-----
--- 21906095
How tf does he do it? This is the best writing I have ever read. Nothing even comes close. It's beautiful. I almost got hard reading it.
--- 21906108
If this thread is still up tomorrow I’ll rant, but the tldr is he took Emerson’s style, fused it with the Quaker style of preaching, and fused this with a lot of study of biblical poetics, and is applying this for sentimentality and the relation of the self in a very modern setting, while I dislike the content, I can’t argue that it’s a formidable combination.
--- 21906112
>>21906108
He clearly read the Bible. Why wasn't he touched by The Holy Spirit?
--- 21906399
>>21906095 (OP)
It's beautiful on the surface but it is devoid of content.
--- 21907746
Many apologies OP for the drelay, but due to sleep and work I’ve not had an opportunity to explain at some length the techniques of Whitman, I’m going to be using three examples to show the range and aspects of his verse, first starting small.

First the short poem “a glimpse” 

A glimpse through an interstice caught, 
Of a crowd of workmen and drivers in a bar-room around the stove late of a winter night, and I unremark’d seated in a corner, 
Of a youth who loves me and whom I love, silently approaching and seating himself near, that he may hold me by the hand, 
A long while amid the noises of coming and going, of drinking and oath and smutty jest, 
There we two, content, happy in being together, speaking little, perhaps not a word. 

Before full on analysis, I’m going to scan the first two lines to show you that Whitman while writing free verse, is not ignorant of meter and is using the law and techniques of meter, I’ll elaborate more later.

First line

“A glimpse through an interstice caught,” 

If one actually scans the line we find 

“A GLIMPSE/ THROUGH an/ in-TER/stice CAUGHT”

to the untrained this may seem like an irregular line, but this rhythm is perfectly acceptable within a normal iambic tetrameter, it’s just using a widely acceptable trochee substitution on the second foot, this is why the fourth and fifth syllable are intentionally unstressed. This is why his music at once feels free flowing but still melodic, he’s still employing the logic of meter.

Now the second line

“Of a crowd of workmen and drivers in a bar-room ”

Which when scanned is 

“of a CROWD/ of WORK/men and DRIVE/ ers IN/ a bar-ROOM”

Two elements you’ll see commonly in Whitman’s verse is openings with either a strong repetitive dactyl (+ - - ) or a strong repetitive anapest(- - +) the pattern in the above being anapest, iamb, anapest, iamb, anapest, this again while seemingly not metrical is again an allowable in normative verse already popular in the period, we see Tennyson, browning and Swinburne all employ this conception of balanced feet no matter the type still being rhythmically allowable, it is no shock then that Swinburne renown for his extreme care for formal poetics, actually reviewed with much praise the work of Whitman, it is because he recognized the same style of manipulation still being employed, but to the main point of analysis of this short poem.

The poems aesthetic is excessively personal, dripping with sentimentality, he is at once an extreme ego(which people love in actuality ) and an extreme dissolution into the scenery, one of the biggest motifs and core of Whitman’s poetics is, and no humor to this, masturbation, by this I mean to say, he speaks constantly of the romantic/sexual relation of the parts of self, the identity, the ego, the sense of self in the world and this sense of other, at once even in this short poem whitman projects you both into his sense

Cont
--- 21907821
>>21907746
 of the world and his own ego blending, this is very easy since usually the material of his verse is the American, the mundane available, even in his most extreme roots in the mundane. This is the basic aesthetic unit of Whitman. The next element to consider is his fixation with movement.

Let’s see the next poem

“
SKIRTING the river road, (my forenoon walk, my rest,)
Skyward in air a sudden muffled sound, the dalliance of the eagles,
The rushing amorous contact high in space together,
The clinching interlocking claws, a living, fierce, gyrating wheel,
Four beating wings, two beaks, a swirling mass tight grappling,
In tumbling turning clustering loops, straight downward falling,
Till o'er the river pois'd, the twain yet one, a moment's lull,
A motionless still balance in the air, then parting, talons loosing,
Upward again on slow-firm pinions slanting, their separate diverse 
flight,
She hers, he his, pursuing.”

While the following two elements are present in much of his verse they’re made very clear here, extreme usage of verbs and images of constant movement and speed, flowing rivers “tumbling turning clustering loops, straight downward falling,”

This ever animated ever vital ever going/becoming element to Whitman’s aesthetics is what makes it feel alive, this care for movement is, i think, why his short poem on Hegel is actually one of the most perfectly short summarizations of one of Hegel’s core most elements. 

(ROAMING IN THOUGHT.
(After reading HEGEL.)

Roaming in thought over the Universe, I saw the little that is 
Good steadily hastening towards immortality,
And the vast all that is call'd Evil I saw hastening to merge itself 
and become lost and dead. 

But this gets into Whitman’s mysticism of which gershom Scholem says constitutes a uniquely American full kabbalistic system, but that’s a topic for another time.)

This high concentration on animated/vital writing is the second aspect, next post will begin on the third poem of our brief analysis.
--- 21907948
>>21907821
This portion from out of the cradle endlessly rocking (which explains the origin of his poetic inspiration ) will explain the third and most essential element to Whitman’s poetics.

“Out of the cradle endlessly rocking,
Out of the mocking-bird’s throat, the musical shuttle,
Out of the Ninth-month midnight,
Over the sterile sands and the fields beyond, where the child leaving his bed wander’d alone, bareheaded, barefoot,
Down from the shower’d halo,
Up from the mystic play of shadows twining and twisting as if they were alive,
Out from the patches of briers and blackberries,
From the memories of the bird that chanted to me,
From your memories sad brother, from the fitful risings and fallings I heard,
From under that yellow half-moon late-risen and swollen as if with tears,
From those beginning notes of yearning and love there in the mist,
From the thousand responses of my heart never to cease,”

As before you see the prior principles being used in full swing, the high verb/animate style on full display, the loose but still pseudo metrical mode deliberating using strong dactyls and then anapests to open it. But the key additional element is notice his repetition (which is modeled off of biblical repetition and parallelism.) 

