sci/15335194.txt

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--- 15335194
Let's share our fail stories. Application, paper, grant rejections etc.

I received so many rejections over the career, it's a chilling feeling. Now a prof, but struggling even more than I was a PhD student. Peers think you're worthless and should be kicked off, subordinates constantly fuck up things, bosses, especially financial managers, think you're not superstar enough and should fund yourself on your own.

I currently got 40 Scopuses and that cost me about 100 rejections over the career. Academics are pretty disadvantaged unless they are superstars.

Anyway, share your story.
--- 15335249
>>15335194 (OP)
I'm probably too low in the ladder to share, but I recently left my master's program because in the beginning of this year our grant got rejected and so the head of the lab started working herself and us into the ground. The whole lab exists as her pursuit of the doctorate and finally getting somewhere with the project she's been pushing for about 10 years.
I just realized that I don't want to work this hard for someone else's dream in my mid 20s when it's not even guaranteed that I'll be alive in the next year, so I put a pause to it. Almost all classes are done so I just need to find a new lab shitty lab and write a new easy thesis and get out for a while.
The only problem is that I'm enjoying my 5/2 job in sales as a manager so much I kinda don't feel like doing that right now. 
I'll get to it eventually I guess.
As for the desire for the scientific pursuit, I'm actually getting much more progress on my pet projects now, since I don't really need lab equipment for it at this point.

What's your specialty, BTW? Neurodegenerative disorders for me.

You don't get to talk to professors here too often, so I'm interested to know more
--- 15335269
Applied AI, robotics and engineering

In AI everything is now turning into a competition of superclusters
--- 15335273
>>15335194 (OP)
>>15335269
lol. you fell for the AI meme.
there are many areas of AI that doesn't need more than a gaming PC to run and the experiments can be as short as a few hours for a training run. maybe try to switch to those.
--- 15335278
>>15335273
Not as much as you think. I don't do that much AI, but it doesn't matter
--- 15335813
Kinda sad people would prefer to ramble about IQ for the 1000th time instead of talking about this topic
You would think anonymous imageboard is the best place to bitch and moan and not try to assert that your intelectuall dick is longer
--- 15335817
>no scholarly content
--- 15335819
Imagine letting a brainlet review your paper that you yourself carefully crafted which might be quite complex for him to understand however he still thinks himself to be in authority to do so LMAO!
--- 15335821
>>15335819
--- 15335829
If you read the fine print, Clay's Millenium Prize rewards aren't for people who can solve the problems in the prize list. The money is only for people who can get the jews to publish their papers. One of those things is much harder than the other, I was surprised to learn.
--- 15336880
The review process is flawed in many regards. Corruption permeated all areas of academic science
--- 15337789
Ya'll bout success?
--- 15337823
This is why I'm going to work in industry
--- 15338477
Can't even get to rejection because I never have time to actually work on any of my shit.

I got two papers and a diss out before getting a faculty job, and ever since then between class time, grading, and ENDLESS administrative makework and meetings I can't get a single, reliable block of time each week to build up the momentum I need to get any of my drafted papers finished or get any of my grant proposals completed.
--- 15338779
pump. great topic.
I had my fair share of rejections and jealousy over the years. Had mental health issue during my MSc. Never been on any medication. Got used to everything. I am numb.
--- 15339965
>>15338779
Same but I quit (>>15335249)
Can you share how your career went in more detail?
--- 15340045
>>15335194 (OP)
My advisor was Turkish. Ran a literal Gulen school in NC (teachers can't even speak English. it's a scam subsidized by the town). Most of his grad students are Turkish somehow. The way one of the Chinese grad students put it:
>[Turkish student] goes to the mosque and prays with [advisor]. he will never treat you the way he treats him.
Always shot down my papers, even the last one that my thesis was based on. I graduate. Turkish student I trained before leaving publishes paper with my data. Yay diversity amirite
--- 15340047
>>15338477
Are you in Germany by any chance? I know their teaching load is insane, unless you're a superstar full prof at a top uni.
--- 15340067
>>15340045
What field?
--- 15340845
>>15340047
US - 4 preps, 4 labs, 3 department committee assignments, 2 committee chair assignments, 2 university liaison assignments, 1 student outreach program, and a partridge in a pear tree. I'm typing this reply in the... 60 seconds I have between students coming into my office for office hours and then I've got a lab and three committee meetings today, plus the ~100 something homework assignments in the To Do pile that I need to grade.

