no praise of virginity etc. there is a concept of martyrdom but it's distinctively aggressive and militant not the passive kind typified by the crucifixtion of Christ. That's probably what allowed Islam to hang around for so long and become a thorn in NATO's side. 
+
+>>21918272
+Iqbal was really a Hegelian and follower of Goethe and obsessed with Germany. He didn't really have any connection to the Muslim philosophical tradition outside of his traditional education as a Persian poet and interaction with popular books of the occult. His whole philosophy is basically that the Cartesian individual ego exists becuse it does, denying this is life denying, and that strengthening and empowering the ego is the goal of philosophy. Borrowing from Nietzsche, he argues that Islam, unlike Christianity or Hinduism, is uniquely life affirming. So basically, Iqbal is just taking bits and pieces of continetal philosophy, slapping them together and then arguing Islam is some exception because it just is and throw in a bunch of points about how Muslim scientists discovered X or Y before everybody else etc. His whole philosophical approach is peak inferiority complex. 
+
+>>21918278
+Iqbal wasn't a seperatist. If you read him carefully, he became more and more critical of the idea of a nation and nationalism and though he argued for Muslim autonomy within a federal independant India he never was an outright seperatist unless you mean from the British empire.
+--- 21918647
+>>21918358
+Not necessarily, Islam has the same sort of slave morality that Christianity does, it believes in helping the poor, the weak, believes in virtues stuff like not being vain etc. all of that Nietzsche described as being the morality of the "lower classes" and not the warrior class. I was wondering if their are any writers that just completely shit on Islam.
+--- 21918651
+>>21918647
+>helping the poor, the weak, believes in virtues stuff like not being vain
+That's not slave morality. Slave morality is despising the strong. Islam helps the unfortunate whilst still promoting the rule and right of the stronger and blessed by God (dar al-Islam).
+--- 21918657
+>>21918651
+so there are no writers that shit on Islam?
+--- 21918658
+>>21918265 (OP)
+ZARATHUSTRA
+--- 21918659
+>>21918647
+>Slave morality is about helping the weak and poor
+Really nigga?
+--- 21918666
+No because the muslims will kill people who proclaim that allah is dead.
+--- 21918667
+>>21918659
+if you have hatred for the weak you would not be helping the poor and weak, you'd be laughing at them
+--- 21918685
+No, Nietzsche was responding to the termination of religious meaning in western civilization which has no real analogue in the Muslim world. Islam is also too closely connected with Muslims in terms of their civilization, no one exception maybe Iran has some pre-Abrahamic civilization they can draw much inspiration from. Nietzsche is not unpopular with Muslim intellectuals though 
+
+>>21918272
+Iqbal was mostly a champion of Muslim humanism, he wrote a long poem in Persian inspired by Dante except with Rumi as his guide. I think the fact that he was so much against women’s education shows how strong Desi cultural influences are, since the other great Muslim humanist, Qutb, was not against women’s education
+--- 21918692
+>>21918647
+the problem with religious skeptics is that application of the concept of slave morality depends on time and place and whether is congruent with deeply held convictions about how society should work and shouldn't work. to use an example, critical race theory can and should be seen as a form of slave morality that has been codified into law, on the other hand, using an example, mocking a disabled lady from Mississippi, who believes in God herself lacks honor, unlike the kind of honor reserved for a soldier in combat. the point is, its only useful for describing behavior that indicts a people to "raise hell" against another group for ulterior reasons. that cute little lady is not affecting your life and you should be more concerned about those who do affect it, either legally or extralegally.
+--- 21918701
+Nietzsche is the Nietzsche of the Islamic war. He's been praying to the universal will for them to slaughter Germany since the late 1800s, Swedenborg's bound to have told God before then what he wanted for the Second Coming.
+--- 21918717
+>>21918701
+Swedenborg hardly gets mentioned here.
+--- 21918724
+>>21918666
+>>21918685
+>>21918692
+>>21918701
+you niggas are fucking useless holy shit, I just needed an anti-Islamic book that would help me write more blasphemous Black Metal songs
+--- 21918732
+>>21918647
+Nietzsche's central point in the geneaology of morals is that Christian/Western values are formed through resentiment, not that they believe in helping the poor or whatever etc. nor is he necessarily endorsing master morality. Nietzsche's own brief comments on Islam tended to be positive because it does not share much in common with Christian morality. For Christians, faith is absolutely central concept while it was traditionally irrelevant for Muslims. Christians believe there is some inherent virtue in self-inflicted poverty and victim status, while Islam forbids monasticism and wallowing in victimhood (unless your a Shia). This is rather obvious, Islam became a dominant world power and didn't spend centuries as a persecuted minority under the Romans or wondering Jews. 
+
+>>21918657
+There are dozens of such writers that are too numerous to name. The most popular Middle Eastern figures in the West are mostly anti-Islam to varying degrees. Nawal El-Sadawi, Orhan Pamuk, Ataturk, your run of the mill Iranian expat ''activists' etc. all are resolutely anti-Islam to a lesser or worse degree.
+
+>>21918685
+Iqbal's Persian is among the best every produced, there is no doubt about that. I just don't rate him highly as a philosopher. Qutb is a whole other ball game and pretty hit and miss, he went off the rails with Milestones. I guess it doesn't help when your career is cut short by a merciless tyrant for simply writing a book. See Qutb more of a quasi-anarchist with all the flaws of leftists and on a whole I find his humanism disturbing.
+--- 21918753
+>>21918724
+>homie's been stuck screaming Rushdie's theory of satanic pedophilia at metal fans since the 90s
+Idk holmes maybe hit up Guenon fags if they exist in your timeline 
+>>21918717
+I don't believe any of you cunts read Goethe or Kant either
+--- 21918764
+>>21918753
+Black Metal isn't satanic anymore, leftists made that shit cringe by taking it up, we don't want to be associated with anything that is weak, most of us are Pagan
+--- 21918767
+>>21918732
+Iqbal isn’t really a philosopher but a humanist in the Renaissance sense, so is Qutb. As for Milestones going off the rails, it is one of the most highly regarded books in the Muslim world among fundamentalists and liberals alike, really the only ones who have a strong opposition to it are Madkhalis, Jacobins and nu-trads. It’s very well in accord with his exegesis on the Qur’an
+--- 21918833
+René Guénon (PBUH)
+--- 21918841
+>>21918764
+>most of us are Pagan
+Ok hippy
+--- 21918846
+>>21918358
+>Islam
+>no praise of virginity
+congrats I stopped reading
+--- 21918863
+>>21918846
+He isn’t wrong. Islam recommends—by no mean requires—marrying virgins (and by and large women who are virgins will want the same of their husband), but for a widow or divorced woman, there is no religious stigma at all. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم only had one wife who was a virgin when he married her, all the others were either widowed or divorced, sometimes multiple times.
+--- 21918865
+>>21918863
+I should add the disclaimer though that marrying a woman or man who committed fornication is illegal in Shari’ah unless they have completely repented for it, in which case it is legal for them to marry. This is even the case if a woman and a woman commit fornication together and want to marry, their marriage is not legally permissible until they have repented
+--- 21918868
+>the right answer was ignored again 
+Stupid shitposters
+--- 21918870
+>>21918265 (OP)
+Do muslims have their own world? I thought we all shared the same lol
+--- 21918882
+>>21918667
+you've never read nietzsche /pol/fag
+--- 21918969
+>>21918724
+Read The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie. Also start with that next time you absolute mongoloid nigger
+--- 21918978
+Nietzsche is already extremely pro-Muslim (especially because of its treatment of women). In his model, Islam is taking the form of Judeo-Christianity but somewhat soubverting it so that healthier instincts survive. I don't he would have a problem with hardline Islam either. Also Zarathustra read like Sufi wisdom literature.
+--- 21918983
+>>21918685
+>Iqbal was mostly a champion of Muslim humanism
+I have never seen a more retarded take on Iqbal. He was actually a separatist. He wrote letters to Mohammad Ali Jinnah regarding how muslims and their culture will never flourish if they stay with India/hindus. He was also immensely inspired by Goethe and Nietzsche. He wrote in Persian because he found it more expressive than his mother tongue Urdu. He was influenced by Rumi but was also biased against hindus.
+--- 21919067
+>>21918978
+I don’t think Nietzsche extols Islam for women under it anywhere 
+
+>>21918983
+ I’m talking about Renaissance humanism like Petrarch and Erasmus, not Reddit humanism
+--- 21919087
+>>21918651
+>Slave morality is despising the strong.
+No. Slave morality is worshipping the strong.
+--- 21919090
+>>21919087
+That’s incorrect since masters worshipped gods mostly in reverence to their strength. Slaves resented or envied strength, masters admired or revered it (broadly speaking), by Nietzsche’s schema
+--- 21919102
+>>21919090
+Envy and resentment are good. Slaves are taught through Christianity and Islam that these are bad.
+--- 21919105
+>>21918724
+you're the one who's retarded enough to think that there is an equivalent atheist to nietzsche in Islamic countries even though nietzsche's hatred of christianity was very specifically informed by his environment and knowledge of western intellectual history. fucking moron
+--- 21919123
+>>21919087
+You haven't read N.
+--- 21919131
+>>21919102
+Nietzsche posits that Christianity is passive-aggressive here: don’t envy or resent the strong because being weak is actually virtuous and the strong will go to hell
+--- 21919136
+since people in this thread are talking about Islamic books and thinkers I would highly recommend Islam Between East and West, very succinctly explains the general Islamic perspective and its differences from western thought
+--- 21919144
+>>21918753
+>I don't believe...
+am I supposed to care about your beliefs? For all I care you can believe you're a women but that won't make it true.
+--- 21919195
+>>21918272
+This 
+
+All of the faggot who are saying that Iqbal was a humanist are wrong. Iqbal used the symbol of "Shaheen" as a symbol of supreme being. Shaheen is a predator. Muslim humanists in Pakistan have criticized Iqbal for choosing Shaheen rather than a Dove. 
+
+>>21918685
+>no one exception maybe Iran has some pre-Abrahamic civilization they can draw much inspiration from.
+Kek, surely Egypt and Indian subcontinent have zero pre-Abrahamic culture
+>Persian inspired by Dante
+Wrong, he was inspired by Al-Ma'arri who was a harsh critic of Islam. He even dedicated a poem to him.
+>I think the fact that he was so much against women’s education shows how strong Desi cultural influences are
+Sauce?
+--- 21919200
+>>21918265 (OP)
+>>21918724
+Read Omar Khayyam and Al-Ma'arri
+--- 21919211
+>>21919195
+Being a humanist doesn’t mean being an atheist, I’m talking about classical humanism like Cicero, Erasmus and Petrarch. You should read more
+
+>source?
+
+“Stray Reflections”, from 21
+
+>For our purposes religious education is quite sufficient for the Muslim girl. All subjects which have a tendency to dewomanise and to de- Muslimise her must be carefully excluded from her education.
+--- 21919218
+>>21919211
+>Being a humanist doesn’t mean being an atheist,
+I have never implied that. Again the symbol of Shaheen is a symbol of a predator. 
+
+>“Stray Reflections”, from 21
+>>For our purposes religious education is quite sufficient for the Muslim girl. All subjects which have a tendency to dewomanise and to de- Muslimise her must be carefully excluded from her education.
+Holy chud
+--- 21919225
+>>21919211
+>All subjects which have a tendency to dewomanise and to de- Muslimise her must be carefully excluded from her education.
+Based.
+--- 21919231
+>>21919195
+>Wrong, he was inspired by Al-Ma'arri who was a harsh critic of Islam. He even dedicated a poem to him.
+
+Perhaps both. Iqbal called the Javed Nama “an Asian Divine Comedy”, or so it says in Zinda Rood
+
+>>21919218
+I don’t know how the symbol of a predator negates humanism.
+--- 21919235
+>>21919231
+>I don’t know how the symbol of a predator negates humanism.
+It kills and spread terror
+--- 21919241
+>>21919235
+This is a Desi libtard impression of the bird. Desi libtards will also say niqab is meant to be a motif of killing and terror
+--- 21919337
+Doubt it. They would be more inclined to Dostoyevsky's way of thought. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, arent cetered around you. Ego is seen in a negative light.
+--- 21919450
+>>21919241
+>This is a Desi libtard impression of the bird.
+Saying Shaheen is a humanist symbol is a romantic retard impression. Go watch some videos on YouTube of that bird eating its own chicks.
+--- 21919464
+>>21918767
+Milestones has to be seen in context. Qutb wrote it in between bouts of rape and torture in prison. It's a work of deseperation. His epic commentary on the Quran was a true masterpiece bringing modern literary theory to Quranic tafsir for the first time. It's a shame his romantic novels and poetry get virtually no attention either. Nevertheless, Milestones does pose an interesting counterpoint to someone like Carl Schmitt: if God exists and is sovereign then the nation-state is illegitimate. 
+
+>>21918978
+Nietzsche's attitude to Islam was indebetd to German romantic tradition that portrayed Muhammad as a noble warrior, a sort of 6th century Napoleon, and Islam as sexually liberated and violent compared to Christian pacifism and chastity. He had virtually no first hand knowledge of Islam. 
+
+>>21918983
+Iqbal's mother tongue was Punjabi not Urdu, although his family spoke Kashmiri. He wrote in Persian because it still had a reputation as a high literary language. Iqbal was trained by people like Amir Mina'i and influenced by Delhi school poets like Dagh Dehlevi and he was obsessed with Rumi, his German girlfriend introduced him to Goethe and Nietzsche and those are his main influences. As for him being a sepratist, he really wasn't. That's just paki propahanda. Iqbal Singh Sevea deals with this in his book The Political Philosophy of Muhammad Iqbal and I'm not going to replicate his argument here.