 By the repeating Of “out of the “ he’s creating a sort of stable drum beat to pulse throughout the line, this is then played with by the “over” and repeated with “from the” 

The reason this adds so much musicality is widely known. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech-to-song_illusion

By the simple act of repetitive elements even unworked prose gains an incantatory property, the further advantage of repetition and parallelism is that these “conceptually rhyme” they conceptually are always aesthetically pleasing no matter the language as long as the concepts parallel in a pretty, here an extreme example from the Bible. 

Cont
--- 21907954
>>21907948
Psalm 148 

1 Praise the Lord.[a]
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
 praise him in the heights above.
2 Praise him, all his angels;
 praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3 Praise him, sun and moon;
 praise him, all you shining stars.
4 Praise him, you highest heavens
 and you waters above the skies.
5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
 for at his command they were created,
6 and he established them for ever and ever—
 he issued a decree that will never pass away.
7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
 you great sea creatures and all ocean depths,
8 lightning and hail, snow and clouds,
 stormy winds that do his bidding,
9 you mountains and all hills,
 fruit trees and all cedars,
10 wild animals and all cattle,
 small creatures and flying birds,
11 kings of the earth and all nations,
 you princes and all rulers on earth,
12 young men and women,
 old men and children.
13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
 for his name alone is exalted;
 his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.
14 And he has raised up for his people a horn,[b]
 the praise of all his faithful servants,
 of Israel, the people close to his heart.
Praise the Lord.
This continuous repetition of praise with the ideas relating but slightly changing continuously, this is the core rhetorical mechanism of Hebrew poetics and the core element that’s making Whitman’s poetry stand out, strip all of the above factors from Whitman and you’re left with really nothing, these are the core portions of Whitman.
--- 21908371
>>21906112
As for this, reading, even praying and attending church, these are not enough to truly know God, what it takes to know god is to submit in your heart, in your spirit, this isn’t a complicated process it isn’t hard to do mechanically, but it takes a moment of metanoia, stepping out of yourself and repenting, and then, asking to know God, think of the thief next to Christ, he admitted he belonged on the cross then asked Christ to save him. It is not about hard study, it’s not about good service or even evangelism, 

Psalm 51:17

The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.

If you do not offer this to god, it doesn’t matter if you read the Bible a thousand times and go to church and serve the community from birth to death, if you do not repent and offer your life, your broken heart to God, then you do not know God.
--- 21908879
I loved with my uncle and his wife from around the ages of 13-19 with him as my legal guardian. I love my uncle, he's truly an awesome dude and just all around good guy. His wife however always had something against me and treated me terribly for no discernable reason starting when I was just a little kid. Kind of like an evil step mother, you know? She basically lived her life either in the couch or out shoping, and after years and years of her resisting the pressure my uncle put on her to get a job she decided to go to a community college instead as a way to weasel out of having to contribute anything. Fuck her. Although she hated me she knew I read a lot and I had a reputation within my family for being smart so when she was assigned to read Leaves of Grass and write a paper on it she asked me if I've read it and if I could help her. I said 'of course, I love Leaves of Grass!' (I had actually never read it) So she asks me to write the paper for her and I agree. I didn't read the book and also didn't write her paper for her, which she was unaware of until the.morning of the day it was due. I believe that was the only instance in my life of me deciding to get revenge on someone and following through with it. It.May have been a shitty thing to do. But here we are 20 years later and still, fuck her.
--- 21909552
Bump
--- 21909912
>>21907746
I will give all this a read in a few when I wake up. Are you some kind of academic or something? Who actually read Hegel anyway?
--- 21909986
>>21909912
 >academic or something? Who actually read Hegel anyway?

Nah not an academic, I’m just an obsessive when it comes to theology, esotericism, philosophy and poetry/poetics
--- 21910020
>>21909986
Oh cool. Whitman is the first poet I've read that's resonated, not that I've made much of an effort before with others. I feel like I am understanding the essence of his poems, although I'm pretty clueless when it comes to techniques and so on.
--- 21910029
>>21910020
Take your time with him, hear him recited, after you’re done with Whitman you can either trace who he influenced or who influenced him. If you want who he influenced it’s good to go directly to Wallace stevens imo, if you want the dudes he’s basing on, check out Emerson and transcendentalism in general, gradually working your way back to romanticism. No rush of course anon, hope ya continue the reading!
--- 21910042
>>21906095 (OP)
I wasn't aware that Gandalf had written any novels. OP. That's pretty cool
--- 21910043
>>21910029
ahh, it feels good to know I have so much to more to read.
--- 21910378
I'm still reading the same poem I was reading yesterday (Song of Myself), and am continually blown away by almost every line. I can hardly believe how good this is. It eclipses literature.
--- 21911882
>>21906095 (OP)
Whitman sucks
--- 21913377
>>21907954
>the core element that's making Whitman's poetry stand out, strip all of the above factors from Whitman and you're left with really nothing
I don't agree with this really. I think the opening portion of "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking" is better described in terms of Italian opera than Biblical poetics, though its influence on Whitman's verse is undeniable. Whitman's love for Italian opera was no secret, and the first section presents a sort of overture that introduces the scene and actors, weaving together the themes—musical, linguistic, and ideational—but without directly involving us in the narrative. You can see this especially clearly at the end of the portion:

"I, chanter of pains and joys, uniter of here and hereafter,
Taking all hints to use them, but swiftly leaping beyond
 them,
A reminiscence sing."

