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Summarize the team's discussion and decision on the energy source of the remote. Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first? Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now. Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off? Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap} Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply. Marketing: Yes. Exactly. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: So we can go to next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean. Project Manager: Right. Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend, Project Manager: Right. Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months, Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker} Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now. Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation. Marketing: Okay. Awesome. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it. Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide? Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Op mm'kay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready? User Interface: Okay hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Which one is it? User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Interface concepts, no? Project Manager: Interface concepts new. User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Y User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other. Project Manager: Sorry? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over. Project Manager: Oh okay. User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}. Project Manager: Oh there we go. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide. Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children. Marketing: That's cute. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this. Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Right. Marketing: I have four of those remotes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay. User Interface: That's it. Project Manager: Great job. Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: Whoo. Project Manager: What's the title? Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design. Project Manager: Got it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So next slide, please. Project Manager: Interesting. Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood. Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker} Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium. Marketing: What is that? Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves. User Interface: Right. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide. Project Manager: No, okay. Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Right. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Alright, Industrial Designer: And that's all I got. Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we? User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before, Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um. Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier. User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this. Project Manager: Right. Right. Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options. User Interface: Right, Marketing: So that way the remote reads it. User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say. Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Programme. Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip. Marketing: Technology. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway. Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the better it'll sell. Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost. Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier? Marketing: Oh the base, yeah. Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries? Industrial Designer: I think the p User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_. Marketing: W Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote. User Interface: Right. Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this, Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes. User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons. Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever, User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier? Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that. Industrial Designer: That's true. Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker} User Interface: So i That's the other thing, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period? Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size. User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size. Marketing: Right. Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker} Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: So we sh Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker} Project Manager: A battery like this guy. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced. Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: I'm a away from the base. Project Manager: bigger and the base. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is, User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: yeah {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash. User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens. Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt. Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of? Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option. Marketing: Yeah wood. Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, titanium s Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead. User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that. Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: However, Project Manager: What would you recommend? Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium, User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak. User Interface: The selling point, yeah. Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Are we restricted by this? Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker} User Interface: Twenty five Euros Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan. Marketing: Good plan. Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials? Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex, Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so, Marketing: Oh. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why, User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, who knows. Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it? Marketing: O or we could like take off this. Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe, Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case. Project Manager: if they wanted. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options. Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Okay. Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic. Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy? Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker} User Interface: A tracker, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like, Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing. Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech. User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work. Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me. User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off. Project Manager: Oh dear. Marketing: Oh, User Interface: So it became highly irritating. Marketing: then maybe voice Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better. Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good. Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right? Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder. Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: But then it {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, alright. User Interface: Hmm. Okay. Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Oh, brilliant then. Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way? Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Yeah, good point. Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_? Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter. Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker} Marketing: I mean more more come in a package. User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries. Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too. Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years. Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody? Marketing: That's a good point. User Interface: As long as we sell it with it. Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it, User Interface: Right, that's what I meant. Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk. Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: We still have one more meeting. Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design. User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like. Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial, User Interface: Um. Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle. Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Oh, that's true. User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it? Marketing: Good point. Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean. Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful. Project Manager: I think so. Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top? Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay. Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker} Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down. User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap} Industrial Designer: Volume or channel. User Interface: Which? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know. Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides. User Interface: Do we have both sides? Project Manager: Can we? Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then, Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know. Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy. User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side. Marketing: {gap} have buttons. Project Manager: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that. Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas? User Interface: Um what colour? Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available. User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers, User Interface: Which button? Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea. Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: They're not titanium. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: What are your thoughts? Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey, Project Manager: Gun-metal gray. Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black. Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button. Project Manager: Why? Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound} User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: On the back? User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker} Marketing: But we want it to be seen. Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker} User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it. Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker} Marketing: We need it to be seen. Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery. User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker} Project Manager: I can find it again. User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide. Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept? User Interface: Interface, yeah. Project Manager: This one? User Interface: Yeah. Um. Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top. Project Manager: Mm User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in. Project Manager: Okay, yes User Interface: If c you envisioning it? Project Manager: yes. User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons, User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened. Marketing: Right. User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones? Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow. User Interface: Yellow. Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons. User Interface: Oh, that one. Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker} User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before? Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right? User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh. User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting. Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh.

User Interface pointed out that if the remote was small, it would not go well with a base. The team then decided on a single smaller remote instead of a bigger one with a base, and a locating device would sufficiently prevent the remote from being lost. In terms of the battery, Industrial Designer suggested one small lithium battery instead of double A's or triple A's. An initial lithium battery could be sold with the remote, while subsequent replacements would be bought separately. With this suggestion in mind, the team decided to come back to it in the next meeting.

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How did the team decide against a base for the remote? Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first? Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now. Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off? Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap} Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply. Marketing: Yes. Exactly. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: So we can go to next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean. Project Manager: Right. Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend, Project Manager: Right. Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months, Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker} Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now. Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation. Marketing: Okay. Awesome. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it. Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide? Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Op mm'kay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready? User Interface: Okay hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Which one is it? User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Interface concepts, no? Project Manager: Interface concepts new. User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Y User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other. Project Manager: Sorry? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over. Project Manager: Oh okay. User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}. Project Manager: Oh there we go. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide. Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children. Marketing: That's cute. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this. Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Right. Marketing: I have four of those remotes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay. User Interface: That's it. Project Manager: Great job. Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: Whoo. Project Manager: What's the title? Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design. Project Manager: Got it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So next slide, please. Project Manager: Interesting. Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood. Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker} Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium. Marketing: What is that? Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves. User Interface: Right. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide. Project Manager: No, okay. Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Right. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Alright, Industrial Designer: And that's all I got. Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we? User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before, Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um. Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier. User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this. Project Manager: Right. Right. Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options. User Interface: Right, Marketing: So that way the remote reads it. User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say. Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Programme. Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip. Marketing: Technology. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway. Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the better it'll sell. Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost. Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier? Marketing: Oh the base, yeah. Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries? Industrial Designer: I think the p User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_. Marketing: W Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote. User Interface: Right. Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this, Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes. User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons. Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever, User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier? Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that. Industrial Designer: That's true. Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker} User Interface: So i That's the other thing, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period? Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size. User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size. Marketing: Right. Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker} Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: So we sh Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker} Project Manager: A battery like this guy. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced. Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: I'm a away from the base. Project Manager: bigger and the base. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is, User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: yeah {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash. User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens. Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt. Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of? Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option. Marketing: Yeah wood. Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, titanium s Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead. User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that. Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: However, Project Manager: What would you recommend? Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium, User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak. User Interface: The selling point, yeah. Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Are we restricted by this? Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker} User Interface: Twenty five Euros Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan. Marketing: Good plan. Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials? Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex, Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so, Marketing: Oh. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why, User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, who knows. Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it? Marketing: O or we could like take off this. Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe, Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case. Project Manager: if they wanted. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options. Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Okay. Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic. Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy? Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker} User Interface: A tracker, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like, Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing. Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech. User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work. Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me. User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off. Project Manager: Oh dear. Marketing: Oh, User Interface: So it became highly irritating. Marketing: then maybe voice Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better. Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good. Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right? Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder. Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: But then it {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, alright. User Interface: Hmm. Okay. Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Oh, brilliant then. Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way? Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Yeah, good point. Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_? Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter. Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker} Marketing: I mean more more come in a package. User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries. Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too. Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years. Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody? Marketing: That's a good point. User Interface: As long as we sell it with it. Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it, User Interface: Right, that's what I meant. Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk. Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: We still have one more meeting. Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design. User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like. Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial, User Interface: Um. Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle. Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Oh, that's true. User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it? Marketing: Good point. Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean. Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful. Project Manager: I think so. Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top? Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay. Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker} Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down. User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap} Industrial Designer: Volume or channel. User Interface: Which? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know. Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides. User Interface: Do we have both sides? Project Manager: Can we? Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then, Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know. Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy. User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side. Marketing: {gap} have buttons. Project Manager: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that. Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas? User Interface: Um what colour? Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available. User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers, User Interface: Which button? Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea. Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: They're not titanium. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: What are your thoughts? Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey, Project Manager: Gun-metal gray. Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black. Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button. Project Manager: Why? Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound} User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: On the back? User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker} Marketing: But we want it to be seen. Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker} User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it. Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker} Marketing: We need it to be seen. Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery. User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker} Project Manager: I can find it again. User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide. Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept? User Interface: Interface, yeah. Project Manager: This one? User Interface: Yeah. Um. Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top. Project Manager: Mm User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in. Project Manager: Okay, yes User Interface: If c you envisioning it? Project Manager: yes. User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons, User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened. Marketing: Right. User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones? Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow. User Interface: Yellow. Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons. User Interface: Oh, that one. Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker} User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before? Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right? User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh. User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting. Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh.

It was first suggested by User Interface that a charging base would not go well with a small remote. The team agreed on this, and Project Manager reminded them the remote was not going to be a huge one. User Interface worried that a small remote without a base could be more easily lost, but Marketing reassured the team that this wouldn't be a problem if the remote had a locating device. Each team member then gave his/her opinion on the issue, all preferring a smaller remote without a base.

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What points did the team mention about lithium batteries when discussing the energy source for the remote? Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first? Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now. Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off? Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap} Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply. Marketing: Yes. Exactly. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: So we can go to next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean. Project Manager: Right. Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend, Project Manager: Right. Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months, Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker} Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now. Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation. Marketing: Okay. Awesome. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it. Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide? Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Op mm'kay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready? User Interface: Okay hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Which one is it? User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Interface concepts, no? Project Manager: Interface concepts new. User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Y User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other. Project Manager: Sorry? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over. Project Manager: Oh okay. User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}. Project Manager: Oh there we go. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide. Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children. Marketing: That's cute. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this. Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Right. Marketing: I have four of those remotes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay. User Interface: That's it. Project Manager: Great job. Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: Whoo. Project Manager: What's the title? Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design. Project Manager: Got it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So next slide, please. Project Manager: Interesting. Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood. Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker} Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium. Marketing: What is that? Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves. User Interface: Right. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide. Project Manager: No, okay. Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Right. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Alright, Industrial Designer: And that's all I got. Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we? User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before, Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um. Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier. User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this. Project Manager: Right. Right. Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options. User Interface: Right, Marketing: So that way the remote reads it. User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say. Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Programme. Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip. Marketing: Technology. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway. Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the better it'll sell. Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost. Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier? Marketing: Oh the base, yeah. Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries? Industrial Designer: I think the p User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_. Marketing: W Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote. User Interface: Right. Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this, Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes. User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons. Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever, User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier? Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that. Industrial Designer: That's true. Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker} User Interface: So i That's the other thing, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period? Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size. User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size. Marketing: Right. Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker} Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: So we sh Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker} Project Manager: A battery like this guy. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced. Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: I'm a away from the base. Project Manager: bigger and the base. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is, User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: yeah {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash. User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens. Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt. Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of? Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option. Marketing: Yeah wood. Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, titanium s Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead. User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that. Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: However, Project Manager: What would you recommend? Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium, User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak. User Interface: The selling point, yeah. Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Are we restricted by this? Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker} User Interface: Twenty five Euros Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan. Marketing: Good plan. Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials? Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex, Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so, Marketing: Oh. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why, User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, who knows. Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it? Marketing: O or we could like take off this. Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe, Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case. Project Manager: if they wanted. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options. Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Okay. Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic. Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy? Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker} User Interface: A tracker, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like, Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing. Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech. User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work. Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me. User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off. Project Manager: Oh dear. Marketing: Oh, User Interface: So it became highly irritating. Marketing: then maybe voice Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better. Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good. Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right? Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder. Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: But then it {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, alright. User Interface: Hmm. Okay. Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Oh, brilliant then. Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way? Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Yeah, good point. Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_? Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter. Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker} Marketing: I mean more more come in a package. User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries. Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too. Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years. Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody? Marketing: That's a good point. User Interface: As long as we sell it with it. Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it, User Interface: Right, that's what I meant. Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk. Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: We still have one more meeting. Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design. User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like. Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial, User Interface: Um. Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle. Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Oh, that's true. User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it? Marketing: Good point. Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean. Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful. Project Manager: I think so. Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top? Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay. Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker} Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down. User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap} Industrial Designer: Volume or channel. User Interface: Which? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know. Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides. User Interface: Do we have both sides? Project Manager: Can we? Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then, Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know. Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy. User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side. Marketing: {gap} have buttons. Project Manager: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that. Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas? User Interface: Um what colour? Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available. User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers, User Interface: Which button? Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea. Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: They're not titanium. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: What are your thoughts? Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey, Project Manager: Gun-metal gray. Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black. Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button. Project Manager: Why? Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound} User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: On the back? User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker} Marketing: But we want it to be seen. Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker} User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it. Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker} Marketing: We need it to be seen. Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery. User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker} Project Manager: I can find it again. User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide. Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept? User Interface: Interface, yeah. Project Manager: This one? User Interface: Yeah. Um. Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top. Project Manager: Mm User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in. Project Manager: Okay, yes User Interface: If c you envisioning it? Project Manager: yes. User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons, User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened. Marketing: Right. User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones? Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow. User Interface: Yellow. Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons. User Interface: Oh, that one. Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker} User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before? Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right? User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh. User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting. Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh.

When first suggesting one small lithium battery for the remote, Industrial Designer pointed out its wide availability and proved success in various electronic products. Project Manager had concerns on it being more expensive, but Industrial Designer said the final cost could be levelled down by its longer battery life. The bulk price for lithium batteries would also be fairly cheap. As for how to realize this design in the sales, Industrial Designer suggested providing one initial lithium battery along with the remote, while replacements would be sold separately.

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Summarize the team's discussion and decision on the user interface concept of the remote. Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first? Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now. Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off? Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap} Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply. Marketing: Yes. Exactly. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: So we can go to next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean. Project Manager: Right. Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend, Project Manager: Right. Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months, Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker} Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now. Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation. Marketing: Okay. Awesome. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it. Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide? Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Op mm'kay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready? User Interface: Okay hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Which one is it? User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Interface concepts, no? Project Manager: Interface concepts new. User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Y User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other. Project Manager: Sorry? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over. Project Manager: Oh okay. User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}. Project Manager: Oh there we go. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide. Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children. Marketing: That's cute. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this. Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Right. Marketing: I have four of those remotes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay. User Interface: That's it. Project Manager: Great job. Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: Whoo. Project Manager: What's the title? Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design. Project Manager: Got it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So next slide, please. Project Manager: Interesting. Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood. Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker} Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium. Marketing: What is that? Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves. User Interface: Right. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide. Project Manager: No, okay. Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Right. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Alright, Industrial Designer: And that's all I got. Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we? User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before, Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um. Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier. User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this. Project Manager: Right. Right. Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options. User Interface: Right, Marketing: So that way the remote reads it. User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say. Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Programme. Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip. Marketing: Technology. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway. Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the better it'll sell. Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost. Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier? Marketing: Oh the base, yeah. Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries? Industrial Designer: I think the p User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_. Marketing: W Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote. User Interface: Right. Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this, Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes. User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons. Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever, User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier? Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that. Industrial Designer: That's true. Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker} User Interface: So i That's the other thing, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period? Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size. User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size. Marketing: Right. Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker} Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: So we sh Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker} Project Manager: A battery like this guy. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced. Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: I'm a away from the base. Project Manager: bigger and the base. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is, User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: yeah {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash. User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens. Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt. Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of? Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option. Marketing: Yeah wood. Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, titanium s Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead. User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that. Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: However, Project Manager: What would you recommend? Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium, User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak. User Interface: The selling point, yeah. Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Are we restricted by this? Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker} User Interface: Twenty five Euros Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan. Marketing: Good plan. Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials? Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex, Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so, Marketing: Oh. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why, User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, who knows. Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it? Marketing: O or we could like take off this. Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe, Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case. Project Manager: if they wanted. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options. Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Okay. Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic. Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy? Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker} User Interface: A tracker, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like, Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing. Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech. User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work. Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me. User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off. Project Manager: Oh dear. Marketing: Oh, User Interface: So it became highly irritating. Marketing: then maybe voice Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better. Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good. Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right? Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder. Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: But then it {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, alright. User Interface: Hmm. Okay. Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Oh, brilliant then. Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way? Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Yeah, good point. Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_? Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter. Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker} Marketing: I mean more more come in a package. User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries. Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too. Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years. Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody? Marketing: That's a good point. User Interface: As long as we sell it with it. Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it, User Interface: Right, that's what I meant. Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk. Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: We still have one more meeting. Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design. User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like. Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial, User Interface: Um. Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle. Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Oh, that's true. User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it? Marketing: Good point. Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean. Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful. Project Manager: I think so. Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top? Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay. Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker} Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down. User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap} Industrial Designer: Volume or channel. User Interface: Which? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know. Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides. User Interface: Do we have both sides? Project Manager: Can we? Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then, Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know. Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy. User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side. Marketing: {gap} have buttons. Project Manager: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that. Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas? User Interface: Um what colour? Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available. User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers, User Interface: Which button? Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea. Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: They're not titanium. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: What are your thoughts? Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey, Project Manager: Gun-metal gray. Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black. Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button. Project Manager: Why? Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound} User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: On the back? User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker} Marketing: But we want it to be seen. Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker} User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it. Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker} Marketing: We need it to be seen. Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery. User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker} Project Manager: I can find it again. User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide. Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept? User Interface: Interface, yeah. Project Manager: This one? User Interface: Yeah. Um. Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top. Project Manager: Mm User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in. Project Manager: Okay, yes User Interface: If c you envisioning it? Project Manager: yes. User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons, User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened. Marketing: Right. User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones? Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow. User Interface: Yellow. Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons. User Interface: Oh, that one. Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker} User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before? Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right? User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh. User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting. Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh.

Project Manager liked the phone dial shape with their logo in the middle, but User Interface thought the remote would be too wide or the buttons too small. Despite Industrial Designer's proposal for scrolls, the team decided on buttons on the side instead. For their logo, Project Manager suggested putting it on a major button, but User Interface objected that it would wear off. They finally decided on leaving a space on the latex cover for the logo to be always visible. As for the colour for buttons, their decision was blue-based touch buttons with a yellow illumination.

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When discussing the outer design of the remote, how did User Interface advise against Project Manager's idea of shaping the remote like a retro phone dial? Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first? Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now. Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off? Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap} Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply. Marketing: Yes. Exactly. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: So we can go to next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean. Project Manager: Right. Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend, Project Manager: Right. Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months, Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker} Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now. Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation. Marketing: Okay. Awesome. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it. Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide? Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Op mm'kay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready? User Interface: Okay hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Which one is it? User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Interface concepts, no? Project Manager: Interface concepts new. User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Y User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other. Project Manager: Sorry? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over. Project Manager: Oh okay. User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}. Project Manager: Oh there we go. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide. Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children. Marketing: That's cute. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this. Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Right. Marketing: I have four of those remotes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay. User Interface: That's it. Project Manager: Great job. Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: Whoo. Project Manager: What's the title? Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design. Project Manager: Got it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So next slide, please. Project Manager: Interesting. Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood. Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker} Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium. Marketing: What is that? Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves. User Interface: Right. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide. Project Manager: No, okay. Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Right. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Alright, Industrial Designer: And that's all I got. Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we? User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before, Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um. Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier. User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this. Project Manager: Right. Right. Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options. User Interface: Right, Marketing: So that way the remote reads it. User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say. Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Programme. Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip. Marketing: Technology. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway. Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the better it'll sell. Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost. Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier? Marketing: Oh the base, yeah. Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries? Industrial Designer: I think the p User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_. Marketing: W Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote. User Interface: Right. Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this, Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes. User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons. Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever, User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier? Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that. Industrial Designer: That's true. Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker} User Interface: So i That's the other thing, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period? Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size. User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size. Marketing: Right. Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker} Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: So we sh Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker} Project Manager: A battery like this guy. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced. Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: I'm a away from the base. Project Manager: bigger and the base. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is, User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: yeah {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash. User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens. Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt. Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of? Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option. Marketing: Yeah wood. Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, titanium s Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead. User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that. Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: However, Project Manager: What would you recommend? Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium, User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak. User Interface: The selling point, yeah. Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Are we restricted by this? Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker} User Interface: Twenty five Euros Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan. Marketing: Good plan. Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials? Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex, Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so, Marketing: Oh. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why, User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, who knows. Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it? Marketing: O or we could like take off this. Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe, Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case. Project Manager: if they wanted. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options. Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Okay. Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic. Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy? Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker} User Interface: A tracker, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like, Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing. Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech. User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work. Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me. User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off. Project Manager: Oh dear. Marketing: Oh, User Interface: So it became highly irritating. Marketing: then maybe voice Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better. Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good. Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right? Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder. Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: But then it {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, alright. User Interface: Hmm. Okay. Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Oh, brilliant then. Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way? Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Yeah, good point. Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_? Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter. Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker} Marketing: I mean more more come in a package. User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries. Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too. Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years. Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody? Marketing: That's a good point. User Interface: As long as we sell it with it. Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it, User Interface: Right, that's what I meant. Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk. Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: We still have one more meeting. Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design. User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like. Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial, User Interface: Um. Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle. Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Oh, that's true. User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it? Marketing: Good point. Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean. Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful. Project Manager: I think so. Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top? Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay. Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker} Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down. User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap} Industrial Designer: Volume or channel. User Interface: Which? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know. Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides. User Interface: Do we have both sides? Project Manager: Can we? Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then, Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know. Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy. User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side. Marketing: {gap} have buttons. Project Manager: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that. Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas? User Interface: Um what colour? Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available. User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers, User Interface: Which button? Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea. Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: They're not titanium. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: What are your thoughts? Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey, Project Manager: Gun-metal gray. Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black. Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button. Project Manager: Why? Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound} User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: On the back? User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker} Marketing: But we want it to be seen. Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker} User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it. Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker} Marketing: We need it to be seen. Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery. User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker} Project Manager: I can find it again. User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide. Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept? User Interface: Interface, yeah. Project Manager: This one? User Interface: Yeah. Um. Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top. Project Manager: Mm User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in. Project Manager: Okay, yes User Interface: If c you envisioning it? Project Manager: yes. User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons, User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened. Marketing: Right. User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones? Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow. User Interface: Yellow. Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons. User Interface: Oh, that one. Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker} User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before? Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right? User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh. User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting. Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh.

Project Manager suggested having a large version of the company's logo in the middle of the remote. User Interface pointed out that this design would make the remote too big and wide to fit into one hand. Furthermore, a large logo would take up so much space that the buttons would have to be smaller, and thus they would be less discernible. Project Manager acknowledged that User Interface's argument was reasonable. User Interface then proposed an alternative design, curving the remote like a hand with scroll buttons on the side.

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What did the team decide to do for the logo to remain visible on the remote? Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first? Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now. Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off? Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap} Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply. Marketing: Yes. Exactly. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: So we can go to next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean. Project Manager: Right. Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend, Project Manager: Right. Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months, Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker} Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now. Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation. Marketing: Okay. Awesome. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it. Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide? Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Op mm'kay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready? User Interface: Okay hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Which one is it? User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Interface concepts, no? Project Manager: Interface concepts new. User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Y User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other. Project Manager: Sorry? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over. Project Manager: Oh okay. User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}. Project Manager: Oh there we go. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide. Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children. Marketing: That's cute. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this. Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Right. Marketing: I have four of those remotes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay. User Interface: That's it. Project Manager: Great job. Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: Whoo. Project Manager: What's the title? Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design. Project Manager: Got it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So next slide, please. Project Manager: Interesting. Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood. Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker} Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium. Marketing: What is that? Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves. User Interface: Right. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide. Project Manager: No, okay. Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Right. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Alright, Industrial Designer: And that's all I got. Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we? User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before, Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um. Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier. User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this. Project Manager: Right. Right. Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options. User Interface: Right, Marketing: So that way the remote reads it. User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say. Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Programme. Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip. Marketing: Technology. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway. Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the better it'll sell. Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost. Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier? Marketing: Oh the base, yeah. Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries? Industrial Designer: I think the p User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_. Marketing: W Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote. User Interface: Right. Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this, Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes. User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons. Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever, User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier? Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that. Industrial Designer: That's true. Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker} User Interface: So i That's the other thing, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period? Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size. User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size. Marketing: Right. Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker} Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: So we sh Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker} Project Manager: A battery like this guy. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced. Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: I'm a away from the base. Project Manager: bigger and the base. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is, User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: yeah {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash. User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens. Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt. Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of? Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option. Marketing: Yeah wood. Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, titanium s Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead. User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that. Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: However, Project Manager: What would you recommend? Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium, User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak. User Interface: The selling point, yeah. Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Are we restricted by this? Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker} User Interface: Twenty five Euros Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan. Marketing: Good plan. Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials? Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex, Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so, Marketing: Oh. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why, User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, who knows. Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it? Marketing: O or we could like take off this. Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe, Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case. Project Manager: if they wanted. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options. Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Okay. Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic. Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy? Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker} User Interface: A tracker, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like, Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing. Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech. User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work. Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me. User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off. Project Manager: Oh dear. Marketing: Oh, User Interface: So it became highly irritating. Marketing: then maybe voice Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better. Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good. Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right? Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder. Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: But then it {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, alright. User Interface: Hmm. Okay. Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Oh, brilliant then. Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way? Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Yeah, good point. Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_? Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter. Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker} Marketing: I mean more more come in a package. User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries. Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too. Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years. Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody? Marketing: That's a good point. User Interface: As long as we sell it with it. Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it, User Interface: Right, that's what I meant. Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk. Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: We still have one more meeting. Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design. User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like. Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial, User Interface: Um. Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle. Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Oh, that's true. User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it? Marketing: Good point. Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean. Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful. Project Manager: I think so. Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top? Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay. Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker} Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down. User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap} Industrial Designer: Volume or channel. User Interface: Which? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know. Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides. User Interface: Do we have both sides? Project Manager: Can we? Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then, Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know. Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy. User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side. Marketing: {gap} have buttons. Project Manager: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that. Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas? User Interface: Um what colour? Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available. User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers, User Interface: Which button? Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea. Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: They're not titanium. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: What are your thoughts? Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey, Project Manager: Gun-metal gray. Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black. Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button. Project Manager: Why? Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound} User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: On the back? User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker} Marketing: But we want it to be seen. Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker} User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it. Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker} Marketing: We need it to be seen. Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery. User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker} Project Manager: I can find it again. User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide. Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept? User Interface: Interface, yeah. Project Manager: This one? User Interface: Yeah. Um. Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top. Project Manager: Mm User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in. Project Manager: Okay, yes User Interface: If c you envisioning it? Project Manager: yes. User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons, User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened. Marketing: Right. User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones? Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow. User Interface: Yellow. Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons. User Interface: Oh, that one. Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker} User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before? Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right? User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh. User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting. Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh.

For the logo to remain despite latex cover changes, Project Manager proposed to print it on a button. Yet User Interface opposed this idea for fear that the print would wear off. Industrial Designer suggested putting the logo on the back of the remote, but this option was ruled out since the logo must be always visible. User Interface presented another option where the remote would consist of two pieces, but this too was incompatible with the cover design. Finally, Industrial Designer suggested leaving a cut-out space on latex covers to show the logo, and all agreed on this design.

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Summarize the whole meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Hi Team. Hope you had a good lunch. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting. Um let's get started.'Kay, here is the agenda for today's meeting. Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager. We're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you again. And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up. And we have forty minutes again.'Kay, and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control. Okay. Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations. Who would like to go first? Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now. Project Manager: Okay. Um Courtney would you mind starting us off? Marketing: Yeah {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. Trend watching?'Kay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, so trend watching. Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics, it is kind of important how our product looks. So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next. So what they want. Right now customers want fancy versus functional. Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want, describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want, fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like, fancy versus functional, and then it has to also be technologically innovative, and yet easy to use. So the customer basically is confused. They don't know exactly what they want. They want us to tell them. {gap} Industrial Designer: They want everything, but simply. Marketing: Yes. Exactly. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: So we can go to next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Okay. So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing, shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year. I don't know really, I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to Project Manager: Mm. Mm. Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff, you'd want like a softer touch. I mean do you guys know what I mean. Project Manager: Right. Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th Marketing: Yeah. Um. But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns, I don't know if we really want to go with that, because it is just a trend, Project Manager: Right. Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months, Project Manager: Right. People don't buy a new remote every so often. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker} Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah. I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now. Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue, I think, with uh my presentation. Marketing: Okay. Awesome. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: Um so design preferences, um we need easy to read like large buttons, clearly labelled so that, I mean'cause we talked about that being a problem. Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch, you said that in your design, with the bulb. Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme. Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously. That's one of our key goals, we wanna promote our product. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something. Actually right here. So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this, where we put the buttons around, like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle, I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down, and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape.'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool. So it's classically retro. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it. Project Manager: Very good. I like it. {vocalsound} Okay, ready for the next slide? Marketing: {vocalsound} And, yep. And that's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Op mm'kay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Project Manager: Great. Great presentation. Ready? User Interface: Okay hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: See if it's there. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Which one is it? User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know. Hang on. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Interface concepts, no? Project Manager: Interface concepts new. User Interface: Either refresh it, or it sh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Y User Interface: Oh wait, maybe I didn't put it there. Hang on. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other. Project Manager: Sorry? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over. Project Manager: Oh okay. User Interface: Sorry, hang on. Don't know {gap}. Project Manager: Oh there we go. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Okay, um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept, it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this. Uh if you wanna start the next slide. Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: Um uh can't really see, but there's two possible ways, on the r left, if you see on th on the sides of of the remote, you have the sort of scroll down, so you have that option right there. And then also there's the idea of the base. That's sort of like an idea there. And then on the right, we have what's really big trend right now, it's the iPod. It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons, and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip, but also very sleek and um and very simple, but technologically advanced. So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it, but {disfmarker} Anyway, next. Project Manager: Mm'kay. User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight. You'd you know you're in the dark, you don't wanna be looking at the remote control. And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_, and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up. What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down, because the down arrow. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up. Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type, which could be you know, iffy, um sort of old-fashioned in a way. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape, for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow. And then the round ones you sort of feel by, you know, that's the second one down, that sort of thing. So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic. Um this is particularly geared towards children. Marketing: That's cute. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Um it's very cute, and we could probably change it to yellow, bright yellow for like a the for the company logo. Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking. Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch, so it's like they ch watch, you know, the C_ Beebies or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels. So that's like another ar Um, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: I mean, these are three examples sort of looking at it. You have the wider section for the main controls there. Uh you could see how many buttons there are. And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons, and a simpler design. On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that, because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using. Um. So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_, Real Reaction. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples, but also some more, just possibilities that we could go with. None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying, well out of this one we like, you know the round section of um, b or we'd like the the button size on this. Project Manager: Mm. Or I like, you know, the black finish or the silver finish or whatever. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Right. Marketing: I have four of those remotes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Ready? Oh, yeah. Okay. User Interface: That's it. Project Manager: Great job. Industrial Designer: Okay, my turn. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: Whoo. Project Manager: What's the title? Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design. Project Manager: Got it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Th that looks like it.'Kay. So basic remote operation runs as follows, press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit, chip senses the connection, chip produces a morse code infra-red signal, specific to that button. So you press the button, it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button. Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre, which interprets the signal response accordingly, changes channel etcetera. So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide, please. Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction, so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed, we need rubber for buttons, aluminium for battery y contacts, integrated circuit which consists of a diode, transistor, resonator, resistors, and a capacitator, all those basic things that make a circuit function. Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself. An L_E_D_, which is a light emitting diode, um contact discs for the buttons, plastic for the casing, and a power-source, whatever power-source we've actually determined we want. Next slide, please. Thank you. Uh personal preferences, uh to save money for the components, the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse. Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips, casing, L_E_D_, any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing, we should go for it. {vocalsound} Next slide, please. Um just talking to the um manufacturing division. They suggested power options, solar cells, hand dynamo, and kinetic power, so you shake it and it increases the power. Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works, they have yet to get back to me on that. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So next slide, please. Project Manager: Interesting. Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options. Okay. We can offer options for casing such as straight, curved, double-curved, you know, very specific to the customer. Options for materials, plastic, rubber, titanium, wood. Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one, because splinters {disfmarker} Marketing: That would be amazing, though, yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Marketing: No, splinters would {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though. Uh latex, you can't do solar power with a latex one. So, if they want some a soft squishy rubber, they can't have the solar powered option. Double-curved, you can't do titanium. Marketing: What is that? Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures, so it would actually, if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand, you curve here and you curve here, so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that, you can't do titanium. And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons, scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves. User Interface: Right. Project Manager:'Kay. Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide. Project Manager: No, okay. Industrial Designer: No, I didn't. Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip, which we could utilise. Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip. So depends on what we decide we wanna do. In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote, we're going to have to have multiples of each type, like a double-curved in rubber, um you know, each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options. So we'll have to mix it up, make sure we produce enough of everyone. But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand, you know, double-curved wooden remotes. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Right. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Alright, Industrial Designer: And that's all I got. Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations. Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions. Where were we? User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before, Project Manager: Sure. User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition. Um. Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier. User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd, and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are, um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So, you would say like, good morning, coffeemaker, and it would respond, good morning, Jill, Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work,'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions. So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question, and can't change it in order for it to be recognised, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way, or does the actually user program it, to say a channel means this. Project Manager: Right. Right. Marketing: Yeah, like using the menu to be like, enter your name into the screen like on the menu options. User Interface: Right, Marketing: So that way the remote reads it. User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it. So it's sort of iffy, Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say. Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be, I don't know, w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Programme. Marketing: I mean we could do it, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would, you know, technology {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, we are making the chip. Marketing: Technology. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So, I mean {disfmarker} But, I guess, we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway. Marketing: And it is a growing trend, the higher technological, like Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the, I mean just like the more advanced it is, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: the better it'll sell. Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different, you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options, maybe. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost. Marketing: Yeah,'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy. {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, that kind of brings us to this, let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost. Um. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier? Marketing: Oh the base, yeah. Project Manager: The base, the charging base with rechargeable batteries? Industrial Designer: I think the p User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like, before {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface:'Cause if it's something really really small, then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it, that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and we don't have multiple things that it has to control, it just has to control the T_V_. Marketing: W Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote. User Interface: Right. Marketing: We need to decide, well so we can figure how big it's gonna be, like exactly what buttons we want Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons, so we want it to be bigger than this, Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this. Yes. User Interface:'cause it still fits in your hand, so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial, but not necessarily full of buttons. Marketing: I'd, well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable, like I like the sides whatever, User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier? Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um, the locator, then we don't have to worry about that. Industrial Designer: That's true. Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator, though, we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip. So {disfmarker} User Interface: So i That's the other thing, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period? Marketing: Two double A_s, for this size. User Interface: But like, you know, if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size. Marketing: Right. Industrial Designer: Honestly, I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small, compact {disfmarker} Project Manager: Right. I agree, it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: So we sh Marketing: Smaller, without {disfmarker} Project Manager: A battery like this guy. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Alright, so what direction do you want to go in? You wanna vote? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one, I think that seems way more advanced. Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: I'm a away from the base. Project Manager: bigger and the base. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer:'Kay so {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now, those trends the smaller the hotter it is, User Interface: Smaller and smaller, yeah, yeah, yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: yeah {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash. User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens. Project Manager: Hmm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ouch. A phone, whoa, that would {disfmarker} wow, that would hurt. Project Manager: Okay, so what kind of material do we want to be made out of? Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere. Well, we have lots of options. I don't think wood is a viable option. Marketing: Yeah wood. Project Manager: No. Oh what did you {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, titanium s Project Manager: Oh sorry, go ahead. User Interface: I was saying that titanium, if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that. Marketing: Yeah,'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip, titanium will be more expensive. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: However, Project Manager: What would you recommend? Industrial Designer: well, we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: right?'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium, User Interface: Yeah. That'll {disfmarker} Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak. User Interface: The selling point, yeah. Marketing: We could do that, because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Are we restricted by this? Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now. I'm Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker} User Interface: Twenty five Euros Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: remotes. If this was a successful remote, we might then produce a higher end version of it, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Good plan. Marketing: Good plan. Project Manager: Okay, so we wanna go for plastic, or what would you recommend for materials? Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power, I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex, Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: because we could produce, you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so, Marketing: Oh. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit, God only knows why, User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, who knows. Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids, you know {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it? Marketing: O or we could like take off this. Project Manager: They could buy cases, maybe, Industrial Designer: They could come back. And buy the extra case. Project Manager: if they wanted. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options. Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic, and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face, right? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Okay. Marketing: Yeah, because the soft latex definitely is squishy. That's in. Well I mean squishier than like, yeah, just a hard plastic. Project Manager: Right. Right. Okay, and what kind of chip would we need for this guy? Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice, I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost, you know. {gap} could we {disfmarker} User Interface: A tracker, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing:'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of, yeah, for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like, Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time. Project Manager: Right. Industrial Designer: Well, we could give it a specific code, you know, remote missing. Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it, because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big, because it's, I don't know, it's just so high-tech. User Interface: Well, my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring, and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work. Industrial Designer: Yeah, see that would just irritate me. User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse, and you couldn't turn it off. Project Manager: Oh dear. Marketing: Oh, User Interface: So it became highly irritating. Marketing: then maybe voice Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better. Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good. Project Manager: Okay. Alright. But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say, channel up, and it would work, right? Marketing: Yeah, n n no, we just want it to be a finder. Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: But then it {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, alright. User Interface: Hmm. Okay. Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Oh, brilliant then. Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well, if they've just developed the sample sensor, sample speaker, it's a brand new chip. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way? Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Yeah, good point. Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries, double A_, triple A_? Marketing: I think triple A_, it'll be lighter. Project Manager: Two? Could it run off of two {disfmarker} Marketing: I mean more more come in a package. User Interface: Well, that depends on what the energy is needed. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I think, well, we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium,'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products, right? So they're more widely available now. And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries. Project Manager: They're more expensive though, too. Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years. Project Manager: Mm. Thoughts anybody? Marketing: That's a good point. User Interface: As long as we sell it with it. Industrial Designer: Well, how about a initial, you get one battery when you buy it, User Interface: Right, that's what I meant. Industrial Designer:'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk. Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: We still have one more meeting. Project Manager: Okay. So we've covered that first category, User Interface Concept, meaning design. User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah, what's it gonna look like. Project Manager: Okay. I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial, User Interface: Um. Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have, maybe our logo on it? It might be the four way scroll, too. I mean if {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, it could be whatever, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle, because like the old phones, there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle. Project Manager: Yeah. Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well, my issue with that is if it got too big though,'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle, then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Oh, that's true. User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it? Marketing: Good point. Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Oh, I see what you mean. Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful. Project Manager: I think so. Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top? Project Manager: Yeah, I like that.'Kay. Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side, we definitely have to have'em labelled. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Well, if it's just up and down {disfmarker} Marketing: like on the side of it. Oh if it's just up and down. User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap} Industrial Designer: Volume or channel. User Interface: Which? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know. Marketing: Well, you could do some on both sides. User Interface: Do we have both sides? Project Manager: Can we? Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then, Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this, you know. Marketing: That's squishy. That's squishy. User Interface: Well, the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side. Marketing: {gap} have buttons. Project Manager: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} that. Project Manager: Hmm.'Kay any other ideas? User Interface: Um what colour? Project Manager: Oh, yeah. Latex covers. W Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on, so we'll have to like have a little square or something, so that the our logo's available. User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that. And that's at the bottom of it. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though, because if people are able to change the covers, User Interface: Which button? Project Manager: I don't know, maybe the on-off button, something, some {disfmarker} the menu button, I don't know, but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one. Are they all gonna have our company logo on them? Every cover? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I don't think we should do that, because that would just be icky. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea. Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking? But those are plastic, right? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: They're not titanium. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I kind of like that look. Uh but, or if it was really {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: For our base one? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, for the base or if we're going for the retro look, I think, like a really shiny black would be cool. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: What are your thoughts? Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey, Project Manager: Gun-metal gray. Marketing:'cause then it combines the silver and the black. Project Manager: There you go, gun-metal gray. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button. Project Manager: Why? Industrial Designer: It'll wear off. {vocalsound} User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, buttons wear off. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Well, w w then what's the button do, and how do you know that that is what the button does? I guess. Just looking at examples, y you just don't ever see the logo on a button, it's always on the actual casing. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: On the back? User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker} Marketing: But we want it to be seen. Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker} User Interface: But uh, yeah, you don't see it. Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker} Marketing: We need it to be seen. Project Manager:'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery. User Interface: Well, hang on. The other option is {vocalsound}, I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker} Project Manager: I can find it again. User Interface: Yeah, it's like the second to last slide. Project Manager: Okay. And yours was called Interface Concept? User Interface: Interface, yeah. Project Manager: This one? User Interface: Yeah. Um. Project Manager: Well, for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, it's the very right one. You see at the bottom, it's kind of difficult to see, but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like, where the logo is, and if we have the replaceable section, it's like the top. It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top. Project Manager: Mm User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in. Project Manager: Okay, yes User Interface: If c you envisioning it? Project Manager: yes. User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo, and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons, User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: That's like, you know, {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened. Marketing: Right. User Interface: And so, what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones? Marketing: Some of tho Well, some of those buttons though are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um well, a lot of those buttons are blue-based. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Well, kind of. Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact, they could illuminate yellow. User Interface: Yellow. Project Manager: Yellow, I like that idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left, uh you ca you can see it on your computer better. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue, but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons. User Interface: Oh, that one. Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea, very good. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Any other ideas or thoughts? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker} User Interface: Um. Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager:'Kay. User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before? Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later. I'm guessing.'Kay, well we're gonna wrap this up. Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes, and here's what we're each of us going to do. The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design, the U_I_D_ the user interface design. I think you're going to get a lot of, I mean, the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it, but I think, that's pretty much what you're gonna do, right? User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I guess.'Kay. And you're gonna do some product evaluation. Okay, and right now, the I_D_ and U_I_D_, you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Great. Play Doh. User Interface: Fun. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, and you should all be getting an email pretty soon. Alright. Well, thank you for a very productive meeting. Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh.

This was the conceptual design meeting for the remote. The first presentation was given by Marketing on trend watching. Marketing pointed out that customers wanted the remote to be technologically innovative and yet simple to use, and that the current fashion trend was fruits and vegetable patterns. Clearly labelled large buttons with the company logo and colour scheme were also preferred. User Interface followed with the presentation on interface concepts, proposing to have a scroll-down design and a distinctly recognizable demographic for specific buttons. Industrial Designer's presentation on component design provided information for the material needed for the remote, and certain restrictions coming with different options. After User Interface's additional thoughts on voice recognition, the team discussed designs of the energy source, the material, and the user interface concept, deciding on latex covers, the gun-metal grey colour, and blue and yellow touch buttons.

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How was the effectiveness of the pupil development grant funding? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Meilyr Rowlands introduced that the grant had been targeted far better by now than it was originally and it was very specific towards the different use of the fund in each aspect of the school day, especially for those students eligible for free school meals. However, Llyr Gruffydd AM questioned that research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods had shown that there was some kind of blurring. Meilyr Rowlands indicated that although schools were not following the exact process, the spirit of PDG was included, which was fair enough.

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What was emphasized on the more able and talented stream? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Meilyr Rowlands introduced that Estyn had always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. More inspections were added to this certain group of students, especially at the relative performance of different groups and different performances of boys and girls. Currently the main strategy was always to identify where there were weaknesses to ensure the overall process of a typical school day.

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What was the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Michelle Brown AM suggested that only two thirds of secondary and primary schools were making effective use of the PDG while the meaning, a third, were still not using that PDG effectively. Meilyr Rowlands regarded this issue of lacking good leadership and suggested improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils would improve the process, especially to engage the learners.

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What did the PDG come into working with families? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Claire Morgan first suggested that in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engaged directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who were under achieving generally. And PDG would be used for appointing staff to these positions to connect the family with the school.

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How did the government plan to spread the method of building connections? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Claire Morgan suggested that the first thing to do was to finish the inspection report, and the government should highlight the practice there. In this way, detailed outcomes of the methods would be listed and would be shared in the conferences where different schools join in it. But Hefin David AM challenged that it was not engaging and Claire Morgan argued that the learning process worthed trying.

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What did the meeting talk about the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Meilyr Rowlands indicated that it was quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG but what was clear was that there had been some improvements by now. Using the same measuring method, in 2017, there was a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. However, currently secondary schools were driven overly by performance indicators and the result turned out to be satisfying, though the exact result still remained unclear.

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What were the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

To answer Mark Reckless AM's question, Meilyr Rowlands explained that any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. Since there had been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews, it would be healthy to have that sort of external view, especially when Estyn aimed at improving the current situation and adopting new changes.

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What were the benefits to Wales of having an independent body for inspecting? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Meilyr Rowlands suggested that it was hard to compare Ofsted and Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland with the decision to have Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales. Different institutions did things slightly differently, but the government had benefited a lot from each one of them. Meilyr Rowlands concluded that the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular supported the whole process in Wales.

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What did the meeting discuss about the lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Darren Millar AM suggested that it had been one of the tough problems that was identified in the past and it was hard to travel the good practice to local authorities, regional consortia, and the Welsh Government efficiently in a short period. Meilyr Rowlands agreed that the problem was highly associated with the foundation phase and training should be included in both a pupil-led learning experience and a teacher-led learning experience, though they shared differences with each other.

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What was the way to get families and the community more involved in education? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

John Griffiths AM suggested that one way was through community-focused schools that were very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. Meilyr Rowlands agreed that it was a good method and the government was delighted to support the remaining schools which still participate in the process in every way. It was concluded that a new mechanism should be added to avoid misunderstanding the role of community-focused schools.

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To what extent had the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

Meilyr Rowlands agreed that indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary did exist. Nearly three quarters of primary schools were doing well and about half of secondary schools were the same. The reason seemed to be there was a widening of gaps when it moved from primary to secondary, but also it was from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. To conclude, Meilyr Rowlands suggested that a whole range of issues should be considered to help explain what had been identified about the gap.

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What did the meeting discuss about the standards in special schools? Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

The government highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, since over 90 per cent of them were good or better. Schools cared for children with emotional and behavioural difficulties were improving and they worked as a team instead of competing with each other. Although the independent special sector over the cycle was slightly different, the overal achievements were significant.

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Summarize the whole meeting. Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting. Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths. Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting. John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector. Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director. Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions--we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals. Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically--a lot of funding is being spent on that--improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring--I think that's the term that they use--in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn't happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn't, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I'm fairly comfortable. There is a specific question--I don't know if you are going to ask this--regarding more able and talented pupils. Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next. Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there's still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don't always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better? Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further? Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask--? Would you look at one area regarding schools'engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the--. Paul Flynn, I think, did the--no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework--looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports. Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports. Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection. Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches. John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership--that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation--that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation. Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region. Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity. Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research--the Sutton Trust toolkit--and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of--the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils--all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools--the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students--are the ones that do that most effectively. Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4--to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term--because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible--what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution. Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week--. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it? Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals? Meilyr Rowlands:'Crisis'is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes. Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4,35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance. Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough. Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention-- Hefin David AM: So, what--? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents. Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like? Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress. Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control. Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms. Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread? Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things--. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also-- Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging. Claire Morgan: Well, it is--. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it. Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students? Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is-- Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing. Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches. Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving--they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it. Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay. Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work. Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent. Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school. Hefin David AM: Okay. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say,'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed--it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome. Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like. John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on. John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase. Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators. Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any--? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging--the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying,'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators. John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point. Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children? Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found--we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are. Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done. Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful-- Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups? Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said--she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned. Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective? Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful. Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant? Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs--some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds. Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children. Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on-- Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation--exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of-- Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think. Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great. John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant--the pupil deprivation grant--principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant? Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate--that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children. Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others. Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details. Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the'PLASS'data--. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the'PLASS'description and what information system that that refers to? Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC--the pupil level annual school census--and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to--. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data. Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not--whether any children are adopted--isn't picked up in the data at the moment. Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it? John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide. Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly. Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree--I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru. Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success? Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made--. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable. Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful? Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea. Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success? Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly. Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia? Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful. Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is. John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11: 30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had? Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations--of literacy and numeracy--moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think--and I'd agree--that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion? Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers--there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system--I'm trying to avoid saying'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole--have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that--all of those aspects need to be changed and improved--but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers--. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes? Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education. Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually--? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector. Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps'revolutionary'is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process. Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms. Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms. Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30,40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at--. One of the problems--. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask,'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform. Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare--I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think--you know, where we're better than another country. Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left. Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this. Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then. Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely--. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils'work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix. Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools--this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers--. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough--well, we say there wasn't enough training--or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver. John Griffiths AM: Darren--is it on this? Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering--. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government--all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen? Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase--I can't remember what it's called now--excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics--a national network for excellence in mathematics--there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase. Mark Reckless AM: When you say that-- John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall--. Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2. Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning--often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark. Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents? Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy. Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice. Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children. Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes. Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools--that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage--I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people--you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists. John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism? Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment--and has been for some time--about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work? Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children--you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well. John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group. Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle. Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors? Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10--nearly three quarters--of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified. Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception? Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage--we haven't got a great deal of time left--if that's okay. Julie. Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools--whether you've got any views on that. Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly--. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector. Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector. Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have--. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well. Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS--that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS--educated other than at school--are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools--that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools. John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr. Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education? Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer. Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the'good'or'better'--as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better--has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges--. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is'good'or'better'in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features. Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors? Simon Brown: But I think one sector that--. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning-- Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there. Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are'good'or'better'in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress--monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies. Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things? Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET--we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there--there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally. John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process? Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level. Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction--from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think. Simon Brown: I'm sorry? Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed. Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up. Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement--in the report. Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities. Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement--is the statement that was made in the report. Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities--. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership--both political and officer-led leadership--and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years. Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was--. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director--. The name of the course is the'Welsh future leaders in education'course and 26 people have just finished that--aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled. Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context--I think that was the statement in the report--in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that--. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together--for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model. Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities--from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge? Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on. Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead? Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go. Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you. John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session.

The meeting between the Children, Young People and Education Committee and the Welsh Government was considered as an evidence session to the continuation of the inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes. The meeting started by discussing thoroughly about the use of pupil development grant funding in different sectors and the meeting believed that PDG would largely cover each aspect of students'rights and support the school services at the same time. Later, the meeting also agreed about the PDG's contribution to special kids and more able and talented streams. The meeting also talked about changes in key positions to ensure smooth adoption of the new curriculum. In the end, several issues regarding different phases of education and connection between different sectors were brought up and currently, they would work out the final stage.

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Summarize the discussion about energy source and components design of remote control. Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry. Industrial Designer: Um p there we go. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up. Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um. Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep. Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much? Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound} Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip. Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed, Project Manager: Right, Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form, Project Manager: okay. Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that? User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick. User Interface: and that w Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit, User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay. Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it? Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah. Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive, Industrial Designer: Yes, as well. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros. Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: uh decide. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts? User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker} Marketing: Would {disfmarker} User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead. Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost. Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project? Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker} Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap} User Interface: Oh yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Hm. User Interface: {gap} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing. Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time. Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm, mm. User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it. Project Manager: Mm, right, okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so. Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh technologically innovative. Project Manager: Right, okay, so. Industrial Designer: No, Project Manager: Fine. Okay. Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm. Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons? User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah. User Interface: I think so. Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No? Industrial Designer: Uh nope, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it. Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra? Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Project Manager: Mm. Oh good. User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work? Project Manager: Mm yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it. Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep. User Interface: Okay. Okay, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual. Project Manager: Mm, yeah. User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here, Project Manager: Uh-huh. User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs, Project Manager: Alright. User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side, Marketing: Mm. User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls? Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine. User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good. User Interface: and then the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: this is my great little drawing. Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker} User Interface: Y yes, yes. Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no User Interface: {gap} Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something. Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time. Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel. Marketing: D Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay. Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker} User Interface: That was {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker} Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change User Interface: Um well Project Manager: of one sort. User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume, Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: but what what do you guys think? Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker} User Interface: We could {disfmarker} Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers. Project Manager: Fingers, Industrial Designer: Yeah, Project Manager: yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling, Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different, User Interface: B Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two. Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along. Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: okay, fine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm right. Marketing: {gap} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here we go. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah, Project Manager: What? Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long. Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Uh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. Industrial Designer: but yeah. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Wh Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product. Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm. User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover? Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that. User Interface: So um Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers User Interface: like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing? Project Manager: S Industrial Designer: Um. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah, User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples. Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection User Interface: So f Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true. Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from. Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker} Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right. Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote. User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah. Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly. Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right, User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture? Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um this is fashionable. Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: with {disfmarker} Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Oh yeah. Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those. Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it, Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour User Interface: like an {gap}. Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: yeah. Uh no Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour. Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}. Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound} User Interface: Well n Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah. User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had. Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though User Interface: Kind of a c Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip. Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse, Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Sort of a combination. Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it. User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle User Interface: then wider up here. Industrial Designer: an yeah. User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something. Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool. User Interface: What do you guys think about that? Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it? Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's a very good point. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: It is a very good point. Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it, Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque, User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice. Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um. Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing. Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w Industrial Designer: Bu Mm. Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um. Marketing: Hmm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and and sc Marketing: that's a good idea. Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available. User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume. Project Manager: Uh uh uh Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display? Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay. User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah. Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu User Interface: Yeah, and then y Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah. Marketing: Well I mean Project Manager: Yep. Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true. User Interface: Yeah, press that is t Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though, User Interface: yeah, that might work. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select. Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah. User Interface: You know what I mean? Marketing: Uh yeah. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting, User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool. Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete, Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake. Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course. Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for Marketing: long term. Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um. Marketing: And we're having a custom chip? Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um. Marketing: And interchangeable case? Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new. Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm. Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better. Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant. Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think so too. Marketing: Cool. User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel, Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current, Marketing: As wide as possible. Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um. Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah. User Interface: Like this or like this. Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker} User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep. Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes. Industrial Designer:'Kay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer:'Kay.

Industrial Designer proposed to select a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery, but Project Manager rejected and preferred a conventional one. In terms of the choice of chips, Industrial Designer pointed out that custom-designed ones were more flexible but would cost more and take a long time, so Project Manager favoured chips off the shelf. However, in view of the significance of technological innovation, the team eventually chose custom-designed ones.

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tr-sq-722_0

Why did Project Manager reject custom-designed chips initially when discussing components design? Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry. Industrial Designer: Um p there we go. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up. Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um. Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep. Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much? Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound} Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip. Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed, Project Manager: Right, Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form, Project Manager: okay. Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that? User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick. User Interface: and that w Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit, User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay. Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it? Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah. Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive, Industrial Designer: Yes, as well. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros. Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: uh decide. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts? User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker} Marketing: Would {disfmarker} User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead. Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost. Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project? Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker} Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap} User Interface: Oh yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Hm. User Interface: {gap} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing. Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time. Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm, mm. User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it. Project Manager: Mm, right, okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so. Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh technologically innovative. Project Manager: Right, okay, so. Industrial Designer: No, Project Manager: Fine. Okay. Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm. Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons? User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah. User Interface: I think so. Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No? Industrial Designer: Uh nope, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it. Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra? Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Project Manager: Mm. Oh good. User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work? Project Manager: Mm yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it. Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep. User Interface: Okay. Okay, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual. Project Manager: Mm, yeah. User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here, Project Manager: Uh-huh. User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs, Project Manager: Alright. User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side, Marketing: Mm. User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls? Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine. User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good. User Interface: and then the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: this is my great little drawing. Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker} User Interface: Y yes, yes. Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no User Interface: {gap} Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something. Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time. Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel. Marketing: D Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay. Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker} User Interface: That was {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker} Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change User Interface: Um well Project Manager: of one sort. User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume, Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: but what what do you guys think? Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker} User Interface: We could {disfmarker} Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers. Project Manager: Fingers, Industrial Designer: Yeah, Project Manager: yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling, Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different, User Interface: B Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two. Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along. Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: okay, fine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm right. Marketing: {gap} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here we go. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah, Project Manager: What? Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long. Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Uh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. Industrial Designer: but yeah. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Wh Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product. Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm. User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover? Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that. User Interface: So um Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers User Interface: like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing? Project Manager: S Industrial Designer: Um. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah, User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples. Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection User Interface: So f Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true. Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from. Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker} Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right. Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote. User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah. Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly. Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right, User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture? Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um this is fashionable. Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: with {disfmarker} Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Oh yeah. Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those. Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it, Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour User Interface: like an {gap}. Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: yeah. Uh no Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour. Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}. Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound} User Interface: Well n Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah. User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had. Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though User Interface: Kind of a c Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip. Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse, Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Sort of a combination. Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it. User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle User Interface: then wider up here. Industrial Designer: an yeah. User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something. Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool. User Interface: What do you guys think about that? Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it? Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's a very good point. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: It is a very good point. Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it, Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque, User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice. Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um. Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing. Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w Industrial Designer: Bu Mm. Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um. Marketing: Hmm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and and sc Marketing: that's a good idea. Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available. User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume. Project Manager: Uh uh uh Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display? Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay. User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah. Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu User Interface: Yeah, and then y Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah. Marketing: Well I mean Project Manager: Yep. Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true. User Interface: Yeah, press that is t Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though, User Interface: yeah, that might work. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select. Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah. User Interface: You know what I mean? Marketing: Uh yeah. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting, User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool. Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete, Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake. Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course. Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for Marketing: long term. Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um. Marketing: And we're having a custom chip? Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um. Marketing: And interchangeable case? Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new. Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm. Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better. Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant. Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think so too. Marketing: Cool. User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel, Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current, Marketing: As wide as possible. Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um. Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah. User Interface: Like this or like this. Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker} User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep. Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes. Industrial Designer:'Kay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer:'Kay.

Project Manager learned that custom-designed chips would be expensive and the completion time could not be predicted as the voice technology had not been well developed yet.

tr-sq-723

tr-sq-723_0

Why did Project Manager agree to use custom-designed chips later in the discussion of components design? Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry. Industrial Designer: Um p there we go. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up. Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um. Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep. Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much? Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound} Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip. Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed, Project Manager: Right, Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form, Project Manager: okay. Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that? User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick. User Interface: and that w Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit, User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay. Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it? Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah. Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive, Industrial Designer: Yes, as well. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros. Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: uh decide. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts? User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker} Marketing: Would {disfmarker} User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead. Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost. Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project? Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker} Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap} User Interface: Oh yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Hm. User Interface: {gap} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing. Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time. Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm, mm. User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it. Project Manager: Mm, right, okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so. Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh technologically innovative. Project Manager: Right, okay, so. Industrial Designer: No, Project Manager: Fine. Okay. Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm. Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons? User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah. User Interface: I think so. Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No? Industrial Designer: Uh nope, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it. Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra? Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Project Manager: Mm. Oh good. User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work? Project Manager: Mm yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it. Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep. User Interface: Okay. Okay, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual. Project Manager: Mm, yeah. User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here, Project Manager: Uh-huh. User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs, Project Manager: Alright. User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side, Marketing: Mm. User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls? Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine. User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good. User Interface: and then the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: this is my great little drawing. Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker} User Interface: Y yes, yes. Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no User Interface: {gap} Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something. Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time. Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel. Marketing: D Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay. Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker} User Interface: That was {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker} Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change User Interface: Um well Project Manager: of one sort. User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume, Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: but what what do you guys think? Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker} User Interface: We could {disfmarker} Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers. Project Manager: Fingers, Industrial Designer: Yeah, Project Manager: yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling, Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different, User Interface: B Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two. Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along. Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: okay, fine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm right. Marketing: {gap} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here we go. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah, Project Manager: What? Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long. Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Uh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. Industrial Designer: but yeah. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Wh Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product. Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm. User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover? Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that. User Interface: So um Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers User Interface: like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing? Project Manager: S Industrial Designer: Um. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah, User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples. Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection User Interface: So f Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true. Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from. Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker} Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right. Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote. User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah. Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly. Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right, User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture? Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um this is fashionable. Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: with {disfmarker} Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Oh yeah. Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those. Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it, Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour User Interface: like an {gap}. Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: yeah. Uh no Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour. Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}. Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound} User Interface: Well n Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah. User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had. Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though User Interface: Kind of a c Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip. Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse, Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Sort of a combination. Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it. User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle User Interface: then wider up here. Industrial Designer: an yeah. User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something. Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool. User Interface: What do you guys think about that? Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it? Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's a very good point. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: It is a very good point. Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it, Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque, User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice. Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um. Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing. Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w Industrial Designer: Bu Mm. Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um. Marketing: Hmm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and and sc Marketing: that's a good idea. Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available. User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume. Project Manager: Uh uh uh Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display? Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay. User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah. Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu User Interface: Yeah, and then y Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah. Marketing: Well I mean Project Manager: Yep. Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true. User Interface: Yeah, press that is t Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though, User Interface: yeah, that might work. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select. Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah. User Interface: You know what I mean? Marketing: Uh yeah. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting, User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool. Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete, Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake. Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course. Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for Marketing: long term. Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um. Marketing: And we're having a custom chip? Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um. Marketing: And interchangeable case? Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new. Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm. Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better. Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant. Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think so too. Marketing: Cool. User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel, Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current, Marketing: As wide as possible. Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um. Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah. User Interface: Like this or like this. Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker} User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep. Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes. Industrial Designer:'Kay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer:'Kay.

Industrial Designer pointed out that voice technology was fundamental to the project and Marketing also revealed the importance of technological innovation.

tr-sq-724

tr-sq-724_0

What did the group discuss about button design of remote control? Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry. Industrial Designer: Um p there we go. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up. Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um. Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep. Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much? Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound} Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip. Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed, Project Manager: Right, Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form, Project Manager: okay. Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that? User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick. User Interface: and that w Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit, User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay. Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it? Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah. Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive, Industrial Designer: Yes, as well. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros. Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: uh decide. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts? User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker} Marketing: Would {disfmarker} User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead. Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost. Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project? Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker} Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap} User Interface: Oh yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Hm. User Interface: {gap} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing. Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time. Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm, mm. User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it. Project Manager: Mm, right, okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so. Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh technologically innovative. Project Manager: Right, okay, so. Industrial Designer: No, Project Manager: Fine. Okay. Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm. Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons? User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah. User Interface: I think so. Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No? Industrial Designer: Uh nope, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it. Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra? Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Project Manager: Mm. Oh good. User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work? Project Manager: Mm yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it. Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep. User Interface: Okay. Okay, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual. Project Manager: Mm, yeah. User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here, Project Manager: Uh-huh. User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs, Project Manager: Alright. User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side, Marketing: Mm. User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls? Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine. User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good. User Interface: and then the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: this is my great little drawing. Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker} User Interface: Y yes, yes. Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no User Interface: {gap} Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something. Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time. Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel. Marketing: D Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay. Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker} User Interface: That was {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker} Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change User Interface: Um well Project Manager: of one sort. User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume, Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: but what what do you guys think? Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker} User Interface: We could {disfmarker} Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers. Project Manager: Fingers, Industrial Designer: Yeah, Project Manager: yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling, Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different, User Interface: B Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two. Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along. Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: okay, fine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm right. Marketing: {gap} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here we go. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah, Project Manager: What? Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long. Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Uh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. Industrial Designer: but yeah. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Wh Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product. Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm. User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover? Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that. User Interface: So um Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers User Interface: like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing? Project Manager: S Industrial Designer: Um. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah, User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples. Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection User Interface: So f Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true. Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from. Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker} Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right. Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote. User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah. Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly. Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right, User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture? Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um this is fashionable. Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: with {disfmarker} Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Oh yeah. Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those. Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it, Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour User Interface: like an {gap}. Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: yeah. Uh no Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour. Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}. Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound} User Interface: Well n Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah. User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had. Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though User Interface: Kind of a c Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip. Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse, Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Sort of a combination. Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it. User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle User Interface: then wider up here. Industrial Designer: an yeah. User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something. Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool. User Interface: What do you guys think about that? Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it? Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's a very good point. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: It is a very good point. Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it, Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque, User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice. Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um. Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing. Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w Industrial Designer: Bu Mm. Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um. Marketing: Hmm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and and sc Marketing: that's a good idea. Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available. User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume. Project Manager: Uh uh uh Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display? Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay. User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah. Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu User Interface: Yeah, and then y Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah. Marketing: Well I mean Project Manager: Yep. Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true. User Interface: Yeah, press that is t Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though, User Interface: yeah, that might work. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select. Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah. User Interface: You know what I mean? Marketing: Uh yeah. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting, User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool. Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete, Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake. Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course. Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for Marketing: long term. Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um. Marketing: And we're having a custom chip? Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um. Marketing: And interchangeable case? Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new. Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm. Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better. Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant. Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think so too. Marketing: Cool. User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel, Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current, Marketing: As wide as possible. Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um. Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah. User Interface: Like this or like this. Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker} User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep. Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes. Industrial Designer:'Kay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer:'Kay.

User Interface proposed that to avoid excessive buttons, a slide button could be used and envisaged that the push button could be added when changing the function of the slider. Project Manager agreed and supposed that three buttons could be put on a slider. Eventually, the team achieved an agreement that they need buttons for channel change, power, menu and volume.

tr-sq-725

tr-sq-725_0

What did Project Manager think about slide buttons when discussing button design? Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry. Industrial Designer: Um p there we go. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up. Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um. Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep. Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much? Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound} Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip. Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed, Project Manager: Right, Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form, Project Manager: okay. Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that? User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick. User Interface: and that w Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit, User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay. Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it? Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah. Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive, Industrial Designer: Yes, as well. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros. Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: uh decide. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts? User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker} Marketing: Would {disfmarker} User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead. Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost. Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project? Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker} Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap} User Interface: Oh yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Hm. User Interface: {gap} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing. Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time. Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm, mm. User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it. Project Manager: Mm, right, okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so. Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh technologically innovative. Project Manager: Right, okay, so. Industrial Designer: No, Project Manager: Fine. Okay. Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm. Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons? User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah. User Interface: I think so. Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No? Industrial Designer: Uh nope, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it. Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra? Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Project Manager: Mm. Oh good. User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work? Project Manager: Mm yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it. Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep. User Interface: Okay. Okay, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual. Project Manager: Mm, yeah. User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here, Project Manager: Uh-huh. User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs, Project Manager: Alright. User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side, Marketing: Mm. User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls? Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine. User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good. User Interface: and then the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: this is my great little drawing. Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker} User Interface: Y yes, yes. Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no User Interface: {gap} Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something. Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time. Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel. Marketing: D Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay. Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker} User Interface: That was {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker} Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change User Interface: Um well Project Manager: of one sort. User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume, Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: but what what do you guys think? Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker} User Interface: We could {disfmarker} Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers. Project Manager: Fingers, Industrial Designer: Yeah, Project Manager: yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling, Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different, User Interface: B Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two. Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along. Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: okay, fine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm right. Marketing: {gap} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here we go. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah, Project Manager: What? Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long. Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Uh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. Industrial Designer: but yeah. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Wh Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product. Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm. User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover? Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that. User Interface: So um Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers User Interface: like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing? Project Manager: S Industrial Designer: Um. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah, User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples. Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection User Interface: So f Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true. Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from. Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker} Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right. Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote. User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah. Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly. Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right, User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture? Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um this is fashionable. Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: with {disfmarker} Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Oh yeah. Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those. Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it, Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour User Interface: like an {gap}. Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: yeah. Uh no Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour. Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}. Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound} User Interface: Well n Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah. User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had. Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though User Interface: Kind of a c Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip. Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse, Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Sort of a combination. Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it. User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle User Interface: then wider up here. Industrial Designer: an yeah. User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something. Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool. User Interface: What do you guys think about that? Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it? Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's a very good point. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: It is a very good point. Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it, Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque, User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice. Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um. Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing. Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w Industrial Designer: Bu Mm. Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um. Marketing: Hmm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and and sc Marketing: that's a good idea. Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available. User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume. Project Manager: Uh uh uh Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display? Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay. User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah. Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu User Interface: Yeah, and then y Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah. Marketing: Well I mean Project Manager: Yep. Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true. User Interface: Yeah, press that is t Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though, User Interface: yeah, that might work. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select. Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah. User Interface: You know what I mean? Marketing: Uh yeah. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting, User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool. Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete, Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake. Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course. Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for Marketing: long term. Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um. Marketing: And we're having a custom chip? Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um. Marketing: And interchangeable case? Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new. Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm. Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better. Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant. Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think so too. Marketing: Cool. User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel, Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current, Marketing: As wide as possible. Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um. Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah. User Interface: Like this or like this. Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker} User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep. Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes. Industrial Designer:'Kay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer:'Kay.

Project Manager thought push buttons were simpler, cheaper and more reliable and initially had doubts about slide buttons. But when User Interface revealed that slide buttons actually cost the same as push buttons, Project Manager agreed to the idea and supposed that three buttons could be installed on a slide button to save space.

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What buttons did the team think was needed in the discussion of button design? Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry. Industrial Designer: Um p there we go. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up. Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um. Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep. Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much? Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound} Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip. Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed, Project Manager: Right, Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form, Project Manager: okay. Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that? User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick. User Interface: and that w Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit, User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay. Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it? Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah. Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive, Industrial Designer: Yes, as well. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros. Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: uh decide. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts? User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker} Marketing: Would {disfmarker} User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead. Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost. Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project? Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker} Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap} User Interface: Oh yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Hm. User Interface: {gap} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing. Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time. Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm, mm. User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it. Project Manager: Mm, right, okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so. Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh technologically innovative. Project Manager: Right, okay, so. Industrial Designer: No, Project Manager: Fine. Okay. Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm. Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons? User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah. User Interface: I think so. Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No? Industrial Designer: Uh nope, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it. Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra? Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Project Manager: Mm. Oh good. User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work? Project Manager: Mm yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it. Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep. User Interface: Okay. Okay, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual. Project Manager: Mm, yeah. User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here, Project Manager: Uh-huh. User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs, Project Manager: Alright. User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side, Marketing: Mm. User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls? Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine. User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good. User Interface: and then the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: this is my great little drawing. Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker} User Interface: Y yes, yes. Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no User Interface: {gap} Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something. Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time. Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel. Marketing: D Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay. Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker} User Interface: That was {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker} Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change User Interface: Um well Project Manager: of one sort. User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume, Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: but what what do you guys think? Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker} User Interface: We could {disfmarker} Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers. Project Manager: Fingers, Industrial Designer: Yeah, Project Manager: yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling, Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different, User Interface: B Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two. Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along. Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: okay, fine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm right. Marketing: {gap} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here we go. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah, Project Manager: What? Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long. Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Uh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. Industrial Designer: but yeah. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Wh Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product. Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm. User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover? Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that. User Interface: So um Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers User Interface: like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing? Project Manager: S Industrial Designer: Um. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah, User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples. Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection User Interface: So f Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true. Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from. Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker} Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right. Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote. User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah. Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly. Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right, User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture? Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um this is fashionable. Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: with {disfmarker} Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Oh yeah. Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those. Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it, Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour User Interface: like an {gap}. Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: yeah. Uh no Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour. Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}. Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound} User Interface: Well n Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah. User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had. Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though User Interface: Kind of a c Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip. Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse, Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Sort of a combination. Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it. User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle User Interface: then wider up here. Industrial Designer: an yeah. User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something. Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool. User Interface: What do you guys think about that? Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it? Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's a very good point. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: It is a very good point. Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it, Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque, User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice. Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um. Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing. Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w Industrial Designer: Bu Mm. Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um. Marketing: Hmm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and and sc Marketing: that's a good idea. Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available. User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume. Project Manager: Uh uh uh Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display? Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay. User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah. Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu User Interface: Yeah, and then y Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah. Marketing: Well I mean Project Manager: Yep. Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true. User Interface: Yeah, press that is t Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though, User Interface: yeah, that might work. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select. Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah. User Interface: You know what I mean? Marketing: Uh yeah. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting, User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool. Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete, Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake. Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course. Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for Marketing: long term. Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um. Marketing: And we're having a custom chip? Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um. Marketing: And interchangeable case? Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new. Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm. Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better. Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant. Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think so too. Marketing: Cool. User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel, Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current, Marketing: As wide as possible. Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um. Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah. User Interface: Like this or like this. Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker} User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep. Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes. Industrial Designer:'Kay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer:'Kay.

The team initially supposed that the buttons for channel change, power and volume were needed. But then, they came to realize that people might need to change brightness, tint and stuff so they thought a menu button was also needed.

tr-gq-727

tr-gq-727_0

Summarize the whole meeting. Project Manager: Alright? Alright. Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group. Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control. Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting. Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls, we felt, was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better. Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn. Um and people lose them. And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy, um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons, and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use. That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable, A_ um as uh a trendy remote control, and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product. So that w uh when people are uh happy with that, they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay. So again um, I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision. Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today, finally, are um what energy source we want to use, whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one. And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply, then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down, we'll we'll give them another one. And uh it it'll be uh, you know, prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um, you know, for life, guaranteed for life. Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things, but presumably, there must be loads of'em already on the market that we can modify. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise. And then the uh, you know, the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today. Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface, whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice, buttons, or or a bit of both. Uh and then uh, you know, f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look, feel and design, Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation. And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh so, if if we can have the the three presentations again please, and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Kate. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry. Industrial Designer: Um p there we go. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay, I'll just be talking about the components design. And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do. Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_. Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator, uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor. Um. {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format. This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels. {vocalsound} Um. Oh. {vocalsound} Uh cool. {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons. Uh y the fewer buttons you have, I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need. Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost. That's something we should think about. Also we have to work within the company constraints, and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it. Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use, so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea. {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips, uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf, and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon. Um, however that's gonna cost more, but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster, but it's going to be less flexible with the features, especially things like uh voice activation, which haven't really been used much on remotes, so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip. {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up. Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry, can you uh just put that one back up again, please? Um. Industrial Designer: Mm. Oh yep, sorry. {vocalsound} Yep. Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay, I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive. Do we do we know uh by how much? Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information, no. {vocalsound} Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip. Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip. Oh w yeah, we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed, Project Manager: Right, Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form, Project Manager: okay. Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Right, I think we need to make a a decision here. Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology. Um uh now before we go round everybody else, does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that? User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that. Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands, for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say, you know, nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one, as your favourite, it's like to have a certain number of favourites um Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick. User Interface: and that w Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there, then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit, User Interface: Okay. Then it doesn't matter. Okay. Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that, you know, mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling. So uh um I mean User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no, I mean, it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you, so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information, is it? Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it, yeah. Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive, Industrial Designer: Yes, as well. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: you know, hundred and fifty pounds or something. As opposed to the twenty Euros, twenty five Euros. Project Manager: Yeah, mm true, again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: uh decide. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them, not just that, so. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's that's right. It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker}'cause mobile phones are expensive, you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: But we don't know. Um. {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before, um th th the double risk, uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons, since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work. Um. Thoughts? User Interface: Well, another thought I {disfmarker} Marketing: Would {disfmarker} User Interface: oh, sorry, go ahead. Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost. Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project? Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning, so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental, but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that, so I think you have to {disfmarker} Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap} User Interface: Oh yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Hm. User Interface: {gap} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it, then maybe we should have it for the whole thing. Project Manager: Yeah, I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time. Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm, mm. User Interface: Anyway, I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it. Project Manager: Mm, right, okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Uh yeah, {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative. Project Manager: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: From uh my presentation show, so. Project Manager: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh technologically innovative. Project Manager: Right, okay, so. Industrial Designer: No, Project Manager: Fine. Okay. Industrial Designer: that sounds good. Mm. Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh Industrial Designer: Mm. Cool. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: second question, do we need the five buttons for channel change, up down, {vocalsound} volume up down and on off, just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons? User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I I would say we do, yeah. User Interface: I think so. Project Manager: Right. Okay. Sorry, d did you want to say anything? No? Industrial Designer: Uh nope, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: that was it, that was it. Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra? Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see. Project Manager: Mm. Oh good. User Interface: Oh. Yes. Is it gonna work? Project Manager: Mm yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's thinking about it. Project Manager: it'll get there. Yep. User Interface: Okay. Okay, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know, the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users, um commands and mechanisms for the operation, and there're just kind of a variety of choices. Um findings, so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual. Project Manager: Mm, yeah. User Interface: There're some special ones available, like this one right here, Project Manager: Uh-huh. User Interface: which is marketed towards children, um different designs, Project Manager: Alright. User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse, that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume, for example, have the slide button on the side, Marketing: Mm. User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels, the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah. Sorry y y yeah, {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you. Well d {vocalsound} p'kay, do you wanna say anything about um slide controls? Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple, cheap and reliable. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really. I I mean, I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there. I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection. Mm yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, fair enough, fine. User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down Project Manager: Yeah. Good, good. User Interface: and then the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: this is my great little drawing. Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Three buttons, channel up channel up down and {disfmarker} User Interface: Y yes, yes. Marketing: Well, if you g if you if you got a channel up down, we can have a slider in that as well. Because if it {disfmarker} if you no User Interface: {gap} Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks, if you know what I mean, up like one unit, if you see what I mean. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So it kinda goes up one, then y like you can keep rolling it up, but it's like like like like a cog or something. Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time. Project Manager: Okay. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons, like the buttons on one side for the channel, and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand, and you pick it up, it's easy to n s know, okay, this is just the volume and this is the channel. Marketing: D Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay. Industrial Designer: Ye yeah,'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume, or vice versa, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different. You'd know what you were fiddling with. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker} User Interface: That was {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like the shape of it almost like a mouse, with a {disfmarker} Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change User Interface: Um well Project Manager: of one sort. User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume, Project Manager: Just for the volume, uh. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: but what what do you guys think? Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker} User Interface: We could {disfmarker} Marketing: depending on the final shape of it,'cause you could have like, I dunno, {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers. Project Manager: Fingers, Industrial Designer: Yeah, Project Manager: yeah. Industrial Designer:'cause if {disfmarker} yeah, in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling, Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah, I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different, User Interface: B Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two. Marketing: Oh yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So okay. Right so uh User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along. Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: okay, fine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm right. Marketing: {gap} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here we go. Project Manager: Right. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah, this is my report on trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer. And we got reports from Paris, Milan on new fashions. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy, look and feel Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel. This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect, Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it. So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given, we have to try and incorporate, so uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly, yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence? Uh yeah, sorry. Uh yeah, and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes, et cetera. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: Uh sorry, clothes, shoes and furniture Project Manager: Uh-huh. Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that, that's different, certainly. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. But uh I was gonna say um yeah, Project Manager: What? Marketing: fruit and vegetables, uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture, I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy, then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long. Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things, like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year, we can have the face plates, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Uh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights. You know, that kind of spongy {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah, that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh. Industrial Designer: but yeah. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound}, yeah, it's good as well. Mm-hmm. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool. Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself, you know, could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed? Instead of having a ten year guarantee? With interchangeable covers, could just buy a new one every year, a new one when new fashions come out. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea, it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those,'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before. Um that's {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Wh Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one, because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product. Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last, you know, a long time. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm. User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover? Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. I like that. User Interface: So um Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages'em to buy new covers User Interface: like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: Yeah, so can I see that thing? Project Manager: S Industrial Designer: Um. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah, User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples. Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection User Interface: So f Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability, whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all, you know, completely soldered together Industrial Designer: Uh yeah. Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know, total reliability, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, I guess that's true. Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from. Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well, but like uh like more than just the battery, like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like, you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep, and this is the expensive bit, this is like the chip Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: and this is the microphone. And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees. And then {disfmarker} Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route, then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that, um just building the whole thing in one, then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, you probably are right. Project Manager: um and, you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing, the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all, it will still work um totally. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um then if, you know, if people lose the cover, I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote. User Interface: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers, you're sort of tricking'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, User Interface: Yeah, just another five Euro to get {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: Mm, yeah. Project Manager: Um and, you know, as as external fashions change, then we get new new covers on the market and, you know, readily available. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing, once you get the mould set, you can just whip out different colours, different pictures very very quickly. Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, like they have for mobile phones Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay. {vocalsound} Um right, User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: sorry. Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh, don't worry it's all said, I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah, are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture, so are we gonna make this part of the furniture? Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me. Industrial Designer: Mm. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um this is fashionable. Marketing: Yeah. This is fashionable Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: with {disfmarker} Project Manager: I, you know, I'm I'm I'm with it, I'm up to date. And you know, th the the design that I've got, and and it could be a a home-made design, um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control, this is, you know, a fashion accessory. Um, so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably, two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing. And, know whether we go down the fruit and veg route, and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana, but um know sort of the the organic, you know, curved look, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you know, t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know, the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Oh yeah. Project Manager: and, you know, whether whether the you know, the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow. Um mm or uh {disfmarker}'cause there's certainly you know, the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right, that's a Real Reaction remote control, I want one of those. Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it, Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour User Interface: like an {gap}. Project Manager: Yeah, I'd I'd um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: yeah. Uh no Industrial Designer: no, but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour. Project Manager: I d I I agree, I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}. Mm {vocalsound}. Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well. {vocalsound} User Interface: Well n Project Manager: Well, th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point, yes, you know, I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh then people, you know, people demand more Real Reaction stuff. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. Yeah. User Interface: So that, you know, when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it, but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: have the power, wherever, somewhere. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had. Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape User Interface: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you'd want it narrower than a mouse though User Interface: Kind of a c Industrial Designer:'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it, you want something you can definitely grip. Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse, Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Sort of a combination. Project Manager: but held, you know, so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that, i with, you know, and fiddling with the buttons. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, and fiddle around with it and press it. User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah, kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this,'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold, and then if you had {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush, like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top User Interface: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle User Interface: then wider up here. Industrial Designer: an yeah. User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light, the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. User Interface: and the power could be wherever, up up the top or something. Industrial Designer: Yeah, cool. User Interface: What do you guys think about that? Project Manager: Okay, yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to. I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it? Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's a very good point. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: It is a very good point. Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes. That um the {vocalsound} we n Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form, but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound}. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know, this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap}'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling, but you can also bring it up like that Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it, Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque, User Interface: Yeah, and just say {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Marketing: Yeah, maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice. Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there, people wouldn't use it anyway um. Marketing: Mm I suppose, but t there is the off chance that, you know, th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing. Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean, but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w Industrial Designer: Bu Mm. Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um. Marketing: Hmm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons. I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands, and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: and and sc Marketing: that's a good idea. Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons User Interface: Yeah, I suppose I sup Industrial Designer: and still have those, you know, brightness and tint and stuff. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available. User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well. Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume. Project Manager: Uh uh uh Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, if we if we're going down that route, then we need some sort of display. Do we need some sort of display? Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display Project Manager: We actually use the television, okay. Okay, okay, okay. User Interface: Yeah, that's on the T_V_, yeah. Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu User Interface: Yeah, and then y Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness, and you'd use the scroll, scroll through it yeah. Marketing: Well I mean Project Manager: Yep. Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse, the ru the scrolling button, is actually a button as well, you could press it, you could press that and have it as a menu button. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah, that's true. User Interface: Yeah, press that is t Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though, User Interface: yeah, that might work. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's like um {disfmarker} yeah, it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it. You just press it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. User Interface: Yeah, and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select. Industrial Designer: Mm, oka yeah. Yeah. User Interface: You know what I mean? Marketing: Uh yeah. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Okay, we got five minutes to go in this meeting, User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool. Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete, Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control. Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake. Project Manager: Yeah, certainly, of course. Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for Marketing: long term. Project Manager: for simplicity of, you know, manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um, Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Cool. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know, on the basis that um that, you know, if we're going for making it a fashion statement, then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um. Marketing: And we're having a custom chip? Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip, but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down, um that will hopefully not be too problematic, but given that um technol technological innovation is important, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: then we need to, I'll say it again, technologically innovate. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and uh we we, know, we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um. Marketing: And interchangeable case? Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap, you know, if if we avoid any, you know, electrical connections. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: And uh i you know, i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want, then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new. Marketing: Mm, mm-hmm. Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not, but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway, and uh and if if we can keep them, you know, rolling, then uh {disfmarker} you know, so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets, I won't mention any mention any names, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better. Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no, because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant. Industrial Designer: Mm, does actually, yeah, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think so too. Marketing: Cool. User Interface: Yeah, and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel, Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: yeah, yeah. Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: you know, that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life,'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: so no, I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having, it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle, or is it just {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current, Marketing: As wide as possible. Project Manager: so that if you're holding it, you know, anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know, i i it will work most of the time um. Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah. User Interface: Like this or like this. Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um yeah, I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing, then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah, kinda like this whole {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, mm. Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker} User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap}. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah,'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it, the chances are, so if if they're holding it anyway, the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, d we're all clear where we go from here. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep. Industrial Designer: Yep, sounds good. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Okay, so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes. Industrial Designer:'Kay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer:'Kay.