+--- 21919524
+>>21919450
+Birds of prey don’t have to signify humanism or anti-humanism anymore than a lion does, they’re used because they symbolize strength, vigor, majesty and keenness of perception, vigilance, wisdom, and they have been employed by poets this way for thousands of years, and Iqbal chose one that was specifically tied to the subcontinent in order to signify that. I can promise you Iqbal wasn’t use it to mean we should eat our babies. 
+
+>>21919464
+His commentary on the Quran was also written in prison, at least the overwhelmingly majority of it, and strongly corroborates Milestones.
+
+Nietzsche’s attitude toward Islam had nothing to do with it being sexually liberated or violent. He liked that it prohibited alcohol and embraced austerity, he particularly admired Andalusian culture, he wasn’t infatuated with the Orientalist conception of Turks
+--- 21919538
+>>21919464
+>Iqbal's mother tongue was Punjabi
+Did he ever mention why he never wrote in his mother tongue? Or any other instance where he mentioned Punjabi?
+--- 21919548
+>>21919524
+>strength, vigor, majesty and keenness of perception, vigilance, wisdom
+And violence, fierceness, ruthlessness, indifference, Will-to-power, might is right so on and so on. It is cowardliness to just look at "positive" side of a predator. If that's he didn't meant these attributes then he was naive or unconscious about his own symbols.
+--- 21919550
+>>21919524
+>He liked that it prohibited alcohol
+How the fuck this cuckold called himself a Dionysusian?
+--- 21919558
+>>21918358
+>There's no turn the other cheek, no concept of inner faith and forgiveness, no praise of virginity etc.
+
+LOL - instantly out yourself as a fraud.
+--- 21919565
+>>21918265 (OP)
+Yeah he can be found under a pile of large rocks
+--- 21919566
+>>21919548
+No, rather you have no familiarity with the precedent of birds of prey as symbolism in literature or poetry. You would probably very confused as to why dogs were almost entirely positively in heraldry, since in poetry and art they symbolize fidelity and vigilance. You’d say, “these poets for these thousands of years akschully meant it is good to scavenge and eat shit and if they didn’t they were naive”. No; they were just following an established poetic and artistic convention of symbolism, as Iqbal was since he actually read literature unlike libtard Desis who would probably also be upset by a lion or a tiger and say. “Th-that’s a terrorist dog whistle!”
+--- 21919569
+>>21919558
+Kek, I have just read that. What a shill
+--- 21919586
+>>21919550
+Pop quiz: what does Nietzsche explain his theory of the core of Dionysian to be in The Birth of Tragedy? Have you read it? Have you read any work by him at all, in fact? Have you in fact read any work from antiquity which talks about Dionysius? Are you even remotely aware of who Zagreus is? are you perhaps making the womanish assumption that Apollinian means disciplined and Dionysian means hedonism? 
+
+Let me clear it up: the Apollinian (how he spells it) means imposing a dream upon reality to beauty it and add meaning, to “escape” from the raw and terrifying nature of the Will (in Schopenhauer’s sense). The Dionysian is to embrace that and look at it for itself instead of to use ideas and things to distract oneself from it. Alcohol is used as an anesthetic to get away from troubles and forget, to escape from the terrifying truth of the sublime.
+--- 21919604
+>>21919558
+For Christians, sex is associated with man's fallen nature. This led to a purity cult of virginity that you can still see today in catholic celibacy and Protestant restrictions on sexuality. Muhammed explicitly forbid monasticism and in some cases forced his followers to marry. Islam also permits concubinage which Muhamamd practiced. Christian paradise is also basically asexual and celibate, because of course sexual desire was aroused in humans by Satan, whereas in the Quran paradise is described as full of sex. Faith was an essentially Protestant concept that didn't exist prior to the reformation, Islam has always been orthorpraxic not a faith based religion. Muslims don't particular value human forgiveness either. If you look at the major Muslim moralists, they're basically Machiavellian in their insistance you crush your enemies. The friend/enemy distinction is pretty strong in the Quran, something that gives liberals fits. 
+
+>>21919524
+All of those are true, but Nietzsche's attitude sits within a long tradition of German romanticism which includes people like Goethe. For them, Muhammad was the prototypical heroic individual who fought for an entirely new world and a new morality that was more open and rational than Christianity. It was also an edgy stance to take, Islam was the enemy of the kind of sheepish Christianity people like Nietzsche loathed.
+--- 21919612
+>>21919586
+The God of wine taught by laughing pessimist drunk God Silenus. Don't care about your pilpul bullshite.
+--- 21919617
+>>21919604
+Nietzsche never talks about Muhammad صلى الله على وسلم and never praises Islamic law as rational, you should stop putting words in his mouth or trying to put him into a box
+--- 21919625
+>>21919612
+The Greeks diluted their wine to avoid getting intoxicated. Silenus is known for saying the best fate for a man is not to be born, and next best after that, to have died: this reflects the function and perception of drunkenness; it is a form of solace for existence itself, essentially a way to numb life.
+--- 21919629
+>>21919566
+>they were just following an established poetic and artistic convention of symbolism
+No Islamic poet from subcontinent has used the symbol of a predator as a benchmark being because they weren't retarded romantics. Therefore humanists are right to criticize him for choosing a predator over a Dove or a Deer. Why I should I care about the western understanding of the subject when their minds and traditions are totally different to east
+--- 21919636
+>>21919625
+>The Greeks diluted their wine to avoid getting intoxicated.
+Silenus was always drunk and laughing. People use to carry him from one place to another so this no intoxication makes zero sense. Why the fuck would Dionysus choose a teacher like him? Nietzsche was projecting his own bullshite on Greeks.
+--- 21919643
+>>21919629
+>n-no, why did he use a lion instead of a baby cow! That’s scary
+
+Every Muslim humanist, from the Middle Ages until today, has had an appreciation for western thought. That’s actually fundamental to Islamic humanism, since, you know, humanism itself is a western concept. The symbol of birds of prey as majestic, strong and wise did not start with romanticism, it goes back to antiquity. That’s why the owl is Athena’s symbol
+--- 21919660
+>>21919636
+Silenus was a laughing pessimist who said the best thing for man is never to be born and, after that, to die. He is Dionysus’ teacher in the earthly form of Dionysus who is esoterically Zagreus, who must be ripped to pieces and die and be reborn years, a motif. Dionysus however had embraced this and doesn’t try to forget it.
+--- 21919701
+>>21919643
+Indian subcontinent has its own distinct Muslim tradition from which Iqbal belonged, Pakistani muslim humanists are right to criticize him. Don't care about western understanding at all.
+--- 21919710
+>>21919660
+Back on pilpul shit. He was literally called a God of Wine. Just accept it that your Muslim dogmatic thinking isn't allowing you accept that people drink wine without the fear of burning in hell for eternity.
+--- 21919726
+>>21919701
+There is no evidence it being used as a motif for evil among Muslims in the Subcontinent so I don't know what tradition you're appealing to here. Desi libtards do not care about Muslim symbolism anyway either, they will say it is terrorism to grow a beard, they rather hate symbols of Islam
+--- 21919729
+>>21919710
+I am talking about Nietzsche, who was a philologist who gained tenure in his 20's--unheard of even then--and was teaching classes to students at university at that age. If you are upset with Nietzsche's scholarship, you are free to actually read a primary source sometime or Nietzsche himself instead of getting your information from video games.
+--- 21919760
+>>21918732
+Monasticism isn’t about wallowing in victimhood. It’s about renouncing the desires of the flesh and attaining ultimate self-mastery by avoidance of meaningless worldly pleasures such as sex, riches, and human glory.
+Christianity doesn’t despise the powerful or the strong. The Church established strong relationships with the Christian monarchs of Europe and even waged Crusades against shitskin invaders.
+Christianity teaches that hierarchy has a real place in society, but that those at the top must submit themselves to God and be under the authority of the Roman Pontiff.
+Nietzsche knew nothing about Christianity because he was a Protestant heretic.
+--- 21919762
+>>21919760
+Nietzsche's conception of Christianity comes from reading the Church Fathers which even Protestants did then
+--- 21919835
+>>21919729
+>I am talking about Nietzsche, who was a philologist who gained tenure in his 20's--unheard of even then--and was teaching classes to students at university at that age.
+And he was criticized for his bullshit by the Greek authority of his time for taking his info from video games 
+
+>>The Birth of Tragedy was angrily criticized by many respected professional scholars of Greek literature. Particularly vehement was philologist Ulrich von Wilamowitz-Moellendorff, who denounced Nietzsche's work as slipshod and misleading.
+--- 21919852
+imran zakhaev
+--- 21919854
+>>21919726
+Evidence is them not being retarded enough to use a left hand occult symbol. He was a westerncuck and should be forgotten asap.
+--- 21919856
+>>21919835
+This guy would be even further from your view and was precisely the school Nietzsche as contesting, that is, the old philologist school which contended that Orphist worship of Zagreus had to do with overcoming death through reason and Silenus was a symbol of the soul's intoxication with ascending from bodily concerns. According to the old schools, the core of Greek religion was the theme of discipline and transcending material concerns, and the stoic expression of their statues was meant to be a reflection of this. Nietzsche was instrumental in challenging this idea, and that this philosophical way of thinking was a later development (and one he conceded to be a degeneration). This was the source of criticism
+--- 21919863
+>>21919854
+There is no evidence that birds of prey are a "left hand occult symbol" to Muslims. Desi libs didn't get upset because of that
+--- 21919901
+>>21919856
+Yes, Nietzsche was retarded and projected his own bullshit. Pagan loved wine. Again you're a Muslim and it is showing.
+--- 21919907
+>>21919863
+>Evidence 
+Common understanding is the evidence but your academic fucked won't understand. And is talking about desi liberals? There are theological disputes.
+--- 21919909
+>>21919901
+Pagans loved wine as the alternative beverage to water (they did not have coffee or tea or juice that could be refrigerated), they didn't like drunkenness. That is why they mixed water with their wine even when drinking it at a celebration.
+--- 21919914
+>>21919909
+>they didn't like drunkenness
+That's why Dionysus choose the most drunk motherfucker he could find on planet earth.
+--- 21919922
+>>21919907
+Probably note since the hawk is the Heraldic animal of Quraysh, which includes Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم. 
+
+>>21919914
+The fact that Silenus drinks a lot didn’t indicate it was to be emulated to the Greeks anymore than Zeus raping men’s wives a lot meant this behavior should be emulated.
+--- 21919931
+>>21919922
+>umm surely greeks and a literal god wine drank wine not because it gave them buzz but because had no other drink :(((( because...they didn't okay
+kek
+--- 21919935
+>>21919922
+>Quraysh
+has its roots in paganism tribe and all of them oppose him
+--- 21919939
+>>21919762
+He should’ve read the scholastics and St. Thomas and he would’ve realised they had a developed political philosophy which views authority and hierarchy as legitimate and natural. Christian ethics does not hate the strong but views strength and political legitimacy as granted by God and therefore the ruler is bound to use his strength to secure the social good and inculcate virtue in his subjects. I suppose the difference between the Christian and the Nietzschean conception of power is that the Christian views power as a means to an end, the end of social harmony and order, whereas the Nietzschean has this onanistic view of power as being valuable for its own sake. 
+For example St. Thomas says that wives should obey their husbands because in man the faculty of reason predominates. This obedience of the woman to the man isn’t for the man’s onanistic pleasure-seeking but for the establishment of right order and harmony in the family, so there are no big fights/disagreements and the like.
+Nietzsche wasn’t a philosopher, he didn’t have a developed political, ethical, or metaphysical worldview. He was a prophet—schizo type, one who intuits certain truths and goes on rants about them, some of which are less insightful than others.
+--- 21919958
+>>21919931
+The Greeks diluted their wine with water to get drunk faster?
+
+>>21919935
+They also converted later and the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said all of the final khulifah would come from Quraysh (a heritage he was proud of)—in fact every madhhab exept Hanafi *requires* someone to be from Quraysh in order to be eligible to be khalifah. Ahlul Bayt are also be extension from Quraysh and their coat of arms was used by Muslim leadership for a long time.
+--- 21919971
+>>21919958
+>The Greeks diluted their wine with water to get drunk faster?
+No, slow intoxication is more pleasurable in comparison to drinking everything all at once in long term and also it lasts long that way. But saying that they didn't drink for the buzz is utterly retarded.
+--- 21919979
+>>21919958
+yeah but what this has to do with Shaheen? How explicitly they used that symbol?
+--- 21919993
+>>21919971
+Wine mixed with water will take a lot to get you drunk especially if you are eating as well
+
+>>21919979
+The Shaheen isa very closely related bird but distinctly subcontinent. The point was that the bird of prey is not a symbol of satan in Islam as you suggest, but rather a positive symbol
+--- 21920010
+>>21918658
+this kek
+--- 21920012
+>>21919993
+>Wine mixed with water will take a lot to get you drunk especially if you are eating as well
+Depends on how much water you add. If you add too much water then it is just water and there would be no reason to add wine in it. And nobody is retarded enough to do that. Wine is for the buzz. Of course you want to reduce the quantity of alcohol in blood otherwise you would become a dysfunctional alcoholic. Many cultures drink beer and how retarded it would be that beer drinkers hate intoxication. Greeks weren't puritanical Wahhabis, accept that or keep coping retard.
+--- 21920024
+>>21919993
+I don't consider left hand path a "satanic" category. But a predator has violence, fierceness, ruthlessness, indifference, Will-to-power, might is right. If you don't accept these attributes then you're being ignorant on purpose.