The main verb, sing, is suppressed until the very last word, which is an eccentric use of syntax that you cannot trace back or reduce to "Hebrew poetics". We are withheld from the main action and the significant details of the poem. I of course welcome the Biblical analogy, but you seem to have ideological reasons for reducing Whitman's verse like this. He is one of the roughs, a kosmos. There are many aspects of his poetry you have to ignore in order to make the comment that all he did was take "Emerson's style, fused it with the Quaker style of preaching, and fused this with a lot of study of biblical poetics". I have more to say about this actually, but I have to submit a 1600 word paper in five hours, so I'll come back in a while hopefully before this thread dies.
--- 21913384
>>21906095 (OP)
It is all the semen he consumed. Guenon knew the secret...
--- 21913406
>>21908371
What about people who would like to believe, and think it would all be wonderful if it were true, but have trouble convincing themselves deep down that it is true?
--- 21913431
>>21906112
He was. If by "Holy Spirit" you mean anything other than the inspiration behind the free creative life of the artist, you are probably a sectarian freak fit for the gallows.
--- 21914007
>>21913377
> eccentric use of syntax that you cannot trace back or reduce to "Hebrew poetics"

You absolutely can especially the book of Isaiah. We see similar play with syntax in Virgil to the point many assumed Virgil just read Isaiah and was intentionally pastiching him. we also see a lot of play with expectation in the same way in Ovid and Cicero’s prose. In your standard KJV you’d absolutely find what amounts to experimentation with syntax order. While it isn’t the exact same syntax, the inspiration is absolutely there. Especially with the quick burst of contrasts.

And let’s be realistic, it’s not an overture, it’s repetition, it’s good but it’s not something he invented. I don’t deny there’s Italian operatic influence, but if we look at the meat of his technique, the cores of his aesthetics, it is precisely the formula of Quaker+transcendentalism+Americanism+biblical poetics+Ego

And I don’t think it’s reductive, I believe it’s just realistic, he himself called Emerson his master.
--- 21914015
>>21913406
I would say such a person needs to pray and ask for his forgiveness, to ask for the experience of metanoia. If there’s no actual experience of metanoia, no actual repentance, then you don’t know God personally, you’re just into the aesthetics ultimately.
--- 21914031
He's an overrated faggot.
--- 21914146
>>21906095 (OP)
>Walt Whitman 
Walter White
--- 21914194
>>21914007
>it's not an overture, it's repetition
But the opening portion we're referring to is disorienting and unclear in its imagery, so it's not just "repetition". The poet showcases his imagery in a very swift manner, without explanation or any real sense of verbal logic. The reader experiences the bird, the child, the moon, the song, without any understanding of how these images connect (or ultimately will relate) to one another. Image after image is presented in a very loosely organized way. The reader is not able to understand these things until he finishes the poem, which exactly fits the definition of an overture. In operatic overtures, especially of the nineteenth century Italian variety, the melodic material forms a kind of potpourri of the upcoming opera's best "tunes". The audience is given both the flavor of the work and a miniature, suggestive pre-enactment of the drama which is about to begin. This is exactly the case with Whitman's introduction.

And what you refer to as the biblical repetition aspect of the poem is really just the minimal syntactic cohesion that Whitman uses to reinforce his symbolic themes by providing a long series of directional prepositions ("Out ... Out ...Out ... Over ... Down ... Up ... Out ... From .... ") which prevents the reader from physically visualizing his words, and makes them rather hear it musically. That's why I said it's better to think of it in terms of Italian opera rather than just the Bible, because you cannot really source these things to Hebrew poetics.
--- 21914289
>>21914194
>But the opening portion we're referring to is disorienting and unclear in its imagery, so it's not just "repetition". 

the content wouldn’t change the technical/rhetorical tool being utilized, it’s still repetition and parallelism.

>The poet showcases his imagery in a very swift manner, without explanation or any real sense of verbal logic.

That swiftness is on account of the aforementioned vital speed ideal he holds, And of course there’s a “verbal logic” he’s just tracing what when and where he received the song from the bird.


>The reader experiences the bird, the child, the moon, the song, without any understanding of how these images connect (or ultimately will relate) to one another. 

It’s not that fragmentary as you’re pretending it is anon, it’ll be a bit obscure on the first few lines, but it’ll snap into place if you’re actually paying attention. 

Is it really that fragmentary when we compare examples from Emerson?


“The south-wind brings
Life, sunshine, and desire,
And on every mount and meadow
Breathes aromatic fire,
But over the dead he has no power,
The lost, the lost he cannot restore,“


>Image after image is presented in a very loosely organized way. The reader is not able to understand these things until he finishes the poem, 

Nah by the second and fifth stanza it’s all very clear what’s going on for the rest of it. And honestly all of this speaks for itself in the first stanza 

“ From your memories sad brother, from the fitful risings and fallings I heard,
From under that yellow half-moon late-risen and swollen as if with tears,
From those beginning notes of yearning and love there in the mist,
From the thousand responses of my heart never to cease,
From the myriad thence-arous’d words,
From the word stronger and more delicious than any,
From such as now they start the scene revisiting,
As a flock, twittering, rising, or overhead passing,
Borne hither, ere all eludes me, hurriedly,
A man, yet by these tears a little boy again,
Throwing myself on the sand, confronting the waves,”

> minimal syntactic cohesion that Whitman uses to reinforce his symbolic themes by providing a long series of directional prepositions 

It’s just parallelism. Same reason he does this 

“
O darkness! O in vain!
O I am very sick and sorrowful.

O brown halo in the sky near the moon, drooping upon the sea!
O troubled reflection in the sea!
O throat! O throbbing heart!
And I singing uselessly, uselessly all the night.

O past! O happy life! O songs of joy!” 