This is the third meeting of the design group. Project Manager raised the question left over from the last meeting. That is, what kind of energy source should be used. Industrial Designer preferred a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery, but Project Manager rejected and decided to use a long-term battery in light of the production cost. Then Industrial Designer described the advantages and disadvantages of custom-designed chips and chips off the shelf. Due to the significance of technological innovation, the team decided to choose the former. After discussion, the team agreed that they needed buttons for channel change, power, menu and volume, and proposed to add a slide button. In terms of the appearance design, Marketing proposed to follow the fashion and use a spongy material. In order to keep up with the changes in fashion, the team recommended interchangeable covers.

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What was said in future work? Grad E: As usual. Grad B: Yes. Whew! I almost forgot {pause} about the meeting. I woke up twenty minutes ago, thinking, what did I forget? Grad D: It's great how the br brain sort of does that. Grad E: Something's not right here. Grad B: Internal alarms. Grad D: OK. So the news for me is A, my forthcoming travel plans Grad B: Yes. Grad D: in two weeks from today? Yeah? More or less? I'll be off to Sicily and Germany for a couple, three days. Grad B: Now what are y what are you doing there? I forgot? Grad D: OK, I'm flying to Sicily basically to drop off Simon there with his grandparents. And then I'm flying to Germany t to go to a MOKU - Treffen which is the meeting of all the module - responsible people in SmartKom, Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: and, represent ICI and myself I guess there. And um. That's the mmm actual reason. And then I'm also going up to EML for a day, and then I'm going to {vocalsound} meet the very big boss, Wolfgang Walster, in Saarbruecken and the System system integration people in Kaiserslautern and then I'm flying back via Sicily pick up my son come back here on the fourth of July. And uh. Grad E: What a great time to be coming back to the Grad B: God bless America. Grad E: You'll see maybe {disfmarker} see the fireworks from your plane coming in. Grad D: And I'm sure all the {disfmarker} the people at the airport will be happy to work on that day. Grad E: Yeah. You'll get even better service than usual. Grad B: Wait, aren't you flying on Lufthansa though? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Alitalia. Grad B: Oh. Well then the {disfmarker} you know, it's not a big deal. Once you get to the United States it'll be a problem, but Grad D: Yeah. And um, that's that bit of news, and the other bit of news is we had {disfmarker} you know, uh, I was visited by my German project manager who A, did like what we did {disfmarker} what we're doing here, and B, is planning to come here either three weeks in July or three weeks in August, to actually work. Grad B: On {disfmarker}? Grad D: With us. Grad B: Oh. Grad D: And we sat around and we talked and he came up {disfmarker} we came up {disfmarker} with a pretty strange idea. And that's what I'm gonna lay on you now. And um, maybe it might be ultimately the most interesting thing for Eva because she has been known to complain about the fact that the stuff we do here is not weird enough. Grad C: OK. Grad D: So this is so weird it should even make you happy. Grad C: Uh. {comment} OK. Grad E: Oh great. Grad D: Imagine if you will, {vocalsound} that we have a system that does all that understanding that we want it to do based on utterances. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It should be possible to make that system produce questions. So if you have the knowledge of how to interpret" where is X?" under given conditions, situational, user, discourse and ontological {vocalsound} conditions, you should also be able to make that same system ask" where is X?" Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: in a sper certain way, based on certain intentions. So in instead of just being able to observe phenomenon, um, and, guess the intention we might be able just to sort of give it an intention, and make it produce an utterance. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Well, like in AI they generally do the take in, and then they also do the generation phase, like Nancy's thing. Or uh, you remember, in the {disfmarker} the hand thing in one - eighty - two, like not only was it able to recognize but it was also to generate based upon situations. You mean that sort of thing? Grad D: Absolutely. Grad B: OK. Grad D: And once you've done that what we can do is have the system ask itself. And answer, understand the answer, ask something else, and enter a dialogue with itself. So the {disfmarker} the ba basic {disfmarker} the same idea as having two chess computers play against each other. Grad E: Except this smacks a little bit more of a schizophrenic computer than AI. Grad D: Yeah you c if you want, you can have two parallel {vocalsound} machines um, asking each other. What would that give us? Would A be something completely weird and strange, and B, i if you look at all the factors, we will never observe people let's say, in wheelchairs under {disfmarker} you know, in {disfmarker} under all conditions, Grad E: That's good. Grad D: you know, when they say" X" , and there is a ride at the goal, and the parking is good, we can never collect enough data. It's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's not possible. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Right, right. Grad D: But maybe one could do some learning. If you get the system to speak to itself, you may find n break downs and errors and you may be able to learn. And make it more robust, maybe learn new things. And um, so there's no {disfmarker} no end of potential things one could get out of it, if that works. And he would like to actually work on that with us. Grad B: Well then, he probably should be coming back a year {pause} from now. Grad D: So Yeah, I w See the {disfmarker} the generation bit, making the system generate {disfmarker} generate something, {comment} is {disfmarker} shouldn't be too hard. Grad B: Well, once the system understands things. Grad E: Yeah. No problem. Grad B: I just don't think {disfmarker} I think we're probably a year away from getting the system to understand things. Grad D: Yeah. Well, if we can get it to understand one thing, like our" where is" run through we can also, maybe, e make it say, or ask" where is X?" Or not. Grad E: Mmm, I don't know. e I'm sort of {disfmarker} have the impression that getting it to say the right thing in the right circumstances is much more difficult than getting it to understand something given the circumstances and so on, you know, I mean just cuz it's sort of harder to learn to speak correctly in a foreign language, rather than learning to understand it. Right? I mean Grad D: Grad E: just the fact that we'll get {disfmarker} The point is that getting it to understand one construction doesn't mean that it will n always know exactly when it's correct to use that construction. Right? Grad D: It's {disfmarker} it's uh {disfmarker} Well, I've {disfmarker} I've done generation and language production research for fo four {disfmarker} four and a half years. And so it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} you're right, it's not the same as the understanding. It's in some ways easier and some ways harder. nuh? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: But, um, I think it'd be fun to look at it, or into that question. Grad E: Nnn, yeah. Grad D: It's a pretty strange idea. And so that's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Grad B: The basic idea I guess would be to give {disfmarker} allow the system to have intentions, basically? Cuz that's basically what needs to be added to the system for it. Grad D: Well, look at th eee, I think even {disfmarker} think even {disfmarker} What it {disfmarker} would be the {disfmarker} the prior intention. So let's uh {disfmarker} uh, let's say we have this {disfmarker} Grad B: Well we'd have to seed that, I mean. Grad D: No. Let's {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} we have some {disfmarker} some top - down processing, given certain setting. OK, now we change nothing, and just say ask something. Right? Grad B: Grad D: What would it ask? Grad B: It wouldn't know what to ask. I mean. Grad D: It shur Grad B: Unless it was in a situation. We'd have to set up a situation where, it didn't know where something was and it wanted to go there. Grad D: Yeah! Grad C: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Yeah. Grad B: Which means that we'd need to set up an intention inside of the system. Right? Which is basically," I don't know where something is and I need to go there" . Grad D: Eh, n Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Ooh, do we really need to do that? Because, Grad B: Well, no I guess not. Excel Grad D: s It's {disfmarker} i I know it's {disfmarker} it's strange, but look at it {disfmarker} look at our Bayes - net. If we don't have {disfmarker} Let's assume we don't have any input from the language. Right? So there's also nothing we could query the ontology, but we have a certain user setting. If you just ask, what is the likelihood of that person wanting to enter some {disfmarker} something, it'll give you an answer. Grad B: Sure. Grad D: Right? That's just how they are. And so, @ @ whatever that is, it's the generic default intention. That it would find out. Which is, wanting to know where something is, maybe nnn {disfmarker} and wanting {disfmarker} I don't know what it's gonna be, but there's gonna be something that Grad E: Well you're not gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna get a variety of intentions out of that then? I mean, you're just talking about like given this user, what's the th what is it {disfmarker} what is that user most likely to want to do? Grad D: Well you can observe some user and context stuff and ask, what's the posterior probabilities of all of our decision nodes. Grad E: And, have it talk about {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: You could even say," let's take all the priors, let's observe nothing" , and query all the posterior probabilities. It - it's gonna tell us something. Right? Grad B: Well, it will d r assign values to all the nodes. Yes. Grad D: And {disfmarker} Yes. And come up with posterior probabilities for all the values of the decision nodes. Which, if we have an algorithm that filters out whatever the {disfmarker} the best or the most consistent answer out of that, will give us the intention ex nihilo. And that is exactly what would happen if we ask it to produce an utterance, it would be b based on that extension, ex nihilo, which we don't know what it is, but it's there. So we wouldn't even have to {disfmarker} t to kick start it by giving it a certain intention or observing anything on the decision node. And whatever that {disfmarker} maybe that would lead to" what is the castle?" , Grad B: I'm just {disfmarker} Grad D: or" what is that whatever" . Grad B: I guess what I'm afraid of is if we don't, you know, set up a {pause} situation, {comment} we'll just get a bunch of garbage out, like you know, everything's exactly thirty percent. Grad D: No {disfmarker} Grad C: Mmm. Grad D: Yeah. So what we actually then need to do is {disfmarker} is write a little script that changes all the settings, you know, go goes through all the permutations, which is {disfmarker} we did a {disfmarker} didn't we calculate that once? Grad B: Well that was {disfmarker} that was absurdly low, in the last meeting, Grad D: It's a {disfmarker} Grad C: Uh, Grad B: cuz I went and looked at it cuz I was thinking, that could not be right, and it would {disfmarker} it was on the order of twenty output nodes and something like twenty {disfmarker} Grad C: And like thirty input nodes Grad B: thirty input nodes. Grad C: or some {disfmarker} Grad B: So to test every output node, uh, would at least {disfmarker} Let's see, so it would be two to the thirty for every output node? Which is very th very large. Grad D: Oh! That's n Grad E: Oh. Grad D: that's {disfmarker} that's nothing for those neural guys. I mean, they train for millions and millions of epochs. Grad B: Well, I'm talking about Grad D: So. Grad B: Oh, I was gonna take a drink of my water. I'm talking about billions and billions and billions and a number {disfmarker} two to the thirty is like a Bhaskara said, we had calculated out and Bhaskara believes that it's larger than the number of particles in the universe. And if i Grad E: I don't know if that's right or not. Th - that's big. That's just {disfmarker} That's uh {disfmarker} It's a billion, right? Grad B: Two to the thirty? Well, two to the thirty is a billion, but if we have to do it two to the twenty times, then that's a very very large number. Grad E: Right. Argh. Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah, that's big. Grad B: Cuz you have to query the node, for every a uh, or query the net two to the twenty times. Grad E: Sure. Alright. Grad B: Or not two to th excuse me, twenty times. Grad E: OK. So, is it t comes to twenty billion or something? Grad B: Yes. As far as {disfmarker} Grad E: That's pretty big, though. Grad B: That's @ @ {disfmarker} That's big. Actually {disfmarker} Oh! We calculated a different number before. How did we do that? Grad C: Hmm. Grad E: I remember there being some other one floating around. But anyway, uh. Grad C: I don't really know. Grad E: Yeah, it's g Anyway, the point is that given all of these different factors, it's uh e it's {disfmarker} it's still going to be impossible to run through all of the possible situations or whatever. Grad C: Ooo, it's just big. Grad E: But I mean, this'll get us a bit closer at least, right? I mean. Grad B: If it takes us a second to do, for each one, and let's say it's twenty billion, {comment} then that's twenty billion seconds, which is {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Eva, do the math. Grad C: Can't. Grad E: Long! Grad C: Grad B: Hours and hours and hours and hours. But we can do randomized testing. Grad E: Tah - dah! Grad B: Which probabilistically will be good enough. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. So, it be it it's an idea that one could n for {disfmarker} for example run {disfmarker} run past, um, what's that guy's name? You know? He - he's usually here. Tsk. J J Jer - Jerj Grad E: Here in the group? Jerry Feldman. Grad D: Oh, yeah. That's the guy. We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we g Grad B: Wait, who? Grad E: Yeah, i that would the g the bald guy. Grad B: Oh! My advisor! Grad D: And um. so this is just an idea that's floating around and we'll see what happens. And um, hmm, what other news do I have? Well we fixed some more things from the SmartKom system, but that's not really of general interest, Um, Oh! Questions, yeah. I'll ask Eva about the E Bayes and she's working on that. How is the generation XML thing? Grad B: I'm gonna work on that today and tomorrow. Grad D: OK. No need to do it today or tomorrow even. Do it next week or {disfmarker} Grad B: I'm gonna finish it today, uh hopefully. Grad D: OK. Grad B: I wanna do one of those things where I stay here. Cuz uh, if I go home, I can't finish it. I've tried about five times so far, where I work for a while and then I'm like, I'm hungry. So I go home, and then I think {disfmarker} Grad E: I'm not going back. Grad B: Yeah. Either that or I think to myself, I can work at home. And then I try to work at home, but I fail miserably. Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Like I ended up at Blakes last night. Grad E: Non - conducive. Grad B: No. I almost got into a brawl. But I did not finish the uh, But I've been looking into it. I th @ @ It's not like it's a blank slate. I found everything that I need and stu and uh, Grad D: But st Grad B: At the b uh furthermore, I told Jerry that I was gonna finish it before he got back. So. Grad D: OK. Grad E: That's approaching. He's coming back when? Uh next {disfmarker} Grad B: Well, I think {disfmarker} we think we'll see him definitely on Tuesday for the next {disfmarker} Or, no, wait. The meetings are on Thursday. Grad D: Maybe. Grad B: Maybe. Grad D: Who knows. Grad E: OK. Grad B: Well, we'll see him next week. Grad E: Alright. Grad D: That's good. Yeah. The paper. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: I was thinking about that. Grad D: Hmm. Grad B: I think I will try to work on the SmartKom stuff and I'll {disfmarker} if I can finish it today, I'll help you with that tomorrow, if you work on it? I don't have a problem with us working on it though? So. Grad D: OK. Grad B: And it {disfmarker} Grad D: So you would say it's funky cool. Grad B: I mean we just {disfmarker} I mean it wouldn't hurt to write up a paper, cuz then, I mean, yeah {disfmarker} I was talking with Nancy and Nancy said, you don't know whether you have a paper to {pause} write up until you write it up. So. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Well Grad B: And since Jerry's coming back, we can run it by him too. So. Grad D: Yep. Um, what's your input? Grad E: Well, um, I don't have much experience with uh, conference papers for compu in the computer science realm, and so when I looked at what you had, which was apparently a complete submission, I just sort of said what {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I didn't really know what to do with it, like, this is the sort of the basic outline of the system or whatever, or {disfmarker} or" here's an idea" , right? That's what that paper was," here's {disfmarker} here's one possible thing you could do" , Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: short, eight pages, and I just don't know what you have in mind for expanding. Like I'd {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I didn't do is go to the web site of the conference and look at what they're looking for or whatever. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Well, it seems to me that um {disfmarker} Grad B: Wait, is this a computer science conference or is it a {disfmarker} Grad D: Um, well it's more {disfmarker} It's both, right? It's {disfmarker} it's sort of t cognitive, neural, psycho, linguistic, but all for the sake of doing computer science. So it's sort of cognitive, psycho, neural, plausibly motivated, architectures of natural language processing. So it seems pretty interdisciplinary, and I mean, w w the keynote speaker is Tomasello and blah - blah - blah, Grad E: Right. Oh, yeah. Grad D: so, W the {disfmarker} the question is what could we actually do and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and keep a straight face while doing it. Grad B: Well, I really can't keep a straight face doing anything. Grad D: And i My idea is, Grad E: Setting that aside. Grad D: well, you can say we have done a little bit and that's this, and uh sort of the rest is position paper," we wanna also do that" . Which is not too good. Might be more interesting to do something like let's assume um, we're right, we have as Jerry calls it, a delusion of adequacy, and take a" where is X" sentence, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and say," we will just talk about this, and how we cognitively, neurally, psycho - linguistically, construction grammar - ally, motivated, envision uh, understanding that" . Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: So we can actually show how we parse it. That should be able to {disfmarker} we should be able to come up with, you know, a sort of a {disfmarker} a parse. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's on, just {disfmarker} just put it on. Grad A: I'm OK. Grad B: Did Ben harass you? Grad A: Yes. Grad B: Good. Grad A: Was he supposed to harass me? Grad B: Yes. Grad A: Well, he just told me that you came looking for me. Grad D: You don Grad B: Oh. Grad D: Grad A: figure this out. Grad D: You will suffer in hell, you know that. Grad E: Backwards. There's a s diagram somewhere which tells you how to put that {disfmarker} Grad A: I know, I didn't understand that either! Grad B: No wait. You have to put it on exactly like that, Grad D: This is it. Yeah. Grad B: so put that {disfmarker} those things over your ears like that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: See the p how the plastic things ar arch out like that? There we go. Grad A: OK. It hurts. Grad B: It hurts. It hurts real bad. Grad A: It does! I'm sorry I didn't mean to {disfmarker} Grad E: But that's what you get for coming late to the meeting. Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, oh these are all the same. OK! th this is not very {pause} on target. Grad B: Is your mike on? Grad C: An Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Yeah, it is. Grad B: OK. Grad A: Alright, you guys can continue talking about whatever you were talking about before. Grad E: Um, Grad D: We're talking about this um, alleged paper that we may, just, sort of w Grad A: Oh! Which Johno mentioned to me. Uh - huh. Grad D: Yeah. And I just sort of brought forth the idea that we take a sentence," Where is the Powder - Tower" , Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and we {disfmarker} we p pretend to parse it, we pretend to understand it, and we write about it. Grad E: Hmm. About how {vocalsound} all of these things {disfmarker} Grad A: What's the part that's not pretend? The writing? Grad D: OK, then we pretend to write about. Grad E: The submitting to a major international conference. {comment} {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Tha - {vocalsound} Which conference is it for? Grad D: It's the whatever, architectures, eh you know, where {disfmarker} There is this conference, it's the seventh already international conference, on neu neurally, cognitively, motivated, architectures of natural language processing. Grad A: Oh. Wow. Interesting. Grad D: And the keynote speakers are Tomasello, MacWhinney? Grad A: Whinney. {comment} MacWhinney. Uh - huh. Grad D: We - MacWhinney, I think. Grad E: Grad A: So, interesting, both, like, child language people. Grad D: Yeah. Yep. Grad A: OK. Grad D: So maybe you wanna write something too. Grad A: Yeah, maybe I wanna go. Um, why are they speaking at it if it {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. {vocalsound} Mmm. Grad A: is {disfmarker} is it normally like {disfmarker} like, dialogue systems, or, you know, other NLP - ish things? Grad D: No no no no no no no no. It's {disfmarker} it's like a {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, it's cognitive. OK. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Even neuro. Grad A: And uh, both learning and like, comprehension, production, that kinda stuff. Grad D: Psycho. You could look at the web site. Grad A: OK. Grad D: I'll {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. I don't know about it. Grad D: And the ad and {disfmarker} and the deadline is the fifteenth of June. Grad A: Yeah that's pretty soon. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hey. Plenty of time. Grad E: Why, we've got over a week! Grad D: It would be nice to go write two papers actually. Yeah. And one {disfmarker} one from your perspective, and one from our peve per per Grad A: Mm - hmm. I mean, th that's the kinda thing that maybe like, um, the general uh con sort of like NTL - ish like, whatever, the previous simulation based pers {comment} maybe you're talking about the same kind of thing. A general paper about the approach here would probably be appropriate. And good to do at some point anyway. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Well, I {disfmarker} I also think that if we sort of write about what we have done in the past six months, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we could sort of craft a nice little paper that {pause} if it gets rejected, which could happen, doesn't hurt Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: because it's something we eh {disfmarker} Grad A: Having it is still a good thing. Grad D: having it is a good {disfmarker} good thing. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: It's a nice exercise, it's {disfmarker} I usually enjoy writing papers. It's not {disfmarker} I don't re regard it as a painful thing. Grad A: Mm - hmm. It's fun. Grad D: And um, we should all do more for our publication lists. And. It just never hurts. And Keith and - or Johno will go, probably. Grad B: Will I? Grad A: When is it and where? Grad D: In case of {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm! Grad D: It's on the twenty second of September, in Saarbruecken Germany. Grad A: Ah, it's in Germany. Ah, OK. I s I see. Tomasello's already in Germany anyway, so makes sense. OK. Grad E: Just {disfmarker} Grad A: Um. OK. So, is the {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} Are you just talking about you know, the details of how to do it, or whether to do it, or what it would be? Grad E: What would one possibly put in such a paper? Grad D: What to write about. Grad A: Or what to write about? Grad D: What is our {disfmarker} what's our take home message. What {disfmarker} what do we actually {disfmarker} Because I mean, it {disfmarker} I don't like papers where you just talk about what you plan to do. I mean, it's obvious that we can't do any kind of evaluation, and have no {disfmarker} you know, we can't write an ACL type paper where we say," OK, we've done this Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and now we're whatever percentage better than everybody else" . You know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It's far too early for that. But uh, we {disfmarker} we can tell them what we think. I mean that's {disfmarker} never hurts to try. And um, maybe even {disfmarker} That's maybe the time to introduce the {disfmarker} the new formalism that you guys have cooked up. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: But that {disfmarker} Grad E: Are in the process of {disfmarker} Grad A: How many pages? Grad B: don't they need to finish the formalism? Grad D: It's just like four pages. Grad A: Four pages? Grad D: I mean it's {disfmarker} it's not even a h Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK, so it's a little thing. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Well, you said it was four thousand lines? Grad E: Oh. Grad B: Is that what you s Grad A: OK. Four pages is, like, really not very much space. Grad D: I don't know w Did you look at it? Yeah, it depends on the format. Grad E: Oh my gosh. Oh, I thought you were {disfmarker} I thought we were talking about something which was much more like ten or something. Grad D: No that's {disfmarker} I mean that's actually a problem. It's difficu it's more difficult to write on four pages than on eight. Grad A: It's {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: And it's also difficult to {disfmarker} even if you had a lot of substance, it's hard to demonstrate that in four pages, basically. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad E: That would be hard. Grad A: I mean it's still {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Grad D: Well I uh maybe it's just four thousand lines. I do I don't {disfmarker} They don't want any {disfmarker} They don't have a TeX f style @ @ guide. Grad A: Uh - huh, uh - huh. Grad D: They just want ASCII. Pure ASCII lines, Grad A: OK. Grad D: whatever. Why, for whatever reason, Grad A: Not including figures and such? Grad D: I don't know. I don't know. Very unspecific unfortunately. Grad A: OK. Well, Grad D: We'll just uh {disfmarker} Grad B: I would say that's closer to six pages actually. Four thousand lines of ASCII? Grad D: OK then. It's {disfmarker} Grad E: Four thousand lines. I mean. Isn't a isn't it about fifty s fifty five, sixty lines to a page? Grad D: I d don't quote me on this. This is numbers I {disfmarker} I have from looking o Grad B: How many characters are on a line? Grad D: OK. Grad A: ASCII? Grad D: Let's {disfmarker} let's {disfmarker} wh wh what should we {disfmarker} should {disfmarker} should we uh, um, discuss this over tea and all of us look at the web? Oh, I can't. I'm wizarding today. Grad A: OK, look at the web page? Grad D: Um. Grad A: Wha - w Grad D: Look at the web page and let's talk about it maybe tomorrow afternoon? Grad A: More cues for us to find it are like, neural cons Grad D: Johno will send you a link. Grad A: Oh, you have a link. OK. OK. Grad B: I got an email. Grad A: OK. Grad B: By the way, Keith is comfortable with us calling him" cool Keith" . Grad A: Oh. Cool. Keith. Grad E: He {disfmarker} he decided {vocalsound} I'm chilling in the five - one - O. Grad A: Cool," cool Keith" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Excellent. Grad D: OK. Grad A: That's a very cool T - shirt. Grad E: Thank you. Grad D: And I'm also flying {disfmarker} Grad E: I got this from the two one two. Grad A: New York? Excellent. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Yes? Grad D: I'm flying to Sicily next {disfmarker} in a w two weeks from now, Grad A: Oh, lucky you. Grad D: w and a week of business in Germany. I should mention that for you. And otherwise you haven't missed much, except for a really weird idea, but you'll hear about that soon enough. Grad A: The idea that you and I already know about? That you already told me? Not that {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: No, no, no. Yeah, that is something for the rest of the gang to {disfmarker} to g Grad E: The thing with the goats and the helicopters? Grad D: Change the watchband. It's time to walk the sheep. Grad C: like Grad A: OK. Grad D: Um. Did you catch that allusion? It's time to walk the sheep? Grad E: No. Grad D: It's a a uh presumably one of the Watergate codes they uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh. Grad D: Anyways, th um, um, don't make any plans for spring break next year. That's {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh, shoot. Grad D: That's the other thing. We're gonna do an int EDU internal workshop in Sicily. Grad A: That's what {disfmarker} That's what he says. Grad D: I've already got the funding. Grad A: I kn That's great! Grad D: So, I mean. Grad A: Does that mean {disfmarker} Does that mean you'll get {disfmarker} you'll fly us there? Grad E: We'll see. Grad D: No, that's {disfmarker} Yeah, that's what it means. Grad A: Hhh! OK, cool. Uh - a a Grad B: And he'll put us up, too. Grad E: Huh. Grad A: I know {disfmarker} I know about that part. I know about the {disfmarker} the almond trees and stuff. Not joking. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Name a vegetable, OK. {vocalsound} Oh, um, kiwi? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mmm, too easy. Grad A: Coconut. Grad D: Ki Grad A: Pineapple. See? Mango? OK. OK. Too easy? Grad D: Too easy. Yeah, mangos go everywhere. Grad A: Really? Grad D: So do kiwi. Grad A: Oh. OK, but I was trying to find something that he didn't grow on his farm. Grad D: But coconut anana pineapple, that's {disfmarker} that's tricky, yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Anyway. Cantaloupe. Grad E: So, but we have to decide what, like, sort of the general idea of {disfmarker} Grad B: Potatoes. So. Sorry! Grad E: Um, I mean, we're gonna have an example case um, right? I m the {disfmarker} the point is to {disfmarker} like this" where is" case, or something. Grad D: Yeah, maybe you have {disfmarker} It would be kind of {disfmarker} The paper ha would have, in my vision, a nice flow if we could say, well here is th the {disfmarker} th here is parsing if you wanna do it c right, here is understanding if you wanna do it right, and you know {disfmarker} without going into technical {disfmarker} Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But then in the end we're not doing like those things right yet, right? Would that be clear in the paper or not? Grad D: That would be clear, we would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I mailed around a little paper that I have {disfmarker} Grad A: It would be like, this is the idea. Oh, I didn't get that, Grad D: w we could sort of say, this is {disfmarker} Grad A: did I? Oops. Did I? Grad D: No, Grad A: Oops. {comment} Sorry. Grad B: No, y I don't think you got it. Grad D: See this, if you if you're not around, and don't partake in the discussions, and you don't get any email, Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. Grad D: and Grad A: OK, go on. So parsing done right {vocalsound} is like chicken done right. Grad D: Su So we could {disfmarker} we could say this is what {disfmarker} what's sort of state of the art today. Nuh? Grad A: OK. Grad D: And say, this is bad. Nuh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: And then we can say, uh well what we do is this. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: Parsing done right, interpretation done right, example. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. And Grad A: And how much to get into the cognitive neural part? Grad B: That's the only {disfmarker} That's the question mark. Grad D: We Grad B: Don't you need to reduce it if it's a {disfmarker} or reduce it, if it's a cognitive neuro {disfmarker} Grad A: Well, you don't have t I mean the conference may be cognitive neural, doesn't mean that every paper has to be both. Like, NLP cognitive neural. Grad D: Yeah, and you can {disfmarker} you can just point to the {disfmarker} to the literature, Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: you can say that construction - based You know {disfmarker} Grad A: So i so this paper wouldn't particularly deal with that side although it could reference the NTL - ish sort of, like, um, approach. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: The fact that the methods here are all compatible with or designed to be compatible with whatever, neurological {disfmarker} neuro neuro - biol su stuff. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah, I guess four pages you could {disfmarker} I mean you could definitely {disfmarker} it's definitely possible to do it. It's just {disfmarker} It'd just be small. Like introducing the formalism might be not really possible in detail, but you can use an example of it. Grad E: Well, l looking at {disfmarker} yeah, looking at that paper that {disfmarker} that you had, I mean you know, like, you didn't really explain in detail what was going on in the XML cases or whatever you just sorta said well, you know, here's the general idea, some stuff gets put in there. You know, hopefully you can {disfmarker} you can say something like constituents tells you what the construction is made out of, you know, without going into this intense detail. Grad A: Yeah, yeah. So it be like using the formalism rather than you know, introducing it per se. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad E: Give them the one paragraph whirlwind tour of w w what this is for, Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: and {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: And people will sort of figure out or ask about the bits that are implicit. Grad D: Yeah. So this will be sort of documenting what we think, and documenting what we have in terms of the Bayes - net stuff. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And since there's never a bad idea to document things, no? Grad A: That's th that's definitely a good idea. Grad D: That would be my, uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} we should sketch out the details maybe tomorrow afternoon - ish, if everyone is around. I don't know. You probably wouldn't be part of it. Grad E: I think so. Grad D: Maybe you want? Think about it. Um, You may {disfmarker} may ruin your career forever, if you appear. Grad B: Yeah, you might get blacklisted. Grad D: And um, the uh, other thing, yeah we actually {disfmarker} Have we made any progress on what we decided, uh, last week? I'm sure you read the transcript of last week's meeting in red so sh so you're up to dated {disfmarker} caught up. Grad A: No. Sorry. Grad D: We decided t that we're gonna take a" where is something" question, and pretend we have parsed it, and see what we could possibly hope to observe on the discourse side. Grad B: Remember I came in and I started asking you about how we were sor going to sort out the uh, decision nodes? Grad A: Yes! What'd you say? Grad B: I remember you talking to me, just not what you said. Grad A: I do remember you talking to me. Um, a few more bits. Grad B: Well, there was like we needed to {disfmarker} or uh, in my opinion we need to design a Bayes {disfmarker} another sub - Bayes - net {disfmarker} You know, it was whether {disfmarker} it was whether we would have a Bayes - net on the output and on the input, Grad A: Oh. Grad B: or whether the construction was gonna be in the Bayes - net, Grad A: Oh, yeah. OK. Grad B: a and outside of it, Grad A: OK. Grad B: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So that was {disfmarker} was that the question? Was that what {disfmarker} Grad B: Well that was related to what we were talking about. Grad D: Should I introduce it as SUDO - square? Grad B: Yeah sure. Grad D: We have to put this in the paper. If we write it. This is {disfmarker} this is my only constraint. The {disfmarker} th So. The SUDO - square {nonvocalsound} is, {vocalsound}" Situation" ," User" ," Discourse" , right?" Ontology" . Grad E: Oh I saw the diagram in the office, Grad A: Oh my god, that's amazing! Grad D: Mmm. Yeah. Whatever. Grad A: No way. Grad E: Way! Grad D: Is it? Grad A: Someone's gonna start making Phil Collins jokes. Grad D: Yeah. Hmm? Grad A: Sorry. Grad B: What? Grad E: Oh, god, I hope not. Grad A: You guys are too young. Grad E: You know like" Sussudio" , Grad A: Yeah, come on. Grad E: that horrible, horrible song that should never have been created. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Grad A: I know, that was horrible. Sussudio. Grad B: I've blocked every aspect of Phil Collins out of my mind. Grad C: What? Grad A: I'm sorry, I haven't. Not on purpose. Grad E: in here Grad D: Oh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well, also he's talking about suicide, and that's {disfmarker} that's not a notion I wanna have evoked. Grad A: No, he's not. Really? Grad D: He is. Grad A: Oops. {comment} I didn't really listen to it, Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad A: I was too young. Grad E: Hmm. Grad A: Anyway. Grad E: It sounds too rocking for that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Anyway. So, what's going on here? So what are {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Grad D: So, Grad E: Was wollte der Kuenstler uns damit sagen? Grad A: Stop excluding me. Grad D: OK, so we have tons of little things here, Grad A: I can't believe that that's never been thought of before. Grad D: and we've Grad B: Wait, what are the dots? I don't remember what the dots were. Grad E: Those are little bugs. Grad A: Cool Keith. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Grad D: You know, these are our, whatever, belief - net decision nodes, and they all contribute to these {pause} {nonvocalsound} things down here. Grad B: Oh, oh. Grad A: Wait, wait, what's the middle thing? Grad D: That's EDU. Grad E: That's a c Grad D: e e Our e e e Grad A: But wh I mean {disfmarker} Grad E: That's {disfmarker} Grad D: You. We. Us. Grad A: But what is it? Grad D: Well, in the moment it's a Bayes - net. And it has sort of fifty not - yet - specified interfaces. OK. Eh {pause} I have taken care that we actually can build little interfaces, {nonvocalsound} to other modules that will tell us whether the user likes these things and, n the {disfmarker} or these things, and he {disfmarker} whether he's in a wheelchair or not, Grad A: OK. Is that supposed to be the international sign for interface? Grad D: I think so, yeah. Grad A: Mmm. OK. Grad B: I'd {disfmarker} I'd never seen it before either. Grad A: OK. Just t Cool. Grad D: Mmm. So. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Cuz things fit onto that, see? Grad A: Cool. Grad E: In a vaguely obscene fashion. Grad D: No, this is a RME core by agent design, I don't know. Grad A: That's so great. Grad D: There's maybe a different Grad E: So wait, what a what are these letters again, Situr - {comment} Situation, User, Discourse and Grad D: Situation, user, d ontology. Grad A: User? Grad E: Ontology. Grad A: What about the utterance? Grad C: Discourse. Grad D: That's here. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, discourse. So that's not like context, OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Discourse is all things linguistic, yeah. Grad D: So this {disfmarker} this includes the {disfmarker} the current utterance plus all the previous utterances. Grad A: Interesting, uh - huh. User. Grad D: And for example w i s I Irena Gurevich is going to be here eh, end of July. Grad A: User. Grad D: She's a new linguist working for EML. And what she would like to do for example is great for us. She would like to take the ent ontolog Grad C: Ouch. Grad D: So, we have discussed in terms of the EVA {disfmarker} Grad A: Grateful for us? Grad D: uh {disfmarker} Grad A: Did you just say grateful for us? OK, sorry. Anyway. Grad D: Think of {disfmarker} back at the EVA vector, and Johno coming up with the idea that if the person discussed the {disfmarker} discussed the admission fee, in {disfmarker} eh previously, that might be a good indication that," how do I get to the castle?" , actually he wants to enter. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or, you know," how do I get to X?" discussing the admission fee in the previous utterance, is a good indication. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Grad D: So we don't want a hard code, a set of lexemes, or things, that person's you know, sort of filter, or uh search the discourse history. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: So what would be kind of cool is that if we encounter concepts that are castle, tower, bank, hotel, we run it through the ontology, and the ontology tells us it has um, admission, opening times, it has admission fees, it has this, it has that, and then we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we make a thesaurus lexicon, look up, and then search dynamically through the uh, discourse history for {pause} occurrences of these things in a given window of utterances. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And that might, you know, give us additional input to belief A versus B. Or E versus A. Grad A: So it's not just a particular word's {disfmarker} OK, so the {disfmarker} you're looking for a few keys that you know are cues to {disfmarker} sorry, a few specific cues to some intention. Grad B: You can dynamically look up keys, yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad E: Uh, so, wait {disfmarker} so um, since this {disfmarker} since this sort of technical stuff is going over my head, Grad B: And then grep, basically. Grad E: the {disfmarker} the point is that you uh {disfmarker} that when someone's talking about a castle, you know that it's the sort of thing that people are likely to wanna go into? Or, is it the fact that if there's an admission fee, then one of the things we know about admission fees is that you pay them in order to go in? And then the idea of entering is active in the discourse or something? And then Grad D: Well Grad E: blah - blah - blah? Grad D: the {disfmarker} the idea is even more general. Grad E: I mean. Grad D: The idea is to say, we encounter a certain entity in a {disfmarker} in a in a utterance. So le let's look up everything we {disfmarker} the ontology gives us about that entity, what stuff it does, what roles it has, what parts, whatever it has. Functions. And, then we look in the discourse, whether any of that, or any surface structure corresponding to these roles, functions aaa {comment} has ever occurred. Grad E: Oh, OK. Grad D: And then, the discourse history can t tell us," yeah" , or" no" . Grad E: OK. Grad D: And then it's up for us to decide what to do with it. t So i Grad E: OK. So {disfmarker} No, go ahead. Grad D: So, we may think that if you say um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound}" where is the theater" , um, whether or not he has talked about tickets before, then we {disfmarker} he's probably wanna go there to see something. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or" where is the opera in Par - Paris? , Grad E: OK. Grad D: yeah? Lots of people go to the opera to take pictures of it and to look at it, Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: and lots of people go to attend a performance. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And, the discourse can maybe tell us w what's more likely if we know what to look for in previous statements. And so we can hard code" for opera, look for tickets, look for this, look for that, Grad E: OK. OK. Grad D: or look for Mozart, look for thi" but the smarter way is to go via the ontology and dynamically, then look up u stuff. Grad E: OK. But you're still doing look up so that when the person {disfmarker} So the point is that when the person says," where is it?" then you sort of say, let's go back and look at other things and then decide, rather than the other possibility which is that {pause} all through discourse as they talk about different things {disfmarker} You know like w prior to the" where is it" question they say, you know," how much does it cost to get in, you know, to {disfmarker} to see a movie around here" , um, {vocalsound}" where is the closest theater" {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the point is that by mentioning admission fees, that just sort of stays active now. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: You know. That becomes part of like, their sort of current ongoing active conceptual structure. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: And then, um, over in your Bayes - net or whatever, when {disfmarker} when the person says" where is it" , you've already got, you know since they were talking about admission, and that evokes the idea of entering, um, then when they go and ask" where is it" , then you're Enter node is already active Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: because that's what the person is thinking about. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: I mean that's the sort of cognitive linguistic - y way, Grad D: Yeah, e ultimately that's also what we wanna get at. Grad E: and probably not practical. Grad D: I think that's {disfmarker} that's the correct way. So, of course we have to keep memory of what was the last intention, and how does it fit to this, and what does it tell us, in terms of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what we're examining. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mmm, yeah. Grad D: And furthermore, I mean we can idealize that, you know, people don't change topics, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: but they do. But, even th for that, there is a student of ours who's doing a dialogue act um, recognition module. Grad E: Right. Mm - hmm. Grad D: So, maybe, we're even in a position where we can take your approach, which is of course much better, as to say how {disfmarker} how do these pieces {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. And much harder to r program. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: And much harder to p to program. Grad D: Yeah. How {disfmarker} how do these pieces fit together? Uh - huh. And um. But, OK, nevertheless. So these are issues but we {disfmarker} what we actually decided last week, is to, and this is, again, for your benefit {disfmarker} is to um, pretend we have observed and parsed an utterance such as" where is the Powder - Tower" , or" where is the zoo" , and specify um, what {disfmarker} what we think the {disfmarker} the output uh, observe, out {disfmarker} i input nodes for our Bayes - nets for the sub sub - D, for the discourse bit, should be. So that {disfmarker} And I will {disfmarker} I will then {comment} {vocalsound} come up with the ontology side uh, bits and pieces, so that we can say, OK we {disfmarker} we always just look at this utterance. That's the only utterance we can do, it's hard coded, like Srini, sort of hand parsed, hand crafted, but this is what we hope to be able to observe in general from utterances, and from ontologies, and then we can sort of fiddle with these things to see what it actually produces, in terms of output. Grad E: Uh Grad D: So we need to find out what the" where is X" construction will give us in terms of semantics and {vocalsound} Simspec type things. Grad A: Just {disfmarker} OK. Just" where is X" ? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Or any variants of that. Grad D: Yeah. No! Um, look at it this way, i Yeah. What did we decide. We decided sort of the {disfmarker} the prototypical" where is X" , where you know, we don't really know, does he wanna go there, or just wanna know where it is. Grad E: Well we were Grad D: So the difference of" where is the railway station" , versus where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker}" where is Greenland" . Nuh? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Uh s I was just dancing, sorry. Grad D: We're not videotaping any of this. So. Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} ah {disfmarker} Grad E: So, um, we're supposed to {disfmarker} I mean we're talking about sort of anything that has the semantics of request for location, right? actually? Or, I mean, anyway, the node in the uh {disfmarker} the ultimate, uh, in {disfmarker} in the Bayes - net thing when you're done, the {disfmarker} the node that we're talking about um, is one that says" request for location, true" , or something like that, right? Um, and {disfmarker} and exactly how that gets activated, you know, like whether we want the sentence" how do I get there?" to activate that node or not, you know, that's {disfmarker} that's sort of the issue that sort of the linguistic - y side has to deal with, right? Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} Yea - Nnn Well actually more {disfmarker} m more the other way around. We wanted something that represents uncertainty uh we in terms of going there or just wanting to know where it is, for example. Some generic information. Grad E: OK. Grad D: And so this is prototypically @ @ found in the" where is something" question, surface structure, Grad E: OK. Grad B: We Grad D: which can be p you know, should be maps to something that activates both. I mean the idea is to {disfmarker} Grad B: I don't {disfmarker} Grad E: Alright, OK. Grad B: Hhh. I guess. I don't {disfmarker} Grad D: let's have it fit nicely with the paper. Grad B: I don't see unde how we would be able to distinguish between the two intentions just from the g utterance, though. Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad B: I mean, uh bef or, before we don't {disfmarker} before we cranked it through the Bayes - net. I mean. Grad D: Yeah, we {disfmarker} we wouldn't. That's exactly what we want. Grad B: We would? Grad D: We want to get {disfmarker} No. We wouldn't. Grad B: OK, but then so basically it's just a {disfmarker} for every construction we have a node in the net, right? And we turn on that node. Grad D: Yeah. What {disfmarker} what is this gonna {disfmarker} Grad E: Oy. Grad D: Exactly. What is the uh {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Grad B: And then given that we know that {pause} the construction {pause} has these two things, we can set up probabilities {disfmarker} we can s basically define all the tables for ev for those {disfmarker} Grad D: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} So we have um, i let's assume we {disfmarker} we call something like a loc - X node and a path - X node. And what we actually get if we just look at the discourse," where is X" should activate or should {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hmm. Should be both, whereas maybe" where is X located" , we find from the data, is always just asked when the person wants to know where it is, and" how do I get to" is always asked when the person just wants to know how to get there. Right? So we want to sort of come up with what gets uh, input, and how inter in case of a" where is" question. So what {disfmarker} what would the outcome of {disfmarker} of your parser look like? And, what other discourse information from the discourse history could we hope to get, squeeze out of that utterance? So define the {disfmarker} the input into the Bayes - net {vocalsound} based on what the utterance," where is X" , gives us. So definitely have an Entity node here which is activated via the ontology, Grad A: s Grad D: so" where is X" produces something that is s stands for X, whether it's castle, bank, restroom, toilet, whatever. And then the ontology will tell us {disfmarker} Grad A: That it has a location or something like that? {disfmarker} or th the ontology will tell us where actually it is located? Grad D: No. Not at all. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Where it is located, we have, a user proximity node here somewhere, Grad A: OK. OK. Grad D: e which tells us how far the user {disfmarker} how far away the user is in respect to that uh entity. Grad A: OK. So you're talking about, for instance, the construction obviously involves this entity or refers {disfmarker} refers to this entity, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and from the construction also you know that it is a location {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} or a thing {disfmarker} thing that can be located. Right? Ontology says this thing has a location slot. Sh - and that's the thing that is being {disfmarker} that is the content of the question that's being queried by one interpretation of" where is X" . And another one is, um, path from current {disfmarker} user current location to {comment} that location. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So. So is the question {disfmarker} I mean it's just that I'm not sure what the {disfmarker} Is the question, for this particular construction how we specify that that's the information it provides? Or {disfmarker} or asked for? b Both sides, right? Grad D: Yeah, you don't need to even do that. It's just sort of what {vocalsound} what would be @ @ {comment} observed in uh {disfmarker} in that case. Grad A: Observed when you heard the speaker say" where is X" , or when {disfmarker} when that's been parsed? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So these little circles you have by the D? Is that {disfmarker}? OK. OK. Grad D: That's exactly what we're looking for. Grad B: I d I just {disfmarker} I don't like having {disfmarker} characterizing the constructions with location and path, or li characterizing them like that. Cuz you don't {disfmarker} It seems like in the general case you wouldn't know how {disfmarker} how to characterize them. Grad D: You wouldn't. Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} or, for when. There could be an interpretation that we don't have a node for in the {disfmarker} I mean it just seems like @ @ has to have uh {disfmarker} a node for the construction and then let the chips fall where they may. Versus uh, saying, this construction either can mean location or path. And, in this cas and since {disfmarker} since it can mean either of those things, it would light both of those up. Grad D: It's the same. Grad B: Thoughts? Questions? Grad E: I'm thinking about it. Grad D: It will be the same. Grad E: Um {disfmarker} Grad D: So I think r in here we have" I'll go there" , right? Grad B: Answers? Grad D: And we have our Info - on. So in my c my case, this would sort of make this {pause} happy, and this would make the Go - there happy. What you're saying is we have a Where - X question, Where - X node, that makes both happy. Right? That's what you're proposing, which is, in my mind just as fine. So w if we have a construction {pause} node," where is X" , it's gonna both get the po posterior probability that {disfmarker} it's Info - on up, Grad B: Mmm, yeah. Grad D: Info - on is True - up, and that Go - there is True - up, as well. Which would be exactly analogous to what I'm proposing is, this makes {disfmarker} uh makes something here true, and this makes something {disfmarker} also something here true, and this makes this True - up, and this makes this True - up as well. Grad E: I kinda like it better without that extra level of indirection too. You know with {disfmarker} with this points to this points to that, and so on because {vocalsound} I don't know, it {disfmarker} Grad A: Is - uh, Grad D: Yeah, because we get {disfmarker} we get tons of constructions I think. Because, you know, mmm people have many ways of asking for the same thing, Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, sure. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So un Grad B: I change I changed my mind actually. Grad A: So I agree with that. Grad E: OK. Grad A: I have a different kinda question, might be related, which is, OK so implicitly everything in EDU, we're always inferring the speaker intent, right? Like, what they want either, the information that they want, or {disfmarker} It's always information that they want probably, of some kind. Right? Or I {disfmarker} I don't know, or what's something that they {disfmarker} Grad D: The system doesn't massage you, no. No. Grad A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} OK. So, um, let's see. So I don't know if the {disfmarker} I mean i if th just there's more s here that's not shown that you {disfmarker} it's already like part of the system whatever, but," where is X" , like, the fact that it is, you know, a speech - act, whatever, it is a question. It's a question that, um, queries on some particular thing X, and X is that location. There's, like, a lot of structure in representing that. Grad D: Yep. Yeah. Grad A: So that seems different from just having the node" location - X" and that goes into EDU, right? Grad D: Yeah. {vocalsound} Precisely. That's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} Grad A: So tha is that what you're t talking about? Grad D: So, w Exactly. We have su we have specified two. Grad A: wh what kinds of structure we want. Grad D: OK, the next one would be here, just for mood. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: The next one would be what we can squeeze out of the uh I don't know, maybe we wanna observe the uh, um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh the length of {disfmarker} of the words used, and, or the prosody Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: and g a and t make conclusions about the user's intelligence. Grad A: OK. So in some ways {disfmarker} Grad D: I don't know, Grad A: um, so in some ways in the other sort of parallel set of mo more linguistic meetings we've been talking about possible semantics of some construction. Grad D: yeah. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right? Where it was the simulation that's, according to it {disfmarker} you know, that {disfmarker} that corresponds to it, and as well the {disfmarker} as discourse, whatever, conte infor in discourse information, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: such as the mood, and, you know, other stuff. So, are we looking for a sort of abbreviation of that, that's tailored to this problem? Cuz that {disfmarker} that has, you know, basically, you know, s it's in progress still it's in development still, but it definitely has various feature slots, attributes, um, bindings between things {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. U that's exactly r um, why I'm proposing {disfmarker} It's too early to have {disfmarker} to think of them {disfmarker} of all of these discourse things that one could possibly observe, Grad A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. Grad D: so let's just assume Grad A: For the subset of {disfmarker} Grad D: human beings are not allowed to ask anything but" where is X" . Grad A: OK. Grad D: This is the only utterance in the world. What could we observe from that? Grad A: OK. That exactly" where is X" , Grad D: In ter Grad A: not the {disfmarker} the choices of" where is X" or" how do I get to X" . Just" where is X" . Grad D: Just {disfmarker} just" where is X" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad D: And, but you know, do it {disfmarker} do it in such a way that we know that people can also say," is the town hall in front of the bank" , so that we need something like a w WH focus. Nuh? Should be {disfmarker} should be there, that, you know, this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} whatever we get from the {disfmarker} Grad A: Wait, so do, or do not take other kinds of constructions into account? Grad D: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you can, oh definitely do, Grad A: OK. Where possible. OK. Grad D: where possible. Right? If i if {disfmarker} if it's not at all triggered by our thing, then it's irrelevant, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and it doesn't hurt to leave it out for the moment. Um, but {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Um, it seems like for instance," where is X" , the fact that it might mean um," tell me how to get to X" , like {disfmarker} Do y So, would you wanna say that those two are both, like {disfmarker} Those are the two interpretations, right? the {disfmarker} the ones that are location or path. So, you could say that the s construction is a question asking about this location, and then you can additionally infer, if they're asking about the location, it's because they wanna go to that place, in which case, the {disfmarker} you're jumping a step {disfmarker} step and saying," oh, I know where it is Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: but I also know how to get {disfmarker} they wanna seem {disfmarker} they seem to wanna get there so I'm gonna tell them" . So there's like structure Grad E: Right, th this {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker} it's not that this is sort of like semantically ambiguous between these two. Grad A: i do you kn sort of uh, that {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: It's really about this but why would you care about this? Well, it's because you also want to know this, or something like that right? Grad A: So it's like you infer the speaker intent, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and then infer a plan, a larger plan from that, for which you have the additional information, Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: you're just being extra helpful. Grad D: Yep. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Think {disfmarker} Uh, well this is just a mental exercise. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: If you think about, focus on this question, how would you design {pause} that? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Is it {disfmarker} do you feel confident about saying this is part of the language already to {disfmarker} to detect those plans, and why would anyone care about location, if not, you know and so forth. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Or do you actually, I mean this is perfectly legitimate, and I {disfmarker} I would not have any problems with erasing this and say, that's all we can activate, based on the utterance out of context. Grad A: Mm - hmm. And just by an additional link {disfmarker} Oh. Grad D: What? Grad A: Right, Grad E: Right. Grad A: like, Grad D: And then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the miracle that we get out the intention, Go - there, happens, based on what we know about that entity, about the user, about his various beliefs, goals, desires, blah - blah - blah. Grad A: with context and enough user information, yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Absolutely fine. But this is the sort of thing, I {disfmarker} I propose that we think about, Grad A: OK. Grad D: so that we actually end up with um, um, nodes for the discourse and ontology so that we can put them into our Bayes - net, never change them, so we {disfmarker} all there is is" where is X" , and, Eva can play around with the observed things, and we can run our better JavaBayes, and have it produce some output. And for the first time in th in {disfmarker} in the world, we look at our output, and um {disfmarker} and see uh whether it {disfmarker} it's any good. Grad A: OK. Grad D: You know? I mean, Grad E: Here's hoping. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: Here's hoping. Right? Now cross your fingers. Grad D: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I mean, for me this is just a ba matter of curiosity, I wanna {disfmarker} would like to look at uh, what this ad - hoc process of designing a belief - net would actually produce. Grad E: Yeah. {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: If {disfmarker} if we ask it where is something. And, maybe it also h enables you to think about certain things more specifically, um, come up with interesting questions, to which you can find interesting answers. And, additionally it might fit in really nicely with the paper. Because if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we want an example for the paper, I suggest there it is. Grad E: Um - hmm. Yeah. Grad D: So th this might be a nice opening paragraph for the paper as saying," you know people look at kinds of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} at ambiguities" , and um, in the literature there's" bank" and whatever kinds of garden path phenomenon. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And we can say, well, that's all nonsense. A, A, uh these things are never really ambiguous in discourse, B, B, don't ever occur really in discourse, but normal statements that seem completely unambiguous, such as" where is the blah - blah" , actually are terribly complex, and completely ambiguous. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Grad D: And so, what every everybody else has been doing so far in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} you know, has been completely nonsensical, and can all go into the wastepaper bin, and the only {disfmarker} Grad E: That's always a good way to begin. Yeah. Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the only {disfmarker} Grad B: I am great. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: All others are useless. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: That's good. Grad D: Nice overture, but, you know, just not really {disfmarker} OK, I'm eja exaggerating, but that might be, you know, saying" hey" , you know, some stuff is {disfmarker} is actually complex, if you look at it in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the vacuum Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and {disfmarker} and ceases to be complex in reality. And some stuff that's as {disfmarker} that's absolutely straightforward in the vacuum, is actually terribly complex in reality. Would be nice sort of, uh, also, nice, um bottom - up linguistics, um, type message. Grad E: Mm - hmm. True. Grad D: Versus the old top - down school. I'm running out of time. OK. Grad B: When do you need to start wizarding? Grad D: At four ten. OK, this is the other bit of news. The subjects today know Fey, so she can't be here, and do the wizarding. So I'm gonna do the wizarding Grad E: Huh. Grad D: and Thilo's gonna do the instructing. Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: Also we're getting a {disfmarker} a person who just got fired uh, from her job. Uh a person from Oakland who is interested in maybe continuing the wizard bit once Fey leaves in August. And um, she's gonna look at it today. Which is good news in the sense that if we want to continue, after the thir thir after July, we can. We could. And, um {disfmarker} and that's also maybe interesting for Keith and whoever, if you wanna get some more stuff into the data collection. Remember this, we can completely change the set - up any time we want. Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: Look at the results we've gotten so far for the first, whatever, fifty some subjects? Grad A: Fifty? You've had fifty so far, or {disfmarker}? Grad D: No, we're approaching twenty now. Grad A: OK. Grad D: But, until Fey is leaving, we surely will hit the {disfmarker} some of the higher numbers. Grad A: Yeah. Hmm. Grad D: And um, so that's cool. Can a do more funky stuff. Grad E: Sure. Yeah, I'll have to look more into that data. Is that around? Like, cuz that's pretty much getting posted or something right away when you get it? Grad D: Um. Grad E: Or {disfmarker}? I guess it has to be transcribed, huh? Grad D: We have uh, eh found someone here who's hand st hand transcribing the first twelve. Grad E: OK. Grad D: First dozen subjects Grad E: Uh - huh. Grad D: just so we can build a {disfmarker} a language model for the recognizer. Grad E: OK. Grad D: But, um {disfmarker} So those should be available soon. Grad E: OK. Grad D: The first twelve. And I can ch ch st e Grad E: You know {disfmarker} I mean you know that I {disfmarker} that I looked at the first {disfmarker} the first one and got enough data to keep me going for, you know, probably most of July. So. {vocalsound} But, um. Yeah, a probably not the right way to do it actually. Grad D: But you can listen to {disfmarker} a y y y You can listen to all of them from your Solaris box. Grad E: OK. Grad D: If you want. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's always fun.

An idea for future work was suggested during the visit of the german project manager: the possibility to use the same system for language generation. Setting up certain inputs in the Bayes-net would imply certain intentions, which would trigger dialogues. Having a system able to ask questions could contribute significantly to training the belief-net. The possibility of incorporating language generation into the system will have to be discussed further.