If Germany's worse, I shudder to imagine it.
--- 15341149
>>15340845
I have been thinking about moving to the US for a long time. I always thought that the teaching load there was lower than in Germany. In Germany, it's about 7 pure astronomic hours of classes per week, 16+16 weeks per year. This is only pure classes, not counting checking the homework, consultations, exams etc.
--- 15341166
>>15335194 (OP)
I've applied to over 300 internships since starting university only got 1 interview which didn't go well.
Doubt its going to be any better after I graduate.
--- 15341274
You have to publish shit and even grossly wrong stuff because it's only about the quantity of items that show up on a pubmed search. Producing stuff that is valuable is too risky and too much work, your doofus colleague will publish 10 shit papers with the same resources and beat you to the grant money. It's a race to the bottom that I am tired of but I have no transferable skills that could earn me similar money elsewhere and I have a family, and I don't want to start a private practice.
--- 15341287
Private practice ...

I don't know how related it is, but I keep being told that I should make a startup and it will somehow get me shit tones of money unlike these stupid ass grants that are only handed out to super stars.

But I simply fail to see what the reason is to create a startup without baked customers.

In the end, I simply see no perspective of me ever getting satisfied with this kind of life work. It is a never ending frustration
--- 15341339
>>15341274
Probably not exactly related to your post, but my thesis advisor recently rebuked me for my thesis topic not being original enough. Been lost since because I spent a lot of time in it
--- 15341353
>>15341339
Isn't your thesis topic determined by your advisor?
--- 15341357
>>15341353
Yes. But he thinks that my topic was too close to an existing one. So I'm now looking for a new one
--- 15341381
>>15341357
The profs give too little fuck about the students. If anything, it's rather the PhDs. Profs think the latter can at least land them a couple of papers. It's all about the fucking papers. The more, the better. And, of course, external money. A prof must attract money, do teaching, publish, supervise, dance and walk on the ceiling
--- 15341383
couldnt even get to publishing a draft of my paper because i can't figure out one (1) problem in my simulation (tried posting online to ask for help (even here) but nothing came up)
Guess I might never succeed
--- 15341400
>>15336880
I hear they are pumping out 4000 papers on AI now.. A day, a day?!? I think they just read what they want to read and say to hell with everything else, understandable considering how boring it can all be
--- 15341454
>>15341383
Post here
--- 15341499
>>15335194 (OP)
Hey OP we have /scg/ too. Sad to hear about your troubles btw
--- 15342127
>>15341353
Depends on the advisor. Mine essentially talked with me about some outstanding problems in the field and I basically ended up pulling threads until I found an even more interesting question that wasn't even on his radar.
--- 15342382
Just the sheer idea that profs gotta beg for money in industry is so flawed, I wonder who even came up with it
--- 15345050
>>15342382
Interesting question
Anyone know the history of this practice?
I know peer review was introduced in the middle of the 20th century, but what about the grant system?
--- 15345083
>>15341166
What field?
--- 15345094
>>15345050
Peer review is flawed either.

I think it'd be better to abolish traditional publishing altogether.

Let the researchers simply post their findings in a completely open, freely accessible way on some platform, like Arxiv, with options to comment and discuss.
--- 15345122
>>15345094
I'm afraid some gatekeeping is nessesary, at least in the matter of results.
Check out the Alzheimer's scandal for reasons to restrict the ability to just post statistics without authorising them
--- 15345135
>>15345122
We have the culture of posting the code and data on Github so that everyone can check. The data must be open.