Your argument that the repetition and shift is to gain an operatic quality ignores the obvious answer, that Out repeated has an Incantatory aspect, that he wanted to continue and play with this by changing out to over, and abandoning spatial elements in the repetition, continues with “from” 

This poem isn’t special, you’ll find him using repetition for its musicality and for the mental satisfaction of comparisons
--- 21914299
There's a piece of old literary crit about whitman I love that says "there are faults in this passage, but they do not matter". For any kind of technical fuckup he may do, the sheer beauty of his work overwhelms any potential flaw
--- 21914309
>>21914299
I agree wholeheartedly
--- 21914335
>>21914309
>>21914299
Heres the whole thing
--- 21914336
>>21907746
This is wank

Back to my novels I go
--- 21914361
>>21914336
Novelist are failed poets.
--- 21914480
>>21914289
You're in such a hurry to reduce Whitman's technique to repetition and parallelism that you're failing to notice the obvious operatic elements of the introduction and in fact the drama of the poem as a whole. How could the initial scene of the poet's boyhood experiences make perfect sense unless read behind the mature poet's reflection on the importance, hidden meaning, and significance of those experiences? This is such an elementary aspect of the poem's theme that I'm wondering if you may be trolling... this feature is even mentioned in the introduction, where Whitman says:

"I, chanter of pains and joys, uniter of here and hereafter,
Taking all hints to use them, but swiftly leaping beyond
them,
A reminiscence sing."

There's a clear distinction being made here between the mature poet who unites his past with his future and the boy-poet who does not understand the implications of the messages he receives from the bird and the sea. Even the voice of the outsetting bard which the boy grows into is shown to have a very incipient understanding of mortality by the end of the poem, as the mature poet clearly comprehends the depth of this concept in a way he couldn't in his earlier life stages. You cannot possible understand the beginning of the poem without following the development of the voices that follow it.
--- 21915732
>>21906095 (OP)
bump
--- 21915736
retroactively stole from Murnane
--- 21915741
>>21914361
Based and Faulkner-pilled
--- 21915943
Sucking twink cock gave him power
--- 21917634
>>21907746
how can i learn to read poetry, anon?

I can never seem to follow the rhythm despite being a literal musician.

Am I just special needs?
--- 21917680
>>21908371
What is the most sacrilegious thing I can say to piss you off?

The Holy Spirit is a malevolent entity that has guided mankind towards self-destruction; not a single positive thing has come from the Holy Spirit, an invasive and erosive force.
--- 21917744
>>21914361
Poets are failed novelists
--- 21917754
>>21917634
As a musician you already understand the key desu, it’s study and practice. You don’t just get rhythm, you learn it by dividing syllables into stresses, of which you can find the pattern, and then you can learn tricks like relative stress and substitution by reading traditional poets and scanning them, add to this introductory books on meter like fussell’s poetic meter and form and Hollander’s “rhymes reason” also poe’s book on meter and general rules on composition are very short and successful books in terms of being used as manuals by very successful poets.

There’s a lot of good ways to train. Writing syllabic verse and intentionally ignoring meter, this forces you to develop an ear for rhythm and melody that isn’t based in meter, let’s you play with words like blocks.

Writing a lot of junk in meter, for example posts on 4chan in perfect meter, just remove the line break, this will force you to learn how to write and speak in it 

And of course, just write often always adding more difficulty to the structure, it’s like lifting weights, once you get comfortable with one way, add a little more to build difficulty, this way when you’re serious you don’t have to use all the restrictions, but maintain all of that added control you’ve mastered.

>>21917680
Literally nothing I’m an occultist, I’ve studied mountains of occult and religious lit from around the world, including Satanism/demonolatry of the hardest strains possible, even down to proper moloch child sacrifice material. There is literally nothing you can say that would be out there to me. if you can’t even shock or bother me with what you can do, how much less does can it really injure God, who is omniscient. Kek.
--- 21917780
>>21917754
>Literally nothing I’m an occultist, I’ve studied mountains of occult and religious lit from around the world, including Satanism/demonolatry of the hardest strains possible, even down to proper moloch child sacrifice material. There is literally nothing you can say that would be out there to me. if you can’t even shock or bother me with what you can do, how much less does can it really injure God, who is omniscient. Kek.

Kek, \lit\ 7 confirmed kills copypasta.
--- 21917786
>>21917754
>even down to proper moloch child sacrifice material
Is it worse to kill children or to fuck them? Serious question desu
--- 21917788
>>21917780
There’s actually a few decent occultist ones and a Buddhist one already kek.
--- 21917794
>>21914361
And you are a failed man
--- 21917799
>>21917788
Post them and we're brothers
--- 21917823
>>21917786
Ultimately all sins are deserving of death and in my ontology, that means any sin has a negative value of infinity, thus the requirement of the death of Christ. However I have an extended Ethical model based on analysis of being, human nature culture and so forth, and the evilness would in that context depend on the ultimate consequential loss, for to slay the child would be the most immediate evil, but if the rape of the child resulted in their psyche being damaged and their relation to society being harmed which is most often the case, they may go on to rape and kill a multitude of children themselves, thus In that regard the result may be that the evil consequences are actually worse with the rape than the murder. However I should clarify that in the actual moloch cult practice it’s assumed there is a sexual component as well as a ritual sacrifice, whether symbolic or actually performed.