tr-sq-729

tr-sq-729_0

Why was the project fit to be included in a conference paper? Grad E: As usual. Grad B: Yes. Whew! I almost forgot {pause} about the meeting. I woke up twenty minutes ago, thinking, what did I forget? Grad D: It's great how the br brain sort of does that. Grad E: Something's not right here. Grad B: Internal alarms. Grad D: OK. So the news for me is A, my forthcoming travel plans Grad B: Yes. Grad D: in two weeks from today? Yeah? More or less? I'll be off to Sicily and Germany for a couple, three days. Grad B: Now what are y what are you doing there? I forgot? Grad D: OK, I'm flying to Sicily basically to drop off Simon there with his grandparents. And then I'm flying to Germany t to go to a MOKU - Treffen which is the meeting of all the module - responsible people in SmartKom, Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: and, represent ICI and myself I guess there. And um. That's the mmm actual reason. And then I'm also going up to EML for a day, and then I'm going to {vocalsound} meet the very big boss, Wolfgang Walster, in Saarbruecken and the System system integration people in Kaiserslautern and then I'm flying back via Sicily pick up my son come back here on the fourth of July. And uh. Grad E: What a great time to be coming back to the Grad B: God bless America. Grad E: You'll see maybe {disfmarker} see the fireworks from your plane coming in. Grad D: And I'm sure all the {disfmarker} the people at the airport will be happy to work on that day. Grad E: Yeah. You'll get even better service than usual. Grad B: Wait, aren't you flying on Lufthansa though? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Alitalia. Grad B: Oh. Well then the {disfmarker} you know, it's not a big deal. Once you get to the United States it'll be a problem, but Grad D: Yeah. And um, that's that bit of news, and the other bit of news is we had {disfmarker} you know, uh, I was visited by my German project manager who A, did like what we did {disfmarker} what we're doing here, and B, is planning to come here either three weeks in July or three weeks in August, to actually work. Grad B: On {disfmarker}? Grad D: With us. Grad B: Oh. Grad D: And we sat around and we talked and he came up {disfmarker} we came up {disfmarker} with a pretty strange idea. And that's what I'm gonna lay on you now. And um, maybe it might be ultimately the most interesting thing for Eva because she has been known to complain about the fact that the stuff we do here is not weird enough. Grad C: OK. Grad D: So this is so weird it should even make you happy. Grad C: Uh. {comment} OK. Grad E: Oh great. Grad D: Imagine if you will, {vocalsound} that we have a system that does all that understanding that we want it to do based on utterances. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It should be possible to make that system produce questions. So if you have the knowledge of how to interpret" where is X?" under given conditions, situational, user, discourse and ontological {vocalsound} conditions, you should also be able to make that same system ask" where is X?" Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: in a sper certain way, based on certain intentions. So in instead of just being able to observe phenomenon, um, and, guess the intention we might be able just to sort of give it an intention, and make it produce an utterance. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Well, like in AI they generally do the take in, and then they also do the generation phase, like Nancy's thing. Or uh, you remember, in the {disfmarker} the hand thing in one - eighty - two, like not only was it able to recognize but it was also to generate based upon situations. You mean that sort of thing? Grad D: Absolutely. Grad B: OK. Grad D: And once you've done that what we can do is have the system ask itself. And answer, understand the answer, ask something else, and enter a dialogue with itself. So the {disfmarker} the ba basic {disfmarker} the same idea as having two chess computers play against each other. Grad E: Except this smacks a little bit more of a schizophrenic computer than AI. Grad D: Yeah you c if you want, you can have two parallel {vocalsound} machines um, asking each other. What would that give us? Would A be something completely weird and strange, and B, i if you look at all the factors, we will never observe people let's say, in wheelchairs under {disfmarker} you know, in {disfmarker} under all conditions, Grad E: That's good. Grad D: you know, when they say" X" , and there is a ride at the goal, and the parking is good, we can never collect enough data. It's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's not possible. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Right, right. Grad D: But maybe one could do some learning. If you get the system to speak to itself, you may find n break downs and errors and you may be able to learn. And make it more robust, maybe learn new things. And um, so there's no {disfmarker} no end of potential things one could get out of it, if that works. And he would like to actually work on that with us. Grad B: Well then, he probably should be coming back a year {pause} from now. Grad D: So Yeah, I w See the {disfmarker} the generation bit, making the system generate {disfmarker} generate something, {comment} is {disfmarker} shouldn't be too hard. Grad B: Well, once the system understands things. Grad E: Yeah. No problem. Grad B: I just don't think {disfmarker} I think we're probably a year away from getting the system to understand things. Grad D: Yeah. Well, if we can get it to understand one thing, like our" where is" run through we can also, maybe, e make it say, or ask" where is X?" Or not. Grad E: Mmm, I don't know. e I'm sort of {disfmarker} have the impression that getting it to say the right thing in the right circumstances is much more difficult than getting it to understand something given the circumstances and so on, you know, I mean just cuz it's sort of harder to learn to speak correctly in a foreign language, rather than learning to understand it. Right? I mean Grad D: Grad E: just the fact that we'll get {disfmarker} The point is that getting it to understand one construction doesn't mean that it will n always know exactly when it's correct to use that construction. Right? Grad D: It's {disfmarker} it's uh {disfmarker} Well, I've {disfmarker} I've done generation and language production research for fo four {disfmarker} four and a half years. And so it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} you're right, it's not the same as the understanding. It's in some ways easier and some ways harder. nuh? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: But, um, I think it'd be fun to look at it, or into that question. Grad E: Nnn, yeah. Grad D: It's a pretty strange idea. And so that's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Grad B: The basic idea I guess would be to give {disfmarker} allow the system to have intentions, basically? Cuz that's basically what needs to be added to the system for it. Grad D: Well, look at th eee, I think even {disfmarker} think even {disfmarker} What it {disfmarker} would be the {disfmarker} the prior intention. So let's uh {disfmarker} uh, let's say we have this {disfmarker} Grad B: Well we'd have to seed that, I mean. Grad D: No. Let's {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} we have some {disfmarker} some top - down processing, given certain setting. OK, now we change nothing, and just say ask something. Right? Grad B: Grad D: What would it ask? Grad B: It wouldn't know what to ask. I mean. Grad D: It shur Grad B: Unless it was in a situation. We'd have to set up a situation where, it didn't know where something was and it wanted to go there. Grad D: Yeah! Grad C: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Yeah. Grad B: Which means that we'd need to set up an intention inside of the system. Right? Which is basically," I don't know where something is and I need to go there" . Grad D: Eh, n Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Ooh, do we really need to do that? Because, Grad B: Well, no I guess not. Excel Grad D: s It's {disfmarker} i I know it's {disfmarker} it's strange, but look at it {disfmarker} look at our Bayes - net. If we don't have {disfmarker} Let's assume we don't have any input from the language. Right? So there's also nothing we could query the ontology, but we have a certain user setting. If you just ask, what is the likelihood of that person wanting to enter some {disfmarker} something, it'll give you an answer. Grad B: Sure. Grad D: Right? That's just how they are. And so, @ @ whatever that is, it's the generic default intention. That it would find out. Which is, wanting to know where something is, maybe nnn {disfmarker} and wanting {disfmarker} I don't know what it's gonna be, but there's gonna be something that Grad E: Well you're not gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna get a variety of intentions out of that then? I mean, you're just talking about like given this user, what's the th what is it {disfmarker} what is that user most likely to want to do? Grad D: Well you can observe some user and context stuff and ask, what's the posterior probabilities of all of our decision nodes. Grad E: And, have it talk about {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: You could even say," let's take all the priors, let's observe nothing" , and query all the posterior probabilities. It - it's gonna tell us something. Right? Grad B: Well, it will d r assign values to all the nodes. Yes. Grad D: And {disfmarker} Yes. And come up with posterior probabilities for all the values of the decision nodes. Which, if we have an algorithm that filters out whatever the {disfmarker} the best or the most consistent answer out of that, will give us the intention ex nihilo. And that is exactly what would happen if we ask it to produce an utterance, it would be b based on that extension, ex nihilo, which we don't know what it is, but it's there. So we wouldn't even have to {disfmarker} t to kick start it by giving it a certain intention or observing anything on the decision node. And whatever that {disfmarker} maybe that would lead to" what is the castle?" , Grad B: I'm just {disfmarker} Grad D: or" what is that whatever" . Grad B: I guess what I'm afraid of is if we don't, you know, set up a {pause} situation, {comment} we'll just get a bunch of garbage out, like you know, everything's exactly thirty percent. Grad D: No {disfmarker} Grad C: Mmm. Grad D: Yeah. So what we actually then need to do is {disfmarker} is write a little script that changes all the settings, you know, go goes through all the permutations, which is {disfmarker} we did a {disfmarker} didn't we calculate that once? Grad B: Well that was {disfmarker} that was absurdly low, in the last meeting, Grad D: It's a {disfmarker} Grad C: Uh, Grad B: cuz I went and looked at it cuz I was thinking, that could not be right, and it would {disfmarker} it was on the order of twenty output nodes and something like twenty {disfmarker} Grad C: And like thirty input nodes Grad B: thirty input nodes. Grad C: or some {disfmarker} Grad B: So to test every output node, uh, would at least {disfmarker} Let's see, so it would be two to the thirty for every output node? Which is very th very large. Grad D: Oh! That's n Grad E: Oh. Grad D: that's {disfmarker} that's nothing for those neural guys. I mean, they train for millions and millions of epochs. Grad B: Well, I'm talking about Grad D: So. Grad B: Oh, I was gonna take a drink of my water. I'm talking about billions and billions and billions and a number {disfmarker} two to the thirty is like a Bhaskara said, we had calculated out and Bhaskara believes that it's larger than the number of particles in the universe. And if i Grad E: I don't know if that's right or not. Th - that's big. That's just {disfmarker} That's uh {disfmarker} It's a billion, right? Grad B: Two to the thirty? Well, two to the thirty is a billion, but if we have to do it two to the twenty times, then that's a very very large number. Grad E: Right. Argh. Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah, that's big. Grad B: Cuz you have to query the node, for every a uh, or query the net two to the twenty times. Grad E: Sure. Alright. Grad B: Or not two to th excuse me, twenty times. Grad E: OK. So, is it t comes to twenty billion or something? Grad B: Yes. As far as {disfmarker} Grad E: That's pretty big, though. Grad B: That's @ @ {disfmarker} That's big. Actually {disfmarker} Oh! We calculated a different number before. How did we do that? Grad C: Hmm. Grad E: I remember there being some other one floating around. But anyway, uh. Grad C: I don't really know. Grad E: Yeah, it's g Anyway, the point is that given all of these different factors, it's uh e it's {disfmarker} it's still going to be impossible to run through all of the possible situations or whatever. Grad C: Ooo, it's just big. Grad E: But I mean, this'll get us a bit closer at least, right? I mean. Grad B: If it takes us a second to do, for each one, and let's say it's twenty billion, {comment} then that's twenty billion seconds, which is {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Eva, do the math. Grad C: Can't. Grad E: Long! Grad C: Grad B: Hours and hours and hours and hours. But we can do randomized testing. Grad E: Tah - dah! Grad B: Which probabilistically will be good enough. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. So, it be it it's an idea that one could n for {disfmarker} for example run {disfmarker} run past, um, what's that guy's name? You know? He - he's usually here. Tsk. J J Jer - Jerj Grad E: Here in the group? Jerry Feldman. Grad D: Oh, yeah. That's the guy. We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we g Grad B: Wait, who? Grad E: Yeah, i that would the g the bald guy. Grad B: Oh! My advisor! Grad D: And um. so this is just an idea that's floating around and we'll see what happens. And um, hmm, what other news do I have? Well we fixed some more things from the SmartKom system, but that's not really of general interest, Um, Oh! Questions, yeah. I'll ask Eva about the E Bayes and she's working on that. How is the generation XML thing? Grad B: I'm gonna work on that today and tomorrow. Grad D: OK. No need to do it today or tomorrow even. Do it next week or {disfmarker} Grad B: I'm gonna finish it today, uh hopefully. Grad D: OK. Grad B: I wanna do one of those things where I stay here. Cuz uh, if I go home, I can't finish it. I've tried about five times so far, where I work for a while and then I'm like, I'm hungry. So I go home, and then I think {disfmarker} Grad E: I'm not going back. Grad B: Yeah. Either that or I think to myself, I can work at home. And then I try to work at home, but I fail miserably. Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Like I ended up at Blakes last night. Grad E: Non - conducive. Grad B: No. I almost got into a brawl. But I did not finish the uh, But I've been looking into it. I th @ @ It's not like it's a blank slate. I found everything that I need and stu and uh, Grad D: But st Grad B: At the b uh furthermore, I told Jerry that I was gonna finish it before he got back. So. Grad D: OK. Grad E: That's approaching. He's coming back when? Uh next {disfmarker} Grad B: Well, I think {disfmarker} we think we'll see him definitely on Tuesday for the next {disfmarker} Or, no, wait. The meetings are on Thursday. Grad D: Maybe. Grad B: Maybe. Grad D: Who knows. Grad E: OK. Grad B: Well, we'll see him next week. Grad E: Alright. Grad D: That's good. Yeah. The paper. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: I was thinking about that. Grad D: Hmm. Grad B: I think I will try to work on the SmartKom stuff and I'll {disfmarker} if I can finish it today, I'll help you with that tomorrow, if you work on it? I don't have a problem with us working on it though? So. Grad D: OK. Grad B: And it {disfmarker} Grad D: So you would say it's funky cool. Grad B: I mean we just {disfmarker} I mean it wouldn't hurt to write up a paper, cuz then, I mean, yeah {disfmarker} I was talking with Nancy and Nancy said, you don't know whether you have a paper to {pause} write up until you write it up. So. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Well Grad B: And since Jerry's coming back, we can run it by him too. So. Grad D: Yep. Um, what's your input? Grad E: Well, um, I don't have much experience with uh, conference papers for compu in the computer science realm, and so when I looked at what you had, which was apparently a complete submission, I just sort of said what {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I didn't really know what to do with it, like, this is the sort of the basic outline of the system or whatever, or {disfmarker} or" here's an idea" , right? That's what that paper was," here's {disfmarker} here's one possible thing you could do" , Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: short, eight pages, and I just don't know what you have in mind for expanding. Like I'd {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I didn't do is go to the web site of the conference and look at what they're looking for or whatever. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Well, it seems to me that um {disfmarker} Grad B: Wait, is this a computer science conference or is it a {disfmarker} Grad D: Um, well it's more {disfmarker} It's both, right? It's {disfmarker} it's sort of t cognitive, neural, psycho, linguistic, but all for the sake of doing computer science. So it's sort of cognitive, psycho, neural, plausibly motivated, architectures of natural language processing. So it seems pretty interdisciplinary, and I mean, w w the keynote speaker is Tomasello and blah - blah - blah, Grad E: Right. Oh, yeah. Grad D: so, W the {disfmarker} the question is what could we actually do and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and keep a straight face while doing it. Grad B: Well, I really can't keep a straight face doing anything. Grad D: And i My idea is, Grad E: Setting that aside. Grad D: well, you can say we have done a little bit and that's this, and uh sort of the rest is position paper," we wanna also do that" . Which is not too good. Might be more interesting to do something like let's assume um, we're right, we have as Jerry calls it, a delusion of adequacy, and take a" where is X" sentence, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and say," we will just talk about this, and how we cognitively, neurally, psycho - linguistically, construction grammar - ally, motivated, envision uh, understanding that" . Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: So we can actually show how we parse it. That should be able to {disfmarker} we should be able to come up with, you know, a sort of a {disfmarker} a parse. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's on, just {disfmarker} just put it on. Grad A: I'm OK. Grad B: Did Ben harass you? Grad A: Yes. Grad B: Good. Grad A: Was he supposed to harass me? Grad B: Yes. Grad A: Well, he just told me that you came looking for me. Grad D: You don Grad B: Oh. Grad D: Grad A: figure this out. Grad D: You will suffer in hell, you know that. Grad E: Backwards. There's a s diagram somewhere which tells you how to put that {disfmarker} Grad A: I know, I didn't understand that either! Grad B: No wait. You have to put it on exactly like that, Grad D: This is it. Yeah. Grad B: so put that {disfmarker} those things over your ears like that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: See the p how the plastic things ar arch out like that? There we go. Grad A: OK. It hurts. Grad B: It hurts. It hurts real bad. Grad A: It does! I'm sorry I didn't mean to {disfmarker} Grad E: But that's what you get for coming late to the meeting. Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, oh these are all the same. OK! th this is not very {pause} on target. Grad B: Is your mike on? Grad C: An Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Yeah, it is. Grad B: OK. Grad A: Alright, you guys can continue talking about whatever you were talking about before. Grad E: Um, Grad D: We're talking about this um, alleged paper that we may, just, sort of w Grad A: Oh! Which Johno mentioned to me. Uh - huh. Grad D: Yeah. And I just sort of brought forth the idea that we take a sentence," Where is the Powder - Tower" , Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and we {disfmarker} we p pretend to parse it, we pretend to understand it, and we write about it. Grad E: Hmm. About how {vocalsound} all of these things {disfmarker} Grad A: What's the part that's not pretend? The writing? Grad D: OK, then we pretend to write about. Grad E: The submitting to a major international conference. {comment} {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Tha - {vocalsound} Which conference is it for? Grad D: It's the whatever, architectures, eh you know, where {disfmarker} There is this conference, it's the seventh already international conference, on neu neurally, cognitively, motivated, architectures of natural language processing. Grad A: Oh. Wow. Interesting. Grad D: And the keynote speakers are Tomasello, MacWhinney? Grad A: Whinney. {comment} MacWhinney. Uh - huh. Grad D: We - MacWhinney, I think. Grad E: Grad A: So, interesting, both, like, child language people. Grad D: Yeah. Yep. Grad A: OK. Grad D: So maybe you wanna write something too. Grad A: Yeah, maybe I wanna go. Um, why are they speaking at it if it {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. {vocalsound} Mmm. Grad A: is {disfmarker} is it normally like {disfmarker} like, dialogue systems, or, you know, other NLP - ish things? Grad D: No no no no no no no no. It's {disfmarker} it's like a {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, it's cognitive. OK. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Even neuro. Grad A: And uh, both learning and like, comprehension, production, that kinda stuff. Grad D: Psycho. You could look at the web site. Grad A: OK. Grad D: I'll {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. I don't know about it. Grad D: And the ad and {disfmarker} and the deadline is the fifteenth of June. Grad A: Yeah that's pretty soon. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hey. Plenty of time. Grad E: Why, we've got over a week! Grad D: It would be nice to go write two papers actually. Yeah. And one {disfmarker} one from your perspective, and one from our peve per per Grad A: Mm - hmm. I mean, th that's the kinda thing that maybe like, um, the general uh con sort of like NTL - ish like, whatever, the previous simulation based pers {comment} maybe you're talking about the same kind of thing. A general paper about the approach here would probably be appropriate. And good to do at some point anyway. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Well, I {disfmarker} I also think that if we sort of write about what we have done in the past six months, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we could sort of craft a nice little paper that {pause} if it gets rejected, which could happen, doesn't hurt Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: because it's something we eh {disfmarker} Grad A: Having it is still a good thing. Grad D: having it is a good {disfmarker} good thing. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: It's a nice exercise, it's {disfmarker} I usually enjoy writing papers. It's not {disfmarker} I don't re regard it as a painful thing. Grad A: Mm - hmm. It's fun. Grad D: And um, we should all do more for our publication lists. And. It just never hurts. And Keith and - or Johno will go, probably. Grad B: Will I? Grad A: When is it and where? Grad D: In case of {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm! Grad D: It's on the twenty second of September, in Saarbruecken Germany. Grad A: Ah, it's in Germany. Ah, OK. I s I see. Tomasello's already in Germany anyway, so makes sense. OK. Grad E: Just {disfmarker} Grad A: Um. OK. So, is the {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} Are you just talking about you know, the details of how to do it, or whether to do it, or what it would be? Grad E: What would one possibly put in such a paper? Grad D: What to write about. Grad A: Or what to write about? Grad D: What is our {disfmarker} what's our take home message. What {disfmarker} what do we actually {disfmarker} Because I mean, it {disfmarker} I don't like papers where you just talk about what you plan to do. I mean, it's obvious that we can't do any kind of evaluation, and have no {disfmarker} you know, we can't write an ACL type paper where we say," OK, we've done this Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and now we're whatever percentage better than everybody else" . You know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It's far too early for that. But uh, we {disfmarker} we can tell them what we think. I mean that's {disfmarker} never hurts to try. And um, maybe even {disfmarker} That's maybe the time to introduce the {disfmarker} the new formalism that you guys have cooked up. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: But that {disfmarker} Grad E: Are in the process of {disfmarker} Grad A: How many pages? Grad B: don't they need to finish the formalism? Grad D: It's just like four pages. Grad A: Four pages? Grad D: I mean it's {disfmarker} it's not even a h Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK, so it's a little thing. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Well, you said it was four thousand lines? Grad E: Oh. Grad B: Is that what you s Grad A: OK. Four pages is, like, really not very much space. Grad D: I don't know w Did you look at it? Yeah, it depends on the format. Grad E: Oh my gosh. Oh, I thought you were {disfmarker} I thought we were talking about something which was much more like ten or something. Grad D: No that's {disfmarker} I mean that's actually a problem. It's difficu it's more difficult to write on four pages than on eight. Grad A: It's {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: And it's also difficult to {disfmarker} even if you had a lot of substance, it's hard to demonstrate that in four pages, basically. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad E: That would be hard. Grad A: I mean it's still {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Grad D: Well I uh maybe it's just four thousand lines. I do I don't {disfmarker} They don't want any {disfmarker} They don't have a TeX f style @ @ guide. Grad A: Uh - huh, uh - huh. Grad D: They just want ASCII. Pure ASCII lines, Grad A: OK. Grad D: whatever. Why, for whatever reason, Grad A: Not including figures and such? Grad D: I don't know. I don't know. Very unspecific unfortunately. Grad A: OK. Well, Grad D: We'll just uh {disfmarker} Grad B: I would say that's closer to six pages actually. Four thousand lines of ASCII? Grad D: OK then. It's {disfmarker} Grad E: Four thousand lines. I mean. Isn't a isn't it about fifty s fifty five, sixty lines to a page? Grad D: I d don't quote me on this. This is numbers I {disfmarker} I have from looking o Grad B: How many characters are on a line? Grad D: OK. Grad A: ASCII? Grad D: Let's {disfmarker} let's {disfmarker} wh wh what should we {disfmarker} should {disfmarker} should we uh, um, discuss this over tea and all of us look at the web? Oh, I can't. I'm wizarding today. Grad A: OK, look at the web page? Grad D: Um. Grad A: Wha - w Grad D: Look at the web page and let's talk about it maybe tomorrow afternoon? Grad A: More cues for us to find it are like, neural cons Grad D: Johno will send you a link. Grad A: Oh, you have a link. OK. OK. Grad B: I got an email. Grad A: OK. Grad B: By the way, Keith is comfortable with us calling him" cool Keith" . Grad A: Oh. Cool. Keith. Grad E: He {disfmarker} he decided {vocalsound} I'm chilling in the five - one - O. Grad A: Cool," cool Keith" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Excellent. Grad D: OK. Grad A: That's a very cool T - shirt. Grad E: Thank you. Grad D: And I'm also flying {disfmarker} Grad E: I got this from the two one two. Grad A: New York? Excellent. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Yes? Grad D: I'm flying to Sicily next {disfmarker} in a w two weeks from now, Grad A: Oh, lucky you. Grad D: w and a week of business in Germany. I should mention that for you. And otherwise you haven't missed much, except for a really weird idea, but you'll hear about that soon enough. Grad A: The idea that you and I already know about? That you already told me? Not that {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: No, no, no. Yeah, that is something for the rest of the gang to {disfmarker} to g Grad E: The thing with the goats and the helicopters? Grad D: Change the watchband. It's time to walk the sheep. Grad C: like Grad A: OK. Grad D: Um. Did you catch that allusion? It's time to walk the sheep? Grad E: No. Grad D: It's a a uh presumably one of the Watergate codes they uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh. Grad D: Anyways, th um, um, don't make any plans for spring break next year. That's {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh, shoot. Grad D: That's the other thing. We're gonna do an int EDU internal workshop in Sicily. Grad A: That's what {disfmarker} That's what he says. Grad D: I've already got the funding. Grad A: I kn That's great! Grad D: So, I mean. Grad A: Does that mean {disfmarker} Does that mean you'll get {disfmarker} you'll fly us there? Grad E: We'll see. Grad D: No, that's {disfmarker} Yeah, that's what it means. Grad A: Hhh! OK, cool. Uh - a a Grad B: And he'll put us up, too. Grad E: Huh. Grad A: I know {disfmarker} I know about that part. I know about the {disfmarker} the almond trees and stuff. Not joking. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Name a vegetable, OK. {vocalsound} Oh, um, kiwi? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mmm, too easy. Grad A: Coconut. Grad D: Ki Grad A: Pineapple. See? Mango? OK. OK. Too easy? Grad D: Too easy. Yeah, mangos go everywhere. Grad A: Really? Grad D: So do kiwi. Grad A: Oh. OK, but I was trying to find something that he didn't grow on his farm. Grad D: But coconut anana pineapple, that's {disfmarker} that's tricky, yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Anyway. Cantaloupe. Grad E: So, but we have to decide what, like, sort of the general idea of {disfmarker} Grad B: Potatoes. So. Sorry! Grad E: Um, I mean, we're gonna have an example case um, right? I m the {disfmarker} the point is to {disfmarker} like this" where is" case, or something. Grad D: Yeah, maybe you have {disfmarker} It would be kind of {disfmarker} The paper ha would have, in my vision, a nice flow if we could say, well here is th the {disfmarker} th here is parsing if you wanna do it c right, here is understanding if you wanna do it right, and you know {disfmarker} without going into technical {disfmarker} Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But then in the end we're not doing like those things right yet, right? Would that be clear in the paper or not? Grad D: That would be clear, we would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I mailed around a little paper that I have {disfmarker} Grad A: It would be like, this is the idea. Oh, I didn't get that, Grad D: w we could sort of say, this is {disfmarker} Grad A: did I? Oops. Did I? Grad D: No, Grad A: Oops. {comment} Sorry. Grad B: No, y I don't think you got it. Grad D: See this, if you if you're not around, and don't partake in the discussions, and you don't get any email, Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. Grad D: and Grad A: OK, go on. So parsing done right {vocalsound} is like chicken done right. Grad D: Su So we could {disfmarker} we could say this is what {disfmarker} what's sort of state of the art today. Nuh? Grad A: OK. Grad D: And say, this is bad. Nuh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: And then we can say, uh well what we do is this. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: Parsing done right, interpretation done right, example. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. And Grad A: And how much to get into the cognitive neural part? Grad B: That's the only {disfmarker} That's the question mark. Grad D: We Grad B: Don't you need to reduce it if it's a {disfmarker} or reduce it, if it's a cognitive neuro {disfmarker} Grad A: Well, you don't have t I mean the conference may be cognitive neural, doesn't mean that every paper has to be both. Like, NLP cognitive neural. Grad D: Yeah, and you can {disfmarker} you can just point to the {disfmarker} to the literature, Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: you can say that construction - based You know {disfmarker} Grad A: So i so this paper wouldn't particularly deal with that side although it could reference the NTL - ish sort of, like, um, approach. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: The fact that the methods here are all compatible with or designed to be compatible with whatever, neurological {disfmarker} neuro neuro - biol su stuff. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah, I guess four pages you could {disfmarker} I mean you could definitely {disfmarker} it's definitely possible to do it. It's just {disfmarker} It'd just be small. Like introducing the formalism might be not really possible in detail, but you can use an example of it. Grad E: Well, l looking at {disfmarker} yeah, looking at that paper that {disfmarker} that you had, I mean you know, like, you didn't really explain in detail what was going on in the XML cases or whatever you just sorta said well, you know, here's the general idea, some stuff gets put in there. You know, hopefully you can {disfmarker} you can say something like constituents tells you what the construction is made out of, you know, without going into this intense detail. Grad A: Yeah, yeah. So it be like using the formalism rather than you know, introducing it per se. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad E: Give them the one paragraph whirlwind tour of w w what this is for, Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: and {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: And people will sort of figure out or ask about the bits that are implicit. Grad D: Yeah. So this will be sort of documenting what we think, and documenting what we have in terms of the Bayes - net stuff. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And since there's never a bad idea to document things, no? Grad A: That's th that's definitely a good idea. Grad D: That would be my, uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} we should sketch out the details maybe tomorrow afternoon - ish, if everyone is around. I don't know. You probably wouldn't be part of it. Grad E: I think so. Grad D: Maybe you want? Think about it. Um, You may {disfmarker} may ruin your career forever, if you appear. Grad B: Yeah, you might get blacklisted. Grad D: And um, the uh, other thing, yeah we actually {disfmarker} Have we made any progress on what we decided, uh, last week? I'm sure you read the transcript of last week's meeting in red so sh so you're up to dated {disfmarker} caught up. Grad A: No. Sorry. Grad D: We decided t that we're gonna take a" where is something" question, and pretend we have parsed it, and see what we could possibly hope to observe on the discourse side. Grad B: Remember I came in and I started asking you about how we were sor going to sort out the uh, decision nodes? Grad A: Yes! What'd you say? Grad B: I remember you talking to me, just not what you said. Grad A: I do remember you talking to me. Um, a few more bits. Grad B: Well, there was like we needed to {disfmarker} or uh, in my opinion we need to design a Bayes {disfmarker} another sub - Bayes - net {disfmarker} You know, it was whether {disfmarker} it was whether we would have a Bayes - net on the output and on the input, Grad A: Oh. Grad B: or whether the construction was gonna be in the Bayes - net, Grad A: Oh, yeah. OK. Grad B: a and outside of it, Grad A: OK. Grad B: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So that was {disfmarker} was that the question? Was that what {disfmarker} Grad B: Well that was related to what we were talking about. Grad D: Should I introduce it as SUDO - square? Grad B: Yeah sure. Grad D: We have to put this in the paper. If we write it. This is {disfmarker} this is my only constraint. The {disfmarker} th So. The SUDO - square {nonvocalsound} is, {vocalsound}" Situation" ," User" ," Discourse" , right?" Ontology" . Grad E: Oh I saw the diagram in the office, Grad A: Oh my god, that's amazing! Grad D: Mmm. Yeah. Whatever. Grad A: No way. Grad E: Way! Grad D: Is it? Grad A: Someone's gonna start making Phil Collins jokes. Grad D: Yeah. Hmm? Grad A: Sorry. Grad B: What? Grad E: Oh, god, I hope not. Grad A: You guys are too young. Grad E: You know like" Sussudio" , Grad A: Yeah, come on. Grad E: that horrible, horrible song that should never have been created. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Grad A: I know, that was horrible. Sussudio. Grad B: I've blocked every aspect of Phil Collins out of my mind. Grad C: What? Grad A: I'm sorry, I haven't. Not on purpose. Grad E: in here Grad D: Oh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well, also he's talking about suicide, and that's {disfmarker} that's not a notion I wanna have evoked. Grad A: No, he's not. Really? Grad D: He is. Grad A: Oops. {comment} I didn't really listen to it, Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad A: I was too young. Grad E: Hmm. Grad A: Anyway. Grad E: It sounds too rocking for that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Anyway. So, what's going on here? So what are {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Grad D: So, Grad E: Was wollte der Kuenstler uns damit sagen? Grad A: Stop excluding me. Grad D: OK, so we have tons of little things here, Grad A: I can't believe that that's never been thought of before. Grad D: and we've Grad B: Wait, what are the dots? I don't remember what the dots were. Grad E: Those are little bugs. Grad A: Cool Keith. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Grad D: You know, these are our, whatever, belief - net decision nodes, and they all contribute to these {pause} {nonvocalsound} things down here. Grad B: Oh, oh. Grad A: Wait, wait, what's the middle thing? Grad D: That's EDU. Grad E: That's a c Grad D: e e Our e e e Grad A: But wh I mean {disfmarker} Grad E: That's {disfmarker} Grad D: You. We. Us. Grad A: But what is it? Grad D: Well, in the moment it's a Bayes - net. And it has sort of fifty not - yet - specified interfaces. OK. Eh {pause} I have taken care that we actually can build little interfaces, {nonvocalsound} to other modules that will tell us whether the user likes these things and, n the {disfmarker} or these things, and he {disfmarker} whether he's in a wheelchair or not, Grad A: OK. Is that supposed to be the international sign for interface? Grad D: I think so, yeah. Grad A: Mmm. OK. Grad B: I'd {disfmarker} I'd never seen it before either. Grad A: OK. Just t Cool. Grad D: Mmm. So. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Cuz things fit onto that, see? Grad A: Cool. Grad E: In a vaguely obscene fashion. Grad D: No, this is a RME core by agent design, I don't know. Grad A: That's so great. Grad D: There's maybe a different Grad E: So wait, what a what are these letters again, Situr - {comment} Situation, User, Discourse and Grad D: Situation, user, d ontology. Grad A: User? Grad E: Ontology. Grad A: What about the utterance? Grad C: Discourse. Grad D: That's here. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, discourse. So that's not like context, OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Discourse is all things linguistic, yeah. Grad D: So this {disfmarker} this includes the {disfmarker} the current utterance plus all the previous utterances. Grad A: Interesting, uh - huh. User. Grad D: And for example w i s I Irena Gurevich is going to be here eh, end of July. Grad A: User. Grad D: She's a new linguist working for EML. And what she would like to do for example is great for us. She would like to take the ent ontolog Grad C: Ouch. Grad D: So, we have discussed in terms of the EVA {disfmarker} Grad A: Grateful for us? Grad D: uh {disfmarker} Grad A: Did you just say grateful for us? OK, sorry. Anyway. Grad D: Think of {disfmarker} back at the EVA vector, and Johno coming up with the idea that if the person discussed the {disfmarker} discussed the admission fee, in {disfmarker} eh previously, that might be a good indication that," how do I get to the castle?" , actually he wants to enter. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or, you know," how do I get to X?" discussing the admission fee in the previous utterance, is a good indication. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Grad D: So we don't want a hard code, a set of lexemes, or things, that person's you know, sort of filter, or uh search the discourse history. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: So what would be kind of cool is that if we encounter concepts that are castle, tower, bank, hotel, we run it through the ontology, and the ontology tells us it has um, admission, opening times, it has admission fees, it has this, it has that, and then we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we make a thesaurus lexicon, look up, and then search dynamically through the uh, discourse history for {pause} occurrences of these things in a given window of utterances. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And that might, you know, give us additional input to belief A versus B. Or E versus A. Grad A: So it's not just a particular word's {disfmarker} OK, so the {disfmarker} you're looking for a few keys that you know are cues to {disfmarker} sorry, a few specific cues to some intention. Grad B: You can dynamically look up keys, yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad E: Uh, so, wait {disfmarker} so um, since this {disfmarker} since this sort of technical stuff is going over my head, Grad B: And then grep, basically. Grad E: the {disfmarker} the point is that you uh {disfmarker} that when someone's talking about a castle, you know that it's the sort of thing that people are likely to wanna go into? Or, is it the fact that if there's an admission fee, then one of the things we know about admission fees is that you pay them in order to go in? And then the idea of entering is active in the discourse or something? And then Grad D: Well Grad E: blah - blah - blah? Grad D: the {disfmarker} the idea is even more general. Grad E: I mean. Grad D: The idea is to say, we encounter a certain entity in a {disfmarker} in a in a utterance. So le let's look up everything we {disfmarker} the ontology gives us about that entity, what stuff it does, what roles it has, what parts, whatever it has. Functions. And, then we look in the discourse, whether any of that, or any surface structure corresponding to these roles, functions aaa {comment} has ever occurred. Grad E: Oh, OK. Grad D: And then, the discourse history can t tell us," yeah" , or" no" . Grad E: OK. Grad D: And then it's up for us to decide what to do with it. t So i Grad E: OK. So {disfmarker} No, go ahead. Grad D: So, we may think that if you say um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound}" where is the theater" , um, whether or not he has talked about tickets before, then we {disfmarker} he's probably wanna go there to see something. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or" where is the opera in Par - Paris? , Grad E: OK. Grad D: yeah? Lots of people go to the opera to take pictures of it and to look at it, Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: and lots of people go to attend a performance. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And, the discourse can maybe tell us w what's more likely if we know what to look for in previous statements. And so we can hard code" for opera, look for tickets, look for this, look for that, Grad E: OK. OK. Grad D: or look for Mozart, look for thi" but the smarter way is to go via the ontology and dynamically, then look up u stuff. Grad E: OK. But you're still doing look up so that when the person {disfmarker} So the point is that when the person says," where is it?" then you sort of say, let's go back and look at other things and then decide, rather than the other possibility which is that {pause} all through discourse as they talk about different things {disfmarker} You know like w prior to the" where is it" question they say, you know," how much does it cost to get in, you know, to {disfmarker} to see a movie around here" , um, {vocalsound}" where is the closest theater" {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the point is that by mentioning admission fees, that just sort of stays active now. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: You know. That becomes part of like, their sort of current ongoing active conceptual structure. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: And then, um, over in your Bayes - net or whatever, when {disfmarker} when the person says" where is it" , you've already got, you know since they were talking about admission, and that evokes the idea of entering, um, then when they go and ask" where is it" , then you're Enter node is already active Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: because that's what the person is thinking about. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: I mean that's the sort of cognitive linguistic - y way, Grad D: Yeah, e ultimately that's also what we wanna get at. Grad E: and probably not practical. Grad D: I think that's {disfmarker} that's the correct way. So, of course we have to keep memory of what was the last intention, and how does it fit to this, and what does it tell us, in terms of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what we're examining. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mmm, yeah. Grad D: And furthermore, I mean we can idealize that, you know, people don't change topics, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: but they do. But, even th for that, there is a student of ours who's doing a dialogue act um, recognition module. Grad E: Right. Mm - hmm. Grad D: So, maybe, we're even in a position where we can take your approach, which is of course much better, as to say how {disfmarker} how do these pieces {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. And much harder to r program. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: And much harder to p to program. Grad D: Yeah. How {disfmarker} how do these pieces fit together? Uh - huh. And um. But, OK, nevertheless. So these are issues but we {disfmarker} what we actually decided last week, is to, and this is, again, for your benefit {disfmarker} is to um, pretend we have observed and parsed an utterance such as" where is the Powder - Tower" , or" where is the zoo" , and specify um, what {disfmarker} what we think the {disfmarker} the output uh, observe, out {disfmarker} i input nodes for our Bayes - nets for the sub sub - D, for the discourse bit, should be. So that {disfmarker} And I will {disfmarker} I will then {comment} {vocalsound} come up with the ontology side uh, bits and pieces, so that we can say, OK we {disfmarker} we always just look at this utterance. That's the only utterance we can do, it's hard coded, like Srini, sort of hand parsed, hand crafted, but this is what we hope to be able to observe in general from utterances, and from ontologies, and then we can sort of fiddle with these things to see what it actually produces, in terms of output. Grad E: Uh Grad D: So we need to find out what the" where is X" construction will give us in terms of semantics and {vocalsound} Simspec type things. Grad A: Just {disfmarker} OK. Just" where is X" ? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Or any variants of that. Grad D: Yeah. No! Um, look at it this way, i Yeah. What did we decide. We decided sort of the {disfmarker} the prototypical" where is X" , where you know, we don't really know, does he wanna go there, or just wanna know where it is. Grad E: Well we were Grad D: So the difference of" where is the railway station" , versus where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker}" where is Greenland" . Nuh? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Uh s I was just dancing, sorry. Grad D: We're not videotaping any of this. So. Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} ah {disfmarker} Grad E: So, um, we're supposed to {disfmarker} I mean we're talking about sort of anything that has the semantics of request for location, right? actually? Or, I mean, anyway, the node in the uh {disfmarker} the ultimate, uh, in {disfmarker} in the Bayes - net thing when you're done, the {disfmarker} the node that we're talking about um, is one that says" request for location, true" , or something like that, right? Um, and {disfmarker} and exactly how that gets activated, you know, like whether we want the sentence" how do I get there?" to activate that node or not, you know, that's {disfmarker} that's sort of the issue that sort of the linguistic - y side has to deal with, right? Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} Yea - Nnn Well actually more {disfmarker} m more the other way around. We wanted something that represents uncertainty uh we in terms of going there or just wanting to know where it is, for example. Some generic information. Grad E: OK. Grad D: And so this is prototypically @ @ found in the" where is something" question, surface structure, Grad E: OK. Grad B: We Grad D: which can be p you know, should be maps to something that activates both. I mean the idea is to {disfmarker} Grad B: I don't {disfmarker} Grad E: Alright, OK. Grad B: Hhh. I guess. I don't {disfmarker} Grad D: let's have it fit nicely with the paper. Grad B: I don't see unde how we would be able to distinguish between the two intentions just from the g utterance, though. Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad B: I mean, uh bef or, before we don't {disfmarker} before we cranked it through the Bayes - net. I mean. Grad D: Yeah, we {disfmarker} we wouldn't. That's exactly what we want. Grad B: We would? Grad D: We want to get {disfmarker} No. We wouldn't. Grad B: OK, but then so basically it's just a {disfmarker} for every construction we have a node in the net, right? And we turn on that node. Grad D: Yeah. What {disfmarker} what is this gonna {disfmarker} Grad E: Oy. Grad D: Exactly. What is the uh {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Grad B: And then given that we know that {pause} the construction {pause} has these two things, we can set up probabilities {disfmarker} we can s basically define all the tables for ev for those {disfmarker} Grad D: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} So we have um, i let's assume we {disfmarker} we call something like a loc - X node and a path - X node. And what we actually get if we just look at the discourse," where is X" should activate or should {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hmm. Should be both, whereas maybe" where is X located" , we find from the data, is always just asked when the person wants to know where it is, and" how do I get to" is always asked when the person just wants to know how to get there. Right? So we want to sort of come up with what gets uh, input, and how inter in case of a" where is" question. So what {disfmarker} what would the outcome of {disfmarker} of your parser look like? And, what other discourse information from the discourse history could we hope to get, squeeze out of that utterance? So define the {disfmarker} the input into the Bayes - net {vocalsound} based on what the utterance," where is X" , gives us. So definitely have an Entity node here which is activated via the ontology, Grad A: s Grad D: so" where is X" produces something that is s stands for X, whether it's castle, bank, restroom, toilet, whatever. And then the ontology will tell us {disfmarker} Grad A: That it has a location or something like that? {disfmarker} or th the ontology will tell us where actually it is located? Grad D: No. Not at all. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Where it is located, we have, a user proximity node here somewhere, Grad A: OK. OK. Grad D: e which tells us how far the user {disfmarker} how far away the user is in respect to that uh entity. Grad A: OK. So you're talking about, for instance, the construction obviously involves this entity or refers {disfmarker} refers to this entity, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and from the construction also you know that it is a location {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} or a thing {disfmarker} thing that can be located. Right? Ontology says this thing has a location slot. Sh - and that's the thing that is being {disfmarker} that is the content of the question that's being queried by one interpretation of" where is X" . And another one is, um, path from current {disfmarker} user current location to {comment} that location. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So. So is the question {disfmarker} I mean it's just that I'm not sure what the {disfmarker} Is the question, for this particular construction how we specify that that's the information it provides? Or {disfmarker} or asked for? b Both sides, right? Grad D: Yeah, you don't need to even do that. It's just sort of what {vocalsound} what would be @ @ {comment} observed in uh {disfmarker} in that case. Grad A: Observed when you heard the speaker say" where is X" , or when {disfmarker} when that's been parsed? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So these little circles you have by the D? Is that {disfmarker}? OK. OK. Grad D: That's exactly what we're looking for. Grad B: I d I just {disfmarker} I don't like having {disfmarker} characterizing the constructions with location and path, or li characterizing them like that. Cuz you don't {disfmarker} It seems like in the general case you wouldn't know how {disfmarker} how to characterize them. Grad D: You wouldn't. Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} or, for when. There could be an interpretation that we don't have a node for in the {disfmarker} I mean it just seems like @ @ has to have uh {disfmarker} a node for the construction and then let the chips fall where they may. Versus uh, saying, this construction either can mean location or path. And, in this cas and since {disfmarker} since it can mean either of those things, it would light both of those up. Grad D: It's the same. Grad B: Thoughts? Questions? Grad E: I'm thinking about it. Grad D: It will be the same. Grad E: Um {disfmarker} Grad D: So I think r in here we have" I'll go there" , right? Grad B: Answers? Grad D: And we have our Info - on. So in my c my case, this would sort of make this {pause} happy, and this would make the Go - there happy. What you're saying is we have a Where - X question, Where - X node, that makes both happy. Right? That's what you're proposing, which is, in my mind just as fine. So w if we have a construction {pause} node," where is X" , it's gonna both get the po posterior probability that {disfmarker} it's Info - on up, Grad B: Mmm, yeah. Grad D: Info - on is True - up, and that Go - there is True - up, as well. Which would be exactly analogous to what I'm proposing is, this makes {disfmarker} uh makes something here true, and this makes something {disfmarker} also something here true, and this makes this True - up, and this makes this True - up as well. Grad E: I kinda like it better without that extra level of indirection too. You know with {disfmarker} with this points to this points to that, and so on because {vocalsound} I don't know, it {disfmarker} Grad A: Is - uh, Grad D: Yeah, because we get {disfmarker} we get tons of constructions I think. Because, you know, mmm people have many ways of asking for the same thing, Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, sure. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So un Grad B: I change I changed my mind actually. Grad A: So I agree with that. Grad E: OK. Grad A: I have a different kinda question, might be related, which is, OK so implicitly everything in EDU, we're always inferring the speaker intent, right? Like, what they want either, the information that they want, or {disfmarker} It's always information that they want probably, of some kind. Right? Or I {disfmarker} I don't know, or what's something that they {disfmarker} Grad D: The system doesn't massage you, no. No. Grad A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} OK. So, um, let's see. So I don't know if the {disfmarker} I mean i if th just there's more s here that's not shown that you {disfmarker} it's already like part of the system whatever, but," where is X" , like, the fact that it is, you know, a speech - act, whatever, it is a question. It's a question that, um, queries on some particular thing X, and X is that location. There's, like, a lot of structure in representing that. Grad D: Yep. Yeah. Grad A: So that seems different from just having the node" location - X" and that goes into EDU, right? Grad D: Yeah. {vocalsound} Precisely. That's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} Grad A: So tha is that what you're t talking about? Grad D: So, w Exactly. We have su we have specified two. Grad A: wh what kinds of structure we want. Grad D: OK, the next one would be here, just for mood. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: The next one would be what we can squeeze out of the uh I don't know, maybe we wanna observe the uh, um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh the length of {disfmarker} of the words used, and, or the prosody Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: and g a and t make conclusions about the user's intelligence. Grad A: OK. So in some ways {disfmarker} Grad D: I don't know, Grad A: um, so in some ways in the other sort of parallel set of mo more linguistic meetings we've been talking about possible semantics of some construction. Grad D: yeah. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right? Where it was the simulation that's, according to it {disfmarker} you know, that {disfmarker} that corresponds to it, and as well the {disfmarker} as discourse, whatever, conte infor in discourse information, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: such as the mood, and, you know, other stuff. So, are we looking for a sort of abbreviation of that, that's tailored to this problem? Cuz that {disfmarker} that has, you know, basically, you know, s it's in progress still it's in development still, but it definitely has various feature slots, attributes, um, bindings between things {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. U that's exactly r um, why I'm proposing {disfmarker} It's too early to have {disfmarker} to think of them {disfmarker} of all of these discourse things that one could possibly observe, Grad A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. Grad D: so let's just assume Grad A: For the subset of {disfmarker} Grad D: human beings are not allowed to ask anything but" where is X" . Grad A: OK. Grad D: This is the only utterance in the world. What could we observe from that? Grad A: OK. That exactly" where is X" , Grad D: In ter Grad A: not the {disfmarker} the choices of" where is X" or" how do I get to X" . Just" where is X" . Grad D: Just {disfmarker} just" where is X" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad D: And, but you know, do it {disfmarker} do it in such a way that we know that people can also say," is the town hall in front of the bank" , so that we need something like a w WH focus. Nuh? Should be {disfmarker} should be there, that, you know, this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} whatever we get from the {disfmarker} Grad A: Wait, so do, or do not take other kinds of constructions into account? Grad D: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you can, oh definitely do, Grad A: OK. Where possible. OK. Grad D: where possible. Right? If i if {disfmarker} if it's not at all triggered by our thing, then it's irrelevant, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and it doesn't hurt to leave it out for the moment. Um, but {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Um, it seems like for instance," where is X" , the fact that it might mean um," tell me how to get to X" , like {disfmarker} Do y So, would you wanna say that those two are both, like {disfmarker} Those are the two interpretations, right? the {disfmarker} the ones that are location or path. So, you could say that the s construction is a question asking about this location, and then you can additionally infer, if they're asking about the location, it's because they wanna go to that place, in which case, the {disfmarker} you're jumping a step {disfmarker} step and saying," oh, I know where it is Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: but I also know how to get {disfmarker} they wanna seem {disfmarker} they seem to wanna get there so I'm gonna tell them" . So there's like structure Grad E: Right, th this {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker} it's not that this is sort of like semantically ambiguous between these two. Grad A: i do you kn sort of uh, that {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: It's really about this but why would you care about this? Well, it's because you also want to know this, or something like that right? Grad A: So it's like you infer the speaker intent, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and then infer a plan, a larger plan from that, for which you have the additional information, Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: you're just being extra helpful. Grad D: Yep. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Think {disfmarker} Uh, well this is just a mental exercise. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: If you think about, focus on this question, how would you design {pause} that? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Is it {disfmarker} do you feel confident about saying this is part of the language already to {disfmarker} to detect those plans, and why would anyone care about location, if not, you know and so forth. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Or do you actually, I mean this is perfectly legitimate, and I {disfmarker} I would not have any problems with erasing this and say, that's all we can activate, based on the utterance out of context. Grad A: Mm - hmm. And just by an additional link {disfmarker} Oh. Grad D: What? Grad A: Right, Grad E: Right. Grad A: like, Grad D: And then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the miracle that we get out the intention, Go - there, happens, based on what we know about that entity, about the user, about his various beliefs, goals, desires, blah - blah - blah. Grad A: with context and enough user information, yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Absolutely fine. But this is the sort of thing, I {disfmarker} I propose that we think about, Grad A: OK. Grad D: so that we actually end up with um, um, nodes for the discourse and ontology so that we can put them into our Bayes - net, never change them, so we {disfmarker} all there is is" where is X" , and, Eva can play around with the observed things, and we can run our better JavaBayes, and have it produce some output. And for the first time in th in {disfmarker} in the world, we look at our output, and um {disfmarker} and see uh whether it {disfmarker} it's any good. Grad A: OK. Grad D: You know? I mean, Grad E: Here's hoping. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: Here's hoping. Right? Now cross your fingers. Grad D: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I mean, for me this is just a ba matter of curiosity, I wanna {disfmarker} would like to look at uh, what this ad - hoc process of designing a belief - net would actually produce. Grad E: Yeah. {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: If {disfmarker} if we ask it where is something. And, maybe it also h enables you to think about certain things more specifically, um, come up with interesting questions, to which you can find interesting answers. And, additionally it might fit in really nicely with the paper. Because if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we want an example for the paper, I suggest there it is. Grad E: Um - hmm. Yeah. Grad D: So th this might be a nice opening paragraph for the paper as saying," you know people look at kinds of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} at ambiguities" , and um, in the literature there's" bank" and whatever kinds of garden path phenomenon. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And we can say, well, that's all nonsense. A, A, uh these things are never really ambiguous in discourse, B, B, don't ever occur really in discourse, but normal statements that seem completely unambiguous, such as" where is the blah - blah" , actually are terribly complex, and completely ambiguous. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Grad D: And so, what every everybody else has been doing so far in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} you know, has been completely nonsensical, and can all go into the wastepaper bin, and the only {disfmarker} Grad E: That's always a good way to begin. Yeah. Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the only {disfmarker} Grad B: I am great. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: All others are useless. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: That's good. Grad D: Nice overture, but, you know, just not really {disfmarker} OK, I'm eja exaggerating, but that might be, you know, saying" hey" , you know, some stuff is {disfmarker} is actually complex, if you look at it in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the vacuum Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and {disfmarker} and ceases to be complex in reality. And some stuff that's as {disfmarker} that's absolutely straightforward in the vacuum, is actually terribly complex in reality. Would be nice sort of, uh, also, nice, um bottom - up linguistics, um, type message. Grad E: Mm - hmm. True. Grad D: Versus the old top - down school. I'm running out of time. OK. Grad B: When do you need to start wizarding? Grad D: At four ten. OK, this is the other bit of news. The subjects today know Fey, so she can't be here, and do the wizarding. So I'm gonna do the wizarding Grad E: Huh. Grad D: and Thilo's gonna do the instructing. Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: Also we're getting a {disfmarker} a person who just got fired uh, from her job. Uh a person from Oakland who is interested in maybe continuing the wizard bit once Fey leaves in August. And um, she's gonna look at it today. Which is good news in the sense that if we want to continue, after the thir thir after July, we can. We could. And, um {disfmarker} and that's also maybe interesting for Keith and whoever, if you wanna get some more stuff into the data collection. Remember this, we can completely change the set - up any time we want. Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: Look at the results we've gotten so far for the first, whatever, fifty some subjects? Grad A: Fifty? You've had fifty so far, or {disfmarker}? Grad D: No, we're approaching twenty now. Grad A: OK. Grad D: But, until Fey is leaving, we surely will hit the {disfmarker} some of the higher numbers. Grad A: Yeah. Hmm. Grad D: And um, so that's cool. Can a do more funky stuff. Grad E: Sure. Yeah, I'll have to look more into that data. Is that around? Like, cuz that's pretty much getting posted or something right away when you get it? Grad D: Um. Grad E: Or {disfmarker}? I guess it has to be transcribed, huh? Grad D: We have uh, eh found someone here who's hand st hand transcribing the first twelve. Grad E: OK. Grad D: First dozen subjects Grad E: Uh - huh. Grad D: just so we can build a {disfmarker} a language model for the recognizer. Grad E: OK. Grad D: But, um {disfmarker} So those should be available soon. Grad E: OK. Grad D: The first twelve. And I can ch ch st e Grad E: You know {disfmarker} I mean you know that I {disfmarker} that I looked at the first {disfmarker} the first one and got enough data to keep me going for, you know, probably most of July. So. {vocalsound} But, um. Yeah, a probably not the right way to do it actually. Grad D: But you can listen to {disfmarker} a y y y You can listen to all of them from your Solaris box. Grad E: OK. Grad D: If you want. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's always fun.

There is potential to make a conference paper out of presenting the current work and the project aspirations within a parsing paradigm. Similarly, as no one could recall some of the points of the conference call, the group will have to meet again and define the exact structure and content of the paper they are going to submit.

tr-sq-730

tr-sq-730_0

What was said about the bayes-net? Grad E: As usual. Grad B: Yes. Whew! I almost forgot {pause} about the meeting. I woke up twenty minutes ago, thinking, what did I forget? Grad D: It's great how the br brain sort of does that. Grad E: Something's not right here. Grad B: Internal alarms. Grad D: OK. So the news for me is A, my forthcoming travel plans Grad B: Yes. Grad D: in two weeks from today? Yeah? More or less? I'll be off to Sicily and Germany for a couple, three days. Grad B: Now what are y what are you doing there? I forgot? Grad D: OK, I'm flying to Sicily basically to drop off Simon there with his grandparents. And then I'm flying to Germany t to go to a MOKU - Treffen which is the meeting of all the module - responsible people in SmartKom, Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: and, represent ICI and myself I guess there. And um. That's the mmm actual reason. And then I'm also going up to EML for a day, and then I'm going to {vocalsound} meet the very big boss, Wolfgang Walster, in Saarbruecken and the System system integration people in Kaiserslautern and then I'm flying back via Sicily pick up my son come back here on the fourth of July. And uh. Grad E: What a great time to be coming back to the Grad B: God bless America. Grad E: You'll see maybe {disfmarker} see the fireworks from your plane coming in. Grad D: And I'm sure all the {disfmarker} the people at the airport will be happy to work on that day. Grad E: Yeah. You'll get even better service than usual. Grad B: Wait, aren't you flying on Lufthansa though? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Alitalia. Grad B: Oh. Well then the {disfmarker} you know, it's not a big deal. Once you get to the United States it'll be a problem, but Grad D: Yeah. And um, that's that bit of news, and the other bit of news is we had {disfmarker} you know, uh, I was visited by my German project manager who A, did like what we did {disfmarker} what we're doing here, and B, is planning to come here either three weeks in July or three weeks in August, to actually work. Grad B: On {disfmarker}? Grad D: With us. Grad B: Oh. Grad D: And we sat around and we talked and he came up {disfmarker} we came up {disfmarker} with a pretty strange idea. And that's what I'm gonna lay on you now. And um, maybe it might be ultimately the most interesting thing for Eva because she has been known to complain about the fact that the stuff we do here is not weird enough. Grad C: OK. Grad D: So this is so weird it should even make you happy. Grad C: Uh. {comment} OK. Grad E: Oh great. Grad D: Imagine if you will, {vocalsound} that we have a system that does all that understanding that we want it to do based on utterances. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It should be possible to make that system produce questions. So if you have the knowledge of how to interpret" where is X?" under given conditions, situational, user, discourse and ontological {vocalsound} conditions, you should also be able to make that same system ask" where is X?" Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: in a sper certain way, based on certain intentions. So in instead of just being able to observe phenomenon, um, and, guess the intention we might be able just to sort of give it an intention, and make it produce an utterance. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Well, like in AI they generally do the take in, and then they also do the generation phase, like Nancy's thing. Or uh, you remember, in the {disfmarker} the hand thing in one - eighty - two, like not only was it able to recognize but it was also to generate based upon situations. You mean that sort of thing? Grad D: Absolutely. Grad B: OK. Grad D: And once you've done that what we can do is have the system ask itself. And answer, understand the answer, ask something else, and enter a dialogue with itself. So the {disfmarker} the ba basic {disfmarker} the same idea as having two chess computers play against each other. Grad E: Except this smacks a little bit more of a schizophrenic computer than AI. Grad D: Yeah you c if you want, you can have two parallel {vocalsound} machines um, asking each other. What would that give us? Would A be something completely weird and strange, and B, i if you look at all the factors, we will never observe people let's say, in wheelchairs under {disfmarker} you know, in {disfmarker} under all conditions, Grad E: That's good. Grad D: you know, when they say" X" , and there is a ride at the goal, and the parking is good, we can never collect enough data. It's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's not possible. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Right, right. Grad D: But maybe one could do some learning. If you get the system to speak to itself, you may find n break downs and errors and you may be able to learn. And make it more robust, maybe learn new things. And um, so there's no {disfmarker} no end of potential things one could get out of it, if that works. And he would like to actually work on that with us. Grad B: Well then, he probably should be coming back a year {pause} from now. Grad D: So Yeah, I w See the {disfmarker} the generation bit, making the system generate {disfmarker} generate something, {comment} is {disfmarker} shouldn't be too hard. Grad B: Well, once the system understands things. Grad E: Yeah. No problem. Grad B: I just don't think {disfmarker} I think we're probably a year away from getting the system to understand things. Grad D: Yeah. Well, if we can get it to understand one thing, like our" where is" run through we can also, maybe, e make it say, or ask" where is X?" Or not. Grad E: Mmm, I don't know. e I'm sort of {disfmarker} have the impression that getting it to say the right thing in the right circumstances is much more difficult than getting it to understand something given the circumstances and so on, you know, I mean just cuz it's sort of harder to learn to speak correctly in a foreign language, rather than learning to understand it. Right? I mean Grad D: Grad E: just the fact that we'll get {disfmarker} The point is that getting it to understand one construction doesn't mean that it will n always know exactly when it's correct to use that construction. Right? Grad D: It's {disfmarker} it's uh {disfmarker} Well, I've {disfmarker} I've done generation and language production research for fo four {disfmarker} four and a half years. And so it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} you're right, it's not the same as the understanding. It's in some ways easier and some ways harder. nuh? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: But, um, I think it'd be fun to look at it, or into that question. Grad E: Nnn, yeah. Grad D: It's a pretty strange idea. And so that's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Grad B: The basic idea I guess would be to give {disfmarker} allow the system to have intentions, basically? Cuz that's basically what needs to be added to the system for it. Grad D: Well, look at th eee, I think even {disfmarker} think even {disfmarker} What it {disfmarker} would be the {disfmarker} the prior intention. So let's uh {disfmarker} uh, let's say we have this {disfmarker} Grad B: Well we'd have to seed that, I mean. Grad D: No. Let's {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} we have some {disfmarker} some top - down processing, given certain setting. OK, now we change nothing, and just say ask something. Right? Grad B: Grad D: What would it ask? Grad B: It wouldn't know what to ask. I mean. Grad D: It shur Grad B: Unless it was in a situation. We'd have to set up a situation where, it didn't know where something was and it wanted to go there. Grad D: Yeah! Grad C: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Yeah. Grad B: Which means that we'd need to set up an intention inside of the system. Right? Which is basically," I don't know where something is and I need to go there" . Grad D: Eh, n Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Ooh, do we really need to do that? Because, Grad B: Well, no I guess not. Excel Grad D: s It's {disfmarker} i I know it's {disfmarker} it's strange, but look at it {disfmarker} look at our Bayes - net. If we don't have {disfmarker} Let's assume we don't have any input from the language. Right? So there's also nothing we could query the ontology, but we have a certain user setting. If you just ask, what is the likelihood of that person wanting to enter some {disfmarker} something, it'll give you an answer. Grad B: Sure. Grad D: Right? That's just how they are. And so, @ @ whatever that is, it's the generic default intention. That it would find out. Which is, wanting to know where something is, maybe nnn {disfmarker} and wanting {disfmarker} I don't know what it's gonna be, but there's gonna be something that Grad E: Well you're not gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna get a variety of intentions out of that then? I mean, you're just talking about like given this user, what's the th what is it {disfmarker} what is that user most likely to want to do? Grad D: Well you can observe some user and context stuff and ask, what's the posterior probabilities of all of our decision nodes. Grad E: And, have it talk about {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: You could even say," let's take all the priors, let's observe nothing" , and query all the posterior probabilities. It - it's gonna tell us something. Right? Grad B: Well, it will d r assign values to all the nodes. Yes. Grad D: And {disfmarker} Yes. And come up with posterior probabilities for all the values of the decision nodes. Which, if we have an algorithm that filters out whatever the {disfmarker} the best or the most consistent answer out of that, will give us the intention ex nihilo. And that is exactly what would happen if we ask it to produce an utterance, it would be b based on that extension, ex nihilo, which we don't know what it is, but it's there. So we wouldn't even have to {disfmarker} t to kick start it by giving it a certain intention or observing anything on the decision node. And whatever that {disfmarker} maybe that would lead to" what is the castle?" , Grad B: I'm just {disfmarker} Grad D: or" what is that whatever" . Grad B: I guess what I'm afraid of is if we don't, you know, set up a {pause} situation, {comment} we'll just get a bunch of garbage out, like you know, everything's exactly thirty percent. Grad D: No {disfmarker} Grad C: Mmm. Grad D: Yeah. So what we actually then need to do is {disfmarker} is write a little script that changes all the settings, you know, go goes through all the permutations, which is {disfmarker} we did a {disfmarker} didn't we calculate that once? Grad B: Well that was {disfmarker} that was absurdly low, in the last meeting, Grad D: It's a {disfmarker} Grad C: Uh, Grad B: cuz I went and looked at it cuz I was thinking, that could not be right, and it would {disfmarker} it was on the order of twenty output nodes and something like twenty {disfmarker} Grad C: And like thirty input nodes Grad B: thirty input nodes. Grad C: or some {disfmarker} Grad B: So to test every output node, uh, would at least {disfmarker} Let's see, so it would be two to the thirty for every output node? Which is very th very large. Grad D: Oh! That's n Grad E: Oh. Grad D: that's {disfmarker} that's nothing for those neural guys. I mean, they train for millions and millions of epochs. Grad B: Well, I'm talking about Grad D: So. Grad B: Oh, I was gonna take a drink of my water. I'm talking about billions and billions and billions and a number {disfmarker} two to the thirty is like a Bhaskara said, we had calculated out and Bhaskara believes that it's larger than the number of particles in the universe. And if i Grad E: I don't know if that's right or not. Th - that's big. That's just {disfmarker} That's uh {disfmarker} It's a billion, right? Grad B: Two to the thirty? Well, two to the thirty is a billion, but if we have to do it two to the twenty times, then that's a very very large number. Grad E: Right. Argh. Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah, that's big. Grad B: Cuz you have to query the node, for every a uh, or query the net two to the twenty times. Grad E: Sure. Alright. Grad B: Or not two to th excuse me, twenty times. Grad E: OK. So, is it t comes to twenty billion or something? Grad B: Yes. As far as {disfmarker} Grad E: That's pretty big, though. Grad B: That's @ @ {disfmarker} That's big. Actually {disfmarker} Oh! We calculated a different number before. How did we do that? Grad C: Hmm. Grad E: I remember there being some other one floating around. But anyway, uh. Grad C: I don't really know. Grad E: Yeah, it's g Anyway, the point is that given all of these different factors, it's uh e it's {disfmarker} it's still going to be impossible to run through all of the possible situations or whatever. Grad C: Ooo, it's just big. Grad E: But I mean, this'll get us a bit closer at least, right? I mean. Grad B: If it takes us a second to do, for each one, and let's say it's twenty billion, {comment} then that's twenty billion seconds, which is {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Eva, do the math. Grad C: Can't. Grad E: Long! Grad C: Grad B: Hours and hours and hours and hours. But we can do randomized testing. Grad E: Tah - dah! Grad B: Which probabilistically will be good enough. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. So, it be it it's an idea that one could n for {disfmarker} for example run {disfmarker} run past, um, what's that guy's name? You know? He - he's usually here. Tsk. J J Jer - Jerj Grad E: Here in the group? Jerry Feldman. Grad D: Oh, yeah. That's the guy. We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we g Grad B: Wait, who? Grad E: Yeah, i that would the g the bald guy. Grad B: Oh! My advisor! Grad D: And um. so this is just an idea that's floating around and we'll see what happens. And um, hmm, what other news do I have? Well we fixed some more things from the SmartKom system, but that's not really of general interest, Um, Oh! Questions, yeah. I'll ask Eva about the E Bayes and she's working on that. How is the generation XML thing? Grad B: I'm gonna work on that today and tomorrow. Grad D: OK. No need to do it today or tomorrow even. Do it next week or {disfmarker} Grad B: I'm gonna finish it today, uh hopefully. Grad D: OK. Grad B: I wanna do one of those things where I stay here. Cuz uh, if I go home, I can't finish it. I've tried about five times so far, where I work for a while and then I'm like, I'm hungry. So I go home, and then I think {disfmarker} Grad E: I'm not going back. Grad B: Yeah. Either that or I think to myself, I can work at home. And then I try to work at home, but I fail miserably. Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Like I ended up at Blakes last night. Grad E: Non - conducive. Grad B: No. I almost got into a brawl. But I did not finish the uh, But I've been looking into it. I th @ @ It's not like it's a blank slate. I found everything that I need and stu and uh, Grad D: But st Grad B: At the b uh furthermore, I told Jerry that I was gonna finish it before he got back. So. Grad D: OK. Grad E: That's approaching. He's coming back when? Uh next {disfmarker} Grad B: Well, I think {disfmarker} we think we'll see him definitely on Tuesday for the next {disfmarker} Or, no, wait. The meetings are on Thursday. Grad D: Maybe. Grad B: Maybe. Grad D: Who knows. Grad E: OK. Grad B: Well, we'll see him next week. Grad E: Alright. Grad D: That's good. Yeah. The paper. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: I was thinking about that. Grad D: Hmm. Grad B: I think I will try to work on the SmartKom stuff and I'll {disfmarker} if I can finish it today, I'll help you with that tomorrow, if you work on it? I don't have a problem with us working on it though? So. Grad D: OK. Grad B: And it {disfmarker} Grad D: So you would say it's funky cool. Grad B: I mean we just {disfmarker} I mean it wouldn't hurt to write up a paper, cuz then, I mean, yeah {disfmarker} I was talking with Nancy and Nancy said, you don't know whether you have a paper to {pause} write up until you write it up. So. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Well Grad B: And since Jerry's coming back, we can run it by him too. So. Grad D: Yep. Um, what's your input? Grad E: Well, um, I don't have much experience with uh, conference papers for compu in the computer science realm, and so when I looked at what you had, which was apparently a complete submission, I just sort of said what {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I didn't really know what to do with it, like, this is the sort of the basic outline of the system or whatever, or {disfmarker} or" here's an idea" , right? That's what that paper was," here's {disfmarker} here's one possible thing you could do" , Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: short, eight pages, and I just don't know what you have in mind for expanding. Like I'd {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I didn't do is go to the web site of the conference and look at what they're looking for or whatever. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Well, it seems to me that um {disfmarker} Grad B: Wait, is this a computer science conference or is it a {disfmarker} Grad D: Um, well it's more {disfmarker} It's both, right? It's {disfmarker} it's sort of t cognitive, neural, psycho, linguistic, but all for the sake of doing computer science. So it's sort of cognitive, psycho, neural, plausibly motivated, architectures of natural language processing. So it seems pretty interdisciplinary, and I mean, w w the keynote speaker is Tomasello and blah - blah - blah, Grad E: Right. Oh, yeah. Grad D: so, W the {disfmarker} the question is what could we actually do and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and keep a straight face while doing it. Grad B: Well, I really can't keep a straight face doing anything. Grad D: And i My idea is, Grad E: Setting that aside. Grad D: well, you can say we have done a little bit and that's this, and uh sort of the rest is position paper," we wanna also do that" . Which is not too good. Might be more interesting to do something like let's assume um, we're right, we have as Jerry calls it, a delusion of adequacy, and take a" where is X" sentence, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and say," we will just talk about this, and how we cognitively, neurally, psycho - linguistically, construction grammar - ally, motivated, envision uh, understanding that" . Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: So we can actually show how we parse it. That should be able to {disfmarker} we should be able to come up with, you know, a sort of a {disfmarker} a parse. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's on, just {disfmarker} just put it on. Grad A: I'm OK. Grad B: Did Ben harass you? Grad A: Yes. Grad B: Good. Grad A: Was he supposed to harass me? Grad B: Yes. Grad A: Well, he just told me that you came looking for me. Grad D: You don Grad B: Oh. Grad D: Grad A: figure this out. Grad D: You will suffer in hell, you know that. Grad E: Backwards. There's a s diagram somewhere which tells you how to put that {disfmarker} Grad A: I know, I didn't understand that either! Grad B: No wait. You have to put it on exactly like that, Grad D: This is it. Yeah. Grad B: so put that {disfmarker} those things over your ears like that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: See the p how the plastic things ar arch out like that? There we go. Grad A: OK. It hurts. Grad B: It hurts. It hurts real bad. Grad A: It does! I'm sorry I didn't mean to {disfmarker} Grad E: But that's what you get for coming late to the meeting. Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, oh these are all the same. OK! th this is not very {pause} on target. Grad B: Is your mike on? Grad C: An Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Yeah, it is. Grad B: OK. Grad A: Alright, you guys can continue talking about whatever you were talking about before. Grad E: Um, Grad D: We're talking about this um, alleged paper that we may, just, sort of w Grad A: Oh! Which Johno mentioned to me. Uh - huh. Grad D: Yeah. And I just sort of brought forth the idea that we take a sentence," Where is the Powder - Tower" , Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and we {disfmarker} we p pretend to parse it, we pretend to understand it, and we write about it. Grad E: Hmm. About how {vocalsound} all of these things {disfmarker} Grad A: What's the part that's not pretend? The writing? Grad D: OK, then we pretend to write about. Grad E: The submitting to a major international conference. {comment} {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Tha - {vocalsound} Which conference is it for? Grad D: It's the whatever, architectures, eh you know, where {disfmarker} There is this conference, it's the seventh already international conference, on neu neurally, cognitively, motivated, architectures of natural language processing. Grad A: Oh. Wow. Interesting. Grad D: And the keynote speakers are Tomasello, MacWhinney? Grad A: Whinney. {comment} MacWhinney. Uh - huh. Grad D: We - MacWhinney, I think. Grad E: Grad A: So, interesting, both, like, child language people. Grad D: Yeah. Yep. Grad A: OK. Grad D: So maybe you wanna write something too. Grad A: Yeah, maybe I wanna go. Um, why are they speaking at it if it {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. {vocalsound} Mmm. Grad A: is {disfmarker} is it normally like {disfmarker} like, dialogue systems, or, you know, other NLP - ish things? Grad D: No no no no no no no no. It's {disfmarker} it's like a {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, it's cognitive. OK. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Even neuro. Grad A: And uh, both learning and like, comprehension, production, that kinda stuff. Grad D: Psycho. You could look at the web site. Grad A: OK. Grad D: I'll {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. I don't know about it. Grad D: And the ad and {disfmarker} and the deadline is the fifteenth of June. Grad A: Yeah that's pretty soon. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hey. Plenty of time. Grad E: Why, we've got over a week! Grad D: It would be nice to go write two papers actually. Yeah. And one {disfmarker} one from your perspective, and one from our peve per per Grad A: Mm - hmm. I mean, th that's the kinda thing that maybe like, um, the general uh con sort of like NTL - ish like, whatever, the previous simulation based pers {comment} maybe you're talking about the same kind of thing. A general paper about the approach here would probably be appropriate. And good to do at some point anyway. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Well, I {disfmarker} I also think that if we sort of write about what we have done in the past six months, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we could sort of craft a nice little paper that {pause} if it gets rejected, which could happen, doesn't hurt Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: because it's something we eh {disfmarker} Grad A: Having it is still a good thing. Grad D: having it is a good {disfmarker} good thing. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: It's a nice exercise, it's {disfmarker} I usually enjoy writing papers. It's not {disfmarker} I don't re regard it as a painful thing. Grad A: Mm - hmm. It's fun. Grad D: And um, we should all do more for our publication lists. And. It just never hurts. And Keith and - or Johno will go, probably. Grad B: Will I? Grad A: When is it and where? Grad D: In case of {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm! Grad D: It's on the twenty second of September, in Saarbruecken Germany. Grad A: Ah, it's in Germany. Ah, OK. I s I see. Tomasello's already in Germany anyway, so makes sense. OK. Grad E: Just {disfmarker} Grad A: Um. OK. So, is the {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} Are you just talking about you know, the details of how to do it, or whether to do it, or what it would be? Grad E: What would one possibly put in such a paper? Grad D: What to write about. Grad A: Or what to write about? Grad D: What is our {disfmarker} what's our take home message. What {disfmarker} what do we actually {disfmarker} Because I mean, it {disfmarker} I don't like papers where you just talk about what you plan to do. I mean, it's obvious that we can't do any kind of evaluation, and have no {disfmarker} you know, we can't write an ACL type paper where we say," OK, we've done this Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and now we're whatever percentage better than everybody else" . You know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It's far too early for that. But uh, we {disfmarker} we can tell them what we think. I mean that's {disfmarker} never hurts to try. And um, maybe even {disfmarker} That's maybe the time to introduce the {disfmarker} the new formalism that you guys have cooked up. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: But that {disfmarker} Grad E: Are in the process of {disfmarker} Grad A: How many pages? Grad B: don't they need to finish the formalism? Grad D: It's just like four pages. Grad A: Four pages? Grad D: I mean it's {disfmarker} it's not even a h Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK, so it's a little thing. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Well, you said it was four thousand lines? Grad E: Oh. Grad B: Is that what you s Grad A: OK. Four pages is, like, really not very much space. Grad D: I don't know w Did you look at it? Yeah, it depends on the format. Grad E: Oh my gosh. Oh, I thought you were {disfmarker} I thought we were talking about something which was much more like ten or something. Grad D: No that's {disfmarker} I mean that's actually a problem. It's difficu it's more difficult to write on four pages than on eight. Grad A: It's {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: And it's also difficult to {disfmarker} even if you had a lot of substance, it's hard to demonstrate that in four pages, basically. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad E: That would be hard. Grad A: I mean it's still {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Grad D: Well I uh maybe it's just four thousand lines. I do I don't {disfmarker} They don't want any {disfmarker} They don't have a TeX f style @ @ guide. Grad A: Uh - huh, uh - huh. Grad D: They just want ASCII. Pure ASCII lines, Grad A: OK. Grad D: whatever. Why, for whatever reason, Grad A: Not including figures and such? Grad D: I don't know. I don't know. Very unspecific unfortunately. Grad A: OK. Well, Grad D: We'll just uh {disfmarker} Grad B: I would say that's closer to six pages actually. Four thousand lines of ASCII? Grad D: OK then. It's {disfmarker} Grad E: Four thousand lines. I mean. Isn't a isn't it about fifty s fifty five, sixty lines to a page? Grad D: I d don't quote me on this. This is numbers I {disfmarker} I have from looking o Grad B: How many characters are on a line? Grad D: OK. Grad A: ASCII? Grad D: Let's {disfmarker} let's {disfmarker} wh wh what should we {disfmarker} should {disfmarker} should we uh, um, discuss this over tea and all of us look at the web? Oh, I can't. I'm wizarding today. Grad A: OK, look at the web page? Grad D: Um. Grad A: Wha - w Grad D: Look at the web page and let's talk about it maybe tomorrow afternoon? Grad A: More cues for us to find it are like, neural cons Grad D: Johno will send you a link. Grad A: Oh, you have a link. OK. OK. Grad B: I got an email. Grad A: OK. Grad B: By the way, Keith is comfortable with us calling him" cool Keith" . Grad A: Oh. Cool. Keith. Grad E: He {disfmarker} he decided {vocalsound} I'm chilling in the five - one - O. Grad A: Cool," cool Keith" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Excellent. Grad D: OK. Grad A: That's a very cool T - shirt. Grad E: Thank you. Grad D: And I'm also flying {disfmarker} Grad E: I got this from the two one two. Grad A: New York? Excellent. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Yes? Grad D: I'm flying to Sicily next {disfmarker} in a w two weeks from now, Grad A: Oh, lucky you. Grad D: w and a week of business in Germany. I should mention that for you. And otherwise you haven't missed much, except for a really weird idea, but you'll hear about that soon enough. Grad A: The idea that you and I already know about? That you already told me? Not that {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: No, no, no. Yeah, that is something for the rest of the gang to {disfmarker} to g Grad E: The thing with the goats and the helicopters? Grad D: Change the watchband. It's time to walk the sheep. Grad C: like Grad A: OK. Grad D: Um. Did you catch that allusion? It's time to walk the sheep? Grad E: No. Grad D: It's a a uh presumably one of the Watergate codes they uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh. Grad D: Anyways, th um, um, don't make any plans for spring break next year. That's {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh, shoot. Grad D: That's the other thing. We're gonna do an int EDU internal workshop in Sicily. Grad A: That's what {disfmarker} That's what he says. Grad D: I've already got the funding. Grad A: I kn That's great! Grad D: So, I mean. Grad A: Does that mean {disfmarker} Does that mean you'll get {disfmarker} you'll fly us there? Grad E: We'll see. Grad D: No, that's {disfmarker} Yeah, that's what it means. Grad A: Hhh! OK, cool. Uh - a a Grad B: And he'll put us up, too. Grad E: Huh. Grad A: I know {disfmarker} I know about that part. I know about the {disfmarker} the almond trees and stuff. Not joking. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Name a vegetable, OK. {vocalsound} Oh, um, kiwi? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mmm, too easy. Grad A: Coconut. Grad D: Ki Grad A: Pineapple. See? Mango? OK. OK. Too easy? Grad D: Too easy. Yeah, mangos go everywhere. Grad A: Really? Grad D: So do kiwi. Grad A: Oh. OK, but I was trying to find something that he didn't grow on his farm. Grad D: But coconut anana pineapple, that's {disfmarker} that's tricky, yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Anyway. Cantaloupe. Grad E: So, but we have to decide what, like, sort of the general idea of {disfmarker} Grad B: Potatoes. So. Sorry! Grad E: Um, I mean, we're gonna have an example case um, right? I m the {disfmarker} the point is to {disfmarker} like this" where is" case, or something. Grad D: Yeah, maybe you have {disfmarker} It would be kind of {disfmarker} The paper ha would have, in my vision, a nice flow if we could say, well here is th the {disfmarker} th here is parsing if you wanna do it c right, here is understanding if you wanna do it right, and you know {disfmarker} without going into technical {disfmarker} Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But then in the end we're not doing like those things right yet, right? Would that be clear in the paper or not? Grad D: That would be clear, we would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I mailed around a little paper that I have {disfmarker} Grad A: It would be like, this is the idea. Oh, I didn't get that, Grad D: w we could sort of say, this is {disfmarker} Grad A: did I? Oops. Did I? Grad D: No, Grad A: Oops. {comment} Sorry. Grad B: No, y I don't think you got it. Grad D: See this, if you if you're not around, and don't partake in the discussions, and you don't get any email, Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. Grad D: and Grad A: OK, go on. So parsing done right {vocalsound} is like chicken done right. Grad D: Su So we could {disfmarker} we could say this is what {disfmarker} what's sort of state of the art today. Nuh? Grad A: OK. Grad D: And say, this is bad. Nuh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: And then we can say, uh well what we do is this. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: Parsing done right, interpretation done right, example. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. And Grad A: And how much to get into the cognitive neural part? Grad B: That's the only {disfmarker} That's the question mark. Grad D: We Grad B: Don't you need to reduce it if it's a {disfmarker} or reduce it, if it's a cognitive neuro {disfmarker} Grad A: Well, you don't have t I mean the conference may be cognitive neural, doesn't mean that every paper has to be both. Like, NLP cognitive neural. Grad D: Yeah, and you can {disfmarker} you can just point to the {disfmarker} to the literature, Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: you can say that construction - based You know {disfmarker} Grad A: So i so this paper wouldn't particularly deal with that side although it could reference the NTL - ish sort of, like, um, approach. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: The fact that the methods here are all compatible with or designed to be compatible with whatever, neurological {disfmarker} neuro neuro - biol su stuff. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah, I guess four pages you could {disfmarker} I mean you could definitely {disfmarker} it's definitely possible to do it. It's just {disfmarker} It'd just be small. Like introducing the formalism might be not really possible in detail, but you can use an example of it. Grad E: Well, l looking at {disfmarker} yeah, looking at that paper that {disfmarker} that you had, I mean you know, like, you didn't really explain in detail what was going on in the XML cases or whatever you just sorta said well, you know, here's the general idea, some stuff gets put in there. You know, hopefully you can {disfmarker} you can say something like constituents tells you what the construction is made out of, you know, without going into this intense detail. Grad A: Yeah, yeah. So it be like using the formalism rather than you know, introducing it per se. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad E: Give them the one paragraph whirlwind tour of w w what this is for, Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: and {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: And people will sort of figure out or ask about the bits that are implicit. Grad D: Yeah. So this will be sort of documenting what we think, and documenting what we have in terms of the Bayes - net stuff. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And since there's never a bad idea to document things, no? Grad A: That's th that's definitely a good idea. Grad D: That would be my, uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} we should sketch out the details maybe tomorrow afternoon - ish, if everyone is around. I don't know. You probably wouldn't be part of it. Grad E: I think so. Grad D: Maybe you want? Think about it. Um, You may {disfmarker} may ruin your career forever, if you appear. Grad B: Yeah, you might get blacklisted. Grad D: And um, the uh, other thing, yeah we actually {disfmarker} Have we made any progress on what we decided, uh, last week? I'm sure you read the transcript of last week's meeting in red so sh so you're up to dated {disfmarker} caught up. Grad A: No. Sorry. Grad D: We decided t that we're gonna take a" where is something" question, and pretend we have parsed it, and see what we could possibly hope to observe on the discourse side. Grad B: Remember I came in and I started asking you about how we were sor going to sort out the uh, decision nodes? Grad A: Yes! What'd you say? Grad B: I remember you talking to me, just not what you said. Grad A: I do remember you talking to me. Um, a few more bits. Grad B: Well, there was like we needed to {disfmarker} or uh, in my opinion we need to design a Bayes {disfmarker} another sub - Bayes - net {disfmarker} You know, it was whether {disfmarker} it was whether we would have a Bayes - net on the output and on the input, Grad A: Oh. Grad B: or whether the construction was gonna be in the Bayes - net, Grad A: Oh, yeah. OK. Grad B: a and outside of it, Grad A: OK. Grad B: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So that was {disfmarker} was that the question? Was that what {disfmarker} Grad B: Well that was related to what we were talking about. Grad D: Should I introduce it as SUDO - square? Grad B: Yeah sure. Grad D: We have to put this in the paper. If we write it. This is {disfmarker} this is my only constraint. The {disfmarker} th So. The SUDO - square {nonvocalsound} is, {vocalsound}" Situation" ," User" ," Discourse" , right?" Ontology" . Grad E: Oh I saw the diagram in the office, Grad A: Oh my god, that's amazing! Grad D: Mmm. Yeah. Whatever. Grad A: No way. Grad E: Way! Grad D: Is it? Grad A: Someone's gonna start making Phil Collins jokes. Grad D: Yeah. Hmm? Grad A: Sorry. Grad B: What? Grad E: Oh, god, I hope not. Grad A: You guys are too young. Grad E: You know like" Sussudio" , Grad A: Yeah, come on. Grad E: that horrible, horrible song that should never have been created. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Grad A: I know, that was horrible. Sussudio. Grad B: I've blocked every aspect of Phil Collins out of my mind. Grad C: What? Grad A: I'm sorry, I haven't. Not on purpose. Grad E: in here Grad D: Oh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well, also he's talking about suicide, and that's {disfmarker} that's not a notion I wanna have evoked. Grad A: No, he's not. Really? Grad D: He is. Grad A: Oops. {comment} I didn't really listen to it, Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad A: I was too young. Grad E: Hmm. Grad A: Anyway. Grad E: It sounds too rocking for that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Anyway. So, what's going on here? So what are {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Grad D: So, Grad E: Was wollte der Kuenstler uns damit sagen? Grad A: Stop excluding me. Grad D: OK, so we have tons of little things here, Grad A: I can't believe that that's never been thought of before. Grad D: and we've Grad B: Wait, what are the dots? I don't remember what the dots were. Grad E: Those are little bugs. Grad A: Cool Keith. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Grad D: You know, these are our, whatever, belief - net decision nodes, and they all contribute to these {pause} {nonvocalsound} things down here. Grad B: Oh, oh. Grad A: Wait, wait, what's the middle thing? Grad D: That's EDU. Grad E: That's a c Grad D: e e Our e e e Grad A: But wh I mean {disfmarker} Grad E: That's {disfmarker} Grad D: You. We. Us. Grad A: But what is it? Grad D: Well, in the moment it's a Bayes - net. And it has sort of fifty not - yet - specified interfaces. OK. Eh {pause} I have taken care that we actually can build little interfaces, {nonvocalsound} to other modules that will tell us whether the user likes these things and, n the {disfmarker} or these things, and he {disfmarker} whether he's in a wheelchair or not, Grad A: OK. Is that supposed to be the international sign for interface? Grad D: I think so, yeah. Grad A: Mmm. OK. Grad B: I'd {disfmarker} I'd never seen it before either. Grad A: OK. Just t Cool. Grad D: Mmm. So. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Cuz things fit onto that, see? Grad A: Cool. Grad E: In a vaguely obscene fashion. Grad D: No, this is a RME core by agent design, I don't know. Grad A: That's so great. Grad D: There's maybe a different Grad E: So wait, what a what are these letters again, Situr - {comment} Situation, User, Discourse and Grad D: Situation, user, d ontology. Grad A: User? Grad E: Ontology. Grad A: What about the utterance? Grad C: Discourse. Grad D: That's here. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, discourse. So that's not like context, OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Discourse is all things linguistic, yeah. Grad D: So this {disfmarker} this includes the {disfmarker} the current utterance plus all the previous utterances. Grad A: Interesting, uh - huh. User. Grad D: And for example w i s I Irena Gurevich is going to be here eh, end of July. Grad A: User. Grad D: She's a new linguist working for EML. And what she would like to do for example is great for us. She would like to take the ent ontolog Grad C: Ouch. Grad D: So, we have discussed in terms of the EVA {disfmarker} Grad A: Grateful for us? Grad D: uh {disfmarker} Grad A: Did you just say grateful for us? OK, sorry. Anyway. Grad D: Think of {disfmarker} back at the EVA vector, and Johno coming up with the idea that if the person discussed the {disfmarker} discussed the admission fee, in {disfmarker} eh previously, that might be a good indication that," how do I get to the castle?" , actually he wants to enter. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or, you know," how do I get to X?" discussing the admission fee in the previous utterance, is a good indication. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Grad D: So we don't want a hard code, a set of lexemes, or things, that person's you know, sort of filter, or uh search the discourse history. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: So what would be kind of cool is that if we encounter concepts that are castle, tower, bank, hotel, we run it through the ontology, and the ontology tells us it has um, admission, opening times, it has admission fees, it has this, it has that, and then we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we make a thesaurus lexicon, look up, and then search dynamically through the uh, discourse history for {pause} occurrences of these things in a given window of utterances. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And that might, you know, give us additional input to belief A versus B. Or E versus A. Grad A: So it's not just a particular word's {disfmarker} OK, so the {disfmarker} you're looking for a few keys that you know are cues to {disfmarker} sorry, a few specific cues to some intention. Grad B: You can dynamically look up keys, yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad E: Uh, so, wait {disfmarker} so um, since this {disfmarker} since this sort of technical stuff is going over my head, Grad B: And then grep, basically. Grad E: the {disfmarker} the point is that you uh {disfmarker} that when someone's talking about a castle, you know that it's the sort of thing that people are likely to wanna go into? Or, is it the fact that if there's an admission fee, then one of the things we know about admission fees is that you pay them in order to go in? And then the idea of entering is active in the discourse or something? And then Grad D: Well Grad E: blah - blah - blah? Grad D: the {disfmarker} the idea is even more general. Grad E: I mean. Grad D: The idea is to say, we encounter a certain entity in a {disfmarker} in a in a utterance. So le let's look up everything we {disfmarker} the ontology gives us about that entity, what stuff it does, what roles it has, what parts, whatever it has. Functions. And, then we look in the discourse, whether any of that, or any surface structure corresponding to these roles, functions aaa {comment} has ever occurred. Grad E: Oh, OK. Grad D: And then, the discourse history can t tell us," yeah" , or" no" . Grad E: OK. Grad D: And then it's up for us to decide what to do with it. t So i Grad E: OK. So {disfmarker} No, go ahead. Grad D: So, we may think that if you say um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound}" where is the theater" , um, whether or not he has talked about tickets before, then we {disfmarker} he's probably wanna go there to see something. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or" where is the opera in Par - Paris? , Grad E: OK. Grad D: yeah? Lots of people go to the opera to take pictures of it and to look at it, Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: and lots of people go to attend a performance. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And, the discourse can maybe tell us w what's more likely if we know what to look for in previous statements. And so we can hard code" for opera, look for tickets, look for this, look for that, Grad E: OK. OK. Grad D: or look for Mozart, look for thi" but the smarter way is to go via the ontology and dynamically, then look up u stuff. Grad E: OK. But you're still doing look up so that when the person {disfmarker} So the point is that when the person says," where is it?" then you sort of say, let's go back and look at other things and then decide, rather than the other possibility which is that {pause} all through discourse as they talk about different things {disfmarker} You know like w prior to the" where is it" question they say, you know," how much does it cost to get in, you know, to {disfmarker} to see a movie around here" , um, {vocalsound}" where is the closest theater" {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the point is that by mentioning admission fees, that just sort of stays active now. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: You know. That becomes part of like, their sort of current ongoing active conceptual structure. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: And then, um, over in your Bayes - net or whatever, when {disfmarker} when the person says" where is it" , you've already got, you know since they were talking about admission, and that evokes the idea of entering, um, then when they go and ask" where is it" , then you're Enter node is already active Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: because that's what the person is thinking about. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: I mean that's the sort of cognitive linguistic - y way, Grad D: Yeah, e ultimately that's also what we wanna get at. Grad E: and probably not practical. Grad D: I think that's {disfmarker} that's the correct way. So, of course we have to keep memory of what was the last intention, and how does it fit to this, and what does it tell us, in terms of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what we're examining. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mmm, yeah. Grad D: And furthermore, I mean we can idealize that, you know, people don't change topics, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: but they do. But, even th for that, there is a student of ours who's doing a dialogue act um, recognition module. Grad E: Right. Mm - hmm. Grad D: So, maybe, we're even in a position where we can take your approach, which is of course much better, as to say how {disfmarker} how do these pieces {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. And much harder to r program. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: And much harder to p to program. Grad D: Yeah. How {disfmarker} how do these pieces fit together? Uh - huh. And um. But, OK, nevertheless. So these are issues but we {disfmarker} what we actually decided last week, is to, and this is, again, for your benefit {disfmarker} is to um, pretend we have observed and parsed an utterance such as" where is the Powder - Tower" , or" where is the zoo" , and specify um, what {disfmarker} what we think the {disfmarker} the output uh, observe, out {disfmarker} i input nodes for our Bayes - nets for the sub sub - D, for the discourse bit, should be. So that {disfmarker} And I will {disfmarker} I will then {comment} {vocalsound} come up with the ontology side uh, bits and pieces, so that we can say, OK we {disfmarker} we always just look at this utterance. That's the only utterance we can do, it's hard coded, like Srini, sort of hand parsed, hand crafted, but this is what we hope to be able to observe in general from utterances, and from ontologies, and then we can sort of fiddle with these things to see what it actually produces, in terms of output. Grad E: Uh Grad D: So we need to find out what the" where is X" construction will give us in terms of semantics and {vocalsound} Simspec type things. Grad A: Just {disfmarker} OK. Just" where is X" ? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Or any variants of that. Grad D: Yeah. No! Um, look at it this way, i Yeah. What did we decide. We decided sort of the {disfmarker} the prototypical" where is X" , where you know, we don't really know, does he wanna go there, or just wanna know where it is. Grad E: Well we were Grad D: So the difference of" where is the railway station" , versus where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker}" where is Greenland" . Nuh? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Uh s I was just dancing, sorry. Grad D: We're not videotaping any of this. So. Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} ah {disfmarker} Grad E: So, um, we're supposed to {disfmarker} I mean we're talking about sort of anything that has the semantics of request for location, right? actually? Or, I mean, anyway, the node in the uh {disfmarker} the ultimate, uh, in {disfmarker} in the Bayes - net thing when you're done, the {disfmarker} the node that we're talking about um, is one that says" request for location, true" , or something like that, right? Um, and {disfmarker} and exactly how that gets activated, you know, like whether we want the sentence" how do I get there?" to activate that node or not, you know, that's {disfmarker} that's sort of the issue that sort of the linguistic - y side has to deal with, right? Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} Yea - Nnn Well actually more {disfmarker} m more the other way around. We wanted something that represents uncertainty uh we in terms of going there or just wanting to know where it is, for example. Some generic information. Grad E: OK. Grad D: And so this is prototypically @ @ found in the" where is something" question, surface structure, Grad E: OK. Grad B: We Grad D: which can be p you know, should be maps to something that activates both. I mean the idea is to {disfmarker} Grad B: I don't {disfmarker} Grad E: Alright, OK. Grad B: Hhh. I guess. I don't {disfmarker} Grad D: let's have it fit nicely with the paper. Grad B: I don't see unde how we would be able to distinguish between the two intentions just from the g utterance, though. Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad B: I mean, uh bef or, before we don't {disfmarker} before we cranked it through the Bayes - net. I mean. Grad D: Yeah, we {disfmarker} we wouldn't. That's exactly what we want. Grad B: We would? Grad D: We want to get {disfmarker} No. We wouldn't. Grad B: OK, but then so basically it's just a {disfmarker} for every construction we have a node in the net, right? And we turn on that node. Grad D: Yeah. What {disfmarker} what is this gonna {disfmarker} Grad E: Oy. Grad D: Exactly. What is the uh {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Grad B: And then given that we know that {pause} the construction {pause} has these two things, we can set up probabilities {disfmarker} we can s basically define all the tables for ev for those {disfmarker} Grad D: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} So we have um, i let's assume we {disfmarker} we call something like a loc - X node and a path - X node. And what we actually get if we just look at the discourse," where is X" should activate or should {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hmm. Should be both, whereas maybe" where is X located" , we find from the data, is always just asked when the person wants to know where it is, and" how do I get to" is always asked when the person just wants to know how to get there. Right? So we want to sort of come up with what gets uh, input, and how inter in case of a" where is" question. So what {disfmarker} what would the outcome of {disfmarker} of your parser look like? And, what other discourse information from the discourse history could we hope to get, squeeze out of that utterance? So define the {disfmarker} the input into the Bayes - net {vocalsound} based on what the utterance," where is X" , gives us. So definitely have an Entity node here which is activated via the ontology, Grad A: s Grad D: so" where is X" produces something that is s stands for X, whether it's castle, bank, restroom, toilet, whatever. And then the ontology will tell us {disfmarker} Grad A: That it has a location or something like that? {disfmarker} or th the ontology will tell us where actually it is located? Grad D: No. Not at all. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Where it is located, we have, a user proximity node here somewhere, Grad A: OK. OK. Grad D: e which tells us how far the user {disfmarker} how far away the user is in respect to that uh entity. Grad A: OK. So you're talking about, for instance, the construction obviously involves this entity or refers {disfmarker} refers to this entity, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and from the construction also you know that it is a location {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} or a thing {disfmarker} thing that can be located. Right? Ontology says this thing has a location slot. Sh - and that's the thing that is being {disfmarker} that is the content of the question that's being queried by one interpretation of" where is X" . And another one is, um, path from current {disfmarker} user current location to {comment} that location. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So. So is the question {disfmarker} I mean it's just that I'm not sure what the {disfmarker} Is the question, for this particular construction how we specify that that's the information it provides? Or {disfmarker} or asked for? b Both sides, right? Grad D: Yeah, you don't need to even do that. It's just sort of what {vocalsound} what would be @ @ {comment} observed in uh {disfmarker} in that case. Grad A: Observed when you heard the speaker say" where is X" , or when {disfmarker} when that's been parsed? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So these little circles you have by the D? Is that {disfmarker}? OK. OK. Grad D: That's exactly what we're looking for. Grad B: I d I just {disfmarker} I don't like having {disfmarker} characterizing the constructions with location and path, or li characterizing them like that. Cuz you don't {disfmarker} It seems like in the general case you wouldn't know how {disfmarker} how to characterize them. Grad D: You wouldn't. Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} or, for when. There could be an interpretation that we don't have a node for in the {disfmarker} I mean it just seems like @ @ has to have uh {disfmarker} a node for the construction and then let the chips fall where they may. Versus uh, saying, this construction either can mean location or path. And, in this cas and since {disfmarker} since it can mean either of those things, it would light both of those up. Grad D: It's the same. Grad B: Thoughts? Questions? Grad E: I'm thinking about it. Grad D: It will be the same. Grad E: Um {disfmarker} Grad D: So I think r in here we have" I'll go there" , right? Grad B: Answers? Grad D: And we have our Info - on. So in my c my case, this would sort of make this {pause} happy, and this would make the Go - there happy. What you're saying is we have a Where - X question, Where - X node, that makes both happy. Right? That's what you're proposing, which is, in my mind just as fine. So w if we have a construction {pause} node," where is X" , it's gonna both get the po posterior probability that {disfmarker} it's Info - on up, Grad B: Mmm, yeah. Grad D: Info - on is True - up, and that Go - there is True - up, as well. Which would be exactly analogous to what I'm proposing is, this makes {disfmarker} uh makes something here true, and this makes something {disfmarker} also something here true, and this makes this True - up, and this makes this True - up as well. Grad E: I kinda like it better without that extra level of indirection too. You know with {disfmarker} with this points to this points to that, and so on because {vocalsound} I don't know, it {disfmarker} Grad A: Is - uh, Grad D: Yeah, because we get {disfmarker} we get tons of constructions I think. Because, you know, mmm people have many ways of asking for the same thing, Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, sure. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So un Grad B: I change I changed my mind actually. Grad A: So I agree with that. Grad E: OK. Grad A: I have a different kinda question, might be related, which is, OK so implicitly everything in EDU, we're always inferring the speaker intent, right? Like, what they want either, the information that they want, or {disfmarker} It's always information that they want probably, of some kind. Right? Or I {disfmarker} I don't know, or what's something that they {disfmarker} Grad D: The system doesn't massage you, no. No. Grad A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} OK. So, um, let's see. So I don't know if the {disfmarker} I mean i if th just there's more s here that's not shown that you {disfmarker} it's already like part of the system whatever, but," where is X" , like, the fact that it is, you know, a speech - act, whatever, it is a question. It's a question that, um, queries on some particular thing X, and X is that location. There's, like, a lot of structure in representing that. Grad D: Yep. Yeah. Grad A: So that seems different from just having the node" location - X" and that goes into EDU, right? Grad D: Yeah. {vocalsound} Precisely. That's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} Grad A: So tha is that what you're t talking about? Grad D: So, w Exactly. We have su we have specified two. Grad A: wh what kinds of structure we want. Grad D: OK, the next one would be here, just for mood. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: The next one would be what we can squeeze out of the uh I don't know, maybe we wanna observe the uh, um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh the length of {disfmarker} of the words used, and, or the prosody Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: and g a and t make conclusions about the user's intelligence. Grad A: OK. So in some ways {disfmarker} Grad D: I don't know, Grad A: um, so in some ways in the other sort of parallel set of mo more linguistic meetings we've been talking about possible semantics of some construction. Grad D: yeah. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right? Where it was the simulation that's, according to it {disfmarker} you know, that {disfmarker} that corresponds to it, and as well the {disfmarker} as discourse, whatever, conte infor in discourse information, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: such as the mood, and, you know, other stuff. So, are we looking for a sort of abbreviation of that, that's tailored to this problem? Cuz that {disfmarker} that has, you know, basically, you know, s it's in progress still it's in development still, but it definitely has various feature slots, attributes, um, bindings between things {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. U that's exactly r um, why I'm proposing {disfmarker} It's too early to have {disfmarker} to think of them {disfmarker} of all of these discourse things that one could possibly observe, Grad A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. Grad D: so let's just assume Grad A: For the subset of {disfmarker} Grad D: human beings are not allowed to ask anything but" where is X" . Grad A: OK. Grad D: This is the only utterance in the world. What could we observe from that? Grad A: OK. That exactly" where is X" , Grad D: In ter Grad A: not the {disfmarker} the choices of" where is X" or" how do I get to X" . Just" where is X" . Grad D: Just {disfmarker} just" where is X" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad D: And, but you know, do it {disfmarker} do it in such a way that we know that people can also say," is the town hall in front of the bank" , so that we need something like a w WH focus. Nuh? Should be {disfmarker} should be there, that, you know, this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} whatever we get from the {disfmarker} Grad A: Wait, so do, or do not take other kinds of constructions into account? Grad D: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you can, oh definitely do, Grad A: OK. Where possible. OK. Grad D: where possible. Right? If i if {disfmarker} if it's not at all triggered by our thing, then it's irrelevant, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and it doesn't hurt to leave it out for the moment. Um, but {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Um, it seems like for instance," where is X" , the fact that it might mean um," tell me how to get to X" , like {disfmarker} Do y So, would you wanna say that those two are both, like {disfmarker} Those are the two interpretations, right? the {disfmarker} the ones that are location or path. So, you could say that the s construction is a question asking about this location, and then you can additionally infer, if they're asking about the location, it's because they wanna go to that place, in which case, the {disfmarker} you're jumping a step {disfmarker} step and saying," oh, I know where it is Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: but I also know how to get {disfmarker} they wanna seem {disfmarker} they seem to wanna get there so I'm gonna tell them" . So there's like structure Grad E: Right, th this {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker} it's not that this is sort of like semantically ambiguous between these two. Grad A: i do you kn sort of uh, that {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: It's really about this but why would you care about this? Well, it's because you also want to know this, or something like that right? Grad A: So it's like you infer the speaker intent, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and then infer a plan, a larger plan from that, for which you have the additional information, Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: you're just being extra helpful. Grad D: Yep. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Think {disfmarker} Uh, well this is just a mental exercise. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: If you think about, focus on this question, how would you design {pause} that? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Is it {disfmarker} do you feel confident about saying this is part of the language already to {disfmarker} to detect those plans, and why would anyone care about location, if not, you know and so forth. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Or do you actually, I mean this is perfectly legitimate, and I {disfmarker} I would not have any problems with erasing this and say, that's all we can activate, based on the utterance out of context. Grad A: Mm - hmm. And just by an additional link {disfmarker} Oh. Grad D: What? Grad A: Right, Grad E: Right. Grad A: like, Grad D: And then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the miracle that we get out the intention, Go - there, happens, based on what we know about that entity, about the user, about his various beliefs, goals, desires, blah - blah - blah. Grad A: with context and enough user information, yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Absolutely fine. But this is the sort of thing, I {disfmarker} I propose that we think about, Grad A: OK. Grad D: so that we actually end up with um, um, nodes for the discourse and ontology so that we can put them into our Bayes - net, never change them, so we {disfmarker} all there is is" where is X" , and, Eva can play around with the observed things, and we can run our better JavaBayes, and have it produce some output. And for the first time in th in {disfmarker} in the world, we look at our output, and um {disfmarker} and see uh whether it {disfmarker} it's any good. Grad A: OK. Grad D: You know? I mean, Grad E: Here's hoping. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: Here's hoping. Right? Now cross your fingers. Grad D: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I mean, for me this is just a ba matter of curiosity, I wanna {disfmarker} would like to look at uh, what this ad - hoc process of designing a belief - net would actually produce. Grad E: Yeah. {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: If {disfmarker} if we ask it where is something. And, maybe it also h enables you to think about certain things more specifically, um, come up with interesting questions, to which you can find interesting answers. And, additionally it might fit in really nicely with the paper. Because if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we want an example for the paper, I suggest there it is. Grad E: Um - hmm. Yeah. Grad D: So th this might be a nice opening paragraph for the paper as saying," you know people look at kinds of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} at ambiguities" , and um, in the literature there's" bank" and whatever kinds of garden path phenomenon. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And we can say, well, that's all nonsense. A, A, uh these things are never really ambiguous in discourse, B, B, don't ever occur really in discourse, but normal statements that seem completely unambiguous, such as" where is the blah - blah" , actually are terribly complex, and completely ambiguous. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Grad D: And so, what every everybody else has been doing so far in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} you know, has been completely nonsensical, and can all go into the wastepaper bin, and the only {disfmarker} Grad E: That's always a good way to begin. Yeah. Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the only {disfmarker} Grad B: I am great. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: All others are useless. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: That's good. Grad D: Nice overture, but, you know, just not really {disfmarker} OK, I'm eja exaggerating, but that might be, you know, saying" hey" , you know, some stuff is {disfmarker} is actually complex, if you look at it in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the vacuum Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and {disfmarker} and ceases to be complex in reality. And some stuff that's as {disfmarker} that's absolutely straightforward in the vacuum, is actually terribly complex in reality. Would be nice sort of, uh, also, nice, um bottom - up linguistics, um, type message. Grad E: Mm - hmm. True. Grad D: Versus the old top - down school. I'm running out of time. OK. Grad B: When do you need to start wizarding? Grad D: At four ten. OK, this is the other bit of news. The subjects today know Fey, so she can't be here, and do the wizarding. So I'm gonna do the wizarding Grad E: Huh. Grad D: and Thilo's gonna do the instructing. Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: Also we're getting a {disfmarker} a person who just got fired uh, from her job. Uh a person from Oakland who is interested in maybe continuing the wizard bit once Fey leaves in August. And um, she's gonna look at it today. Which is good news in the sense that if we want to continue, after the thir thir after July, we can. We could. And, um {disfmarker} and that's also maybe interesting for Keith and whoever, if you wanna get some more stuff into the data collection. Remember this, we can completely change the set - up any time we want. Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: Look at the results we've gotten so far for the first, whatever, fifty some subjects? Grad A: Fifty? You've had fifty so far, or {disfmarker}? Grad D: No, we're approaching twenty now. Grad A: OK. Grad D: But, until Fey is leaving, we surely will hit the {disfmarker} some of the higher numbers. Grad A: Yeah. Hmm. Grad D: And um, so that's cool. Can a do more funky stuff. Grad E: Sure. Yeah, I'll have to look more into that data. Is that around? Like, cuz that's pretty much getting posted or something right away when you get it? Grad D: Um. Grad E: Or {disfmarker}? I guess it has to be transcribed, huh? Grad D: We have uh, eh found someone here who's hand st hand transcribing the first twelve. Grad E: OK. Grad D: First dozen subjects Grad E: Uh - huh. Grad D: just so we can build a {disfmarker} a language model for the recognizer. Grad E: OK. Grad D: But, um {disfmarker} So those should be available soon. Grad E: OK. Grad D: The first twelve. And I can ch ch st e Grad E: You know {disfmarker} I mean you know that I {disfmarker} that I looked at the first {disfmarker} the first one and got enough data to keep me going for, you know, probably most of July. So. {vocalsound} But, um. Yeah, a probably not the right way to do it actually. Grad D: But you can listen to {disfmarker} a y y y You can listen to all of them from your Solaris box. Grad E: OK. Grad D: If you want. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's always fun.

