lit/21913573.txt

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--- 21913573
How are the opening paragraph(s) of the novel I'm writing? 

Not much, but a little something I suppose.
--- 21914097
You could summarize that in one paragraph. Cut the fluff out. Id grade it a C or a 3/5. I’m anon and you aren’t paying me so best I can say is keep writing then pay someone to edit it. Good luck faggot.
--- 21914112
>>21913573 (OP)
>the vibes
--- 21914127
>>21914097
Dont read Pynchon then. YA has failed you
--- 21914133
>>21914112
I actually put that in on purpose to illicit that reaction lmao
--- 21914136
>>21913573 (OP)
>She
stopped reading there; don't care about women.
--- 21914157
>>21914133
>>21913573 (OP)
>the vibes
--- 21914171
>>21914133
>>21913573 (OP)
>the vibe
>it was on purpose
--- 21914180
>>21914127
>>21913573 (OP)
>the vibe
>It was on purpose bro
--- 21914183
>>21914133
>the vibe
--- 21914185
>>21913573 (OP)
>held the vibe
--- 21914192
>>21914133
>IT WAS ON PURPOSE
--- 21914207
>>21913573 (OP)
Nice anime story
--- 21914208
Y’all can’t vibe? Lol. Hey gtfo if you ain’t got life experience faggots. Fucking life ends and you nerds want to be healthy organ donors at 95.
--- 21914224
>the vibe
--- 21914232
>>21913573 (OP)
>vibe
--- 21914237
worse than "the vibes" is that that sentence has a comparison "than" but doesn't tell you if it's more than? less than? closer than? newer than? what than?
--- 21914302
>>21914237
You're referring to Spice had allured ...? 

It literally says that she prefers the spice (clove cigs) more than raw, precise foods that the city is known for. Then, I literally name drop sashimi later on in the paragraph. Which is eaten raw, and is prepared by somebody who cuts carefully.
--- 21914317
>>21914302
Not that anon, but if you can't see what he's talking about it might be best for you to get a beta reader or join a writing circle to help you find these things.
--- 21914318
Honestly has promise, anon -- good job and keep at it. 

My one mild criticism is that the syntax of a bit mechanical and thus lends itself to a YA-genre cadence. Add more complexity to create fluidity, poetry, and flow in your prose; dashes, semicolons and embedded clauses go a long way.
--- 21914319
>>21914237
Ah, I see you are referring to "preteen jewelry shops..."

I was meaning to say that the boutiques known for that specific food had auras that more resembled those sorts of places (Claire's in particular i.e. the white walls, fluorescent lighting, overtly effeminate/hyper-consumerist retro 00s era aesthetic. very much shopped at by weird teenage girls) moreso than what is typically thought of when eating those particular foods (i.e. high end, yuppie urbanite places) 

Later on, I go on to further describe the particular bistro as having pink plushmallows (big stuffed animal things that emotionally immature women often own) to sit apon, as well as the entire thing having borderline tendencies. 

trying to paint the picture that the modern world they live in capitalizes on the eventual emotionally unstable, BPD traits this particular character has.
--- 21914326
>>21914318
Thank you. 

Typically my first drafts, which are spur of the moment things, will have those sort of cadences, or at least similar ones, because I'm trying to just get the ideas down on paper. 

With further revisions comes the fun part, which is adding the allusions, metaphors, subtext etc. Making it less mechanical.
--- 21914348
>>21914326
Also, the common splice is your worst enemy at first glance. An editor will do that part for you, generally, but unless you're making an intentional effort to create disruptive and awkward prose, I recommend cleaning up on the second go.
--- 21914355
>>21914348
comma* splice
Sorry, phoneposting at the moment.
--- 21914395
>>21914355
I'm going to ask a separate question, simply because I don't want to make another thread.

When I write, mechanics aside, I find that I am just not at all interested in making the plot at all an important factor, or at the very least, overtly compelling. Not to say that there isn't one, or that I purposely veil it. I just find it much more interesting to write in a manner that is a lot more "distant" than what is typically published. 