>>21917799
What was that which you just said about me, my friend? I think you ought to know that I have completed my time as a novice-monk, and I've passed through the Gateless Gate, and I've lived for over 300 cycles of rebirth. I am trained in anapanasati and I'm the most senior bhikkhuni in my local sangha. You are nothing to me but just another human being worthy of dignity and respect. I will have compassion upon you with loving-kindness the likes of which has never been seen before in the Cycle of Samsara - you would do well to remember these words. Do you believe that you can say these things and still escape the principle of dependent origination? Perhaps you should reexamine those beliefs, brother. As we speak I am contemplating the importance of accepting your words with detachment and equanimity, so, without malice, I advise you to prepare for the storm, young one. The storm of suffering that afflicts all living creatures in this world. You are trapped in a cycle of death and rebirth, child. Not only am I extensively trained in the Mahayana Tripitaka, but I have access to the entire Pali canon as well, and I will use its teachings to their full extent to help alleviate the suffering within you which causes you to say hurtful things about others. You could reach Nirvana anywhere, any time, and I can help you achieve enlightenment in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with the study of Koan. If only you could understand what evil karma these words of yours would sow, perhaps you would have had the wisdom to keep silent. Nevertheless, this was beyond what you have been prepared for, and so I promise that I will do my best to ease the suffering that you have brought upon yourself. I will teach you the path of the Bodhisattva and you will revel in it. Your suffering may yet reach its end, child.

cont
--- 21917829
>>21917823
What the fuck did you just say about me, you uninitiated simpleton? I’ll have you know I am the head of my lodge at the OTO, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret rituals in Thelema, and I have over 300 confirmed spells. I am trained in the Book of the Law, and I’m the top degree in the entire Order. You are nothing to me but just another Wiccan. I will wipe you the fuck out with curses the likes of which has never been seen before in this Aeon, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of occultists across the USA and your aura is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, muggle. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your paradigm. You’re fucking dead, chaosfag. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my wand. Not only am I extensively trained in Ceremonialism, but I have access to the entire works of the Golden Dawn and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn Carroll worshipper. I will shit hexes all over you and your chakras will drown in it. You’re fucking banished, chaote.

Cont
--- 21917835
>>21917829
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you Profane bitch? I’ll have you know I'm the Initiated Gyrecarl of my Quadrigia in the Nameless Companie of the Serpent Cross, and I've been involved in numinous clandestine Esbats of the Synastral Covine and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in the Rites of the Crooked Path and I'm the top Karcist in Blood-Acre entire. You are nothing to me but just another You are nothing to me but just another False Idol for the Iconoclast. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before through the Mysts of Elphame, mark this fucking Wytchtonge. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the internet, think again, Opfer. As we speak I am skrying my secret bloodline of the Mighty Dead across the Eld and your Aetheryic Residuum is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, muggle. The storm of Wytchfyre that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your praxis. You’re fucking dead, Childe. My Shadow Selves can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my Rootwork. Not only am I extensively trained in Wortcrafte, but I have access to the entire manuscript archive of Alogos Dhul'Qarnen Khidir, and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable speculations off the face of the occult publishing market, you little shit. If only you could have known what Draconian retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have nailed your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit Abrosial Poison all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking Exiled, hedgewitch.
--- 21917852
>>21906108
let's over intellectualize a man whose main thesis is "i love life and everything around me"
--- 21917863
faggy bullshit
stop
--- 21917869
>>21917852
Yep and there’s certainly nothing deeper in Whitman’s thought than that, this poem about Whitman is simply just “ life is nice!”

CHANTING THE SQUARE DEIFIC.
—————

1

CHANTING the square deific, out of the One advancing, out 
of the sides;
Out of the old and new—out of the square entirely divine,
Solid, four-sided, (all the sides needed)…from this side 
JEHOVAH am I,
Old Brahm I, and I Saturnius am;
Not Time affects me—I am Time, modern as any;
Unpersuadable, relentless, executing righteous judgments;
As the Earth, the Father, the brown old Kronos, with laws,
Aged beyond computation—yet ever new—ever with those 
mighty laws rolling,
Relentless, I forgive no man—whoever sins, dies—I will 
have that man's life;
Therefore let none expect mercy—Have the seasons, gravi-
tation, the appointed days, mercy?—No more have I;
But as the seasons, and gravitation—and as all the appointed 
days, that forgive not,
I dispense from this side judgments inexorable, without the 
least remorse.


2

Consolator most mild, the promis'd one advancing,
With gentle hand extended, the mightier God am I,
Foretold by prophets and poets, in their most rapt proph-
ecies and poems;
From this side, lo! the Lord CHRIST gazes—lo! Hermes I— 
lo! mine is Hercules' face;
All sorrow, labor, suffering, I, tallying it, absorb in myself;
Many times have I been rejected, taunted, put in prison, 
and crucified—and many times shall be again;
All the world have I given up for my dear brothers' and 
sisters' sake—for the soul's sake;

Wending my way through the homes of men, rich or 
poor, with the kiss of affection;
For I am affection—I am the cheer-bringing God, with hope, 
and all-enclosing Charity;
(Conqueror yet—for before me all the armies and soldiers 
of the earth shall yet bow—and all the weapons of 
war become impotent:)
With indulgent words, as to children—with fresh and sane 
words, mine only;
Young and strong I pass, knowing well I am destin'd my-
self to an early death:
But my Charity has no death—my Wisdom dies not, neither 
early nor late,
And my sweet Love, bequeath'd here and elsewhere, never 
dies.


3

Aloof, dissatisfied, plotting revolt,
Comrade of criminals, brother of slaves,
Crafty, despised, a drudge, ignorant,
With sudra face and worn brow—black, but in the depths 
of my heart, proud as any;
Lifted, now and always, against whoever, scorning, assumes 
to rule me;
Morose, full of guile, full of reminiscences, brooding, with 
many wiles,
(Though it was thought I was baffled and dispell'd, and 
my wiles done—but that will never be;)
Defiant, I, SATAN, still live—still utter words—in new lands 
duly appearing, (and old ones also;)
Permanent here, from my side, warlike, equal with any, 
real as any,
Nor time, nor change, shall ever change me or my words.