The Bayes-net is going to be the focus of the presentation. In order to complete a functioning prototype of the belief-net, it was decided to start expanding the Ontology and Discourse nodes by working with a simple construction, like" where is X?" . A robust analysis of such a basic utterance will indicate what the limits of the information derived from the construction are, as well as ways to design the whole module and fit other constructions in.

tr-gq-731

tr-gq-731_0

What was the meeting about? Grad E: As usual. Grad B: Yes. Whew! I almost forgot {pause} about the meeting. I woke up twenty minutes ago, thinking, what did I forget? Grad D: It's great how the br brain sort of does that. Grad E: Something's not right here. Grad B: Internal alarms. Grad D: OK. So the news for me is A, my forthcoming travel plans Grad B: Yes. Grad D: in two weeks from today? Yeah? More or less? I'll be off to Sicily and Germany for a couple, three days. Grad B: Now what are y what are you doing there? I forgot? Grad D: OK, I'm flying to Sicily basically to drop off Simon there with his grandparents. And then I'm flying to Germany t to go to a MOKU - Treffen which is the meeting of all the module - responsible people in SmartKom, Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: and, represent ICI and myself I guess there. And um. That's the mmm actual reason. And then I'm also going up to EML for a day, and then I'm going to {vocalsound} meet the very big boss, Wolfgang Walster, in Saarbruecken and the System system integration people in Kaiserslautern and then I'm flying back via Sicily pick up my son come back here on the fourth of July. And uh. Grad E: What a great time to be coming back to the Grad B: God bless America. Grad E: You'll see maybe {disfmarker} see the fireworks from your plane coming in. Grad D: And I'm sure all the {disfmarker} the people at the airport will be happy to work on that day. Grad E: Yeah. You'll get even better service than usual. Grad B: Wait, aren't you flying on Lufthansa though? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Alitalia. Grad B: Oh. Well then the {disfmarker} you know, it's not a big deal. Once you get to the United States it'll be a problem, but Grad D: Yeah. And um, that's that bit of news, and the other bit of news is we had {disfmarker} you know, uh, I was visited by my German project manager who A, did like what we did {disfmarker} what we're doing here, and B, is planning to come here either three weeks in July or three weeks in August, to actually work. Grad B: On {disfmarker}? Grad D: With us. Grad B: Oh. Grad D: And we sat around and we talked and he came up {disfmarker} we came up {disfmarker} with a pretty strange idea. And that's what I'm gonna lay on you now. And um, maybe it might be ultimately the most interesting thing for Eva because she has been known to complain about the fact that the stuff we do here is not weird enough. Grad C: OK. Grad D: So this is so weird it should even make you happy. Grad C: Uh. {comment} OK. Grad E: Oh great. Grad D: Imagine if you will, {vocalsound} that we have a system that does all that understanding that we want it to do based on utterances. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It should be possible to make that system produce questions. So if you have the knowledge of how to interpret" where is X?" under given conditions, situational, user, discourse and ontological {vocalsound} conditions, you should also be able to make that same system ask" where is X?" Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: in a sper certain way, based on certain intentions. So in instead of just being able to observe phenomenon, um, and, guess the intention we might be able just to sort of give it an intention, and make it produce an utterance. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Well, like in AI they generally do the take in, and then they also do the generation phase, like Nancy's thing. Or uh, you remember, in the {disfmarker} the hand thing in one - eighty - two, like not only was it able to recognize but it was also to generate based upon situations. You mean that sort of thing? Grad D: Absolutely. Grad B: OK. Grad D: And once you've done that what we can do is have the system ask itself. And answer, understand the answer, ask something else, and enter a dialogue with itself. So the {disfmarker} the ba basic {disfmarker} the same idea as having two chess computers play against each other. Grad E: Except this smacks a little bit more of a schizophrenic computer than AI. Grad D: Yeah you c if you want, you can have two parallel {vocalsound} machines um, asking each other. What would that give us? Would A be something completely weird and strange, and B, i if you look at all the factors, we will never observe people let's say, in wheelchairs under {disfmarker} you know, in {disfmarker} under all conditions, Grad E: That's good. Grad D: you know, when they say" X" , and there is a ride at the goal, and the parking is good, we can never collect enough data. It's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's not possible. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Right, right. Grad D: But maybe one could do some learning. If you get the system to speak to itself, you may find n break downs and errors and you may be able to learn. And make it more robust, maybe learn new things. And um, so there's no {disfmarker} no end of potential things one could get out of it, if that works. And he would like to actually work on that with us. Grad B: Well then, he probably should be coming back a year {pause} from now. Grad D: So Yeah, I w See the {disfmarker} the generation bit, making the system generate {disfmarker} generate something, {comment} is {disfmarker} shouldn't be too hard. Grad B: Well, once the system understands things. Grad E: Yeah. No problem. Grad B: I just don't think {disfmarker} I think we're probably a year away from getting the system to understand things. Grad D: Yeah. Well, if we can get it to understand one thing, like our" where is" run through we can also, maybe, e make it say, or ask" where is X?" Or not. Grad E: Mmm, I don't know. e I'm sort of {disfmarker} have the impression that getting it to say the right thing in the right circumstances is much more difficult than getting it to understand something given the circumstances and so on, you know, I mean just cuz it's sort of harder to learn to speak correctly in a foreign language, rather than learning to understand it. Right? I mean Grad D: Grad E: just the fact that we'll get {disfmarker} The point is that getting it to understand one construction doesn't mean that it will n always know exactly when it's correct to use that construction. Right? Grad D: It's {disfmarker} it's uh {disfmarker} Well, I've {disfmarker} I've done generation and language production research for fo four {disfmarker} four and a half years. And so it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} you're right, it's not the same as the understanding. It's in some ways easier and some ways harder. nuh? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: But, um, I think it'd be fun to look at it, or into that question. Grad E: Nnn, yeah. Grad D: It's a pretty strange idea. And so that's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Grad B: The basic idea I guess would be to give {disfmarker} allow the system to have intentions, basically? Cuz that's basically what needs to be added to the system for it. Grad D: Well, look at th eee, I think even {disfmarker} think even {disfmarker} What it {disfmarker} would be the {disfmarker} the prior intention. So let's uh {disfmarker} uh, let's say we have this {disfmarker} Grad B: Well we'd have to seed that, I mean. Grad D: No. Let's {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} we have some {disfmarker} some top - down processing, given certain setting. OK, now we change nothing, and just say ask something. Right? Grad B: Grad D: What would it ask? Grad B: It wouldn't know what to ask. I mean. Grad D: It shur Grad B: Unless it was in a situation. We'd have to set up a situation where, it didn't know where something was and it wanted to go there. Grad D: Yeah! Grad C: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Yeah. Grad B: Which means that we'd need to set up an intention inside of the system. Right? Which is basically," I don't know where something is and I need to go there" . Grad D: Eh, n Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Ooh, do we really need to do that? Because, Grad B: Well, no I guess not. Excel Grad D: s It's {disfmarker} i I know it's {disfmarker} it's strange, but look at it {disfmarker} look at our Bayes - net. If we don't have {disfmarker} Let's assume we don't have any input from the language. Right? So there's also nothing we could query the ontology, but we have a certain user setting. If you just ask, what is the likelihood of that person wanting to enter some {disfmarker} something, it'll give you an answer. Grad B: Sure. Grad D: Right? That's just how they are. And so, @ @ whatever that is, it's the generic default intention. That it would find out. Which is, wanting to know where something is, maybe nnn {disfmarker} and wanting {disfmarker} I don't know what it's gonna be, but there's gonna be something that Grad E: Well you're not gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna get a variety of intentions out of that then? I mean, you're just talking about like given this user, what's the th what is it {disfmarker} what is that user most likely to want to do? Grad D: Well you can observe some user and context stuff and ask, what's the posterior probabilities of all of our decision nodes. Grad E: And, have it talk about {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: You could even say," let's take all the priors, let's observe nothing" , and query all the posterior probabilities. It - it's gonna tell us something. Right? Grad B: Well, it will d r assign values to all the nodes. Yes. Grad D: And {disfmarker} Yes. And come up with posterior probabilities for all the values of the decision nodes. Which, if we have an algorithm that filters out whatever the {disfmarker} the best or the most consistent answer out of that, will give us the intention ex nihilo. And that is exactly what would happen if we ask it to produce an utterance, it would be b based on that extension, ex nihilo, which we don't know what it is, but it's there. So we wouldn't even have to {disfmarker} t to kick start it by giving it a certain intention or observing anything on the decision node. And whatever that {disfmarker} maybe that would lead to" what is the castle?" , Grad B: I'm just {disfmarker} Grad D: or" what is that whatever" . Grad B: I guess what I'm afraid of is if we don't, you know, set up a {pause} situation, {comment} we'll just get a bunch of garbage out, like you know, everything's exactly thirty percent. Grad D: No {disfmarker} Grad C: Mmm. Grad D: Yeah. So what we actually then need to do is {disfmarker} is write a little script that changes all the settings, you know, go goes through all the permutations, which is {disfmarker} we did a {disfmarker} didn't we calculate that once? Grad B: Well that was {disfmarker} that was absurdly low, in the last meeting, Grad D: It's a {disfmarker} Grad C: Uh, Grad B: cuz I went and looked at it cuz I was thinking, that could not be right, and it would {disfmarker} it was on the order of twenty output nodes and something like twenty {disfmarker} Grad C: And like thirty input nodes Grad B: thirty input nodes. Grad C: or some {disfmarker} Grad B: So to test every output node, uh, would at least {disfmarker} Let's see, so it would be two to the thirty for every output node? Which is very th very large. Grad D: Oh! That's n Grad E: Oh. Grad D: that's {disfmarker} that's nothing for those neural guys. I mean, they train for millions and millions of epochs. Grad B: Well, I'm talking about Grad D: So. Grad B: Oh, I was gonna take a drink of my water. I'm talking about billions and billions and billions and a number {disfmarker} two to the thirty is like a Bhaskara said, we had calculated out and Bhaskara believes that it's larger than the number of particles in the universe. And if i Grad E: I don't know if that's right or not. Th - that's big. That's just {disfmarker} That's uh {disfmarker} It's a billion, right? Grad B: Two to the thirty? Well, two to the thirty is a billion, but if we have to do it two to the twenty times, then that's a very very large number. Grad E: Right. Argh. Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah, that's big. Grad B: Cuz you have to query the node, for every a uh, or query the net two to the twenty times. Grad E: Sure. Alright. Grad B: Or not two to th excuse me, twenty times. Grad E: OK. So, is it t comes to twenty billion or something? Grad B: Yes. As far as {disfmarker} Grad E: That's pretty big, though. Grad B: That's @ @ {disfmarker} That's big. Actually {disfmarker} Oh! We calculated a different number before. How did we do that? Grad C: Hmm. Grad E: I remember there being some other one floating around. But anyway, uh. Grad C: I don't really know. Grad E: Yeah, it's g Anyway, the point is that given all of these different factors, it's uh e it's {disfmarker} it's still going to be impossible to run through all of the possible situations or whatever. Grad C: Ooo, it's just big. Grad E: But I mean, this'll get us a bit closer at least, right? I mean. Grad B: If it takes us a second to do, for each one, and let's say it's twenty billion, {comment} then that's twenty billion seconds, which is {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Eva, do the math. Grad C: Can't. Grad E: Long! Grad C: Grad B: Hours and hours and hours and hours. But we can do randomized testing. Grad E: Tah - dah! Grad B: Which probabilistically will be good enough. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. So, it be it it's an idea that one could n for {disfmarker} for example run {disfmarker} run past, um, what's that guy's name? You know? He - he's usually here. Tsk. J J Jer - Jerj Grad E: Here in the group? Jerry Feldman. Grad D: Oh, yeah. That's the guy. We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we g Grad B: Wait, who? Grad E: Yeah, i that would the g the bald guy. Grad B: Oh! My advisor! Grad D: And um. so this is just an idea that's floating around and we'll see what happens. And um, hmm, what other news do I have? Well we fixed some more things from the SmartKom system, but that's not really of general interest, Um, Oh! Questions, yeah. I'll ask Eva about the E Bayes and she's working on that. How is the generation XML thing? Grad B: I'm gonna work on that today and tomorrow. Grad D: OK. No need to do it today or tomorrow even. Do it next week or {disfmarker} Grad B: I'm gonna finish it today, uh hopefully. Grad D: OK. Grad B: I wanna do one of those things where I stay here. Cuz uh, if I go home, I can't finish it. I've tried about five times so far, where I work for a while and then I'm like, I'm hungry. So I go home, and then I think {disfmarker} Grad E: I'm not going back. Grad B: Yeah. Either that or I think to myself, I can work at home. And then I try to work at home, but I fail miserably. Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Like I ended up at Blakes last night. Grad E: Non - conducive. Grad B: No. I almost got into a brawl. But I did not finish the uh, But I've been looking into it. I th @ @ It's not like it's a blank slate. I found everything that I need and stu and uh, Grad D: But st Grad B: At the b uh furthermore, I told Jerry that I was gonna finish it before he got back. So. Grad D: OK. Grad E: That's approaching. He's coming back when? Uh next {disfmarker} Grad B: Well, I think {disfmarker} we think we'll see him definitely on Tuesday for the next {disfmarker} Or, no, wait. The meetings are on Thursday. Grad D: Maybe. Grad B: Maybe. Grad D: Who knows. Grad E: OK. Grad B: Well, we'll see him next week. Grad E: Alright. Grad D: That's good. Yeah. The paper. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: I was thinking about that. Grad D: Hmm. Grad B: I think I will try to work on the SmartKom stuff and I'll {disfmarker} if I can finish it today, I'll help you with that tomorrow, if you work on it? I don't have a problem with us working on it though? So. Grad D: OK. Grad B: And it {disfmarker} Grad D: So you would say it's funky cool. Grad B: I mean we just {disfmarker} I mean it wouldn't hurt to write up a paper, cuz then, I mean, yeah {disfmarker} I was talking with Nancy and Nancy said, you don't know whether you have a paper to {pause} write up until you write it up. So. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Well Grad B: And since Jerry's coming back, we can run it by him too. So. Grad D: Yep. Um, what's your input? Grad E: Well, um, I don't have much experience with uh, conference papers for compu in the computer science realm, and so when I looked at what you had, which was apparently a complete submission, I just sort of said what {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I didn't really know what to do with it, like, this is the sort of the basic outline of the system or whatever, or {disfmarker} or" here's an idea" , right? That's what that paper was," here's {disfmarker} here's one possible thing you could do" , Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: short, eight pages, and I just don't know what you have in mind for expanding. Like I'd {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I didn't do is go to the web site of the conference and look at what they're looking for or whatever. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Well, it seems to me that um {disfmarker} Grad B: Wait, is this a computer science conference or is it a {disfmarker} Grad D: Um, well it's more {disfmarker} It's both, right? It's {disfmarker} it's sort of t cognitive, neural, psycho, linguistic, but all for the sake of doing computer science. So it's sort of cognitive, psycho, neural, plausibly motivated, architectures of natural language processing. So it seems pretty interdisciplinary, and I mean, w w the keynote speaker is Tomasello and blah - blah - blah, Grad E: Right. Oh, yeah. Grad D: so, W the {disfmarker} the question is what could we actually do and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and keep a straight face while doing it. Grad B: Well, I really can't keep a straight face doing anything. Grad D: And i My idea is, Grad E: Setting that aside. Grad D: well, you can say we have done a little bit and that's this, and uh sort of the rest is position paper," we wanna also do that" . Which is not too good. Might be more interesting to do something like let's assume um, we're right, we have as Jerry calls it, a delusion of adequacy, and take a" where is X" sentence, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and say," we will just talk about this, and how we cognitively, neurally, psycho - linguistically, construction grammar - ally, motivated, envision uh, understanding that" . Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: So we can actually show how we parse it. That should be able to {disfmarker} we should be able to come up with, you know, a sort of a {disfmarker} a parse. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's on, just {disfmarker} just put it on. Grad A: I'm OK. Grad B: Did Ben harass you? Grad A: Yes. Grad B: Good. Grad A: Was he supposed to harass me? Grad B: Yes. Grad A: Well, he just told me that you came looking for me. Grad D: You don Grad B: Oh. Grad D: Grad A: figure this out. Grad D: You will suffer in hell, you know that. Grad E: Backwards. There's a s diagram somewhere which tells you how to put that {disfmarker} Grad A: I know, I didn't understand that either! Grad B: No wait. You have to put it on exactly like that, Grad D: This is it. Yeah. Grad B: so put that {disfmarker} those things over your ears like that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: See the p how the plastic things ar arch out like that? There we go. Grad A: OK. It hurts. Grad B: It hurts. It hurts real bad. Grad A: It does! I'm sorry I didn't mean to {disfmarker} Grad E: But that's what you get for coming late to the meeting. Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, oh these are all the same. OK! th this is not very {pause} on target. Grad B: Is your mike on? Grad C: An Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Yeah, it is. Grad B: OK. Grad A: Alright, you guys can continue talking about whatever you were talking about before. Grad E: Um, Grad D: We're talking about this um, alleged paper that we may, just, sort of w Grad A: Oh! Which Johno mentioned to me. Uh - huh. Grad D: Yeah. And I just sort of brought forth the idea that we take a sentence," Where is the Powder - Tower" , Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and we {disfmarker} we p pretend to parse it, we pretend to understand it, and we write about it. Grad E: Hmm. About how {vocalsound} all of these things {disfmarker} Grad A: What's the part that's not pretend? The writing? Grad D: OK, then we pretend to write about. Grad E: The submitting to a major international conference. {comment} {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Tha - {vocalsound} Which conference is it for? Grad D: It's the whatever, architectures, eh you know, where {disfmarker} There is this conference, it's the seventh already international conference, on neu neurally, cognitively, motivated, architectures of natural language processing. Grad A: Oh. Wow. Interesting. Grad D: And the keynote speakers are Tomasello, MacWhinney? Grad A: Whinney. {comment} MacWhinney. Uh - huh. Grad D: We - MacWhinney, I think. Grad E: Grad A: So, interesting, both, like, child language people. Grad D: Yeah. Yep. Grad A: OK. Grad D: So maybe you wanna write something too. Grad A: Yeah, maybe I wanna go. Um, why are they speaking at it if it {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. {vocalsound} Mmm. Grad A: is {disfmarker} is it normally like {disfmarker} like, dialogue systems, or, you know, other NLP - ish things? Grad D: No no no no no no no no. It's {disfmarker} it's like a {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, it's cognitive. OK. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Even neuro. Grad A: And uh, both learning and like, comprehension, production, that kinda stuff. Grad D: Psycho. You could look at the web site. Grad A: OK. Grad D: I'll {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. I don't know about it. Grad D: And the ad and {disfmarker} and the deadline is the fifteenth of June. Grad A: Yeah that's pretty soon. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hey. Plenty of time. Grad E: Why, we've got over a week! Grad D: It would be nice to go write two papers actually. Yeah. And one {disfmarker} one from your perspective, and one from our peve per per Grad A: Mm - hmm. I mean, th that's the kinda thing that maybe like, um, the general uh con sort of like NTL - ish like, whatever, the previous simulation based pers {comment} maybe you're talking about the same kind of thing. A general paper about the approach here would probably be appropriate. And good to do at some point anyway. Grad D: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Well, I {disfmarker} I also think that if we sort of write about what we have done in the past six months, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we could sort of craft a nice little paper that {pause} if it gets rejected, which could happen, doesn't hurt Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: because it's something we eh {disfmarker} Grad A: Having it is still a good thing. Grad D: having it is a good {disfmarker} good thing. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: It's a nice exercise, it's {disfmarker} I usually enjoy writing papers. It's not {disfmarker} I don't re regard it as a painful thing. Grad A: Mm - hmm. It's fun. Grad D: And um, we should all do more for our publication lists. And. It just never hurts. And Keith and - or Johno will go, probably. Grad B: Will I? Grad A: When is it and where? Grad D: In case of {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm! Grad D: It's on the twenty second of September, in Saarbruecken Germany. Grad A: Ah, it's in Germany. Ah, OK. I s I see. Tomasello's already in Germany anyway, so makes sense. OK. Grad E: Just {disfmarker} Grad A: Um. OK. So, is the {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} Are you just talking about you know, the details of how to do it, or whether to do it, or what it would be? Grad E: What would one possibly put in such a paper? Grad D: What to write about. Grad A: Or what to write about? Grad D: What is our {disfmarker} what's our take home message. What {disfmarker} what do we actually {disfmarker} Because I mean, it {disfmarker} I don't like papers where you just talk about what you plan to do. I mean, it's obvious that we can't do any kind of evaluation, and have no {disfmarker} you know, we can't write an ACL type paper where we say," OK, we've done this Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and now we're whatever percentage better than everybody else" . You know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: It's far too early for that. But uh, we {disfmarker} we can tell them what we think. I mean that's {disfmarker} never hurts to try. And um, maybe even {disfmarker} That's maybe the time to introduce the {disfmarker} the new formalism that you guys have cooked up. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: But that {disfmarker} Grad E: Are in the process of {disfmarker} Grad A: How many pages? Grad B: don't they need to finish the formalism? Grad D: It's just like four pages. Grad A: Four pages? Grad D: I mean it's {disfmarker} it's not even a h Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK, so it's a little thing. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Well, you said it was four thousand lines? Grad E: Oh. Grad B: Is that what you s Grad A: OK. Four pages is, like, really not very much space. Grad D: I don't know w Did you look at it? Yeah, it depends on the format. Grad E: Oh my gosh. Oh, I thought you were {disfmarker} I thought we were talking about something which was much more like ten or something. Grad D: No that's {disfmarker} I mean that's actually a problem. It's difficu it's more difficult to write on four pages than on eight. Grad A: It's {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: And it's also difficult to {disfmarker} even if you had a lot of substance, it's hard to demonstrate that in four pages, basically. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um. Grad E: That would be hard. Grad A: I mean it's still {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Grad D: Well I uh maybe it's just four thousand lines. I do I don't {disfmarker} They don't want any {disfmarker} They don't have a TeX f style @ @ guide. Grad A: Uh - huh, uh - huh. Grad D: They just want ASCII. Pure ASCII lines, Grad A: OK. Grad D: whatever. Why, for whatever reason, Grad A: Not including figures and such? Grad D: I don't know. I don't know. Very unspecific unfortunately. Grad A: OK. Well, Grad D: We'll just uh {disfmarker} Grad B: I would say that's closer to six pages actually. Four thousand lines of ASCII? Grad D: OK then. It's {disfmarker} Grad E: Four thousand lines. I mean. Isn't a isn't it about fifty s fifty five, sixty lines to a page? Grad D: I d don't quote me on this. This is numbers I {disfmarker} I have from looking o Grad B: How many characters are on a line? Grad D: OK. Grad A: ASCII? Grad D: Let's {disfmarker} let's {disfmarker} wh wh what should we {disfmarker} should {disfmarker} should we uh, um, discuss this over tea and all of us look at the web? Oh, I can't. I'm wizarding today. Grad A: OK, look at the web page? Grad D: Um. Grad A: Wha - w Grad D: Look at the web page and let's talk about it maybe tomorrow afternoon? Grad A: More cues for us to find it are like, neural cons Grad D: Johno will send you a link. Grad A: Oh, you have a link. OK. OK. Grad B: I got an email. Grad A: OK. Grad B: By the way, Keith is comfortable with us calling him" cool Keith" . Grad A: Oh. Cool. Keith. Grad E: He {disfmarker} he decided {vocalsound} I'm chilling in the five - one - O. Grad A: Cool," cool Keith" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Excellent. Grad D: OK. Grad A: That's a very cool T - shirt. Grad E: Thank you. Grad D: And I'm also flying {disfmarker} Grad E: I got this from the two one two. Grad A: New York? Excellent. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Yes? Grad D: I'm flying to Sicily next {disfmarker} in a w two weeks from now, Grad A: Oh, lucky you. Grad D: w and a week of business in Germany. I should mention that for you. And otherwise you haven't missed much, except for a really weird idea, but you'll hear about that soon enough. Grad A: The idea that you and I already know about? That you already told me? Not that {disfmarker} OK. Grad D: No, no, no. Yeah, that is something for the rest of the gang to {disfmarker} to g Grad E: The thing with the goats and the helicopters? Grad D: Change the watchband. It's time to walk the sheep. Grad C: like Grad A: OK. Grad D: Um. Did you catch that allusion? It's time to walk the sheep? Grad E: No. Grad D: It's a a uh presumably one of the Watergate codes they uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh. Grad D: Anyways, th um, um, don't make any plans for spring break next year. That's {disfmarker} Grad E: Oh, shoot. Grad D: That's the other thing. We're gonna do an int EDU internal workshop in Sicily. Grad A: That's what {disfmarker} That's what he says. Grad D: I've already got the funding. Grad A: I kn That's great! Grad D: So, I mean. Grad A: Does that mean {disfmarker} Does that mean you'll get {disfmarker} you'll fly us there? Grad E: We'll see. Grad D: No, that's {disfmarker} Yeah, that's what it means. Grad A: Hhh! OK, cool. Uh - a a Grad B: And he'll put us up, too. Grad E: Huh. Grad A: I know {disfmarker} I know about that part. I know about the {disfmarker} the almond trees and stuff. Not joking. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Name a vegetable, OK. {vocalsound} Oh, um, kiwi? Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mmm, too easy. Grad A: Coconut. Grad D: Ki Grad A: Pineapple. See? Mango? OK. OK. Too easy? Grad D: Too easy. Yeah, mangos go everywhere. Grad A: Really? Grad D: So do kiwi. Grad A: Oh. OK, but I was trying to find something that he didn't grow on his farm. Grad D: But coconut anana pineapple, that's {disfmarker} that's tricky, yeah. Grad A: Sorry. Anyway. Cantaloupe. Grad E: So, but we have to decide what, like, sort of the general idea of {disfmarker} Grad B: Potatoes. So. Sorry! Grad E: Um, I mean, we're gonna have an example case um, right? I m the {disfmarker} the point is to {disfmarker} like this" where is" case, or something. Grad D: Yeah, maybe you have {disfmarker} It would be kind of {disfmarker} The paper ha would have, in my vision, a nice flow if we could say, well here is th the {disfmarker} th here is parsing if you wanna do it c right, here is understanding if you wanna do it right, and you know {disfmarker} without going into technical {disfmarker} Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But then in the end we're not doing like those things right yet, right? Would that be clear in the paper or not? Grad D: That would be clear, we would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I mailed around a little paper that I have {disfmarker} Grad A: It would be like, this is the idea. Oh, I didn't get that, Grad D: w we could sort of say, this is {disfmarker} Grad A: did I? Oops. Did I? Grad D: No, Grad A: Oops. {comment} Sorry. Grad B: No, y I don't think you got it. Grad D: See this, if you if you're not around, and don't partake in the discussions, and you don't get any email, Grad A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. Grad D: and Grad A: OK, go on. So parsing done right {vocalsound} is like chicken done right. Grad D: Su So we could {disfmarker} we could say this is what {disfmarker} what's sort of state of the art today. Nuh? Grad A: OK. Grad D: And say, this is bad. Nuh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: And then we can say, uh well what we do is this. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: Parsing done right, interpretation done right, example. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. And Grad A: And how much to get into the cognitive neural part? Grad B: That's the only {disfmarker} That's the question mark. Grad D: We Grad B: Don't you need to reduce it if it's a {disfmarker} or reduce it, if it's a cognitive neuro {disfmarker} Grad A: Well, you don't have t I mean the conference may be cognitive neural, doesn't mean that every paper has to be both. Like, NLP cognitive neural. Grad D: Yeah, and you can {disfmarker} you can just point to the {disfmarker} to the literature, Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: you can say that construction - based You know {disfmarker} Grad A: So i so this paper wouldn't particularly deal with that side although it could reference the NTL - ish sort of, like, um, approach. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: The fact that the methods here are all compatible with or designed to be compatible with whatever, neurological {disfmarker} neuro neuro - biol su stuff. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah, I guess four pages you could {disfmarker} I mean you could definitely {disfmarker} it's definitely possible to do it. It's just {disfmarker} It'd just be small. Like introducing the formalism might be not really possible in detail, but you can use an example of it. Grad E: Well, l looking at {disfmarker} yeah, looking at that paper that {disfmarker} that you had, I mean you know, like, you didn't really explain in detail what was going on in the XML cases or whatever you just sorta said well, you know, here's the general idea, some stuff gets put in there. You know, hopefully you can {disfmarker} you can say something like constituents tells you what the construction is made out of, you know, without going into this intense detail. Grad A: Yeah, yeah. So it be like using the formalism rather than you know, introducing it per se. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad E: Give them the one paragraph whirlwind tour of w w what this is for, Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: and {disfmarker} Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: And people will sort of figure out or ask about the bits that are implicit. Grad D: Yeah. So this will be sort of documenting what we think, and documenting what we have in terms of the Bayes - net stuff. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And since there's never a bad idea to document things, no? Grad A: That's th that's definitely a good idea. Grad D: That would be my, uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} we should sketch out the details maybe tomorrow afternoon - ish, if everyone is around. I don't know. You probably wouldn't be part of it. Grad E: I think so. Grad D: Maybe you want? Think about it. Um, You may {disfmarker} may ruin your career forever, if you appear. Grad B: Yeah, you might get blacklisted. Grad D: And um, the uh, other thing, yeah we actually {disfmarker} Have we made any progress on what we decided, uh, last week? I'm sure you read the transcript of last week's meeting in red so sh so you're up to dated {disfmarker} caught up. Grad A: No. Sorry. Grad D: We decided t that we're gonna take a" where is something" question, and pretend we have parsed it, and see what we could possibly hope to observe on the discourse side. Grad B: Remember I came in and I started asking you about how we were sor going to sort out the uh, decision nodes? Grad A: Yes! What'd you say? Grad B: I remember you talking to me, just not what you said. Grad A: I do remember you talking to me. Um, a few more bits. Grad B: Well, there was like we needed to {disfmarker} or uh, in my opinion we need to design a Bayes {disfmarker} another sub - Bayes - net {disfmarker} You know, it was whether {disfmarker} it was whether we would have a Bayes - net on the output and on the input, Grad A: Oh. Grad B: or whether the construction was gonna be in the Bayes - net, Grad A: Oh, yeah. OK. Grad B: a and outside of it, Grad A: OK. Grad B: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So that was {disfmarker} was that the question? Was that what {disfmarker} Grad B: Well that was related to what we were talking about. Grad D: Should I introduce it as SUDO - square? Grad B: Yeah sure. Grad D: We have to put this in the paper. If we write it. This is {disfmarker} this is my only constraint. The {disfmarker} th So. The SUDO - square {nonvocalsound} is, {vocalsound}" Situation" ," User" ," Discourse" , right?" Ontology" . Grad E: Oh I saw the diagram in the office, Grad A: Oh my god, that's amazing! Grad D: Mmm. Yeah. Whatever. Grad A: No way. Grad E: Way! Grad D: Is it? Grad A: Someone's gonna start making Phil Collins jokes. Grad D: Yeah. Hmm? Grad A: Sorry. Grad B: What? Grad E: Oh, god, I hope not. Grad A: You guys are too young. Grad E: You know like" Sussudio" , Grad A: Yeah, come on. Grad E: that horrible, horrible song that should never have been created. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Grad A: I know, that was horrible. Sussudio. Grad B: I've blocked every aspect of Phil Collins out of my mind. Grad C: What? Grad A: I'm sorry, I haven't. Not on purpose. Grad E: in here Grad D: Oh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well, also he's talking about suicide, and that's {disfmarker} that's not a notion I wanna have evoked. Grad A: No, he's not. Really? Grad D: He is. Grad A: Oops. {comment} I didn't really listen to it, Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad A: I was too young. Grad E: Hmm. Grad A: Anyway. Grad E: It sounds too rocking for that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Anyway. So, what's going on here? So what are {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Grad D: So, Grad E: Was wollte der Kuenstler uns damit sagen? Grad A: Stop excluding me. Grad D: OK, so we have tons of little things here, Grad A: I can't believe that that's never been thought of before. Grad D: and we've Grad B: Wait, what are the dots? I don't remember what the dots were. Grad E: Those are little bugs. Grad A: Cool Keith. Grad D: OK. Grad A: Grad D: You know, these are our, whatever, belief - net decision nodes, and they all contribute to these {pause} {nonvocalsound} things down here. Grad B: Oh, oh. Grad A: Wait, wait, what's the middle thing? Grad D: That's EDU. Grad E: That's a c Grad D: e e Our e e e Grad A: But wh I mean {disfmarker} Grad E: That's {disfmarker} Grad D: You. We. Us. Grad A: But what is it? Grad D: Well, in the moment it's a Bayes - net. And it has sort of fifty not - yet - specified interfaces. OK. Eh {pause} I have taken care that we actually can build little interfaces, {nonvocalsound} to other modules that will tell us whether the user likes these things and, n the {disfmarker} or these things, and he {disfmarker} whether he's in a wheelchair or not, Grad A: OK. Is that supposed to be the international sign for interface? Grad D: I think so, yeah. Grad A: Mmm. OK. Grad B: I'd {disfmarker} I'd never seen it before either. Grad A: OK. Just t Cool. Grad D: Mmm. So. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Cuz things fit onto that, see? Grad A: Cool. Grad E: In a vaguely obscene fashion. Grad D: No, this is a RME core by agent design, I don't know. Grad A: That's so great. Grad D: There's maybe a different Grad E: So wait, what a what are these letters again, Situr - {comment} Situation, User, Discourse and Grad D: Situation, user, d ontology. Grad A: User? Grad E: Ontology. Grad A: What about the utterance? Grad C: Discourse. Grad D: That's here. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh, discourse. So that's not like context, OK. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Discourse is all things linguistic, yeah. Grad D: So this {disfmarker} this includes the {disfmarker} the current utterance plus all the previous utterances. Grad A: Interesting, uh - huh. User. Grad D: And for example w i s I Irena Gurevich is going to be here eh, end of July. Grad A: User. Grad D: She's a new linguist working for EML. And what she would like to do for example is great for us. She would like to take the ent ontolog Grad C: Ouch. Grad D: So, we have discussed in terms of the EVA {disfmarker} Grad A: Grateful for us? Grad D: uh {disfmarker} Grad A: Did you just say grateful for us? OK, sorry. Anyway. Grad D: Think of {disfmarker} back at the EVA vector, and Johno coming up with the idea that if the person discussed the {disfmarker} discussed the admission fee, in {disfmarker} eh previously, that might be a good indication that," how do I get to the castle?" , actually he wants to enter. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or, you know," how do I get to X?" discussing the admission fee in the previous utterance, is a good indication. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Grad D: So we don't want a hard code, a set of lexemes, or things, that person's you know, sort of filter, or uh search the discourse history. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: So what would be kind of cool is that if we encounter concepts that are castle, tower, bank, hotel, we run it through the ontology, and the ontology tells us it has um, admission, opening times, it has admission fees, it has this, it has that, and then we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we make a thesaurus lexicon, look up, and then search dynamically through the uh, discourse history for {pause} occurrences of these things in a given window of utterances. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And that might, you know, give us additional input to belief A versus B. Or E versus A. Grad A: So it's not just a particular word's {disfmarker} OK, so the {disfmarker} you're looking for a few keys that you know are cues to {disfmarker} sorry, a few specific cues to some intention. Grad B: You can dynamically look up keys, yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad E: Uh, so, wait {disfmarker} so um, since this {disfmarker} since this sort of technical stuff is going over my head, Grad B: And then grep, basically. Grad E: the {disfmarker} the point is that you uh {disfmarker} that when someone's talking about a castle, you know that it's the sort of thing that people are likely to wanna go into? Or, is it the fact that if there's an admission fee, then one of the things we know about admission fees is that you pay them in order to go in? And then the idea of entering is active in the discourse or something? And then Grad D: Well Grad E: blah - blah - blah? Grad D: the {disfmarker} the idea is even more general. Grad E: I mean. Grad D: The idea is to say, we encounter a certain entity in a {disfmarker} in a in a utterance. So le let's look up everything we {disfmarker} the ontology gives us about that entity, what stuff it does, what roles it has, what parts, whatever it has. Functions. And, then we look in the discourse, whether any of that, or any surface structure corresponding to these roles, functions aaa {comment} has ever occurred. Grad E: Oh, OK. Grad D: And then, the discourse history can t tell us," yeah" , or" no" . Grad E: OK. Grad D: And then it's up for us to decide what to do with it. t So i Grad E: OK. So {disfmarker} No, go ahead. Grad D: So, we may think that if you say um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound}" where is the theater" , um, whether or not he has talked about tickets before, then we {disfmarker} he's probably wanna go there to see something. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Or" where is the opera in Par - Paris? , Grad E: OK. Grad D: yeah? Lots of people go to the opera to take pictures of it and to look at it, Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: and lots of people go to attend a performance. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And, the discourse can maybe tell us w what's more likely if we know what to look for in previous statements. And so we can hard code" for opera, look for tickets, look for this, look for that, Grad E: OK. OK. Grad D: or look for Mozart, look for thi" but the smarter way is to go via the ontology and dynamically, then look up u stuff. Grad E: OK. But you're still doing look up so that when the person {disfmarker} So the point is that when the person says," where is it?" then you sort of say, let's go back and look at other things and then decide, rather than the other possibility which is that {pause} all through discourse as they talk about different things {disfmarker} You know like w prior to the" where is it" question they say, you know," how much does it cost to get in, you know, to {disfmarker} to see a movie around here" , um, {vocalsound}" where is the closest theater" {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the point is that by mentioning admission fees, that just sort of stays active now. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: You know. That becomes part of like, their sort of current ongoing active conceptual structure. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: And then, um, over in your Bayes - net or whatever, when {disfmarker} when the person says" where is it" , you've already got, you know since they were talking about admission, and that evokes the idea of entering, um, then when they go and ask" where is it" , then you're Enter node is already active Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: because that's what the person is thinking about. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: I mean that's the sort of cognitive linguistic - y way, Grad D: Yeah, e ultimately that's also what we wanna get at. Grad E: and probably not practical. Grad D: I think that's {disfmarker} that's the correct way. So, of course we have to keep memory of what was the last intention, and how does it fit to this, and what does it tell us, in terms of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what we're examining. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mmm, yeah. Grad D: And furthermore, I mean we can idealize that, you know, people don't change topics, Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: but they do. But, even th for that, there is a student of ours who's doing a dialogue act um, recognition module. Grad E: Right. Mm - hmm. Grad D: So, maybe, we're even in a position where we can take your approach, which is of course much better, as to say how {disfmarker} how do these pieces {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. And much harder to r program. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: And much harder to p to program. Grad D: Yeah. How {disfmarker} how do these pieces fit together? Uh - huh. And um. But, OK, nevertheless. So these are issues but we {disfmarker} what we actually decided last week, is to, and this is, again, for your benefit {disfmarker} is to um, pretend we have observed and parsed an utterance such as" where is the Powder - Tower" , or" where is the zoo" , and specify um, what {disfmarker} what we think the {disfmarker} the output uh, observe, out {disfmarker} i input nodes for our Bayes - nets for the sub sub - D, for the discourse bit, should be. So that {disfmarker} And I will {disfmarker} I will then {comment} {vocalsound} come up with the ontology side uh, bits and pieces, so that we can say, OK we {disfmarker} we always just look at this utterance. That's the only utterance we can do, it's hard coded, like Srini, sort of hand parsed, hand crafted, but this is what we hope to be able to observe in general from utterances, and from ontologies, and then we can sort of fiddle with these things to see what it actually produces, in terms of output. Grad E: Uh Grad D: So we need to find out what the" where is X" construction will give us in terms of semantics and {vocalsound} Simspec type things. Grad A: Just {disfmarker} OK. Just" where is X" ? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Or any variants of that. Grad D: Yeah. No! Um, look at it this way, i Yeah. What did we decide. We decided sort of the {disfmarker} the prototypical" where is X" , where you know, we don't really know, does he wanna go there, or just wanna know where it is. Grad E: Well we were Grad D: So the difference of" where is the railway station" , versus where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker}" where is Greenland" . Nuh? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Uh s I was just dancing, sorry. Grad D: We're not videotaping any of this. So. Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} ah {disfmarker} Grad E: So, um, we're supposed to {disfmarker} I mean we're talking about sort of anything that has the semantics of request for location, right? actually? Or, I mean, anyway, the node in the uh {disfmarker} the ultimate, uh, in {disfmarker} in the Bayes - net thing when you're done, the {disfmarker} the node that we're talking about um, is one that says" request for location, true" , or something like that, right? Um, and {disfmarker} and exactly how that gets activated, you know, like whether we want the sentence" how do I get there?" to activate that node or not, you know, that's {disfmarker} that's sort of the issue that sort of the linguistic - y side has to deal with, right? Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} Yea - Nnn Well actually more {disfmarker} m more the other way around. We wanted something that represents uncertainty uh we in terms of going there or just wanting to know where it is, for example. Some generic information. Grad E: OK. Grad D: And so this is prototypically @ @ found in the" where is something" question, surface structure, Grad E: OK. Grad B: We Grad D: which can be p you know, should be maps to something that activates both. I mean the idea is to {disfmarker} Grad B: I don't {disfmarker} Grad E: Alright, OK. Grad B: Hhh. I guess. I don't {disfmarker} Grad D: let's have it fit nicely with the paper. Grad B: I don't see unde how we would be able to distinguish between the two intentions just from the g utterance, though. Grad D: The {disfmarker} Grad B: I mean, uh bef or, before we don't {disfmarker} before we cranked it through the Bayes - net. I mean. Grad D: Yeah, we {disfmarker} we wouldn't. That's exactly what we want. Grad B: We would? Grad D: We want to get {disfmarker} No. We wouldn't. Grad B: OK, but then so basically it's just a {disfmarker} for every construction we have a node in the net, right? And we turn on that node. Grad D: Yeah. What {disfmarker} what is this gonna {disfmarker} Grad E: Oy. Grad D: Exactly. What is the uh {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Grad B: And then given that we know that {pause} the construction {pause} has these two things, we can set up probabilities {disfmarker} we can s basically define all the tables for ev for those {disfmarker} Grad D: Yeah, it should be {disfmarker} So we have um, i let's assume we {disfmarker} we call something like a loc - X node and a path - X node. And what we actually get if we just look at the discourse," where is X" should activate or should {disfmarker} Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Hmm. Should be both, whereas maybe" where is X located" , we find from the data, is always just asked when the person wants to know where it is, and" how do I get to" is always asked when the person just wants to know how to get there. Right? So we want to sort of come up with what gets uh, input, and how inter in case of a" where is" question. So what {disfmarker} what would the outcome of {disfmarker} of your parser look like? And, what other discourse information from the discourse history could we hope to get, squeeze out of that utterance? So define the {disfmarker} the input into the Bayes - net {vocalsound} based on what the utterance," where is X" , gives us. So definitely have an Entity node here which is activated via the ontology, Grad A: s Grad D: so" where is X" produces something that is s stands for X, whether it's castle, bank, restroom, toilet, whatever. And then the ontology will tell us {disfmarker} Grad A: That it has a location or something like that? {disfmarker} or th the ontology will tell us where actually it is located? Grad D: No. Not at all. Grad A: OK. Grad D: Where it is located, we have, a user proximity node here somewhere, Grad A: OK. OK. Grad D: e which tells us how far the user {disfmarker} how far away the user is in respect to that uh entity. Grad A: OK. So you're talking about, for instance, the construction obviously involves this entity or refers {disfmarker} refers to this entity, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and from the construction also you know that it is a location {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} or a thing {disfmarker} thing that can be located. Right? Ontology says this thing has a location slot. Sh - and that's the thing that is being {disfmarker} that is the content of the question that's being queried by one interpretation of" where is X" . And another one is, um, path from current {disfmarker} user current location to {comment} that location. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So. So is the question {disfmarker} I mean it's just that I'm not sure what the {disfmarker} Is the question, for this particular construction how we specify that that's the information it provides? Or {disfmarker} or asked for? b Both sides, right? Grad D: Yeah, you don't need to even do that. It's just sort of what {vocalsound} what would be @ @ {comment} observed in uh {disfmarker} in that case. Grad A: Observed when you heard the speaker say" where is X" , or when {disfmarker} when that's been parsed? Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So these little circles you have by the D? Is that {disfmarker}? OK. OK. Grad D: That's exactly what we're looking for. Grad B: I d I just {disfmarker} I don't like having {disfmarker} characterizing the constructions with location and path, or li characterizing them like that. Cuz you don't {disfmarker} It seems like in the general case you wouldn't know how {disfmarker} how to characterize them. Grad D: You wouldn't. Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} or, for when. There could be an interpretation that we don't have a node for in the {disfmarker} I mean it just seems like @ @ has to have uh {disfmarker} a node for the construction and then let the chips fall where they may. Versus uh, saying, this construction either can mean location or path. And, in this cas and since {disfmarker} since it can mean either of those things, it would light both of those up. Grad D: It's the same. Grad B: Thoughts? Questions? Grad E: I'm thinking about it. Grad D: It will be the same. Grad E: Um {disfmarker} Grad D: So I think r in here we have" I'll go there" , right? Grad B: Answers? Grad D: And we have our Info - on. So in my c my case, this would sort of make this {pause} happy, and this would make the Go - there happy. What you're saying is we have a Where - X question, Where - X node, that makes both happy. Right? That's what you're proposing, which is, in my mind just as fine. So w if we have a construction {pause} node," where is X" , it's gonna both get the po posterior probability that {disfmarker} it's Info - on up, Grad B: Mmm, yeah. Grad D: Info - on is True - up, and that Go - there is True - up, as well. Which would be exactly analogous to what I'm proposing is, this makes {disfmarker} uh makes something here true, and this makes something {disfmarker} also something here true, and this makes this True - up, and this makes this True - up as well. Grad E: I kinda like it better without that extra level of indirection too. You know with {disfmarker} with this points to this points to that, and so on because {vocalsound} I don't know, it {disfmarker} Grad A: Is - uh, Grad D: Yeah, because we get {disfmarker} we get tons of constructions I think. Because, you know, mmm people have many ways of asking for the same thing, Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, sure. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad A: So un Grad B: I change I changed my mind actually. Grad A: So I agree with that. Grad E: OK. Grad A: I have a different kinda question, might be related, which is, OK so implicitly everything in EDU, we're always inferring the speaker intent, right? Like, what they want either, the information that they want, or {disfmarker} It's always information that they want probably, of some kind. Right? Or I {disfmarker} I don't know, or what's something that they {disfmarker} Grad D: The system doesn't massage you, no. No. Grad A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} OK. So, um, let's see. So I don't know if the {disfmarker} I mean i if th just there's more s here that's not shown that you {disfmarker} it's already like part of the system whatever, but," where is X" , like, the fact that it is, you know, a speech - act, whatever, it is a question. It's a question that, um, queries on some particular thing X, and X is that location. There's, like, a lot of structure in representing that. Grad D: Yep. Yeah. Grad A: So that seems different from just having the node" location - X" and that goes into EDU, right? Grad D: Yeah. {vocalsound} Precisely. That's {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} Grad A: So tha is that what you're t talking about? Grad D: So, w Exactly. We have su we have specified two. Grad A: wh what kinds of structure we want. Grad D: OK, the next one would be here, just for mood. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: The next one would be what we can squeeze out of the uh I don't know, maybe we wanna observe the uh, um, {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh the length of {disfmarker} of the words used, and, or the prosody Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: and g a and t make conclusions about the user's intelligence. Grad A: OK. So in some ways {disfmarker} Grad D: I don't know, Grad A: um, so in some ways in the other sort of parallel set of mo more linguistic meetings we've been talking about possible semantics of some construction. Grad D: yeah. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right? Where it was the simulation that's, according to it {disfmarker} you know, that {disfmarker} that corresponds to it, and as well the {disfmarker} as discourse, whatever, conte infor in discourse information, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: such as the mood, and, you know, other stuff. So, are we looking for a sort of abbreviation of that, that's tailored to this problem? Cuz that {disfmarker} that has, you know, basically, you know, s it's in progress still it's in development still, but it definitely has various feature slots, attributes, um, bindings between things {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Yeah. U that's exactly r um, why I'm proposing {disfmarker} It's too early to have {disfmarker} to think of them {disfmarker} of all of these discourse things that one could possibly observe, Grad A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. Grad D: so let's just assume Grad A: For the subset of {disfmarker} Grad D: human beings are not allowed to ask anything but" where is X" . Grad A: OK. Grad D: This is the only utterance in the world. What could we observe from that? Grad A: OK. That exactly" where is X" , Grad D: In ter Grad A: not the {disfmarker} the choices of" where is X" or" how do I get to X" . Just" where is X" . Grad D: Just {disfmarker} just" where is X" . Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: OK. Grad D: And, but you know, do it {disfmarker} do it in such a way that we know that people can also say," is the town hall in front of the bank" , so that we need something like a w WH focus. Nuh? Should be {disfmarker} should be there, that, you know, this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} whatever we get from the {disfmarker} Grad A: Wait, so do, or do not take other kinds of constructions into account? Grad D: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you can, oh definitely do, Grad A: OK. Where possible. OK. Grad D: where possible. Right? If i if {disfmarker} if it's not at all triggered by our thing, then it's irrelevant, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and it doesn't hurt to leave it out for the moment. Um, but {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. Um, it seems like for instance," where is X" , the fact that it might mean um," tell me how to get to X" , like {disfmarker} Do y So, would you wanna say that those two are both, like {disfmarker} Those are the two interpretations, right? the {disfmarker} the ones that are location or path. So, you could say that the s construction is a question asking about this location, and then you can additionally infer, if they're asking about the location, it's because they wanna go to that place, in which case, the {disfmarker} you're jumping a step {disfmarker} step and saying," oh, I know where it is Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: but I also know how to get {disfmarker} they wanna seem {disfmarker} they seem to wanna get there so I'm gonna tell them" . So there's like structure Grad E: Right, th this {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker} it's not that this is sort of like semantically ambiguous between these two. Grad A: i do you kn sort of uh, that {disfmarker} Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad E: It's really about this but why would you care about this? Well, it's because you also want to know this, or something like that right? Grad A: So it's like you infer the speaker intent, Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and then infer a plan, a larger plan from that, for which you have the additional information, Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad A: you're just being extra helpful. Grad D: Yep. Grad A: Um. Grad D: Think {disfmarker} Uh, well this is just a mental exercise. Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: If you think about, focus on this question, how would you design {pause} that? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: Is it {disfmarker} do you feel confident about saying this is part of the language already to {disfmarker} to detect those plans, and why would anyone care about location, if not, you know and so forth. Grad E: Mmm. Grad D: Or do you actually, I mean this is perfectly legitimate, and I {disfmarker} I would not have any problems with erasing this and say, that's all we can activate, based on the utterance out of context. Grad A: Mm - hmm. And just by an additional link {disfmarker} Oh. Grad D: What? Grad A: Right, Grad E: Right. Grad A: like, Grad D: And then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the miracle that we get out the intention, Go - there, happens, based on what we know about that entity, about the user, about his various beliefs, goals, desires, blah - blah - blah. Grad A: with context and enough user information, yeah. Grad E: Yeah. Grad D: Absolutely fine. But this is the sort of thing, I {disfmarker} I propose that we think about, Grad A: OK. Grad D: so that we actually end up with um, um, nodes for the discourse and ontology so that we can put them into our Bayes - net, never change them, so we {disfmarker} all there is is" where is X" , and, Eva can play around with the observed things, and we can run our better JavaBayes, and have it produce some output. And for the first time in th in {disfmarker} in the world, we look at our output, and um {disfmarker} and see uh whether it {disfmarker} it's any good. Grad A: OK. Grad D: You know? I mean, Grad E: Here's hoping. Grad D: Hmm? Grad E: Here's hoping. Right? Now cross your fingers. Grad D: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I mean, for me this is just a ba matter of curiosity, I wanna {disfmarker} would like to look at uh, what this ad - hoc process of designing a belief - net would actually produce. Grad E: Yeah. {comment} Yeah. Grad A: Mmm. Grad D: If {disfmarker} if we ask it where is something. And, maybe it also h enables you to think about certain things more specifically, um, come up with interesting questions, to which you can find interesting answers. And, additionally it might fit in really nicely with the paper. Because if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we want an example for the paper, I suggest there it is. Grad E: Um - hmm. Yeah. Grad D: So th this might be a nice opening paragraph for the paper as saying," you know people look at kinds of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} at ambiguities" , and um, in the literature there's" bank" and whatever kinds of garden path phenomenon. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: And we can say, well, that's all nonsense. A, A, uh these things are never really ambiguous in discourse, B, B, don't ever occur really in discourse, but normal statements that seem completely unambiguous, such as" where is the blah - blah" , actually are terribly complex, and completely ambiguous. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Grad D: And so, what every everybody else has been doing so far in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} you know, has been completely nonsensical, and can all go into the wastepaper bin, and the only {disfmarker} Grad E: That's always a good way to begin. Yeah. Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the only {disfmarker} Grad B: I am great. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: All others are useless. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: That's good. Grad D: Nice overture, but, you know, just not really {disfmarker} OK, I'm eja exaggerating, but that might be, you know, saying" hey" , you know, some stuff is {disfmarker} is actually complex, if you look at it in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the vacuum Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad D: and {disfmarker} and ceases to be complex in reality. And some stuff that's as {disfmarker} that's absolutely straightforward in the vacuum, is actually terribly complex in reality. Would be nice sort of, uh, also, nice, um bottom - up linguistics, um, type message. Grad E: Mm - hmm. True. Grad D: Versus the old top - down school. I'm running out of time. OK. Grad B: When do you need to start wizarding? Grad D: At four ten. OK, this is the other bit of news. The subjects today know Fey, so she can't be here, and do the wizarding. So I'm gonna do the wizarding Grad E: Huh. Grad D: and Thilo's gonna do the instructing. Grad B: Mmm. Grad D: Also we're getting a {disfmarker} a person who just got fired uh, from her job. Uh a person from Oakland who is interested in maybe continuing the wizard bit once Fey leaves in August. And um, she's gonna look at it today. Which is good news in the sense that if we want to continue, after the thir thir after July, we can. We could. And, um {disfmarker} and that's also maybe interesting for Keith and whoever, if you wanna get some more stuff into the data collection. Remember this, we can completely change the set - up any time we want. Grad E: Mm - hmm. OK. Grad D: Look at the results we've gotten so far for the first, whatever, fifty some subjects? Grad A: Fifty? You've had fifty so far, or {disfmarker}? Grad D: No, we're approaching twenty now. Grad A: OK. Grad D: But, until Fey is leaving, we surely will hit the {disfmarker} some of the higher numbers. Grad A: Yeah. Hmm. Grad D: And um, so that's cool. Can a do more funky stuff. Grad E: Sure. Yeah, I'll have to look more into that data. Is that around? Like, cuz that's pretty much getting posted or something right away when you get it? Grad D: Um. Grad E: Or {disfmarker}? I guess it has to be transcribed, huh? Grad D: We have uh, eh found someone here who's hand st hand transcribing the first twelve. Grad E: OK. Grad D: First dozen subjects Grad E: Uh - huh. Grad D: just so we can build a {disfmarker} a language model for the recognizer. Grad E: OK. Grad D: But, um {disfmarker} So those should be available soon. Grad E: OK. Grad D: The first twelve. And I can ch ch st e Grad E: You know {disfmarker} I mean you know that I {disfmarker} that I looked at the first {disfmarker} the first one and got enough data to keep me going for, you know, probably most of July. So. {vocalsound} But, um. Yeah, a probably not the right way to do it actually. Grad D: But you can listen to {disfmarker} a y y y You can listen to all of them from your Solaris box. Grad E: OK. Grad D: If you want. Grad E: Right. Grad D: It's always fun.

An idea for future work was suggested during the visit of the german project manager: the possibility to use the same system for language generation. Setting up certain inputs in the Bayes-net would imply certain intentions, which would trigger dialogues. There is potential to make a conference paper out of presenting the current work and the project aspirations within a parsing paradigm. The focus should be the Bayes-net, to which all other modules interface. Situation, User, Discourse and Ontology feed into the net to infer user intentions. It was suggested that they start analysing what the Discourse and Ontology would give as inputs to the Bayes-net.