Assuming that, with further edits and so on, I do focus my novel on themes, character interactions (often times, characters might sit in cafes, alone or with others and physically do nothing but sit and drink coffee or read a newspaper. But my prose will often go on constructed tangents where the particular thing they are doing says something about culture, or their psychology, religion etc.) Not to say that the entire thing is like that, but I just do not feel compelled to make a plot that has any real sense of urgency. Sometimes a character gets bullied at school, and deals with that. Sometimes a character fights with their mom and there's several chapters to deal with that. But a lot of my writing shows the thoughts of the POV character, just at a distance, so it appears as if I am telling the reader what I want them to know (which apparently is bad advice for immersion and sympathy for characters) But in reality, the characters are thinking themselves, or reflecting. And that is what drives their motives. By going hyper detailed into their process, just not from a typical deep POV method. 

The point is, am I fucked if I tend to focus on these other things much more than actual plot? I want to have chapters that resemble Hugo-level digressions, simply because I love enyclopedia novels. I want to have a character go to a bar and then describe that place with psychocultural detail. Even if the plot exists, and even if I move it, albeit glacially, is there even a market with literary publishers, in the era of TikTok, for a book that basically says "trust me bro, it'll all make sense at like page 1000)"
--- 21914416
>>21914395
There's a neat little indie artist named James Joyce who wrote a book where not much happens in terms of "epic" events and it's now considered one of the masterpieces of Western literature. 

So, no, your stories don't need to have continent-spanning intrigue like Dracula or surrealist escapades like The Master and Margarita or even the amblings of The Sound and the Fury.

Something of interest is interesting in and of itself.
--- 21914429
>>21913573 (OP)
Who is the "She" from the first sentence refering to? Cho's oldest daughter? If that's the case, then I would switch the first and the second sentences.
--- 21914439
>>21913573 (OP)
It's kind of generic.
--- 21914757
>>21914395
I follow you. I think you’re onto something. I wish I could make a more compelling response but I do understand what you mean by going plotless. Like someone else said here, an editor will help you fix a few spots but it does sound like you’re onto something with your description of “avoiding the plot” ramblings. I still give it a 3/5 though.
--- 21914760
>>21914429
Stfu moron
--- 21914833
>>21914302
wow you're retarded
--- 21915600
>>21914833
Post writing
--- 21915607
>>21915600
not an argument

He’s obviously refering to your reading comorehension, nothing to do with your writing
--- 21915612
>>21913573 (OP)
In my opinion, I would have hot steamy sex with the main character of the text.
--- 21915620
>>21913573 (OP)
are you a woman?
--- 21915624
>>21915620
Yes, actually, though I was born a male.
--- 21915628
>>21915607
Nigga didn't even say anything of value
--- 21915808
>>21915624
keep the cock
--- 21915832
>>21913573 (OP)
show dont tell
--- 21915846
I'm not going to read it all, but you can reduce "Underneath concrete canopies, there stood ... " to "Underneath concrete canopies stood ... " Flows better
--- 21915969
>>21913573 (OP)
Idk man. I hate hating in peoples work because god knows my shit sucks but I do love reading and think I have decent taste. I guess my question is who are you writing this for? What genre are you marketing this as? There are a lot of allusions to things that the reader will not know about yet and that shit can get annoying. It feels like reading one of those madlib booklets. I think I just need more context for what you are trying to do. Not hating but those are some observations.
--- 21916020
>>21915969
So after reading your response that clarified sort of what you’re going for I think that you are definitely in the right track. I don’t know if you need 3 paragraphs for what you wrote. I would highly recommend more fluidity by use of semi colons and what not though. People hate in them here but I personally love them. Guess just do your thing in that regard. I think if you’re trying to write an encyclopedic novel like you were saying you are doing some good work to get there. I also don’t care too much about plot but there needs to be an overarching tension of sorts. The plot can be simple and still hold an air of tension and mystery throughout the novel like Moby Dick. I haven’t read IJ but the concept of the novel is clear from even just the title. If you can conceptualize the book clearly and set clear expectations for the read early on, you are free to write whatever you want as long as it’s tying to the concept itself. Meandering around without that core to tie into may not give the reader enough motivation to keep reading your semi constructed journal entries if you know what I mean.
--- 21916037
>>21913573 (OP)
“Cancer sticks” is cringe. I felt like I was reading cyberpunk too btw. Maybe that’s what you’re going for though so just an observation:
--- 21916421
>>21916037
I use cyberpunk-ish aesthetics as a backdrop for my themes. But I absolutely not writing boilerplate cyberpunk. 