Some shithead reviewer whose only purpose is to put me down should be a defining factor in my career. But currently it is
--- 15345272
>>15345135
With that attitude yes.
Why don't you become that rewiewer instead?
--- 15346195
>>15345135
>>15345272
reviewers work for almost free so we must thanks them but occasionally I get some opportunistic reviewer who tell me to cite 3 or more of his papers.
--- 15346486
>>15346195
This for instance
--- 15346613
accidently a WEED in college and am now a homeless drop out, what do?
--- 15346938
>>15335194 (OP)
Just got rejected by my first REU today, let's see how many more I rack up.
--- 15346957
>>15340845
Have you ever brought up this issue to your supervisors/coordinators/etc?
--- 15346974
>>15342382
Well maybe those profs should just switch their research into something more economically/politically/socially interesting or at least convince them that it could be interesting.
--- 15346975
I finished my PhD 8 years ago, went to industry, and now I’m making the switch back to Academia after having gained some real world experience and saved up but. It’s tenure track but I have to teach a professional studies masters program. Most people who are qualified won’t stoop that low so it was pretty easy for me to get the job. Nice thing for me is I’m so equally jaded about both academia AND indiustry that now I know how to play both sides like fucking fiddles.
--- 15346981
>>15346975
Why go for a job with less money and more hours?
--- 15347069
>>15346981
It’s the opposite actually. Professional Studies programs are absolute cash cows
--- 15347465
>>15346981
>>15347069
my department was able to fund a fuckton of PhD students by running a MSc degree mill for a few years, kek
non-tenured professors got paid 6 figure salary teaching part time while keeping full time jobs in industry.
--- 15347470
>>15347465
In my country paid education programs are not economically justified
--- 15347617
>>15347465
Yep that’s literally what we’ve got going on with our msc program Kek. Employers who hire these kids deserve what they get for only hiring based on resume buzzwords. The students deserve what they get for cheating the system with a glorified bootcamp. And I deserve the cushy high salary job
--- 15347627
I would agree, but teaching is hella boring and tedious.

If I taught a course without 3 TAs, I'd literally die.
Lecture scripts, seminars, homework assignments, grading, attendance tracking, other garbage. Doing this alone would cost me 100-130% FTE
--- 15348204
>>15347465
That's cool, but how many hours do they have to work per week then?
--- 15350346
I went through a master's program that was blatantly sexist in favor of women where zero out of six of us finished on time (advertised as a 2yr program) because the professors were so hands-off
One female professor asked me why I wasn't "as ambitious" as one of my female cohort members, in the same conversation where she told me I was a bad fit for the program and asked me what my backup plan was if I failed out because I was one of -seven- students who dropped the Chair's shitty statistics course
found nothing post-grad of course other than a very short unpaid internship that went nowhere right before covid
--- 15350355
>>15346957
Yes. Even our external review last year pointed out that our staff and faculty are ridiculously, *hilariously* overworked. But it's the same story at a lot of places right now.
--- 15350975
>>15347617
why is it that that msc program can be of low quality? Doesn't the US have federal standards for a bachelor, a msc like in the EU?
--- 15351203
>>15350975
Sort of but universities have been exploiting a very specific loophole. So for example with long established fields like math or physics it is very easy for accreditation agencies to evaluate if a program is rigorous or not. So the “cash cow” msc are in new (invented) fields like “data science” or “Africana studies” which do not have well established curriculums so universities can invent anything they want and still get accreditation.
--- 15351370
>>15351203
ah makes sense, feels bad man
--- 15351500
>>15335194 (OP)
>bottom of the class
>a codemonkey for a few years
>between jobs, spam resumes, not even reading the job descriptions, just the keywords
>get hired by an r&d institute
>3 years later a dozen of publications, due to the projects being funded as research (not that i contributed to any of them)
>more than the actual phd candidates i'm working with
>side gigs where i get paid basically just for existing, and putting my name on the grant applications
pic unrelated
--- 15351532
>>15351500
Glad for you
--- 15351688
>>15335829
But... You're Jewish yourself, Mr. Tooker...
--- 15351693
>>15340045
You reek of disgustingly hideous ESL aroma.
--- 15352304
>>15351532
what i wanted to say is that the world is mad, it's all a lottery with additional steps, and under no circumstances should anons who're struggling tie up their self-worth to the external results, authorities and such. just do what you enjoy.
--- 15353648
>>15352304
It's easy to say when you're on the top.
--- 15353669
>>15345135
You clearly have no idea just how immense the tide of utter garbage trying to get published is.