+--- 21920050
+>>21920024
+Ali رضي الله عنه was called the Lion of Allah. Do you think he should rather have been called the calf? You should probably be aware that Islam approves of hunting and eating animals
+
+>>21920012
+You think people drank small beer for the buzz? It functioned in the Middle Ages as wine did for the Greeks
+--- 21920059
+>>21920050
+>You should probably be aware that Islam approves of hunting and eating animals
+Why it prohibits eating other humans?
+--- 21920064
+>>21920050
+>You think people drank small beer for the buzz?
+Of course retard. Why else they would drink an alcoholic beer and not a nonalcoholic beer?
+--- 21920065
+>>21920059
+Which lions have been known to eat sometimes. Lions will also eat pigs
+--- 21920071
+>>21920064
+Small beer in the Middle Ages contained 1% alcohol. Non-alcoholic beer contains 0.5%-1.6% depending on legal requirements
+--- 21920072
+>>21918265 (OP)
+Islam already had what can be taken as a foundation in warfare (although it was seen as a just, noble and holy war), strength, and a stronger degree of life-affirmation (as aforementioned in this thread, monasticism disparaged in early Islam, and men encouraged to have a wife or even wives plural instead of remaining celibate as per Christ and Paul), so the grounds for a Nietzsche-type reaction against it weren’t so much there.
+
+However, one intriguing possible historical analogue is Hasan i-Sabbah of the Assassins. In fact, Nietzsche even considered the Assassins he headed as his prototypical “free spirits.” 
+
+—The 19th century philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche gives prominent focus to what he terms "the Brotherhood of Assassins", in section 24 of On the Genealogy of Morality. Nietzsche's signature work is to attempt the transvaluation of values, that is, to transcend the inherited Jewish and Christian politics, psychology and ethics of ressentiment and guilt. Nietzsche points to the Assassins as anti-ascetic 'free spirits' who no longer believe in metaphysical truth.
+
+—Importantly, Nietzsche attacks the false spirits who are the host of self-describing "unbelievers" of modern times who claim to reject religious deception as scholars and philosophers and yet retain the traditional refusal to question the value of truth. Nietzsche compares genuine free spirits with the Assassins: "When the Christian crusaders in the Orient came across that invincible order of Assassins – that order of free spirits par excellence whose lowest order received, through some channel or other, a hint about that symbol and spell reserved for the uppermost echelons alone, as their secret: "nothing is true, everything is permitted". Now that was freedom of the spirit, with that, belief in truth itself was renounced."
+
+https://www.liquisearch.com/assassins/friedrich_nietzsche
+
+Another analogy may be to some heterodox and antinomian “dervish-ism” (a random neologism to distinguish it from more piously religious and orthodox Sufism proper), at least some of whom may have been pious frauds using it as a cover for actually drinking the wine in secret of the famous Sufic poetic metaphor or consuming hashish in Persia. As well as Sarmad Kashani, who renounced all religions while still writing mystical poetry, and was executed by Aurangzeb for going no further in proclaiming the shahada than: “There is no god”. When asked why he didn’t finish the sentence with, “but Allah,” he’s said to have answered, “I am still absorbed in the negative part. Why should I tell a lie?”
+--- 21920081
+>>21920071
+>they drink alcohol but they don't at the same time
+kek
+--- 21920091
+>>21920072
+>However, one intriguing possible historical analogue is Hasan i-Sabbah
+Ismaili shias are considered Kuffar by majority of Muslims today
+--- 21920092
+>>21920064
+>Why else they would drink an alcoholic beer and not a nonalcoholic beer?
+NTA but a hygienic attempt to make sure water wasn't poison without making it strong enough to intoxicate you in small amounts.
+--- 21920099
+>>21920081
+Yep, pretty much no non-alcoholic beer is absolutely alcohol free except for Barbican (which is consumed primarily by Muslims). Alcohol a quality for taste rather than intoxication in many things, like cooking, or kombucha
+--- 21920107
+>>21920091
+Look at the thread we’re in, this is precisely about that, not about finding who the most orthodox Muslim is.
+--- 21920110
+>>21920099
+Now it is said and done, Greeks were puritanical Wahhabis.
+--- 21920119
+>>21920110
+>Nietzsche was a Wahhabi because he opposed drunkeness
+
+The Spartans would literally get the Helots drunk and show them to their children as an example to warn them against intoxication
+--- 21920172
+>>21919200
+This.
+--- 21920322
+>>21918724
+You Will Never Be Damaar
+--- 21920951
+>>21919604
+>Muslims don't particular value human forgiveness either
+This is very silly. In interpersonal relationships Islam strictly mandates forgiveness. It’s heavily forbidden to carry grudges. Islam only allows direct aggression against enemies of Islam, otherwise forgiveness is a massive part of the religion
+--- 21920958
+>>21919617
+He does mention him in his notes and in The Antichrist just like everyone in this thread has pointed out, are you stupid?
+--- 21921023
+>>21919604
+What the fuck are you talking about, dating and premarital sex are absolutely forbidden in Islam. If you want to get with a girl you court her for a bit and then ask her father to marry her (as it used to be in the Christian West and should be). 
+It's true that Muslim heaven is very carnal, but that's a big embarrassment to Muslims. It proves that their religion is just posturing.
+If you think sexual liberation is a good thing you're a degenerate.
+--- 21921372
+>>21918685
+>he wrote a long poem in Persian inspired by Dante
+
+Inspired by Ibn Arabi.
+--- 21921475
+>>21921023
+>What the fuck are you talking about, dating and premarital sex are absolutely forbidden in Islam.
+What does that have to do with anything? Christians traditionally viewed all sex as sinful, which is why the church institutionalized celibacy for monks and the clergy. Sexuality is a part of man's fallen nature and is tied to original sin, while virginity is beautific and divine. For Nietzscheans this is a case in point of Christianity's life denying nature. Muslims on the other hand never encouraged celibacy, saw sexuality as inherently fallen or talked up being a virgin all your life as some sort of virtue. It's also not true that Muslims forbade premarital sex. Sleeping with slaves and concubines was permitted. 
+
+>>21921372
+Iqbal's whole philosophy was against Ibn Arabi's central concept of wahdat al-wujud which he denounced and rejected.
+--- 21921511
+>>21918265 (OP)
+hello, ricky

lit/21918384.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,101 @@
+-----
+--- 21918384
+Hello /lit/, what dictionary should I purchase?
+--- 21918490
+>>21918384 (OP)
+--- 21918578
+What do you need a dictionary for?
+--- 21918610
+>>21918578
+To learn words I don't know. I would like a reliable source for the definition of words so that I know what I am saying when I speak them.
+--- 21918628
+>>21918384 (OP)
+I have that same dictionary kek some 1500 pages
+--- 21918997
+>>21918628
+This is becoming absurd. You glown-words need to quit spying my shit. I'm fucking serious here. Quit it.
+--- 21919018
+>>21918997
+>>21918628
+Can one of you post a picture of the pages of your dictionary next to a US coin? I have the third international unabridged and it's a pain in the ass to read anything in it. Would not recommend.
+--- 21919644
+>>21918610
+In that case, what you posted is good. So is the Oxford Dictionary of English. Both are standard modern dictionaries of English, extremely reliable, MW focusing on American and ODE on British usage.
+--- 21919689
+>>21918384 (OP)
+An old one. The older the better.
+--- 21920157
+>>21918384 (OP)
+I have the websters third international edish. It has etymologies and I love it very much.
+--- 21920258
+>>21919689
+This. Anything after 1968 isn't worth your time.
+--- 21920331
+Isn't the internet far superior as a dictionary tool? You get every language, all etymological pathways, syntactic/prosaic examples, visual aids, etc.
+
+I read physical books generally, but a physical dictionary is extremely limited compared to an online search engine.
+--- 21920341
+>>21920331
+you wouldn't get it
+--- 21920714
+I have a pocket Websters with 40k words but it is limited. 40% of the time I end up just searching the word on my iPhone. So iPhone is the best dictionary. Protip to iPhone users: swipe down from the home screen
+--- 21921058
+>>21920331
+For me it's mostly enjoying the analog version when I'm writing. It's cheesy but it does feel like there is more SOVL when going slow and using a physical item. Plus, in a more paranoid sense, it's not tied to the internet and won't get edited sometime in the future to remove wrong-think words. So if there is a loss of power I can still in theory look up a word if I'm writing a short story by candle light.
+--- 21921099
+>>21920331
+>You get every language, all etymological pathways, syntactic/prosaic examples, visual aids, etc.
+What online dictionaries do you use?
+--- 21921141
+>>21921099
+generally dictionary.com and wiktionary.com. sometimes grammarist or other resources. toss it into google and you'll always get an adequate result
+--- 21921162
+>wiktionary.com
+this is edited by trannies and merriamwebster online or what ever it's called lies a lot 
+
+stick to OLD and PHYSICAL dictionaries or at least pre-2020 dictionaries
+--- 21921218
+>>21921162
+I've got a dictionary from the 80s that says something like "see also: negro" lol.
+--- 21921233
+>>21921218
+lol
+--- 21921250
+>>21921162
+The greater point is you'll always find the historical and current meanings of words alongside their histories through simple search engine searches. But I understand why physical dictionaries appeal to folks.
+--- 21921257
+>>21921250
+>you'll always find the historical and current meanings of words
+the pozzed meanings
+> folks
+go back to twitter
+--- 21921267
+>>21921162
+>capitalizing an adjective
+
+Oof.
+--- 21921271
+>>21921257
+You have to be willfully obtuse to think only physical dictionaries have "unpozzed" definitions given the nature of our current conversation. 
+
+It's a good thing for the world that people like you are a dying breed. Nobody sensible is freaking out over a color as a synechdoche being capitalized. If you spent less time seething about this stuff, you might actually get published.
+--- 21921524
+Don't forget to also get a thesaurus and maybe other reference books as well to round it out.
+--- 21921549
+>>21921271
+>It's a good thing for the world that people like you are a dying breed. Nobody sensible is freaking out over a color as a synechdoche being capitalized.
+bait
+--- 21921567
+>>21920258
+Why?
+--- 21921683
+>>21920331
+Where do you think the data on the Internet comes from?
+
+>>21921141
+Dictionary.com is far from the best you can find in English, MW and Lexico (Oxford Dictionary of English, sadly they killed the site recently) are/were better. Wiktionary is uneven, has many mistakes in smaller languages, and has plenty of schizos pushing their pet theories especially when it comes to etymology and language reconstruction.
+I edit Wiktionary too, so I see it first-hand. Most of my contribs are simply replicated from respectable print sources.
+
+>>21921271
+>Nobody sensible is freaking out over a color as a synechdoche being capitalized.
+Try capitalising "White" and see the people capitalising "Black" freaking out.

lit/21918424.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,272 @@
+-----
+--- 21918424
+I've been passively teaching myself French for about five years now. I realize now haven't read any novels in my target language, which is rather embarrassing! I humbly ask: have you read any French works of literature? Did you find them worth reading again? Why?
+
+Thank you.
+--- 21918445
+>>21918424 (OP)
+Jules Verne is pretty good for you to read if you just learned french.
+--- 21918446
+French literature is the best and you should definitely read this one.
+--- 21918450
+Or this french translation of Harry Potter
+--- 21918463
+Have you considered reading the Marquis de Sade's stuff in its original language? Because you should definitely do that.
+--- 21918528
+what kind of thing are you looking for? in general for easy french novels i would recommend Duras' L'Amant, Agota Kristof's Trilogie des jumeaux, Vathek, Galland's Mille et une nuits. but that's just a random list
+--- 21918641
+>>21918424 (OP)
+The Count of Monte Cristo is one of the best novels ever written
+--- 21919516
+>>21918424 (OP)
+I've read some of Gargantua and Pantagruel by Francois Rabelais, but it's very esoteric and hard to understand even in translation. Very erudite and baroque, has a rather anticlerical/anti-Catholic stance if you care about that kind of thing.
+--- 21919559
+>François Rabelais (14??–1553): Gargantua and Pantagruel
+>Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712–1778): Julie, or the New Heloise
+>Denis Diderot (1713–1784): Rameau's Nephew
+>Donatien Alphonse François de Sade (1740–1814): Philosophy in the Bedroom
+>Choderlos de Laclos (1741–1803): Dangerous Liaisons
+>Stendhal (1783–1842): The Charterhouse of Parma
+>Honoré de Balzac (1799–1850): Unknown Masterpiece, Sarrasine, Lost Illusions, Eugénie Grandet, Père Goriot, Colonel Chabert, The Black Sheep, The Lily of the Valley, A Harlot High and Low
+>Alexandre Dumas, père (1802–1870): The Count of Monte Cristo
+>Victor Hugo (1802–1885): Notre-Dame de Paris
+>Gérard de Nerval (1808–1855): Sylvie, Aurélia
+>Jules Barbey d'Aurevilly (1808–1889): Les Diaboliques
+>Gustave Flaubert (1821–1880): Madame Bovary, Sentimental Education, Salammbô, The Temptation of Saint Anthony, Bouvard et Pécuchet
+>Émile Zola (1840–1902): Germinal
+>Comte de Lautréamont (1846–1870): The Songs of Maldoror
+>Léon Bloy (1846–1917): The Woman Who Was Poor
+>Joris-Karl Huysmans (1848–1907): À rebours, Là-Bas
+>Guy de Maupassant (1850–1893): short stories
+>Marcel Proust (1871–1922): In Search of Lost Time
+>Louis-Ferdinand Céline (1894–1961): Journey to the End of the Night
+>André Breton (1896–1966): Nadja
+>Marguerite Yourcenar (1903–1987): Memoirs of Hadrian
+>Boris Vian (1920–1959): Froth on the Daydream
+>Patrick Modiano (1945): In the Café of Lost Youth
+>Michel Houellebecq (1958): Atomised
+>Muriel Barbery (1969): The Elegance of the Hedgehog
+--- 21919570
+>>21918424 (OP)
+>Céline
+Opinion personnelle : contrairement à beaucoup de gens, je trouve son style insupportable, mais le fond très intéressant. Dénonce le complot judéo-maçonnique donc automatiquement intéressant.