>>21916020

Good advice, thanks. Fluidity is something I struggle with. But I've devoted the summer to re-reading GR, so I hope to get something good in terms of general lyrical prose out of it

I guess my difficulty lies in the synthesis of free-flowing prose and my own internal themes. Hopefully some intense summer reading can enlighten me. 

>>21915969
For myself. But the audience I'm going for are more literary types. No genre. As for the allusions, I know they are abstract, cryptic and vague. I suppose it's half because I'd rather have character interaction make sense of them, especially upon re-reads, and partly because I struggle sometimes contextualizing the extremely vivid, yet abstract emotions that I have in my head.
--- 21916438
>>21913573 (OP)
You write well enough. Your style is a bit old fashioned, but I like it and I wish more people still wrote like that
--- 21916472
>>21913573 (OP)
Don't know much about the plot, but judging from the excerpt, it looks pretty good. It's something that I will read. I think you're probably good enough to start being careful of what criticism to take in. There're people who will criticize your work not because of your craft but rather it simply doesn't suit their taste. If you take in those advices, you might risk losing your own style. So be careful, especially around here. Good luck anon.
--- 21916486
>>21916472
I will echo this: take in criticism that helps you write better, not criticism that helps you write differently. Some of the feedback on sounding less mechanical COULD be good provided that is something you internally want to improve on. Don't listen to anyone who gives you one-line responses, uses buzzwords, replies in reaction images while quoting your work, etc. It's not too hard to separate genuine feedback from shitposts because, frankly, most people on /lit/ aren't intelligent enough to insidiously derail you; they are just insecure and want you to share their suffering.
--- 21916534
>>21916438
Thank you. I'm a big fanatic of 19th century Russian lit (Anna K is my favorite book of all time) and the Bronte sisters, so I guess it's rubbed off on me. I've been making my way into modernism more, especially with Pynchon. Hopefully I can blend the jazziness of his prose with the more old fashioned stuff. 

>>21916486
Good advice. I'm so disillusioned with feedback because every writing circle online has just been Sanderson echo chambers and genrefic guys who only want plot and if anything gets in the way of it they become hostile and tell me that they would DNF the book etc. Makes me fear publishing. 

When does "someone's style" start to hinder their work, objectively? As much as I love Anna K for example, I get why some people dislike the narrative distance between the characters and the narrator, and the agricultural digressions. But sometimes the book is more than the sum of its parts, and I find that I struggle with maintaining that suspension of disbelief with other readers. 

Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
--- 21916548
>>21916534
Only you can decide whether you want to write purely in a way that expresses your soul or whether you are willing to compromise on that in order for an ostensibly greater likelihood of commercial success.

My recommendation would be to write in the way that makes you feel most fulfilled. You can always reshape things after they have already been built. Send your work in to a professional publisher/editor, though -- don't change anything based on the feedback of strangers', ESPECIALLY in circumstances where they are aggressive or hostile.
--- 21916564
>>21916548
I assume I'd start with agents. Publishers don't accept unsolicited material. Hopefully an exuberant word count doesn't turn them off.
--- 21916791
>>21914395
>>21913573 (OP)
I recognise the prose from another thread you did. Man its clear you have talent with your writing and style:

OK first, as someone else pointed out the first two sentences are just confusing as fucked and need to be swapped, or at least rephrased. I know what youre trying to do with them but style is pointless if it takes the reader 4 go-overs to understand that the first two sentences are referring to the same person.