Schizo midwit ramblings aside, any and every index of publications would get drowned in SEO spam by pajeets and chinks, making it impossible to find new, relevant research. What you'd find is being forced to basically follow the same kind of model that people do with social media - follow key institutions and "influencers", rely on word of mouth marketing by them. Everyone not at MIT or whatever would simply get buried.
--- 15353685
>>15353677
Can you please elaborate?
I once had a collaborator from MIT and the guy (an assistant prof) was just excellent. I have personally been considering moving there if I landed an offer.
--- 15353805
>>15353677

You're actually reinforcing this guy's point. A system without peer review over weights MIT just because it's MIT even more than it does now
--- 15353815
>>15353805
This.
--- 15354096
Speaking of my experience, out of 40 papers of mine, maybe with about 3 or 4 I received reviews that actually did help better the manuscript and from which I could learn something. Everything else was pure garbage aimed at putting us down

The worst was when one of the (chink) reviewers blatantly made a simple math mistake, got called out on it, the (chink) associate editor caught up with that stupid mistake, finally admitted it and still said we were just some nonames not worthy of this (comment) paper
--- 15355743
>>15354096
>The worst was when one of the (chink) reviewers blatantly made a simple math mistake, got called out on it, the (chink) associate editor caught up with that stupid mistake, finally admitted it and still said we were just some nonames not worthy of this (comment) paper
maybe you should stop submitting to shit venues.
70% of my reviewers so far has been somewhat helpful, with 30% being super helpful and guide me toward improvement for my paper.
--- 15355879
>>15354096
>40 papers
doubt.jpg
what field?
--- 15355936
yo check this out
https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/viu-researchers-granted-more-than-500000-to-pursue-womens-health-study/
--- 15355941
>>15355936
>Wood believes studies on women’s health tend to focus on reproduction, and this has led to gaps and inequities in care, so the team is investigating the history of pelvic conditions, including endometriosis, as well as feminist activism and health care surrounding these issues from the 1960s to the 2000s.
>“Understanding the historical roots of gaps in care that continue to disproportionately affect women, non-binary, gender diverse individuals, and those with reproductive organs historically classified as female, is an important first step to ongoing efforts to improve pelvic health care in 21st-century Canada,” said Wood .
Half a million dollars.
--- 15356669
>>15355743
It was for an IF:11.5 journal
--- 15356680
>>15355879
Hmm what is there to doubt? It's not many. I said about my field above
--- 15356714
>>15346613
Stfu faggot.
--- 15356731
>>15335249
>herself
Whew... dodged a bullet here lad.
--- 15357456
So what to do in the end?
--- 15357464
>>15335194 (OP)
Why don't you go to industry? You need to realize that academia is needlessly competitive and whatever it produces is mostly useless, even the research on the "superstar" level. Just get a normal job.
--- 15357474
>>15357464
As if it were a cakewalk to land a decent industry job. I actually had less success applying for industry jobs than academia
--- 15357477
>>15335194 (OP)
I have just given up on Academia. I have a really good h-index and about to get my PhD, but Academia is just so depressingly competitive, it destroys otherwise good men.

I spoke to my adviser (a Nobel laureate) the other day about my future. I knew before he was still rediculously insecure for his position (he's still fucking worried about being percieved as "intelligent" after all this time, as if still in that gradeschool mindset). You know what he said to me? He said despite getting faculty relatively young and always at prestigious institutions he has felt like a loser for most of his life. This was the final straw for me. The fact is that it's true, academics are losers and beggars. I'm going industry and starting my own company ASAP. I will get rich enough to do research on whatever I want. Academia has nothing to offer us except slavery and insecurity.
--- 15357485
>>15357474
Then take a non-decent job and work up from there, you spoiled pussy. It's amazing how working academia trains you to be lose your agency.
--- 15357493
>>15357477
Already good h-index and didn't even finish the Phd yet. That's impressive, no joke
--- 15357495
>>15357477
But your dream of starting a company and doing research on whatever is of course naive
--- 15357512
>>15357493
I wrote a really good first author publication in my Masters that got over 200 citations. During my PhD I sacrificed my weekends and holidays with 2 good follow ups. So I ended up with 8 papers in total, and my h-index is basically mostly from the popular Masters work which is now 4, but will be 6 before I leave. My PhD papers are basically just self-citations except for my earlier r*view paper that has 40 citations. But anyway the later work is very popular at conferences so I'm optimistic it will grow as much as my Masters papers.