+
+>Camus
+Insupportable. Théoriste de l'absurde, plume dépouillée. Autant lire des jugements de la cour de cassation.
+
+>Breton
+Homosexuel sous hallucinogènes, aucun intérêt.
+
+>Pascal
+Hérétique chrétien. Aucun religieux ne prend sa théorie du pari au sérieux.
+
+>Nerval
+Auteur de seconde zone, n'a rien produit d'intéressant
+
+>Cocteau
+De la grosse merde, mais vraiment de la pure chiasse. Rien d'autre à dire, impossible de trouver le moindre intérêt à ce faiseur.
+
+>Did you fucking mean Rousseau?
+Théoriste du contrat social source de la décadence moderne déconstructionniste de l'ordre naturel et légaliste. Responsable de la vie insupportable que nous menons aujourd'hui.
+
+>Perec
+Victime de son époque inintéressant, n'a rien à raconter
+
+>Queneau
+Alors là franchement mec va te faire foutre, la littérature "nouvelle vague" calquée sur le cinéma de la même prétention, tout juste bon à se torcher le cul avec, franchement.
+
+>Chateaubriand
+Grand esprit mais pleutre.
+
+>Vigny
+Poète mielleux comme la plupart des poètes. Les poètes sont soit mielleux soit dépravés. Art secondaire.
+
+>Stendhal
+Balzac avec un style plus relevé, intéressant, raconte les mécanismes sociaux du pouvoir comme Balzac et ne s'attarde pas sur des états d'âme, digne d'intérêt.
+
+>Camus
+Tu l'as cité deux fois fils de pute.
+
+>Colette
+Femme.
+
+>Duras
+Femme.
+
+>Fayette
+Qui?
+
+>Sand
+Femme.
+
+>Bergson
+>Deleuze
+>Derrida
+>Foucault
+>Baudrillard
+>Lyotard
+>Lacan
+>Barthes
+>Blanchot
+>Guattari
+>Levinas holy shit dude
+>Merlau-Ponty
+De la merde, de la merde, de la merde, cent fois de la merde, de la chiasse déconstructionniste insupportable, à la mode dans les facultés de philosophie sous marijuana des années 60-70, à mettre en intégralité à la poubelle.
+
+>Weil
+Si tu parles de Simone Weil, c'est le seul philosophe un minimum digne d'intérêt du 20e siècle. Dommage qu'elle ait rejoint la raclure communiste qu'était de Gaulle
+--- 21919574
+>>21919570
+>Proust
+Juif homosexuel. Inintéressant, racontars de la vie de la bourgeoisie juive.
+
+>Flaubert
+Racontars de la vie bourgeoise d'une vieille fille mal baisée. Inintéressant.
+
+>Molière
+Excellent, thématiquement profond, langue riche et vivante.
+
+>Hugo
+De la merde gauchiste, il suffit d'ajouter une seule phrase au Dernier jour d'un condamné pour se rendre compte de la supercherie : "Il s'appelait Marc Dutroux". Durant tout le roman jamais son crime n'a été évoqué, peut-il avait-il sodomisé et ouvert en deux depuis l'anus des nourrissons de deux mois?
+Tout Hugo est de la manipulation pleurnicharde gauchiste de ce genre, à vomir.
+
+>Rabelais
+BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP
+
+>Montaigne
+Excellent, le plus grand esprit français à mon sens, il est en plein dans le doute ce qui n'est pas forcément pour me plaire, mais son doute voir grand, couvre un large spectre de la pensée, et n'a pas pour autre objectif que de sonder la vérité vraie, à l'inverse du doute des athées dont l'objectif est systématiquement de s'opposer à la vérité révélée par tous les moyens.
+
+>Chrétien de Troyes (learn to fucking write Jesus)
+Légendes amusantes.
+
+>Zola
+De la merde, impossible de trouver le moindre intérêt à la vie des mineurs. Le travail manuel est difficile, woop dee lai.
+
+>Ballsack
+Concurrent du code civil, ses chroniques de la vie bourgeoise sont amères et touchent du doigt l'âpre vérité sur les grandes fortunes et les manipulations politico-finanicères. Dénonce le complot juif. Beaucoup plus intéressant que les autres auteurs qui ne relatent que des états d'âme sentimentalisants, chose dont se rendent largement coupables Flaubert et Proust.
+
+>Baudelaire
+Belle poésie, mais on ne fait pas une grande nation avec ça. Dépravé.
+
+>Rimbaud
+Homosexuel et dépravé. Inférieur à Baudelaire. Surestimé sur tous les plans. Son seul "intérêt" c'est qu'il a compris que la poésie et la littérature étaient des loisirs d'adolescents et qu'arrivé à l'âge adulte il fallait plutôt faire trafiquant d'arme et négrier. Rachète presque son homosexualité
+
+>Verlaine
+Homosexuel et encore moins intéressant que Rimbaud.
+
+>Huysmans
+Littérature sous hallucinogènes, aucun intérêt.
+
+>Genet
+Homosexuel, obsédé par le sujet. Inintéressant.
+
+>Valéry
+Poésie mielleuse sans intérêt.
+
+>Verne
+Excellents récits d'aventure pour la tranche d'âge des six à onze ans.
+
+>Dumas
+Très inégal, employait des nègres donc impossible de savoir ce qui était réellement de lui, Le Comte de Monte-Cristo présente une plume, une structure et une profondeur thématique certaines, tandis que Les Trois Mousquetaires fait office d'oeuvre de jeunesse à côté.
+
+>Maupassant
+Bon nouvelliste, capable de toucher certaines vérités dérangeantes de la vie bourgeoise sordide avec de simples anecdotes.
+
+>Racine
+Plagieur sans vergogne, autant lire les originaux.
+--- 21919584
+>>21919570
+>>21919574
+basé
+--- 21919702
+>>21919570
+>>21919574
+Imagine being so cucked by the English language, you write a pastiche of Nabokov's opinions on various writers but in French and for French writers. Pathetic. You have zero literary taste and this wasn't even remotely amusing.
+--- 21919706
+>>21919584
+Porquoi tu n’aimes pas les écrivains homosexuel?
+--- 21919794
+>>21919702
+>>21919706
+je ne parle pas anglais. tu ne seras jamais une femme.
+--- 21920013
+>>21919570
+le pseud, mesdames et messieurs
+--- 21920016
+>>21919702
+>this wasn't even remotely amusing.
+c'est un peu rigolo quand meme
+--- 21920040
+>>21919574
+vous etes vraiment cringe monsieur
+--- 21920105
+>>21920016
+Sauf quand tu considères qu'il est peut être sérieux le mec
+--- 21920158
+>>21918424 (OP)
+By the time you master French the only people speaking it will be Africans. It's gotten irredeemably bad here.
+
+t. american expat
+--- 21920274
+>>21919570
+Tu écris comme une pédale, comme un anglo-saxon. Et, ma soeur, tu as oublié Wellbeck.
+--- 21920337
+>>21919574
+>Proust
+>Juif
+--- 21920407
+>>21919794
+Mais, il faut necessarie connaitre l’anglais americainne parce que il est la lingua franca.
+--- 21920481
+>>21919570
+Have sex
+--- 21920532
+>>21919570
+>filtré par Nerval
+
+Mon Dieu, embarrassant. Désolé pour toi mais tu connais pas la littérature. C'est pas grave, il y a d'autres arts qui peuvent te parler plus facilement, essaie le cinéma par exemple.
+--- 21920563
+>>21920274
+>>21920337
+>>21920532
+>>21919702
+C'est un copier-coller, ça fait plusieurs fois que ce truc est posté ici.
+--- 21920581
+>>21920563
+et chaque fois ça reste gênant, surtout étant donné que le pauvre crétin ne reconnaît point Raymond Roussel (il pense que c'est Rousseau) !
+--- 21920591
+>>21920158
+France has the highest birth rate in the entire fucking west, keep sounding your alarm dumb expat, maybe you shouldn't have left your country like a coward
+--- 21920598
+>>21920532
+>embarrassant 
+Pourquoi répondre en français si c'est pour fourrer tes phrases de sal anglicisme
+--- 21920619
+>>21920563
+est ''truc'' synonyme de chose?
+--- 21920651
+>>21920274
+>pédale
+The word you're looking for is tapette. You write like an anglo too.
+--- 21920663
+>>21920651
+>tapette
+Low impact word.
+--- 21920664
+>>21918424 (OP)
+read hugo's "the man who laughs"
+--- 21920799
+>>21920664
+>I live...in a society
+--- 21920808
+>>21920799
+it's pretty good. the DC hacks stole the joker from the film adaptation of the novel.
+--- 21922052
+>>21918424 (OP)
+We can’t let this thread die will our beloved French litizens are sleeping. 
+
+So when you guys wake up. What is the penultimate contemporary French novel that explains what France is like today….hard mode no Hollebeq. Merci mon amis.
+--- 21922278
+>>21919570
+>>21919574
+This is pasta

lit/21918438.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,26 @@
+-----
+--- 21918438
+>Dante is il Sommo Poeta (the Supreme Poet)
+>Shakespeare is the Bard
+What about other writers? What would be a good sobriquet for Milton or Chaucer?
+Pic unrel.
+--- 21918462
+>>21918438 (OP)
+Milton - The English Vergil
+--- 21918570
+>>21918462
+Oh come on, he's not that bad.
+--- 21918587
+>>21918570
+>VERGIL BAD BECAUSE... HE JUST IS
+Found the retard
+--- 21919878
+Arnaut Daniel - "The Best Smith" 
+>t. Dante
+--- 21920070
+>>21918438 (OP)
+D'Annunzio - Il Vate
+--- 21920077
+Der Meister..
+--- 21921322
+el principe de los ingenios

lit/21918501.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,133 @@
+-----
+--- 21918501
+Modern children's classic or literary junk food?
+--- 21918504
+My kids only read the Bible and play Dwarf Fortress and Alpha Centauri
+--- 21918510
+Inherently antisemitic and functions to steer kids to the alt right pipeline
+
+Fuck TERFS, some witches have wands
+--- 21918575
+>>21918510
+Is that what you're going to scream at the child's face when they bring you the book?
+--- 21918590
+I probably wouldn’t pick it to read to my children of my own volition because I don’t think it’s particularly exceptional children’s lit but it’s not so bad that I would like refuse to let them read it on their own
+--- 21918595
+>>21918590
+Yeah. I'm not gonna read a 2,500 page series to anybody. Fuck that.
+--- 21918609
+>>21918501 (OP)
+>Harry Potter is a literary classic that will be loved by generations!
+>one generation later 
+>only millennial women in their 30s care about Harry Potter still
+--- 21918616
+>>21918609
+Millennial women will be children for generations
+--- 21918620
+>>21918501 (OP)
+I tried reading harry potter as a kid and it bored me to death. You zoomers have no idea how ostracizing it was to grow up having no knowledge of or interest in that franchise.
+--- 21918629
+Why do zoomers pretend to have lived through this series' heyday when at the same time, a) (they didn't), and b) their generation is the one mainly screaming and pissing and shitting their pants over JKR's (ostensible) transphobia? Is Gen Z just completely irredeemable? I'm confused why they pretend to care so much tho
+--- 21918638
+>>21918620
+Even as a kid when I was more or less fond of the books I never understood why the fuck it specifically was such a huge deal. Like I remember being a child and hearing about people camping outside of like Borders or Barnes and Noble or whatever for the Deathly Hallows and even at my young age I didn’t think the books were special enough to warrant that kind of thing.
+--- 21918650
+>>21918620
+You must’ve just been super autistic, back then these books were the most exciting thing for kids of that generation.
+
+>>21918629
+Because the books were and are still popular as fuck and they were releasing the movies as Zoomers were growing up, and also conzoomers are more able to separate work from author than most retards on here are.
+--- 21918699
+>>21918501 (OP)
+I'd read many books to them including all of the HP ones
+--- 21919474
+>>21918501 (OP)
+Even if it is literary junk food, who cares. Forcing your taste onto your kid doesn't work. Even if you succeed, you create a miserable kid who can't relate to his peers. 
+
+"Hey bro, have you seen the new Minions movie? The peepee poopoo is off the charts, bro!"
+"No... I find peepee poopoo to be in bad taste" 
+"Whatever, loser. Eat shit."
+--- 21919501
+>>21918650
+
+I'm 30, I was 5 when the first book came out, 15 when it was over. The oldest Gen 7 would have been 10 when it was all over. So no, they weren't really part of it. I'm not a fan of the books but it was never a gen 7 thing, unless they were some keen reader I guess.
+--- 21919590
+>>21918595
+You can read one or two of them per year, and gradually transition into letting the kids read them on their own as they get older. That's how my mom did it.
+--- 21919639
+I wouldn't really read long ass book series to my kids.
+If you ever been around kids, especially young kids, they love hearing the same stories over and over and over and over again.
+
+I am not reading H.P. a zillion times.
+
+I am going to read them reasonable length fairy tales and short stories that only take a hour or so to recount at most. 
+By the time they are prime Harry Potter age they should be strong enough readers to read it themselves.
+--- 21919648
+Why the fuck would you read novels to your kids? You should read fairy tales and shoort books with illustrations and such things. Is that why so many people can't read, because dumb parents are reading to them until they're 15?
+--- 21919668
+>>21918501 (OP)
+I didn't read it to my kids seeing as millennials turned out worse for it. Absolutely mindbroken generation. Though I guess now that the craze is over, it's safe to gift it to your little hatchlings. It's key to get your kids interested in concepts, not franchises.