Second: the text is dense with alliterative allusions to cool-sounding sci-fi things we know nothing about (which can be fine) like 'cancersticks', 'ultramandarin vendors' 'tencent faux' and honestly 'Spice had allured her more than the raw pleasures of careful-cut culinary known to the great metropolis, ripe with boutiques that held the vibes of preteen jewelry shops than urban haute confectionaries' either doesnt make sense or what its referring to is really specific sci-fi shit. This can work, as it does in most sci-fi, by slowly drip-feeding explanations and descriptions until the reader has an incredibly vivid understanding of the fictional world. in fact that is part of the appeal. However, it makes it hard to give a proper assessment on only small extracts alone. What I could maybe suggest is somewhat toning down the first chapter down, so that the reader doesnt give up in the first chapter, but enough to intrigue them into the world.

Other things like the, lets just say, unique similies/metaphors is a matter of style and im honestly not well-read enough in post-modern/modern literature to have a fair opinion. have you written any short stories? I would like to see them

tldr; you do yourself no favours posting small extracts
--- 21916954
>>21916791
Alright, here. This is from another piece I am working on, in the same universe. It's unfinished, but it's nearly 20 pages and has a better sense of scale and flow. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BGmtZzCcsi8Nk2xMqS1dpybqRhI_lncYHjyDtucOt6I/edit?usp=sharing
--- 21917007
>>21916954
I should also add that this is about half of the story, and the full thing had been sent out to a few literary journals, one of which I have a good feeling will get published in. 

Not gonna post the whole thing for obvious reasons.
--- 21917040
>>21916954
Wow, this is really good. Like fantastic. I teach creative writing at college, and, including the time I was getting my MFA, every above-average intelligence white guy tries to do the faux-Pynchon thing. So when I read your OP I rolled my eyes so hard. Those guys never get published because no one wants to read a shitty Pynchon. But this is really good, really original voice. Follow this, OP. I only say this because there’s a spark of talent here. You’ll never be as good a Pynchon as Pynchon, but no one will ever be as good a You as you.
--- 21917080
>>21917040
Actually smiled at this comment, like a mf schoolgirl. Thank you
--- 21917122
>>21913573 (OP)
Here are my critiques:
>she
 And who might that be lmao? I know this is suppose to be an excerpt, but additional context would be helpful

> Long streaks of white clawed at the sky, like the marks on her skin that she wished weren't hers.
Not sure what this is suppose to add to the setting? I like some of the descriptions you’ve made — such as “concrete canopies”, “haute confectioneries” — but some of the descriptions can come across as fluff. Also, what are these “marks” and how does that relate to the immediate context?

>Illegally sourced ultramandarin vendors
Not sure what this means. There is quite a bit of unclear jargon in this story. Maybe it makes more sense outside of this excerpt. 

Tell me what is the overall premise of the story? So far, it’s promising: you certain know how to set the atmosphere of a story, but I think there is bit too much fluff and over descriptions in this excerpt
--- 21917135
>>21917122
You will find out later, again, I posted a dumb small paragraph, without much exposition, so it makes sense later. That's my fault. 

Self harm scars. Also, "wished they weren't hers" also refers to love marks from nails during sex. 

Ultramandarin is explained later as a psychocombative drug used recreationally. 

Very long premise, not sure how to explain it simply or if I should explain it via plot or story/themes
--- 21917207
>>21916954
yeah that's great. the first paragraphs in your novel should be more like that. It could maybe work if you already had a Joyce-esque acclaim, then you can can say "fuck it" to the casuals from the very start, but you dont. im >>21916791
--- 21917363
>>21915832
Sneed don't feed
--- 21917704
It's good. You have certain weaknesses but it may not be possible to eliminate them without also losing some of your strengths. I would say, try to alternate the tortuous poetic prose with shorter, easily digested sentences. Think of how Milton will have very simple Germanic English after a Latinate passage. But then, maybe the all-encompassing weirdness is good, would work out over an entire book.
--- 21917944
>>21913573 (OP)

A big part of the problem is that you are jumping from line to line without any coherent connection. It feels very disjointed, like random sentences that have just been thrown together, sentences that are only there because you think they are pretty. In reality they are purple verging on the incomprehensible.