tr-sq-732

tr-sq-732_0

Language generation Grad B: Sorry. Mental {disfmarker} mental Palm Pilot. Right. Hence {pause} no problem. Grad F: Let's see. So. What? I'm supposed to be on channel five? Her. Nope. Doesn't seem to be, Grad B: Hello {pause} I'm channel one. Grad F: yeah. Grad D: Grad E: What does your thing say on the back? Grad D: Testing. Grad F: Nnn, five. Alright, I'm five. Grad D: Sibilance. Sibilance. {comment} {pause} Three, three. I am three. Grad B: Eh. Grad D: See, that matches the seat up there. So. Grad F: Yeah, well, I g guess {pause} it's coming up then, or {disfmarker} Grad D: Cuz it's {disfmarker} That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one. Ergo, the classic off - by - one error. Grad B: But mine is correct. Grad D: Is it? Grad E: No. Grad B: It's one. Channel one. Grad D: Your mike {pause} number {pause} is what we're t Grad E: Look at the back. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh! Oh. Grad D: Ho! Grad B: So {disfmarker} Grad D: I've bested you again, Nancy. Grad B: But your p No, but the paper's correct. Grad D: The paper is correct. Grad B: Look at the paper. Grad D: I didn't det I was saying the microphone, not the paper. Professor C: Nnn, Grad B: Oh. Professor C: it's n Grad B: OK. Professor C: It's always offset. Yeah. Grad B: Yes, you've bested me again. That's how I think of our continuing interaction. Damn! Foiled again! Grad D: So is Keith showing up? He's talking with George right now. Uh, is he gonna get a rip {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} rip himself away from {disfmarker} from that? Grad B: He'll probably come later. Professor C: What {disfmarker} He - he he's probably not, is my guess. Grad D: Oh, then it's just gonna be the five of us? Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: Well, he {disfmarker} he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four. But {pause} you know, that was before he knew about that George lecture probably. Professor C: Right. This {disfmarker} this is not {disfmarker} It's not bad for the project if Keith is talking to George. OK. So my suggestion is we just Grad B: Forge ahead. Professor C: Forge ahead, yeah. Grad E: Cool. Grad B: Are you in charge? Grad E: Sure. Um. Well, I sort of had informal talks with most of you. So, Eva just reported she's really happy about the {pause} CBT's being in the same order in the XML as in the um {disfmarker} be Java declaration format Grad F: Yeah. The e Grad E: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion. Grad F: Uh, yeah. Yeah, so. Grad E: The {disfmarker} uh, Java {disfmarker} the embedded Bayes {pause} wants to take input {disfmarker} uh, uh, a Bayes - net {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that's output by the Java Bayes for the {disfmarker} into the, uh, E Bayes input. Grad D: Mmm. Grad F: Actually, maybe I could try, like, emailing the guy and see if he has any something already. Professor C: Sure. Grad E: Hmm. Grad F: That'd be weird, that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in {disfmarker} Grad D: But that's some sort of conversion program? Grad F: Yeah. Yeah. And put them into different {pause} formats. Oh {disfmarker} Grad D: I think you should demand things from him. Grad F: Yep, he could do that, too. Professor C: He charges so much. Right. Grad D: Yeah. Professor C: No, I think it's a good idea that you may as well ask. Sure. Grad F: Yeah. Grad E: And, um, well {pause} pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list, I would have asked Keith how the" where is X?" {pause} hand parse is standing. Um. {pause} But we'll skip that. Uh, there's good news from Johno. The generation templates are done. Grad D: So the trees {pause} for {disfmarker} the XML trees for the {disfmarker} for the gene for the synthesizer are written. So I just need to {pause} do the, uh {disfmarker} write a new set of {pause} tree combining rules. But I think those'll be pretty similar to the old ones. So. Just gonna be {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} Professor C: Oh! You were gonna send me a note about hiring {disfmarker} Grad E: Yes. Professor C: I didn't finish the sentence but he understood it. Grad D: I know what he's talking about. Professor C: OK. But Nancy doesn't. Grad B: Hiring somebody. Grad E: We {disfmarker} w um {disfmarker} Grad D: The guy. Grad E: OK, so {pause} natural language generation {pause} produces not a {disfmarker} just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but, a {pause} surface string with a syntax tree that's fed into a concept - to - speech. Professor C: No. Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Better. Grad E: Now and this concept - to - speech module has {pause} certain rules on how {pause} if you get the following syntactic structure, how to map this onto prosodic rules. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Sure. Mm - hmm. Grad E: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite uh, the German concept uh syntax - to - prosody rules {disfmarker} Grad B: I didn't know she spoke German. Grad E: No, she doesn't. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: But she speaks English. Grad B: Oh. Rewrite the German ones into English. OK, got it. Grad E: Into English. And um therefore {pause} the, uh {disfmarker} if it's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week, then {pause} she'll do that. Grad B: OK, got it. Grad D: What {pause} language is that {pause} written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me? Grad E: Yeah. That's the LISP - type scheme. Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme? I hope? Grad E: No, I {disfmarker} My guess is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I asked for a commented version of that file? If we get that, then it's {pause} doable, even without getting into it, even though the Scheme li uh, stuff is really well documented in the {pause} Festival. Grad D: Well, I guess if you're not used to functional programming, Scheme can be completely incomprehensible. Cuz, there's no {disfmarker} Like {pause} there's lots of unnamed functions Professor C: Syntax. Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: You know? Professor C: Anyway, it {disfmarker} We'll sort this out. Um. But anyway, send me the note and then I'll - I'll check with, uh, Morgan on the money. I {disfmarker} I don't anticipate any problem but we have to {pause} ask. Oh, so this was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} You know, on the generation thing, um if {comment} sh y she's really going to do that, then we should be able to get prosody as well. So it'll say it's nonsense with perfect intonation. Grad D: Are we gonna {disfmarker} Can we change the voice of the {disfmarker} of the thing, because right now the voice sounds like a murderer. Grad E: Yep. We ha we have to change the voice. Grad B: Wh - Which one? Grad D: The {disfmarker} the little Smarticus {disfmarker} Smarticus sounds like a murderer. Grad B: Oh. Grad A: That's good to know. Grad D:" I have your reservations." Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair. Grad E: It is {disfmarker} Uh, we have the choice between the, uh, usual Festival voices, which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they're really bad. Grad B: Festival? Professor C: It's the name of some program, Grad B: Oh, oh. Got it. OK. Professor C: the {disfmarker} the synthesizer. Grad A: You know, the usual party voices. Grad E: But, um Grad B: Yeah, I know. That doesn't sound, {vocalsound} exactly right either. Grad E: OGI has, uh, crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we're going to use {pause} that. We can still, um, d agree on a gender, if we want. So we still have male or female. Grad B: I think {disfmarker} Well, let's just pick whatever sounds best. Grad E: Hmm? Grad B: Whatever sounds best. Grad E: Uh. Grad B: Unfortunately, probably male voices, a bit more research on. Grad D: Does OGI stand for {disfmarker}? {comment} Original German Institute? Professor C: Orego Grad B: So. Professor C: Or Grad E: Oregon. Grad B: Oregon Graduate Insti Professor C: Oregon @ @ {comment} Graduate Institute Grad D: Oh. Grad E: Try Oregon. Grad D: Ah. Professor C: It turns out there's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group. Grad B: Hmm! Professor C: Very long. Grad D: Hmm! Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: In fact, there's this guy who's basically got a joint appointment, Hynek {pause} Hermansky. He's - spends a fair amount of time here. Anyway. Leave it. Won't be a problem. Grad E: OK. And it's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to, um learn that as of twenty minutes ago, David and I, per accident, uh managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the {disfmarker} uh, ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from {pause} one on my laptop to three. Grad B: Mmm, that's good. Grad D: How was this by accident? Grad B: Yeah, I know. Tha - that's the part I didn't understand. Grad E: Um, I suggested to try something that was really kind of {disfmarker} even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked, but it worked. Grad B: Hmm! Grad E: Intuition. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Will it work again, Grad E: Maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing. Grad B: or {disfmarker}? Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: OK. And, um, we'll never found out why. It - it's just like why {disfmarker} why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working? Grad A: Hmm! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer, right? Grad E: Which Grad A: You know, {comment} and it's cool, it works out that way. Grad E: Hmm. So, {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again. Yeah, that would work. OK. Um {disfmarker} I was gonna ask you where something is and what we know about that. Grad A: Where {disfmarker} OK. Grad B: Where the" where is" construction is. Grad A: What {disfmarker} what thing is this? Grad E: Where is X? Grad A: OK. Grad E: Oh, but by {disfmarker} Uh, we can ask, uh, did you get to read all four hundred words? Professor C: I did. Grad E: Was it OK? Was it? Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I wa I was looking at it. It doesn't follow logically. It doesn't {disfmarker} The first paragraph doesn't seem to have any link to the second paragraph. Grad A: And so on. Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Hmm. That {disfmarker} Professor C: You know, i Yeah, it {disfmarker} Grad D: Each paragraph is good, though. I li Professor C: I i Yeah. Well, it it's fine. Grad A: It was written by committee. Professor C: Anyway. Um. But c the meeting looks like it's, it's gonna be good. So. I think it's uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I didn't know about it until {pause} Robert told me, like, Professor C: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I ra I ran across it in {disfmarker} I don't even know where, you know {disfmarker} some just {disfmarker} some weird place. And, uh, yeah, I I'm surprised I didn't know about it Grad B: Y yeah. Well, yeah. I was like, why didn't Dan tell me? Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers, an Grad A: Right. Professor C: Right, or some Anyway. So {disfmarker} But anyway, yeah. I so I {disfmarker} I did see that. Oh wha Yeah. Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler, who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the, um, {disfmarker} you know, using these structured belief - nets and stuff but {pause} starting in August, that she's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we'll figure out a way for you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} you to get seriously connected with, um their group. So that's, uh {disfmarker} looks pretty good. And um {disfmarker} Yeah, I'll say it now. So, um {disfmarker} And it looks to me like {comment} we're now at a good point to do something {disfmarker} start working on something really hard. We've been so far working on things that are easy. Grad A: Oh! Professor C: Uh, w Which is {comment} mental spaces and uh {disfmarker} and - or {disfmarker} Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: It's a hard puzzle. But the other part of it is the way they connect to these, uh, probabilistic relational models. So {pause} there's all the problems that the linguists know about, about mental spaces, and the cognitive linguists know about, but then there's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets. Uh, which they call dynamic {disfmarker} they incorrectly call dynamic belief - nets. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: So there's a term" dynamic belief - net" , doesn't mean that. It means time slices. And Srini used those and people use them. Uh. But one of the things I w would like to do over the next, uh, month, it may take more, {comment} is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and uh sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be, but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences. So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models, they're set up, in principle, so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other, and all that sort of stuff, so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate {pause} uh, belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate. But that's g that's, as far as I can tell, it's {disfmarker} it's putting together two real hard problems. One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and {disfmarker} and when you have a certain, uh, construction, that implies certain couplings and other couplings, you know, between let's say between the past and the present, or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it's got um, let's say one in {disfmarker} in, you know, different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs, or any of these other ones of {disfmarker} of multiple models. So um you know, in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both, uh, in a way we that, you know, th hopefully turns out to be consistent, so that the {disfmarker} Um. And sometimes it's actually easier to solve two hard problems than one Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: because they constrain each other. I mean if you've got huge ra huge range of possible choices um {disfmarker} We'll see. But anyway, so that's, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh yeah, like uh, I solved the {disfmarker} the problem of um {disfmarker} we were talking about how do you {disfmarker} various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote" count as a noun phrase" , you know, occur as an argument of a higher construction, but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Um, and it would take a really long time to explain it now, but I'm about to write it up this evening. I solved that at the same time as" how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase" to get something like" I the kicked dog" . Um. Did it {disfmarker} did it at once. Professor C: That's great. Grad A: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe it'll be a similar thing. Grad B: Cool. Professor C: Yeah. No, I know, I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of {disfmarker} of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some, uh, relatively clean rules, they're just not context - free trees. Grad A: Right. Professor C: And if we {disfmarker} if the formalism is {disfmarker} is good, then we should be able to have, you know, sort of moderate scale thing. And that by the way is {disfmarker} is, Keith, what I encouraged George to be talking with you about. Not the formalism yet Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: but the phenomena. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: The p And {disfmarker} Oh, another thing, um there was this, uh thing that Nancy agreed to in a {disfmarker} in a weak moment this morning that Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: I was really strong. Grad A: Hmm! Grad F: Hmm. Professor C: Uh, sorry. In a {disfmarker} in a friendly moment. Grad A: Same thing. Professor C: Anyway, uh, that we were {disfmarker} that we're gonna try to get a uh, first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK? Probably skipping the mental spaces part. Grad B: Seems {disfmarker} Grad A: Right. I do. Professor C: Uh, just trying to write up essentially what {disfmarker} what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at. We've talked about it, but only the innermost inner group currently, uh, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Knows. Professor C: knows, uh Grad A: OK. Grad B: Yeah, and {disfmarker} and not even all of them really do. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: But like {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad A: There's {disfmarker} The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno Professor C: Well that that {disfmarker} yeah th there's one of the advantages of a document, right? , Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is that it actually transfers from head to head. Grad B: Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So anyway. So um {disfmarker} Grad B: Ah, communication! Professor C: Huh? Grad B: Communication. Grad A: Hunh! Professor C: Communication, documentation and stuff. Anyway, so, uh, with a little luck {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} l let's, let's have that as a goal anyway. Grad A: So, uh, what was the date there? Professor C: And {disfmarker} Grad A: Monday or {disfmarker}? It's a Friday. Professor C: No, no, no. No, w uh {disfmarker} we're talking about a week fr e end of next week. Grad A: End of next week. Grad B: But, uh, but {disfmarker} but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th Grad A: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah. Grad B: I mean. Anyway, w let's talk separately about how t Grad A: Yeah, I have a busy weekend but after that {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Yeah, gung - ho. Professor C: OK. Yeah, so {disfmarker} so someti sometime next week. Grad A: Great, Professor C: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that's fine. Grad A: Mm - hmm. OK. Professor C: You know, if you say we're {disfmarker} we're dump {disfmarker} dump {disfmarker} dump. There's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet {disfmarker} that, that's just fine. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But at {disfmarker} at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now. Professor C: Right, t t if {disfmarker} to the extent that we have it, let's write it Grad A: OK. Professor C: and to the extent we don't, let's find out what we need to do. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So, uh Grad E: Can we {disfmarker}? {vocalsound} Is it worth {pause} thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain, that involves a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a decent mental {pause} space shift {pause} or setting up {disfmarker} Professor C: I think it is, but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with" where is the Powder - Tower?" or whatever Grad B: Right. Grad A: Well. Uh, what was supposed to happen? I've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones, so, um, you know, I don't have a write - up of {disfmarker} or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm, yeah. I think {disfmarker} I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative {pause} paths that we {disfmarker} two alternative ways of representing it. One is sort of a {disfmarker} has a um Grad A: It's gone. Grad E: um Grad A: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic. Grad B: One of them was th Right. Grad E: or comes {disfmarker} Grad B: Right. Grad E: is resolved later. Yeah. Grad A: I think it has to be the {disfmarker} the second case. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um, so d'you {disfmarker} Is it clear what we're talking about here? Grad B: I agree. Grad A: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path. Professor C: Uh {disfmarker} Grad B: So you might be {disfmarker} yeah, y And asking for directions. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Um or {disfmarker} or whether the construction semantically, uh, is clearly only asking for location Grad E: Should we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} Grad A: but pragmatically that's construed as meaning" tell me how to get there" . Professor C: Mm - hmm. Yep. Grad E: So {pause} assume these are two, uh, nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Grad E: So these are either true or false and it's also just true {pause} or false. If we encounter a phrase such as" where is X?" , should that set this to true and this to true, and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely? Um, or should it just activate this, have this be false, and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means {disfmarker}? Professor C: Uh w that's a s Grad B: Slightly different. Professor C: OK, so that's a {disfmarker} that's a separate issue. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So I a I I th I agree with you that, um, it's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every uh, pragmatic reading, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: although there are some that will need to be there. Grad B: Good. Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right. Grad B: Right. Professor C: I mean, there there's some that {disfmarker} Grad B: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one. Professor C: You can't do that either. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. But, you know, c um {disfmarker} almost certainly" can you pass the salt" is a construction worth noting that there is this th this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Request. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Grad B: Very yeah. Grad A: So right, this one is maybe in the gray area. Is it {disfmarker} is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one {disfmarker} you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: Ri Yeah. Grad E: One Or in some cases, it's {disfmarker} it's quite definitely Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: s so that you just know {disfmarker} wanna know where it is. Grad A: Yeah. Well the question is basically, is this conventional or conversational implicature? Professor C: Exactly. Yeah. Grad B: Might be, yeah. Professor C: And I guess, see, the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it's more important to know how we would treat {disfmarker} technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B, than it is t to decide A or B r right now. Grad A: OK, right. Grad B: Right. Right. Grad A: Which of that is. {comment} Yeah, OK Grad B: Which one it is. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Cuz there will be other k examples that are one way or the other. Right. Professor C: W we know for sure that we have to be able to do both. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So I guess {vocalsound} In the short run, let's {disfmarker} let's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be. Grad A: OK. Grad E: And then the {vocalsound} we had another idea floating around um, which we wanted to, uh, get your input on, and that concerns the {disfmarker} But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it, and that's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML {pause} who is going to be visiting us, uh, the week before, uh, August and a little bit into August. And she would like to {vocalsound} apply the {pause} ontology that is, um {vocalsound} being crafted at EML. That's not the one I sent you. The one I sent you was from GMD, out of a European CRUMPET. Professor C: It was terrible. Grad E: Agreed. Um, and one of the reas one of the {disfmarker} those ideas was, so, back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history {pause} and it said the word" admission fee" was uh, mentioned um, it's more likely that the person actually wants to enter {pause} than just take a picture of it from the outside. Now what could imagine {disfmarker} to, you know, have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history, yeah? That's the really stupid way. Then there is the {pause} really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the, uh, middle way that I'm suggesting and that is you {disfmarker} you get X, which is whatever, the castle. The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours, that they have admission fees, they have whatever. And then, this is {disfmarker} We go via a thesaurus and look up {pause} certain linguistic surface structures {pause} that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity. We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side. But Keith suggested that a {disfmarker} a much cleaner way would be {disfmarker} is, you know, to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you {disfmarker} if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before, this just a continues to add up, you know, in th in a {disfmarker} Grad A: So if someone mentions admission f fees, that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what's being talked about. And then when someone asks" where is X?" you've already got the {disfmarker} the Enter schema activated Grad B: Kind of a priming Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and you're able to {disfmarker} to conclude on it. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: priming a spreading activation Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Yeah. So that's certainly {pause} more {pause} realistic. Grad A: Right. Professor C: I m I mean psychologically. Now technically Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Um Grad D: Well, uh, is it {disfmarker} doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a {disfmarker} a thread, that you know, kept track of ho of the activity of {disfmarker} I mean, cuz it would {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thread would know what nodes {pause} like, needed to be activated, so it could just keep track of {pause} how long it's been since {pause} something's been mentioned, and {pause} automatically load it in. Professor C: Yeah. You could do that. Um. But here's {disfmarker} here's a way {disfmarker} in th in the bl Bayes - net you could {disfmarker} you could think about it this way, that if um {pause} at the time" admissions fee" was mentioned {pause} you could increase the probability {pause} that someone wanted to enter. Grad B: Turn prior on. Grad D: We - yeah {disfmarker} th th that's what I wa I wasn't {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas. I was just {disfmarker} Professor C: Fair enough, OK, but, but, in terms of the c c the current implementation {disfmarker} right? so that um Grad B: It would already be higher in the {pause} context. Professor C: th that th the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the conditional probability that someone {disfmarker} So at the time you mentioned it {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: It's {disfmarker} In some ways it's not as good but it's {pause} the implementation we got. Grad A: Yeah, sure. No, I mean Professor C: We don't have a connectionist implementation. Now {disfmarker} Now my guess is that it's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another {pause} intervening object has been mentioned. Grad B: Yeah, relevance. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: I mean, we could look at dialo this is {disfmarker} Of course the other thing we ha we do is, is we have this data coming Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: which probably will blow all our theories, Grad A: Yeah, right. Professor C: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but skipping that {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but my guess is what {disfmarker} what'll probably will happen, Here's a {disfmarker} here's a proposed design. {comment} is that there're certain constructions which, uh, for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the, uh, standard way that {disfmarker} that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever, but that's sort of the most recent thing. And so it could be that {pause} when another uh, en tourist entity gets mentioned, you Grad B: Renew Professor C: re re essentially re - initiali you know, re - i essentially re - initialize the {pause} state. Grad D: Mmm. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have {disfmarker} uh, you could keep track of what someone was {pause} uh saying about this and that. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: You know," I wanna go {disfmarker} in the morning Grad A:" Here's my plan for today. Professor C: I wanna {disfmarker}" Grad A: Here's my plan for tomorrow." Professor C: Yeah, or {disfmarker} Yeah, in the morning morning I I'm planning t to go shopping, Grad A: hypothetically. Professor C: in the afternoon to the Powder - Tower {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Uh, tal so I'm talking about shopping and then you say, uh, you know, well, um" What's it cost?" or something. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Or {disfmarker} Anyway. So one could well imagine, but not yet. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But I do th think that the {disfmarker} {comment} It'll turn out that it's gonna be {disfmarker} depend pretty much on whether there's been an override. Grad E: Yeah, I mean, if {disfmarker} if you ask" how much does a train ride and {disfmarker} and cinema around the vineyards cost?" and then somebody tells you it's sixty dollars and then you say" OK How much is, uh {disfmarker} I would like to {pause} visit the {disfmarker}" {vocalsound} whatever, something completely different," then I go to, you know, Point Reyes" , Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: it {disfmarker} it's not more likely that you want to enter anything, but it's, as a matter of fact, a complete rejection of entering by doing that. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Right. Grad B: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something, it's only for that particular {disfmarker} It's relational, right? It's only for that particular object. Professor C: Yeah, I th th Yeah. Well, and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the simple idea is that it's on it's only for m for the current uh, tourist e entity of instre interest. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Grad E: Yeah. But that's {disfmarker} I mean this {disfmarker} this function, so, has the current object been mentioned in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} with a question about {disfmarker} concerning its {disfmarker} Professor C: No, no. It's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} It goes the other d it goes in the other direction. Is {disfmarker} When th When the {disfmarker} this is mentioned, {pause} the uh probability of {disfmarker} of, let's say, entering changes Grad B: Of that object. For {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Professor C: changes. Grad B: Right. Grad D: You could just hav uh, just basically, ob it {disfmarker} It observes an {disfmarker} er, it sets the {disfmarker} a node for" entered" or" true" or something, Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh {disfmarker} But I think Ro - Robert's right, that to determine that, OK? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus Grad D:" discourse enter" . Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} So, if the issue is, if {disfmarker} so now th this construction has been matched and you say" OK. Does this actually have any implications for our decisions?" Then there's another piece of code {vocalsound} that presumably {pause} does that computation. Grad B: So, sort of forward chaining in a way, rather than {pause} backward. Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: OK. Professor C: But {disfmarker} but what's Robert's saying is {disfmarker} is, and I think he's right, {comment} is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all {disfmarker} you know, all the wo Uh maybe. I'll have to think about that. Grad B: Hmm. Professor C: I don't know. I mean it {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} I can thi I can think of arguments in either direction on that. But somehow you want to do it. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Well, it's just another, sort of, construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the {pause} probabilities, and - or {disfmarker} Grad B: Guess it's like {disfmarker} I g The other thing is, whether you have a m m user model that has, you know, whatever, a current plan, whatever, plans that had been discussed, and I don't know, I mean {disfmarker} Grad D: What {disfmarker} uh, what's the argument for putting it in the construction? Is it just that {pause} the s synonym selection is better, or {disfmarker}? Professor C: Oh, wel Well, the ar the {disfmarker} The argument is that you're gonna have the {disfmarker} If you've recognized the word, you've recognized the word, which means you have a lexical construction for it, so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it's a uh, you know, thirty percent increase in probability of entering. You {disfmarker} So you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could invert {disfmarker} invert the whole thing, so you s you tag that information on to {pause} the lexicon Grad D: Mmm. Oh, I see. Professor C: since you had to recognize it anyway. That {disfmarker} that's the argument in the other direction. at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} Yeah, and this is {disfmarker} Grad E: Even though uh the lexical construction itself {disfmarker} out {disfmarker} out of context, uh, won't do it. I mean, y you have to keep track whether the person says Grad B: Yeah. Grad E:" But I but I'm not interested in the opening times" is sort of a more a V type. Professor C: Yeah there's, yeah ther there's that as well. Grad E: Yep. Hmm. So. But, we'll {disfmarker} uh, we have time to {disfmarker} This is a s just a sidetrack, but uh I think it's also something that people have not done before, is um, sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of, uh, inferences, on whether anything relevant to the current something has been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, has crept up in the dialogue history already, or not. And, um I have the, uh {disfmarker} If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom, I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there. Professor C: Good. OK. {comment} {vocalsound} Well, this {disfmarker} this is highly relevant to someone's thesis. Grad E: Yes, um. That's {disfmarker} uh, I'm {disfmarker} I'm keeping on good terms with Jan. Professor C: You've noticed that. OK. Grad E: Yeah. Professor C: So the point is, it's very likely that Robert's thesis is going to be along these lines, Grad B: Oh, s Professor C: and the local rules are if it's your thesis, you get to decide how it's done. OK. So if, you know {disfmarker} if this is {disfmarker} seriously, if this becomes part of your thesis, you can say, hey we're gonna do it this way, that's the way it's done. Grad E: Mmm. Grad B: Yay, it's not me. It's always me when it's someone's thesis. Professor C: No, no, no! No, no. We've got a lot {disfmarker} we've got a lot of theses going. Grad A: There's a few of us around now. Grad B: Now it's not. Yay! I know it is. Professor C: Yeah. Right. Grad E: Well, let's {disfmarker} let's talk after Friday the twenty - ninth. Then we'll see how f f Professor C: Right. So h he's got a th he's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor. Grad B: Yeah, he said he's gonna f finish his thesis by then. Grad A: Oh yeah. Grad E: Yeah. I should try to finish it by then. Yeah. Professor C: Oh, right. Grad E: So. Professor C: Um. Yeah. So I think {pause} in fact, That's the other thing. uh, this is {disfmarker} this is, speaking of hard problems, {comment} this is a very good time um, to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and {disfmarker} you know, where c where the construction per - se ends {pause} and where construal comes in, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, we've {disfmarker} we've done quite a bit of that. Professor C: cuz this is clearly part of th Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: We've been doing quite a bit of that. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Well I said. But that's part of what the f Grad B: We have many jobs for you, Ro - Robert. Professor C: Yeah. Well, he's gonna need this. Grad A: Yeah, it seems to always land in your category. Grad B: The conclusion. Grad A: You're lucky. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. So. {vocalsound} Right. So thing {disfmarker} That's part of why we want the formalism, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is because th it is gonna have implicit in it Grad E: Was I? In the room? Grad B: No, you weren't there {pause} on purpose. Like {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Made it much easier to make these decisions. Grad B: Obviously. Grad A: Uh. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Well I {disfmarker} That's tentative. Grad A: Yeah. Right, right, right. Professor C: They aren't decisions, they're ju they're just proposals. Grad A: Yes. {vocalsound} Excuse me. Grad B: No, they're decisions. OK. Professor C: Yeah, that {disfmarker} That's the point, is {disfmarker} is th Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Constraints. Let's call them constraints, around which one has to {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: Actually, yeah. {vocalsound} There's a problem with that word, too, though. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Anyway. But so that's that's w Yeah. Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis. So consequently don't I get to decide then that it's Robert's job? Professor C: No. Grad A: Anyhow. Professor C: Uh. Grad B: Well, I'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center {pause} and say it's Robert's. Like. Grad E: I've always been {pause} completely in favor of consensus decisions, Grad B: I can {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad E: so we'll {disfmarker} we'll find a way. Professor C: Well, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will, but um Grad B: I haven't. {comment} OK. Professor C: not {disfmarker} Grad E: It {disfmarker} it might even be {pause} interesting then to {pause} say that I should be forced to um, sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the, uh {disfmarker} out of the top hat Professor C: Yes. Grad E: and, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Always good. Professor C: Right. So Grad E: That metaphor is not going anywhere, you know. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Ri - No. Absolutely. So, uh, wh you had {disfmarker} you know you ha You had done one draft. Grad E: Yes, and, um, it's {disfmarker} Ha - None of that is basically still around, Grad B: I didn't get Professor C: And a another draft OK. Grad E: but it's {disfmarker} Professor C: D i Grad A: That's normal. Professor C: I i Grad B: Oh, I guess it's good I didn't read it. Professor C: I {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I'm shocked. This is the first time I've seen a thesis proposal change. Right. Anyway, uh. {vocalsound} So. Grad B: Really? Professor C: But, yeah, a second {disfmarker} that would be great. So, uh, a sec I mean you're gonna need it anyway. Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: and Grad E: Yeah, and I would like to d discuss it and, you know, get you guys's input Professor C: Right. Grad E: and make it sort of bomb - proof. Grad B: Bomb proof! Professor C: Yep. Grad A: Good. Grad E: Bullet - proof. Grad B: Oh! Oh, OK. Grad E: That's the word I was looking for. Professor C: Both proof. Grad A: Either way. Grad B: Both. Professor C: Right. Grad B: Good luck. {vocalsound} Really. Professor C: Uh So that, so th thi this {disfmarker} I mean, so this is the point, is we {disfmarker} we're going to have to cycle through this, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is {disfmarker} is going to tell us a lot about {pause} what {pause} we think needs to be done by construal. And, um, we oughta be doing it. Grad E: OK. Yeah, we need {disfmarker} we need some {disfmarker} Then we need to make some dates. Um. Grad B: Grad E: Meeting {disfmarker} regular meeting time for the summer, we really haven't found one. We did {pause} Thursdays one for a while. I just talked to Ami. It's - it's a coincidence that he can't do {disfmarker} couldn't do it today {pause} here. Grad B: Usually, he can. Grad E: Usually he has no real constraints. Professor C: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday, Grad E: So {disfmarker} Professor C: cuz of {disfmarker} of, uh Grad E: Yeah, it was just an exception. Professor C: Yeah, you weren't here, but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} s uh, {disfmarker} And so, if that's OK with you, Grad A: It's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon? Professor C: you would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. It was th off this week, Grad B: Yeah. I always thought it was staying. Professor C: Yeah, it was th Grad A: yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I thought it was just this week that we were changing it. Professor C: Right. Grad E: Mmm. {pause} Yeah. Professor C: OK. Grad E: And, um. How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we {pause} have things to discuss with other people, there {disfmarker} they seem to be s tons of people around. Professor C: The only disadvantage {pause} is that it may interfere with other Grad E: Or {disfmarker} subgroup meetings Professor C: s you know, other {disfmarker} other {disfmarker} No, you {disfmarker} Uh, people in this group connecting with {disfmarker} with Grad B: Those people who {pause} happen to be around. Professor C: those people {pause} who {disfmarker} who might not be around so much. Uh, I don't care. I I uh you know I have no fixed {disfmarker} Grad A: To tell you the truth, I'd rath I'd, I'd {disfmarker} would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day, if possible. But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean. I don't know. Professor C: OK. Grad A: Whatever. Professor C: No, that's fine. I mean that {disfmarker} Grad E: The {disfmarker} I'd like to have them all in one day, Grad A: Yeah, I can understand that. Professor C: Well p Grad E: so package them up and then {disfmarker} Professor C: people {disfmarker} people differ in their tastes in this matter. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I'm neutral. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. {pause} I'm always here anyway, Grad E: It's OK, that {disfmarker} Grad B: so {disfmarker} It doesn't matter. Professor C: Yeah. @ @ That's {disfmarker} Me too. I'm basically {disfmarker} I'm here. So. Grad E: Well, if {disfmarker} one {pause} sort of thing is, this room is taken at {disfmarker} after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: So we have subjects anyway {disfmarker} Except for this week, we have subjects in here. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: That's why it was one. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So we just knew i Grad B: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o'Grad E: No, he can. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: So let's say Thursday one. But for next week, this is a bit late. So {pause} I would suggest that we need to {disfmarker} to talk {disfmarker} Grad B: Oh, oh, OK. Grad E: OK. About the c the {disfmarker} th Grad B: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty? Would that {disfmarker} that be horrible? Grad E: No. Yes. Grad B: Oh really? Grad E: Because, uh, this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan. Grad B: Oh, OK. OK. You didn't tell me that. OK, that's fine. Grad E: And the {disfmarker} s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings {disfmarker} Grad B: OK, OK, OK. OK. {pause} Yeah. Grad E: So. Grad A: Ah, yeah. Professor C: Interesting. So you're proposing that we meet Tuesday. Grad E: How about that? Grad A: Next week. Grad B: Well, we're meeting Tuesday. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I could Grad B: I mean we usually meet Tuesday {disfmarker} or l like, linguists {pause} um, at two. Grad D: Would it {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. Grad B: So. Do you want to meet again here bef Grad D: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at {disfmarker} on Tuesdays? Grad E: I mean w Well, actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday. Grad B: Hhh. {comment} Maybe I do need a Palm Pilot. Grad E: So there's {disfmarker} Nothing's impeding Monday anymore {pause} either. Grad A: That doesn't apply to a {disfmarker} Grad D: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday {disfmarker} er, take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping. Grad E: Get a fresh start {disfmarker} Yeah, that's another s thing. Yeah. But, um. I mean, there are also usually then holidays anyways. I mean {pause} like {disfmarker} {comment} Sometimes {pause} it works out that way. Grad B: Usually? Grad E: So. Hmm! Grad B: Well, I mean, the linguists'meeting {pause} i happens to be at two, but I think that's {disfmarker} I mean. Grad A: That should be relatively flexible be Grad B: pretty flexible, I think. Grad A: Yeah. There's just {pause} sort of the two to four of us. Grad B: So. The multiple meetings Grad A: Right? Yeah. So. Grad B: yeah. Grad A: And, you know, of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Grad A: So, you know, I mean. Grad E: OK, so {pause} l forget about the b the camping thing. So let's {disfmarker} eh, any other problems w w w? But, I suggested Monday. If that's a problem for me then I shouldn't {pause} suggest it. Grad D: Ha - ha - ha. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So. Grad A: Um, all of the proposed times sound fine with me. Grad B: Same here. Grad E: Monday? Professor C: OK, whate I mean {disfmarker} What I think Robert's saying is that Grad A: Earlier in the week Professor C: earlier we {disfmarker} At least for next week, there's a lot of stuff we want to get done, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: so why don't we plan to meet Monday Grad E: Mmm. Professor C: and {pause} we'll see if we want to meet any more than that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: What time? Grad E: OK. Grad B: At o o o o one, two, three {disfmarker}? Grad E: One, two, three? Three's too late. Professor C: Oh, I i {pause} Yeah, I actually {disfmarker} Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday. Grad E: Two - thirty? OK, two. Professor C: Here I'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday. Grad A: Sure. Sounds great. Uh, so that's the eighteenth. Grad B: You guys will still remind me, right? Grad D: No way! Grad B: Y you'll come and take all the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the headph the good headphones first and then remind me. Grad E: W why do you {disfmarker}? Grad A: Yeah, exactly. Sorry, two PM. Grad E: And Grad B: Why do I have this unless I'm gonna write? Grad E: do I get to see th uh, your formalism before {pause} that? Grad B: Fine. Yes. Uh. Would you like to? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: OK. I was actually gonna work on it for tomorrow {disfmarker} like this {disfmarker} this weekend. Grad E: I wo I would like {disfmarker} I would sort of {pause} get a {disfmarker} get a notion of what {disfmarker} what you guys have in store for me. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Well m @ @ you know, w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put {disfmarker} This is part of what we can do Monday, if we want. Grad B: Yeah. I OK. Grad A: Alright. Grad B: I mean, I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Professor C: Is some {disfmarker} some version Grad E: OK. Grad B: Yeah, so there was like, you know, m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version, like, everything I know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: And then, w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know, that {disfmarker} you know, see if they're consistent. Grad A: Yeah. OK. Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. That's f fine with me. Grad A: OK. Grad B: So. I might {disfmarker} I might {disfmarker} um, Grad E: You - y Grad B: s You said you're busy {pause} over th until the weekend, right? Grad A: Yeah, sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show. Grad B: That's fine. So we might continue our email thing Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and that might be fine, too. So, maybe I'll send you some {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, if you have time after this I'll show you the noun phrase thing. Grad B: OK. That would be cool. So. OK, and we'll {disfmarker} You wanna m Grad E: So the idea is on Monday at two we'll {disfmarker} we'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So that's OK for you {disfmarker} Grad E: and do an on - line merging with my construal {pause} ideas. Grad B: Sure, sure. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK. Grad B: That's OK. Grad E: So it won't be, like, a for semi - formal presentation of my {pause} proposal. It'll be more like towards {pause} finalizing that proposal. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Cuz then you'll find out more of what we're making you do. Grad E: OK, that's fine. Yep, and then {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Hmm, hmm. Grad E: Yikes. Grad A: Oy, {comment} deadlines. Grad B: We'll make a presentation of your propo {comment} of your proposal. Grad E: Perfect. Can you also write it up? Grad B: It's like," this is what we're doing. Professor C: Abso Grad B: And the complement is Robert." Grad E: I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you a style file, right? Grad B: OK. Grad E: You just {disfmarker} Grad B: I already sent you my fi {comment} my bib file. So. Grad E: OK. And, um. Sounds good. Grad A: Someday we also have to {disfmarker} we should probably talk about the other side of the" where is X" construction, which is the issue of, um, how do you simulate questions? What does the simspec look like for a question? Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Because {pause} it's a little different. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah, now, we we w Grad A: We had to {disfmarker} we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work. Professor C: Great. OK. Yeah. Simspec may need {disfmarker} we may n need to re - name that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I {disfmarker} Professor C: OK? So let's think of a name for {disfmarker} for whatever the {disfmarker} this intermediate structure is. Oh, we talked about semspec, for" semantic spec specification" Grad A: Mmm. Professor C: and that seems {disfmarker} Um. Grad A: It's more general Professor C: You know, so it's a m minimal change. Grad B: Only have to change one vowel. That's great. Professor C: Yeah. Just {disfmarker} Grad B: All the old like {vocalsound} graphs, Professor C: Right. Grad B: just change the {disfmarker} just, like, mark out the {disfmarker} Grad A: Cool. Professor C: Right, a little substi substi You know, that's what text substitution uh macros are for. Grad A: Yeah. It's good for you. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Anyway, uh, so let's {disfmarker} let's for the moment call it that until we think of something better. Grad A: OK. Professor C: And, yeah, we absolutely need to find {disfmarker} Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there, incl including the questions {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: We didn't {disfmarker} we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in {disfmarker} in uh, the semspec. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about {pause} that, too, which {disfmarker} uh, uh, it's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues, how they map onto this particular one, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {disfmarker} OK, yeah, understood. Professor C: But that's part of the formalism {disfmarker} is got to be uh, how things like that get marked. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: W do you have data, like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You have preliminary {pause} data? Cuz I know, you know, we've been using this one easy sentence and I'm sure you guys have {disfmarker} uh, maybe you are the one who've been looking at {pause} the rest of it {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, I Grad B: it'd {disfmarker} it'd be useful for me, if we want to {pause} have it a little bit more data oriented. Grad A: To tell you the truth, what I've been looking at has not been the data so far, Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm {pause} mm - hmm. Grad A: I just sort of said" alright let's see if I can get noun phrases and, uh, major verb co uh, constructions out of the way first." And I have not gotten them out of the way yet. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Surprise. So, um. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: So, I have not really approached a lot of the data, but I mean obviously like these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the question one, since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that, you know, I ca can try and, um run with that, you know, try and do some of the sentence constructions now. It would make sense. Grad E: OK. Do you wanna run the indefinite pronoun idea past Jerry? Grad B: OK. Grad A: Oh yeah, the basic idea is that um, uh {pause} you know {disfmarker} Uh, {vocalsound} let's see {pause} if I can {pause} formulate this. Grad E: So {pause} Mary fixed the car with a wrench. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: So you perform the mental sum and then, you know," who fixed the car with a wrench?" You {pause} basically are told, to {disfmarker} to do this In the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} analogously to the way you would do" someone fixed the car with a wrench" . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out {pause} what that, you know, Grad A: Means. Grad E: means, and then {pause} come up with that {disfmarker} so who that someone was. Grad A: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says" and when you're done, tell me who fills that slot" or w you know. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So, um. And, you know, this is sort of a nice way to do it, the idea of sort of saying that you treat {disfmarker} from the simulation point of view or whatever {disfmarker} you treat, uh, WH constructions similarly to uh, indefinite pronouns like" someone fixed the car" because {pause} lots of languages, um, have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever, Grad B: Use actually the same one. Grad A: and you just get intonation to tell you that it's a question. So it makes sense Professor C: Alright, which is Grad A: um Professor C: Skolemization. Grad A: Hmm? Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: In {disfmarker} in logic, it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it's actual Huh? Grad B: Right. {vocalsound} Let's put a Skolem {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Skolem constant in, Grad A: Yeah. shko Professor C: What? Grad A: Sure. Grad B: yeah. Yeah. {pause} Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: That - that's not {disfmarker} that's not saying it's bad, Grad A: Right. Right. No. Of course. Professor C: it's just that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the logicians have {disfmarker} have, uh {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. It makes sense from that point of view, too, which is actually better. Grad E: come up with this Grad A: So yeah, um. Anyway, but just that kind of thing and we'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on, but Professor C: Good. Grad A: Uh, no, all the focus stuff. We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know, like, what we were talking about {comment} exactly, what the object of study was. Grad B: Um - mmm. Grad A: So. Professor C: Yeah. Well, if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I mean, i part of {disfmarker} of what the exercise is, t by the end of next week, is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet. Grad A: Yeah. Yep. Professor C: That's fine. I mean Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you do wanna discuss focus {pause} background and then get me into that because {disfmarker} I mean, I wo I w scientifically worked on that for {disfmarker} for almost two years. Grad A: Yeah. OK, then certainly we will. Good. Grad B: Yeah, you should definitely, um be on on that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe by {disfmarker} after Monday we'll {disfmarker} y you can see what things we are and aren't {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. w We should figure out what our questions are, for example, {vocalsound} to ask you. Grad B: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad B: OK. Grad A: OK. Professor C: Wel - then t Hans. Has {disfmarker} I haven't seen Hans Boas? Grad B: He's been around. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Just maybe not today. Professor C: OK. So has he been {disfmarker} been involved with this, or {disfmarker}? Grad B: Eh. with us? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily, um, Keith and {disfmarker} Keith and me, but um like in th the meeting {disfmarker} I mean, he sort of {disfmarker} I thin like the last meeting we had, I think we were all very much part of it Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {pause} um Grad A: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a {pause} devil's advocate type role or something, Grad B: but different perspec Yeah. Grad A: like {pause}" This make {disfmarker} you know, I'm going to pretend I'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this. This makes no sense." And he'll just go off on parts of it which {pause} definitely need fixing Grad B: Right. Grad A: but aren't where we're at right now, so it's Grad B: Like {disfmarker} like what you call certain things, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: which we decided long ago we don't care that much right now. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But in a sense, it's good to know that he {pause} of all people {disfmarker} Professor C: OK. Grad B: you know, like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions, so, you know, he's like a relatively friendly linguist Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: and yet a word like" constraint" causes a lot of problems. And, so. {pause} Right. So. Professor C: OK. This is consistent with um the role I had suggested that he {disfmarker} he play, Grad B: Ah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: OK, which was {pause} that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called" Towards a formal cognitive semantics" which was addressed to these linguists {pause} uh {pause} who haven't been following {pause} this stuff at all. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So {pause} it could be that he's actually, at some level, thinking about how am I going to {pause} communicate this story {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Professor C: So, internally, we should just do {pause} whatever works, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: cuz it's hard enough. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But {pause} if he g if he turns {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does {pause} connect with as many as possible of the {pause} other linguists in the world um {comment} then {disfmarker} then it becomes important to {pause} use terminology that doesn't make it hard {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Sure. Professor C: I mean, it's gonna be plenty hard for {disfmarker} for people to understand it as it is, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but y y you don't want to make it worse. Grad A: Yeah. No, right. I mean, tha that role is {disfmarker} is, uh, indispensable Professor C: So. Grad A: but that's not where sort of our heads were at in these meetings. Professor C: Right. Grad A: It was a little strange. Professor C: Yeah, yeah. {disfmarker} No, that's fine. I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him, and I wanted t to get a feeling for that. OK. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly, you know. Professor C: OK. Good. Grad A: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view. Grad B: I think it's good when we're {disfmarker} when we're into data and looking at the {disfmarker} some specific linguistic phenomenon {pause} in {disfmarker} in English or in German, in particular, whatever, that's great, Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: and Ben and {disfmarker} and Hans are, if {disfmarker} if anything, more {disfmarker} you know, they have more to say than, let's say, I would about some of these things. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But when it's like, well, w how do we capture these things, you know, I think it's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know, who have worried more about the {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Well, that's good. That's {disfmarker} I I I think that should be the {disfmarker} the core group Grad B: s Which is fine. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Professor C: and {pause} um that's, you know, I think {pause} very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. We actually have {disfmarker} I think we have been making progress, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and its sort of surprising. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I definitely get that impression. Yeah. Grad B: You know, like {disfmarker} Grad A: Yep. Professor C: That's great. Grad B: Yeah. So anyone else would like uh {comment} ruin the balance of {disfmarker} Anyway. Professor C: Well, but {disfmarker} Well. But th th then w then we have to come back to the bigger group. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Great. And then we're gon we're gonna {disfmarker} because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is {pause} actually implementing this stuff? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that. Grad B: Yeah, we could talk tomorrow. I was just gonna say, though, that, for instance, there was {disfmarker} you know, out of a meeting with Johno {pause} came the suggestion that" oh, could it be that the {pause} meaning {pause} constraints really aren't used for selection?" which has sort of been implicit {pause} in the parsing {pause} strategy we talked about. Professor C: Right. Grad B: In which case we w we can just say that they're the effects or the bindings. Which {pause} uh, so far, in terms of like putting up all the constraints as, you know, pushing them into type constraints, the {disfmarker} when I've, you know, propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me {disfmarker} you know, we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work. Right? As long as we allow our type constraints to be reasonably {pause} complex. Professor C: Well, it {disfmarker} Grad B: So {disfmarker} Anyway, to be {disfmarker} to talk about later. Professor C: Yeah, it has to in the sense that you're gonna use them eventu it's {disfmarker} you know, it's sort of a, um, generate and test kind of thing, Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: and if you over - generate then you'll have to do more. I mean, if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use uh, in your initial matching then you'll match some things {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: I mean, I {disfmarker} I d I don't think there's any way that it could completely fail. It {disfmarker} it could be that uh, you wind up {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because {pause} there were just vastly too many parses. You know, exponentially num num many parses. And so th the concern might be that {disfmarker} not that it would totally fail, but that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. That it would still generate too many. {comment} Right? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types, right? Professor C: it would still genera Grad B: Like" conceptually these have to be construed as this, this, and this" might still give us quite a few possibilities Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: that, you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and it certainly helps a lot. Professor C: We don't know, but, yeah. Grad B: I mean, le let's put it that way. So. Professor C: No question. Yeah. And I think it's a {disfmarker} it's a perfectly fine place to start. You know, and say, let let's see how far we can go this way. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: And, uh {disfmarker} Grad D: Well it definitely makes the problem easier. Professor C: I'm {disfmarker} I'm in favor of that. Uh, cuz I think i I think it's {disfmarker} As you know, I think it's real hard and if w if we {disfmarker} Right. Grad B: So {pause} Friday, Monday Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Monday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So. OK, that's {disfmarker} Tuesday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Like {disfmarker} {comment} th that's the conclusion. OK. Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: So, you your dance card is {pause} completely filled now? Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, and I have nothing to do this weekend but work. Grad E: Why don't {disfmarker} Grad B: No, that's not really true, Grad A: Bummer. Grad B: but like {disfmarker} Grad D: What about {disfmarker} What about DDR? Grad B: It's almost true. Grad F: Grad B: Oh, I don't have it this weekend, so, tsk {comment} don't have to worry about that. Grad D: Mmm. Professor C: DDR, he asked? Grad B: Speaking of dance, Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I'm {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker} it's like a game, but it's for, like, dancing. Hard to {disfmarker} It's like karaoke, but for dancing, and they tell you what {disfmarker} It's amazing. It's so much fun. Yeah, it's so good. My friend has a home version and he brought it over, and we are so into it. It's so amazing. Well, y you know of it? I i i it's one of your hobbies? It's great exercise, I must say. I can't wait to hear this. Uh - huh. Oh, definitely. They have, like, places {disfmarker} instead of like {disfmarker} Yeah, instead of karaoke bars now that have, like, DDR, like {disfmarker} Yeah, yeah, I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend, who's like" Oh, well, I can bring over the DDR if you want." Oh, oh, Dance Dance Revolution {disfmarker} OK. He actually brought a clone called Stepping Selection, but it's just as good. So. Anyw

For the SmartKom generation module, all the syntax-to-prosody rules are going to be re-written for English. Additionally, OGI can offer a range of synthesiser voices to choose from.

tr-sq-733

tr-sq-733_0

What were the difficulties that were encountered by the language generation? Grad B: Sorry. Mental {disfmarker} mental Palm Pilot. Right. Hence {pause} no problem. Grad F: Let's see. So. What? I'm supposed to be on channel five? Her. Nope. Doesn't seem to be, Grad B: Hello {pause} I'm channel one. Grad F: yeah. Grad D: Grad E: What does your thing say on the back? Grad D: Testing. Grad F: Nnn, five. Alright, I'm five. Grad D: Sibilance. Sibilance. {comment} {pause} Three, three. I am three. Grad B: Eh. Grad D: See, that matches the seat up there. So. Grad F: Yeah, well, I g guess {pause} it's coming up then, or {disfmarker} Grad D: Cuz it's {disfmarker} That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one. Ergo, the classic off - by - one error. Grad B: But mine is correct. Grad D: Is it? Grad E: No. Grad B: It's one. Channel one. Grad D: Your mike {pause} number {pause} is what we're t Grad E: Look at the back. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh! Oh. Grad D: Ho! Grad B: So {disfmarker} Grad D: I've bested you again, Nancy. Grad B: But your p No, but the paper's correct. Grad D: The paper is correct. Grad B: Look at the paper. Grad D: I didn't det I was saying the microphone, not the paper. Professor C: Nnn, Grad B: Oh. Professor C: it's n Grad B: OK. Professor C: It's always offset. Yeah. Grad B: Yes, you've bested me again. That's how I think of our continuing interaction. Damn! Foiled again! Grad D: So is Keith showing up? He's talking with George right now. Uh, is he gonna get a rip {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} rip himself away from {disfmarker} from that? Grad B: He'll probably come later. Professor C: What {disfmarker} He - he he's probably not, is my guess. Grad D: Oh, then it's just gonna be the five of us? Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: Well, he {disfmarker} he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four. But {pause} you know, that was before he knew about that George lecture probably. Professor C: Right. This {disfmarker} this is not {disfmarker} It's not bad for the project if Keith is talking to George. OK. So my suggestion is we just Grad B: Forge ahead. Professor C: Forge ahead, yeah. Grad E: Cool. Grad B: Are you in charge? Grad E: Sure. Um. Well, I sort of had informal talks with most of you. So, Eva just reported she's really happy about the {pause} CBT's being in the same order in the XML as in the um {disfmarker} be Java declaration format Grad F: Yeah. The e Grad E: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion. Grad F: Uh, yeah. Yeah, so. Grad E: The {disfmarker} uh, Java {disfmarker} the embedded Bayes {pause} wants to take input {disfmarker} uh, uh, a Bayes - net {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that's output by the Java Bayes for the {disfmarker} into the, uh, E Bayes input. Grad D: Mmm. Grad F: Actually, maybe I could try, like, emailing the guy and see if he has any something already. Professor C: Sure. Grad E: Hmm. Grad F: That'd be weird, that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in {disfmarker} Grad D: But that's some sort of conversion program? Grad F: Yeah. Yeah. And put them into different {pause} formats. Oh {disfmarker} Grad D: I think you should demand things from him. Grad F: Yep, he could do that, too. Professor C: He charges so much. Right. Grad D: Yeah. Professor C: No, I think it's a good idea that you may as well ask. Sure. Grad F: Yeah. Grad E: And, um, well {pause} pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list, I would have asked Keith how the" where is X?" {pause} hand parse is standing. Um. {pause} But we'll skip that. Uh, there's good news from Johno. The generation templates are done. Grad D: So the trees {pause} for {disfmarker} the XML trees for the {disfmarker} for the gene for the synthesizer are written. So I just need to {pause} do the, uh {disfmarker} write a new set of {pause} tree combining rules. But I think those'll be pretty similar to the old ones. So. Just gonna be {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} Professor C: Oh! You were gonna send me a note about hiring {disfmarker} Grad E: Yes. Professor C: I didn't finish the sentence but he understood it. Grad D: I know what he's talking about. Professor C: OK. But Nancy doesn't. Grad B: Hiring somebody. Grad E: We {disfmarker} w um {disfmarker} Grad D: The guy. Grad E: OK, so {pause} natural language generation {pause} produces not a {disfmarker} just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but, a {pause} surface string with a syntax tree that's fed into a concept - to - speech. Professor C: No. Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Better. Grad E: Now and this concept - to - speech module has {pause} certain rules on how {pause} if you get the following syntactic structure, how to map this onto prosodic rules. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Sure. Mm - hmm. Grad E: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite uh, the German concept uh syntax - to - prosody rules {disfmarker} Grad B: I didn't know she spoke German. Grad E: No, she doesn't. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: But she speaks English. Grad B: Oh. Rewrite the German ones into English. OK, got it. Grad E: Into English. And um therefore {pause} the, uh {disfmarker} if it's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week, then {pause} she'll do that. Grad B: OK, got it. Grad D: What {pause} language is that {pause} written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me? Grad E: Yeah. That's the LISP - type scheme. Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme? I hope? Grad E: No, I {disfmarker} My guess is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I asked for a commented version of that file? If we get that, then it's {pause} doable, even without getting into it, even though the Scheme li uh, stuff is really well documented in the {pause} Festival. Grad D: Well, I guess if you're not used to functional programming, Scheme can be completely incomprehensible. Cuz, there's no {disfmarker} Like {pause} there's lots of unnamed functions Professor C: Syntax. Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: You know? Professor C: Anyway, it {disfmarker} We'll sort this out. Um. But anyway, send me the note and then I'll - I'll check with, uh, Morgan on the money. I {disfmarker} I don't anticipate any problem but we have to {pause} ask. Oh, so this was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} You know, on the generation thing, um if {comment} sh y she's really going to do that, then we should be able to get prosody as well. So it'll say it's nonsense with perfect intonation. Grad D: Are we gonna {disfmarker} Can we change the voice of the {disfmarker} of the thing, because right now the voice sounds like a murderer. Grad E: Yep. We ha we have to change the voice. Grad B: Wh - Which one? Grad D: The {disfmarker} the little Smarticus {disfmarker} Smarticus sounds like a murderer. Grad B: Oh. Grad A: That's good to know. Grad D:" I have your reservations." Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair. Grad E: It is {disfmarker} Uh, we have the choice between the, uh, usual Festival voices, which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they're really bad. Grad B: Festival? Professor C: It's the name of some program, Grad B: Oh, oh. Got it. OK. Professor C: the {disfmarker} the synthesizer. Grad A: You know, the usual party voices. Grad E: But, um Grad B: Yeah, I know. That doesn't sound, {vocalsound} exactly right either. Grad E: OGI has, uh, crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we're going to use {pause} that. We can still, um, d agree on a gender, if we want. So we still have male or female. Grad B: I think {disfmarker} Well, let's just pick whatever sounds best. Grad E: Hmm? Grad B: Whatever sounds best. Grad E: Uh. Grad B: Unfortunately, probably male voices, a bit more research on. Grad D: Does OGI stand for {disfmarker}? {comment} Original German Institute? Professor C: Orego Grad B: So. Professor C: Or Grad E: Oregon. Grad B: Oregon Graduate Insti Professor C: Oregon @ @ {comment} Graduate Institute Grad D: Oh. Grad E: Try Oregon. Grad D: Ah. Professor C: It turns out there's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group. Grad B: Hmm! Professor C: Very long. Grad D: Hmm! Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: In fact, there's this guy who's basically got a joint appointment, Hynek {pause} Hermansky. He's - spends a fair amount of time here. Anyway. Leave it. Won't be a problem. Grad E: OK. And it's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to, um learn that as of twenty minutes ago, David and I, per accident, uh managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the {disfmarker} uh, ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from {pause} one on my laptop to three. Grad B: Mmm, that's good. Grad D: How was this by accident? Grad B: Yeah, I know. Tha - that's the part I didn't understand. Grad E: Um, I suggested to try something that was really kind of {disfmarker} even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked, but it worked. Grad B: Hmm! Grad E: Intuition. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Will it work again, Grad E: Maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing. Grad B: or {disfmarker}? Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: OK. And, um, we'll never found out why. It - it's just like why {disfmarker} why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working? Grad A: Hmm! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer, right? Grad E: Which Grad A: You know, {comment} and it's cool, it works out that way. Grad E: Hmm. So, {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again. Yeah, that would work. OK. Um {disfmarker} I was gonna ask you where something is and what we know about that. Grad A: Where {disfmarker} OK. Grad B: Where the" where is" construction is. Grad A: What {disfmarker} what thing is this? Grad E: Where is X? Grad A: OK. Grad E: Oh, but by {disfmarker} Uh, we can ask, uh, did you get to read all four hundred words? Professor C: I did. Grad E: Was it OK? Was it? Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I wa I was looking at it. It doesn't follow logically. It doesn't {disfmarker} The first paragraph doesn't seem to have any link to the second paragraph. Grad A: And so on. Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Hmm. That {disfmarker} Professor C: You know, i Yeah, it {disfmarker} Grad D: Each paragraph is good, though. I li Professor C: I i Yeah. Well, it it's fine. Grad A: It was written by committee. Professor C: Anyway. Um. But c the meeting looks like it's, it's gonna be good. So. I think it's uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I didn't know about it until {pause} Robert told me, like, Professor C: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I ra I ran across it in {disfmarker} I don't even know where, you know {disfmarker} some just {disfmarker} some weird place. And, uh, yeah, I I'm surprised I didn't know about it Grad B: Y yeah. Well, yeah. I was like, why didn't Dan tell me? Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers, an Grad A: Right. Professor C: Right, or some Anyway. So {disfmarker} But anyway, yeah. I so I {disfmarker} I did see that. Oh wha Yeah. Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler, who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the, um, {disfmarker} you know, using these structured belief - nets and stuff but {pause} starting in August, that she's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we'll figure out a way for you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} you to get seriously connected with, um their group. So that's, uh {disfmarker} looks pretty good. And um {disfmarker} Yeah, I'll say it now. So, um {disfmarker} And it looks to me like {comment} we're now at a good point to do something {disfmarker} start working on something really hard. We've been so far working on things that are easy. Grad A: Oh! Professor C: Uh, w Which is {comment} mental spaces and uh {disfmarker} and - or {disfmarker} Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: It's a hard puzzle. But the other part of it is the way they connect to these, uh, probabilistic relational models. So {pause} there's all the problems that the linguists know about, about mental spaces, and the cognitive linguists know about, but then there's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets. Uh, which they call dynamic {disfmarker} they incorrectly call dynamic belief - nets. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: So there's a term" dynamic belief - net" , doesn't mean that. It means time slices. And Srini used those and people use them. Uh. But one of the things I w would like to do over the next, uh, month, it may take more, {comment} is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and uh sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be, but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences. So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models, they're set up, in principle, so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other, and all that sort of stuff, so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate {pause} uh, belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate. But that's g that's, as far as I can tell, it's {disfmarker} it's putting together two real hard problems. One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and {disfmarker} and when you have a certain, uh, construction, that implies certain couplings and other couplings, you know, between let's say between the past and the present, or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it's got um, let's say one in {disfmarker} in, you know, different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs, or any of these other ones of {disfmarker} of multiple models. So um you know, in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both, uh, in a way we that, you know, th hopefully turns out to be consistent, so that the {disfmarker} Um. And sometimes it's actually easier to solve two hard problems than one Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: because they constrain each other. I mean if you've got huge ra huge range of possible choices um {disfmarker} We'll see. But anyway, so that's, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh yeah, like uh, I solved the {disfmarker} the problem of um {disfmarker} we were talking about how do you {disfmarker} various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote" count as a noun phrase" , you know, occur as an argument of a higher construction, but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Um, and it would take a really long time to explain it now, but I'm about to write it up this evening. I solved that at the same time as" how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase" to get something like" I the kicked dog" . Um. Did it {disfmarker} did it at once. Professor C: That's great. Grad A: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe it'll be a similar thing. Grad B: Cool. Professor C: Yeah. No, I know, I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of {disfmarker} of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some, uh, relatively clean rules, they're just not context - free trees. Grad A: Right. Professor C: And if we {disfmarker} if the formalism is {disfmarker} is good, then we should be able to have, you know, sort of moderate scale thing. And that by the way is {disfmarker} is, Keith, what I encouraged George to be talking with you about. Not the formalism yet Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: but the phenomena. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: The p And {disfmarker} Oh, another thing, um there was this, uh thing that Nancy agreed to in a {disfmarker} in a weak moment this morning that Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: I was really strong. Grad A: Hmm! Grad F: Hmm. Professor C: Uh, sorry. In a {disfmarker} in a friendly moment. Grad A: Same thing. Professor C: Anyway, uh, that we were {disfmarker} that we're gonna try to get a uh, first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK? Probably skipping the mental spaces part. Grad B: Seems {disfmarker} Grad A: Right. I do. Professor C: Uh, just trying to write up essentially what {disfmarker} what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at. We've talked about it, but only the innermost inner group currently, uh, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Knows. Professor C: knows, uh Grad A: OK. Grad B: Yeah, and {disfmarker} and not even all of them really do. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: But like {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad A: There's {disfmarker} The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno Professor C: Well that that {disfmarker} yeah th there's one of the advantages of a document, right? , Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is that it actually transfers from head to head. Grad B: Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So anyway. So um {disfmarker} Grad B: Ah, communication! Professor C: Huh? Grad B: Communication. Grad A: Hunh! Professor C: Communication, documentation and stuff. Anyway, so, uh, with a little luck {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} l let's, let's have that as a goal anyway. Grad A: So, uh, what was the date there? Professor C: And {disfmarker} Grad A: Monday or {disfmarker}? It's a Friday. Professor C: No, no, no. No, w uh {disfmarker} we're talking about a week fr e end of next week. Grad A: End of next week. Grad B: But, uh, but {disfmarker} but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th Grad A: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah. Grad B: I mean. Anyway, w let's talk separately about how t Grad A: Yeah, I have a busy weekend but after that {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Yeah, gung - ho. Professor C: OK. Yeah, so {disfmarker} so someti sometime next week. Grad A: Great, Professor C: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that's fine. Grad A: Mm - hmm. OK. Professor C: You know, if you say we're {disfmarker} we're dump {disfmarker} dump {disfmarker} dump. There's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet {disfmarker} that, that's just fine. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But at {disfmarker} at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now. Professor C: Right, t t if {disfmarker} to the extent that we have it, let's write it Grad A: OK. Professor C: and to the extent we don't, let's find out what we need to do. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So, uh Grad E: Can we {disfmarker}? {vocalsound} Is it worth {pause} thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain, that involves a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a decent mental {pause} space shift {pause} or setting up {disfmarker} Professor C: I think it is, but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with" where is the Powder - Tower?" or whatever Grad B: Right. Grad A: Well. Uh, what was supposed to happen? I've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones, so, um, you know, I don't have a write - up of {disfmarker} or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm, yeah. I think {disfmarker} I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative {pause} paths that we {disfmarker} two alternative ways of representing it. One is sort of a {disfmarker} has a um Grad A: It's gone. Grad E: um Grad A: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic. Grad B: One of them was th Right. Grad E: or comes {disfmarker} Grad B: Right. Grad E: is resolved later. Yeah. Grad A: I think it has to be the {disfmarker} the second case. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um, so d'you {disfmarker} Is it clear what we're talking about here? Grad B: I agree. Grad A: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path. Professor C: Uh {disfmarker} Grad B: So you might be {disfmarker} yeah, y And asking for directions. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Um or {disfmarker} or whether the construction semantically, uh, is clearly only asking for location Grad E: Should we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} Grad A: but pragmatically that's construed as meaning" tell me how to get there" . Professor C: Mm - hmm. Yep. Grad E: So {pause} assume these are two, uh, nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Grad E: So these are either true or false and it's also just true {pause} or false. If we encounter a phrase such as" where is X?" , should that set this to true and this to true, and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely? Um, or should it just activate this, have this be false, and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means {disfmarker}? Professor C: Uh w that's a s Grad B: Slightly different. Professor C: OK, so that's a {disfmarker} that's a separate issue. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So I a I I th I agree with you that, um, it's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every uh, pragmatic reading, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: although there are some that will need to be there. Grad B: Good. Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right. Grad B: Right. Professor C: I mean, there there's some that {disfmarker} Grad B: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one. Professor C: You can't do that either. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. But, you know, c um {disfmarker} almost certainly" can you pass the salt" is a construction worth noting that there is this th this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Request. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Grad B: Very yeah. Grad A: So right, this one is maybe in the gray area. Is it {disfmarker} is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one {disfmarker} you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: Ri Yeah. Grad E: One Or in some cases, it's {disfmarker} it's quite definitely Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: s so that you just know {disfmarker} wanna know where it is. Grad A: Yeah. Well the question is basically, is this conventional or conversational implicature? Professor C: Exactly. Yeah. Grad B: Might be, yeah. Professor C: And I guess, see, the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it's more important to know how we would treat {disfmarker} technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B, than it is t to decide A or B r right now. Grad A: OK, right. Grad B: Right. Right. Grad A: Which of that is. {comment} Yeah, OK Grad B: Which one it is. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Cuz there will be other k examples that are one way or the other. Right. Professor C: W we know for sure that we have to be able to do both. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So I guess {vocalsound} In the short run, let's {disfmarker} let's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be. Grad A: OK. Grad E: And then the {vocalsound} we had another idea floating around um, which we wanted to, uh, get your input on, and that concerns the {disfmarker} But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it, and that's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML {pause} who is going to be visiting us, uh, the week before, uh, August and a little bit into August. And she would like to {vocalsound} apply the {pause} ontology that is, um {vocalsound} being crafted at EML. That's not the one I sent you. The one I sent you was from GMD, out of a European CRUMPET. Professor C: It was terrible. Grad E: Agreed. Um, and one of the reas one of the {disfmarker} those ideas was, so, back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history {pause} and it said the word" admission fee" was uh, mentioned um, it's more likely that the person actually wants to enter {pause} than just take a picture of it from the outside. Now what could imagine {disfmarker} to, you know, have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history, yeah? That's the really stupid way. Then there is the {pause} really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the, uh, middle way that I'm suggesting and that is you {disfmarker} you get X, which is whatever, the castle. The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours, that they have admission fees, they have whatever. And then, this is {disfmarker} We go via a thesaurus and look up {pause} certain linguistic surface structures {pause} that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity. We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side. But Keith suggested that a {disfmarker} a much cleaner way would be {disfmarker} is, you know, to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you {disfmarker} if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before, this just a continues to add up, you know, in th in a {disfmarker} Grad A: So if someone mentions admission f fees, that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what's being talked about. And then when someone asks" where is X?" you've already got the {disfmarker} the Enter schema activated Grad B: Kind of a priming Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and you're able to {disfmarker} to conclude on it. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: priming a spreading activation Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Yeah. So that's certainly {pause} more {pause} realistic. Grad A: Right. Professor C: I m I mean psychologically. Now technically Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Um Grad D: Well, uh, is it {disfmarker} doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a {disfmarker} a thread, that you know, kept track of ho of the activity of {disfmarker} I mean, cuz it would {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thread would know what nodes {pause} like, needed to be activated, so it could just keep track of {pause} how long it's been since {pause} something's been mentioned, and {pause} automatically load it in. Professor C: Yeah. You could do that. Um. But here's {disfmarker} here's a way {disfmarker} in th in the bl Bayes - net you could {disfmarker} you could think about it this way, that if um {pause} at the time" admissions fee" was mentioned {pause} you could increase the probability {pause} that someone wanted to enter. Grad B: Turn prior on. Grad D: We - yeah {disfmarker} th th that's what I wa I wasn't {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas. I was just {disfmarker} Professor C: Fair enough, OK, but, but, in terms of the c c the current implementation {disfmarker} right? so that um Grad B: It would already be higher in the {pause} context. Professor C: th that th the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the conditional probability that someone {disfmarker} So at the time you mentioned it {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: It's {disfmarker} In some ways it's not as good but it's {pause} the implementation we got. Grad A: Yeah, sure. No, I mean Professor C: We don't have a connectionist implementation. Now {disfmarker} Now my guess is that it's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another {pause} intervening object has been mentioned. Grad B: Yeah, relevance. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: I mean, we could look at dialo this is {disfmarker} Of course the other thing we ha we do is, is we have this data coming Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: which probably will blow all our theories, Grad A: Yeah, right. Professor C: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but skipping that {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but my guess is what {disfmarker} what'll probably will happen, Here's a {disfmarker} here's a proposed design. {comment} is that there're certain constructions which, uh, for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the, uh, standard way that {disfmarker} that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever, but that's sort of the most recent thing. And so it could be that {pause} when another uh, en tourist entity gets mentioned, you Grad B: Renew Professor C: re re essentially re - initiali you know, re - i essentially re - initialize the {pause} state. Grad D: Mmm. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have {disfmarker} uh, you could keep track of what someone was {pause} uh saying about this and that. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: You know," I wanna go {disfmarker} in the morning Grad A:" Here's my plan for today. Professor C: I wanna {disfmarker}" Grad A: Here's my plan for tomorrow." Professor C: Yeah, or {disfmarker} Yeah, in the morning morning I I'm planning t to go shopping, Grad A: hypothetically. Professor C: in the afternoon to the Powder - Tower {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Uh, tal so I'm talking about shopping and then you say, uh, you know, well, um" What's it cost?" or something. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Or {disfmarker} Anyway. So one could well imagine, but not yet. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But I do th think that the {disfmarker} {comment} It'll turn out that it's gonna be {disfmarker} depend pretty much on whether there's been an override. Grad E: Yeah, I mean, if {disfmarker} if you ask" how much does a train ride and {disfmarker} and cinema around the vineyards cost?" and then somebody tells you it's sixty dollars and then you say" OK How much is, uh {disfmarker} I would like to {pause} visit the {disfmarker}" {vocalsound} whatever, something completely different," then I go to, you know, Point Reyes" , Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: it {disfmarker} it's not more likely that you want to enter anything, but it's, as a matter of fact, a complete rejection of entering by doing that. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Right. Grad B: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something, it's only for that particular {disfmarker} It's relational, right? It's only for that particular object. Professor C: Yeah, I th th Yeah. Well, and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the simple idea is that it's on it's only for m for the current uh, tourist e entity of instre interest. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Grad E: Yeah. But that's {disfmarker} I mean this {disfmarker} this function, so, has the current object been mentioned in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} with a question about {disfmarker} concerning its {disfmarker} Professor C: No, no. It's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} It goes the other d it goes in the other direction. Is {disfmarker} When th When the {disfmarker} this is mentioned, {pause} the uh probability of {disfmarker} of, let's say, entering changes Grad B: Of that object. For {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Professor C: changes. Grad B: Right. Grad D: You could just hav uh, just basically, ob it {disfmarker} It observes an {disfmarker} er, it sets the {disfmarker} a node for" entered" or" true" or something, Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh {disfmarker} But I think Ro - Robert's right, that to determine that, OK? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus Grad D:" discourse enter" . Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} So, if the issue is, if {disfmarker} so now th this construction has been matched and you say" OK. Does this actually have any implications for our decisions?" Then there's another piece of code {vocalsound} that presumably {pause} does that computation. Grad B: So, sort of forward chaining in a way, rather than {pause} backward. Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: OK. Professor C: But {disfmarker} but what's Robert's saying is {disfmarker} is, and I think he's right, {comment} is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all {disfmarker} you know, all the wo Uh maybe. I'll have to think about that. Grad B: Hmm. Professor C: I don't know. I mean it {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} I can thi I can think of arguments in either direction on that. But somehow you want to do it. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Well, it's just another, sort of, construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the {pause} probabilities, and - or {disfmarker} Grad B: Guess it's like {disfmarker} I g The other thing is, whether you have a m m user model that has, you know, whatever, a current plan, whatever, plans that had been discussed, and I don't know, I mean {disfmarker} Grad D: What {disfmarker} uh, what's the argument for putting it in the construction? Is it just that {pause} the s synonym selection is better, or {disfmarker}? Professor C: Oh, wel Well, the ar the {disfmarker} The argument is that you're gonna have the {disfmarker} If you've recognized the word, you've recognized the word, which means you have a lexical construction for it, so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it's a uh, you know, thirty percent increase in probability of entering. You {disfmarker} So you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could invert {disfmarker} invert the whole thing, so you s you tag that information on to {pause} the lexicon Grad D: Mmm. Oh, I see. Professor C: since you had to recognize it anyway. That {disfmarker} that's the argument in the other direction. at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} Yeah, and this is {disfmarker} Grad E: Even though uh the lexical construction itself {disfmarker} out {disfmarker} out of context, uh, won't do it. I mean, y you have to keep track whether the person says Grad B: Yeah. Grad E:" But I but I'm not interested in the opening times" is sort of a more a V type. Professor C: Yeah there's, yeah ther there's that as well. Grad E: Yep. Hmm. So. But, we'll {disfmarker} uh, we have time to {disfmarker} This is a s just a sidetrack, but uh I think it's also something that people have not done before, is um, sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of, uh, inferences, on whether anything relevant to the current something has been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, has crept up in the dialogue history already, or not. And, um I have the, uh {disfmarker} If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom, I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there. Professor C: Good. OK. {comment} {vocalsound} Well, this {disfmarker} this is highly relevant to someone's thesis. Grad E: Yes, um. That's {disfmarker} uh, I'm {disfmarker} I'm keeping on good terms with Jan. Professor C: You've noticed that. OK. Grad E: Yeah. Professor C: So the point is, it's very likely that Robert's thesis is going to be along these lines, Grad B: Oh, s Professor C: and the local rules are if it's your thesis, you get to decide how it's done. OK. So if, you know {disfmarker} if this is {disfmarker} seriously, if this becomes part of your thesis, you can say, hey we're gonna do it this way, that's the way it's done. Grad E: Mmm. Grad B: Yay, it's not me. It's always me when it's someone's thesis. Professor C: No, no, no! No, no. We've got a lot {disfmarker} we've got a lot of theses going. Grad A: There's a few of us around now. Grad B: Now it's not. Yay! I know it is. Professor C: Yeah. Right. Grad E: Well, let's {disfmarker} let's talk after Friday the twenty - ninth. Then we'll see how f f Professor C: Right. So h he's got a th he's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor. Grad B: Yeah, he said he's gonna f finish his thesis by then. Grad A: Oh yeah. Grad E: Yeah. I should try to finish it by then. Yeah. Professor C: Oh, right. Grad E: So. Professor C: Um. Yeah. So I think {pause} in fact, That's the other thing. uh, this is {disfmarker} this is, speaking of hard problems, {comment} this is a very good time um, to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and {disfmarker} you know, where c where the construction per - se ends {pause} and where construal comes in, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, we've {disfmarker} we've done quite a bit of that. Professor C: cuz this is clearly part of th Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: We've been doing quite a bit of that. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Well I said. But that's part of what the f Grad B: We have many jobs for you, Ro - Robert. Professor C: Yeah. Well, he's gonna need this. Grad A: Yeah, it seems to always land in your category. Grad B: The conclusion. Grad A: You're lucky. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. So. {vocalsound} Right. So thing {disfmarker} That's part of why we want the formalism, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is because th it is gonna have implicit in it Grad E: Was I? In the room? Grad B: No, you weren't there {pause} on purpose. Like {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Made it much easier to make these decisions. Grad B: Obviously. Grad A: Uh. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Well I {disfmarker} That's tentative. Grad A: Yeah. Right, right, right. Professor C: They aren't decisions, they're ju they're just proposals. Grad A: Yes. {vocalsound} Excuse me. Grad B: No, they're decisions. OK. Professor C: Yeah, that {disfmarker} That's the point, is {disfmarker} is th Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Constraints. Let's call them constraints, around which one has to {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: Actually, yeah. {vocalsound} There's a problem with that word, too, though. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Anyway. But so that's that's w Yeah. Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis. So consequently don't I get to decide then that it's Robert's job? Professor C: No. Grad A: Anyhow. Professor C: Uh. Grad B: Well, I'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center {pause} and say it's Robert's. Like. Grad E: I've always been {pause} completely in favor of consensus decisions, Grad B: I can {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad E: so we'll {disfmarker} we'll find a way. Professor C: Well, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will, but um Grad B: I haven't. {comment} OK. Professor C: not {disfmarker} Grad E: It {disfmarker} it might even be {pause} interesting then to {pause} say that I should be forced to um, sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the, uh {disfmarker} out of the top hat Professor C: Yes. Grad E: and, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Always good. Professor C: Right. So Grad E: That metaphor is not going anywhere, you know. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Ri - No. Absolutely. So, uh, wh you had {disfmarker} you know you ha You had done one draft. Grad E: Yes, and, um, it's {disfmarker} Ha - None of that is basically still around, Grad B: I didn't get Professor C: And a another draft OK. Grad E: but it's {disfmarker} Professor C: D i Grad A: That's normal. Professor C: I i Grad B: Oh, I guess it's good I didn't read it. Professor C: I {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I'm shocked. This is the first time I've seen a thesis proposal change. Right. Anyway, uh. {vocalsound} So. Grad B: Really? Professor C: But, yeah, a second {disfmarker} that would be great. So, uh, a sec I mean you're gonna need it anyway. Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: and Grad E: Yeah, and I would like to d discuss it and, you know, get you guys's input Professor C: Right. Grad E: and make it sort of bomb - proof. Grad B: Bomb proof! Professor C: Yep. Grad A: Good. Grad E: Bullet - proof. Grad B: Oh! Oh, OK. Grad E: That's the word I was looking for. Professor C: Both proof. Grad A: Either way. Grad B: Both. Professor C: Right. Grad B: Good luck. {vocalsound} Really. Professor C: Uh So that, so th thi this {disfmarker} I mean, so this is the point, is we {disfmarker} we're going to have to cycle through this, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is {disfmarker} is going to tell us a lot about {pause} what {pause} we think needs to be done by construal. And, um, we oughta be doing it. Grad E: OK. Yeah, we need {disfmarker} we need some {disfmarker} Then we need to make some dates. Um. Grad B: Grad E: Meeting {disfmarker} regular meeting time for the summer, we really haven't found one. We did {pause} Thursdays one for a while. I just talked to Ami. It's - it's a coincidence that he can't do {disfmarker} couldn't do it today {pause} here. Grad B: Usually, he can. Grad E: Usually he has no real constraints. Professor C: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday, Grad E: So {disfmarker} Professor C: cuz of {disfmarker} of, uh Grad E: Yeah, it was just an exception. Professor C: Yeah, you weren't here, but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} s uh, {disfmarker} And so, if that's OK with you, Grad A: It's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon? Professor C: you would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. It was th off this week, Grad B: Yeah. I always thought it was staying. Professor C: Yeah, it was th Grad A: yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I thought it was just this week that we were changing it. Professor C: Right. Grad E: Mmm. {pause} Yeah. Professor C: OK. Grad E: And, um. How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we {pause} have things to discuss with other people, there {disfmarker} they seem to be s tons of people around. Professor C: The only disadvantage {pause} is that it may interfere with other Grad E: Or {disfmarker} subgroup meetings Professor C: s you know, other {disfmarker} other {disfmarker} No, you {disfmarker} Uh, people in this group connecting with {disfmarker} with Grad B: Those people who {pause} happen to be around. Professor C: those people {pause} who {disfmarker} who might not be around so much. Uh, I don't care. I I uh you know I have no fixed {disfmarker} Grad A: To tell you the truth, I'd rath I'd, I'd {disfmarker} would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day, if possible. But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean. I don't know. Professor C: OK. Grad A: Whatever. Professor C: No, that's fine. I mean that {disfmarker} Grad E: The {disfmarker} I'd like to have them all in one day, Grad A: Yeah, I can understand that. Professor C: Well p Grad E: so package them up and then {disfmarker} Professor C: people {disfmarker} people differ in their tastes in this matter. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I'm neutral. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. {pause} I'm always here anyway, Grad E: It's OK, that {disfmarker} Grad B: so {disfmarker} It doesn't matter. Professor C: Yeah. @ @ That's {disfmarker} Me too. I'm basically {disfmarker} I'm here. So. Grad E: Well, if {disfmarker} one {pause} sort of thing is, this room is taken at {disfmarker} after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: So we have subjects anyway {disfmarker} Except for this week, we have subjects in here. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: That's why it was one. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So we just knew i Grad B: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o'Grad E: No, he can. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: So let's say Thursday one. But for next week, this is a bit late. So {pause} I would suggest that we need to {disfmarker} to talk {disfmarker} Grad B: Oh, oh, OK. Grad E: OK. About the c the {disfmarker} th Grad B: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty? Would that {disfmarker} that be horrible? Grad E: No. Yes. Grad B: Oh really? Grad E: Because, uh, this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan. Grad B: Oh, OK. OK. You didn't tell me that. OK, that's fine. Grad E: And the {disfmarker} s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings {disfmarker} Grad B: OK, OK, OK. OK. {pause} Yeah. Grad E: So. Grad A: Ah, yeah. Professor C: Interesting. So you're proposing that we meet Tuesday. Grad E: How about that? Grad A: Next week. Grad B: Well, we're meeting Tuesday. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I could Grad B: I mean we usually meet Tuesday {disfmarker} or l like, linguists {pause} um, at two. Grad D: Would it {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. Grad B: So. Do you want to meet again here bef Grad D: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at {disfmarker} on Tuesdays? Grad E: I mean w Well, actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday. Grad B: Hhh. {comment} Maybe I do need a Palm Pilot. Grad E: So there's {disfmarker} Nothing's impeding Monday anymore {pause} either. Grad A: That doesn't apply to a {disfmarker} Grad D: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday {disfmarker} er, take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping. Grad E: Get a fresh start {disfmarker} Yeah, that's another s thing. Yeah. But, um. I mean, there are also usually then holidays anyways. I mean {pause} like {disfmarker} {comment} Sometimes {pause} it works out that way. Grad B: Usually? Grad E: So. Hmm! Grad B: Well, I mean, the linguists'meeting {pause} i happens to be at two, but I think that's {disfmarker} I mean. Grad A: That should be relatively flexible be Grad B: pretty flexible, I think. Grad A: Yeah. There's just {pause} sort of the two to four of us. Grad B: So. The multiple meetings Grad A: Right? Yeah. So. Grad B: yeah. Grad A: And, you know, of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Grad A: So, you know, I mean. Grad E: OK, so {pause} l forget about the b the camping thing. So let's {disfmarker} eh, any other problems w w w? But, I suggested Monday. If that's a problem for me then I shouldn't {pause} suggest it. Grad D: Ha - ha - ha. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So. Grad A: Um, all of the proposed times sound fine with me. Grad B: Same here. Grad E: Monday? Professor C: OK, whate I mean {disfmarker} What I think Robert's saying is that Grad A: Earlier in the week Professor C: earlier we {disfmarker} At least for next week, there's a lot of stuff we want to get done, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: so why don't we plan to meet Monday Grad E: Mmm. Professor C: and {pause} we'll see if we want to meet any more than that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: What time? Grad E: OK. Grad B: At o o o o one, two, three {disfmarker}? Grad E: One, two, three? Three's too late. Professor C: Oh, I i {pause} Yeah, I actually {disfmarker} Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday. Grad E: Two - thirty? OK, two. Professor C: Here I'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday. Grad A: Sure. Sounds great. Uh, so that's the eighteenth. Grad B: You guys will still remind me, right? Grad D: No way! Grad B: Y you'll come and take all the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the headph the good headphones first and then remind me. Grad E: W why do you {disfmarker}? Grad A: Yeah, exactly. Sorry, two PM. Grad E: And Grad B: Why do I have this unless I'm gonna write? Grad E: do I get to see th uh, your formalism before {pause} that? Grad B: Fine. Yes. Uh. Would you like to? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: OK. I was actually gonna work on it for tomorrow {disfmarker} like this {disfmarker} this weekend. Grad E: I wo I would like {disfmarker} I would sort of {pause} get a {disfmarker} get a notion of what {disfmarker} what you guys have in store for me. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Well m @ @ you know, w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put {disfmarker} This is part of what we can do Monday, if we want. Grad B: Yeah. I OK. Grad A: Alright. Grad B: I mean, I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Professor C: Is some {disfmarker} some version Grad E: OK. Grad B: Yeah, so there was like, you know, m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version, like, everything I know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: And then, w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know, that {disfmarker} you know, see if they're consistent. Grad A: Yeah. OK. Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. That's f fine with me. Grad A: OK. Grad B: So. I might {disfmarker} I might {disfmarker} um, Grad E: You - y Grad B: s You said you're busy {pause} over th until the weekend, right? Grad A: Yeah, sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show. Grad B: That's fine. So we might continue our email thing Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and that might be fine, too. So, maybe I'll send you some {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, if you have time after this I'll show you the noun phrase thing. Grad B: OK. That would be cool. So. OK, and we'll {disfmarker} You wanna m Grad E: So the idea is on Monday at two we'll {disfmarker} we'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So that's OK for you {disfmarker} Grad E: and do an on - line merging with my construal {pause} ideas. Grad B: Sure, sure. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK. Grad B: That's OK. Grad E: So it won't be, like, a for semi - formal presentation of my {pause} proposal. It'll be more like towards {pause} finalizing that proposal. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Cuz then you'll find out more of what we're making you do. Grad E: OK, that's fine. Yep, and then {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Hmm, hmm. Grad E: Yikes. Grad A: Oy, {comment} deadlines. Grad B: We'll make a presentation of your propo {comment} of your proposal. Grad E: Perfect. Can you also write it up? Grad B: It's like," this is what we're doing. Professor C: Abso Grad B: And the complement is Robert." Grad E: I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you a style file, right? Grad B: OK. Grad E: You just {disfmarker} Grad B: I already sent you my fi {comment} my bib file. So. Grad E: OK. And, um. Sounds good. Grad A: Someday we also have to {disfmarker} we should probably talk about the other side of the" where is X" construction, which is the issue of, um, how do you simulate questions? What does the simspec look like for a question? Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Because {pause} it's a little different. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah, now, we we w Grad A: We had to {disfmarker} we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work. Professor C: Great. OK. Yeah. Simspec may need {disfmarker} we may n need to re - name that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I {disfmarker} Professor C: OK? So let's think of a name for {disfmarker} for whatever the {disfmarker} this intermediate structure is. Oh, we talked about semspec, for" semantic spec specification" Grad A: Mmm. Professor C: and that seems {disfmarker} Um. Grad A: It's more general Professor C: You know, so it's a m minimal change. Grad B: Only have to change one vowel. That's great. Professor C: Yeah. Just {disfmarker} Grad B: All the old like {vocalsound} graphs, Professor C: Right. Grad B: just change the {disfmarker} just, like, mark out the {disfmarker} Grad A: Cool. Professor C: Right, a little substi substi You know, that's what text substitution uh macros are for. Grad A: Yeah. It's good for you. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Anyway, uh, so let's {disfmarker} let's for the moment call it that until we think of something better. Grad A: OK. Professor C: And, yeah, we absolutely need to find {disfmarker} Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there, incl including the questions {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: We didn't {disfmarker} we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in {disfmarker} in uh, the semspec. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about {pause} that, too, which {disfmarker} uh, uh, it's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues, how they map onto this particular one, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {disfmarker} OK, yeah, understood. Professor C: But that's part of the formalism {disfmarker} is got to be uh, how things like that get marked. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: W do you have data, like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You have preliminary {pause} data? Cuz I know, you know, we've been using this one easy sentence and I'm sure you guys have {disfmarker} uh, maybe you are the one who've been looking at {pause} the rest of it {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, I Grad B: it'd {disfmarker} it'd be useful for me, if we want to {pause} have it a little bit more data oriented. Grad A: To tell you the truth, what I've been looking at has not been the data so far, Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm {pause} mm - hmm. Grad A: I just sort of said" alright let's see if I can get noun phrases and, uh, major verb co uh, constructions out of the way first." And I have not gotten them out of the way yet. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Surprise. So, um. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: So, I have not really approached a lot of the data, but I mean obviously like these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the question one, since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that, you know, I ca can try and, um run with that, you know, try and do some of the sentence constructions now. It would make sense. Grad E: OK. Do you wanna run the indefinite pronoun idea past Jerry? Grad B: OK. Grad A: Oh yeah, the basic idea is that um, uh {pause} you know {disfmarker} Uh, {vocalsound} let's see {pause} if I can {pause} formulate this. Grad E: So {pause} Mary fixed the car with a wrench. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: So you perform the mental sum and then, you know," who fixed the car with a wrench?" You {pause} basically are told, to {disfmarker} to do this In the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} analogously to the way you would do" someone fixed the car with a wrench" . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out {pause} what that, you know, Grad A: Means. Grad E: means, and then {pause} come up with that {disfmarker} so who that someone was. Grad A: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says" and when you're done, tell me who fills that slot" or w you know. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So, um. And, you know, this is sort of a nice way to do it, the idea of sort of saying that you treat {disfmarker} from the simulation point of view or whatever {disfmarker} you treat, uh, WH constructions similarly to uh, indefinite pronouns like" someone fixed the car" because {pause} lots of languages, um, have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever, Grad B: Use actually the same one. Grad A: and you just get intonation to tell you that it's a question. So it makes sense Professor C: Alright, which is Grad A: um Professor C: Skolemization. Grad A: Hmm? Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: In {disfmarker} in logic, it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it's actual Huh? Grad B: Right. {vocalsound} Let's put a Skolem {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Skolem constant in, Grad A: Yeah. shko Professor C: What? Grad A: Sure. Grad B: yeah. Yeah. {pause} Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: That - that's not {disfmarker} that's not saying it's bad, Grad A: Right. Right. No. Of course. Professor C: it's just that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the logicians have {disfmarker} have, uh {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. It makes sense from that point of view, too, which is actually better. Grad E: come up with this Grad A: So yeah, um. Anyway, but just that kind of thing and we'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on, but Professor C: Good. Grad A: Uh, no, all the focus stuff. We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know, like, what we were talking about {comment} exactly, what the object of study was. Grad B: Um - mmm. Grad A: So. Professor C: Yeah. Well, if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I mean, i part of {disfmarker} of what the exercise is, t by the end of next week, is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet. Grad A: Yeah. Yep. Professor C: That's fine. I mean Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you do wanna discuss focus {pause} background and then get me into that because {disfmarker} I mean, I wo I w scientifically worked on that for {disfmarker} for almost two years. Grad A: Yeah. OK, then certainly we will. Good. Grad B: Yeah, you should definitely, um be on on that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe by {disfmarker} after Monday we'll {disfmarker} y you can see what things we are and aren't {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. w We should figure out what our questions are, for example, {vocalsound} to ask you. Grad B: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad B: OK. Grad A: OK. Professor C: Wel - then t Hans. Has {disfmarker} I haven't seen Hans Boas? Grad B: He's been around. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Just maybe not today. Professor C: OK. So has he been {disfmarker} been involved with this, or {disfmarker}? Grad B: Eh. with us? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily, um, Keith and {disfmarker} Keith and me, but um like in th the meeting {disfmarker} I mean, he sort of {disfmarker} I thin like the last meeting we had, I think we were all very much part of it Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {pause} um Grad A: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a {pause} devil's advocate type role or something, Grad B: but different perspec Yeah. Grad A: like {pause}" This make {disfmarker} you know, I'm going to pretend I'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this. This makes no sense." And he'll just go off on parts of it which {pause} definitely need fixing Grad B: Right. Grad A: but aren't where we're at right now, so it's Grad B: Like {disfmarker} like what you call certain things, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: which we decided long ago we don't care that much right now. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But in a sense, it's good to know that he {pause} of all people {disfmarker} Professor C: OK. Grad B: you know, like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions, so, you know, he's like a relatively friendly linguist Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: and yet a word like" constraint" causes a lot of problems. And, so. {pause} Right. So. Professor C: OK. This is consistent with um the role I had suggested that he {disfmarker} he play, Grad B: Ah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: OK, which was {pause} that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called" Towards a formal cognitive semantics" which was addressed to these linguists {pause} uh {pause} who haven't been following {pause} this stuff at all. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So {pause} it could be that he's actually, at some level, thinking about how am I going to {pause} communicate this story {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Professor C: So, internally, we should just do {pause} whatever works, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: cuz it's hard enough. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But {pause} if he g if he turns {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does {pause} connect with as many as possible of the {pause} other linguists in the world um {comment} then {disfmarker} then it becomes important to {pause} use terminology that doesn't make it hard {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Sure. Professor C: I mean, it's gonna be plenty hard for {disfmarker} for people to understand it as it is, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but y y you don't want to make it worse. Grad A: Yeah. No, right. I mean, tha that role is {disfmarker} is, uh, indispensable Professor C: So. Grad A: but that's not where sort of our heads were at in these meetings. Professor C: Right. Grad A: It was a little strange. Professor C: Yeah, yeah. {disfmarker} No, that's fine. I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him, and I wanted t to get a feeling for that. OK. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly, you know. Professor C: OK. Good. Grad A: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view. Grad B: I think it's good when we're {disfmarker} when we're into data and looking at the {disfmarker} some specific linguistic phenomenon {pause} in {disfmarker} in English or in German, in particular, whatever, that's great, Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: and Ben and {disfmarker} and Hans are, if {disfmarker} if anything, more {disfmarker} you know, they have more to say than, let's say, I would about some of these things. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But when it's like, well, w how do we capture these things, you know, I think it's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know, who have worried more about the {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Well, that's good. That's {disfmarker} I I I think that should be the {disfmarker} the core group Grad B: s Which is fine. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Professor C: and {pause} um that's, you know, I think {pause} very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. We actually have {disfmarker} I think we have been making progress, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and its sort of surprising. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I definitely get that impression. Yeah. Grad B: You know, like {disfmarker} Grad A: Yep. Professor C: That's great. Grad B: Yeah. So anyone else would like uh {comment} ruin the balance of {disfmarker} Anyway. Professor C: Well, but {disfmarker} Well. But th th then w then we have to come back to the bigger group. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Great. And then we're gon we're gonna {disfmarker} because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is {pause} actually implementing this stuff? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that. Grad B: Yeah, we could talk tomorrow. I was just gonna say, though, that, for instance, there was {disfmarker} you know, out of a meeting with Johno {pause} came the suggestion that" oh, could it be that the {pause} meaning {pause} constraints really aren't used for selection?" which has sort of been implicit {pause} in the parsing {pause} strategy we talked about. Professor C: Right. Grad B: In which case we w we can just say that they're the effects or the bindings. Which {pause} uh, so far, in terms of like putting up all the constraints as, you know, pushing them into type constraints, the {disfmarker} when I've, you know, propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me {disfmarker} you know, we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work. Right? As long as we allow our type constraints to be reasonably {pause} complex. Professor C: Well, it {disfmarker} Grad B: So {disfmarker} Anyway, to be {disfmarker} to talk about later. Professor C: Yeah, it has to in the sense that you're gonna use them eventu it's {disfmarker} you know, it's sort of a, um, generate and test kind of thing, Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: and if you over - generate then you'll have to do more. I mean, if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use uh, in your initial matching then you'll match some things {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: I mean, I {disfmarker} I d I don't think there's any way that it could completely fail. It {disfmarker} it could be that uh, you wind up {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because {pause} there were just vastly too many parses. You know, exponentially num num many parses. And so th the concern might be that {disfmarker} not that it would totally fail, but that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. That it would still generate too many. {comment} Right? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types, right? Professor C: it would still genera Grad B: Like" conceptually these have to be construed as this, this, and this" might still give us quite a few possibilities Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: that, you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and it certainly helps a lot. Professor C: We don't know, but, yeah. Grad B: I mean, le let's put it that way. So. Professor C: No question. Yeah. And I think it's a {disfmarker} it's a perfectly fine place to start. You know, and say, let let's see how far we can go this way. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: And, uh {disfmarker} Grad D: Well it definitely makes the problem easier. Professor C: I'm {disfmarker} I'm in favor of that. Uh, cuz I think i I think it's {disfmarker} As you know, I think it's real hard and if w if we {disfmarker} Right. Grad B: So {pause} Friday, Monday Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Monday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So. OK, that's {disfmarker} Tuesday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Like {disfmarker} {comment} th that's the conclusion. OK. Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: So, you your dance card is {pause} completely filled now? Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, and I have nothing to do this weekend but work. Grad E: Why don't {disfmarker} Grad B: No, that's not really true, Grad A: Bummer. Grad B: but like {disfmarker} Grad D: What about {disfmarker} What about DDR? Grad B: It's almost true. Grad F: Grad B: Oh, I don't have it this weekend, so, tsk {comment} don't have to worry about that. Grad D: Mmm. Professor C: DDR, he asked? Grad B: Speaking of dance, Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I'm {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker} it's like a game, but it's for, like, dancing. Hard to {disfmarker} It's like karaoke, but for dancing, and they tell you what {disfmarker} It's amazing. It's so much fun. Yeah, it's so good. My friend has a home version and he brought it over, and we are so into it. It's so amazing. Well, y you know of it? I i i it's one of your hobbies? It's great exercise, I must say. I can't wait to hear this. Uh - huh. Oh, definitely. They have, like, places {disfmarker} instead of like {disfmarker} Yeah, instead of karaoke bars now that have, like, DDR, like {disfmarker} Yeah, yeah, I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend, who's like" Oh, well, I can bring over the DDR if you want." Oh, oh, Dance Dance Revolution {disfmarker} OK. He actually brought a clone called Stepping Selection, but it's just as good. So. Anyw