+--- 21919671
+>>21919474
+who's talking about kids reading this. Real, aged adults still read this garbage like they never emotionally or mentally matured. That's the tragedy of the harry potter books. Raise your kids to grow up
+--- 21919725
+>>21919671
+What a load of meaningless crap. 
+>>21919648
+Not true. It improves their vocabularies and eases them into the concept of reading books. Kids with parents who read for them are more likely to read books themselves in the future.
+--- 21919781
+>>21919668
+>millennials turned out worse for it
+Actually it's all Spongebob's fault. 
+And Mario. 
+And Lady Gaga. 
+And Eminem.
+--- 21919786
+>>21918501 (OP)
+--- 21919810
+>>21919725
+Reading harry potter as an adult is tantamount to watching anime or being a furry
+--- 21919823
+>>21919810
+I didn't say anything about reading Harry Potter as an adult, nor did I say anything about anime and furries.
+--- 21919832
+>>21918501 (OP)
+Literal satanic propaganda. Amorth said that this series, among other things like yoga and meditation was bringing more people to the father of lies than anything else.
+--- 21919837
+>>21918504
+STOP! AUTISM IS ALREADY RISING! WE DO NOT NEED ANYMORE AUTISM IN THIS WORLD.
+--- 21919868
+>>21918501 (OP)
+Literary junk food, and even that is being generous. 
+
+>>21919648
+Agreed.
+The characterization of HP as children's literature is rubbish. It's more 'mature' than people belief in its content (violence in Bk 3 onward; Bk4 filled with sexual innuendo etc.) and it's values are completely distorted. For instance, Harry uses a torturing spell (one of the three forbidden spells) on 'the bad guys' in Bk 5, and uses the spell again in the later books more effectively. Can you imagine any other children's book protagonist breaking the law to commit torture? Let alone getting away with it without consequences? 
+
+>>21919725
+Rowling's vocabulary is inconsistent. Her sentence structure and general vocabulary are very simplistic, but, on occasion, she produces a Dickensian length grammatical horror punctuated by Britishisms or relatively obscure words; I wouldn't expect the vast majority of children to know what 'chintz' means. She has no care for words or sentences. She simply wrote.
+
+>>21919832
+The first book and seventh book are guilty of 'Satanic' aspects more than the others in the series. While the appeal of 'witchcraft and wizardry' is a problem, the books themselves are relatively harmless; it is the era that amplifies what is worse.
+Nevertheless, I'd happily chuck all of Rowling's books into the fire. 
+
+Luckily, Harry Potter will be forgotten in less than a hundred years. It will only be a(n embarrassing) marker of our era.
+--- 21919954
+>>21919868
+>The characterization of HP as children's literature is rubbish
+It's common knowledge that it starts as children's literature and later becomes more oriented at young adults
+--- 21919983
+>>21918575
+If a child brings you this book then you've already failed as a parent
+--- 21921258
+>>21918501 (OP)
+Yeah, it would be a good start
+--- 21921287
+>>21919868
+>nooooo you can't just attempt to use crucio on the death eaters after they killed your godfather 
+>nooooooo it's illegal what kind of fantasy protagonist would break the law :*(
+--- 21921303
+My mom was a fan but she never pushed the books on me.
+If I wanted to watch the movies of anything that was based on a book, I had to read the book first, no matter what it was. So I did and it grew on me. I wouldn't call myself a fan, but if my kids ever ask me to read/buy it for them, I won't refuse them.
+--- 21921563
+I'm going to read them one chapter per night until we're done. I don't care if it's low art, I don't care if it supposedly is pozzed, it's the supreme comfy entertainment from my childhood, and I'd like my kids to have that in their lives too.

lit/21918521.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,51 @@
+-----
+--- 21918521
+Do you keep certain books on a hidden shelf to avoid scaring the hoes?
+--- 21918525
+>>21918521 (OP)
+this one, the Christian ones get offended by it
+--- 21918530
+I left a MAGA hat out once while a tinder date was over, she didn't notice.
+--- 21918548
+Women will literally fuck sex offenders if they’re handsome and tall. If you need to modify your personality in anyway to score you’re NGMI
+--- 21918586
+>>21918521 (OP)
+>letting femoids in your home
+>letting femoids know where you live
+--- 21919695
+>>21918521 (OP)
+I put mein kampf on the night stand, under a lamp that serves as a spotlight. I make my tinder dates look right at it when I take them from behind. Then I pull out and say, ''your fuhrer wants to put his little jew in your gas chamber. You better obey, slut''. 
+
+I'm not making this up.
+--- 21919708
+Not really for that reason but I have my "how to draw" books put away in a storage box with other random junk because it's something I have 95% given up on but 5% of me thinks maybe one day I will give it another go so I haven't gotten rid of the books completely.
+--- 21920170
+My wife and I flip a few of these around when we have normie friends over to our apartment but in general I'm pretty sure most of them don't give a fuck about what books you have on your shelf or they wouldn't recognize the based ones anyway
+--- 21920184
+My whole bookshelf is tiktok book girl red flags.
+--- 21920207
+>>21918521 (OP)
+No, I think women should keep their opinions to themselves.
+--- 21920216
+>>21918548
+Men will have sex with good looking women even if they are sex offenders
+--- 21920242
+>>21918521 (OP)
+I never have hoes over so no need.
+--- 21920247
+No, because I get absolutely zero pussy.
+--- 21920722
+>>21918521 (OP)
+No, I don't. Dishonesty is degenerate.
+--- 21920773
+>>21920722
+funko pop shelf chud edition
+--- 21920792
+>>21919695
+How did this get started? What responses have you gotten?
+--- 21920915
+>>21919695
+I like how you didn't specify the gender of your dates.
+--- 21921069
+>>21919695
+you are making it up though

lit/21918725.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,653 @@
+-----
+--- 21918725
+St Alselm unironically wrote this
+and Christians from nowadays unironicallly believe this is a valid argument
+--- 21918762
+>>21918725 (OP)
+That's genius.
+--- 21918771
+>>21918725 (OP)
+>Why, yes, existence is a predicate.
+--- 21918779
+>>21918725 (OP)
+is the Christian in the room with us right now?
+--- 21918781
+>>21918779
+Yes.
+--- 21918787
+>>21918725 (OP)
+Is this a true representation of his argument or is it a strawman?
+--- 21918797
+>>21918725 (OP)
+So god is a big dicked mummy futa who pisses in my anus and exists! Thanks St Alselm.
+--- 21918814
+>>21918797
+That made me think of pic related but I am still cautious that it may be a strawman. As it stands, it is a pretty bad argument.
+--- 21918827
+>>21918814
+It isn't that bad an argument if you aren't instinctively a nominalist materialist. It's pretty hard to account for why human beings exist and have rational thought and concepts. It's a reasonable hypothesis that our concepts are mirrors of a more perfect mind, which is itself part of a reasonable assumption in metaphysics that actual beings acquire the actuality they have by approximating and instantiating ideal archetypes. Within all these assumptions, it's perfectly reasonable to wonder what our naturally implanted concepts tell us "necessarily" about ourselves and the world. Imagine doing phenomenology in a candlelit monastery in 1055 at night and realizing your own in-built concepts seem to have conclusions about ultimate reality latent in them. This is really not that different from Plato's deduction of anamnesis and the immortality of the soul or the Stoic idea of prolepseis or koinai ennoiai. 
+
+The difference between these thinkers and us today is that we are instinctive nominalists and materialists because of modern physics. We tend to think that the "default" worldview that is most "reasonable" in absence of extraordinary reasons to believe anything else is quasi-monistic materialism in which everything else just mechanically arose for no reason and we're all deterministic machines who think we're conscious when we really aren't (so in fact we don't even think we're conscious, since even "being deluded" is just a nominal term for an arrangement of matter in a particular configuration, and so on in an infinite regress).
+--- 21918834
+>>21918769
+I kneel
+--- 21918839
+>>21918725 (OP)
+A whole lot of seething and not a single argument against it.
+--- 21918840
+>>21918827
+Can you point to the source text? I still harbor doubts that the argument is stated fairly.
+--- 21918855
+>>21918787
+In order to understand Anselm, you have to turn back the clock to before Baconian theory, when epistemology was considered grounded in deductive rather than inductive logic. Purely mathematical or formal logical proofs were considered the basis for certainty rather than experiment, indeed a lot of the experimental world was alchemy and so forth and no rigorous by comparison. Think of it like Anselm explaining a particular number: imagine a number which there is no higher number than. This number *must* be real because if it weren’t, it would not be the number which no number is greater than. Anselm just applies this with a more open variable: imagine x [a variable] which there is nothing greater than. 
+
+We don’t really think this way anymore because we know now that pure logic doesn’t always cut it: for example, we now know that space isn’t Euclidean, and so purely logical conceptions of space don’t work. We know a number being necessary doesn’t mean that it is real (see for example imaginary numbers). But within the context of Anselm’s time, his argument is very sound.
+--- 21918858
+>>21918827
+Very nice effortpost.
+
+> we're all deterministic machines who think we're conscious when we really aren't
+My argument against this is that if consciousness is an illusion, then what purpose does the illusion serve? There is no benefit to deceiving an object into believing it has consciousness if it doesn't actually have consciousness. For example, there is no benefit to deceiving a rock into thinking it has consciousness. Therefore the self-questioning of whether or not a being has consciousness is proof that such a being is conscious in reality. I make the same argument regarding free will.
+--- 21918866
+>>21918839
+If you want to accuse others of coping and seething then at least post the true source text. The absolute state. 
+
+Anselm’s Ontological Argument
+(1) God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
+(2) If God is that than which no greater can be conceived then there is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
+Therefore:
+(3) There is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
+(4) If God does not exist then there is something greater than God that can be imagined.
+Therefore:
+(5) God exists.
+--- 21918873
+>>21918866
+Genius.
+--- 21918886
+>>21918866
+>X + existence is better than just X
+Why? What makes existence better than non-existence?
+--- 21918891
+>>21918886
+See the mathematical analogy here
+>>21918855
+--- 21918903
+>>21918858
+I agree completely, I seriously can't even understand how anyone can be an epiphenomenalist / denier of the hard problem of consciousness. I think free will is one of the greatest mysteries if not the greatest mystery in all of philosophy and I always admire and make mental notes of any philosopher who defends it against all rational reasons for rejecting it, like Jacobi. 
+
+>>21918886
+Platonic ontology in which all ordinary existing things in apparent reality lie on a spectrum between the two poles of being and non-being. At the extreme of pure and perfect being are the ideal forms or Pythagorean ideal harmonies or what have you. These are atemporal, not subject to becoming at all, in fact in a sense they are not even ON the spectrum but form the extreme END of the spectrum toward which all entities on the spectrum tend in their temporal existence, i.e. in their various degrees and vicissitudes of becoming. All entities within the world of becoming (the world of appearances and manifestations which we live in) strive toward and try to become the pure beings that are their models. At the apex of pure being is Unity itself, for example - even the atemporal forms themselves must participate in Unity, meaning they are partly multiplicitous and thus not perfect pure Being. In Platonism/Neoplatonism/Neopythagoreanism, not even pure Being IS Unity itself. The primal Unity or One is so far beyond Being that it isn't an "is" at all, and thus it can't be intuited except through whatever your particular Platonist takes mystical union with the One to be. 
+
+On the other end of the spectrum is nothingness, so that, in fact, there IS no "lower" end of the spectrum - pure Unity and the forms anchored in it are at the "higher" end, but the lower end simply tapers off into the bare idea of nothing, with no "actual" nothing, no "subsistent" form or essence of Nothing. Just like manifest, temporal beings on the spectrum between Being and Becoming never quite reach pure Being (except perhaps in mystical states of transcendence), they never quite reach pure Nothingness either. The "receptacle" of Becoming, with its purely shadowy and mirroring role and ultimately unreal status, sort of like Prakrti and Maya in Hindu metaphysics or, is very mysterious and never fully explained.
+--- 21918904
+>>21918903
+(continued) 
+But the overall result of this worldview is that Being is conceived as a hierarchy, and all things can be understood as striving or tending to realize themselves to the greatest degree possible by becoming more and more "like" the forms/ideals that they participate in, i.e., that are their models. Within this ontology, being is a perfection and perfection entails being, while becoming, and the asymptotic approach toward non-being implied by "extreme" becoming, imply im-perfect, dispersed, dissolute, un-formed, etc. 
+
+Perfect literally means complete, which for the ancient mind meant whole, which meant "most like what it is trying to be," which means its natural underlying form, and all forms are themselves formed by the ur-forms of Being and the One, in which they and all things through them participate.
+--- 21918908
+It was specifically an argument designed to catch neo-Platonists, a kind of intellectual nerd clique at the time, who were reluctant to call themselves Christian. The hinge of the argument is that in platonic metaphysics the Ideas are conceptual counterparts to their real world examples and that God, the ultimate being, i.e. the highest point on the metaphysical pyramid, would not be the highest being if he did not contain the attribute of reality, implicit in other more mundane Ideal forms: humans, trees, buildings, etc. Thus, by extending the implicit assumption that Ideal forms are endowed with reality to the form of God he trapped the agnostic Platonists into realizing the implications of their thoughts should lead them to be Christians. It was never meant to be an argument for anyone other than neo-Platonists.
+--- 21918909
+>>21918781
+how can you see him if you don't believe?
+--- 21918912
+>>21918908
+Neoplatonists are not agnostic (obviously, that would suggest a rejection of Platonic epistemology) and it is not an argument for Christianity per se.
+--- 21918913
+>>21918858
+sounds like Daniel Dennet-tier cope
+--- 21918925
+>>21918912
+My point was that it was used in a way to coerce them into a firmly Christian position rather than an ambivalence of First-Movers. I’m more tired than explaining the chain of being and minute theological disputes. It’s accurate enough
+--- 21918928
+>>21918913
+Let me guess, you didn't choose to post this?