"careful-cut culinary?"
"mininal translucentries?"
"innocence of angst and flavor?"
--- 21918346
>>21913573 (OP)
you are using odd metaphors and older terms/words combined with a flow and style which is both inconsistent and not very good, which just makes the whole thing sound very pretentious and boring
--- 21918386
>>21913573 (OP)
If your prose were any purpler it would be the Emperor of Rome
--- 21919188
>>21913573 (OP)
Did you intend to write "megapolis" instead of "megalopolis"? What about the non-plural "fisherman" in the first sentence — is that not supposed to be the plural fishermen?
--- 21919309
>>21919188
> is that not supposed to be the plural fishermen?
I assumed it's supposed to refer to a specific person, who's identity we aren't familiar yet with.
--- 21919345
>>21913573 (OP)
>>21913573 (OP)
>At eleven she started smoking cloves after she heard it was en vogue in the Orient among fish mongers. Cho's eldest daughter stood there under the concrete canopy having absolutely no business knowing the fads of Celestial longshoremen. The spice itself held more allure for her than the raw pleasure of careful cut tabak the great megapolis was known for, ripe with a bouquet of preteen costume jewlers more so than haute urbaniste confectionaries - an odd synthesis, to eat with bamboo rods knife slivered sashimi atop pink plushmallows, minimalistic translucency bleed-throughs in the bizarrely thick glass walls of the haunt for borderline personalities. 
>--FUCK
>She had been queued for what seemed an eternity after being directed tomake a reservation with the slattern of a hostess. 

Readable automatic writing cyperpunk Gibson-Burroughs type shit needs rhythm and space to breath the 'maximalism', so don't skimp on the (sur)realism particularities. 

For editorial passes: 1/5th to 1/3rd fewer word count, half or less the punctuation marks (especially commas). Then see how you have to approach what you've presented yourself to fit the constraints. Tighten it up, chase polysemy and phonosemantic counterpoint.
--- 21919362
>>21918346
this. no cultural significance to be had. whole lotta nothing
--- 21919416
>>21914133
>
--- 21920822
>>21913573 (OP)
>concrete canopies
Unless this is fantisy, there is no concrete canopies in the world. Canopies block out the sky, skyscrapers/commieblocks are never wider at the top than at the bottom
>raw pleasures
bromide
>careful-cut culinary known to the great megapolis, ripe with boutiques that held the vibes of preteen jewelry shops than urban haute confectionaries.
the worst possible way to say "she liked spice more than fancy food"
>She had been waiting to go in for a time,
could be mystery, but it is the first page, so please tell me where she is and what she is waiting to go in. also, for a time is way too generic for how specific you just were
>And her pack was low.
empty not low
>So the thought of smoking pure tobacco made her gag.
why did she think this. She smokes clove cigs, does she have a pack of normal cigs just to be disgusted at and never use? 
>lengthened like a maudlin confession.
bad simile
>like the marks on her skin that she wished weren't hers.
too many similes in a row, just say it reminded her of her skin. Instead of "wished weren't hers" say regretted.
>It had everything a fifteen year old girl could ask for.
so the rest of the 15 year olds are simalor to protag? they all hang out here and like cigs and twin gods etc?
>and other substances
either name the substances or just delete this
>the brightest of chemicals
chemicals are not bright, unless she is smoking sulphur and yellow cake.
>concrete maze,
she is outside and on a street, how is a street also a maze. 
>three came forth
its not 1822
>great cloud of smoke.
bad and vague adjective.

overall, 2/10
--- 21921113
>>21920822
>Unless this is fantisy, there is no concrete canopies in the world.
a concrete canopy is apparently a specific architectural feature. I did not know this.