As the translation of the german SmartKom into English moves on, the generation rules may prove difficult to tackle for someone without experience in functional programming, as they are written in LISP.

tr-sq-734

tr-sq-734_0

What were the problems associated with mental spaces? Grad B: Sorry. Mental {disfmarker} mental Palm Pilot. Right. Hence {pause} no problem. Grad F: Let's see. So. What? I'm supposed to be on channel five? Her. Nope. Doesn't seem to be, Grad B: Hello {pause} I'm channel one. Grad F: yeah. Grad D: Grad E: What does your thing say on the back? Grad D: Testing. Grad F: Nnn, five. Alright, I'm five. Grad D: Sibilance. Sibilance. {comment} {pause} Three, three. I am three. Grad B: Eh. Grad D: See, that matches the seat up there. So. Grad F: Yeah, well, I g guess {pause} it's coming up then, or {disfmarker} Grad D: Cuz it's {disfmarker} That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one. Ergo, the classic off - by - one error. Grad B: But mine is correct. Grad D: Is it? Grad E: No. Grad B: It's one. Channel one. Grad D: Your mike {pause} number {pause} is what we're t Grad E: Look at the back. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh! Oh. Grad D: Ho! Grad B: So {disfmarker} Grad D: I've bested you again, Nancy. Grad B: But your p No, but the paper's correct. Grad D: The paper is correct. Grad B: Look at the paper. Grad D: I didn't det I was saying the microphone, not the paper. Professor C: Nnn, Grad B: Oh. Professor C: it's n Grad B: OK. Professor C: It's always offset. Yeah. Grad B: Yes, you've bested me again. That's how I think of our continuing interaction. Damn! Foiled again! Grad D: So is Keith showing up? He's talking with George right now. Uh, is he gonna get a rip {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} rip himself away from {disfmarker} from that? Grad B: He'll probably come later. Professor C: What {disfmarker} He - he he's probably not, is my guess. Grad D: Oh, then it's just gonna be the five of us? Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: Well, he {disfmarker} he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four. But {pause} you know, that was before he knew about that George lecture probably. Professor C: Right. This {disfmarker} this is not {disfmarker} It's not bad for the project if Keith is talking to George. OK. So my suggestion is we just Grad B: Forge ahead. Professor C: Forge ahead, yeah. Grad E: Cool. Grad B: Are you in charge? Grad E: Sure. Um. Well, I sort of had informal talks with most of you. So, Eva just reported she's really happy about the {pause} CBT's being in the same order in the XML as in the um {disfmarker} be Java declaration format Grad F: Yeah. The e Grad E: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion. Grad F: Uh, yeah. Yeah, so. Grad E: The {disfmarker} uh, Java {disfmarker} the embedded Bayes {pause} wants to take input {disfmarker} uh, uh, a Bayes - net {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that's output by the Java Bayes for the {disfmarker} into the, uh, E Bayes input. Grad D: Mmm. Grad F: Actually, maybe I could try, like, emailing the guy and see if he has any something already. Professor C: Sure. Grad E: Hmm. Grad F: That'd be weird, that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in {disfmarker} Grad D: But that's some sort of conversion program? Grad F: Yeah. Yeah. And put them into different {pause} formats. Oh {disfmarker} Grad D: I think you should demand things from him. Grad F: Yep, he could do that, too. Professor C: He charges so much. Right. Grad D: Yeah. Professor C: No, I think it's a good idea that you may as well ask. Sure. Grad F: Yeah. Grad E: And, um, well {pause} pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list, I would have asked Keith how the" where is X?" {pause} hand parse is standing. Um. {pause} But we'll skip that. Uh, there's good news from Johno. The generation templates are done. Grad D: So the trees {pause} for {disfmarker} the XML trees for the {disfmarker} for the gene for the synthesizer are written. So I just need to {pause} do the, uh {disfmarker} write a new set of {pause} tree combining rules. But I think those'll be pretty similar to the old ones. So. Just gonna be {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} Professor C: Oh! You were gonna send me a note about hiring {disfmarker} Grad E: Yes. Professor C: I didn't finish the sentence but he understood it. Grad D: I know what he's talking about. Professor C: OK. But Nancy doesn't. Grad B: Hiring somebody. Grad E: We {disfmarker} w um {disfmarker} Grad D: The guy. Grad E: OK, so {pause} natural language generation {pause} produces not a {disfmarker} just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but, a {pause} surface string with a syntax tree that's fed into a concept - to - speech. Professor C: No. Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Better. Grad E: Now and this concept - to - speech module has {pause} certain rules on how {pause} if you get the following syntactic structure, how to map this onto prosodic rules. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Sure. Mm - hmm. Grad E: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite uh, the German concept uh syntax - to - prosody rules {disfmarker} Grad B: I didn't know she spoke German. Grad E: No, she doesn't. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: But she speaks English. Grad B: Oh. Rewrite the German ones into English. OK, got it. Grad E: Into English. And um therefore {pause} the, uh {disfmarker} if it's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week, then {pause} she'll do that. Grad B: OK, got it. Grad D: What {pause} language is that {pause} written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me? Grad E: Yeah. That's the LISP - type scheme. Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme? I hope? Grad E: No, I {disfmarker} My guess is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I asked for a commented version of that file? If we get that, then it's {pause} doable, even without getting into it, even though the Scheme li uh, stuff is really well documented in the {pause} Festival. Grad D: Well, I guess if you're not used to functional programming, Scheme can be completely incomprehensible. Cuz, there's no {disfmarker} Like {pause} there's lots of unnamed functions Professor C: Syntax. Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: You know? Professor C: Anyway, it {disfmarker} We'll sort this out. Um. But anyway, send me the note and then I'll - I'll check with, uh, Morgan on the money. I {disfmarker} I don't anticipate any problem but we have to {pause} ask. Oh, so this was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} You know, on the generation thing, um if {comment} sh y she's really going to do that, then we should be able to get prosody as well. So it'll say it's nonsense with perfect intonation. Grad D: Are we gonna {disfmarker} Can we change the voice of the {disfmarker} of the thing, because right now the voice sounds like a murderer. Grad E: Yep. We ha we have to change the voice. Grad B: Wh - Which one? Grad D: The {disfmarker} the little Smarticus {disfmarker} Smarticus sounds like a murderer. Grad B: Oh. Grad A: That's good to know. Grad D:" I have your reservations." Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair. Grad E: It is {disfmarker} Uh, we have the choice between the, uh, usual Festival voices, which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they're really bad. Grad B: Festival? Professor C: It's the name of some program, Grad B: Oh, oh. Got it. OK. Professor C: the {disfmarker} the synthesizer. Grad A: You know, the usual party voices. Grad E: But, um Grad B: Yeah, I know. That doesn't sound, {vocalsound} exactly right either. Grad E: OGI has, uh, crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we're going to use {pause} that. We can still, um, d agree on a gender, if we want. So we still have male or female. Grad B: I think {disfmarker} Well, let's just pick whatever sounds best. Grad E: Hmm? Grad B: Whatever sounds best. Grad E: Uh. Grad B: Unfortunately, probably male voices, a bit more research on. Grad D: Does OGI stand for {disfmarker}? {comment} Original German Institute? Professor C: Orego Grad B: So. Professor C: Or Grad E: Oregon. Grad B: Oregon Graduate Insti Professor C: Oregon @ @ {comment} Graduate Institute Grad D: Oh. Grad E: Try Oregon. Grad D: Ah. Professor C: It turns out there's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group. Grad B: Hmm! Professor C: Very long. Grad D: Hmm! Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: In fact, there's this guy who's basically got a joint appointment, Hynek {pause} Hermansky. He's - spends a fair amount of time here. Anyway. Leave it. Won't be a problem. Grad E: OK. And it's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to, um learn that as of twenty minutes ago, David and I, per accident, uh managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the {disfmarker} uh, ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from {pause} one on my laptop to three. Grad B: Mmm, that's good. Grad D: How was this by accident? Grad B: Yeah, I know. Tha - that's the part I didn't understand. Grad E: Um, I suggested to try something that was really kind of {disfmarker} even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked, but it worked. Grad B: Hmm! Grad E: Intuition. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Will it work again, Grad E: Maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing. Grad B: or {disfmarker}? Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: OK. And, um, we'll never found out why. It - it's just like why {disfmarker} why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working? Grad A: Hmm! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer, right? Grad E: Which Grad A: You know, {comment} and it's cool, it works out that way. Grad E: Hmm. So, {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again. Yeah, that would work. OK. Um {disfmarker} I was gonna ask you where something is and what we know about that. Grad A: Where {disfmarker} OK. Grad B: Where the" where is" construction is. Grad A: What {disfmarker} what thing is this? Grad E: Where is X? Grad A: OK. Grad E: Oh, but by {disfmarker} Uh, we can ask, uh, did you get to read all four hundred words? Professor C: I did. Grad E: Was it OK? Was it? Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I wa I was looking at it. It doesn't follow logically. It doesn't {disfmarker} The first paragraph doesn't seem to have any link to the second paragraph. Grad A: And so on. Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Hmm. That {disfmarker} Professor C: You know, i Yeah, it {disfmarker} Grad D: Each paragraph is good, though. I li Professor C: I i Yeah. Well, it it's fine. Grad A: It was written by committee. Professor C: Anyway. Um. But c the meeting looks like it's, it's gonna be good. So. I think it's uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I didn't know about it until {pause} Robert told me, like, Professor C: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I ra I ran across it in {disfmarker} I don't even know where, you know {disfmarker} some just {disfmarker} some weird place. And, uh, yeah, I I'm surprised I didn't know about it Grad B: Y yeah. Well, yeah. I was like, why didn't Dan tell me? Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers, an Grad A: Right. Professor C: Right, or some Anyway. So {disfmarker} But anyway, yeah. I so I {disfmarker} I did see that. Oh wha Yeah. Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler, who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the, um, {disfmarker} you know, using these structured belief - nets and stuff but {pause} starting in August, that she's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we'll figure out a way for you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} you to get seriously connected with, um their group. So that's, uh {disfmarker} looks pretty good. And um {disfmarker} Yeah, I'll say it now. So, um {disfmarker} And it looks to me like {comment} we're now at a good point to do something {disfmarker} start working on something really hard. We've been so far working on things that are easy. Grad A: Oh! Professor C: Uh, w Which is {comment} mental spaces and uh {disfmarker} and - or {disfmarker} Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: It's a hard puzzle. But the other part of it is the way they connect to these, uh, probabilistic relational models. So {pause} there's all the problems that the linguists know about, about mental spaces, and the cognitive linguists know about, but then there's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets. Uh, which they call dynamic {disfmarker} they incorrectly call dynamic belief - nets. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: So there's a term" dynamic belief - net" , doesn't mean that. It means time slices. And Srini used those and people use them. Uh. But one of the things I w would like to do over the next, uh, month, it may take more, {comment} is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and uh sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be, but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences. So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models, they're set up, in principle, so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other, and all that sort of stuff, so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate {pause} uh, belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate. But that's g that's, as far as I can tell, it's {disfmarker} it's putting together two real hard problems. One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and {disfmarker} and when you have a certain, uh, construction, that implies certain couplings and other couplings, you know, between let's say between the past and the present, or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it's got um, let's say one in {disfmarker} in, you know, different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs, or any of these other ones of {disfmarker} of multiple models. So um you know, in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both, uh, in a way we that, you know, th hopefully turns out to be consistent, so that the {disfmarker} Um. And sometimes it's actually easier to solve two hard problems than one Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: because they constrain each other. I mean if you've got huge ra huge range of possible choices um {disfmarker} We'll see. But anyway, so that's, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh yeah, like uh, I solved the {disfmarker} the problem of um {disfmarker} we were talking about how do you {disfmarker} various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote" count as a noun phrase" , you know, occur as an argument of a higher construction, but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Um, and it would take a really long time to explain it now, but I'm about to write it up this evening. I solved that at the same time as" how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase" to get something like" I the kicked dog" . Um. Did it {disfmarker} did it at once. Professor C: That's great. Grad A: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe it'll be a similar thing. Grad B: Cool. Professor C: Yeah. No, I know, I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of {disfmarker} of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some, uh, relatively clean rules, they're just not context - free trees. Grad A: Right. Professor C: And if we {disfmarker} if the formalism is {disfmarker} is good, then we should be able to have, you know, sort of moderate scale thing. And that by the way is {disfmarker} is, Keith, what I encouraged George to be talking with you about. Not the formalism yet Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: but the phenomena. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: The p And {disfmarker} Oh, another thing, um there was this, uh thing that Nancy agreed to in a {disfmarker} in a weak moment this morning that Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: I was really strong. Grad A: Hmm! Grad F: Hmm. Professor C: Uh, sorry. In a {disfmarker} in a friendly moment. Grad A: Same thing. Professor C: Anyway, uh, that we were {disfmarker} that we're gonna try to get a uh, first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK? Probably skipping the mental spaces part. Grad B: Seems {disfmarker} Grad A: Right. I do. Professor C: Uh, just trying to write up essentially what {disfmarker} what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at. We've talked about it, but only the innermost inner group currently, uh, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Knows. Professor C: knows, uh Grad A: OK. Grad B: Yeah, and {disfmarker} and not even all of them really do. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: But like {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad A: There's {disfmarker} The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno Professor C: Well that that {disfmarker} yeah th there's one of the advantages of a document, right? , Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is that it actually transfers from head to head. Grad B: Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So anyway. So um {disfmarker} Grad B: Ah, communication! Professor C: Huh? Grad B: Communication. Grad A: Hunh! Professor C: Communication, documentation and stuff. Anyway, so, uh, with a little luck {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} l let's, let's have that as a goal anyway. Grad A: So, uh, what was the date there? Professor C: And {disfmarker} Grad A: Monday or {disfmarker}? It's a Friday. Professor C: No, no, no. No, w uh {disfmarker} we're talking about a week fr e end of next week. Grad A: End of next week. Grad B: But, uh, but {disfmarker} but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th Grad A: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah. Grad B: I mean. Anyway, w let's talk separately about how t Grad A: Yeah, I have a busy weekend but after that {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Yeah, gung - ho. Professor C: OK. Yeah, so {disfmarker} so someti sometime next week. Grad A: Great, Professor C: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that's fine. Grad A: Mm - hmm. OK. Professor C: You know, if you say we're {disfmarker} we're dump {disfmarker} dump {disfmarker} dump. There's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet {disfmarker} that, that's just fine. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But at {disfmarker} at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now. Professor C: Right, t t if {disfmarker} to the extent that we have it, let's write it Grad A: OK. Professor C: and to the extent we don't, let's find out what we need to do. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So, uh Grad E: Can we {disfmarker}? {vocalsound} Is it worth {pause} thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain, that involves a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a decent mental {pause} space shift {pause} or setting up {disfmarker} Professor C: I think it is, but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with" where is the Powder - Tower?" or whatever Grad B: Right. Grad A: Well. Uh, what was supposed to happen? I've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones, so, um, you know, I don't have a write - up of {disfmarker} or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm, yeah. I think {disfmarker} I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative {pause} paths that we {disfmarker} two alternative ways of representing it. One is sort of a {disfmarker} has a um Grad A: It's gone. Grad E: um Grad A: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic. Grad B: One of them was th Right. Grad E: or comes {disfmarker} Grad B: Right. Grad E: is resolved later. Yeah. Grad A: I think it has to be the {disfmarker} the second case. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um, so d'you {disfmarker} Is it clear what we're talking about here? Grad B: I agree. Grad A: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path. Professor C: Uh {disfmarker} Grad B: So you might be {disfmarker} yeah, y And asking for directions. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Um or {disfmarker} or whether the construction semantically, uh, is clearly only asking for location Grad E: Should we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} Grad A: but pragmatically that's construed as meaning" tell me how to get there" . Professor C: Mm - hmm. Yep. Grad E: So {pause} assume these are two, uh, nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Grad E: So these are either true or false and it's also just true {pause} or false. If we encounter a phrase such as" where is X?" , should that set this to true and this to true, and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely? Um, or should it just activate this, have this be false, and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means {disfmarker}? Professor C: Uh w that's a s Grad B: Slightly different. Professor C: OK, so that's a {disfmarker} that's a separate issue. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So I a I I th I agree with you that, um, it's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every uh, pragmatic reading, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: although there are some that will need to be there. Grad B: Good. Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right. Grad B: Right. Professor C: I mean, there there's some that {disfmarker} Grad B: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one. Professor C: You can't do that either. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. But, you know, c um {disfmarker} almost certainly" can you pass the salt" is a construction worth noting that there is this th this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Request. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Grad B: Very yeah. Grad A: So right, this one is maybe in the gray area. Is it {disfmarker} is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one {disfmarker} you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: Ri Yeah. Grad E: One Or in some cases, it's {disfmarker} it's quite definitely Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: s so that you just know {disfmarker} wanna know where it is. Grad A: Yeah. Well the question is basically, is this conventional or conversational implicature? Professor C: Exactly. Yeah. Grad B: Might be, yeah. Professor C: And I guess, see, the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it's more important to know how we would treat {disfmarker} technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B, than it is t to decide A or B r right now. Grad A: OK, right. Grad B: Right. Right. Grad A: Which of that is. {comment} Yeah, OK Grad B: Which one it is. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Cuz there will be other k examples that are one way or the other. Right. Professor C: W we know for sure that we have to be able to do both. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So I guess {vocalsound} In the short run, let's {disfmarker} let's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be. Grad A: OK. Grad E: And then the {vocalsound} we had another idea floating around um, which we wanted to, uh, get your input on, and that concerns the {disfmarker} But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it, and that's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML {pause} who is going to be visiting us, uh, the week before, uh, August and a little bit into August. And she would like to {vocalsound} apply the {pause} ontology that is, um {vocalsound} being crafted at EML. That's not the one I sent you. The one I sent you was from GMD, out of a European CRUMPET. Professor C: It was terrible. Grad E: Agreed. Um, and one of the reas one of the {disfmarker} those ideas was, so, back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history {pause} and it said the word" admission fee" was uh, mentioned um, it's more likely that the person actually wants to enter {pause} than just take a picture of it from the outside. Now what could imagine {disfmarker} to, you know, have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history, yeah? That's the really stupid way. Then there is the {pause} really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the, uh, middle way that I'm suggesting and that is you {disfmarker} you get X, which is whatever, the castle. The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours, that they have admission fees, they have whatever. And then, this is {disfmarker} We go via a thesaurus and look up {pause} certain linguistic surface structures {pause} that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity. We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side. But Keith suggested that a {disfmarker} a much cleaner way would be {disfmarker} is, you know, to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you {disfmarker} if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before, this just a continues to add up, you know, in th in a {disfmarker} Grad A: So if someone mentions admission f fees, that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what's being talked about. And then when someone asks" where is X?" you've already got the {disfmarker} the Enter schema activated Grad B: Kind of a priming Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and you're able to {disfmarker} to conclude on it. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: priming a spreading activation Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Yeah. So that's certainly {pause} more {pause} realistic. Grad A: Right. Professor C: I m I mean psychologically. Now technically Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Um Grad D: Well, uh, is it {disfmarker} doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a {disfmarker} a thread, that you know, kept track of ho of the activity of {disfmarker} I mean, cuz it would {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thread would know what nodes {pause} like, needed to be activated, so it could just keep track of {pause} how long it's been since {pause} something's been mentioned, and {pause} automatically load it in. Professor C: Yeah. You could do that. Um. But here's {disfmarker} here's a way {disfmarker} in th in the bl Bayes - net you could {disfmarker} you could think about it this way, that if um {pause} at the time" admissions fee" was mentioned {pause} you could increase the probability {pause} that someone wanted to enter. Grad B: Turn prior on. Grad D: We - yeah {disfmarker} th th that's what I wa I wasn't {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas. I was just {disfmarker} Professor C: Fair enough, OK, but, but, in terms of the c c the current implementation {disfmarker} right? so that um Grad B: It would already be higher in the {pause} context. Professor C: th that th the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the conditional probability that someone {disfmarker} So at the time you mentioned it {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: It's {disfmarker} In some ways it's not as good but it's {pause} the implementation we got. Grad A: Yeah, sure. No, I mean Professor C: We don't have a connectionist implementation. Now {disfmarker} Now my guess is that it's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another {pause} intervening object has been mentioned. Grad B: Yeah, relevance. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: I mean, we could look at dialo this is {disfmarker} Of course the other thing we ha we do is, is we have this data coming Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: which probably will blow all our theories, Grad A: Yeah, right. Professor C: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but skipping that {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but my guess is what {disfmarker} what'll probably will happen, Here's a {disfmarker} here's a proposed design. {comment} is that there're certain constructions which, uh, for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the, uh, standard way that {disfmarker} that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever, but that's sort of the most recent thing. And so it could be that {pause} when another uh, en tourist entity gets mentioned, you Grad B: Renew Professor C: re re essentially re - initiali you know, re - i essentially re - initialize the {pause} state. Grad D: Mmm. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have {disfmarker} uh, you could keep track of what someone was {pause} uh saying about this and that. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: You know," I wanna go {disfmarker} in the morning Grad A:" Here's my plan for today. Professor C: I wanna {disfmarker}" Grad A: Here's my plan for tomorrow." Professor C: Yeah, or {disfmarker} Yeah, in the morning morning I I'm planning t to go shopping, Grad A: hypothetically. Professor C: in the afternoon to the Powder - Tower {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Uh, tal so I'm talking about shopping and then you say, uh, you know, well, um" What's it cost?" or something. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Or {disfmarker} Anyway. So one could well imagine, but not yet. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But I do th think that the {disfmarker} {comment} It'll turn out that it's gonna be {disfmarker} depend pretty much on whether there's been an override. Grad E: Yeah, I mean, if {disfmarker} if you ask" how much does a train ride and {disfmarker} and cinema around the vineyards cost?" and then somebody tells you it's sixty dollars and then you say" OK How much is, uh {disfmarker} I would like to {pause} visit the {disfmarker}" {vocalsound} whatever, something completely different," then I go to, you know, Point Reyes" , Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: it {disfmarker} it's not more likely that you want to enter anything, but it's, as a matter of fact, a complete rejection of entering by doing that. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Right. Grad B: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something, it's only for that particular {disfmarker} It's relational, right? It's only for that particular object. Professor C: Yeah, I th th Yeah. Well, and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the simple idea is that it's on it's only for m for the current uh, tourist e entity of instre interest. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Grad E: Yeah. But that's {disfmarker} I mean this {disfmarker} this function, so, has the current object been mentioned in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} with a question about {disfmarker} concerning its {disfmarker} Professor C: No, no. It's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} It goes the other d it goes in the other direction. Is {disfmarker} When th When the {disfmarker} this is mentioned, {pause} the uh probability of {disfmarker} of, let's say, entering changes Grad B: Of that object. For {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Professor C: changes. Grad B: Right. Grad D: You could just hav uh, just basically, ob it {disfmarker} It observes an {disfmarker} er, it sets the {disfmarker} a node for" entered" or" true" or something, Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh {disfmarker} But I think Ro - Robert's right, that to determine that, OK? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus Grad D:" discourse enter" . Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} So, if the issue is, if {disfmarker} so now th this construction has been matched and you say" OK. Does this actually have any implications for our decisions?" Then there's another piece of code {vocalsound} that presumably {pause} does that computation. Grad B: So, sort of forward chaining in a way, rather than {pause} backward. Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: OK. Professor C: But {disfmarker} but what's Robert's saying is {disfmarker} is, and I think he's right, {comment} is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all {disfmarker} you know, all the wo Uh maybe. I'll have to think about that. Grad B: Hmm. Professor C: I don't know. I mean it {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} I can thi I can think of arguments in either direction on that. But somehow you want to do it. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Well, it's just another, sort of, construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the {pause} probabilities, and - or {disfmarker} Grad B: Guess it's like {disfmarker} I g The other thing is, whether you have a m m user model that has, you know, whatever, a current plan, whatever, plans that had been discussed, and I don't know, I mean {disfmarker} Grad D: What {disfmarker} uh, what's the argument for putting it in the construction? Is it just that {pause} the s synonym selection is better, or {disfmarker}? Professor C: Oh, wel Well, the ar the {disfmarker} The argument is that you're gonna have the {disfmarker} If you've recognized the word, you've recognized the word, which means you have a lexical construction for it, so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it's a uh, you know, thirty percent increase in probability of entering. You {disfmarker} So you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could invert {disfmarker} invert the whole thing, so you s you tag that information on to {pause} the lexicon Grad D: Mmm. Oh, I see. Professor C: since you had to recognize it anyway. That {disfmarker} that's the argument in the other direction. at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} Yeah, and this is {disfmarker} Grad E: Even though uh the lexical construction itself {disfmarker} out {disfmarker} out of context, uh, won't do it. I mean, y you have to keep track whether the person says Grad B: Yeah. Grad E:" But I but I'm not interested in the opening times" is sort of a more a V type. Professor C: Yeah there's, yeah ther there's that as well. Grad E: Yep. Hmm. So. But, we'll {disfmarker} uh, we have time to {disfmarker} This is a s just a sidetrack, but uh I think it's also something that people have not done before, is um, sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of, uh, inferences, on whether anything relevant to the current something has been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, has crept up in the dialogue history already, or not. And, um I have the, uh {disfmarker} If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom, I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there. Professor C: Good. OK. {comment} {vocalsound} Well, this {disfmarker} this is highly relevant to someone's thesis. Grad E: Yes, um. That's {disfmarker} uh, I'm {disfmarker} I'm keeping on good terms with Jan. Professor C: You've noticed that. OK. Grad E: Yeah. Professor C: So the point is, it's very likely that Robert's thesis is going to be along these lines, Grad B: Oh, s Professor C: and the local rules are if it's your thesis, you get to decide how it's done. OK. So if, you know {disfmarker} if this is {disfmarker} seriously, if this becomes part of your thesis, you can say, hey we're gonna do it this way, that's the way it's done. Grad E: Mmm. Grad B: Yay, it's not me. It's always me when it's someone's thesis. Professor C: No, no, no! No, no. We've got a lot {disfmarker} we've got a lot of theses going. Grad A: There's a few of us around now. Grad B: Now it's not. Yay! I know it is. Professor C: Yeah. Right. Grad E: Well, let's {disfmarker} let's talk after Friday the twenty - ninth. Then we'll see how f f Professor C: Right. So h he's got a th he's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor. Grad B: Yeah, he said he's gonna f finish his thesis by then. Grad A: Oh yeah. Grad E: Yeah. I should try to finish it by then. Yeah. Professor C: Oh, right. Grad E: So. Professor C: Um. Yeah. So I think {pause} in fact, That's the other thing. uh, this is {disfmarker} this is, speaking of hard problems, {comment} this is a very good time um, to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and {disfmarker} you know, where c where the construction per - se ends {pause} and where construal comes in, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, we've {disfmarker} we've done quite a bit of that. Professor C: cuz this is clearly part of th Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: We've been doing quite a bit of that. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Well I said. But that's part of what the f Grad B: We have many jobs for you, Ro - Robert. Professor C: Yeah. Well, he's gonna need this. Grad A: Yeah, it seems to always land in your category. Grad B: The conclusion. Grad A: You're lucky. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. So. {vocalsound} Right. So thing {disfmarker} That's part of why we want the formalism, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is because th it is gonna have implicit in it Grad E: Was I? In the room? Grad B: No, you weren't there {pause} on purpose. Like {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Made it much easier to make these decisions. Grad B: Obviously. Grad A: Uh. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Well I {disfmarker} That's tentative. Grad A: Yeah. Right, right, right. Professor C: They aren't decisions, they're ju they're just proposals. Grad A: Yes. {vocalsound} Excuse me. Grad B: No, they're decisions. OK. Professor C: Yeah, that {disfmarker} That's the point, is {disfmarker} is th Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Constraints. Let's call them constraints, around which one has to {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: Actually, yeah. {vocalsound} There's a problem with that word, too, though. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Anyway. But so that's that's w Yeah. Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis. So consequently don't I get to decide then that it's Robert's job? Professor C: No. Grad A: Anyhow. Professor C: Uh. Grad B: Well, I'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center {pause} and say it's Robert's. Like. Grad E: I've always been {pause} completely in favor of consensus decisions, Grad B: I can {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad E: so we'll {disfmarker} we'll find a way. Professor C: Well, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will, but um Grad B: I haven't. {comment} OK. Professor C: not {disfmarker} Grad E: It {disfmarker} it might even be {pause} interesting then to {pause} say that I should be forced to um, sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the, uh {disfmarker} out of the top hat Professor C: Yes. Grad E: and, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Always good. Professor C: Right. So Grad E: That metaphor is not going anywhere, you know. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Ri - No. Absolutely. So, uh, wh you had {disfmarker} you know you ha You had done one draft. Grad E: Yes, and, um, it's {disfmarker} Ha - None of that is basically still around, Grad B: I didn't get Professor C: And a another draft OK. Grad E: but it's {disfmarker} Professor C: D i Grad A: That's normal. Professor C: I i Grad B: Oh, I guess it's good I didn't read it. Professor C: I {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I'm shocked. This is the first time I've seen a thesis proposal change. Right. Anyway, uh. {vocalsound} So. Grad B: Really? Professor C: But, yeah, a second {disfmarker} that would be great. So, uh, a sec I mean you're gonna need it anyway. Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: and Grad E: Yeah, and I would like to d discuss it and, you know, get you guys's input Professor C: Right. Grad E: and make it sort of bomb - proof. Grad B: Bomb proof! Professor C: Yep. Grad A: Good. Grad E: Bullet - proof. Grad B: Oh! Oh, OK. Grad E: That's the word I was looking for. Professor C: Both proof. Grad A: Either way. Grad B: Both. Professor C: Right. Grad B: Good luck. {vocalsound} Really. Professor C: Uh So that, so th thi this {disfmarker} I mean, so this is the point, is we {disfmarker} we're going to have to cycle through this, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is {disfmarker} is going to tell us a lot about {pause} what {pause} we think needs to be done by construal. And, um, we oughta be doing it. Grad E: OK. Yeah, we need {disfmarker} we need some {disfmarker} Then we need to make some dates. Um. Grad B: Grad E: Meeting {disfmarker} regular meeting time for the summer, we really haven't found one. We did {pause} Thursdays one for a while. I just talked to Ami. It's - it's a coincidence that he can't do {disfmarker} couldn't do it today {pause} here. Grad B: Usually, he can. Grad E: Usually he has no real constraints. Professor C: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday, Grad E: So {disfmarker} Professor C: cuz of {disfmarker} of, uh Grad E: Yeah, it was just an exception. Professor C: Yeah, you weren't here, but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} s uh, {disfmarker} And so, if that's OK with you, Grad A: It's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon? Professor C: you would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. It was th off this week, Grad B: Yeah. I always thought it was staying. Professor C: Yeah, it was th Grad A: yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I thought it was just this week that we were changing it. Professor C: Right. Grad E: Mmm. {pause} Yeah. Professor C: OK. Grad E: And, um. How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we {pause} have things to discuss with other people, there {disfmarker} they seem to be s tons of people around. Professor C: The only disadvantage {pause} is that it may interfere with other Grad E: Or {disfmarker} subgroup meetings Professor C: s you know, other {disfmarker} other {disfmarker} No, you {disfmarker} Uh, people in this group connecting with {disfmarker} with Grad B: Those people who {pause} happen to be around. Professor C: those people {pause} who {disfmarker} who might not be around so much. Uh, I don't care. I I uh you know I have no fixed {disfmarker} Grad A: To tell you the truth, I'd rath I'd, I'd {disfmarker} would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day, if possible. But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean. I don't know. Professor C: OK. Grad A: Whatever. Professor C: No, that's fine. I mean that {disfmarker} Grad E: The {disfmarker} I'd like to have them all in one day, Grad A: Yeah, I can understand that. Professor C: Well p Grad E: so package them up and then {disfmarker} Professor C: people {disfmarker} people differ in their tastes in this matter. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I'm neutral. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. {pause} I'm always here anyway, Grad E: It's OK, that {disfmarker} Grad B: so {disfmarker} It doesn't matter. Professor C: Yeah. @ @ That's {disfmarker} Me too. I'm basically {disfmarker} I'm here. So. Grad E: Well, if {disfmarker} one {pause} sort of thing is, this room is taken at {disfmarker} after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: So we have subjects anyway {disfmarker} Except for this week, we have subjects in here. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: That's why it was one. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So we just knew i Grad B: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o'Grad E: No, he can. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: So let's say Thursday one. But for next week, this is a bit late. So {pause} I would suggest that we need to {disfmarker} to talk {disfmarker} Grad B: Oh, oh, OK. Grad E: OK. About the c the {disfmarker} th Grad B: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty? Would that {disfmarker} that be horrible? Grad E: No. Yes. Grad B: Oh really? Grad E: Because, uh, this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan. Grad B: Oh, OK. OK. You didn't tell me that. OK, that's fine. Grad E: And the {disfmarker} s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings {disfmarker} Grad B: OK, OK, OK. OK. {pause} Yeah. Grad E: So. Grad A: Ah, yeah. Professor C: Interesting. So you're proposing that we meet Tuesday. Grad E: How about that? Grad A: Next week. Grad B: Well, we're meeting Tuesday. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I could Grad B: I mean we usually meet Tuesday {disfmarker} or l like, linguists {pause} um, at two. Grad D: Would it {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. Grad B: So. Do you want to meet again here bef Grad D: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at {disfmarker} on Tuesdays? Grad E: I mean w Well, actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday. Grad B: Hhh. {comment} Maybe I do need a Palm Pilot. Grad E: So there's {disfmarker} Nothing's impeding Monday anymore {pause} either. Grad A: That doesn't apply to a {disfmarker} Grad D: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday {disfmarker} er, take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping. Grad E: Get a fresh start {disfmarker} Yeah, that's another s thing. Yeah. But, um. I mean, there are also usually then holidays anyways. I mean {pause} like {disfmarker} {comment} Sometimes {pause} it works out that way. Grad B: Usually? Grad E: So. Hmm! Grad B: Well, I mean, the linguists'meeting {pause} i happens to be at two, but I think that's {disfmarker} I mean. Grad A: That should be relatively flexible be Grad B: pretty flexible, I think. Grad A: Yeah. There's just {pause} sort of the two to four of us. Grad B: So. The multiple meetings Grad A: Right? Yeah. So. Grad B: yeah. Grad A: And, you know, of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Grad A: So, you know, I mean. Grad E: OK, so {pause} l forget about the b the camping thing. So let's {disfmarker} eh, any other problems w w w? But, I suggested Monday. If that's a problem for me then I shouldn't {pause} suggest it. Grad D: Ha - ha - ha. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So. Grad A: Um, all of the proposed times sound fine with me. Grad B: Same here. Grad E: Monday? Professor C: OK, whate I mean {disfmarker} What I think Robert's saying is that Grad A: Earlier in the week Professor C: earlier we {disfmarker} At least for next week, there's a lot of stuff we want to get done, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: so why don't we plan to meet Monday Grad E: Mmm. Professor C: and {pause} we'll see if we want to meet any more than that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: What time? Grad E: OK. Grad B: At o o o o one, two, three {disfmarker}? Grad E: One, two, three? Three's too late. Professor C: Oh, I i {pause} Yeah, I actually {disfmarker} Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday. Grad E: Two - thirty? OK, two. Professor C: Here I'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday. Grad A: Sure. Sounds great. Uh, so that's the eighteenth. Grad B: You guys will still remind me, right? Grad D: No way! Grad B: Y you'll come and take all the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the headph the good headphones first and then remind me. Grad E: W why do you {disfmarker}? Grad A: Yeah, exactly. Sorry, two PM. Grad E: And Grad B: Why do I have this unless I'm gonna write? Grad E: do I get to see th uh, your formalism before {pause} that? Grad B: Fine. Yes. Uh. Would you like to? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: OK. I was actually gonna work on it for tomorrow {disfmarker} like this {disfmarker} this weekend. Grad E: I wo I would like {disfmarker} I would sort of {pause} get a {disfmarker} get a notion of what {disfmarker} what you guys have in store for me. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Well m @ @ you know, w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put {disfmarker} This is part of what we can do Monday, if we want. Grad B: Yeah. I OK. Grad A: Alright. Grad B: I mean, I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Professor C: Is some {disfmarker} some version Grad E: OK. Grad B: Yeah, so there was like, you know, m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version, like, everything I know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: And then, w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know, that {disfmarker} you know, see if they're consistent. Grad A: Yeah. OK. Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. That's f fine with me. Grad A: OK. Grad B: So. I might {disfmarker} I might {disfmarker} um, Grad E: You - y Grad B: s You said you're busy {pause} over th until the weekend, right? Grad A: Yeah, sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show. Grad B: That's fine. So we might continue our email thing Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and that might be fine, too. So, maybe I'll send you some {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, if you have time after this I'll show you the noun phrase thing. Grad B: OK. That would be cool. So. OK, and we'll {disfmarker} You wanna m Grad E: So the idea is on Monday at two we'll {disfmarker} we'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So that's OK for you {disfmarker} Grad E: and do an on - line merging with my construal {pause} ideas. Grad B: Sure, sure. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK. Grad B: That's OK. Grad E: So it won't be, like, a for semi - formal presentation of my {pause} proposal. It'll be more like towards {pause} finalizing that proposal. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Cuz then you'll find out more of what we're making you do. Grad E: OK, that's fine. Yep, and then {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Hmm, hmm. Grad E: Yikes. Grad A: Oy, {comment} deadlines. Grad B: We'll make a presentation of your propo {comment} of your proposal. Grad E: Perfect. Can you also write it up? Grad B: It's like," this is what we're doing. Professor C: Abso Grad B: And the complement is Robert." Grad E: I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you a style file, right? Grad B: OK. Grad E: You just {disfmarker} Grad B: I already sent you my fi {comment} my bib file. So. Grad E: OK. And, um. Sounds good. Grad A: Someday we also have to {disfmarker} we should probably talk about the other side of the" where is X" construction, which is the issue of, um, how do you simulate questions? What does the simspec look like for a question? Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Because {pause} it's a little different. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah, now, we we w Grad A: We had to {disfmarker} we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work. Professor C: Great. OK. Yeah. Simspec may need {disfmarker} we may n need to re - name that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I {disfmarker} Professor C: OK? So let's think of a name for {disfmarker} for whatever the {disfmarker} this intermediate structure is. Oh, we talked about semspec, for" semantic spec specification" Grad A: Mmm. Professor C: and that seems {disfmarker} Um. Grad A: It's more general Professor C: You know, so it's a m minimal change. Grad B: Only have to change one vowel. That's great. Professor C: Yeah. Just {disfmarker} Grad B: All the old like {vocalsound} graphs, Professor C: Right. Grad B: just change the {disfmarker} just, like, mark out the {disfmarker} Grad A: Cool. Professor C: Right, a little substi substi You know, that's what text substitution uh macros are for. Grad A: Yeah. It's good for you. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Anyway, uh, so let's {disfmarker} let's for the moment call it that until we think of something better. Grad A: OK. Professor C: And, yeah, we absolutely need to find {disfmarker} Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there, incl including the questions {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: We didn't {disfmarker} we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in {disfmarker} in uh, the semspec. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about {pause} that, too, which {disfmarker} uh, uh, it's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues, how they map onto this particular one, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {disfmarker} OK, yeah, understood. Professor C: But that's part of the formalism {disfmarker} is got to be uh, how things like that get marked. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: W do you have data, like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You have preliminary {pause} data? Cuz I know, you know, we've been using this one easy sentence and I'm sure you guys have {disfmarker} uh, maybe you are the one who've been looking at {pause} the rest of it {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, I Grad B: it'd {disfmarker} it'd be useful for me, if we want to {pause} have it a little bit more data oriented. Grad A: To tell you the truth, what I've been looking at has not been the data so far, Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm {pause} mm - hmm. Grad A: I just sort of said" alright let's see if I can get noun phrases and, uh, major verb co uh, constructions out of the way first." And I have not gotten them out of the way yet. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Surprise. So, um. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: So, I have not really approached a lot of the data, but I mean obviously like these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the question one, since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that, you know, I ca can try and, um run with that, you know, try and do some of the sentence constructions now. It would make sense. Grad E: OK. Do you wanna run the indefinite pronoun idea past Jerry? Grad B: OK. Grad A: Oh yeah, the basic idea is that um, uh {pause} you know {disfmarker} Uh, {vocalsound} let's see {pause} if I can {pause} formulate this. Grad E: So {pause} Mary fixed the car with a wrench. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: So you perform the mental sum and then, you know," who fixed the car with a wrench?" You {pause} basically are told, to {disfmarker} to do this In the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} analogously to the way you would do" someone fixed the car with a wrench" . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out {pause} what that, you know, Grad A: Means. Grad E: means, and then {pause} come up with that {disfmarker} so who that someone was. Grad A: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says" and when you're done, tell me who fills that slot" or w you know. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So, um. And, you know, this is sort of a nice way to do it, the idea of sort of saying that you treat {disfmarker} from the simulation point of view or whatever {disfmarker} you treat, uh, WH constructions similarly to uh, indefinite pronouns like" someone fixed the car" because {pause} lots of languages, um, have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever, Grad B: Use actually the same one. Grad A: and you just get intonation to tell you that it's a question. So it makes sense Professor C: Alright, which is Grad A: um Professor C: Skolemization. Grad A: Hmm? Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: In {disfmarker} in logic, it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it's actual Huh? Grad B: Right. {vocalsound} Let's put a Skolem {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Skolem constant in, Grad A: Yeah. shko Professor C: What? Grad A: Sure. Grad B: yeah. Yeah. {pause} Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: That - that's not {disfmarker} that's not saying it's bad, Grad A: Right. Right. No. Of course. Professor C: it's just that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the logicians have {disfmarker} have, uh {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. It makes sense from that point of view, too, which is actually better. Grad E: come up with this Grad A: So yeah, um. Anyway, but just that kind of thing and we'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on, but Professor C: Good. Grad A: Uh, no, all the focus stuff. We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know, like, what we were talking about {comment} exactly, what the object of study was. Grad B: Um - mmm. Grad A: So. Professor C: Yeah. Well, if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I mean, i part of {disfmarker} of what the exercise is, t by the end of next week, is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet. Grad A: Yeah. Yep. Professor C: That's fine. I mean Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you do wanna discuss focus {pause} background and then get me into that because {disfmarker} I mean, I wo I w scientifically worked on that for {disfmarker} for almost two years. Grad A: Yeah. OK, then certainly we will. Good. Grad B: Yeah, you should definitely, um be on on that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe by {disfmarker} after Monday we'll {disfmarker} y you can see what things we are and aren't {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. w We should figure out what our questions are, for example, {vocalsound} to ask you. Grad B: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad B: OK. Grad A: OK. Professor C: Wel - then t Hans. Has {disfmarker} I haven't seen Hans Boas? Grad B: He's been around. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Just maybe not today. Professor C: OK. So has he been {disfmarker} been involved with this, or {disfmarker}? Grad B: Eh. with us? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily, um, Keith and {disfmarker} Keith and me, but um like in th the meeting {disfmarker} I mean, he sort of {disfmarker} I thin like the last meeting we had, I think we were all very much part of it Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {pause} um Grad A: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a {pause} devil's advocate type role or something, Grad B: but different perspec Yeah. Grad A: like {pause}" This make {disfmarker} you know, I'm going to pretend I'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this. This makes no sense." And he'll just go off on parts of it which {pause} definitely need fixing Grad B: Right. Grad A: but aren't where we're at right now, so it's Grad B: Like {disfmarker} like what you call certain things, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: which we decided long ago we don't care that much right now. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But in a sense, it's good to know that he {pause} of all people {disfmarker} Professor C: OK. Grad B: you know, like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions, so, you know, he's like a relatively friendly linguist Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: and yet a word like" constraint" causes a lot of problems. And, so. {pause} Right. So. Professor C: OK. This is consistent with um the role I had suggested that he {disfmarker} he play, Grad B: Ah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: OK, which was {pause} that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called" Towards a formal cognitive semantics" which was addressed to these linguists {pause} uh {pause} who haven't been following {pause} this stuff at all. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So {pause} it could be that he's actually, at some level, thinking about how am I going to {pause} communicate this story {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Professor C: So, internally, we should just do {pause} whatever works, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: cuz it's hard enough. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But {pause} if he g if he turns {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does {pause} connect with as many as possible of the {pause} other linguists in the world um {comment} then {disfmarker} then it becomes important to {pause} use terminology that doesn't make it hard {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Sure. Professor C: I mean, it's gonna be plenty hard for {disfmarker} for people to understand it as it is, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but y y you don't want to make it worse. Grad A: Yeah. No, right. I mean, tha that role is {disfmarker} is, uh, indispensable Professor C: So. Grad A: but that's not where sort of our heads were at in these meetings. Professor C: Right. Grad A: It was a little strange. Professor C: Yeah, yeah. {disfmarker} No, that's fine. I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him, and I wanted t to get a feeling for that. OK. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly, you know. Professor C: OK. Good. Grad A: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view. Grad B: I think it's good when we're {disfmarker} when we're into data and looking at the {disfmarker} some specific linguistic phenomenon {pause} in {disfmarker} in English or in German, in particular, whatever, that's great, Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: and Ben and {disfmarker} and Hans are, if {disfmarker} if anything, more {disfmarker} you know, they have more to say than, let's say, I would about some of these things. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But when it's like, well, w how do we capture these things, you know, I think it's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know, who have worried more about the {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Well, that's good. That's {disfmarker} I I I think that should be the {disfmarker} the core group Grad B: s Which is fine. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Professor C: and {pause} um that's, you know, I think {pause} very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. We actually have {disfmarker} I think we have been making progress, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and its sort of surprising. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I definitely get that impression. Yeah. Grad B: You know, like {disfmarker} Grad A: Yep. Professor C: That's great. Grad B: Yeah. So anyone else would like uh {comment} ruin the balance of {disfmarker} Anyway. Professor C: Well, but {disfmarker} Well. But th th then w then we have to come back to the bigger group. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Great. And then we're gon we're gonna {disfmarker} because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is {pause} actually implementing this stuff? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that. Grad B: Yeah, we could talk tomorrow. I was just gonna say, though, that, for instance, there was {disfmarker} you know, out of a meeting with Johno {pause} came the suggestion that" oh, could it be that the {pause} meaning {pause} constraints really aren't used for selection?" which has sort of been implicit {pause} in the parsing {pause} strategy we talked about. Professor C: Right. Grad B: In which case we w we can just say that they're the effects or the bindings. Which {pause} uh, so far, in terms of like putting up all the constraints as, you know, pushing them into type constraints, the {disfmarker} when I've, you know, propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me {disfmarker} you know, we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work. Right? As long as we allow our type constraints to be reasonably {pause} complex. Professor C: Well, it {disfmarker} Grad B: So {disfmarker} Anyway, to be {disfmarker} to talk about later. Professor C: Yeah, it has to in the sense that you're gonna use them eventu it's {disfmarker} you know, it's sort of a, um, generate and test kind of thing, Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: and if you over - generate then you'll have to do more. I mean, if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use uh, in your initial matching then you'll match some things {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: I mean, I {disfmarker} I d I don't think there's any way that it could completely fail. It {disfmarker} it could be that uh, you wind up {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because {pause} there were just vastly too many parses. You know, exponentially num num many parses. And so th the concern might be that {disfmarker} not that it would totally fail, but that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. That it would still generate too many. {comment} Right? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types, right? Professor C: it would still genera Grad B: Like" conceptually these have to be construed as this, this, and this" might still give us quite a few possibilities Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: that, you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and it certainly helps a lot. Professor C: We don't know, but, yeah. Grad B: I mean, le let's put it that way. So. Professor C: No question. Yeah. And I think it's a {disfmarker} it's a perfectly fine place to start. You know, and say, let let's see how far we can go this way. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: And, uh {disfmarker} Grad D: Well it definitely makes the problem easier. Professor C: I'm {disfmarker} I'm in favor of that. Uh, cuz I think i I think it's {disfmarker} As you know, I think it's real hard and if w if we {disfmarker} Right. Grad B: So {pause} Friday, Monday Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Monday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So. OK, that's {disfmarker} Tuesday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Like {disfmarker} {comment} th that's the conclusion. OK. Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: So, you your dance card is {pause} completely filled now? Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, and I have nothing to do this weekend but work. Grad E: Why don't {disfmarker} Grad B: No, that's not really true, Grad A: Bummer. Grad B: but like {disfmarker} Grad D: What about {disfmarker} What about DDR? Grad B: It's almost true. Grad F: Grad B: Oh, I don't have it this weekend, so, tsk {comment} don't have to worry about that. Grad D: Mmm. Professor C: DDR, he asked? Grad B: Speaking of dance, Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I'm {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker} it's like a game, but it's for, like, dancing. Hard to {disfmarker} It's like karaoke, but for dancing, and they tell you what {disfmarker} It's amazing. It's so much fun. Yeah, it's so good. My friend has a home version and he brought it over, and we are so into it. It's so amazing. Well, y you know of it? I i i it's one of your hobbies? It's great exercise, I must say. I can't wait to hear this. Uh - huh. Oh, definitely. They have, like, places {disfmarker} instead of like {disfmarker} Yeah, instead of karaoke bars now that have, like, DDR, like {disfmarker} Yeah, yeah, I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend, who's like" Oh, well, I can bring over the DDR if you want." Oh, oh, Dance Dance Revolution {disfmarker} OK. He actually brought a clone called Stepping Selection, but it's just as good. So. Anyw

The Bayes-net is going to be the focus of the presentation. In order to complete a functioning prototype of the belief-net, it was decided to start expanding the Ontology and Discourse nodes by working with a simple construction, like" where is X?" . A robust analysis of such a basic utterance will indicate what the limits of the information derived from the construction are, as well as ways to design the whole module and fit other constructions in.

tr-sq-735

tr-sq-735_0

What was said of the" where is X" construction? Grad B: Sorry. Mental {disfmarker} mental Palm Pilot. Right. Hence {pause} no problem. Grad F: Let's see. So. What? I'm supposed to be on channel five? Her. Nope. Doesn't seem to be, Grad B: Hello {pause} I'm channel one. Grad F: yeah. Grad D: Grad E: What does your thing say on the back? Grad D: Testing. Grad F: Nnn, five. Alright, I'm five. Grad D: Sibilance. Sibilance. {comment} {pause} Three, three. I am three. Grad B: Eh. Grad D: See, that matches the seat up there. So. Grad F: Yeah, well, I g guess {pause} it's coming up then, or {disfmarker} Grad D: Cuz it's {disfmarker} That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one. Ergo, the classic off - by - one error. Grad B: But mine is correct. Grad D: Is it? Grad E: No. Grad B: It's one. Channel one. Grad D: Your mike {pause} number {pause} is what we're t Grad E: Look at the back. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh! Oh. Grad D: Ho! Grad B: So {disfmarker} Grad D: I've bested you again, Nancy. Grad B: But your p No, but the paper's correct. Grad D: The paper is correct. Grad B: Look at the paper. Grad D: I didn't det I was saying the microphone, not the paper. Professor C: Nnn, Grad B: Oh. Professor C: it's n Grad B: OK. Professor C: It's always offset. Yeah. Grad B: Yes, you've bested me again. That's how I think of our continuing interaction. Damn! Foiled again! Grad D: So is Keith showing up? He's talking with George right now. Uh, is he gonna get a rip {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} rip himself away from {disfmarker} from that? Grad B: He'll probably come later. Professor C: What {disfmarker} He - he he's probably not, is my guess. Grad D: Oh, then it's just gonna be the five of us? Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: Well, he {disfmarker} he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four. But {pause} you know, that was before he knew about that George lecture probably. Professor C: Right. This {disfmarker} this is not {disfmarker} It's not bad for the project if Keith is talking to George. OK. So my suggestion is we just Grad B: Forge ahead. Professor C: Forge ahead, yeah. Grad E: Cool. Grad B: Are you in charge? Grad E: Sure. Um. Well, I sort of had informal talks with most of you. So, Eva just reported she's really happy about the {pause} CBT's being in the same order in the XML as in the um {disfmarker} be Java declaration format Grad F: Yeah. The e Grad E: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion. Grad F: Uh, yeah. Yeah, so. Grad E: The {disfmarker} uh, Java {disfmarker} the embedded Bayes {pause} wants to take input {disfmarker} uh, uh, a Bayes - net {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that's output by the Java Bayes for the {disfmarker} into the, uh, E Bayes input. Grad D: Mmm. Grad F: Actually, maybe I could try, like, emailing the guy and see if he has any something already. Professor C: Sure. Grad E: Hmm. Grad F: That'd be weird, that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in {disfmarker} Grad D: But that's some sort of conversion program? Grad F: Yeah. Yeah. And put them into different {pause} formats. Oh {disfmarker} Grad D: I think you should demand things from him. Grad F: Yep, he could do that, too. Professor C: He charges so much. Right. Grad D: Yeah. Professor C: No, I think it's a good idea that you may as well ask. Sure. Grad F: Yeah. Grad E: And, um, well {pause} pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list, I would have asked Keith how the" where is X?" {pause} hand parse is standing. Um. {pause} But we'll skip that. Uh, there's good news from Johno. The generation templates are done. Grad D: So the trees {pause} for {disfmarker} the XML trees for the {disfmarker} for the gene for the synthesizer are written. So I just need to {pause} do the, uh {disfmarker} write a new set of {pause} tree combining rules. But I think those'll be pretty similar to the old ones. So. Just gonna be {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} Professor C: Oh! You were gonna send me a note about hiring {disfmarker} Grad E: Yes. Professor C: I didn't finish the sentence but he understood it. Grad D: I know what he's talking about. Professor C: OK. But Nancy doesn't. Grad B: Hiring somebody. Grad E: We {disfmarker} w um {disfmarker} Grad D: The guy. Grad E: OK, so {pause} natural language generation {pause} produces not a {disfmarker} just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but, a {pause} surface string with a syntax tree that's fed into a concept - to - speech. Professor C: No. Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Better. Grad E: Now and this concept - to - speech module has {pause} certain rules on how {pause} if you get the following syntactic structure, how to map this onto prosodic rules. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Sure. Mm - hmm. Grad E: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite uh, the German concept uh syntax - to - prosody rules {disfmarker} Grad B: I didn't know she spoke German. Grad E: No, she doesn't. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: But she speaks English. Grad B: Oh. Rewrite the German ones into English. OK, got it. Grad E: Into English. And um therefore {pause} the, uh {disfmarker} if it's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week, then {pause} she'll do that. Grad B: OK, got it. Grad D: What {pause} language is that {pause} written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me? Grad E: Yeah. That's the LISP - type scheme. Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme? I hope? Grad E: No, I {disfmarker} My guess is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I asked for a commented version of that file? If we get that, then it's {pause} doable, even without getting into it, even though the Scheme li uh, stuff is really well documented in the {pause} Festival. Grad D: Well, I guess if you're not used to functional programming, Scheme can be completely incomprehensible. Cuz, there's no {disfmarker} Like {pause} there's lots of unnamed functions Professor C: Syntax. Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: You know? Professor C: Anyway, it {disfmarker} We'll sort this out. Um. But anyway, send me the note and then I'll - I'll check with, uh, Morgan on the money. I {disfmarker} I don't anticipate any problem but we have to {pause} ask. Oh, so this was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} You know, on the generation thing, um if {comment} sh y she's really going to do that, then we should be able to get prosody as well. So it'll say it's nonsense with perfect intonation. Grad D: Are we gonna {disfmarker} Can we change the voice of the {disfmarker} of the thing, because right now the voice sounds like a murderer. Grad E: Yep. We ha we have to change the voice. Grad B: Wh - Which one? Grad D: The {disfmarker} the little Smarticus {disfmarker} Smarticus sounds like a murderer. Grad B: Oh. Grad A: That's good to know. Grad D:" I have your reservations." Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair. Grad E: It is {disfmarker} Uh, we have the choice between the, uh, usual Festival voices, which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they're really bad. Grad B: Festival? Professor C: It's the name of some program, Grad B: Oh, oh. Got it. OK. Professor C: the {disfmarker} the synthesizer. Grad A: You know, the usual party voices. Grad E: But, um Grad B: Yeah, I know. That doesn't sound, {vocalsound} exactly right either. Grad E: OGI has, uh, crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we're going to use {pause} that. We can still, um, d agree on a gender, if we want. So we still have male or female. Grad B: I think {disfmarker} Well, let's just pick whatever sounds best. Grad E: Hmm? Grad B: Whatever sounds best. Grad E: Uh. Grad B: Unfortunately, probably male voices, a bit more research on. Grad D: Does OGI stand for {disfmarker}? {comment} Original German Institute? Professor C: Orego Grad B: So. Professor C: Or Grad E: Oregon. Grad B: Oregon Graduate Insti Professor C: Oregon @ @ {comment} Graduate Institute Grad D: Oh. Grad E: Try Oregon. Grad D: Ah. Professor C: It turns out there's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group. Grad B: Hmm! Professor C: Very long. Grad D: Hmm! Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: In fact, there's this guy who's basically got a joint appointment, Hynek {pause} Hermansky. He's - spends a fair amount of time here. Anyway. Leave it. Won't be a problem. Grad E: OK. And it's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to, um learn that as of twenty minutes ago, David and I, per accident, uh managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the {disfmarker} uh, ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from {pause} one on my laptop to three. Grad B: Mmm, that's good. Grad D: How was this by accident? Grad B: Yeah, I know. Tha - that's the part I didn't understand. Grad E: Um, I suggested to try something that was really kind of {disfmarker} even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked, but it worked. Grad B: Hmm! Grad E: Intuition. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Will it work again, Grad E: Maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing. Grad B: or {disfmarker}? Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: OK. And, um, we'll never found out why. It - it's just like why {disfmarker} why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working? Grad A: Hmm! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer, right? Grad E: Which Grad A: You know, {comment} and it's cool, it works out that way. Grad E: Hmm. So, {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again. Yeah, that would work. OK. Um {disfmarker} I was gonna ask you where something is and what we know about that. Grad A: Where {disfmarker} OK. Grad B: Where the" where is" construction is. Grad A: What {disfmarker} what thing is this? Grad E: Where is X? Grad A: OK. Grad E: Oh, but by {disfmarker} Uh, we can ask, uh, did you get to read all four hundred words? Professor C: I did. Grad E: Was it OK? Was it? Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I wa I was looking at it. It doesn't follow logically. It doesn't {disfmarker} The first paragraph doesn't seem to have any link to the second paragraph. Grad A: And so on. Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Hmm. That {disfmarker} Professor C: You know, i Yeah, it {disfmarker} Grad D: Each paragraph is good, though. I li Professor C: I i Yeah. Well, it it's fine. Grad A: It was written by committee. Professor C: Anyway. Um. But c the meeting looks like it's, it's gonna be good. So. I think it's uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I didn't know about it until {pause} Robert told me, like, Professor C: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I ra I ran across it in {disfmarker} I don't even know where, you know {disfmarker} some just {disfmarker} some weird place. And, uh, yeah, I I'm surprised I didn't know about it Grad B: Y yeah. Well, yeah. I was like, why didn't Dan tell me? Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers, an Grad A: Right. Professor C: Right, or some Anyway. So {disfmarker} But anyway, yeah. I so I {disfmarker} I did see that. Oh wha Yeah. Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler, who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the, um, {disfmarker} you know, using these structured belief - nets and stuff but {pause} starting in August, that she's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we'll figure out a way for you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} you to get seriously connected with, um their group. So that's, uh {disfmarker} looks pretty good. And um {disfmarker} Yeah, I'll say it now. So, um {disfmarker} And it looks to me like {comment} we're now at a good point to do something {disfmarker} start working on something really hard. We've been so far working on things that are easy. Grad A: Oh! Professor C: Uh, w Which is {comment} mental spaces and uh {disfmarker} and - or {disfmarker} Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: It's a hard puzzle. But the other part of it is the way they connect to these, uh, probabilistic relational models. So {pause} there's all the problems that the linguists know about, about mental spaces, and the cognitive linguists know about, but then there's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets. Uh, which they call dynamic {disfmarker} they incorrectly call dynamic belief - nets. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: So there's a term" dynamic belief - net" , doesn't mean that. It means time slices. And Srini used those and people use them. Uh. But one of the things I w would like to do over the next, uh, month, it may take more, {comment} is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and uh sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be, but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences. So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models, they're set up, in principle, so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other, and all that sort of stuff, so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate {pause} uh, belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate. But that's g that's, as far as I can tell, it's {disfmarker} it's putting together two real hard problems. One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and {disfmarker} and when you have a certain, uh, construction, that implies certain couplings and other couplings, you know, between let's say between the past and the present, or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it's got um, let's say one in {disfmarker} in, you know, different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs, or any of these other ones of {disfmarker} of multiple models. So um you know, in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both, uh, in a way we that, you know, th hopefully turns out to be consistent, so that the {disfmarker} Um. And sometimes it's actually easier to solve two hard problems than one Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: because they constrain each other. I mean if you've got huge ra huge range of possible choices um {disfmarker} We'll see. But anyway, so that's, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh yeah, like uh, I solved the {disfmarker} the problem of um {disfmarker} we were talking about how do you {disfmarker} various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote" count as a noun phrase" , you know, occur as an argument of a higher construction, but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Um, and it would take a really long time to explain it now, but I'm about to write it up this evening. I solved that at the same time as" how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase" to get something like" I the kicked dog" . Um. Did it {disfmarker} did it at once. Professor C: That's great. Grad A: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe it'll be a similar thing. Grad B: Cool. Professor C: Yeah. No, I know, I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of {disfmarker} of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some, uh, relatively clean rules, they're just not context - free trees. Grad A: Right. Professor C: And if we {disfmarker} if the formalism is {disfmarker} is good, then we should be able to have, you know, sort of moderate scale thing. And that by the way is {disfmarker} is, Keith, what I encouraged George to be talking with you about. Not the formalism yet Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: but the phenomena. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: The p And {disfmarker} Oh, another thing, um there was this, uh thing that Nancy agreed to in a {disfmarker} in a weak moment this morning that Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: I was really strong. Grad A: Hmm! Grad F: Hmm. Professor C: Uh, sorry. In a {disfmarker} in a friendly moment. Grad A: Same thing. Professor C: Anyway, uh, that we were {disfmarker} that we're gonna try to get a uh, first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK? Probably skipping the mental spaces part. Grad B: Seems {disfmarker} Grad A: Right. I do. Professor C: Uh, just trying to write up essentially what {disfmarker} what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at. We've talked about it, but only the innermost inner group currently, uh, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Knows. Professor C: knows, uh Grad A: OK. Grad B: Yeah, and {disfmarker} and not even all of them really do. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: But like {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad A: There's {disfmarker} The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno Professor C: Well that that {disfmarker} yeah th there's one of the advantages of a document, right? , Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is that it actually transfers from head to head. Grad B: Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So anyway. So um {disfmarker} Grad B: Ah, communication! Professor C: Huh? Grad B: Communication. Grad A: Hunh! Professor C: Communication, documentation and stuff. Anyway, so, uh, with a little luck {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} l let's, let's have that as a goal anyway. Grad A: So, uh, what was the date there? Professor C: And {disfmarker} Grad A: Monday or {disfmarker}? It's a Friday. Professor C: No, no, no. No, w uh {disfmarker} we're talking about a week fr e end of next week. Grad A: End of next week. Grad B: But, uh, but {disfmarker} but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th Grad A: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah. Grad B: I mean. Anyway, w let's talk separately about how t Grad A: Yeah, I have a busy weekend but after that {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Yeah, gung - ho. Professor C: OK. Yeah, so {disfmarker} so someti sometime next week. Grad A: Great, Professor C: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that's fine. Grad A: Mm - hmm. OK. Professor C: You know, if you say we're {disfmarker} we're dump {disfmarker} dump {disfmarker} dump. There's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet {disfmarker} that, that's just fine. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But at {disfmarker} at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now. Professor C: Right, t t if {disfmarker} to the extent that we have it, let's write it Grad A: OK. Professor C: and to the extent we don't, let's find out what we need to do. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So, uh Grad E: Can we {disfmarker}? {vocalsound} Is it worth {pause} thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain, that involves a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a decent mental {pause} space shift {pause} or setting up {disfmarker} Professor C: I think it is, but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with" where is the Powder - Tower?" or whatever Grad B: Right. Grad A: Well. Uh, what was supposed to happen? I've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones, so, um, you know, I don't have a write - up of {disfmarker} or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm, yeah. I think {disfmarker} I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative {pause} paths that we {disfmarker} two alternative ways of representing it. One is sort of a {disfmarker} has a um Grad A: It's gone. Grad E: um Grad A: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic. Grad B: One of them was th Right. Grad E: or comes {disfmarker} Grad B: Right. Grad E: is resolved later. Yeah. Grad A: I think it has to be the {disfmarker} the second case. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um, so d'you {disfmarker} Is it clear what we're talking about here? Grad B: I agree. Grad A: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path. Professor C: Uh {disfmarker} Grad B: So you might be {disfmarker} yeah, y And asking for directions. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Um or {disfmarker} or whether the construction semantically, uh, is clearly only asking for location Grad E: Should we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} Grad A: but pragmatically that's construed as meaning" tell me how to get there" . Professor C: Mm - hmm. Yep. Grad E: So {pause} assume these are two, uh, nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Grad E: So these are either true or false and it's also just true {pause} or false. If we encounter a phrase such as" where is X?" , should that set this to true and this to true, and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely? Um, or should it just activate this, have this be false, and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means {disfmarker}? Professor C: Uh w that's a s Grad B: Slightly different. Professor C: OK, so that's a {disfmarker} that's a separate issue. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So I a I I th I agree with you that, um, it's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every uh, pragmatic reading, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: although there are some that will need to be there. Grad B: Good. Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right. Grad B: Right. Professor C: I mean, there there's some that {disfmarker} Grad B: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one. Professor C: You can't do that either. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. But, you know, c um {disfmarker} almost certainly" can you pass the salt" is a construction worth noting that there is this th this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Request. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Grad B: Very yeah. Grad A: So right, this one is maybe in the gray area. Is it {disfmarker} is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one {disfmarker} you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: Ri Yeah. Grad E: One Or in some cases, it's {disfmarker} it's quite definitely Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: s so that you just know {disfmarker} wanna know where it is. Grad A: Yeah. Well the question is basically, is this conventional or conversational implicature? Professor C: Exactly. Yeah. Grad B: Might be, yeah. Professor C: And I guess, see, the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it's more important to know how we would treat {disfmarker} technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B, than it is t to decide A or B r right now. Grad A: OK, right. Grad B: Right. Right. Grad A: Which of that is. {comment} Yeah, OK Grad B: Which one it is. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Cuz there will be other k examples that are one way or the other. Right. Professor C: W we know for sure that we have to be able to do both. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So I guess {vocalsound} In the short run, let's {disfmarker} let's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be. Grad A: OK. Grad E: And then the {vocalsound} we had another idea floating around um, which we wanted to, uh, get your input on, and that concerns the {disfmarker} But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it, and that's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML {pause} who is going to be visiting us, uh, the week before, uh, August and a little bit into August. And she would like to {vocalsound} apply the {pause} ontology that is, um {vocalsound} being crafted at EML. That's not the one I sent you. The one I sent you was from GMD, out of a European CRUMPET. Professor C: It was terrible. Grad E: Agreed. Um, and one of the reas one of the {disfmarker} those ideas was, so, back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history {pause} and it said the word" admission fee" was uh, mentioned um, it's more likely that the person actually wants to enter {pause} than just take a picture of it from the outside. Now what could imagine {disfmarker} to, you know, have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history, yeah? That's the really stupid way. Then there is the {pause} really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the, uh, middle way that I'm suggesting and that is you {disfmarker} you get X, which is whatever, the castle. The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours, that they have admission fees, they have whatever. And then, this is {disfmarker} We go via a thesaurus and look up {pause} certain linguistic surface structures {pause} that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity. We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side. But Keith suggested that a {disfmarker} a much cleaner way would be {disfmarker} is, you know, to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you {disfmarker} if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before, this just a continues to add up, you know, in th in a {disfmarker} Grad A: So if someone mentions admission f fees, that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what's being talked about. And then when someone asks" where is X?" you've already got the {disfmarker} the Enter schema activated Grad B: Kind of a priming Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and you're able to {disfmarker} to conclude on it. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: priming a spreading activation Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Yeah. So that's certainly {pause} more {pause} realistic. Grad A: Right. Professor C: I m I mean psychologically. Now technically Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Um Grad D: Well, uh, is it {disfmarker} doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a {disfmarker} a thread, that you know, kept track of ho of the activity of {disfmarker} I mean, cuz it would {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thread would know what nodes {pause} like, needed to be activated, so it could just keep track of {pause} how long it's been since {pause} something's been mentioned, and {pause} automatically load it in. Professor C: Yeah. You could do that. Um. But here's {disfmarker} here's a way {disfmarker} in th in the bl Bayes - net you could {disfmarker} you could think about it this way, that if um {pause} at the time" admissions fee" was mentioned {pause} you could increase the probability {pause} that someone wanted to enter. Grad B: Turn prior on. Grad D: We - yeah {disfmarker} th th that's what I wa I wasn't {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas. I was just {disfmarker} Professor C: Fair enough, OK, but, but, in terms of the c c the current implementation {disfmarker} right? so that um Grad B: It would already be higher in the {pause} context. Professor C: th that th the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the conditional probability that someone {disfmarker} So at the time you mentioned it {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: It's {disfmarker} In some ways it's not as good but it's {pause} the implementation we got. Grad A: Yeah, sure. No, I mean Professor C: We don't have a connectionist implementation. Now {disfmarker} Now my guess is that it's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another {pause} intervening object has been mentioned. Grad B: Yeah, relevance. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: I mean, we could look at dialo this is {disfmarker} Of course the other thing we ha we do is, is we have this data coming Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: which probably will blow all our theories, Grad A: Yeah, right. Professor C: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but skipping that {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but my guess is what {disfmarker} what'll probably will happen, Here's a {disfmarker} here's a proposed design. {comment} is that there're certain constructions which, uh, for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the, uh, standard way that {disfmarker} that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever, but that's sort of the most recent thing. And so it could be that {pause} when another uh, en tourist entity gets mentioned, you Grad B: Renew Professor C: re re essentially re - initiali you know, re - i essentially re - initialize the {pause} state. Grad D: Mmm. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have {disfmarker} uh, you could keep track of what someone was {pause} uh saying about this and that. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: You know," I wanna go {disfmarker} in the morning Grad A:" Here's my plan for today. Professor C: I wanna {disfmarker}" Grad A: Here's my plan for tomorrow." Professor C: Yeah, or {disfmarker} Yeah, in the morning morning I I'm planning t to go shopping, Grad A: hypothetically. Professor C: in the afternoon to the Powder - Tower {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Uh, tal so I'm talking about shopping and then you say, uh, you know, well, um" What's it cost?" or something. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Or {disfmarker} Anyway. So one could well imagine, but not yet. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But I do th think that the {disfmarker} {comment} It'll turn out that it's gonna be {disfmarker} depend pretty much on whether there's been an override. Grad E: Yeah, I mean, if {disfmarker} if you ask" how much does a train ride and {disfmarker} and cinema around the vineyards cost?" and then somebody tells you it's sixty dollars and then you say" OK How much is, uh {disfmarker} I would like to {pause} visit the {disfmarker}" {vocalsound} whatever, something completely different," then I go to, you know, Point Reyes" , Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: it {disfmarker} it's not more likely that you want to enter anything, but it's, as a matter of fact, a complete rejection of entering by doing that. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Right. Grad B: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something, it's only for that particular {disfmarker} It's relational, right? It's only for that particular object. Professor C: Yeah, I th th Yeah. Well, and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the simple idea is that it's on it's only for m for the current uh, tourist e entity of instre interest. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Grad E: Yeah. But that's {disfmarker} I mean this {disfmarker} this function, so, has the current object been mentioned in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} with a question about {disfmarker} concerning its {disfmarker} Professor C: No, no. It's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} It goes the other d it goes in the other direction. Is {disfmarker} When th When the {disfmarker} this is mentioned, {pause} the uh probability of {disfmarker} of, let's say, entering changes Grad B: Of that object. For {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Professor C: changes. Grad B: Right. Grad D: You could just hav uh, just basically, ob it {disfmarker} It observes an {disfmarker} er, it sets the {disfmarker} a node for" entered" or" true" or something, Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh {disfmarker} But I think Ro - Robert's right, that to determine that, OK? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus Grad D:" discourse enter" . Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} So, if the issue is, if {disfmarker} so now th this construction has been matched and you say" OK. Does this actually have any implications for our decisions?" Then there's another piece of code {vocalsound} that presumably {pause} does that computation. Grad B: So, sort of forward chaining in a way, rather than {pause} backward. Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: OK. Professor C: But {disfmarker} but what's Robert's saying is {disfmarker} is, and I think he's right, {comment} is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all {disfmarker} you know, all the wo Uh maybe. I'll have to think about that. Grad B: Hmm. Professor C: I don't know. I mean it {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} I can thi I can think of arguments in either direction on that. But somehow you want to do it. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Well, it's just another, sort of, construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the {pause} probabilities, and - or {disfmarker} Grad B: Guess it's like {disfmarker} I g The other thing is, whether you have a m m user model that has, you know, whatever, a current plan, whatever, plans that had been discussed, and I don't know, I mean {disfmarker} Grad D: What {disfmarker} uh, what's the argument for putting it in the construction? Is it just that {pause} the s synonym selection is better, or {disfmarker}? Professor C: Oh, wel Well, the ar the {disfmarker} The argument is that you're gonna have the {disfmarker} If you've recognized the word, you've recognized the word, which means you have a lexical construction for it, so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it's a uh, you know, thirty percent increase in probability of entering. You {disfmarker} So you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could invert {disfmarker} invert the whole thing, so you s you tag that information on to {pause} the lexicon Grad D: Mmm. Oh, I see. Professor C: since you had to recognize it anyway. That {disfmarker} that's the argument in the other direction. at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} Yeah, and this is {disfmarker} Grad E: Even though uh the lexical construction itself {disfmarker} out {disfmarker} out of context, uh, won't do it. I mean, y you have to keep track whether the person says Grad B: Yeah. Grad E:" But I but I'm not interested in the opening times" is sort of a more a V type. Professor C: Yeah there's, yeah ther there's that as well. Grad E: Yep. Hmm. So. But, we'll {disfmarker} uh, we have time to {disfmarker} This is a s just a sidetrack, but uh I think it's also something that people have not done before, is um, sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of, uh, inferences, on whether anything relevant to the current something has been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, has crept up in the dialogue history already, or not. And, um I have the, uh {disfmarker} If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom, I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there. Professor C: Good. OK. {comment} {vocalsound} Well, this {disfmarker} this is highly relevant to someone's thesis. Grad E: Yes, um. That's {disfmarker} uh, I'm {disfmarker} I'm keeping on good terms with Jan. Professor C: You've noticed that. OK. Grad E: Yeah. Professor C: So the point is, it's very likely that Robert's thesis is going to be along these lines, Grad B: Oh, s Professor C: and the local rules are if it's your thesis, you get to decide how it's done. OK. So if, you know {disfmarker} if this is {disfmarker} seriously, if this becomes part of your thesis, you can say, hey we're gonna do it this way, that's the way it's done. Grad E: Mmm. Grad B: Yay, it's not me. It's always me when it's someone's thesis. Professor C: No, no, no! No, no. We've got a lot {disfmarker} we've got a lot of theses going. Grad A: There's a few of us around now. Grad B: Now it's not. Yay! I know it is. Professor C: Yeah. Right. Grad E: Well, let's {disfmarker} let's talk after Friday the twenty - ninth. Then we'll see how f f Professor C: Right. So h he's got a th he's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor. Grad B: Yeah, he said he's gonna f finish his thesis by then. Grad A: Oh yeah. Grad E: Yeah. I should try to finish it by then. Yeah. Professor C: Oh, right. Grad E: So. Professor C: Um. Yeah. So I think {pause} in fact, That's the other thing. uh, this is {disfmarker} this is, speaking of hard problems, {comment} this is a very good time um, to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and {disfmarker} you know, where c where the construction per - se ends {pause} and where construal comes in, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, we've {disfmarker} we've done quite a bit of that. Professor C: cuz this is clearly part of th Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: We've been doing quite a bit of that. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Well I said. But that's part of what the f Grad B: We have many jobs for you, Ro - Robert. Professor C: Yeah. Well, he's gonna need this. Grad A: Yeah, it seems to always land in your category. Grad B: The conclusion. Grad A: You're lucky. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. So. {vocalsound} Right. So thing {disfmarker} That's part of why we want the formalism, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is because th it is gonna have implicit in it Grad E: Was I? In the room? Grad B: No, you weren't there {pause} on purpose. Like {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Made it much easier to make these decisions. Grad B: Obviously. Grad A: Uh. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Well I {disfmarker} That's tentative. Grad A: Yeah. Right, right, right. Professor C: They aren't decisions, they're ju they're just proposals. Grad A: Yes. {vocalsound} Excuse me. Grad B: No, they're decisions. OK. Professor C: Yeah, that {disfmarker} That's the point, is {disfmarker} is th Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Constraints. Let's call them constraints, around which one has to {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: Actually, yeah. {vocalsound} There's a problem with that word, too, though. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Anyway. But so that's that's w Yeah. Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis. So consequently don't I get to decide then that it's Robert's job? Professor C: No. Grad A: Anyhow. Professor C: Uh. Grad B: Well, I'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center {pause} and say it's Robert's. Like. Grad E: I've always been {pause} completely in favor of consensus decisions, Grad B: I can {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad E: so we'll {disfmarker} we'll find a way. Professor C: Well, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will, but um Grad B: I haven't. {comment} OK. Professor C: not {disfmarker} Grad E: It {disfmarker} it might even be {pause} interesting then to {pause} say that I should be forced to um, sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the, uh {disfmarker} out of the top hat Professor C: Yes. Grad E: and, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Always good. Professor C: Right. So Grad E: That metaphor is not going anywhere, you know. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Ri - No. Absolutely. So, uh, wh you had {disfmarker} you know you ha You had done one draft. Grad E: Yes, and, um, it's {disfmarker} Ha - None of that is basically still around, Grad B: I didn't get Professor C: And a another draft OK. Grad E: but it's {disfmarker} Professor C: D i Grad A: That's normal. Professor C: I i Grad B: Oh, I guess it's good I didn't read it. Professor C: I {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I'm shocked. This is the first time I've seen a thesis proposal change. Right. Anyway, uh. {vocalsound} So. Grad B: Really? Professor C: But, yeah, a second {disfmarker} that would be great. So, uh, a sec I mean you're gonna need it anyway. Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: and Grad E: Yeah, and I would like to d discuss it and, you know, get you guys's input Professor C: Right. Grad E: and make it sort of bomb - proof. Grad B: Bomb proof! Professor C: Yep. Grad A: Good. Grad E: Bullet - proof. Grad B: Oh! Oh, OK. Grad E: That's the word I was looking for. Professor C: Both proof. Grad A: Either way. Grad B: Both. Professor C: Right. Grad B: Good luck. {vocalsound} Really. Professor C: Uh So that, so th thi this {disfmarker} I mean, so this is the point, is we {disfmarker} we're going to have to cycle through this, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is {disfmarker} is going to tell us a lot about {pause} what {pause} we think needs to be done by construal. And, um, we oughta be doing it. Grad E: OK. Yeah, we need {disfmarker} we need some {disfmarker} Then we need to make some dates. Um. Grad B: Grad E: Meeting {disfmarker} regular meeting time for the summer, we really haven't found one. We did {pause} Thursdays one for a while. I just talked to Ami. It's - it's a coincidence that he can't do {disfmarker} couldn't do it today {pause} here. Grad B: Usually, he can. Grad E: Usually he has no real constraints. Professor C: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday, Grad E: So {disfmarker} Professor C: cuz of {disfmarker} of, uh Grad E: Yeah, it was just an exception. Professor C: Yeah, you weren't here, but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} s uh, {disfmarker} And so, if that's OK with you, Grad A: It's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon? Professor C: you would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. It was th off this week, Grad B: Yeah. I always thought it was staying. Professor C: Yeah, it was th Grad A: yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I thought it was just this week that we were changing it. Professor C: Right. Grad E: Mmm. {pause} Yeah. Professor C: OK. Grad E: And, um. How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we {pause} have things to discuss with other people, there {disfmarker} they seem to be s tons of people around. Professor C: The only disadvantage {pause} is that it may interfere with other Grad E: Or {disfmarker} subgroup meetings Professor C: s you know, other {disfmarker} other {disfmarker} No, you {disfmarker} Uh, people in this group connecting with {disfmarker} with Grad B: Those people who {pause} happen to be around. Professor C: those people {pause} who {disfmarker} who might not be around so much. Uh, I don't care. I I uh you know I have no fixed {disfmarker} Grad A: To tell you the truth, I'd rath I'd, I'd {disfmarker} would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day, if possible. But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean. I don't know. Professor C: OK. Grad A: Whatever. Professor C: No, that's fine. I mean that {disfmarker} Grad E: The {disfmarker} I'd like to have them all in one day, Grad A: Yeah, I can understand that. Professor C: Well p Grad E: so package them up and then {disfmarker} Professor C: people {disfmarker} people differ in their tastes in this matter. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I'm neutral. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. {pause} I'm always here anyway, Grad E: It's OK, that {disfmarker} Grad B: so {disfmarker} It doesn't matter. Professor C: Yeah. @ @ That's {disfmarker} Me too. I'm basically {disfmarker} I'm here. So. Grad E: Well, if {disfmarker} one {pause} sort of thing is, this room is taken at {disfmarker} after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: So we have subjects anyway {disfmarker} Except for this week, we have subjects in here. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: That's why it was one. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So we just knew i Grad B: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o'Grad E: No, he can. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: So let's say Thursday one. But for next week, this is a bit late. So {pause} I would suggest that we need to {disfmarker} to talk {disfmarker} Grad B: Oh, oh, OK. Grad E: OK. About the c the {disfmarker} th Grad B: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty? Would that {disfmarker} that be horrible? Grad E: No. Yes. Grad B: Oh really? Grad E: Because, uh, this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan. Grad B: Oh, OK. OK. You didn't tell me that. OK, that's fine. Grad E: And the {disfmarker} s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings {disfmarker} Grad B: OK, OK, OK. OK. {pause} Yeah. Grad E: So. Grad A: Ah, yeah. Professor C: Interesting. So you're proposing that we meet Tuesday. Grad E: How about that? Grad A: Next week. Grad B: Well, we're meeting Tuesday. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I could Grad B: I mean we usually meet Tuesday {disfmarker} or l like, linguists {pause} um, at two. Grad D: Would it {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. Grad B: So. Do you want to meet again here bef Grad D: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at {disfmarker} on Tuesdays? Grad E: I mean w Well, actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday. Grad B: Hhh. {comment} Maybe I do need a Palm Pilot. Grad E: So there's {disfmarker} Nothing's impeding Monday anymore {pause} either. Grad A: That doesn't apply to a {disfmarker} Grad D: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday {disfmarker} er, take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping. Grad E: Get a fresh start {disfmarker} Yeah, that's another s thing. Yeah. But, um. I mean, there are also usually then holidays anyways. I mean {pause} like {disfmarker} {comment} Sometimes {pause} it works out that way. Grad B: Usually? Grad E: So. Hmm! Grad B: Well, I mean, the linguists'meeting {pause} i happens to be at two, but I think that's {disfmarker} I mean. Grad A: That should be relatively flexible be Grad B: pretty flexible, I think. Grad A: Yeah. There's just {pause} sort of the two to four of us. Grad B: So. The multiple meetings Grad A: Right? Yeah. So. Grad B: yeah. Grad A: And, you know, of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Grad A: So, you know, I mean. Grad E: OK, so {pause} l forget about the b the camping thing. So let's {disfmarker} eh, any other problems w w w? But, I suggested Monday. If that's a problem for me then I shouldn't {pause} suggest it. Grad D: Ha - ha - ha. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So. Grad A: Um, all of the proposed times sound fine with me. Grad B: Same here. Grad E: Monday? Professor C: OK, whate I mean {disfmarker} What I think Robert's saying is that Grad A: Earlier in the week Professor C: earlier we {disfmarker} At least for next week, there's a lot of stuff we want to get done, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: so why don't we plan to meet Monday Grad E: Mmm. Professor C: and {pause} we'll see if we want to meet any more than that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: What time? Grad E: OK. Grad B: At o o o o one, two, three {disfmarker}? Grad E: One, two, three? Three's too late. Professor C: Oh, I i {pause} Yeah, I actually {disfmarker} Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday. Grad E: Two - thirty? OK, two. Professor C: Here I'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday. Grad A: Sure. Sounds great. Uh, so that's the eighteenth. Grad B: You guys will still remind me, right? Grad D: No way! Grad B: Y you'll come and take all the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the headph the good headphones first and then remind me. Grad E: W why do you {disfmarker}? Grad A: Yeah, exactly. Sorry, two PM. Grad E: And Grad B: Why do I have this unless I'm gonna write? Grad E: do I get to see th uh, your formalism before {pause} that? Grad B: Fine. Yes. Uh. Would you like to? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: OK. I was actually gonna work on it for tomorrow {disfmarker} like this {disfmarker} this weekend. Grad E: I wo I would like {disfmarker} I would sort of {pause} get a {disfmarker} get a notion of what {disfmarker} what you guys have in store for me. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Well m @ @ you know, w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put {disfmarker} This is part of what we can do Monday, if we want. Grad B: Yeah. I OK. Grad A: Alright. Grad B: I mean, I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Professor C: Is some {disfmarker} some version Grad E: OK. Grad B: Yeah, so there was like, you know, m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version, like, everything I know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: And then, w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know, that {disfmarker} you know, see if they're consistent. Grad A: Yeah. OK. Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. That's f fine with me. Grad A: OK. Grad B: So. I might {disfmarker} I might {disfmarker} um, Grad E: You - y Grad B: s You said you're busy {pause} over th until the weekend, right? Grad A: Yeah, sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show. Grad B: That's fine. So we might continue our email thing Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and that might be fine, too. So, maybe I'll send you some {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, if you have time after this I'll show you the noun phrase thing. Grad B: OK. That would be cool. So. OK, and we'll {disfmarker} You wanna m Grad E: So the idea is on Monday at two we'll {disfmarker} we'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So that's OK for you {disfmarker} Grad E: and do an on - line merging with my construal {pause} ideas. Grad B: Sure, sure. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK. Grad B: That's OK. Grad E: So it won't be, like, a for semi - formal presentation of my {pause} proposal. It'll be more like towards {pause} finalizing that proposal. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Cuz then you'll find out more of what we're making you do. Grad E: OK, that's fine. Yep, and then {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Hmm, hmm. Grad E: Yikes. Grad A: Oy, {comment} deadlines. Grad B: We'll make a presentation of your propo {comment} of your proposal. Grad E: Perfect. Can you also write it up? Grad B: It's like," this is what we're doing. Professor C: Abso Grad B: And the complement is Robert." Grad E: I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you a style file, right? Grad B: OK. Grad E: You just {disfmarker} Grad B: I already sent you my fi {comment} my bib file. So. Grad E: OK. And, um. Sounds good. Grad A: Someday we also have to {disfmarker} we should probably talk about the other side of the" where is X" construction, which is the issue of, um, how do you simulate questions? What does the simspec look like for a question? Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Because {pause} it's a little different. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah, now, we we w Grad A: We had to {disfmarker} we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work. Professor C: Great. OK. Yeah. Simspec may need {disfmarker} we may n need to re - name that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I {disfmarker} Professor C: OK? So let's think of a name for {disfmarker} for whatever the {disfmarker} this intermediate structure is. Oh, we talked about semspec, for" semantic spec specification" Grad A: Mmm. Professor C: and that seems {disfmarker} Um. Grad A: It's more general Professor C: You know, so it's a m minimal change. Grad B: Only have to change one vowel. That's great. Professor C: Yeah. Just {disfmarker} Grad B: All the old like {vocalsound} graphs, Professor C: Right. Grad B: just change the {disfmarker} just, like, mark out the {disfmarker} Grad A: Cool. Professor C: Right, a little substi substi You know, that's what text substitution uh macros are for. Grad A: Yeah. It's good for you. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Anyway, uh, so let's {disfmarker} let's for the moment call it that until we think of something better. Grad A: OK. Professor C: And, yeah, we absolutely need to find {disfmarker} Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there, incl including the questions {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: We didn't {disfmarker} we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in {disfmarker} in uh, the semspec. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about {pause} that, too, which {disfmarker} uh, uh, it's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues, how they map onto this particular one, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {disfmarker} OK, yeah, understood. Professor C: But that's part of the formalism {disfmarker} is got to be uh, how things like that get marked. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: W do you have data, like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You have preliminary {pause} data? Cuz I know, you know, we've been using this one easy sentence and I'm sure you guys have {disfmarker} uh, maybe you are the one who've been looking at {pause} the rest of it {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, I Grad B: it'd {disfmarker} it'd be useful for me, if we want to {pause} have it a little bit more data oriented. Grad A: To tell you the truth, what I've been looking at has not been the data so far, Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm {pause} mm - hmm. Grad A: I just sort of said" alright let's see if I can get noun phrases and, uh, major verb co uh, constructions out of the way first." And I have not gotten them out of the way yet. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Surprise. So, um. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: So, I have not really approached a lot of the data, but I mean obviously like these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the question one, since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that, you know, I ca can try and, um run with that, you know, try and do some of the sentence constructions now. It would make sense. Grad E: OK. Do you wanna run the indefinite pronoun idea past Jerry? Grad B: OK. Grad A: Oh yeah, the basic idea is that um, uh {pause} you know {disfmarker} Uh, {vocalsound} let's see {pause} if I can {pause} formulate this. Grad E: So {pause} Mary fixed the car with a wrench. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: So you perform the mental sum and then, you know," who fixed the car with a wrench?" You {pause} basically are told, to {disfmarker} to do this In the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} analogously to the way you would do" someone fixed the car with a wrench" . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out {pause} what that, you know, Grad A: Means. Grad E: means, and then {pause} come up with that {disfmarker} so who that someone was. Grad A: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says" and when you're done, tell me who fills that slot" or w you know. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So, um. And, you know, this is sort of a nice way to do it, the idea of sort of saying that you treat {disfmarker} from the simulation point of view or whatever {disfmarker} you treat, uh, WH constructions similarly to uh, indefinite pronouns like" someone fixed the car" because {pause} lots of languages, um, have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever, Grad B: Use actually the same one. Grad A: and you just get intonation to tell you that it's a question. So it makes sense Professor C: Alright, which is Grad A: um Professor C: Skolemization. Grad A: Hmm? Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: In {disfmarker} in logic, it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it's actual Huh? Grad B: Right. {vocalsound} Let's put a Skolem {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Skolem constant in, Grad A: Yeah. shko Professor C: What? Grad A: Sure. Grad B: yeah. Yeah. {pause} Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: That - that's not {disfmarker} that's not saying it's bad, Grad A: Right. Right. No. Of course. Professor C: it's just that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the logicians have {disfmarker} have, uh {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. It makes sense from that point of view, too, which is actually better. Grad E: come up with this Grad A: So yeah, um. Anyway, but just that kind of thing and we'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on, but Professor C: Good. Grad A: Uh, no, all the focus stuff. We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know, like, what we were talking about {comment} exactly, what the object of study was. Grad B: Um - mmm. Grad A: So. Professor C: Yeah. Well, if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I mean, i part of {disfmarker} of what the exercise is, t by the end of next week, is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet. Grad A: Yeah. Yep. Professor C: That's fine. I mean Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you do wanna discuss focus {pause} background and then get me into that because {disfmarker} I mean, I wo I w scientifically worked on that for {disfmarker} for almost two years. Grad A: Yeah. OK, then certainly we will. Good. Grad B: Yeah, you should definitely, um be on on that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe by {disfmarker} after Monday we'll {disfmarker} y you can see what things we are and aren't {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. w We should figure out what our questions are, for example, {vocalsound} to ask you. Grad B: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad B: OK. Grad A: OK. Professor C: Wel - then t Hans. Has {disfmarker} I haven't seen Hans Boas? Grad B: He's been around. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Just maybe not today. Professor C: OK. So has he been {disfmarker} been involved with this, or {disfmarker}? Grad B: Eh. with us? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily, um, Keith and {disfmarker} Keith and me, but um like in th the meeting {disfmarker} I mean, he sort of {disfmarker} I thin like the last meeting we had, I think we were all very much part of it Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {pause} um Grad A: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a {pause} devil's advocate type role or something, Grad B: but different perspec Yeah. Grad A: like {pause}" This make {disfmarker} you know, I'm going to pretend I'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this. This makes no sense." And he'll just go off on parts of it which {pause} definitely need fixing Grad B: Right. Grad A: but aren't where we're at right now, so it's Grad B: Like {disfmarker} like what you call certain things, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: which we decided long ago we don't care that much right now. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But in a sense, it's good to know that he {pause} of all people {disfmarker} Professor C: OK. Grad B: you know, like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions, so, you know, he's like a relatively friendly linguist Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: and yet a word like" constraint" causes a lot of problems. And, so. {pause} Right. So. Professor C: OK. This is consistent with um the role I had suggested that he {disfmarker} he play, Grad B: Ah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: OK, which was {pause} that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called" Towards a formal cognitive semantics" which was addressed to these linguists {pause} uh {pause} who haven't been following {pause} this stuff at all. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So {pause} it could be that he's actually, at some level, thinking about how am I going to {pause} communicate this story {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Professor C: So, internally, we should just do {pause} whatever works, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: cuz it's hard enough. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But {pause} if he g if he turns {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does {pause} connect with as many as possible of the {pause} other linguists in the world um {comment} then {disfmarker} then it becomes important to {pause} use terminology that doesn't make it hard {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Sure. Professor C: I mean, it's gonna be plenty hard for {disfmarker} for people to understand it as it is, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but y y you don't want to make it worse. Grad A: Yeah. No, right. I mean, tha that role is {disfmarker} is, uh, indispensable Professor C: So. Grad A: but that's not where sort of our heads were at in these meetings. Professor C: Right. Grad A: It was a little strange. Professor C: Yeah, yeah. {disfmarker} No, that's fine. I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him, and I wanted t to get a feeling for that. OK. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly, you know. Professor C: OK. Good. Grad A: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view. Grad B: I think it's good when we're {disfmarker} when we're into data and looking at the {disfmarker} some specific linguistic phenomenon {pause} in {disfmarker} in English or in German, in particular, whatever, that's great, Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: and Ben and {disfmarker} and Hans are, if {disfmarker} if anything, more {disfmarker} you know, they have more to say than, let's say, I would about some of these things. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But when it's like, well, w how do we capture these things, you know, I think it's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know, who have worried more about the {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Well, that's good. That's {disfmarker} I I I think that should be the {disfmarker} the core group Grad B: s Which is fine. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Professor C: and {pause} um that's, you know, I think {pause} very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. We actually have {disfmarker} I think we have been making progress, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and its sort of surprising. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I definitely get that impression. Yeah. Grad B: You know, like {disfmarker} Grad A: Yep. Professor C: That's great. Grad B: Yeah. So anyone else would like uh {comment} ruin the balance of {disfmarker} Anyway. Professor C: Well, but {disfmarker} Well. But th th then w then we have to come back to the bigger group. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Great. And then we're gon we're gonna {disfmarker} because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is {pause} actually implementing this stuff? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that. Grad B: Yeah, we could talk tomorrow. I was just gonna say, though, that, for instance, there was {disfmarker} you know, out of a meeting with Johno {pause} came the suggestion that" oh, could it be that the {pause} meaning {pause} constraints really aren't used for selection?" which has sort of been implicit {pause} in the parsing {pause} strategy we talked about. Professor C: Right. Grad B: In which case we w we can just say that they're the effects or the bindings. Which {pause} uh, so far, in terms of like putting up all the constraints as, you know, pushing them into type constraints, the {disfmarker} when I've, you know, propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me {disfmarker} you know, we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work. Right? As long as we allow our type constraints to be reasonably {pause} complex. Professor C: Well, it {disfmarker} Grad B: So {disfmarker} Anyway, to be {disfmarker} to talk about later. Professor C: Yeah, it has to in the sense that you're gonna use them eventu it's {disfmarker} you know, it's sort of a, um, generate and test kind of thing, Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: and if you over - generate then you'll have to do more. I mean, if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use uh, in your initial matching then you'll match some things {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: I mean, I {disfmarker} I d I don't think there's any way that it could completely fail. It {disfmarker} it could be that uh, you wind up {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because {pause} there were just vastly too many parses. You know, exponentially num num many parses. And so th the concern might be that {disfmarker} not that it would totally fail, but that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. That it would still generate too many. {comment} Right? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types, right? Professor C: it would still genera Grad B: Like" conceptually these have to be construed as this, this, and this" might still give us quite a few possibilities Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: that, you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and it certainly helps a lot. Professor C: We don't know, but, yeah. Grad B: I mean, le let's put it that way. So. Professor C: No question. Yeah. And I think it's a {disfmarker} it's a perfectly fine place to start. You know, and say, let let's see how far we can go this way. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: And, uh {disfmarker} Grad D: Well it definitely makes the problem easier. Professor C: I'm {disfmarker} I'm in favor of that. Uh, cuz I think i I think it's {disfmarker} As you know, I think it's real hard and if w if we {disfmarker} Right. Grad B: So {pause} Friday, Monday Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Monday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So. OK, that's {disfmarker} Tuesday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Like {disfmarker} {comment} th that's the conclusion. OK. Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: So, you your dance card is {pause} completely filled now? Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, and I have nothing to do this weekend but work. Grad E: Why don't {disfmarker} Grad B: No, that's not really true, Grad A: Bummer. Grad B: but like {disfmarker} Grad D: What about {disfmarker} What about DDR? Grad B: It's almost true. Grad F: Grad B: Oh, I don't have it this weekend, so, tsk {comment} don't have to worry about that. Grad D: Mmm. Professor C: DDR, he asked? Grad B: Speaking of dance, Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I'm {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker} it's like a game, but it's for, like, dancing. Hard to {disfmarker} It's like karaoke, but for dancing, and they tell you what {disfmarker} It's amazing. It's so much fun. Yeah, it's so good. My friend has a home version and he brought it over, and we are so into it. It's so amazing. Well, y you know of it? I i i it's one of your hobbies? It's great exercise, I must say. I can't wait to hear this. Uh - huh. Oh, definitely. They have, like, places {disfmarker} instead of like {disfmarker} Yeah, instead of karaoke bars now that have, like, DDR, like {disfmarker} Yeah, yeah, I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend, who's like" Oh, well, I can bring over the DDR if you want." Oh, oh, Dance Dance Revolution {disfmarker} OK. He actually brought a clone called Stepping Selection, but it's just as good. So. Anyw