+--- 21918956
+>>21918866
+>First premise asserts God exists
+>Final premise is that God exists
+>"HA! Gottem!"
+And this is the height of Christian theology?
+--- 21918958
+>>21918925
+Coerce? Persuade I think you mean, but your premise is wrong anyway
+--- 21918981
+>>21918928
+yeah it was an accident my bad.
+--- 21918986
+>>21918769
+brilliant
+--- 21918988
+>>21918981
+I think he was just joking that you have no free will so you were compelled to post
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlZkGUDu2-4 [Embed]
+
+I thought Dennett was a reductive materialist and pseudo-compatibilist who doesn't really believe in free will or consciousness as having true ontological status, i.e., he sees them as processes or states of other things that do actually have ontological status, like matter.
+--- 21918992
+>>21918956
+>atheist confuses descriptive copula with existential proposition
+Peak atheism.
+--- 21919015
+>>21918992
+If you were asked "What is the greatest thing, that no thing is greater" the answer would be "The totality of the universe", but instead of stating it like that, the use of the word "God" smuggles it in as if it's God that exists, not simply the universe itself. Nice try with the rhetorical deception though.
+--- 21919036
+>>21918992
+He’s right. To create an arbitrary assertion and make a judgment about it is to have no connection to reality at all and it cannot be used to justify itself; anything which follows an arbitrary premise is to be regarded as equally baseless.
+--- 21919058
+God is a logical axiom.
+--- 21919073
+>>21919015
+>The totality of the universe
+Why would that be the greatest? You've implicitly limited it by stating "universe", which is a limitation. The greatest thing that is no greater by definition has to be God, which is defined as the utmost great. The universe is not defined as the utmost great, it is just the totality of material things. Material things are a limiting factor, and therefore the totality of them cannot be the greatest. It's basically that simple, and your response confirms my suspicion that atheists are not quite capable of grasping formal semantics.
+>To create an arbitrary assertion and make a judgment about it is to have no connection to reality at all 
+This is how all scientific hypothesis works. Every statement about reality begins by forming a concept, and understanding it in its own necessity. The first proposition indeed had no connection to reality, which is exactly what I am confirming with my post. That is why it is not question-begging, because the first proposition differs from the last.
+--- 21919088
+>>21919073
+>This is how all scientific hypothesis works. Every statement about reality begins by forming a concept, and understanding it in its own necessity. The first proposition indeed had no connection to reality, which is exactly what I am confirming with my post. That is why it is not question-begging, because the first proposition differs from the last.
+That's not how hypothesis work, retard.
+--- 21919092
+>>21918866
+>If God does not exist then there is something greater than God that can be imagined
+Completely retarded and invalid line of reasoning. If god doesn’t exist, that would simply invalidate the first premise. Christians can’t into philosophy to save their lives
+--- 21919095
+>>21919092
+“God” in the first premise is simply the greatest possible something.
+--- 21919097
+>>21919088
+It is. You come up with an arbitrary assertion with no connection to reality, and then test it to see if it holds. It is obviously different to deductive reason, but not in the sense you've disputed it.
+--- 21919108
+>>21919095
+Yeah, and the first premise is a baseless assertion
+--- 21919113
+>>21919095
+Greatness contains moral assumptions, see the big dicked milf futa.
+--- 21919126
+>>21918956
+The first premise is stipulative. To say "a unicorn is a horse with a horn" isn't to say that unicorns exist. The proof is bad anyway
+--- 21919128
+>>21919108
+Not even him, but there has to be a ''greatest possible something''.
+--- 21919180
+>>21919128
+>nut e'en him butt
+falsetto: there will always be something better.
+--- 21919187
+>>21919180
+You are an ape
+--- 21919190
+>>21918725 (OP)
+Counter: existence is gay, and hence, the most perfect concept must, by logical necessity, not exist.
+The ontological argument of this particular stripe all comes down to a completely unreasonable preference for being over non-being. And I'm not even being an edgy teenaged emo about it, at least no more than the christians themselves, who are to ones to profess inter faeces et urinam nascimur. 
+The geniuses here realized much the same thing a decade ago when they coined the term "3d pig disgusting".
+--- 21919191
+>>21919187
+You are an ape holding a stick who believes the stick is the greatest possible something, and who cannot comprehend another ape with plasma rifle triumphing over his stick.
+--- 21919198
+>>21919180
+>there will always be something better
+Why? Because you missed it on the first pass? That sounds like operator error to me. It can still be the original source of power, to which you falsely failed to attribute a quality or degree.
+--- 21919206
+>>21919191
+>and who cannot comprehend another ape with plasma rifle
+Does the argument rely on the first ape's comprehension of the plasma rifle in order for the plasma rifle to generate its awesome destruction?
+--- 21919207
+>>21919198
+I mean that a thing can always be improved upon and that in a short period of a time a thing invented to do XYZ will require some atunement to adapt to new conditions which are produced by natural changes around it; planetary drift, etc.
+
+The idea of "total eprfection forever" is a human construct of arrogance, it is immediately outdated tomorrow. True perfection, perhaps, is unflinching adaptability and the industriousness of mind to be able to do this ceaselessly; to follow truth without bias, to not hold the 'opinion of a person' 'about' truth as if it that opinion were more important (i.e. to construct a dogma) than evidenced based reality.
+--- 21919210
+>>21919206
+sort of. the idea is that the ape discovers a stick and believes he is at the apex of technology; all technology, for example, is out-dated or is subject to improvement or degradation. So there is no 'perfect thing' apart from, as I said next: >>21919207 perhaps our own disposition to not hold back from constantly improving upon a thing.
+--- 21919250
+>>21919191
+>*Ape noises*
+Noetic vaccum
+--- 21919251
+>>21919207
+This sounds like Bronstein's Refutation of Identity. If you build a better mousetrap then that mousetrap is the new, better mousetrap. If someone fails to notice that you made a better mousetrap then that does not degrade the quality of the mousetrap. That is only a manifestation of their ignorance. 
+>>21919210
+>So there is no 'perfect thing'
+So, it can jest be the most perfect instead of perfect. I do not see the problem.
+--- 21919268
+>>21919251
+*just
+sleepy time retardation kicking in
+--- 21919320
+>>21919180
+Ok, then God is the source of all things that are better.
+--- 21919359
+>>21918855
+Imaginary numbers are real. They were dubbed imaginary because, just like the discovery of negative numbers and irrational numbers and the number 0, the people who initially encountered them resisted them. There’s a good series on YouTube called “imaginary numbers are real”.
+Deductive methods have not been made obsolete. Even empirical science is deductive if you take the model of Popper.
+Anselm’s argument was not “typical for its time”. Saint Thomas of Aquinas rejected it and so did his other contemporaries.
+Anselm’s argument does prove (assuming that “greatness” is not a subjective criterion) the existence of the greatest thing. According to Anselm, existence is part of greatness, so that which is the greatest must exist. However where he goes wrong is assuming that God is identical to the greatest thing. It could be that God doesn’t exist and some other really existing thing is actually the greatest, a candidate (in his time) being William the Conquerer perhaps. 
+Even still, there’s a lot to be learned from the analysis of the ontological argument.
+Please stop talking about things you know 0 about.
+--- 21919991
+>>21919190
+>The geniuses here realized much the same thing a decade ago when they coined the term "3d pig disgusting".
+A possible objection that could be raised to this is that the term 3DPD refers only to material stuff (living humans in the original sense of the term), whereas 2D perfection is supposed to be ideal. Going by the Platonist separation of matter from ideas, it could be asserted that ideas "exist" separately from agglomerations of matter that poorly resemble the perfect ideas that they correspond to. Therefore, God, being the prime source of ideas, must Himself be an idea greater than everything else, including matter.
+
+So by cleaving matter and ideas apart, we could argue that God exists ideally, but does not exist materially.
+
+I personally don't hold these views, so I am merely pointing it out because I know that there could be people here who might do it.
+--- 21919998
+>>21919359
+This entire post is wrong
+--- 21920338
+>>21918725 (OP)
+>think of the perfect island
+>it doesn't exist?
+>then it's not perfect
+>but you can still imagine the perfect island
+>therefore the perfect island exists
+--- 21920344
+My perfect reality is one where im god
+--- 21920379
+>>21918858
+Your presuming it has to have a purpose to exist in the first place. You know we could of just developed it by accident? Maybe we developed it and it had a practical use for survival? Maybe for self reflection to learn and grow? Not only you're saying that rocks and people are the same kind of objects, just cause a rock has no purpose to have the illusion of consciousness, doesn't mean other objects may not have the need for it to help propigate the species.
+--- 21920395
+>>21920379
+>could of 
+Stopped reading right there.
+--- 21920402
+>>21920395
+Based
+--- 21920467
+>>21920395
+Aw well if you're that arrogant go right ahead. I'm just honest enough to know I can't know for certain how the universe actually works. There's just not very good arguments in this thread. Burden of proof is on them; and their proof is weak.
+--- 21920780
+>>21920338
+It does exist as potential. A better island than the perfect ideal doesn't exist as potential.
+A unicorn exists in the sense that the rules allow it, a horse with a horn potentially exists despite not actually being instantiated physically. God is not claimed to be physically instantiated as a whole, physics can't encompass God.
+--- 21921006
+>>21919073
+The phrase "the totality of everything that exists" is only limited by existence. Unless you accept that God resides within the category of "not existing" in which case we agree.
+--- 21921015
+>>21919128
+The "greatest possible something" would be the sum of all things that exist. It's just a tautology, and is used as a smoke screen to smuggle in a massive amount of assumptions, judgements, and wishes.
+--- 21921090
+>>21921015
+>is used as a smoke screen
+This type of reasoning is used as a smoke screen.
+>would be the sum of all things that exist
+It would be that and more. The thing exists, whatever satisfies the conditions is God and something does satisfy them. Usually people like you have a problem with the part about God having a mind but you're too dumb to isolate the problem so you carpet bomb any talk about God with vague "smoke screens". The arguments about if the phenomena is conscious or not are separate from the arguments about the existence of the phenomena.
+--- 21921132
+>>21921090
+>God is more than what exists
+You are just asserting things that you want to be true. There is nothing that exists outside of all the things that exist. It's categorically true. You literally cannot comprehend how categories work. The sad part is you probably actually think that you're smart.
+--- 21921157
+>>21921090
+>The thing exists, whatever satisfies the conditions is God
+But then couldn't God just be literally anything that's "greater" than anything else, like the biggest star in the universe (UY Scuti)?
+It wouldn't mean that God is good or caring, or that God is all-powerful. It would just mean that God is big and heavy.
+--- 21921181
+>>21921132
+>There is nothing that exists outside of all the things that exist.
+Depends on what you mean and if you really mean all things then you're not exploring what that means. You tend to say potential like unicorns don't exist but they're part of the sum of all things. So is subjective experience itself, another thing that can't be empirically shown to exist.
+>>21921157
+The biggest star doesn't contain everything else, it doesn't contain love. The greatest thing does contain love and anger or those things wouldn't be.
+--- 21921213
+>>21921181
+The greatest star in the universe contains the material for every single potential component of a being that could feel and give love and hate. Such a star could be a source of immense energy for an entire galaxy, giving rise to civilizations on many planets, each one with highly advanced degrees of intellectual and technological refinement.
+
+If a thing with the material potential for any other physical substance, that is greater than anything else in the universe can be called "God", then that must be a star.
+--- 21921215
+>>21921181
+If you count things that only exist in your mind as existing, then yes, god exists, congratulations. Also something greater than god, god++, which I just conceived.
+--- 21921219
+>>21921181
+Again, you aren't comprehending how categories work. Our knowledge of whether a potential exists or doesn't exist was the starting point of the whole exercise. 
+
+There is a category of all things that exist, that is true regardless of our knowledge about it. In order to support a God, you continue to fight against it, you are behaving in the technical meaning of the word: irrational. You want God to exist, so even if that means being partially outside of the category of existing, you'll accept it. This is irrational.
+
+The syllogism stated by St. Alselm amounts to the tautology "The greatest thing that exists is the sum all things that exist", which fails advances the case for "God" one iota.
+--- 21921255
+It's not easy to pinpoint exactly what is wrong with Anselm's argument, but there is some agreement that the error lies in the way he thinks about existence. To think of something is to think of it as existing, existence is not an extra you add at the top of the thing.
+--- 21921268
+>>21921213
+Our models of stars are material. The material can't have defined the logic of how the material interacts for example or the fact that the material can in certain circumstances feel love. It does mirror the higher principles like logic and love but doesn't contain it or it wouldn't be valid outside the star.
+This type of thinking is confusing the map for the territory, words for meaning and physical models for reality.
+>god++, which I just conceived.
+No you didn't. The Alselm guy did before you at least.
+>If you count things that only exist in your mind as existing
+Point is potential like unicorns have a kind of existence incoherence and structurally unsound ideas do not. When it comes to the potential for all things that phenomena exists or those things wouldn't exist, including the unicorn.
+>There is a category of all things that exist
+But you don't clarify what you mean. Does subjective experience exists?
+>partially outside of the category of existing
+Like your entire experience, your entire life? You're confusing categories with reality, the map with the territory, words with meaning. "Existing" does not mean having a physical form but that's always the demand to prove the "existence" of God.
+I didn't start with a conclusion. The phenomena all these people in history called "God" clearly exists, pretending otherwise is avoiding understanding their perspectives. What can be argued about are all the attributes given to this "God".
+>amounts to the tautology
+Perhaps but you still refuse to try to understand the perspective being communicated. You just automatically start trying to undermine it because you think you already know the conclusion is wrong and the goal is not to think but to promote your holy dogma.