>>15357495
>But your dream of starting a company and doing research on whatever is of course naive
Sorry, but it's not. In the first place my mentor did precisely this and I know many others who did the same. You basically just need enough revenue to get to ~20-40 employees and hire a manager so you can focus on research. My mentor was just a senior lecturer most of his life, now he employs 300 people and does whatever he wants. Another guy I know gave up a postdoc at MIT to do his own thing instead. Secondly, my Professor already said he is going to support me with his huge network as well as financially until we get runway from startup grants.

I'm not one of those "I'm gonna build my product in my garage like Steve Job did in his 20s" startup scene type. I want to break into proper manufacturing chains and I have the products and the network to do it.

I think that most people on /sci/ can absolutely do the same too when they think about it deeply, we just don't have the balls to do it. We have no real choice though, academia will only get more and more hostile to White men, our chances of ever getting faculty is 0%.
--- 15357516
>>15357512
Is it by Scopus or GoogleScholar?
--- 15357518
>>15357512
How much are the costs of starting such a company?
--- 15357527
>>15357512
nigga, just go into industry, i bet when people will start to pay you for your product you will derive more meaning from it than academics get from their prestigious awards. If you have the ability you should go a do something useful for others.
--- 15357531
>>15357516
GoogleScholar. Scopus is 160 cites for top paper, 35 for review, h-index 4 as these are all in fast indexed journals.

I put Google on my CV btw, not Scopus. My adviser does the same, it's been normalised now.

>>15357518
0? 

It's the same process as applying for a research grant, except you have more of a focus on a business plan and you're applying for startup grants (public), VC (private) and/or bank loans. My plan is actually public startup grants and loans, I don't want to deal with investor boards and my market isn't so big that I need massive growth.
--- 15357535
>>15357527
>If you have the ability you should go a do something useful for others.
Precisely. I want to make a difference in the world, and I don't see myself doing that within the confines of academic reearch communities.
--- 15357537
>>15335194 (OP)
>Academic frustration
reckon the most frustrating aspect about school is how it wasted 90%+ of your time during your peak years. And even worse when it costed thousands of dollars at the collegiate level to teach you very little practical knowledge. Degrees can be valuable but your actual time was totally fucking wasted
--- 15357544
>>15357531
Well, ok I had on scopus right after the phd. my top paper has about 80 citations. i m definitely worse off, but not by far.

Regarding startups, I was thinking of one, but from the statistics it follows that 99% fail. Folks rely on grants and then think they re gonna somehow magically find customers.
that' s not how it works. Baked customers must exist in advance.
--- 15357560
>>15357537
Not that simple
--- 15357564
>>15357544
From my probes into postdoc opportunities I've realised that the actual content is far more advantageous than the metrics. Profs basically don't care about my M paper, but they gush over my (once) self-cited paper which is a breakthrough in this field which will probably take 2 more years before it even picks up. As for the almighty faculty it's purely political and basically the people who end up getting the positions make no sense to choose unless you are aware of the interests of every member of the hiring committee. 

>Regarding startups, I was thinking of one,
Just do it. Especially if you are on a postdoc or whatever your situation is. Do it while you have some fallback income.
> but from the statistics it follows that 99% fail. 
Because 99% of new business involve some foreigner building the fourth exotic food restaurant on the same city block. Of course they fail. Most of these people don't even have business plans or bothered to compute their cashflows.