Additionally, in the example" Where is X?" construction, the ambiguity (Location or Path) could be coded either in the semantics of the construction or as if determined by context. The former could mean creating a different construction for every slight pragmatic variation, and the latter, some of the belief-net probabilities could be instantiated in the lexicon.

tr-gq-736

tr-gq-736_0

What were the resolutions in the meeting? Grad B: Sorry. Mental {disfmarker} mental Palm Pilot. Right. Hence {pause} no problem. Grad F: Let's see. So. What? I'm supposed to be on channel five? Her. Nope. Doesn't seem to be, Grad B: Hello {pause} I'm channel one. Grad F: yeah. Grad D: Grad E: What does your thing say on the back? Grad D: Testing. Grad F: Nnn, five. Alright, I'm five. Grad D: Sibilance. Sibilance. {comment} {pause} Three, three. I am three. Grad B: Eh. Grad D: See, that matches the seat up there. So. Grad F: Yeah, well, I g guess {pause} it's coming up then, or {disfmarker} Grad D: Cuz it's {disfmarker} That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one. Ergo, the classic off - by - one error. Grad B: But mine is correct. Grad D: Is it? Grad E: No. Grad B: It's one. Channel one. Grad D: Your mike {pause} number {pause} is what we're t Grad E: Look at the back. Grad B: Oh, oh, oh! Oh. Grad D: Ho! Grad B: So {disfmarker} Grad D: I've bested you again, Nancy. Grad B: But your p No, but the paper's correct. Grad D: The paper is correct. Grad B: Look at the paper. Grad D: I didn't det I was saying the microphone, not the paper. Professor C: Nnn, Grad B: Oh. Professor C: it's n Grad B: OK. Professor C: It's always offset. Yeah. Grad B: Yes, you've bested me again. That's how I think of our continuing interaction. Damn! Foiled again! Grad D: So is Keith showing up? He's talking with George right now. Uh, is he gonna get a rip {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} rip himself away from {disfmarker} from that? Grad B: He'll probably come later. Professor C: What {disfmarker} He - he he's probably not, is my guess. Grad D: Oh, then it's just gonna be the five of us? Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: Well, he {disfmarker} he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four. But {pause} you know, that was before he knew about that George lecture probably. Professor C: Right. This {disfmarker} this is not {disfmarker} It's not bad for the project if Keith is talking to George. OK. So my suggestion is we just Grad B: Forge ahead. Professor C: Forge ahead, yeah. Grad E: Cool. Grad B: Are you in charge? Grad E: Sure. Um. Well, I sort of had informal talks with most of you. So, Eva just reported she's really happy about the {pause} CBT's being in the same order in the XML as in the um {disfmarker} be Java declaration format Grad F: Yeah. The e Grad E: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion. Grad F: Uh, yeah. Yeah, so. Grad E: The {disfmarker} uh, Java {disfmarker} the embedded Bayes {pause} wants to take input {disfmarker} uh, uh, a Bayes - net {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that's output by the Java Bayes for the {disfmarker} into the, uh, E Bayes input. Grad D: Mmm. Grad F: Actually, maybe I could try, like, emailing the guy and see if he has any something already. Professor C: Sure. Grad E: Hmm. Grad F: That'd be weird, that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in {disfmarker} Grad D: But that's some sort of conversion program? Grad F: Yeah. Yeah. And put them into different {pause} formats. Oh {disfmarker} Grad D: I think you should demand things from him. Grad F: Yep, he could do that, too. Professor C: He charges so much. Right. Grad D: Yeah. Professor C: No, I think it's a good idea that you may as well ask. Sure. Grad F: Yeah. Grad E: And, um, well {pause} pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list, I would have asked Keith how the" where is X?" {pause} hand parse is standing. Um. {pause} But we'll skip that. Uh, there's good news from Johno. The generation templates are done. Grad D: So the trees {pause} for {disfmarker} the XML trees for the {disfmarker} for the gene for the synthesizer are written. So I just need to {pause} do the, uh {disfmarker} write a new set of {pause} tree combining rules. But I think those'll be pretty similar to the old ones. So. Just gonna be {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} Professor C: Oh! You were gonna send me a note about hiring {disfmarker} Grad E: Yes. Professor C: I didn't finish the sentence but he understood it. Grad D: I know what he's talking about. Professor C: OK. But Nancy doesn't. Grad B: Hiring somebody. Grad E: We {disfmarker} w um {disfmarker} Grad D: The guy. Grad E: OK, so {pause} natural language generation {pause} produces not a {disfmarker} just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but, a {pause} surface string with a syntax tree that's fed into a concept - to - speech. Professor C: No. Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Better. Grad E: Now and this concept - to - speech module has {pause} certain rules on how {pause} if you get the following syntactic structure, how to map this onto prosodic rules. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Sure. Mm - hmm. Grad E: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite uh, the German concept uh syntax - to - prosody rules {disfmarker} Grad B: I didn't know she spoke German. Grad E: No, she doesn't. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: But she speaks English. Grad B: Oh. Rewrite the German ones into English. OK, got it. Grad E: Into English. And um therefore {pause} the, uh {disfmarker} if it's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week, then {pause} she'll do that. Grad B: OK, got it. Grad D: What {pause} language is that {pause} written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me? Grad E: Yeah. That's the LISP - type scheme. Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme? I hope? Grad E: No, I {disfmarker} My guess is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I asked for a commented version of that file? If we get that, then it's {pause} doable, even without getting into it, even though the Scheme li uh, stuff is really well documented in the {pause} Festival. Grad D: Well, I guess if you're not used to functional programming, Scheme can be completely incomprehensible. Cuz, there's no {disfmarker} Like {pause} there's lots of unnamed functions Professor C: Syntax. Yeah. Grad D: and {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad D: You know? Professor C: Anyway, it {disfmarker} We'll sort this out. Um. But anyway, send me the note and then I'll - I'll check with, uh, Morgan on the money. I {disfmarker} I don't anticipate any problem but we have to {pause} ask. Oh, so this was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} You know, on the generation thing, um if {comment} sh y she's really going to do that, then we should be able to get prosody as well. So it'll say it's nonsense with perfect intonation. Grad D: Are we gonna {disfmarker} Can we change the voice of the {disfmarker} of the thing, because right now the voice sounds like a murderer. Grad E: Yep. We ha we have to change the voice. Grad B: Wh - Which one? Grad D: The {disfmarker} the little Smarticus {disfmarker} Smarticus sounds like a murderer. Grad B: Oh. Grad A: That's good to know. Grad D:" I have your reservations." Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair. Grad E: It is {disfmarker} Uh, we have the choice between the, uh, usual Festival voices, which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they're really bad. Grad B: Festival? Professor C: It's the name of some program, Grad B: Oh, oh. Got it. OK. Professor C: the {disfmarker} the synthesizer. Grad A: You know, the usual party voices. Grad E: But, um Grad B: Yeah, I know. That doesn't sound, {vocalsound} exactly right either. Grad E: OGI has, uh, crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we're going to use {pause} that. We can still, um, d agree on a gender, if we want. So we still have male or female. Grad B: I think {disfmarker} Well, let's just pick whatever sounds best. Grad E: Hmm? Grad B: Whatever sounds best. Grad E: Uh. Grad B: Unfortunately, probably male voices, a bit more research on. Grad D: Does OGI stand for {disfmarker}? {comment} Original German Institute? Professor C: Orego Grad B: So. Professor C: Or Grad E: Oregon. Grad B: Oregon Graduate Insti Professor C: Oregon @ @ {comment} Graduate Institute Grad D: Oh. Grad E: Try Oregon. Grad D: Ah. Professor C: It turns out there's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group. Grad B: Hmm! Professor C: Very long. Grad D: Hmm! Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: In fact, there's this guy who's basically got a joint appointment, Hynek {pause} Hermansky. He's - spends a fair amount of time here. Anyway. Leave it. Won't be a problem. Grad E: OK. And it's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to, um learn that as of twenty minutes ago, David and I, per accident, uh managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the {disfmarker} uh, ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from {pause} one on my laptop to three. Grad B: Mmm, that's good. Grad D: How was this by accident? Grad B: Yeah, I know. Tha - that's the part I didn't understand. Grad E: Um, I suggested to try something that was really kind of {disfmarker} even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked, but it worked. Grad B: Hmm! Grad E: Intuition. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Will it work again, Grad E: Maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing. Grad B: or {disfmarker}? Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: OK. And, um, we'll never found out why. It - it's just like why {disfmarker} why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working? Grad A: Hmm! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer, right? Grad E: Which Grad A: You know, {comment} and it's cool, it works out that way. Grad E: Hmm. So, {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again. Yeah, that would work. OK. Um {disfmarker} I was gonna ask you where something is and what we know about that. Grad A: Where {disfmarker} OK. Grad B: Where the" where is" construction is. Grad A: What {disfmarker} what thing is this? Grad E: Where is X? Grad A: OK. Grad E: Oh, but by {disfmarker} Uh, we can ask, uh, did you get to read all four hundred words? Professor C: I did. Grad E: Was it OK? Was it? Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: I {disfmarker} I wa I was looking at it. It doesn't follow logically. It doesn't {disfmarker} The first paragraph doesn't seem to have any link to the second paragraph. Grad A: And so on. Professor C: Yeah. Grad D: Yeah. Grad E: Hmm. That {disfmarker} Professor C: You know, i Yeah, it {disfmarker} Grad D: Each paragraph is good, though. I li Professor C: I i Yeah. Well, it it's fine. Grad A: It was written by committee. Professor C: Anyway. Um. But c the meeting looks like it's, it's gonna be good. So. I think it's uh {disfmarker} Grad E: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I didn't know about it until {pause} Robert told me, like, Professor C: Yeah, I {disfmarker} I ra I ran across it in {disfmarker} I don't even know where, you know {disfmarker} some just {disfmarker} some weird place. And, uh, yeah, I I'm surprised I didn't know about it Grad B: Y yeah. Well, yeah. I was like, why didn't Dan tell me? Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers, an Grad A: Right. Professor C: Right, or some Anyway. So {disfmarker} But anyway, yeah. I so I {disfmarker} I did see that. Oh wha Yeah. Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler, who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the, um, {disfmarker} you know, using these structured belief - nets and stuff but {pause} starting in August, that she's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we'll figure out a way for you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} you to get seriously connected with, um their group. So that's, uh {disfmarker} looks pretty good. And um {disfmarker} Yeah, I'll say it now. So, um {disfmarker} And it looks to me like {comment} we're now at a good point to do something {disfmarker} start working on something really hard. We've been so far working on things that are easy. Grad A: Oh! Professor C: Uh, w Which is {comment} mental spaces and uh {disfmarker} and - or {disfmarker} Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: It's a hard puzzle. But the other part of it is the way they connect to these, uh, probabilistic relational models. So {pause} there's all the problems that the linguists know about, about mental spaces, and the cognitive linguists know about, but then there's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets. Uh, which they call dynamic {disfmarker} they incorrectly call dynamic belief - nets. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: So there's a term" dynamic belief - net" , doesn't mean that. It means time slices. And Srini used those and people use them. Uh. But one of the things I w would like to do over the next, uh, month, it may take more, {comment} is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and uh sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be, but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences. So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models, they're set up, in principle, so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other, and all that sort of stuff, so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate {pause} uh, belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate. But that's g that's, as far as I can tell, it's {disfmarker} it's putting together two real hard problems. One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and {disfmarker} and when you have a certain, uh, construction, that implies certain couplings and other couplings, you know, between let's say between the past and the present, or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it's got um, let's say one in {disfmarker} in, you know, different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs, or any of these other ones of {disfmarker} of multiple models. So um you know, in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both, uh, in a way we that, you know, th hopefully turns out to be consistent, so that the {disfmarker} Um. And sometimes it's actually easier to solve two hard problems than one Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: because they constrain each other. I mean if you've got huge ra huge range of possible choices um {disfmarker} We'll see. But anyway, so that's, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Oh yeah, like uh, I solved the {disfmarker} the problem of um {disfmarker} we were talking about how do you {disfmarker} various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote" count as a noun phrase" , you know, occur as an argument of a higher construction, but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Um, and it would take a really long time to explain it now, but I'm about to write it up this evening. I solved that at the same time as" how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase" to get something like" I the kicked dog" . Um. Did it {disfmarker} did it at once. Professor C: That's great. Grad A: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe it'll be a similar thing. Grad B: Cool. Professor C: Yeah. No, I know, I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of {disfmarker} of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some, uh, relatively clean rules, they're just not context - free trees. Grad A: Right. Professor C: And if we {disfmarker} if the formalism is {disfmarker} is good, then we should be able to have, you know, sort of moderate scale thing. And that by the way is {disfmarker} is, Keith, what I encouraged George to be talking with you about. Not the formalism yet Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: but the phenomena. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: The p And {disfmarker} Oh, another thing, um there was this, uh thing that Nancy agreed to in a {disfmarker} in a weak moment this morning that Grad A: Hmm! Grad B: I was really strong. Grad A: Hmm! Grad F: Hmm. Professor C: Uh, sorry. In a {disfmarker} in a friendly moment. Grad A: Same thing. Professor C: Anyway, uh, that we were {disfmarker} that we're gonna try to get a uh, first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK? Probably skipping the mental spaces part. Grad B: Seems {disfmarker} Grad A: Right. I do. Professor C: Uh, just trying to write up essentially what {disfmarker} what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at. We've talked about it, but only the innermost inner group currently, uh, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Knows. Professor C: knows, uh Grad A: OK. Grad B: Yeah, and {disfmarker} and not even all of them really do. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: But like {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad A: There's {disfmarker} The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno Professor C: Well that that {disfmarker} yeah th there's one of the advantages of a document, right? , Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is that it actually transfers from head to head. Grad B: Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So anyway. So um {disfmarker} Grad B: Ah, communication! Professor C: Huh? Grad B: Communication. Grad A: Hunh! Professor C: Communication, documentation and stuff. Anyway, so, uh, with a little luck {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} l let's, let's have that as a goal anyway. Grad A: So, uh, what was the date there? Professor C: And {disfmarker} Grad A: Monday or {disfmarker}? It's a Friday. Professor C: No, no, no. No, w uh {disfmarker} we're talking about a week fr e end of next week. Grad A: End of next week. Grad B: But, uh, but {disfmarker} but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th Grad A: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah. Grad B: I mean. Anyway, w let's talk separately about how t Grad A: Yeah, I have a busy weekend but after that {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Yeah, gung - ho. Professor C: OK. Yeah, so {disfmarker} so someti sometime next week. Grad A: Great, Professor C: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that's fine. Grad A: Mm - hmm. OK. Professor C: You know, if you say we're {disfmarker} we're dump {disfmarker} dump {disfmarker} dump. There's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet {disfmarker} that, that's just fine. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: But at {disfmarker} at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now. Professor C: Right, t t if {disfmarker} to the extent that we have it, let's write it Grad A: OK. Professor C: and to the extent we don't, let's find out what we need to do. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So, uh Grad E: Can we {disfmarker}? {vocalsound} Is it worth {pause} thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain, that involves a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a decent mental {pause} space shift {pause} or setting up {disfmarker} Professor C: I think it is, but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with" where is the Powder - Tower?" or whatever Grad B: Right. Grad A: Well. Uh, what was supposed to happen? I've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones, so, um, you know, I don't have a write - up of {disfmarker} or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were {disfmarker} Grad E: Hmm, yeah. I think {disfmarker} I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative {pause} paths that we {disfmarker} two alternative ways of representing it. One is sort of a {disfmarker} has a um Grad A: It's gone. Grad E: um Grad A: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic. Grad B: One of them was th Right. Grad E: or comes {disfmarker} Grad B: Right. Grad E: is resolved later. Yeah. Grad A: I think it has to be the {disfmarker} the second case. Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Um, so d'you {disfmarker} Is it clear what we're talking about here? Grad B: I agree. Grad A: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path. Professor C: Uh {disfmarker} Grad B: So you might be {disfmarker} yeah, y And asking for directions. Grad E: It's {disfmarker} Grad A: Um or {disfmarker} or whether the construction semantically, uh, is clearly only asking for location Grad E: Should we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} Grad A: but pragmatically that's construed as meaning" tell me how to get there" . Professor C: Mm - hmm. Yep. Grad E: So {pause} assume these are two, uh, nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Grad E: So these are either true or false and it's also just true {pause} or false. If we encounter a phrase such as" where is X?" , should that set this to true and this to true, and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely? Um, or should it just activate this, have this be false, and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means {disfmarker}? Professor C: Uh w that's a s Grad B: Slightly different. Professor C: OK, so that's a {disfmarker} that's a separate issue. Grad A: OK. Professor C: So I a I I th I agree with you that, um, it's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every uh, pragmatic reading, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: although there are some that will need to be there. Grad B: Good. Mm - hmm. Grad A: Right. Grad B: Right. Professor C: I mean, there there's some that {disfmarker} Grad B: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one. Professor C: You can't do that either. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. But, you know, c um {disfmarker} almost certainly" can you pass the salt" is a construction worth noting that there is this th this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Request. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Grad B: Very yeah. Grad A: So right, this one is maybe in the gray area. Is it {disfmarker} is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one {disfmarker} you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever. Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: Ri Yeah. Grad E: One Or in some cases, it's {disfmarker} it's quite definitely Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: s so that you just know {disfmarker} wanna know where it is. Grad A: Yeah. Well the question is basically, is this conventional or conversational implicature? Professor C: Exactly. Yeah. Grad B: Might be, yeah. Professor C: And I guess, see, the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it's more important to know how we would treat {disfmarker} technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B, than it is t to decide A or B r right now. Grad A: OK, right. Grad B: Right. Right. Grad A: Which of that is. {comment} Yeah, OK Grad B: Which one it is. Grad E: Hmm. Grad B: Cuz there will be other k examples that are one way or the other. Right. Professor C: W we know for sure that we have to be able to do both. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So I guess {vocalsound} In the short run, let's {disfmarker} let's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be. Grad A: OK. Grad E: And then the {vocalsound} we had another idea floating around um, which we wanted to, uh, get your input on, and that concerns the {disfmarker} But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it, and that's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML {pause} who is going to be visiting us, uh, the week before, uh, August and a little bit into August. And she would like to {vocalsound} apply the {pause} ontology that is, um {vocalsound} being crafted at EML. That's not the one I sent you. The one I sent you was from GMD, out of a European CRUMPET. Professor C: It was terrible. Grad E: Agreed. Um, and one of the reas one of the {disfmarker} those ideas was, so, back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history {pause} and it said the word" admission fee" was uh, mentioned um, it's more likely that the person actually wants to enter {pause} than just take a picture of it from the outside. Now what could imagine {disfmarker} to, you know, have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history, yeah? That's the really stupid way. Then there is the {pause} really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the, uh, middle way that I'm suggesting and that is you {disfmarker} you get X, which is whatever, the castle. The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours, that they have admission fees, they have whatever. And then, this is {disfmarker} We go via a thesaurus and look up {pause} certain linguistic surface structures {pause} that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity. We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side. But Keith suggested that a {disfmarker} a much cleaner way would be {disfmarker} is, you know, to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you {disfmarker} if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before, this just a continues to add up, you know, in th in a {disfmarker} Grad A: So if someone mentions admission f fees, that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what's being talked about. And then when someone asks" where is X?" you've already got the {disfmarker} the Enter schema activated Grad B: Kind of a priming Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: and you're able to {disfmarker} to conclude on it. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: priming a spreading activation Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Yeah. So that's certainly {pause} more {pause} realistic. Grad A: Right. Professor C: I m I mean psychologically. Now technically Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Um Grad D: Well, uh, is it {disfmarker} doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a {disfmarker} a thread, that you know, kept track of ho of the activity of {disfmarker} I mean, cuz it would {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thread would know what nodes {pause} like, needed to be activated, so it could just keep track of {pause} how long it's been since {pause} something's been mentioned, and {pause} automatically load it in. Professor C: Yeah. You could do that. Um. But here's {disfmarker} here's a way {disfmarker} in th in the bl Bayes - net you could {disfmarker} you could think about it this way, that if um {pause} at the time" admissions fee" was mentioned {pause} you could increase the probability {pause} that someone wanted to enter. Grad B: Turn prior on. Grad D: We - yeah {disfmarker} th th that's what I wa I wasn't {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas. I was just {disfmarker} Professor C: Fair enough, OK, but, but, in terms of the c c the current implementation {disfmarker} right? so that um Grad B: It would already be higher in the {pause} context. Professor C: th that th the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the conditional probability that someone {disfmarker} So at the time you mentioned it {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: It's {disfmarker} In some ways it's not as good but it's {pause} the implementation we got. Grad A: Yeah, sure. No, I mean Professor C: We don't have a connectionist implementation. Now {disfmarker} Now my guess is that it's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another {pause} intervening object has been mentioned. Grad B: Yeah, relevance. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: I mean, we could look at dialo this is {disfmarker} Of course the other thing we ha we do is, is we have this data coming Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: which probably will blow all our theories, Grad A: Yeah, right. Professor C: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but skipping that {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but my guess is what {disfmarker} what'll probably will happen, Here's a {disfmarker} here's a proposed design. {comment} is that there're certain constructions which, uh, for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the, uh, standard way that {disfmarker} that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever, but that's sort of the most recent thing. And so it could be that {pause} when another uh, en tourist entity gets mentioned, you Grad B: Renew Professor C: re re essentially re - initiali you know, re - i essentially re - initialize the {pause} state. Grad D: Mmm. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have {disfmarker} uh, you could keep track of what someone was {pause} uh saying about this and that. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: You know," I wanna go {disfmarker} in the morning Grad A:" Here's my plan for today. Professor C: I wanna {disfmarker}" Grad A: Here's my plan for tomorrow." Professor C: Yeah, or {disfmarker} Yeah, in the morning morning I I'm planning t to go shopping, Grad A: hypothetically. Professor C: in the afternoon to the Powder - Tower {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Uh, tal so I'm talking about shopping and then you say, uh, you know, well, um" What's it cost?" or something. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Or {disfmarker} Anyway. So one could well imagine, but not yet. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But I do th think that the {disfmarker} {comment} It'll turn out that it's gonna be {disfmarker} depend pretty much on whether there's been an override. Grad E: Yeah, I mean, if {disfmarker} if you ask" how much does a train ride and {disfmarker} and cinema around the vineyards cost?" and then somebody tells you it's sixty dollars and then you say" OK How much is, uh {disfmarker} I would like to {pause} visit the {disfmarker}" {vocalsound} whatever, something completely different," then I go to, you know, Point Reyes" , Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: it {disfmarker} it's not more likely that you want to enter anything, but it's, as a matter of fact, a complete rejection of entering by doing that. Professor C: Right. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Right. Grad B: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something, it's only for that particular {disfmarker} It's relational, right? It's only for that particular object. Professor C: Yeah, I th th Yeah. Well, and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the simple idea is that it's on it's only for m for the current uh, tourist e entity of instre interest. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Grad E: Yeah. But that's {disfmarker} I mean this {disfmarker} this function, so, has the current object been mentioned in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} with a question about {disfmarker} concerning its {disfmarker} Professor C: No, no. It's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} It goes the other d it goes in the other direction. Is {disfmarker} When th When the {disfmarker} this is mentioned, {pause} the uh probability of {disfmarker} of, let's say, entering changes Grad B: Of that object. For {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Professor C: changes. Grad B: Right. Grad D: You could just hav uh, just basically, ob it {disfmarker} It observes an {disfmarker} er, it sets the {disfmarker} a node for" entered" or" true" or something, Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh {disfmarker} But I think Ro - Robert's right, that to determine that, OK? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus Grad D:" discourse enter" . Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} So, if the issue is, if {disfmarker} so now th this construction has been matched and you say" OK. Does this actually have any implications for our decisions?" Then there's another piece of code {vocalsound} that presumably {pause} does that computation. Grad B: So, sort of forward chaining in a way, rather than {pause} backward. Professor C: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: OK. Professor C: But {disfmarker} but what's Robert's saying is {disfmarker} is, and I think he's right, {comment} is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all {disfmarker} you know, all the wo Uh maybe. I'll have to think about that. Grad B: Hmm. Professor C: I don't know. I mean it {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} I can thi I can think of arguments in either direction on that. But somehow you want to do it. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Well, it's just another, sort of, construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the {pause} probabilities, and - or {disfmarker} Grad B: Guess it's like {disfmarker} I g The other thing is, whether you have a m m user model that has, you know, whatever, a current plan, whatever, plans that had been discussed, and I don't know, I mean {disfmarker} Grad D: What {disfmarker} uh, what's the argument for putting it in the construction? Is it just that {pause} the s synonym selection is better, or {disfmarker}? Professor C: Oh, wel Well, the ar the {disfmarker} The argument is that you're gonna have the {disfmarker} If you've recognized the word, you've recognized the word, which means you have a lexical construction for it, so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it's a uh, you know, thirty percent increase in probability of entering. You {disfmarker} So you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could invert {disfmarker} invert the whole thing, so you s you tag that information on to {pause} the lexicon Grad D: Mmm. Oh, I see. Professor C: since you had to recognize it anyway. That {disfmarker} that's the argument in the other direction. at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} Yeah, and this is {disfmarker} Grad E: Even though uh the lexical construction itself {disfmarker} out {disfmarker} out of context, uh, won't do it. I mean, y you have to keep track whether the person says Grad B: Yeah. Grad E:" But I but I'm not interested in the opening times" is sort of a more a V type. Professor C: Yeah there's, yeah ther there's that as well. Grad E: Yep. Hmm. So. But, we'll {disfmarker} uh, we have time to {disfmarker} This is a s just a sidetrack, but uh I think it's also something that people have not done before, is um, sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of, uh, inferences, on whether anything relevant to the current something has been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, has crept up in the dialogue history already, or not. And, um I have the, uh {disfmarker} If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom, I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there. Professor C: Good. OK. {comment} {vocalsound} Well, this {disfmarker} this is highly relevant to someone's thesis. Grad E: Yes, um. That's {disfmarker} uh, I'm {disfmarker} I'm keeping on good terms with Jan. Professor C: You've noticed that. OK. Grad E: Yeah. Professor C: So the point is, it's very likely that Robert's thesis is going to be along these lines, Grad B: Oh, s Professor C: and the local rules are if it's your thesis, you get to decide how it's done. OK. So if, you know {disfmarker} if this is {disfmarker} seriously, if this becomes part of your thesis, you can say, hey we're gonna do it this way, that's the way it's done. Grad E: Mmm. Grad B: Yay, it's not me. It's always me when it's someone's thesis. Professor C: No, no, no! No, no. We've got a lot {disfmarker} we've got a lot of theses going. Grad A: There's a few of us around now. Grad B: Now it's not. Yay! I know it is. Professor C: Yeah. Right. Grad E: Well, let's {disfmarker} let's talk after Friday the twenty - ninth. Then we'll see how f f Professor C: Right. So h he's got a th he's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor. Grad B: Yeah, he said he's gonna f finish his thesis by then. Grad A: Oh yeah. Grad E: Yeah. I should try to finish it by then. Yeah. Professor C: Oh, right. Grad E: So. Professor C: Um. Yeah. So I think {pause} in fact, That's the other thing. uh, this is {disfmarker} this is, speaking of hard problems, {comment} this is a very good time um, to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and {disfmarker} you know, where c where the construction per - se ends {pause} and where construal comes in, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, we've {disfmarker} we've done quite a bit of that. Professor C: cuz this is clearly part of th Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: We've been doing quite a bit of that. Professor C: Huh? Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Well I said. But that's part of what the f Grad B: We have many jobs for you, Ro - Robert. Professor C: Yeah. Well, he's gonna need this. Grad A: Yeah, it seems to always land in your category. Grad B: The conclusion. Grad A: You're lucky. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. So. {vocalsound} Right. So thing {disfmarker} That's part of why we want the formalism, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: is {disfmarker} is because th it is gonna have implicit in it Grad E: Was I? In the room? Grad B: No, you weren't there {pause} on purpose. Like {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Made it much easier to make these decisions. Grad B: Obviously. Grad A: Uh. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Right. Well I {disfmarker} That's tentative. Grad A: Yeah. Right, right, right. Professor C: They aren't decisions, they're ju they're just proposals. Grad A: Yes. {vocalsound} Excuse me. Grad B: No, they're decisions. OK. Professor C: Yeah, that {disfmarker} That's the point, is {disfmarker} is th Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: Constraints. Let's call them constraints, around which one has to {disfmarker} Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: Actually, yeah. {vocalsound} There's a problem with that word, too, though. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Anyway. But so that's that's w Yeah. Grad D: Yeah, but it {disfmarker} he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis. So consequently don't I get to decide then that it's Robert's job? Professor C: No. Grad A: Anyhow. Professor C: Uh. Grad B: Well, I'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center {pause} and say it's Robert's. Like. Grad E: I've always been {pause} completely in favor of consensus decisions, Grad B: I can {disfmarker} Professor C: Right. Grad E: so we'll {disfmarker} we'll find a way. Professor C: Well, we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will, but um Grad B: I haven't. {comment} OK. Professor C: not {disfmarker} Grad E: It {disfmarker} it might even be {pause} interesting then to {pause} say that I should be forced to um, sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the, uh {disfmarker} out of the top hat Professor C: Yes. Grad E: and, um {disfmarker} Grad A: Always good. Professor C: Right. So Grad E: That metaphor is not going anywhere, you know. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: Ri - No. Absolutely. So, uh, wh you had {disfmarker} you know you ha You had done one draft. Grad E: Yes, and, um, it's {disfmarker} Ha - None of that is basically still around, Grad B: I didn't get Professor C: And a another draft OK. Grad E: but it's {disfmarker} Professor C: D i Grad A: That's normal. Professor C: I i Grad B: Oh, I guess it's good I didn't read it. Professor C: I {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I'm shocked. This is the first time I've seen a thesis proposal change. Right. Anyway, uh. {vocalsound} So. Grad B: Really? Professor C: But, yeah, a second {disfmarker} that would be great. So, uh, a sec I mean you're gonna need it anyway. Grad E: Hmm. Professor C: and Grad E: Yeah, and I would like to d discuss it and, you know, get you guys's input Professor C: Right. Grad E: and make it sort of bomb - proof. Grad B: Bomb proof! Professor C: Yep. Grad A: Good. Grad E: Bullet - proof. Grad B: Oh! Oh, OK. Grad E: That's the word I was looking for. Professor C: Both proof. Grad A: Either way. Grad B: Both. Professor C: Right. Grad B: Good luck. {vocalsound} Really. Professor C: Uh So that, so th thi this {disfmarker} I mean, so this is the point, is we {disfmarker} we're going to have to cycle through this, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is {disfmarker} is going to tell us a lot about {pause} what {pause} we think needs to be done by construal. And, um, we oughta be doing it. Grad E: OK. Yeah, we need {disfmarker} we need some {disfmarker} Then we need to make some dates. Um. Grad B: Grad E: Meeting {disfmarker} regular meeting time for the summer, we really haven't found one. We did {pause} Thursdays one for a while. I just talked to Ami. It's - it's a coincidence that he can't do {disfmarker} couldn't do it today {pause} here. Grad B: Usually, he can. Grad E: Usually he has no real constraints. Professor C: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday, Grad E: So {disfmarker} Professor C: cuz of {disfmarker} of, uh Grad E: Yeah, it was just an exception. Professor C: Yeah, you weren't here, but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} s uh, {disfmarker} And so, if that's OK with you, Grad A: It's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon? Professor C: you would {disfmarker} Grad A: OK. It was th off this week, Grad B: Yeah. I always thought it was staying. Professor C: Yeah, it was th Grad A: yeah. Grad B: Yeah, I thought it was just this week that we were changing it. Professor C: Right. Grad E: Mmm. {pause} Yeah. Professor C: OK. Grad E: And, um. How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we {pause} have things to discuss with other people, there {disfmarker} they seem to be s tons of people around. Professor C: The only disadvantage {pause} is that it may interfere with other Grad E: Or {disfmarker} subgroup meetings Professor C: s you know, other {disfmarker} other {disfmarker} No, you {disfmarker} Uh, people in this group connecting with {disfmarker} with Grad B: Those people who {pause} happen to be around. Professor C: those people {pause} who {disfmarker} who might not be around so much. Uh, I don't care. I I uh you know I have no fixed {disfmarker} Grad A: To tell you the truth, I'd rath I'd, I'd {disfmarker} would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day, if possible. But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean. I don't know. Professor C: OK. Grad A: Whatever. Professor C: No, that's fine. I mean that {disfmarker} Grad E: The {disfmarker} I'd like to have them all in one day, Grad A: Yeah, I can understand that. Professor C: Well p Grad E: so package them up and then {disfmarker} Professor C: people {disfmarker} people differ in their tastes in this matter. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I'm neutral. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. {pause} I'm always here anyway, Grad E: It's OK, that {disfmarker} Grad B: so {disfmarker} It doesn't matter. Professor C: Yeah. @ @ That's {disfmarker} Me too. I'm basically {disfmarker} I'm here. So. Grad E: Well, if {disfmarker} one {pause} sort of thing is, this room is taken at {disfmarker} after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: So we have subjects anyway {disfmarker} Except for this week, we have subjects in here. Grad B: Oh. Grad E: That's why it was one. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So we just knew i Grad B: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o'Grad E: No, he can. Grad A: Oh. Grad B: Oh, OK. Grad E: So let's say Thursday one. But for next week, this is a bit late. So {pause} I would suggest that we need to {disfmarker} to talk {disfmarker} Grad B: Oh, oh, OK. Grad E: OK. About the c the {disfmarker} th Grad B: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty? Would that {disfmarker} that be horrible? Grad E: No. Yes. Grad B: Oh really? Grad E: Because, uh, this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan. Grad B: Oh, OK. OK. You didn't tell me that. OK, that's fine. Grad E: And the {disfmarker} s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings {disfmarker} Grad B: OK, OK, OK. OK. {pause} Yeah. Grad E: So. Grad A: Ah, yeah. Professor C: Interesting. So you're proposing that we meet Tuesday. Grad E: How about that? Grad A: Next week. Grad B: Well, we're meeting Tuesday. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I could Grad B: I mean we usually meet Tuesday {disfmarker} or l like, linguists {pause} um, at two. Grad D: Would it {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. Grad B: So. Do you want to meet again here bef Grad D: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at {disfmarker} on Tuesdays? Grad E: I mean w Well, actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday. Grad B: Hhh. {comment} Maybe I do need a Palm Pilot. Grad E: So there's {disfmarker} Nothing's impeding Monday anymore {pause} either. Grad A: That doesn't apply to a {disfmarker} Grad D: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday {disfmarker} er, take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping. Grad E: Get a fresh start {disfmarker} Yeah, that's another s thing. Yeah. But, um. I mean, there are also usually then holidays anyways. I mean {pause} like {disfmarker} {comment} Sometimes {pause} it works out that way. Grad B: Usually? Grad E: So. Hmm! Grad B: Well, I mean, the linguists'meeting {pause} i happens to be at two, but I think that's {disfmarker} I mean. Grad A: That should be relatively flexible be Grad B: pretty flexible, I think. Grad A: Yeah. There's just {pause} sort of the two to four of us. Grad B: So. The multiple meetings Grad A: Right? Yeah. So. Grad B: yeah. Grad A: And, you know, of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room. Grad B: Right. Yeah. Grad A: So, you know, I mean. Grad E: OK, so {pause} l forget about the b the camping thing. So let's {disfmarker} eh, any other problems w w w? But, I suggested Monday. If that's a problem for me then I shouldn't {pause} suggest it. Grad D: Ha - ha - ha. Professor C: OK. Grad E: So. Grad A: Um, all of the proposed times sound fine with me. Grad B: Same here. Grad E: Monday? Professor C: OK, whate I mean {disfmarker} What I think Robert's saying is that Grad A: Earlier in the week Professor C: earlier we {disfmarker} At least for next week, there's a lot of stuff we want to get done, Grad A: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor C: so why don't we plan to meet Monday Grad E: Mmm. Professor C: and {pause} we'll see if we want to meet any more than that. Grad A: OK. Grad B: What time? Grad E: OK. Grad B: At o o o o one, two, three {disfmarker}? Grad E: One, two, three? Three's too late. Professor C: Oh, I i {pause} Yeah, I actually {disfmarker} Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday. Grad E: Two - thirty? OK, two. Professor C: Here I'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday. Grad A: Sure. Sounds great. Uh, so that's the eighteenth. Grad B: You guys will still remind me, right? Grad D: No way! Grad B: Y you'll come and take all the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the headph the good headphones first and then remind me. Grad E: W why do you {disfmarker}? Grad A: Yeah, exactly. Sorry, two PM. Grad E: And Grad B: Why do I have this unless I'm gonna write? Grad E: do I get to see th uh, your formalism before {pause} that? Grad B: Fine. Yes. Uh. Would you like to? Grad E: Mm - hmm. Grad B: OK. I was actually gonna work on it for tomorrow {disfmarker} like this {disfmarker} this weekend. Grad E: I wo I would like {disfmarker} I would sort of {pause} get a {disfmarker} get a notion of what {disfmarker} what you guys have in store for me. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Well m @ @ you know, w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put {disfmarker} This is part of what we can do Monday, if we want. Grad B: Yeah. I OK. Grad A: Alright. Grad B: I mean, I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Professor C: Is some {disfmarker} some version Grad E: OK. Grad B: Yeah, so there was like, you know, m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version, like, everything I know. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: And then, w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know, that {disfmarker} you know, see if they're consistent. Grad A: Yeah. OK. Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. That's f fine with me. Grad A: OK. Grad B: So. I might {disfmarker} I might {disfmarker} um, Grad E: You - y Grad B: s You said you're busy {pause} over th until the weekend, right? Grad A: Yeah, sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show. Grad B: That's fine. So we might continue our email thing Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and that might be fine, too. So, maybe I'll send you some {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, if you have time after this I'll show you the noun phrase thing. Grad B: OK. That would be cool. So. OK, and we'll {disfmarker} You wanna m Grad E: So the idea is on Monday at two we'll {disfmarker} we'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So that's OK for you {disfmarker} Grad E: and do an on - line merging with my construal {pause} ideas. Grad B: Sure, sure. Grad A: Alright. Professor C: OK. Grad B: That's OK. Grad E: So it won't be, like, a for semi - formal presentation of my {pause} proposal. It'll be more like towards {pause} finalizing that proposal. Grad A: OK. Grad B: Cuz then you'll find out more of what we're making you do. Grad E: OK, that's fine. Yep, and then {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Grad D: Hmm, hmm. Grad E: Yikes. Grad A: Oy, {comment} deadlines. Grad B: We'll make a presentation of your propo {comment} of your proposal. Grad E: Perfect. Can you also write it up? Grad B: It's like," this is what we're doing. Professor C: Abso Grad B: And the complement is Robert." Grad E: I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker} I'll send you a style file, right? Grad B: OK. Grad E: You just {disfmarker} Grad B: I already sent you my fi {comment} my bib file. So. Grad E: OK. And, um. Sounds good. Grad A: Someday we also have to {disfmarker} we should probably talk about the other side of the" where is X" construction, which is the issue of, um, how do you simulate questions? What does the simspec look like for a question? Grad E: Yeah. Grad A: Because {pause} it's a little different. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah, now, we we w Grad A: We had to {disfmarker} we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work. Professor C: Great. OK. Yeah. Simspec may need {disfmarker} we may n need to re - name that. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I {disfmarker} Professor C: OK? So let's think of a name for {disfmarker} for whatever the {disfmarker} this intermediate structure is. Oh, we talked about semspec, for" semantic spec specification" Grad A: Mmm. Professor C: and that seems {disfmarker} Um. Grad A: It's more general Professor C: You know, so it's a m minimal change. Grad B: Only have to change one vowel. That's great. Professor C: Yeah. Just {disfmarker} Grad B: All the old like {vocalsound} graphs, Professor C: Right. Grad B: just change the {disfmarker} just, like, mark out the {disfmarker} Grad A: Cool. Professor C: Right, a little substi substi You know, that's what text substitution uh macros are for. Grad A: Yeah. It's good for you. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Anyway, uh, so let's {disfmarker} let's for the moment call it that until we think of something better. Grad A: OK. Professor C: And, yeah, we absolutely need to find {disfmarker} Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there, incl including the questions {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: We didn't {disfmarker} we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in {disfmarker} in uh, the semspec. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about {pause} that, too, which {disfmarker} uh, uh, it's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues, how they map onto this particular one, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {disfmarker} OK, yeah, understood. Professor C: But that's part of the formalism {disfmarker} is got to be uh, how things like that get marked. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: W do you have data, like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You have preliminary {pause} data? Cuz I know, you know, we've been using this one easy sentence and I'm sure you guys have {disfmarker} uh, maybe you are the one who've been looking at {pause} the rest of it {disfmarker} Grad A: Um, I Grad B: it'd {disfmarker} it'd be useful for me, if we want to {pause} have it a little bit more data oriented. Grad A: To tell you the truth, what I've been looking at has not been the data so far, Grad B: Yeah. Mm - hmm {pause} mm - hmm. Grad A: I just sort of said" alright let's see if I can get noun phrases and, uh, major verb co uh, constructions out of the way first." And I have not gotten them out of the way yet. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Surprise. So, um. Grad B: Yeah. Grad A: So, I have not really approached a lot of the data, but I mean obviously like these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the question one, since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that, you know, I ca can try and, um run with that, you know, try and do some of the sentence constructions now. It would make sense. Grad E: OK. Do you wanna run the indefinite pronoun idea past Jerry? Grad B: OK. Grad A: Oh yeah, the basic idea is that um, uh {pause} you know {disfmarker} Uh, {vocalsound} let's see {pause} if I can {pause} formulate this. Grad E: So {pause} Mary fixed the car with a wrench. Grad A: Yeah. Grad E: So you perform the mental sum and then, you know," who fixed the car with a wrench?" You {pause} basically are told, to {disfmarker} to do this In the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} analogously to the way you would do" someone fixed the car with a wrench" . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out {pause} what that, you know, Grad A: Means. Grad E: means, and then {pause} come up with that {disfmarker} so who that someone was. Grad A: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says" and when you're done, tell me who fills that slot" or w you know. Professor C: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So, um. And, you know, this is sort of a nice way to do it, the idea of sort of saying that you treat {disfmarker} from the simulation point of view or whatever {disfmarker} you treat, uh, WH constructions similarly to uh, indefinite pronouns like" someone fixed the car" because {pause} lots of languages, um, have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever, Grad B: Use actually the same one. Grad A: and you just get intonation to tell you that it's a question. So it makes sense Professor C: Alright, which is Grad A: um Professor C: Skolemization. Grad A: Hmm? Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: In {disfmarker} in logic, it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it's actual Huh? Grad B: Right. {vocalsound} Let's put a Skolem {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Skolem constant in, Grad A: Yeah. shko Professor C: What? Grad A: Sure. Grad B: yeah. Yeah. {pause} Right. Grad A: OK. Professor C: That - that's not {disfmarker} that's not saying it's bad, Grad A: Right. Right. No. Of course. Professor C: it's just that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mmm. Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the logicians have {disfmarker} have, uh {disfmarker} Grad A: That's right. It makes sense from that point of view, too, which is actually better. Grad E: come up with this Grad A: So yeah, um. Anyway, but just that kind of thing and we'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on, but Professor C: Good. Grad A: Uh, no, all the focus stuff. We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know, like, what we were talking about {comment} exactly, what the object of study was. Grad B: Um - mmm. Grad A: So. Professor C: Yeah. Well, if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I mean, i part of {disfmarker} of what the exercise is, t by the end of next week, is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet. Grad A: Yeah. Yep. Professor C: That's fine. I mean Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad E: Well, if you {disfmarker} if you do wanna discuss focus {pause} background and then get me into that because {disfmarker} I mean, I wo I w scientifically worked on that for {disfmarker} for almost two years. Grad A: Yeah. OK, then certainly we will. Good. Grad B: Yeah, you should definitely, um be on on that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe by {disfmarker} after Monday we'll {disfmarker} y you can see what things we are and aren't {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. w We should figure out what our questions are, for example, {vocalsound} to ask you. Grad B: Yeah. Yeah. Grad A: So. Grad B: OK. Grad A: OK. Professor C: Wel - then t Hans. Has {disfmarker} I haven't seen Hans Boas? Grad B: He's been around. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Just maybe not today. Professor C: OK. So has he been {disfmarker} been involved with this, or {disfmarker}? Grad B: Eh. with us? Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yeah. Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily, um, Keith and {disfmarker} Keith and me, but um like in th the meeting {disfmarker} I mean, he sort of {disfmarker} I thin like the last meeting we had, I think we were all very much part of it Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: but {pause} um Grad A: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a {pause} devil's advocate type role or something, Grad B: but different perspec Yeah. Grad A: like {pause}" This make {disfmarker} you know, I'm going to pretend I'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this. This makes no sense." And he'll just go off on parts of it which {pause} definitely need fixing Grad B: Right. Grad A: but aren't where we're at right now, so it's Grad B: Like {disfmarker} like what you call certain things, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: which we decided long ago we don't care that much right now. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But in a sense, it's good to know that he {pause} of all people {disfmarker} Professor C: OK. Grad B: you know, like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions, so, you know, he's like a relatively friendly linguist Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: and yet a word like" constraint" causes a lot of problems. And, so. {pause} Right. So. Professor C: OK. This is consistent with um the role I had suggested that he {disfmarker} he play, Grad B: Ah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: OK, which was {pause} that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called" Towards a formal cognitive semantics" which was addressed to these linguists {pause} uh {pause} who haven't been following {pause} this stuff at all. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: So {pause} it could be that he's actually, at some level, thinking about how am I going to {pause} communicate this story {disfmarker} Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Professor C: So, internally, we should just do {pause} whatever works, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: cuz it's hard enough. Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: But {pause} if he g if he turns {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does {pause} connect with as many as possible of the {pause} other linguists in the world um {comment} then {disfmarker} then it becomes important to {pause} use terminology that doesn't make it hard {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: Yeah. Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Sure. Professor C: I mean, it's gonna be plenty hard for {disfmarker} for people to understand it as it is, Grad A: Yeah. Professor C: but y y you don't want to make it worse. Grad A: Yeah. No, right. I mean, tha that role is {disfmarker} is, uh, indispensable Professor C: So. Grad A: but that's not where sort of our heads were at in these meetings. Professor C: Right. Grad A: It was a little strange. Professor C: Yeah, yeah. {disfmarker} No, that's fine. I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him, and I wanted t to get a feeling for that. OK. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Grad A: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly, you know. Professor C: OK. Good. Grad A: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view. Grad B: I think it's good when we're {disfmarker} when we're into data and looking at the {disfmarker} some specific linguistic phenomenon {pause} in {disfmarker} in English or in German, in particular, whatever, that's great, Professor C: Yeah. Grad A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: and Ben and {disfmarker} and Hans are, if {disfmarker} if anything, more {disfmarker} you know, they have more to say than, let's say, I would about some of these things. Professor C: Right. Grad B: But when it's like, well, w how do we capture these things, you know, I think it's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know, who have worried more about the {disfmarker} Grad A: Mm - hmm. Professor C: Well, that's good. That's {disfmarker} I I I think that should be the {disfmarker} the core group Grad B: s Which is fine. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Mm - hmm. Professor C: and {pause} um that's, you know, I think {pause} very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Yes. Yeah. We actually have {disfmarker} I think we have been making progress, Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: and its sort of surprising. Professor C: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I definitely get that impression. Yeah. Grad B: You know, like {disfmarker} Grad A: Yep. Professor C: That's great. Grad B: Yeah. So anyone else would like uh {comment} ruin the balance of {disfmarker} Anyway. Professor C: Well, but {disfmarker} Well. But th th then w then we have to come back to the bigger group. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Right. Professor C: Yeah. {comment} {pause} Great. And then we're gon we're gonna {disfmarker} because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is {pause} actually implementing this stuff? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that. Grad B: Yeah, we could talk tomorrow. I was just gonna say, though, that, for instance, there was {disfmarker} you know, out of a meeting with Johno {pause} came the suggestion that" oh, could it be that the {pause} meaning {pause} constraints really aren't used for selection?" which has sort of been implicit {pause} in the parsing {pause} strategy we talked about. Professor C: Right. Grad B: In which case we w we can just say that they're the effects or the bindings. Which {pause} uh, so far, in terms of like putting up all the constraints as, you know, pushing them into type constraints, the {disfmarker} when I've, you know, propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me {disfmarker} you know, we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work. Right? As long as we allow our type constraints to be reasonably {pause} complex. Professor C: Well, it {disfmarker} Grad B: So {disfmarker} Anyway, to be {disfmarker} to talk about later. Professor C: Yeah, it has to in the sense that you're gonna use them eventu it's {disfmarker} you know, it's sort of a, um, generate and test kind of thing, Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: and if you over - generate then you'll have to do more. I mean, if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use uh, in your initial matching then you'll match some things {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: I mean, I {disfmarker} I d I don't think there's any way that it could completely fail. It {disfmarker} it could be that uh, you wind up {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because {pause} there were just vastly too many parses. You know, exponentially num num many parses. And so th the concern might be that {disfmarker} not that it would totally fail, but that {disfmarker} Grad B: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. That it would still generate too many. {comment} Right? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types, right? Professor C: it would still genera Grad B: Like" conceptually these have to be construed as this, this, and this" might still give us quite a few possibilities Professor C: Yeah. Grad B: that, you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and it certainly helps a lot. Professor C: We don't know, but, yeah. Grad B: I mean, le let's put it that way. So. Professor C: No question. Yeah. And I think it's a {disfmarker} it's a perfectly fine place to start. You know, and say, let let's see how far we can go this way. Grad B: Mm - hmm. {pause} Mm - hmm. Professor C: And, uh {disfmarker} Grad D: Well it definitely makes the problem easier. Professor C: I'm {disfmarker} I'm in favor of that. Uh, cuz I think i I think it's {disfmarker} As you know, I think it's real hard and if w if we {disfmarker} Right. Grad B: So {pause} Friday, Monday Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Monday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: So. OK, that's {disfmarker} Tuesday. Grad A: Yeah. Grad B: Like {disfmarker} {comment} th that's the conclusion. OK. Professor C: Yeah. Grad E: So, you your dance card is {pause} completely filled now? Grad A: Shoot. Grad D: Mm - hmm. Grad B: Yeah, and I have nothing to do this weekend but work. Grad E: Why don't {disfmarker} Grad B: No, that's not really true, Grad A: Bummer. Grad B: but like {disfmarker} Grad D: What about {disfmarker} What about DDR? Grad B: It's almost true. Grad F: Grad B: Oh, I don't have it this weekend, so, tsk {comment} don't have to worry about that. Grad D: Mmm. Professor C: DDR, he asked? Grad B: Speaking of dance, Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I'm {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker} it's like a game, but it's for, like, dancing. Hard to {disfmarker} It's like karaoke, but for dancing, and they tell you what {disfmarker} It's amazing. It's so much fun. Yeah, it's so good. My friend has a home version and he brought it over, and we are so into it. It's so amazing. Well, y you know of it? I i i it's one of your hobbies? It's great exercise, I must say. I can't wait to hear this. Uh - huh. Oh, definitely. They have, like, places {disfmarker} instead of like {disfmarker} Yeah, instead of karaoke bars now that have, like, DDR, like {disfmarker} Yeah, yeah, I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend, who's like" Oh, well, I can bring over the DDR if you want." Oh, oh, Dance Dance Revolution {disfmarker} OK. He actually brought a clone called Stepping Selection, but it's just as good. So. Anyw

Several technical matters are being resolved: a conversion program is being written for data to be translated between XML and the Java Embedded-Bayes notation; the language generation templates are now available for the english version of the SmartKom system; SmartKom now works on three different machines at ICSI. On the other hand, future collaboration on belief-nets has already been agreed with another research group. The construction analysis and formalism are also progressing. Several issues that have been dealt with were mentioned during the meeting: indefinite pronouns and wh-questions, noun-phrase structure, etc. This analysis is being done with the help of a linguist, who often provides different perspectives to methods and terminology.

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What are the functions and characters discussed by the group that a remote control should incorporate? Project Manager: Mm-hmm? Okay. Ooh. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So we're'kay? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No. I dunno where to put it'cause the {disfmarker} Okay. Could you s take it off? {gap}. Marketing: Is that alright? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Keeps coming off.'S fiddly. Project Manager: Hmm. {gap} Marketing: {vocalsound} Right. Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start? Does anybody know? Marketing: Oh, another one. Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Oh okay, right. Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay. Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound} {gap}. Hmm. Okay, just hang on a second everybody. I haven't actually looked at this yet. Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah. Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker} Marketing: Very nice. Project Manager: I haven't looked at it, but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens. If you're all ready. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda? Opening, acquaintance, tool training and project plan, discussion and then closing. Project aim is a new remote control. It's original, uh trendy and it's user-friendly. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Project method, functional design, individual work, another meeting, conceptual design, individual work, and a meeting of details design, individual work and a meeting. Tool training. Try out the whiteboard, every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer, would you like to go first? Industrial Designer: Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, why don't you just c, I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt? Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Clip {gap}. Project Manager: Or put'em in your pocket, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} okay. So my favourite animal {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, what's your favourite animal? Industrial Designer:'Kay um {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: Is it rude? Marketing: It's an elephant. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: That's a very good elephant. User Interface: The back end of an elephant. Marketing: Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to draw that well. {vocalsound} Project Manager:'Kay, and you want to write up on there, it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal. Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay, it's big, it's got a great memory. Marketing: Does it? Oh. Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory, we say an elephant never forgets. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me. Project Manager: Okay. Wonderful, well done. Industrial Designer: Nice animal. Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off? Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next? User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep, sure. Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is. User Interface:'Kay, my favourite animal, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh let's see. Marketing: Oh. User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before. Marketing: It's {disfmarker} User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound}, Project Manager: No. Marketing: A what? User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound}. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite? Marketing: How {gap}. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie. Marketing: No. User Interface: You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, well done. Marketing: Great. Me? Project Manager: Yeah. Miss mar Miss Marketing? Marketing: Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work. User Interface: There {gap} go. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw. Can I just draw the face? Project Manager: Um yeah, I think you can just draw the face, but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ooh. It's a cat. Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat. Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail. Project Manager: Okay, do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Why? Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it? Marketing: Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker} Project Manager: Wow, so they're kinda spiritual. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So, that's why I like cats. Project Manager: Well done. Marketing: There we are, that's me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, I don't actually have a favourite animal, Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really? Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} no User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: A prairie dog? Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel? Project Manager: That's exactly what it is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say. User Interface: Yeah, that's pretty good. Project Manager: Okay, well, you got it's a s It's a squirrel, and I like them, because they're cute and stupid. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Very good. Marketing: Ah. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Right. Okay, so, I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay, project finance, selling price twenty five Euros, profit aim fifty million Euros. Marketing: Market range internationally sold. Project Manager: Yeah. Production cost, ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make. Marketing: Ah right okay. Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control, so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes. {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve. {vocalsound} User Interface: So I think before we close uh, we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: S Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting, we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: oh okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, I think this is just the preliminary, get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe. Project Manager: Okay. Right, who's got experiences with remote controls then? Pretty much everybody. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we've all got {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make? Marketing: Yeah. Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager:'Kay um. Marketing: Well. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: T Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like? {vocalsound} Um. Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker} Marketing: Medium. User Interface: Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas, I mean, you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player, or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff. User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something. Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah User Interface: Mm. Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager:'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh, I mean, how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much? Marketing: Twelve fifty. Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty. {vocalsound} User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit. Marketing: Each. Project Manager: Per unit, yeah. User Interface: Cost. Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well at the moment we could, wa I mean we {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah. Marketing: Guess {disfmarker} Project Manager:'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like, and then after we after we've found out what we can like, some different ideas, we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not. Industrial Designer: Right. Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um. Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out, and then you have another one, you slide it out. Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Marketing: {gap} have slides. And then it all comes compact Project Manager: Okay, that's {gap}. Marketing: into one. So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner, and um into one basically. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Th that's an idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So you just flip them out. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff, and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel, program plus and {vocalsound} minus, and the just the mute button, for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated. Project Manager: One side for kids, one side for adults. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well, you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button. User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though,'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it. Industrial Designer: No, but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Like it {gap} User Interface: Oh okay. Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone, something like that maybe. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: That would be cool. Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons, or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe. Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um, oh we've got five minutes left. Industrial Designer: Start breaking up. Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay. Marketing: Okay. Um. Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there. User Interface: Yeah, we should uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap}. User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design, what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface, but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_, but also devices connected to the to the T_V_, I mean, be able to operate Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: D_V_D_ players, things like that. Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't, we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control, that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_, but it's just a really good, nice one. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Right. Project Manager: What do you reckon? See'cause, {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make. User Interface: Yeah, I mean {gap}. Yeah, that's true, maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote, and have it be um Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker. User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: uh simple to use, and looks decent and {disfmarker} Project Manager: May w you know, maybe even {disfmarker} Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker} Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker} User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote, like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool. User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or, I dunno, something special. User Interface: Yeah, no I think you're right. Yeah, rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker} Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker} User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah,'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote, doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once, but you know, that's {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well, but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing,'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway, like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach, and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh, the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes, so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something. Project Manager: Okay, like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it. So make it {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, it's gotta be sellable. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true what you were saying, I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function, it can just have a lock function, so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them, I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Um alright, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so we've got some ideas, we've got um {disfmarker} User Interface: I guess that's good good for now. Project Manager: Let's move on. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Oops, let's close that. Next meeting, uh okay. Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for? Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah ri okay. {gap} these are requirement specification. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm. Marketing: And I'm marketing. Project Manager: Yeah, there you go. {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer, that's that's User Interface: That's me. Okay. Project Manager: that's you, so you gotta {gap} you go, you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need. Um. User Interface: Right. Right. Project Manager: Industrial Designer, you are the one {gap}, you know, you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in, I guess so, um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box, somehow. Industrial Designer: Mm. Har how it works an Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification. Project Manager: User requirements specifications. Marketing: So what the user requires Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap, because {disfmarker} Marketing: in a remote. Project Manager: Right, okay, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap. Marketing: I guess that's what it says. Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just, I think, you just double up, you know, you {disfmarker} working together. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research, see what people want in a remote, what buttons are used more often, and s stuff like that. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, we've been warned to finish the meeting now. Okay. Okay everyone, well done. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Good meeting. User Interface: Alright, see you in thirty minutes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {vocalsound}, do we take these off? Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}

Firstly the group confirmed that their target is a TV remote control. Marketing expects the control to be produced in medium size. User Interface indicated that the control should have a simple practical interface, without a great amount of buttons. Project Manager intended to relate the control with other devices like DVD, HI-FI, video, etc. And the team agreed on the inexpensiveness of the control.