Cont
--- 21917873
>>21917869
4

Santa SPIRITA, breather, life,
Beyond the light, lighter than light,
Beyond the flames of hell—joyous, leaping easily above hell;

Beyond Paradise—perfumed solely with mine own perfume;
Including all life on earth—touching, including God— 
including Saviour and Satan;
Ethereal, pervading all, (for without me, what were all? 
what were God?)
Essence of forms—life of the real identities, permanent, 
positive, (namely the unseen,)
Life of the great round world, the sun and stars, and of 
man—I, the general Soul,
Here the square finishing, the solid, I the most solid,
Breathe my breath also through these little songs.
--- 21917895
>>21917873
>>21917869
Is this not man seeing himself as one with the world and universe (old and new) and praising this unity as a world creating force?

Is using "Emerson's style" not canonizing these praises in the intellectual while admitting (much as Emerson does) the inherently spiritual?

What is your point?
--- 21917905
>>21913431
the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Holy Trinity.
>muh gallows threat
dude, Christians are literally immortal, so relax
--- 21917920
>>21917895
He is very specifically outlining the fourfold god which he believes represents the American approach to spirituality and explaining how their foundation is within his own ego, his own soul is the basis of their spiritual and mystical power, this isn’t a kind of humble submission to an unknowable spiritual zone, he’s saying all of these derive from his own human Ego which goes into the broader question of the ego meditations and ego-sexuality that occurs in other Whitman poems, for again, the sexual-mystical relationship of the empirical ego with the transcendental ego, along with the public persona, are a major driving intellectual force behind Whitman, this is core to why Scholem relates his stuff to a kind of kabbalistic emanation system. 

Why I’m ranting here anon is, while I don’t like the guy, Whitman can’t be reduced that simply into “life is good” without erasing so much of his work, efforts, time thought and care. There is absolutely a strong intellectual conception there, now his poetic techniques and aesthetics in their context and image bank are firmly based on the formulae I explained prior in other posts, but I don’t think it’s fair to cut the intellectual zones from Whitman.
--- 21918939
Bump
--- 21919510
Bloom on Whitman 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io5mFFArsX4 [Embed]
--- 21919527
re the themes in V by Thomas Pynchon essentially when you take the cynicism of Dickinson but combine it with the optimism of Emerson?
--- 21920727
>>21907746
>“of a CROWD/ of WORK/men and DRIVE/ ers IN/ a bar-ROOM”
i don't get it, how is "in" accented?
--- 21920849
>>21920727
When you have a multisyllabic word it inherently has its own stress pattern which really can’t be modified/can’t be modified as much, a two syllable word that’s a trochee like “drivers” will always be stressed on the first syllable and always be unstressed on the second. All monosyllable words depending on context can be made stressed or unstressed.

Since drivers is divided between two feet, the latter portion “ers” can transmute anything placed next to it into a stress unless a multisyllabic iamb is placed next to it, in which case the foot becomes a pyrrhic, you can also turn it into a pyrrhic by immediately following it with two stresses, if one stress is placed it’s probably likely to be read as an anapest.

However because there’s a clear unstressed “a “drivers in a bar” the natural pronunciation becomes “DRIVE ers IN uh BAR”
--- 21922360
>>21908371
How do I discern between my own thoughts and the working of the Spirit, and what was your metanoia experience like, if you don't mind me asking? Also, do you consider infant baptism legitimate?
--- 21923966
>>21922360
I don’t consider infant baptism legitimate, my metanoia experience occurred when I was very young but let me tell you this, it doesn’t have to be grand and cinematic, let me show you how simple it can be.

Luke 23:39-43

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
That’s it, that’s all the thief had to do, “we was punished justly” In that moment he accepted the weight of his sin and repented in his heart, “Jesus remember me” that’s his entire sinners prayer, and Jesus accepted it, no Eucharist was needed, no baptism ritual, just that’s simple.

As for how do you know if it’s your own mind or not, the easiest way first is when you ask god a question such as “is this your presence” you will feel a sort of peace arise in you, this is because god is the spirit of peace, and in the beginning of your prayer life you can use this to determine if God wills you to do something, for if God induces that sensation of peace, that’s likely his will, you will notice even very difficult decisions will do this. As you grow in faith and relationship with him you’ll be able to hear and understand him more, fasting also greatly assists with this.
--- 21924113
>>21914480
Good post
--- 21924399
>>21923966
Thank you Frater. You're the reason why I stay on this board.
--- 21925417
>>21907821
>But this gets into Whitman’s mysticism of which gershom Scholem says constitutes a uniquely American full kabbalistic system, but that’s a topic for another time.)
Could you talk more about this?
--- 21925845
>>21923966
Frater, can you help me with Arnaut Daniel? It might not be in your wheelhouse, but I've read the poem about him gathering up the wind, chasing the hare with the ox, And swimming against the torrent, and I struggle to see why it's seen as exceptional in anyway. What did Dante see?
--- 21925936
>>21925417
>>21925417

earlier in the thread I posted chanting the square Deific, let’s use that as the basis of our analysis. within Kabbalah there is a conception of a fourfold world that derived from the most simple (think the platonic monad) called atziluth, and then descends into the world of forms called briah, which then descends to the mingling ground of the forms, the imagination which is yetzirah, and the final world is our world of perception, malkuth. 

in chanting the square deifiic where he traces the four great American Gods, he is not being simply stating an allegory, but rather if we read his influences and take Whitman’s own writing seriously, he is tracing out his own four fold emanation system.

the God he calls Jehovah being the most material, a sort of Gnostic demiurge, a controlling god, and of this we see the material world, the next zone we see is the beautiful God of love, Christ, who is Hermes who travels and harmonizes, who is hope, now how can we prove that he believes this demiurge derives its root from this god of love?