+--- 21921272
+>>21921215
+Not that guy, but you could also say that there is something greater than god++, which is God^n, as n approaches infinity, and that god is the first tier deity, god++ is a second tier deity, but God^n is the nth-tier deity with a higher powerlvl than any other deity, which means God^n is the one that is the "truest" god of them all, thus making God^n the best fitting candidate for St. Anselm's "God".
+
+If necessary, we could prove God^n's superiority by mathematical induction.
+Let k=n.
+If k=1, then God^k = God^1.
+God^1 > God^0.
+Now suppose it holds true for k+1.
+God^(k+1)-God^k>0
+Therefore, for every n, n being a real number on the set from 0 to infinity, God^n>God^(n-a),
+"a" being a real number on the open set from 0 to infinity that is lesser than "n".
+
+
+It's a terrible argument, but it helps to demonstrate that people will merely disregard your argument by claiming that you're not actually using the proper definition for terms you're employing.
+--- 21921296
+>>21921268
+>promote your holy dogma.
+You mean that if something is outside of "all the things that exist" it means it doesn't exist? To adhere to the most basic rules of reason? If you want to accept that to believe in God, you must become irrational and accept that things that are outside of existence somehow exist, then you have summed up the Theist position well, but you should accept that this is what you are doing.
+--- 21921306
+>>21921268
+Ideas exist as ideas. You want to believe that if an idea exists "God" then it actually totally really exists for realzies in reality. It's infantile. If I speak a work "elephant", does it conjure an elephant into existence? No, it conjures the sound of a word into existence. If you imagine God, does it conjure God into existence? No, it conjures the idea of God into existence. And you accuse me of confusing the map for the territory!
+--- 21921319
+>>21921296
+>You mean
+No you consistently avoid trying to understand what I mean and pretend I meant something else like you do with this poor monk desperately trying to piece together some conception of an inherently inconceivable reality. All because you have some dogma you consider holy and unassailable about everything being material and mindless, despite in every moment experiencing first hand a mind that can never be accounted for using any of your models.
+What I do mean is what I said, you never clarify the category, you just pretend we both have access to an objective definition and then violate the definition I would have thought applied. What exists? Do only empirically measurable physical things exist? What about logic itself? Math? You don't use the category like I expect so clearly our ideas of what exists differ. Are you really unable to conceive of this?
+--- 21921328
+>>21921319
+Where have I ever contended that everything is mindless? Again, you accuse me of failing to try to understand and yet assign such a ludicrous point to what I have said that it beggars belief. Human beings have minds, if you want to assert there are minds elsewhere, the burden of proving that is on you, you don't get to just assume it.
+
+I just clarified this in another post, ideas exist as ideas. Physical objects exist as physical objects. Each thing that exists, exists in the way that it exists. If a thing does not exist in any way, then it does not exist. Sorry, I didn't realize you needed this to be spelled out for you.
+--- 21921331
+>>21921268
+>>god++, which I just conceived.
+>No you didn't. The Alselm guy did before you at least.
+
+Who thought of it first is irrelevant. A 5yo who doesn't know any logic could conceive some god^infinity who is a piece of lasagna and truly believe in it, so what now?
+
+>>If you count things that only exist in your mind as existing
+>Point is potential like unicorns have a kind of existence incoherence and structurally unsound ideas do not. When it comes to the potential for all things that phenomena exists or those things wouldn't exist, including the unicorn.
+
+So there are things which CAN be conceived which do not exist? :^)
+--- 21921335
+>>21921306
+>You want to believe that if an idea exists "God" then it actually totally really exists
+No.
+>you mean
+No.
+Read the posts instead of making up these retarded fantasies that go nowhere. Build on what's actually said instead of your fantasies.
+If you're unable to interpret anything said by me or anyone in history as anything but nonsense then you have no imagination. The problem isn't with the fucking monk that spent his life thinking about this shit you dismiss without even spending a second actually thinking about.
+I already went into excruciating detail about the unicorn / imaginary elephant. God is not an arbitrary but structurally sound idea like a unicorn. God is the concept of that which contains everything including horses and unicorns and logic and love and physical elephants and imaginary elephants. If you can imagine something greater that's what the concept is meant to reference.
+--- 21921337
+>>21921331
+Are you mentally handicapped? You actually can't tell the difference between something existing as an idea and that thing existing physically in reality?
+--- 21921343
+>>21921335
+>God is the concept of that which contains everything
+This is literally what I said in the first post I made in this thread. The word "universe" or "the category of all things that exist" are identical with your definition of God, yet you insist on using a word piled high with baggage because you have a desire for that baggage to also be true and exist. It's disingenuous, it's dishonest, but the worst part is, it's dishonest to yourself. In short, you are deluded.
+--- 21921370
+>>21921337
+Yes I can? In fact I'm making the exact opposite point in fact. I can spell it out:
+whether something can be imagined or has been imagined or is or is not believed to be true has no bearing on whether that thing actually exists, because different people can conceive contradictory things.
+
+Obviously imagined things exist to some degree, like love or laws or artistic movements do, but that's not what christians mean when they say that god exists. If that was the case you wouldn't need Anselm’s argument, you could just say he exists because you say so.
+--- 21921374
+>>21921319
+Not that guy either, but I believe that mathematics does not exist. Rather, it consists of a few axioms that rule over imaginary objects, and all of the properties of numbers and other mathematical objects are merely what happen to be the allowable result of the acceptance of the fundamental axiom of mathematics. Nothing is countable except by the admission of numbers, and nothing is quantifiable except by accepting that matterstuff agglomerations that are seen as having common properties are part of the same set.
+Likewise, thought do not exist independently of their thinker. There are no feelings independently of a person who feels them, and persons do not exist independently of their body.
+
+This is my purely dogmatic claim of how things exist in the universe, and does not correspond to either the beliefs of ancient philosophers or to those of contemporary scientists. Although it is what I believe, I cannot claim it is an absolute truth, for truth is only that which is enunciated by humans without intrasubjective admission to the contrary.
+--- 21921378
+>>21921328
+>Where have I ever contended that everything is mindless?
+Your braindead materialistic model is implied in everything you say. When trying to pretend you think otherwise you start listing reddit memes like clockwork.
+>burden of proof
+Is relevant to testing models not to what reality is actually like. There is no proof you have a subjective experience. Your model of a thing is not the thing. The fucking map is not the fucking territory.
+>Who thought of it first is irrelevant
+It's relevant to understanding what's actually being said. Presenting the idea you think you're criticizing as if it's your own just reveals you're illiterate and didn't understand anything in the first place.
+>So there are things which CAN be conceived which do not exist?
+Obviously. Again, not having understood anything said so far just reveals you're illiterate.
+>>21921343
+>The word "universe" or "the category of all things that exist" are identical with your definition of God
+Not when you use the word. The "universe" is loving and conscious and inconceivable, beyond logic. Our sole purpose is to venerate existence.
+You insist on undermining the word historically used to reference something that clearly fucking exists. You undermine all understanding of history philosophy and religion for petty political purposes.
+The highest form of worship the human race can do is advancing our understanding of God. This is what the early scientists that actually advanced knowledge believed and stated over and over in their own hand.
+When children today read those words they think the greatest minds were retards, all because you desperately need to undermine basic language for politics.
+--- 21921389
+If god is real, why do people have to come up with all these bizarre logical proofs of his supposed existence? I don't have to prove that there is a BMW three series on my driveway with a bunch of equations, it's just there. I don't have to start with the a priori assumption that the Beemer exists and work backwards from there with a bunch of stupid pil-pul
+--- 21921390
+>The syllogism stated by St. Alselm amounts to the tautology "The greatest thing that exists is the sum all things that exist", which fails advances the case for "God" one iota.
+
+This is just begging the question of nominalism. If you can't even take account of the Theaetetus and Sophist at least allow Peirce to disabuse you of it.
+--- 21921399
+The ontological argument is extremely subtle which is why it filters so many people. It's really all about the link between essence and existence. Is there such a thing whose essence is to exist? If not, what is the root of existence? I genuinely think atheists are literally incapable of thinking ontologically.
+--- 21921400
+>>21921374
+>it consists of
+Things that exist? You try to account for math using logic so presumable that logic exists?
+>There are no feelings independently of a person who feels them
+Not coherent. Material in a certain configuration makes an effect not detectable by any material means emerge. The potential for the phenomena has to exist like a sort of field or something the material modulates.
+--- 21921402
+>>21921378
+You claim that materialism is mindless, and yet you deny the possibility that matter could have the potential for giving rise to consciousness, just as it does for properties such as heat, movement, and light. You claim that mind cannot exist in matter, but the only reason you have for believing is that you define matter to be that which holds no mind, when matter could instead be defined as "that which exists and makes up everything".
+Matter itself, going by your potentialist arguments, could have a passive potentiality for the generation of thoughts and feelings, but only in living, organic structures of a specific kind (that include humans) could matter have an active potentiality for consciousness.
+--- 21921431
+>>21921378
+>Your braindead materialistic model is implied in everything you say.
+>"Uhh, well, that's not what you said, but I'm going to think up your position badly and then consider your position bad!"
+You really are a dishonest one, aren't you?
+>Burden of proof-not to what reality is actually like
+No, you still have the burden of proof if you assert something about reality. This kind of thinking is why every culture thinks they can just invent a deity and claim it's real over every other culture's deity. It's flawed thinking. You can draw a map, but if you can't show it correlates to a territory somewhere, then it's a shitty useless map, isn't it?
+>The "universe" is loving and conscious and inconceivable, beyond logic
+The universe CONTAINS love and consciousness because we exist. It's the height of absurdity to assert that the universe itself cares or loves or conceives of anything in it's totality.
+>the word historically used to reference something that clearly fucking exists
+The word "God" has anthropological significance because of it's utility within societies to enforce in-group out-group preference and strengthen social cohesion. It's objectively true that tons of different "Gods" are believed in by different groups, yet the specifics are almost entirely incompatible. You don't get to just assert that the thing believed in "clearly exists" when the historical basis you reference means that, BY DEFINITION, they can be shown to be false when referenced to each other. In short, the Christian Trinity cannot exist if Allah, as conceived of by Muslims exists, and vice versa, they are mutually incompatible. Thus, the reference to historical religion undermines your point more than it supports it. Again, you want the baggage associated with ONE of the thousands upon thousands of religions, and you want to ignore all the other ones which must be false.
+--- 21921432
+>>21918886
+Good is a qualitative evaluation of a things existence. The greater a thing the more full and complete it's existence. A perfect circle is the greatest circle
+--- 21921439
+>>21921390
+>>21921399
+That's just another way of saying "Well, yes, God's essence is to not exist, but what if we act like he exists anyway?" Pretty cringe, to be honest
+--- 21921444
+>>21921389
+>why do people have to come up with all these bizarre logical proofs of his supposed existence?
+I don't
+--- 21921445
+>>21921378
+>>So there are things which CAN be conceived which do not exist?
+>Obviously. Again, not having understood anything said so far just reveals you're illiterate.
+
+(not that same anon btw)
+>Obviously.
+I agree, but then how do you know the christian god isn't one of those things?
+We get it, for every metric of ''greater'', something greater than everything else must exist, but how is that the christian god? Like, the god that had the bible written, who sent his son who is also him to earth 2000 years ago, had him killed and then revived him, only to appear a few more times and then fly to the sky? No ontological argument can answer that.
+I get that somebody in 1055 in the dark etc thought it was real smart but it's obviously just wordplay.
+--- 21921449
+>>21921402
+Matter is what physics describes, it is a model. A map not the territory. The phenomena that the appearance of logically structured matter emerges out of is not made of matter described by physics. That's not coherent.
+>matter could instead be defined as "that which exists and makes up everything".
+Then you've undermined the distinguishing features of the concepts of "matter", "universe" and "God" all at the same time. Congratulations you're a truly destructive subversive.
+If the specific physical ball defines everything about the specific physical ball then there's no reason to assume universal law but there are universal laws
+>but only in living, organic structures of a specific kind (that include humans) could matter have an active potentiality for consciousness
+There's no logic there.
+The simplest assumption is universality, just like with the physical forces. The appearance of self arises from coherent memory, the potential for perception is universal like logic so it can be reproduced in anything that processes information like brains or computers.
+--- 21921451
+>>21921402
+This is an important point. Complexity can give rise to properties that did not exist previously in the separate parts. Thus, matter, when arranged in specific structures, gives rise to consciousness, but that does not mean the constituent parts, on their own, have any consciousness.
+--- 21921461
+>>21921445
+It's funny someone in this thread said I lacked imagination when such a person would have to accept that the story of Jesus is 100% perfect and the greatest and couldn't be made any greater. Talk about a lack of imagination!
+--- 21921497
+>>21921431
+>you still have the burden of proof
+When it comes to anything beyond simple physical things invoking this just means you want an excuse to dismiss a perspective you don't like. There are plenty of things that can't be proven that you still accept.
+>if you can't show it correlates to a territory somewhere, then it's a shitty useless map, isn't it?
+Yes exactly and the mountain they called "God" is clearly there, the potential of everything that all logic, physics and math rests on. The disagreements are about properties of the mountain not its existence.
+>because we exist
+I thought you "muh proof" retards disliked tautologies? The universe gave us love whatever its reasons, mindless or not.
+>some absolutely ricky gervais tier nonsense conflating polytheism and classical monotheism to undermine any understanding of any of those things.
+Not even the fucking Allah / Trinity thing is true neither is any of this relevant to anything I said. You can't build on what's actually said, you have to revert to your tired memes everyone on the planet already heard.
+--- 21921513
+>>21919092
+>>21919108
+/thread
+Can't believe there is... anyone that can't see this. 