>Instead of "wished weren't hers" say regretted.
well "wished weren't hers" means something different than "regretted." Use of "regretted" would imply some kind of mature retrospection—and maybe the character is just a dumb bitch—uh, I mean still has some growing to do.

>empty not low
what if the pack is almost empty, hence low?

>how is a street also a maze
streets can be confusing, sprawling, and same-y like a maze. We call this a metaphor.

I give OP a 3/10 and your critique a 3/5
--- 21921196
>>21920822
Concrete canopies exist

Raw pleasure is self explanatory

Stating shit simply isn't fun, minimalism is gay as hell

Valid

She's an addict, has them as back up. Not very hard to understand, you're just being autistic and finding semantics

Not an argument

Already explained this above

Her friend group, given how she's a sort of street rat, yeah. But also, it's ironic. Crazy how you couldn't piece that together

Dont need to, it's not nonfiction

Well in this case they are, especially given how you can contextualize the descriptions of drugs I.e. Ultramandarin and the others. Have an imagination.

Niggas never been in a city before

Nigga doesn't read anything but YA

Lame opinion, that is invalidated by the resentful autism you've displayed.

1/10
--- 21921228
>>21921196
I don’t care about that other anons critique or the story really, but

>She's an addict, has them as back up
Wouldn’t she just have another pack of cloves instead of a pack of regulars?
--- 21921256
>>21921113
at least i didnt loose

As for low vs empty, if it was low she could smoke one and should say low on not just low. The pack isn't low, the contents are. 
also im 99% sure the street will not prove to be maze like at all and that nobody will get lost or confused. Streets are also laid out in a grid or other pattern, unlike a maze. Unless this is rome in 100bc its probably not going to be maze like. 

>>21921196
raw pleasure is over used. Nobody will really think about what raw+pleasure will mean. Raw pleasure has become a phrase in itself. All words are self explanatory
minimalism may be gay as hell, but so is purple prose
why would she have normal cigs as a back up, just buy more clove cigs. I don't buy almond milk if I am worried about running out of milk
in "everything... could ask for", the author seems to be third person omniscient, so why is it snarky. 
you don't need to name the substances, but "other substances" is just a waste of paper. It literally means nothing.
using came forth is fine, but there should be consistency. 
The cloud is not really great, nobody will ever remember it, and it seems like nobody likes it
--- 21921333
>>21921228
No, one of her friends gets them imported from her, probably should've included that in the screenshot
--- 21921355
>>21913573 (OP)
You definitely have talent. I noticed a lot of problems, but I did come away wanting to read more which I think is the most important thing.

On to the critique. Grammar and word choice is very poor at times. Normally not a big deal, it just needs editing, but it's clear that you have tried to polish these paragraphs so it's a big red flag that there are errors.

> the raw pleasures of careful-cut culinary
culinary is an adjective with no noun. consider "culinary x" with x being an appropriate noun. If you want to be more daring and agrammatical at least consider "culinaries" (not a real word)

> held the vibes
it should be "had the vibes." I won't explain this one but it should be obvious

>knifethin sashimi, atop pink plushmallows
"knife-thin" Also, when i first read, I thought the sashimi was on the plushmallows. so reorder for clarity

Paragraphs 2 and 3 are better in terms of grammar, but there is still a lack of clarity in the transition. Suddenly we have jumped from when she started smoking to the present moment.

Overall, not bad, my specific advice would be to write without worrying too much about the style and the prose too much. Get your ideas down in plain English and figure out how to make it pretty later.
--- 21921371
>>21921355
I wasn't going to say anything about the grammar, but since this anon went through some I'll just say the first verb in the first sentence is the wrong tense. Just something to look out for OP.
--- 21921397
lost me at the first sentence
--- 21921519
>>21920822
>t. Autist
--- 21921527
>>21921355
Not OP, but that’s solid advice. I’m writing lore for my vidya game, and I could use writing advice since I’m mainly a tech-oriented person
--- 21921564
>>21921519
would you rather have a harry potter fan critique it?