he says in song of myself V 

“Swiftly arose and spread around me the peace and knowledge that pass all the argument of the earth,
And I know that the hand of God is the promise of my own,
And I know that the spirit of God is the brother of my own,
And that all the men ever born are also my brothers, and the women my sisters and lovers,
And that a kelson of the creation is love,”

and the important most line is this word “kelson” a kelson is metal used in a wooden ship to act as a kind of essential spine so that the vessel is held together and sturdy, thus we prove Whitman believes this material creation/perception depends upon essential love.

now, we can then reduce this god of love and care as derivative from the next deity of Whitman’s, “Satan” but this satan is not the Christian satan, he’s the American satan of paradise lost, the glyph of undying will, immortal unending passion, we know that Whitman believes the origin of all poetry (and imaginative beauty ) is reminiscence as he says basically as much in out of the cradle endlessly rocking, and what does this satan say ? he is “full of reminiscences, brooding” thus this is the origin, the thinking going continuous will, the essential passion which motivates all thought combinations, we can finally see this deity of Whitman’s derives from the greatest and monadic deity of Whitman.

the Soul, but by soul, he means at once one’s own identity, but also that transcendental ego, that”I” which pervades being, of which all things share, of which all allude to when they say “i” which itself is incapable of dividing, for this is what Whitman says 

Cont
--- 21925941
>>21925936


“Essence of forms—life of the real identities, permanent, 
positive, (namely the unseen,)
Life of the great round world, the sun and stars, and of 
man—I, the general Soul,”

but here is the dialectic at the heart of Whitman, the relationship between the General soul which is at once God and a pantheist all pervading nature, but is also fully your own personal identity and character, this relationship Whitman frequently romantizes and sexualizes and places middle points that arise on account of their marriage, again such as the persona. 

at once he considers all derivative of the general soul to be real yes, but also, due to being passing derivatives, are illusions, images, for which Whitman writes the poem “eidolons “

Eidolons

I met a seer,
Passing the hues and objects of the world,
The fields of art and learning, pleasure, sense,
To glean eidolons.
Put in thy chants said he,
No more the puzzling hour nor day, nor segments, parts, put in,
Put first before the rest as light for all and entrance-song of all,
That of eidolons.
Ever the dim beginning,
Ever the growth, the rounding of the circle,
Ever the summit and the merge at last, (to surely start again,)
Eidolons! eidolons!
Ever the mutable,
Ever materials, changing, crumbling, re-cohering,
Ever the ateliers, the factories divine,
Issuing eidolons.
Lo, I or you,
Or woman, man, or state, known or unknown,
We seeming solid wealth, strength, beauty build,
But really build eidolons.
The ostent evanescent,
The substance of an artist's mood or savan's studies long,
Or warrior's, martyr's, hero's toils,
To fashion his eidolon.
Of every human life,
(The units gather'd, posted, not a thought, emotion, deed, left out,)
The whole or large or small summ'd, added up,
In its eidolon.
The old, old urge,
Based on the ancient pinnacles, lo, newer, higher pinnacles,
From science and the modern still impell'd,
The old, old urge, eidolons.
The present now and here,
America's busy, teeming, intricate whirl,
Of aggregate and segregate for only thence releasing,
To-day's eidolons.
These with the past,
Of vanish'd lands, of all the reigns of kings across the sea,
Old conquerors, old campaigns, old sailors' voyages,
Joining eidolons.
Densities, growth, facades,
Strata of mountains, soils, rocks, giant trees,
Far-born, far-dying, living long, to leave,
Eidolons everlasting.
Exalte, rapt, ecstatic,
The visible but their womb of birth,
Of orbic tendencies to shape and shape and shape,
The mighty earth-eidolon.
All space, all time,
(The stars, the terrible perturbations of the suns,
Swelling, collapsing, ending, serving their longer, shorter use,)
Fill'd with eidolons only.
The noiseless myriads,

Cont
--- 21925946
>>21925941
The infinite oceans where the rivers empty,
The separate countless free identities, like eyesight,
The true realities, eidolons.
Not this the world,
Nor these the universes, they the universes,
Purport and end, ever the permanent life of life,
Eidolons, eidolons.
Beyond thy lectures learn'd professor,
Beyond thy telescope or spectroscope observer keen, beyond all mathematics,
Beyond the doctor's surgery, anatomy, beyond the chemist with his chemistry,
The entities of entities, eidolons.
Unfix'd yet fix'd,
Ever shall be, ever have been and are,
Sweeping the present to the infinite future,
Eidolons, eidolons, eidolons.
The prophet and the bard,
Shall yet maintain themselves, in higher stages yet,
Shall mediate to the Modern, to Democracy, interpret yet to them,
God and eidolons.
And thee my soul,
Joys, ceaseless exercises, exaltations,
Thy yearning amply fed at last, prepared to meet,
Thy mates, eidolons.
Thy body permanent,
The body lurking there within thy body,
The only purport of the form thou art, the real I myself,
An image, an eidolon.
Thy very songs not in thy songs,
No special strains to sing, none for itself,
But from the whole resulting, rising at last and floating,
A round full-orb'd eidolon.
thus anon, without elaborating further just from these poems we see Whitman deriving a whole system of being, a correspondence set, and a method of mysticism and a mystical conception of nature in general. analyze the poems more and you’ll see more clearly his model of nature and its derivation from this all-mystical and all-material self/I. 

>>21925845
Sure I’ll respond in a little while.
--- 21925960
>>21925936
>>21925941
>>21925946
Thank you :)
--- 21926259
>>21925845
Sorry was rather busy, before I explain i need to give some context about troubadours, while in general they were traveling bards/musicians basically, they had competing styles/modes basing out of differing poets.