+The whole thing rests on the assumption that the bible is true.
+--- 21921521
+>>21921445
+>I agree, but then how do you know the christian god isn't one of those things?
+How does this relate to anything I said? Classical monotheist arguments aren't specifically talking about the Christian God.
+Like everyone else in this thread you can't decouple the actual arguments from your own emotional baggage.
+Details about the properties of the mountain are a separate discussion from if it exist or not.
+>how is that the christian god
+At the very least, to understand the Christian perspective through time we have to acknowledge they were referring to this greatest thing in the Bible. They ask questions about this greatest thing like in Job, why does it sometimes punish the righteous. They're not talking about something made up, it's a way to frame their very real existence.
+--- 21921526
+Existence is not a quality
+--- 21921544
+>>21921449
+>Matter is what physics describes
+Nope, not if you're looking at anything written since the Renaissance era. There is nothing scientists would identify as pure matter. Atoms are not pure matter, since subatomic particles influence the properties of an atom. Quarks and fluons are not pure matter, since even they have different properties from one another.
+
+Materialism is not necessarily tied to anything in the modern sciences. It's just an ancient Greek and early Modern philosophical type of metaphysical thought.
+Embracing materialism is not synonymous with atheism, since it could simply be asserted that God is whatever matter comes into being through (in the case of a non-interfering god) or that all matter is God and that God is the universe (in the case of pantheism).
+
+When you deal with materialists, you're not dealing with people with a purely scientific mindset. You're dealing with people who probably picked up materialism because of pop culture or because of greatly misinformed educators who spread their misconceptions onto their students.
+What you seem to still be confused about is the possibility that a sum of parts can have a different potency from the parts. This might come from the belief that each thing is only as much as its constitutent elements, but in order to understand this, it's necessary to see that a set of connections can lead to a different set of properties from a shapeless heap of stuff. The heap may very well have passive capacity for many actions, but is necessary for it to be put into the proper structure in order to turn those passive capacities into active ones.
+One may see this by how a great military leader can turn a group of rowdy young men into disciplined soldiers who can effectively spot and kill their opponents by the means of strict training and strong discipline.
+Whether you wish to acknowledge that is up to you.
+--- 21921546
+>>21921439
+>Well, yes, God's essence is to not exist, but what if we act like he exists anyway?"
+Thats not at all what I said
+--- 21921557
+>>21921544
+You've only undermined the categories. Everything is God. I think that's true and it may communicate something if you get what I mean intuitively but the statement itself doesn't really communicate information, it undermines the categories.
+>emergence
+Rests on logic, a universal that's valid in the void, the absence of matter. Time breaks down there but logic doesn't meaning the arrow of time is a product of matter but logic is not.
+--- 21921562
+>>21921497
+>you want an excuse to dismiss a perspective you don't like
+That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
+>There are plenty of things that can't be proven that you still accept
+Name one
+>Yes exactly and the mountain they called "God" is clearly there
+Again, you simply assert it, and then claim that a syllogism based on asserting God as a premise advances your case. It doesn't.
+>Not even the fucking Allah / Trinity thing is true neither is any of this relevant to anything I said.
+You invoked the historical use of the word God to try and infuse it with plausibility. Also, Islam holds that Jesus was not God, it's kind of a big deal, and the fact that you don't know that this is an irreconcilable difference between the two religions shows how myopic your view of religion is and how, most likely, you were indoctrinated into one as a child and cannot see past this indoctrination. Sad.
+--- 21921565
+>>21921521
+>How does this relate to anything I said? Classical monotheist arguments aren't specifically talking about the Christian God.
+
+Yes, but that's what they are mainly used for. Get somebody to admit that some god in some form might exist, thus go to church (Pascal's wager).
+I have literally never heard anyone say that they think some god is impossible, I have only seen christians on 4chan arguing against that, because it's easy.
+--- 21921571
+>>21921565
+That's the point I've been getting at. If your definition of "God" is identical with "the universe" or "the category of all things that exist", the use of the word God is disingenuous and dishonest. It's smuggling in theistic baggage by use of an inaccurate word.
+--- 21921590
+>>21921557
+The arrow of time is a product of matter and matter itself as far as it can be modelled by logic is a product of logic. The facets of "matter" that can't be modelled would have all the elements "materialists" reject like subjective experience.
+>>21921565
+Don't dishonestly attack arguments because some people tend to use them in ways you don't like. There may be perfectly good explanations for the crime rates of blacks in the USA but don't try to undermine the data just because you believe that.
+>>21921571
+>the use of the word God is disingenuous and dishonest
+The word "universe" was first used in 1580s. Then and now it usually means all space and time. That does not include what defines any of it, nor logic or math. It's conceptually separate from God, a MUCH earlier concept of the totality of everything. Undermining understanding of what people were talking about through history is disingenuous and dishonest.
+--- 21921595
+>>21921557
+Have you ever considered the possibility that logic might not necessarily be a part of the universe, but rather of the human mind? What is to say that categories, cause and consequence, propositions, and conclusions exist out of the human mind? We humans think by the means of such logical chains of supposition and inference, but logic itself might not appear as part of the way the universe is ruled. All laws might simply be recurring coincidences. Claiming the contrary would be to embrace the supposition that human mental processes possess the same ways of coming into being as exterior phenomena do, but why would it have to be so?
+The mind could just be a tangling of matterproduct that orders what comes into it in a way that is comprehensible to it, although it could be the case that the rest of the universe is unruly and lacking in laws, except for simultaneities that the mind fools itself into believing they are part of a pattern.
+--- 21921616
+>>21921562
+>Name one
+That other people have a subjective experience. The validity of the concept of proof.
+>Again, you simply assert it
+I see the fucking mountain. Logic (a universal as if it is itself rubbing the point in your face) demands it from all angles. Aristotle, the guy that developed formal logic also logically showed the mountain exists. You have to desperately work to undermine every concept and all history to pretend all these people were talking about something that doesn't exist at all. 
+>You invoked the historical use of the word God to try and infuse it with plausibility
+The point is trying to understand the perspective of a monk using an apparent tautology. For some reason you have no interest in that, you don't want to understand how he thought because you apparently think it's too dangerous to even consider.
+>irreconcilable difference
+That don't have anything to do with any classical monotheist arguments.
+>most likely, you were indoctrinated 
+Raised by reasonable "atheists". This is all academic and the dumbest retards, the most dogmatic religious zealots on the internet are always, reliably "atheists" like you.
+All your models of everything are retarded.
+--- 21921624
+>>21918769
+Kek.
+--- 21921626
+>>21921595
+Logic predicts how balls behave. If it's dependant on humans or life then it's through life sort of filtering out that which is not logically coherent. The product still exists even if it's not the totality, I never assumed it was the totality, logically not everything can obey logic or logic wouldn't emerge.
+--- 21921674
+>>21921626
+>not everything can obey logic or logic wouldn't emerge.
+Is the type of "logic" you're talking about argumentative logic, or is it some kind of metaphysical logic that rules over the universe and brings about causal and qualitative relations in real stuff?
+If so, why wouldn't God be subordinate to logic? God can only be God by being the creator and ruler of the universe, but if cause-effect relations can only exist as part of logic, then is logic not that which grants God His own title and crowns Him ruler of the universe?
+
+While you formulate logic as that which guides necessary truths, I conceive it as a mere tool of reasoning, used by humans alone for the sake of separating different types of arguments and objects of the mind. You seem to be stuck on the Peripatetic/Scholastic way of viewing logic as the laws of truth, whereas I see it in a post-Baconian way, as something that exists as part of scribblings on paper and mental musings. Logic is no more a determinant part of the truth than music theory is part of sound patterns floating around us.
+*smokes weed*
+--- 21921681
+>>21918769
+69 checkaroo'd
+But gayness good dough, for otherwise I wouldn't pleasure myself to the thought of a 10 inch wang up my ass
+--- 21921714
+You fags couldn't have done this last spring when I was taking a Medieval Philosophy course? I bumbled through that, it would have been great if I could have plagiarized this thread to seem smart.
+--- 21921738
+>>21921674
+Human logic maps onto universal structures or it wouldn't work reliably or be reproducible in computers.
+>is logic not that which grants God
+Nope. There's no reason why God is. The whole point of the concept is a placeholder for that which is greatest and everything else is derived from, it has no logical dependencies as per Aristotle and since it's not logically dependent you can't really model it, it's inconceivable.
+There must be things that can't be described using logic because logic doesn't have the ability to define itself. The rules we describe / the structures they map are dependent on something that is not them.
+>While you formulate
+Always the same thing, confusing the map with the territory. Humans made formal logic to map the logical structures that dictate reality including your mind and balls rolling. We can use logic to model balls because their behaviour depends on structures that can be described using human formal logic. If the human made logic wasn't relating to anything real it wouldn't have any use.
+--- 21921757
+>>21921738
+>If the human made logic wasn't relating to anything real it wouldn't have any use.
+This is on the same level of redudant sophistical nonsense as "If BBC bad then why are ytbois' lips literally made to suck on big black gems?"
+The fact that a chain of arguments appealing to sensory intuition apparently describes the way something seems to work does not imply that the object itself behaves that way.
+--- 21921774
+>>21921757
+>The fact that a chain of arguments appealing to sensory intuition apparently describes the way something seems to work does not imply that the object itself behaves that way.
+Braindead. If I describe the way a ball rolls and then it behaves like I described my description relates to reality. The map maps a real territory.
+It does not mean the ball "reached the conclusion to roll" it means the fucking map accurately described some part of the territory. The logically structured model described and anticipated how the real ball would interact with the structures of reality. It does not mean I know the deepest secrets of the nature of the ball, just that I fucking mapped some part of reality.
+--- 21921807
+>>21921774
+>that I fucking mapped some part of reality.
+How is that any different from performing a divination ritual using hexagrams from the I Ching to reveal the winning numbers at the upcoming lottery and coincidentally selecting all of the right ones?
+--- 21921817
+>>21921807
+I don't understand how this is complicated to anyone. These are the fundamental basics of doing anything. Just use the map metaphor. Your example is like making up a random map that happens to predict the first mountain you come across. You have one point of data suggesting it's accurate. When the landscape keeps surprising you it's obvious the map isn't accurate.
+--- 21921886
+>>21921817
+I understand your map analogy perfectly, but it seems like you have some underlying naïve empiricist suppositions on the means of obtaining the truth that you fall back on whenever you fail to come off as sufficiently convincing to your conversation partner.
+How do you know that a map is wrong? Is it merely through a priori reasoning? Or is it by observation? Can a map be inaccurate if it contains everything it ought to have, except without preserving relations of little qualitative difference?
+The world is not a map, so is a map meant to be accurate when compared against other maps? If so, then how can it be anything but a tool that merely resembles other tools?
+If the map represents the entire world, then can we step outside of the world so as to gauge its accuracy? Or must we simply guess that it ought to look that way?
+--- 21921920
+>>21921886
+The map analogy relates to the logic behind everything we do as life. We're attempting to navigate reality and creating logic was part of that enterprise. Formal logic "maps" on to reality in a way some random system you make up doesn't. It helps us navigate reality. None of our faculties or senses relate to the facets of the ball that are indescribable, they relate to the parts with logical structure. In that way life can be picking out or filtering that which is conceivable to create the appearance of the coherent world. The filtered world still exists in this scenario, it's just a facet of the whole.
+All the maps are inherently inaccurate, we will never account for everything. Sometimes different maps work better in different contexts, a situation may arise where a psychological view of the world is more relevant to navigate the situation than a physical perspective would be.
+--- 21921938
+>>21918769
+best comment /lit/ has ever made
+--- 21921960
+>>21921920
+>a situation may arise where a psychological view of the world is more relevant to navigate the situation than a physical perspective would be
+I'm not opposed to the need for different types of abstractions being used for the sake of describing different situations, but what I am opposed to is believing that two contradictory types of abstractions can both describe ultimate reality. Either one must be subsumed by the other, or both must be lumped into a more general type which would allow the two to play on a ground neutral for both.
+--- 21922037
+>>21921886
+Notice the Western Nile. It's talked about many times but considered a myth by later academics until we learned about the geological history of the area in the last 20 years. Atlantis at this time is in a swamp near the westernmost parts of the river. Earlier the Atlas mountains were circumnavigable by boat.
+>>21921960
+Apparently contradictory statements are often both true. All the maps are incomplete.
+What map is best depends on your goal, even if the ultimate goal is understanding reality that doesn't mean always dogmatically working from the premises you think best represent reality like when trying to understand other people or history. To gain some insight into old Christian monk thinking for example I would think the best attitude is to give him some benefit of doubt and not always jump on the least insightful interpretation as the final and authoritative one. He clearly doesn't think the argument also applies to elephants, that the greatest imaginable elephant must also exist, with gold earrings or whatever dumb accessories we can think of because an elephant without gold earrings would be lesser.
+--- 21922038
+>>21918725 (OP)
+It's literally just the negation of negation, read Hegel.
+--- 21922050
+>>21922037
+As in the greatest elephant doesn't physically exist. Platonists may say the form of the greatest elephant does exist. There may also be some conceivable optimal elephant, the best possible way to fulfil the ecological niche that elephants occupy given all the limitations of life.
+--- 21922115
+>>21918866
+What if the majority of people think a carrot is the greatest thing that can be conceived?
+--- 21922157
+>>21919073
+>keeps playing a semantics game
+Nice mental gymnastics. Replace ''the universe'' with ''everything'', because that's clearly what anon means.
+--- 21922172
+>>21918840
+>can you source me on the ontological argument
+
+Nigga I ain’t one to gatekeep but you’re in the wrong place
+--- 21922219
+>>21918725 (OP)
+>absolute nonexistence exists