Failure is also not that big of a deal in STEM, you can always find a salaried job later.
>Folks rely on grants and then think they re gonna somehow magically find customers. that' s not how it works. Baked customers must exist in advance
I kind of disagree. A lot of companies do development for 5+ years before they ever sell a single product. Having customers is one thing, but if you're building new industries you have to create those customers anyway. If you're trying to steal a slice of a pie that some establidhed company has that's actually far harder.
--- 15357578
>>15357564
I thought of many papers of mine as small-to-medscale breakthurs, as also confirmed by various peers and profs. None turned true. We tend to overestimate the significance of our work
--- 15357584
>>15357578
Your research was useless worthless midwit, not everyone is like you
--- 15357588
>>15357584
Sure thing. There is some minority of superstars.
--- 15357599
>>15357537
The professional landscape is more complex than that. There are many losers in gradschools, but even more losers in industry who are stuck in low paid roles.

I spent a year in industry as a process engineer after my bachelors then another two years in a prestigious private R&D lab (with physicists 
chemists, mathematicians and engineers on my team so this path is applicable to everyone ITT) after my Masters. I genuinely see zero distinction between the work in industry and my PhD. It was the exact same kind of experiments/process line data --> modelling --> simulation --> optimisation work. A good gradschool project, even in a fundamental topic, is practical and the people in industry I meet all express interest in my PhD work. It's all very connected and probably not the worst way to build your career/wealth in your 20s. I actually made the most money during my Master (Consulting+TAship+studentship) btw. I made more than most of my friends who were full time engineers with 6+ years experience at this point. I'm now finishing my PhD at a national lab and I can at least feed my family and my wife doesn't have to work.

There are definitely many scam gradschool positions (visa scam "Masters degrees", slave labour PhD stipends), but those people buying into it are just as unsuccessful in obtaining high paying industry positions and would be better off leaving STEM altogether. 

>tl;dr: 
Don't be scared of "wasting" your 20s in gradschool, be careful of wasting it in any shit position whether that be industry or academic.
--- 15357602
>>15357560
I mean school is definitely useful in the early years - the most important things they ever teach are taught in elementary, and it is useful in promoting exercise and getting kids off their asses. Kids need all the exercise they can get. A lot of poor kids find value in the free meals they get and it keeps kids off the streets. It is generally, usually a safe space and kids can learn socialization there. It also keeps teen pregnancies (and the collective birth rate) down.

But the massive time wasting at the high school and college level is unignorable. Not to mention the important things they COULD be teaching kids but choose not to. I dont want to get into it. If a teacher wanted to teach you something important they could teach it in a couple minutes tops, maybe 30 minutes for some difficult concepts. But they have to drag shit out for months/years to maintain a curriculum to sell to young adults, they have to waste time. The degrees can be valuable for some people sometimes.

and I can only speak for the American public/private school system. There are frustrations at the doctorate level, and that really sucks, but I reckon its not nearly as shitty as the years of time wasting inherent in the system
--- 15358444
I once rejected a tenure because the teaching load would have been insane. It would have taken me about 130% FTE work to cover everything.
--- 15358541
>>15358444
that sucks, did you waste a couple of years fighting for that tenure or they give that tenure right away?
--- 15358582
>>15358444
this is surprising to me because my experience has been that tenured profs appear to live on easy street - contract faculty get lumped with the four 100+ student intro/general courses every semester and tenures just do their 2-3 upper levels or grad classes and put out a poster or a paper a year and frequently get excused from administrative shit like committee positions
--- 15358599
>>15358541
Just applied, passed the interview, thought it through thoroughly and finally decided it wouldn't make me happy. Teaching sucks to be honest. It's a low-tier job among academics
--- 15358623
>>15358599
sounds like a scam position desu. with that teaching load you wouldn't be able to do proper research and they can always fire you for that. you dodged the bullet.
--- 15358633
>>15358582
I don't know. I currently teach 2 6 ECTS courses with 4 TAs each and it's debilitating during class terms.
The other position would have been x5 of that teaching load and no TAs
--- 15358645
>>15358623
Of course no research. That was more like a lecturer position
--- 15359034
>>15358599
>Teaching sucks to be honest. It's a low-tier job among academics
True, I like giving a conference talk way more than teaching.

A Professorship is supposed to be this ultimate destination, but honestly a full time research position at a national lab or similar is far more satisfying.
--- 15359070
>>15359034
There are few professor positions with little to no teaching. Like mine, for instance, but it's precarious and I feel like that guy's supervisor -- a loser looked down from by my starlike peers.