The most common was Trobar leu, which was a very low complexity, sweet sounding and folk sound, this gained much in popularity and was what you’d expect to hear from them. in this earliest period where this was the only style, you eventually have marcabru pop up whose innovation was to be far more mystical in mind and content instead of just folk songs about love, his style is full of dark sayings, intentionally strange allegory and allusions, this hard to understand style is called “trobar clus” the closed style, here’s a good example.

Hear Marcabru's own melody 
 And here says he:
In mercy to each faithful soul,
The Lord God in eternity 
Has granted us a washing bowl 
Like none, save that beyond the sea 
In Holy Armageddon's Land. 
I sing of this one close at hand. 

When day begins and when day ends 
I say it's right to rinse and cleanse. 
 By common sense 
Each man can bathe where waters roll, 
Each must, while hale and hearty still 
Go to the waters of that bowl 
And there be truly cured of ill, 
And if we die before we go 
We'll not dwell high but burn below. 

But want of faith and wanton greed 
Keep youth away from friends in need 
 It's sad indeed 
That everyone so rares to roll 
Their dice where Hell's the only prize. 
Be off then to the cleansing bowl 
Before you've sealed your mouth and eyes. 
Nobody gets so fat from pride 
Satan can't grasp him when he's died. 

For the Lord who knows all that was 
And all that will exist or does 
 Has promised us 
An emperor's crowning aureole. 
Its beauty will show all we are, 
For bright above the cleansing bowl 
It will outshine the morning star 
If we avenge the way they maim 
God in Damascus and in Spain. 

In the long bloody line of Cain, 
First man of wickedness and bane, 
 Many profane 
And shirk the Lord their lips extol. 
His true friends will be recognized. 
It is the virtue of that bowl 
That all who go there share in Christ. 
Lets drive the heathen scum away 
Who still believe what augurs say. 

While self-indulgent liquor-mouths, 
Fire-squatting punks, food-glutting louts 
 
Cont
--- 21926283
>>21926259
And slouchabouts 
Stay wimping in their septic hole, 
God means to try the sound and bold 
By cauldron of his cleansing bowl. 
Others keep watch of the household, 
Dig gardens with their little knives 
And I will shame them all their lives. 

In Spain I know Marquis Raimón 
And Templar Knights of Solomon 
 Now bear alone
The cross of pagans' proud control 
So young men wallow in disgrace. 
Denouncement from that bloody bowl 
Pours over every captain's face: 
Broke failures, gutless with the sword, 
Who have no love for joy or sport. 

God damn degenerates of France 
Who shirk the work that God demands. 
 I know how it stands.
Antioch! Here Poitou unconsoled 
And Guyenne mourn the great and bold. 
God, take into Thy holy Bowl 
And lay to rest Lord Baldwin's soul 
And here Poitiers and Niort be safe 
In that Lord who defied the grave. 


So we see in macabru a very very different spirit, but he is one of the oldest troubadours so this style soon gains a good amount of respect, this is where arnaut Daniel comes in, Daniel is heavily influenced by Marcabru and other esoteric troubadour verses and begins writing his own very excellent examples of this, such as love poems where the primary symbol is a finger nail.

But fused to this, arnaut innovates a third style “ Trobar ric” which he often but not always uses with the closed style, this is the “rich” style, and this is the difficulty with why you can’t enjoy him, with the rich style you fill the poem with many many technical difficulties and tools, for example he invented the mathematical sestina. See pic related.

So this style focused on using ornate beautiful language and intense linguistic craftsmanship, and arnaut Daniel did all this while still sounding natural, smooth, musical, in a word elegant, while speaking of very very strange things and being musically coherent. Because of this when he’s being translated his vast skill being displayed is being butchered in English, I recommend reading the English and listening to it being sung in original.

Cont
--- 21926289
>>21926283

I have a firm desire, and I enter
Unbending, driven deeply, hard as nail. 
What lies! Such gossip has plundered my soul—
But since I cannot bear this flimsy rod, 
I’ll play the flute until it cries uncle
In secret, before her closet-chamber. 

I go softly limp before that chamber
Where conquering men can never enter; 
The bedroom guard, both angels and uncles, 
Dissolve pride—even to the fingernail—
Of suitors, stiff like boys before the rod. 
Such fears of not being hers, in my soul! 

At least in bodied flesh, if not in soul, 
Let her hide me, once, in that chamber! 
Let wounds the heart embraced not spare the rod! 
Servant to her secrets, I should enter! 
Now bind me close to her—as flesh to nail—
And heed no warnings from friend or uncle. 

Even the sweet daughter of my uncle
I never loved so well—with all my soul. 
The quick between her finger and her nail, 
So would I be, and press into her chamber. 
And molded to its will, love would enter
This heart, this soldier with a tender rod. 

Since syrup last flowed from a withered rod, 
And Adam fathered nephew and uncle, 
Never has love blossomed so! Now enter
My heart, and dwell in neither flesh nor soul, 
But where she lives—in each street, each chamber
That bears me, Father, to the Sacred Nail. 

At last, veil bloodied by the caulking nail! 
My heart holds her, as bark to sapling-rod. 
My dizzying tower’s joy, her chamber
Where no love for father, friend, or uncle
Remains—only Heaven’s sweet-doubled soul
In spooning’s cup, where I slowly enter. 

Arnaut spouts song, of nail crying, “uncle!” 
By grace of her who claims the rod’s bent soul, 
To all! Unchamber her praise, and enter!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq89YlTESVk [Embed]


So the reason Dante is calling arnaut the best, is because of his mastery over natural elegance fused with the ability to be extremely ornate and the ability to be obscure or plain as he desires, all without losing any of these qualities.
--- 21926309
https://youtu.be/rKHyaMy2BEM [Embed]
--- 21926596
>>21926289
>>21926283
>>21926259
Jesus Christ, Frater. Thanks