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What is the problem concerning feasibility? Project Manager: Mm-hmm? Okay. Ooh. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So we're'kay? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No. I dunno where to put it'cause the {disfmarker} Okay. Could you s take it off? {gap}. Marketing: Is that alright? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Keeps coming off.'S fiddly. Project Manager: Hmm. {gap} Marketing: {vocalsound} Right. Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start? Does anybody know? Marketing: Oh, another one. Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Oh okay, right. Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay. Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound} {gap}. Hmm. Okay, just hang on a second everybody. I haven't actually looked at this yet. Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah. Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker} Marketing: Very nice. Project Manager: I haven't looked at it, but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens. If you're all ready. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda? Opening, acquaintance, tool training and project plan, discussion and then closing. Project aim is a new remote control. It's original, uh trendy and it's user-friendly. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Project method, functional design, individual work, another meeting, conceptual design, individual work, and a meeting of details design, individual work and a meeting. Tool training. Try out the whiteboard, every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer, would you like to go first? Industrial Designer: Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, why don't you just c, I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt? Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Clip {gap}. Project Manager: Or put'em in your pocket, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} okay. So my favourite animal {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, what's your favourite animal? Industrial Designer:'Kay um {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: Is it rude? Marketing: It's an elephant. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: That's a very good elephant. User Interface: The back end of an elephant. Marketing: Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to draw that well. {vocalsound} Project Manager:'Kay, and you want to write up on there, it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal. Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay, it's big, it's got a great memory. Marketing: Does it? Oh. Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory, we say an elephant never forgets. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me. Project Manager: Okay. Wonderful, well done. Industrial Designer: Nice animal. Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off? Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next? User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep, sure. Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is. User Interface:'Kay, my favourite animal, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh let's see. Marketing: Oh. User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before. Marketing: It's {disfmarker} User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound}, Project Manager: No. Marketing: A what? User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound}. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite? Marketing: How {gap}. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie. Marketing: No. User Interface: You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, well done. Marketing: Great. Me? Project Manager: Yeah. Miss mar Miss Marketing? Marketing: Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work. User Interface: There {gap} go. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw. Can I just draw the face? Project Manager: Um yeah, I think you can just draw the face, but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ooh. It's a cat. Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat. Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail. Project Manager: Okay, do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Why? Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it? Marketing: Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker} Project Manager: Wow, so they're kinda spiritual. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So, that's why I like cats. Project Manager: Well done. Marketing: There we are, that's me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, I don't actually have a favourite animal, Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really? Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} no User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: A prairie dog? Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel? Project Manager: That's exactly what it is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say. User Interface: Yeah, that's pretty good. Project Manager: Okay, well, you got it's a s It's a squirrel, and I like them, because they're cute and stupid. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Very good. Marketing: Ah. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Right. Okay, so, I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay, project finance, selling price twenty five Euros, profit aim fifty million Euros. Marketing: Market range internationally sold. Project Manager: Yeah. Production cost, ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make. Marketing: Ah right okay. Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control, so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes. {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve. {vocalsound} User Interface: So I think before we close uh, we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: S Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting, we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: oh okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, I think this is just the preliminary, get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe. Project Manager: Okay. Right, who's got experiences with remote controls then? Pretty much everybody. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we've all got {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make? Marketing: Yeah. Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager:'Kay um. Marketing: Well. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: T Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like? {vocalsound} Um. Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker} Marketing: Medium. User Interface: Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas, I mean, you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player, or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff. User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something. Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah User Interface: Mm. Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager:'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh, I mean, how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much? Marketing: Twelve fifty. Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty. {vocalsound} User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit. Marketing: Each. Project Manager: Per unit, yeah. User Interface: Cost. Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well at the moment we could, wa I mean we {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah. Marketing: Guess {disfmarker} Project Manager:'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like, and then after we after we've found out what we can like, some different ideas, we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not. Industrial Designer: Right. Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um. Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out, and then you have another one, you slide it out. Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Marketing: {gap} have slides. And then it all comes compact Project Manager: Okay, that's {gap}. Marketing: into one. So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner, and um into one basically. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Th that's an idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So you just flip them out. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff, and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel, program plus and {vocalsound} minus, and the just the mute button, for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated. Project Manager: One side for kids, one side for adults. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well, you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button. User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though,'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it. Industrial Designer: No, but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Like it {gap} User Interface: Oh okay. Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone, something like that maybe. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: That would be cool. Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons, or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe. Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um, oh we've got five minutes left. Industrial Designer: Start breaking up. Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay. Marketing: Okay. Um. Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there. User Interface: Yeah, we should uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap}. User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design, what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface, but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_, but also devices connected to the to the T_V_, I mean, be able to operate Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: D_V_D_ players, things like that. Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't, we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control, that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_, but it's just a really good, nice one. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Right. Project Manager: What do you reckon? See'cause, {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make. User Interface: Yeah, I mean {gap}. Yeah, that's true, maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote, and have it be um Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker. User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: uh simple to use, and looks decent and {disfmarker} Project Manager: May w you know, maybe even {disfmarker} Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker} Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker} User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote, like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool. User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or, I dunno, something special. User Interface: Yeah, no I think you're right. Yeah, rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker} Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker} User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah,'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote, doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once, but you know, that's {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well, but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing,'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway, like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach, and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh, the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes, so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something. Project Manager: Okay, like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it. So make it {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, it's gotta be sellable. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true what you were saying, I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function, it can just have a lock function, so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them, I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Um alright, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so we've got some ideas, we've got um {disfmarker} User Interface: I guess that's good good for now. Project Manager: Let's move on. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Oops, let's close that. Next meeting, uh okay. Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for? Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah ri okay. {gap} these are requirement specification. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm. Marketing: And I'm marketing. Project Manager: Yeah, there you go. {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer, that's that's User Interface: That's me. Okay. Project Manager: that's you, so you gotta {gap} you go, you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need. Um. User Interface: Right. Right. Project Manager: Industrial Designer, you are the one {gap}, you know, you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in, I guess so, um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box, somehow. Industrial Designer: Mm. Har how it works an Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification. Project Manager: User requirements specifications. Marketing: So what the user requires Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap, because {disfmarker} Marketing: in a remote. Project Manager: Right, okay, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap. Marketing: I guess that's what it says. Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just, I think, you just double up, you know, you {disfmarker} working together. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research, see what people want in a remote, what buttons are used more often, and s stuff like that. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, we've been warned to finish the meeting now. Okay. Okay everyone, well done. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Good meeting. User Interface: Alright, see you in thirty minutes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {vocalsound}, do we take these off? Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}

Project Manager had an idea of the insertion of LCD display screen on the remote control, which may possess different pages for different devices. However, they reaffirmed the budget of twenty-five per unit and decided to be realistic with the budget.

tr-sq-739

tr-sq-739_0

Summarize the group's discussion about technical and functional designs of the remote control? Project Manager: Mm-hmm? Okay. Ooh. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So we're'kay? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No. I dunno where to put it'cause the {disfmarker} Okay. Could you s take it off? {gap}. Marketing: Is that alright? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Keeps coming off.'S fiddly. Project Manager: Hmm. {gap} Marketing: {vocalsound} Right. Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start? Does anybody know? Marketing: Oh, another one. Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Oh okay, right. Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay. Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound} {gap}. Hmm. Okay, just hang on a second everybody. I haven't actually looked at this yet. Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah. Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker} Marketing: Very nice. Project Manager: I haven't looked at it, but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens. If you're all ready. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda? Opening, acquaintance, tool training and project plan, discussion and then closing. Project aim is a new remote control. It's original, uh trendy and it's user-friendly. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Project method, functional design, individual work, another meeting, conceptual design, individual work, and a meeting of details design, individual work and a meeting. Tool training. Try out the whiteboard, every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer, would you like to go first? Industrial Designer: Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, why don't you just c, I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt? Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Clip {gap}. Project Manager: Or put'em in your pocket, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} okay. So my favourite animal {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, what's your favourite animal? Industrial Designer:'Kay um {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: Is it rude? Marketing: It's an elephant. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: That's a very good elephant. User Interface: The back end of an elephant. Marketing: Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to draw that well. {vocalsound} Project Manager:'Kay, and you want to write up on there, it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal. Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay, it's big, it's got a great memory. Marketing: Does it? Oh. Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory, we say an elephant never forgets. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me. Project Manager: Okay. Wonderful, well done. Industrial Designer: Nice animal. Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off? Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next? User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep, sure. Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is. User Interface:'Kay, my favourite animal, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh let's see. Marketing: Oh. User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before. Marketing: It's {disfmarker} User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound}, Project Manager: No. Marketing: A what? User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound}. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite? Marketing: How {gap}. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie. Marketing: No. User Interface: You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, well done. Marketing: Great. Me? Project Manager: Yeah. Miss mar Miss Marketing? Marketing: Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work. User Interface: There {gap} go. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw. Can I just draw the face? Project Manager: Um yeah, I think you can just draw the face, but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ooh. It's a cat. Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat. Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail. Project Manager: Okay, do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Why? Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it? Marketing: Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker} Project Manager: Wow, so they're kinda spiritual. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So, that's why I like cats. Project Manager: Well done. Marketing: There we are, that's me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, I don't actually have a favourite animal, Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really? Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} no User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: A prairie dog? Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel? Project Manager: That's exactly what it is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say. User Interface: Yeah, that's pretty good. Project Manager: Okay, well, you got it's a s It's a squirrel, and I like them, because they're cute and stupid. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Very good. Marketing: Ah. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Right. Okay, so, I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay, project finance, selling price twenty five Euros, profit aim fifty million Euros. Marketing: Market range internationally sold. Project Manager: Yeah. Production cost, ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make. Marketing: Ah right okay. Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control, so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes. {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve. {vocalsound} User Interface: So I think before we close uh, we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: S Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting, we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: oh okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, I think this is just the preliminary, get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe. Project Manager: Okay. Right, who's got experiences with remote controls then? Pretty much everybody. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we've all got {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make? Marketing: Yeah. Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager:'Kay um. Marketing: Well. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: T Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like? {vocalsound} Um. Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker} Marketing: Medium. User Interface: Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas, I mean, you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player, or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff. User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something. Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah User Interface: Mm. Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager:'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh, I mean, how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much? Marketing: Twelve fifty. Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty. {vocalsound} User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit. Marketing: Each. Project Manager: Per unit, yeah. User Interface: Cost. Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well at the moment we could, wa I mean we {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah. Marketing: Guess {disfmarker} Project Manager:'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like, and then after we after we've found out what we can like, some different ideas, we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not. Industrial Designer: Right. Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um. Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out, and then you have another one, you slide it out. Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Marketing: {gap} have slides. And then it all comes compact Project Manager: Okay, that's {gap}. Marketing: into one. So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner, and um into one basically. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Th that's an idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So you just flip them out. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff, and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel, program plus and {vocalsound} minus, and the just the mute button, for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated. Project Manager: One side for kids, one side for adults. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well, you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button. User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though,'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it. Industrial Designer: No, but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Like it {gap} User Interface: Oh okay. Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone, something like that maybe. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: That would be cool. Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons, or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe. Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um, oh we've got five minutes left. Industrial Designer: Start breaking up. Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay. Marketing: Okay. Um. Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there. User Interface: Yeah, we should uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap}. User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design, what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface, but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_, but also devices connected to the to the T_V_, I mean, be able to operate Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: D_V_D_ players, things like that. Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't, we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control, that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_, but it's just a really good, nice one. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Right. Project Manager: What do you reckon? See'cause, {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make. User Interface: Yeah, I mean {gap}. Yeah, that's true, maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote, and have it be um Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker. User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: uh simple to use, and looks decent and {disfmarker} Project Manager: May w you know, maybe even {disfmarker} Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker} Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker} User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote, like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool. User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or, I dunno, something special. User Interface: Yeah, no I think you're right. Yeah, rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker} Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker} User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah,'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote, doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once, but you know, that's {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well, but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing,'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway, like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach, and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh, the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes, so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something. Project Manager: Okay, like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it. So make it {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, it's gotta be sellable. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true what you were saying, I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function, it can just have a lock function, so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them, I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Um alright, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so we've got some ideas, we've got um {disfmarker} User Interface: I guess that's good good for now. Project Manager: Let's move on. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Oops, let's close that. Next meeting, uh okay. Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for? Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah ri okay. {gap} these are requirement specification. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm. Marketing: And I'm marketing. Project Manager: Yeah, there you go. {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer, that's that's User Interface: That's me. Okay. Project Manager: that's you, so you gotta {gap} you go, you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need. Um. User Interface: Right. Right. Project Manager: Industrial Designer, you are the one {gap}, you know, you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in, I guess so, um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box, somehow. Industrial Designer: Mm. Har how it works an Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification. Project Manager: User requirements specifications. Marketing: So what the user requires Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap, because {disfmarker} Marketing: in a remote. Project Manager: Right, okay, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap. Marketing: I guess that's what it says. Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just, I think, you just double up, you know, you {disfmarker} working together. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research, see what people want in a remote, what buttons are used more often, and s stuff like that. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, we've been warned to finish the meeting now. Okay. Okay everyone, well done. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Good meeting. User Interface: Alright, see you in thirty minutes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {vocalsound}, do we take these off? Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}

Marketing believed that an ideal remote control should compress 3-4 different controllers in a thin combination. Users can switch controllers by sliding or flipping. Industrial Designer proposed a two-sided controller and said that he could keep it simple on one side and complicated on the other side.

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What is the disagreement concerning the two-sided remote control? Project Manager: Mm-hmm? Okay. Ooh. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So we're'kay? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No. I dunno where to put it'cause the {disfmarker} Okay. Could you s take it off? {gap}. Marketing: Is that alright? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Keeps coming off.'S fiddly. Project Manager: Hmm. {gap} Marketing: {vocalsound} Right. Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start? Does anybody know? Marketing: Oh, another one. Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Oh okay, right. Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay. Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound} {gap}. Hmm. Okay, just hang on a second everybody. I haven't actually looked at this yet. Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah. Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker} Marketing: Very nice. Project Manager: I haven't looked at it, but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens. If you're all ready. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda? Opening, acquaintance, tool training and project plan, discussion and then closing. Project aim is a new remote control. It's original, uh trendy and it's user-friendly. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Project method, functional design, individual work, another meeting, conceptual design, individual work, and a meeting of details design, individual work and a meeting. Tool training. Try out the whiteboard, every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer, would you like to go first? Industrial Designer: Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, why don't you just c, I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt? Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Clip {gap}. Project Manager: Or put'em in your pocket, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} okay. So my favourite animal {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, what's your favourite animal? Industrial Designer:'Kay um {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: Is it rude? Marketing: It's an elephant. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: That's a very good elephant. User Interface: The back end of an elephant. Marketing: Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to draw that well. {vocalsound} Project Manager:'Kay, and you want to write up on there, it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal. Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay, it's big, it's got a great memory. Marketing: Does it? Oh. Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory, we say an elephant never forgets. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me. Project Manager: Okay. Wonderful, well done. Industrial Designer: Nice animal. Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off? Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next? User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep, sure. Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is. User Interface:'Kay, my favourite animal, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh let's see. Marketing: Oh. User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before. Marketing: It's {disfmarker} User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound}, Project Manager: No. Marketing: A what? User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound}. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite? Marketing: How {gap}. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie. Marketing: No. User Interface: You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, well done. Marketing: Great. Me? Project Manager: Yeah. Miss mar Miss Marketing? Marketing: Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work. User Interface: There {gap} go. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw. Can I just draw the face? Project Manager: Um yeah, I think you can just draw the face, but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ooh. It's a cat. Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat. Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail. Project Manager: Okay, do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Why? Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it? Marketing: Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker} Project Manager: Wow, so they're kinda spiritual. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So, that's why I like cats. Project Manager: Well done. Marketing: There we are, that's me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, I don't actually have a favourite animal, Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really? Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} no User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: A prairie dog? Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel? Project Manager: That's exactly what it is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say. User Interface: Yeah, that's pretty good. Project Manager: Okay, well, you got it's a s It's a squirrel, and I like them, because they're cute and stupid. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Very good. Marketing: Ah. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Right. Okay, so, I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay, project finance, selling price twenty five Euros, profit aim fifty million Euros. Marketing: Market range internationally sold. Project Manager: Yeah. Production cost, ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make. Marketing: Ah right okay. Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control, so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes. {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve. {vocalsound} User Interface: So I think before we close uh, we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: S Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting, we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: oh okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, I think this is just the preliminary, get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe. Project Manager: Okay. Right, who's got experiences with remote controls then? Pretty much everybody. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we've all got {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make? Marketing: Yeah. Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager:'Kay um. Marketing: Well. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: T Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like? {vocalsound} Um. Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker} Marketing: Medium. User Interface: Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas, I mean, you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player, or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff. User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something. Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah User Interface: Mm. Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager:'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh, I mean, how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much? Marketing: Twelve fifty. Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty. {vocalsound} User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit. Marketing: Each. Project Manager: Per unit, yeah. User Interface: Cost. Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well at the moment we could, wa I mean we {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah. Marketing: Guess {disfmarker} Project Manager:'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like, and then after we after we've found out what we can like, some different ideas, we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not. Industrial Designer: Right. Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um. Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out, and then you have another one, you slide it out. Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Marketing: {gap} have slides. And then it all comes compact Project Manager: Okay, that's {gap}. Marketing: into one. So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner, and um into one basically. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Th that's an idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So you just flip them out. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff, and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel, program plus and {vocalsound} minus, and the just the mute button, for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated. Project Manager: One side for kids, one side for adults. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well, you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button. User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though,'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it. Industrial Designer: No, but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Like it {gap} User Interface: Oh okay. Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone, something like that maybe. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: That would be cool. Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons, or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe. Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um, oh we've got five minutes left. Industrial Designer: Start breaking up. Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay. Marketing: Okay. Um. Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there. User Interface: Yeah, we should uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap}. User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design, what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface, but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_, but also devices connected to the to the T_V_, I mean, be able to operate Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: D_V_D_ players, things like that. Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't, we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control, that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_, but it's just a really good, nice one. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Right. Project Manager: What do you reckon? See'cause, {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make. User Interface: Yeah, I mean {gap}. Yeah, that's true, maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote, and have it be um Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker. User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: uh simple to use, and looks decent and {disfmarker} Project Manager: May w you know, maybe even {disfmarker} Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker} Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker} User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote, like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool. User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or, I dunno, something special. User Interface: Yeah, no I think you're right. Yeah, rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker} Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker} User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah,'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote, doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once, but you know, that's {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well, but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing,'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway, like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach, and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh, the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes, so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something. Project Manager: Okay, like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it. So make it {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, it's gotta be sellable. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true what you were saying, I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function, it can just have a lock function, so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them, I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Um alright, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so we've got some ideas, we've got um {disfmarker} User Interface: I guess that's good good for now. Project Manager: Let's move on. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Oops, let's close that. Next meeting, uh okay. Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for? Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah ri okay. {gap} these are requirement specification. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm. Marketing: And I'm marketing. Project Manager: Yeah, there you go. {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer, that's that's User Interface: That's me. Okay. Project Manager: that's you, so you gotta {gap} you go, you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need. Um. User Interface: Right. Right. Project Manager: Industrial Designer, you are the one {gap}, you know, you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in, I guess so, um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box, somehow. Industrial Designer: Mm. Har how it works an Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification. Project Manager: User requirements specifications. Marketing: So what the user requires Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap, because {disfmarker} Marketing: in a remote. Project Manager: Right, okay, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap. Marketing: I guess that's what it says. Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just, I think, you just double up, you know, you {disfmarker} working together. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research, see what people want in a remote, what buttons are used more often, and s stuff like that. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, we've been warned to finish the meeting now. Okay. Okay everyone, well done. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Good meeting. User Interface: Alright, see you in thirty minutes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {vocalsound}, do we take these off? Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}

Industrial Designer and Project Manager proposed the two-sided remote control, whose one side could be designed for kids and the other for adults. However, in this way, User Interface prospected a potential hard manipulation.

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How did the team reached an agreement on solving potential problems of the two-sided remote control? Project Manager: Mm-hmm? Okay. Ooh. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So we're'kay? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No. I dunno where to put it'cause the {disfmarker} Okay. Could you s take it off? {gap}. Marketing: Is that alright? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Keeps coming off.'S fiddly. Project Manager: Hmm. {gap} Marketing: {vocalsound} Right. Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start? Does anybody know? Marketing: Oh, another one. Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Oh okay, right. Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay. Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound} {gap}. Hmm. Okay, just hang on a second everybody. I haven't actually looked at this yet. Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah. Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker} Marketing: Very nice. Project Manager: I haven't looked at it, but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens. If you're all ready. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda? Opening, acquaintance, tool training and project plan, discussion and then closing. Project aim is a new remote control. It's original, uh trendy and it's user-friendly. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Project method, functional design, individual work, another meeting, conceptual design, individual work, and a meeting of details design, individual work and a meeting. Tool training. Try out the whiteboard, every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer, would you like to go first? Industrial Designer: Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, why don't you just c, I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt? Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Clip {gap}. Project Manager: Or put'em in your pocket, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} okay. So my favourite animal {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, what's your favourite animal? Industrial Designer:'Kay um {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: Is it rude? Marketing: It's an elephant. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: That's a very good elephant. User Interface: The back end of an elephant. Marketing: Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to draw that well. {vocalsound} Project Manager:'Kay, and you want to write up on there, it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal. Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay, it's big, it's got a great memory. Marketing: Does it? Oh. Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory, we say an elephant never forgets. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me. Project Manager: Okay. Wonderful, well done. Industrial Designer: Nice animal. Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off? Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next? User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep, sure. Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is. User Interface:'Kay, my favourite animal, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh let's see. Marketing: Oh. User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before. Marketing: It's {disfmarker} User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound}, Project Manager: No. Marketing: A what? User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound}. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite? Marketing: How {gap}. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie. Marketing: No. User Interface: You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, well done. Marketing: Great. Me? Project Manager: Yeah. Miss mar Miss Marketing? Marketing: Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work. User Interface: There {gap} go. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw. Can I just draw the face? Project Manager: Um yeah, I think you can just draw the face, but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ooh. It's a cat. Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat. Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail. Project Manager: Okay, do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Why? Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it? Marketing: Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker} Project Manager: Wow, so they're kinda spiritual. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So, that's why I like cats. Project Manager: Well done. Marketing: There we are, that's me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, I don't actually have a favourite animal, Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really? Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} no User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: A prairie dog? Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel? Project Manager: That's exactly what it is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say. User Interface: Yeah, that's pretty good. Project Manager: Okay, well, you got it's a s It's a squirrel, and I like them, because they're cute and stupid. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Very good. Marketing: Ah. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Right. Okay, so, I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay, project finance, selling price twenty five Euros, profit aim fifty million Euros. Marketing: Market range internationally sold. Project Manager: Yeah. Production cost, ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make. Marketing: Ah right okay. Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control, so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes. {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve. {vocalsound} User Interface: So I think before we close uh, we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: S Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting, we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: oh okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, I think this is just the preliminary, get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe. Project Manager: Okay. Right, who's got experiences with remote controls then? Pretty much everybody. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we've all got {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make? Marketing: Yeah. Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager:'Kay um. Marketing: Well. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: T Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like? {vocalsound} Um. Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker} Marketing: Medium. User Interface: Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas, I mean, you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player, or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff. User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something. Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah User Interface: Mm. Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager:'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh, I mean, how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much? Marketing: Twelve fifty. Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty. {vocalsound} User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit. Marketing: Each. Project Manager: Per unit, yeah. User Interface: Cost. Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well at the moment we could, wa I mean we {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah. Marketing: Guess {disfmarker} Project Manager:'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like, and then after we after we've found out what we can like, some different ideas, we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not. Industrial Designer: Right. Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um. Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out, and then you have another one, you slide it out. Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Marketing: {gap} have slides. And then it all comes compact Project Manager: Okay, that's {gap}. Marketing: into one. So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner, and um into one basically. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Th that's an idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So you just flip them out. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff, and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel, program plus and {vocalsound} minus, and the just the mute button, for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated. Project Manager: One side for kids, one side for adults. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well, you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button. User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though,'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it. Industrial Designer: No, but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Like it {gap} User Interface: Oh okay. Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone, something like that maybe. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: That would be cool. Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons, or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe. Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um, oh we've got five minutes left. Industrial Designer: Start breaking up. Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay. Marketing: Okay. Um. Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there. User Interface: Yeah, we should uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap}. User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design, what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface, but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_, but also devices connected to the to the T_V_, I mean, be able to operate Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: D_V_D_ players, things like that. Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't, we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control, that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_, but it's just a really good, nice one. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Right. Project Manager: What do you reckon? See'cause, {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make. User Interface: Yeah, I mean {gap}. Yeah, that's true, maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote, and have it be um Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker. User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: uh simple to use, and looks decent and {disfmarker} Project Manager: May w you know, maybe even {disfmarker} Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker} Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker} User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote, like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool. User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or, I dunno, something special. User Interface: Yeah, no I think you're right. Yeah, rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker} Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker} User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah,'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote, doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once, but you know, that's {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well, but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing,'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway, like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach, and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh, the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes, so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something. Project Manager: Okay, like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it. So make it {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, it's gotta be sellable. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true what you were saying, I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function, it can just have a lock function, so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them, I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Um alright, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so we've got some ideas, we've got um {disfmarker} User Interface: I guess that's good good for now. Project Manager: Let's move on. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Oops, let's close that. Next meeting, uh okay. Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for? Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah ri okay. {gap} these are requirement specification. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm. Marketing: And I'm marketing. Project Manager: Yeah, there you go. {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer, that's that's User Interface: That's me. Okay. Project Manager: that's you, so you gotta {gap} you go, you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need. Um. User Interface: Right. Right. Project Manager: Industrial Designer, you are the one {gap}, you know, you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in, I guess so, um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box, somehow. Industrial Designer: Mm. Har how it works an Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification. Project Manager: User requirements specifications. Marketing: So what the user requires Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap, because {disfmarker} Marketing: in a remote. Project Manager: Right, okay, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap. Marketing: I guess that's what it says. Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just, I think, you just double up, you know, you {disfmarker} working together. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research, see what people want in a remote, what buttons are used more often, and s stuff like that. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, we've been warned to finish the meeting now. Okay. Okay everyone, well done. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Good meeting. User Interface: Alright, see you in thirty minutes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {vocalsound}, do we take these off? Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}

Project Manager proposed the design of a flip telephone which could help solve this problem. When the controller is flipped open, users got all the buttons; while basic buttons are on the cover. The team reached an agreement on it.

tr-sq-742

tr-sq-742_0

What kind of design did the team proposed to help implement demographic marketing strategies? Project Manager: Mm-hmm? Okay. Ooh. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So we're'kay? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No. I dunno where to put it'cause the {disfmarker} Okay. Could you s take it off? {gap}. Marketing: Is that alright? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Keeps coming off.'S fiddly. Project Manager: Hmm. {gap} Marketing: {vocalsound} Right. Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start? Does anybody know? Marketing: Oh, another one. Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Oh okay, right. Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay. Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound} {gap}. Hmm. Okay, just hang on a second everybody. I haven't actually looked at this yet. Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah. Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker} Marketing: Very nice. Project Manager: I haven't looked at it, but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens. If you're all ready. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda? Opening, acquaintance, tool training and project plan, discussion and then closing. Project aim is a new remote control. It's original, uh trendy and it's user-friendly. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Project method, functional design, individual work, another meeting, conceptual design, individual work, and a meeting of details design, individual work and a meeting. Tool training. Try out the whiteboard, every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer, would you like to go first? Industrial Designer: Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, why don't you just c, I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt? Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Clip {gap}. Project Manager: Or put'em in your pocket, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} okay. So my favourite animal {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, what's your favourite animal? Industrial Designer:'Kay um {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: Is it rude? Marketing: It's an elephant. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: That's a very good elephant. User Interface: The back end of an elephant. Marketing: Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to draw that well. {vocalsound} Project Manager:'Kay, and you want to write up on there, it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal. Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay, it's big, it's got a great memory. Marketing: Does it? Oh. Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory, we say an elephant never forgets. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me. Project Manager: Okay. Wonderful, well done. Industrial Designer: Nice animal. Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off? Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next? User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep, sure. Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is. User Interface:'Kay, my favourite animal, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh let's see. Marketing: Oh. User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before. Marketing: It's {disfmarker} User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound}, Project Manager: No. Marketing: A what? User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound}. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite? Marketing: How {gap}. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie. Marketing: No. User Interface: You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, well done. Marketing: Great. Me? Project Manager: Yeah. Miss mar Miss Marketing? Marketing: Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work. User Interface: There {gap} go. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw. Can I just draw the face? Project Manager: Um yeah, I think you can just draw the face, but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ooh. It's a cat. Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat. Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail. Project Manager: Okay, do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Why? Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it? Marketing: Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker} Project Manager: Wow, so they're kinda spiritual. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So, that's why I like cats. Project Manager: Well done. Marketing: There we are, that's me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, I don't actually have a favourite animal, Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really? Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} no User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: A prairie dog? Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel? Project Manager: That's exactly what it is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say. User Interface: Yeah, that's pretty good. Project Manager: Okay, well, you got it's a s It's a squirrel, and I like them, because they're cute and stupid. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Very good. Marketing: Ah. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Right. Okay, so, I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay, project finance, selling price twenty five Euros, profit aim fifty million Euros. Marketing: Market range internationally sold. Project Manager: Yeah. Production cost, ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make. Marketing: Ah right okay. Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control, so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes. {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve. {vocalsound} User Interface: So I think before we close uh, we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: S Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting, we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: oh okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, I think this is just the preliminary, get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe. Project Manager: Okay. Right, who's got experiences with remote controls then? Pretty much everybody. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we've all got {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make? Marketing: Yeah. Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager:'Kay um. Marketing: Well. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: T Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like? {vocalsound} Um. Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker} Marketing: Medium. User Interface: Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas, I mean, you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player, or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff. User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something. Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah User Interface: Mm. Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager:'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh, I mean, how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much? Marketing: Twelve fifty. Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty. {vocalsound} User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit. Marketing: Each. Project Manager: Per unit, yeah. User Interface: Cost. Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well at the moment we could, wa I mean we {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah. Marketing: Guess {disfmarker} Project Manager:'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like, and then after we after we've found out what we can like, some different ideas, we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not. Industrial Designer: Right. Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um. Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out, and then you have another one, you slide it out. Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Marketing: {gap} have slides. And then it all comes compact Project Manager: Okay, that's {gap}. Marketing: into one. So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner, and um into one basically. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Th that's an idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So you just flip them out. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff, and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel, program plus and {vocalsound} minus, and the just the mute button, for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated. Project Manager: One side for kids, one side for adults. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well, you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button. User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though,'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it. Industrial Designer: No, but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Like it {gap} User Interface: Oh okay. Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone, something like that maybe. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: That would be cool. Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons, or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe. Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um, oh we've got five minutes left. Industrial Designer: Start breaking up. Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay. Marketing: Okay. Um. Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there. User Interface: Yeah, we should uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap}. User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design, what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface, but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_, but also devices connected to the to the T_V_, I mean, be able to operate Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: D_V_D_ players, things like that. Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't, we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control, that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_, but it's just a really good, nice one. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Right. Project Manager: What do you reckon? See'cause, {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make. User Interface: Yeah, I mean {gap}. Yeah, that's true, maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote, and have it be um Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker. User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: uh simple to use, and looks decent and {disfmarker} Project Manager: May w you know, maybe even {disfmarker} Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker} Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker} User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote, like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool. User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or, I dunno, something special. User Interface: Yeah, no I think you're right. Yeah, rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker} Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker} User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah,'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote, doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once, but you know, that's {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well, but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing,'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway, like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach, and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh, the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes, so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something. Project Manager: Okay, like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it. So make it {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, it's gotta be sellable. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true what you were saying, I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function, it can just have a lock function, so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them, I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Um alright, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so we've got some ideas, we've got um {disfmarker} User Interface: I guess that's good good for now. Project Manager: Let's move on. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Oops, let's close that. Next meeting, uh okay. Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for? Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah ri okay. {gap} these are requirement specification. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm. Marketing: And I'm marketing. Project Manager: Yeah, there you go. {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer, that's that's User Interface: That's me. Okay. Project Manager: that's you, so you gotta {gap} you go, you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need. Um. User Interface: Right. Right. Project Manager: Industrial Designer, you are the one {gap}, you know, you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in, I guess so, um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box, somehow. Industrial Designer: Mm. Har how it works an Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification. Project Manager: User requirements specifications. Marketing: So what the user requires Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap, because {disfmarker} Marketing: in a remote. Project Manager: Right, okay, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap. Marketing: I guess that's what it says. Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just, I think, you just double up, you know, you {disfmarker} working together. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research, see what people want in a remote, what buttons are used more often, and s stuff like that. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, we've been warned to finish the meeting now. Okay. Okay everyone, well done. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Good meeting. User Interface: Alright, see you in thirty minutes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {vocalsound}, do we take these off? Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}

Marketing proposed the design of a lid to avoid accidental pressing and touching. Project Manager proposed the design of a lock which could increase safety insurance for kids.

tr-gq-743

tr-gq-743_0

Summarize the whole meeting. Project Manager: Mm-hmm? Okay. Ooh. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So we're'kay? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No. I dunno where to put it'cause the {disfmarker} Okay. Could you s take it off? {gap}. Marketing: Is that alright? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: Keeps coming off.'S fiddly. Project Manager: Hmm. {gap} Marketing: {vocalsound} Right. Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start? Does anybody know? Marketing: Oh, another one. Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Oh okay, right. Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay. Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap}. {vocalsound} {gap}. Hmm. Okay, just hang on a second everybody. I haven't actually looked at this yet. Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah. Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker} Marketing: Very nice. Project Manager: I haven't looked at it, but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens. If you're all ready. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda? Opening, acquaintance, tool training and project plan, discussion and then closing. Project aim is a new remote control. It's original, uh trendy and it's user-friendly. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Project method, functional design, individual work, another meeting, conceptual design, individual work, and a meeting of details design, individual work and a meeting. Tool training. Try out the whiteboard, every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer, would you like to go first? Industrial Designer: Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, why don't you just c, I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt? Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Clip {gap}. Project Manager: Or put'em in your pocket, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} okay. So my favourite animal {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, what's your favourite animal? Industrial Designer:'Kay um {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: Is it rude? Marketing: It's an elephant. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: That's a very good elephant. User Interface: The back end of an elephant. Marketing: Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to draw that well. {vocalsound} Project Manager:'Kay, and you want to write up on there, it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal. Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay, it's big, it's got a great memory. Marketing: Does it? Oh. Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory, we say an elephant never forgets. Project Manager: Mm. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me. Project Manager: Okay. Wonderful, well done. Industrial Designer: Nice animal. Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off? Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next? User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep, sure. Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is. User Interface:'Kay, my favourite animal, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: uh let's see. Marketing: Oh. User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before. Marketing: It's {disfmarker} User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound}, Project Manager: No. Marketing: A what? User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound}. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite? Marketing: How {gap}. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie. Marketing: No. User Interface: You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, well done. Marketing: Great. Me? Project Manager: Yeah. Miss mar Miss Marketing? Marketing: Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work. User Interface: There {gap} go. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw. Can I just draw the face? Project Manager: Um yeah, I think you can just draw the face, but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks. {vocalsound} Marketing: Ooh. It's a cat. Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat. Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail. Project Manager: Okay, do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Why? Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it? Marketing: Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker} Project Manager: Wow, so they're kinda spiritual. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: So, that's why I like cats. Project Manager: Well done. Marketing: There we are, that's me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, I don't actually have a favourite animal, Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really? Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} no User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: A prairie dog? Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel? Project Manager: That's exactly what it is. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say. User Interface: Yeah, that's pretty good. Project Manager: Okay, well, you got it's a s It's a squirrel, and I like them, because they're cute and stupid. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Very good. Marketing: Ah. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Right. Okay, so, I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay, project finance, selling price twenty five Euros, profit aim fifty million Euros. Marketing: Market range internationally sold. Project Manager: Yeah. Production cost, ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make. Marketing: Ah right okay. Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control, so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes. {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve. {vocalsound} User Interface: So I think before we close uh, we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: S Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting, we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: oh okay. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, I think this is just the preliminary, get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe. Project Manager: Okay. Right, who's got experiences with remote controls then? Pretty much everybody. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, I think we've all got {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make? Marketing: Yeah. Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager:'Kay um. Marketing: Well. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: T Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like? {vocalsound} Um. Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker} Marketing: Medium. User Interface: Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas, I mean, you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player, or something like that, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff. User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something. Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah User Interface: Mm. Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager:'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh, I mean, how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much? Marketing: Twelve fifty. Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty. {vocalsound} User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit. Marketing: Each. Project Manager: Per unit, yeah. User Interface: Cost. Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well at the moment we could, wa I mean we {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah. Marketing: Guess {disfmarker} Project Manager:'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like, and then after we after we've found out what we can like, some different ideas, we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not. Industrial Designer: Right. Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Um. Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out, and then you have another one, you slide it out. Project Manager: {vocalsound}'Kay. Marketing: {gap} have slides. And then it all comes compact Project Manager: Okay, that's {gap}. Marketing: into one. So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner, and um into one basically. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Th that's an idea. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So you just flip them out. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff, and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel, program plus and {vocalsound} minus, and the just the mute button, for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated. Project Manager: One side for kids, one side for adults. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well, you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button. User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though,'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it. Industrial Designer: No, but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Like it {gap} User Interface: Oh okay. Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone, something like that maybe. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: That would be cool. Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons, or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe. Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Um, oh we've got five minutes left. Industrial Designer: Start breaking up. Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay. Marketing: Okay. Um. Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there. User Interface: Yeah, we should uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap}. User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design, what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface, but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_, but also devices connected to the to the T_V_, I mean, be able to operate Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: D_V_D_ players, things like that. Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't, we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control, that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_, but it's just a really good, nice one. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Right. Project Manager: What do you reckon? See'cause, {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make. User Interface: Yeah, I mean {gap}. Yeah, that's true, maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote, and have it be um Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker. User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: uh simple to use, and looks decent and {disfmarker} Project Manager: May w you know, maybe even {disfmarker} Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker} Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker} User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote, like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people, Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool. User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or, I dunno, something special. User Interface: Yeah, no I think you're right. Yeah, rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker} Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker} User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah,'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote, doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once, but you know, that's {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well, but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing,'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway, like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach, and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh, the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes, so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something. Project Manager: Okay, like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it. So make it {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, it's gotta be sellable. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's true what you were saying, I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function, it can just have a lock function, so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them, I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Um alright, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so we've got some ideas, we've got um {disfmarker} User Interface: I guess that's good good for now. Project Manager: Let's move on. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: Oops, let's close that. Next meeting, uh okay. Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for? Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah ri okay. {gap} these are requirement specification. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm. Marketing: And I'm marketing. Project Manager: Yeah, there you go. {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer, that's that's User Interface: That's me. Okay. Project Manager: that's you, so you gotta {gap} you go, you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need. Um. User Interface: Right. Right. Project Manager: Industrial Designer, you are the one {gap}, you know, you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in, I guess so, um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box, somehow. Industrial Designer: Mm. Har how it works an Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification. Project Manager: User requirements specifications. Marketing: So what the user requires Project Manager: Yeah, what {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap, because {disfmarker} Marketing: in a remote. Project Manager: Right, okay, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap. Marketing: I guess that's what it says. Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just, I think, you just double up, you know, you {disfmarker} working together. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research, see what people want in a remote, what buttons are used more often, and s stuff like that. Marketing: Mm. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, we've been warned to finish the meeting now. Okay. Okay everyone, well done. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Good meeting. User Interface: Alright, see you in thirty minutes. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {vocalsound}, do we take these off? Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}

The team got warmed-up through the opening drawing game which also works as the tool training process. The meeting was primarily composed of discussions among team members on potential functions and designs of remote controls based on their own life experiences. By then, feasibilities on budgets and demographic marketing strategies were also taken into consideration which influence greatly the potential functions and designs.

tr-sq-744

tr-sq-744_0

Summarize the discussion about meeting recorder digits Professor A: We're going? OK. Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out? Grad B: OK. Thanks. Professor A: Thanks. Grad B: Oh. Professor A: Yeah. Probably wanna get this other door, too. OK. So. Um. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today? PhD E: Uh, well, first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested. Professor A: Oh, yeah. That was kind of uh interesting. PhD E: So. Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth PhD E: Um. Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not, PhD E: Of data? Yeah. Professor A: uh, the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh it's significantly better than that, using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, with the SRI system. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that's {disfmarker} that's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data, mostly not digits, of course, but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well, yeah. In fact, mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we're just using digits for training the H M PhD E: Yeah. Right. Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states? PhD E: I guess it's {disfmarker} it's uh allophone models, Professor A: Yeah. Probably. PhD E: so, well {disfmarker} Professor A: Huh? PhD E: Yeah. I think so, because it's their very d huge, their huge system. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. But. So. There is one difference {disfmarker} Well, the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation. So there is {disfmarker} It's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation. Professor A: That's true. PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation, the error rate is around fifty percent worse, I think, if I remember. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's tha it's that much, huh? PhD E: Nnn. It's {disfmarker} Yeah. It's quite significant. Professor A: Oh. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Still. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I'd be interested to do given that, is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody's gonna do this, right? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system, right? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: We can do something like that. Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure. Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now, well, the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah, well, I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do Professor A: Yeah, but he's doing it with the same data, right? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there's {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's two things being affected. PhD E: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} Yeah. Professor A: I mean. One is that {disfmarker} that, you know, there's something simple that's wrong with the back - end. We've been playing a number of states PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh, uh, you know. But, yeah, so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but that's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: And um. PhD E: Mmm. So, yeah, we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker} Professor A: Well, you could do that, but I'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained, just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M PhD E: Ah, yeah. Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features, the features coming from our Aurora stuff. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So. PhD E: Yeah. But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it's not related, the amount of data but the um recording conditions. I don't know. Because {vocalsound} it's probably not a problem of noise, because our features are supposed to be robust to noise. Professor A: Well, yeah. PhD E: It's not a problem of channel, because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel. So {disfmarker} Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'm sorry. What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you're trying to explain? PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse. Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh. So much worse? Oh. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I uh but I'm {disfmarker} I'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean, that it has to do with the um amount of training data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's orders of magnitude off. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah but we train only on digits and it's {disfmarker} it's a digit task, so. Well. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do, they use a huge amount of data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: This is a modest amount of data. PhD E: Alright. Yeah. Professor A: So. {vocalsound} I mean, ordinarily you would say" well, given that you have enough occurrences of the digits, you can just train with digits rather than with, you know" {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: But the thing is, if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words, do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones. PhD E: Right. Mmm. Professor A: And that's just a huge amount of training for it. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So it's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that, because, as you say, this is, you know, this is near - microphone, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it's really pretty clean data. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Now, some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let's see, in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean, that could be hurting us actually, for the clean case. PhD E: Yeah. Well, actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train, Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah. PhD E: yeah. Professor A: Yeah. Cuz this is clean data, and so that's not too surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But um. Uh. So. PhD E: Well, o I guess what I meant is that well, let's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits, I guess we could have better results than this. Professor A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. PhD E: And. What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this, what's {disfmarker} what's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker} Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits? PhD E: It's point eight percent, so. Professor A: Oh. I see. PhD E: Four - Fourier. Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we're getting point eight percent, PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Professor A: and here we're getting three or four {disfmarker} three, let's see, three for this? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Yeah. Sure, but I mean, um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who've worked very hard at doing that. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also, as you point out, there's adaptation in these numbers also. So if you, you know, put the ad adap take the adaptation off, then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: And here you had, you know, something like three point four. And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: You know, I don't think there's anything magical here. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's, you know, we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data. And this is a {disfmarker} a, you know, modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. So. I mean, the HTK is an older HTK, even. So. Yeah it {disfmarker} it's not that surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that's {disfmarker} that's uh, uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number, and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It's an interesting question though, still. Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database? Um. PhD E: Yeah. th that's {disfmarker} th that's my point Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah. So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment, PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system, if we're getting point eight percent, which, yes, it's high. It's, you know, it {disfmarker} it's not awfully high, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but it's, you know {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's high. Um. {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high, or more? PhD E: Yeah, I guess. Professor A: Right? I mean, there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it's close - miked there's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all. PhD E: Well. Yeah. And acoustically, it's q it's {disfmarker} I listened. It's quite different. TI - digit is {disfmarker} it's very, very clean and it's like studio recording Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm. Professor A: Right. Yeah. So I think they were {disfmarker} PhD E: It's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all, I mean. Professor A: Bless you. Grad B: Thanks. Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I think it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} So. Yes. PhD E: Mm - hmm. But Professor A: It's {disfmarker} I think it's {disfmarker} it's the indication it's harder. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Uh. {vocalsound} Yeah and again, you know, i that's true either way. I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, the SRI results. I mean, they're much much better, but still you're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. And uh, I'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get, you know, point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits. So this {disfmarker} I think, on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it's still read. But I still think it's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face, {vocalsound} um when they're {disfmarker} they're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone. I mean. {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers, but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits. I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh, I mean, for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it's a we we it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's US. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways. So. Um. I mean. OK. That was that topic. What else we got? PhD E: Um. Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on, any Eurospeech submissions, PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: or {disfmarker}? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something, but uh. PhD E: Yeah. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and, well, {disfmarker} So, I think, yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} Now, actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora, right? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something. PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, for sure we will do something for the special session. Professor A: Yeah. Well, that's fine. So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody. so. That's fine. Um. Anything else? PhD E: Yeah. Well. So. Perhaps the point is that we've been working on {vocalsound} is, yeah, we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference. Um. So, yeah. I think, yeah, this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best, because with the new VAD, it's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: Huh. PhD E: Um. So there is this point. Uh. The problem is that it's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well, this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side, it doesn't work, because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from? PhD E: So. It's um from OGI. So it's the network trained {disfmarker} it's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units, and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs. Professor A: This is the one they had originally? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Oh. Yeah, but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space, didn't they? PhD E: Yeah. So. Yeah. But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that's small and that works fine. And. So we can {disfmarker} Professor A: Well. So that's a problem. Yeah. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn. Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely. I mean, uh i if {disfmarker} if there's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. They just want, apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard. Professor A: OK. PhD E: So. So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely. So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think. Professor A: Determined. I see. But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s" Sure, there may be some interaction, PhD E: Nnn. Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD. We could use somebody else's if it's smaller or {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: You know, as long as it did the job. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So that's good. PhD E: Uh. So there is this thing. There is um {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters, {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds Professor A: Right. PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it's sixty - five. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker} Professor A: You didn't gain anything, right? PhD E: Yeah. And. So I did that and uh it's running. So, {vocalsound} let's see what will happen. Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Um. Yeah. I think {disfmarker} Professor A: So that means logically, in principle, it should be better. So probably it'll be worse. PhD E: Yeah Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality. Yeah. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Sure. Grad C: Yeah. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah, and then we've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens. So, something that's similar to the proposal too, but with MSG stream. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: OK. PhD D: No, I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision. But only to play. And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter, the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And, well, is more or less robust. Is good for clean speech. Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech. Professor A: Huh? Mm - hmm. PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on, Professor A: Yeah. PhD D: well, I don't know. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. So, basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker} Professor A: Right. PhD D: Mm - hmm. PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker} PhD D: I have here. I have here for one signal, for one frame. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Yeah. Uh - huh. PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two, noise and unnoise, and the signal is this. Clean, and this noise. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed, the big signal is for clean. Professor A: Well, I'm s uh {disfmarker} There's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled, so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What's this axis? PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn," frame" . Professor A: Frame. PhD D: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And what's th what this? PhD D: Uh, this is uh energy, log - energy of the spectrum. Of the this is the variance, the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two, Professor A: For this one. For the noi PhD D: this big, to here, they are to signal. This is for clean and this is for noise. Professor A: Oh. There's two things on the same graph. PhD D: Yeah. I don't know. I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph, but I'm not sure. Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise? PhD E: Yeah. I think the lower one is noise. PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean. Professor A: OK. So it's harder to distinguish PhD D: It's height. Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} PhD D: Oh. I must to have. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: Pity, but I don't have two different Professor A: And presumably when there's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: Yeah, it is the height is voiced portion. PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion. PhD D: And this is the noise portion. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And this is more or less like this. But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture. Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. PhD D: This is, for example, for one frame. Professor A: Yeah PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal. And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank. Professor A: Yeah. And this is the difference? PhD D: And this is I don't know. This is not the different. This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s Professor A: No pre - emphasis? Yeah. PhD D: Not pre - emphasis. Nothing. Professor A: Yeah so it's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there. PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good. This is quite similar. this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame. ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope, {nonvocalsound} this envelope, with the mel filter bank. Professor A: Right. So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean, do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um. But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced, do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that? I mean, do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean, clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on, right? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Yeah. Well, this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker} Professor A: I see. PhD E: Yeah. PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear PhD E: Uh. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it's low values Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you probably want {disfmarker} I mean, {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection, you need a few features. Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough. But, you know, people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient, divided by power. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker} PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Uh. Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure. Right. And {disfmarker} and uh. PhD E: Mmm. PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper, {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday. they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem PhD E: Oh, yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, but it's not {disfmarker} it's, yeah, it's {disfmarker} it's another problem. PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem. PhD E: Yeah Um. Yeah, there is th this fact actually. If you look at this um spectrum, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: What's this again? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters? PhD D: Yeah like this. Of kind like this. PhD E: Yeah. OK. So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases, and it clearly appears here, and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well, there are still appear after mel - filtering, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: It's around one hundred, one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn. Professor A: Right. PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh, add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that's smoother on low frequencies. Professor A: That's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing. PhD E: i Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. This is a separate thing. Professor A: Separate thing? PhD D: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. Professor A: Yeah. Maybe so. Um. Yeah. So, what {disfmarker} Yeah. What I was talking about was just, starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh uh, given {disfmarker} you know, given that, uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. It's uh a variant on what you're s what you're doing. The {disfmarker} I mean, the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing. But as you say it's not that smooth here. And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz, even. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy, the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments. At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue. So. {vocalsound} Anyway. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK? That's what's going on. Uh. What's up with you? Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors, how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know, uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you're doing recognition, there's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah, I've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So, um. Yeah. Just that's about it. Professor A: OK. Grad C: OK. And um so I've been looking at Avendano's work and um uh I'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he's doing, but it's {disfmarker} it's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full. You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in, but it's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take, say, a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this, most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear. It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed. He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction, which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution. So I don't really know the theory. I guess it's {disfmarker} these are called" time frequency representations" and h he's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: s so I'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me. So that that'll take some reading about the theory. I don't really know the theory. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: Oh, and um, {vocalsound} another f first step is um, so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response, say, between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK. Um. I think we're {vocalsound} sort of done. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So let's read our digits and go home. Grad C: Um. S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O's and some as zeros. Professor A: Yeah. Grad C: Is there a particular way we're supposed to read them? PhD E: There are only zeros here. Well. Professor A: No." O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" " O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" and" zero" are two ways that we say that digit. PhD E: Eee. Yeah. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} Grad B: Ha! PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: so it's {disfmarker} i PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say" O" or Professor A: No. I mean. I think people will do what they say. PhD E: It's {disfmarker} Professor A: It's OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we've done before, you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value," O" and" zero" . Grad C: Alright. PhD E: OK. Grad C: OK. PhD E: But it's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then, if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros Professor A: No, they just write {disfmarker} PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce" O" or zero {disfmarker} Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH. or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation. PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the" O" . Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it. PhD E: OK. Yeah. Professor A: See. I mean, you'd have to tell them {vocalsound}" OK when we write this, say it tha" , PhD E: OK. Professor A: you know, and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would PhD E: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways. PhD E: Yep. Grad C: OK. Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read. PhD E: Yeah, it was orthographic, so. Professor A: Yes. That's right. It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out, and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things. Grad C: Oh. OK. Professor A: That's also why they're {disfmarker} they're bunched together in these different groups. So {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} Grad C: OK. Professor A: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} Everything's fine. Grad C: OK. Professor A: OK. Actually, let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up, I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it. But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I'm talking on the phone, certainly, and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers, {vocalsound} I almost always say zero. And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it's two syllables. It's {disfmarker} it's more likely they'll understand what I said. So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's the habit I'm in, but some people say" O" and {disfmarker} Grad B: Yeah I normally say" O" cuz it's easier to say. Professor A: Yeah it's shorter. Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} So. {vocalsound} So uh. Grad B:" O" Professor A: Now, don't think about it. Grad B: Oh, no! Professor A: OK. We're done.

The team was concerned that there was something wrong with the back-end of the model. The professor was insistent that the problem was probably with the lack of data. The team also speculated that their data was more challenging.

tr-sq-745

tr-sq-745_0

What did the professor think about the back-end? Professor A: We're going? OK. Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out? Grad B: OK. Thanks. Professor A: Thanks. Grad B: Oh. Professor A: Yeah. Probably wanna get this other door, too. OK. So. Um. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today? PhD E: Uh, well, first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested. Professor A: Oh, yeah. That was kind of uh interesting. PhD E: So. Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth PhD E: Um. Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not, PhD E: Of data? Yeah. Professor A: uh, the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh it's significantly better than that, using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, with the SRI system. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that's {disfmarker} that's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data, mostly not digits, of course, but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well, yeah. In fact, mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we're just using digits for training the H M PhD E: Yeah. Right. Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states? PhD E: I guess it's {disfmarker} it's uh allophone models, Professor A: Yeah. Probably. PhD E: so, well {disfmarker} Professor A: Huh? PhD E: Yeah. I think so, because it's their very d huge, their huge system. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. But. So. There is one difference {disfmarker} Well, the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation. So there is {disfmarker} It's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation. Professor A: That's true. PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation, the error rate is around fifty percent worse, I think, if I remember. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's tha it's that much, huh? PhD E: Nnn. It's {disfmarker} Yeah. It's quite significant. Professor A: Oh. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Still. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I'd be interested to do given that, is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody's gonna do this, right? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system, right? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: We can do something like that. Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure. Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now, well, the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah, well, I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do Professor A: Yeah, but he's doing it with the same data, right? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there's {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's two things being affected. PhD E: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} Yeah. Professor A: I mean. One is that {disfmarker} that, you know, there's something simple that's wrong with the back - end. We've been playing a number of states PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh, uh, you know. But, yeah, so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but that's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: And um. PhD E: Mmm. So, yeah, we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker} Professor A: Well, you could do that, but I'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained, just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M PhD E: Ah, yeah. Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features, the features coming from our Aurora stuff. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So. PhD E: Yeah. But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it's not related, the amount of data but the um recording conditions. I don't know. Because {vocalsound} it's probably not a problem of noise, because our features are supposed to be robust to noise. Professor A: Well, yeah. PhD E: It's not a problem of channel, because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel. So {disfmarker} Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'm sorry. What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you're trying to explain? PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse. Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh. So much worse? Oh. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I uh but I'm {disfmarker} I'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean, that it has to do with the um amount of training data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's orders of magnitude off. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah but we train only on digits and it's {disfmarker} it's a digit task, so. Well. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do, they use a huge amount of data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: This is a modest amount of data. PhD E: Alright. Yeah. Professor A: So. {vocalsound} I mean, ordinarily you would say" well, given that you have enough occurrences of the digits, you can just train with digits rather than with, you know" {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: But the thing is, if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words, do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones. PhD E: Right. Mmm. Professor A: And that's just a huge amount of training for it. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So it's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that, because, as you say, this is, you know, this is near - microphone, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it's really pretty clean data. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Now, some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let's see, in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean, that could be hurting us actually, for the clean case. PhD E: Yeah. Well, actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train, Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah. PhD E: yeah. Professor A: Yeah. Cuz this is clean data, and so that's not too surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But um. Uh. So. PhD E: Well, o I guess what I meant is that well, let's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits, I guess we could have better results than this. Professor A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. PhD E: And. What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this, what's {disfmarker} what's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker} Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits? PhD E: It's point eight percent, so. Professor A: Oh. I see. PhD E: Four - Fourier. Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we're getting point eight percent, PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Professor A: and here we're getting three or four {disfmarker} three, let's see, three for this? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Yeah. Sure, but I mean, um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who've worked very hard at doing that. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also, as you point out, there's adaptation in these numbers also. So if you, you know, put the ad adap take the adaptation off, then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: And here you had, you know, something like three point four. And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: You know, I don't think there's anything magical here. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's, you know, we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data. And this is a {disfmarker} a, you know, modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. So. I mean, the HTK is an older HTK, even. So. Yeah it {disfmarker} it's not that surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that's {disfmarker} that's uh, uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number, and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It's an interesting question though, still. Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database? Um. PhD E: Yeah. th that's {disfmarker} th that's my point Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah. So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment, PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system, if we're getting point eight percent, which, yes, it's high. It's, you know, it {disfmarker} it's not awfully high, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but it's, you know {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's high. Um. {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high, or more? PhD E: Yeah, I guess. Professor A: Right? I mean, there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it's close - miked there's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all. PhD E: Well. Yeah. And acoustically, it's q it's {disfmarker} I listened. It's quite different. TI - digit is {disfmarker} it's very, very clean and it's like studio recording Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm. Professor A: Right. Yeah. So I think they were {disfmarker} PhD E: It's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all, I mean. Professor A: Bless you. Grad B: Thanks. Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I think it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} So. Yes. PhD E: Mm - hmm. But Professor A: It's {disfmarker} I think it's {disfmarker} it's the indication it's harder. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Uh. {vocalsound} Yeah and again, you know, i that's true either way. I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, the SRI results. I mean, they're much much better, but still you're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. And uh, I'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get, you know, point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits. So this {disfmarker} I think, on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it's still read. But I still think it's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face, {vocalsound} um when they're {disfmarker} they're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone. I mean. {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers, but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits. I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh, I mean, for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it's a we we it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's US. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways. So. Um. I mean. OK. That was that topic. What else we got? PhD E: Um. Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on, any Eurospeech submissions, PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: or {disfmarker}? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something, but uh. PhD E: Yeah. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and, well, {disfmarker} So, I think, yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} Now, actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora, right? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something. PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, for sure we will do something for the special session. Professor A: Yeah. Well, that's fine. So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody. so. That's fine. Um. Anything else? PhD E: Yeah. Well. So. Perhaps the point is that we've been working on {vocalsound} is, yeah, we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference. Um. So, yeah. I think, yeah, this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best, because with the new VAD, it's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: Huh. PhD E: Um. So there is this point. Uh. The problem is that it's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well, this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side, it doesn't work, because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from? PhD E: So. It's um from OGI. So it's the network trained {disfmarker} it's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units, and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs. Professor A: This is the one they had originally? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Oh. Yeah, but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space, didn't they? PhD E: Yeah. So. Yeah. But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that's small and that works fine. And. So we can {disfmarker} Professor A: Well. So that's a problem. Yeah. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn. Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely. I mean, uh i if {disfmarker} if there's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. They just want, apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard. Professor A: OK. PhD E: So. So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely. So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think. Professor A: Determined. I see. But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s" Sure, there may be some interaction, PhD E: Nnn. Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD. We could use somebody else's if it's smaller or {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: You know, as long as it did the job. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So that's good. PhD E: Uh. So there is this thing. There is um {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters, {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds Professor A: Right. PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it's sixty - five. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker} Professor A: You didn't gain anything, right? PhD E: Yeah. And. So I did that and uh it's running. So, {vocalsound} let's see what will happen. Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Um. Yeah. I think {disfmarker} Professor A: So that means logically, in principle, it should be better. So probably it'll be worse. PhD E: Yeah Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality. Yeah. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Sure. Grad C: Yeah. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah, and then we've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens. So, something that's similar to the proposal too, but with MSG stream. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: OK. PhD D: No, I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision. But only to play. And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter, the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And, well, is more or less robust. Is good for clean speech. Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech. Professor A: Huh? Mm - hmm. PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on, Professor A: Yeah. PhD D: well, I don't know. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. So, basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker} Professor A: Right. PhD D: Mm - hmm. PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker} PhD D: I have here. I have here for one signal, for one frame. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Yeah. Uh - huh. PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two, noise and unnoise, and the signal is this. Clean, and this noise. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed, the big signal is for clean. Professor A: Well, I'm s uh {disfmarker} There's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled, so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What's this axis? PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn," frame" . Professor A: Frame. PhD D: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And what's th what this? PhD D: Uh, this is uh energy, log - energy of the spectrum. Of the this is the variance, the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two, Professor A: For this one. For the noi PhD D: this big, to here, they are to signal. This is for clean and this is for noise. Professor A: Oh. There's two things on the same graph. PhD D: Yeah. I don't know. I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph, but I'm not sure. Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise? PhD E: Yeah. I think the lower one is noise. PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean. Professor A: OK. So it's harder to distinguish PhD D: It's height. Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} PhD D: Oh. I must to have. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: Pity, but I don't have two different Professor A: And presumably when there's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: Yeah, it is the height is voiced portion. PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion. PhD D: And this is the noise portion. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And this is more or less like this. But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture. Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. PhD D: This is, for example, for one frame. Professor A: Yeah PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal. And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank. Professor A: Yeah. And this is the difference? PhD D: And this is I don't know. This is not the different. This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s Professor A: No pre - emphasis? Yeah. PhD D: Not pre - emphasis. Nothing. Professor A: Yeah so it's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there. PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good. This is quite similar. this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame. ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope, {nonvocalsound} this envelope, with the mel filter bank. Professor A: Right. So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean, do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um. But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced, do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that? I mean, do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean, clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on, right? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Yeah. Well, this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker} Professor A: I see. PhD E: Yeah. PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear PhD E: Uh. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it's low values Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you probably want {disfmarker} I mean, {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection, you need a few features. Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough. But, you know, people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient, divided by power. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker} PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Uh. Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure. Right. And {disfmarker} and uh. PhD E: Mmm. PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper, {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday. they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem PhD E: Oh, yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, but it's not {disfmarker} it's, yeah, it's {disfmarker} it's another problem. PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem. PhD E: Yeah Um. Yeah, there is th this fact actually. If you look at this um spectrum, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: What's this again? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters? PhD D: Yeah like this. Of kind like this. PhD E: Yeah. OK. So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases, and it clearly appears here, and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well, there are still appear after mel - filtering, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: It's around one hundred, one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn. Professor A: Right. PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh, add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that's smoother on low frequencies. Professor A: That's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing. PhD E: i Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. This is a separate thing. Professor A: Separate thing? PhD D: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. Professor A: Yeah. Maybe so. Um. Yeah. So, what {disfmarker} Yeah. What I was talking about was just, starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh uh, given {disfmarker} you know, given that, uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. It's uh a variant on what you're s what you're doing. The {disfmarker} I mean, the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing. But as you say it's not that smooth here. And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz, even. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy, the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments. At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue. So. {vocalsound} Anyway. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK? That's what's going on. Uh. What's up with you? Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors, how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know, uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you're doing recognition, there's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah, I've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So, um. Yeah. Just that's about it. Professor A: OK. Grad C: OK. And um so I've been looking at Avendano's work and um uh I'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he's doing, but it's {disfmarker} it's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full. You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in, but it's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take, say, a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this, most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear. It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed. He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction, which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution. So I don't really know the theory. I guess it's {disfmarker} these are called" time frequency representations" and h he's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: s so I'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me. So that that'll take some reading about the theory. I don't really know the theory. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: Oh, and um, {vocalsound} another f first step is um, so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response, say, between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK. Um. I think we're {vocalsound} sort of done. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So let's read our digits and go home. Grad C: Um. S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O's and some as zeros. Professor A: Yeah. Grad C: Is there a particular way we're supposed to read them? PhD E: There are only zeros here. Well. Professor A: No." O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" " O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" and" zero" are two ways that we say that digit. PhD E: Eee. Yeah. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} Grad B: Ha! PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: so it's {disfmarker} i PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say" O" or Professor A: No. I mean. I think people will do what they say. PhD E: It's {disfmarker} Professor A: It's OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we've done before, you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value," O" and" zero" . Grad C: Alright. PhD E: OK. Grad C: OK. PhD E: But it's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then, if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros Professor A: No, they just write {disfmarker} PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce" O" or zero {disfmarker} Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH. or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation. PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the" O" . Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it. PhD E: OK. Yeah. Professor A: See. I mean, you'd have to tell them {vocalsound}" OK when we write this, say it tha" , PhD E: OK. Professor A: you know, and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would PhD E: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways. PhD E: Yep. Grad C: OK. Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read. PhD E: Yeah, it was orthographic, so. Professor A: Yes. That's right. It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out, and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things. Grad C: Oh. OK. Professor A: That's also why they're {disfmarker} they're bunched together in these different groups. So {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} Grad C: OK. Professor A: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} Everything's fine. Grad C: OK. Professor A: OK. Actually, let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up, I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it. But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I'm talking on the phone, certainly, and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers, {vocalsound} I almost always say zero. And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it's two syllables. It's {disfmarker} it's more likely they'll understand what I said. So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's the habit I'm in, but some people say" O" and {disfmarker} Grad B: Yeah I normally say" O" cuz it's easier to say. Professor A: Yeah it's shorter. Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} So. {vocalsound} So uh. Grad B:" O" Professor A: Now, don't think about it. Grad B: Oh, no! Professor A: OK. We're done.

The professor thought that they were constrained by the shortage of data in the backend. Bigger companies had massive amounts of data to train their models. He recalled that they had been playing with the states in the back-end, but the results had not been too fruitful.

tr-sq-746

tr-sq-746_0

What did PhD E think about the noise? Professor A: We're going? OK. Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out? Grad B: OK. Thanks. Professor A: Thanks. Grad B: Oh. Professor A: Yeah. Probably wanna get this other door, too. OK. So. Um. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today? PhD E: Uh, well, first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested. Professor A: Oh, yeah. That was kind of uh interesting. PhD E: So. Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth PhD E: Um. Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not, PhD E: Of data? Yeah. Professor A: uh, the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh it's significantly better than that, using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, with the SRI system. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that's {disfmarker} that's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data, mostly not digits, of course, but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well, yeah. In fact, mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we're just using digits for training the H M PhD E: Yeah. Right. Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states? PhD E: I guess it's {disfmarker} it's uh allophone models, Professor A: Yeah. Probably. PhD E: so, well {disfmarker} Professor A: Huh? PhD E: Yeah. I think so, because it's their very d huge, their huge system. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. But. So. There is one difference {disfmarker} Well, the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation. So there is {disfmarker} It's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation. Professor A: That's true. PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation, the error rate is around fifty percent worse, I think, if I remember. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's tha it's that much, huh? PhD E: Nnn. It's {disfmarker} Yeah. It's quite significant. Professor A: Oh. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Still. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I'd be interested to do given that, is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody's gonna do this, right? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system, right? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: We can do something like that. Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure. Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now, well, the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah, well, I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do Professor A: Yeah, but he's doing it with the same data, right? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there's {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's two things being affected. PhD E: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} Yeah. Professor A: I mean. One is that {disfmarker} that, you know, there's something simple that's wrong with the back - end. We've been playing a number of states PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh, uh, you know. But, yeah, so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but that's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: And um. PhD E: Mmm. So, yeah, we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker} Professor A: Well, you could do that, but I'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained, just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M PhD E: Ah, yeah. Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features, the features coming from our Aurora stuff. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So. PhD E: Yeah. But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it's not related, the amount of data but the um recording conditions. I don't know. Because {vocalsound} it's probably not a problem of noise, because our features are supposed to be robust to noise. Professor A: Well, yeah. PhD E: It's not a problem of channel, because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel. So {disfmarker} Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'm sorry. What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you're trying to explain? PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse. Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh. So much worse? Oh. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I uh but I'm {disfmarker} I'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean, that it has to do with the um amount of training data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's orders of magnitude off. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah but we train only on digits and it's {disfmarker} it's a digit task, so. Well. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do, they use a huge amount of data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: This is a modest amount of data. PhD E: Alright. Yeah. Professor A: So. {vocalsound} I mean, ordinarily you would say" well, given that you have enough occurrences of the digits, you can just train with digits rather than with, you know" {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: But the thing is, if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words, do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones. PhD E: Right. Mmm. Professor A: And that's just a huge amount of training for it. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So it's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that, because, as you say, this is, you know, this is near - microphone, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it's really pretty clean data. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Now, some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let's see, in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean, that could be hurting us actually, for the clean case. PhD E: Yeah. Well, actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train, Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah. PhD E: yeah. Professor A: Yeah. Cuz this is clean data, and so that's not too surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But um. Uh. So. PhD E: Well, o I guess what I meant is that well, let's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits, I guess we could have better results than this. Professor A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. PhD E: And. What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this, what's {disfmarker} what's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker} Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits? PhD E: It's point eight percent, so. Professor A: Oh. I see. PhD E: Four - Fourier. Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we're getting point eight percent, PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Professor A: and here we're getting three or four {disfmarker} three, let's see, three for this? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Yeah. Sure, but I mean, um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who've worked very hard at doing that. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also, as you point out, there's adaptation in these numbers also. So if you, you know, put the ad adap take the adaptation off, then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: And here you had, you know, something like three point four. And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: You know, I don't think there's anything magical here. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's, you know, we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data. And this is a {disfmarker} a, you know, modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. So. I mean, the HTK is an older HTK, even. So. Yeah it {disfmarker} it's not that surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that's {disfmarker} that's uh, uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number, and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It's an interesting question though, still. Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database? Um. PhD E: Yeah. th that's {disfmarker} th that's my point Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah. So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment, PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system, if we're getting point eight percent, which, yes, it's high. It's, you know, it {disfmarker} it's not awfully high, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but it's, you know {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's high. Um. {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high, or more? PhD E: Yeah, I guess. Professor A: Right? I mean, there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it's close - miked there's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all. PhD E: Well. Yeah. And acoustically, it's q it's {disfmarker} I listened. It's quite different. TI - digit is {disfmarker} it's very, very clean and it's like studio recording Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm. Professor A: Right. Yeah. So I think they were {disfmarker} PhD E: It's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all, I mean. Professor A: Bless you. Grad B: Thanks. Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I think it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} So. Yes. PhD E: Mm - hmm. But Professor A: It's {disfmarker} I think it's {disfmarker} it's the indication it's harder. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Uh. {vocalsound} Yeah and again, you know, i that's true either way. I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, the SRI results. I mean, they're much much better, but still you're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. And uh, I'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get, you know, point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits. So this {disfmarker} I think, on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it's still read. But I still think it's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face, {vocalsound} um when they're {disfmarker} they're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone. I mean. {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers, but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits. I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh, I mean, for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it's a we we it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's US. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways. So. Um. I mean. OK. That was that topic. What else we got? PhD E: Um. Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on, any Eurospeech submissions, PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: or {disfmarker}? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something, but uh. PhD E: Yeah. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and, well, {disfmarker} So, I think, yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} Now, actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora, right? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something. PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, for sure we will do something for the special session. Professor A: Yeah. Well, that's fine. So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody. so. That's fine. Um. Anything else? PhD E: Yeah. Well. So. Perhaps the point is that we've been working on {vocalsound} is, yeah, we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference. Um. So, yeah. I think, yeah, this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best, because with the new VAD, it's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: Huh. PhD E: Um. So there is this point. Uh. The problem is that it's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well, this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side, it doesn't work, because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from? PhD E: So. It's um from OGI. So it's the network trained {disfmarker} it's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units, and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs. Professor A: This is the one they had originally? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Oh. Yeah, but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space, didn't they? PhD E: Yeah. So. Yeah. But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that's small and that works fine. And. So we can {disfmarker} Professor A: Well. So that's a problem. Yeah. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn. Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely. I mean, uh i if {disfmarker} if there's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. They just want, apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard. Professor A: OK. PhD E: So. So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely. So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think. Professor A: Determined. I see. But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s" Sure, there may be some interaction, PhD E: Nnn. Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD. We could use somebody else's if it's smaller or {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: You know, as long as it did the job. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So that's good. PhD E: Uh. So there is this thing. There is um {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters, {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds Professor A: Right. PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it's sixty - five. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker} Professor A: You didn't gain anything, right? PhD E: Yeah. And. So I did that and uh it's running. So, {vocalsound} let's see what will happen. Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Um. Yeah. I think {disfmarker} Professor A: So that means logically, in principle, it should be better. So probably it'll be worse. PhD E: Yeah Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality. Yeah. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Sure. Grad C: Yeah. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah, and then we've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens. So, something that's similar to the proposal too, but with MSG stream. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: OK. PhD D: No, I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision. But only to play. And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter, the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And, well, is more or less robust. Is good for clean speech. Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech. Professor A: Huh? Mm - hmm. PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on, Professor A: Yeah. PhD D: well, I don't know. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. So, basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker} Professor A: Right. PhD D: Mm - hmm. PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker} PhD D: I have here. I have here for one signal, for one frame. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Yeah. Uh - huh. PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two, noise and unnoise, and the signal is this. Clean, and this noise. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed, the big signal is for clean. Professor A: Well, I'm s uh {disfmarker} There's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled, so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What's this axis? PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn," frame" . Professor A: Frame. PhD D: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And what's th what this? PhD D: Uh, this is uh energy, log - energy of the spectrum. Of the this is the variance, the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two, Professor A: For this one. For the noi PhD D: this big, to here, they are to signal. This is for clean and this is for noise. Professor A: Oh. There's two things on the same graph. PhD D: Yeah. I don't know. I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph, but I'm not sure. Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise? PhD E: Yeah. I think the lower one is noise. PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean. Professor A: OK. So it's harder to distinguish PhD D: It's height. Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} PhD D: Oh. I must to have. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: Pity, but I don't have two different Professor A: And presumably when there's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: Yeah, it is the height is voiced portion. PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion. PhD D: And this is the noise portion. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And this is more or less like this. But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture. Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. PhD D: This is, for example, for one frame. Professor A: Yeah PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal. And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank. Professor A: Yeah. And this is the difference? PhD D: And this is I don't know. This is not the different. This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s Professor A: No pre - emphasis? Yeah. PhD D: Not pre - emphasis. Nothing. Professor A: Yeah so it's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there. PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good. This is quite similar. this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame. ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope, {nonvocalsound} this envelope, with the mel filter bank. Professor A: Right. So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean, do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um. But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced, do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that? I mean, do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean, clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on, right? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Yeah. Well, this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker} Professor A: I see. PhD E: Yeah. PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear PhD E: Uh. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it's low values Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you probably want {disfmarker} I mean, {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection, you need a few features. Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough. But, you know, people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient, divided by power. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker} PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Uh. Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure. Right. And {disfmarker} and uh. PhD E: Mmm. PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper, {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday. they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem PhD E: Oh, yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, but it's not {disfmarker} it's, yeah, it's {disfmarker} it's another problem. PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem. PhD E: Yeah Um. Yeah, there is th this fact actually. If you look at this um spectrum, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: What's this again? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters? PhD D: Yeah like this. Of kind like this. PhD E: Yeah. OK. So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases, and it clearly appears here, and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well, there are still appear after mel - filtering, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: It's around one hundred, one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn. Professor A: Right. PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh, add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that's smoother on low frequencies. Professor A: That's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing. PhD E: i Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. This is a separate thing. Professor A: Separate thing? PhD D: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. Professor A: Yeah. Maybe so. Um. Yeah. So, what {disfmarker} Yeah. What I was talking about was just, starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh uh, given {disfmarker} you know, given that, uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. It's uh a variant on what you're s what you're doing. The {disfmarker} I mean, the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing. But as you say it's not that smooth here. And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz, even. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy, the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments. At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue. So. {vocalsound} Anyway. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK? That's what's going on. Uh. What's up with you? Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors, how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know, uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you're doing recognition, there's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah, I've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So, um. Yeah. Just that's about it. Professor A: OK. Grad C: OK. And um so I've been looking at Avendano's work and um uh I'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he's doing, but it's {disfmarker} it's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full. You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in, but it's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take, say, a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this, most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear. It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed. He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction, which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution. So I don't really know the theory. I guess it's {disfmarker} these are called" time frequency representations" and h he's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: s so I'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me. So that that'll take some reading about the theory. I don't really know the theory. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: Oh, and um, {vocalsound} another f first step is um, so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response, say, between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK. Um. I think we're {vocalsound} sort of done. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So let's read our digits and go home. Grad C: Um. S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O's and some as zeros. Professor A: Yeah. Grad C: Is there a particular way we're supposed to read them? PhD E: There are only zeros here. Well. Professor A: No." O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" " O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" and" zero" are two ways that we say that digit. PhD E: Eee. Yeah. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} Grad B: Ha! PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: so it's {disfmarker} i PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say" O" or Professor A: No. I mean. I think people will do what they say. PhD E: It's {disfmarker} Professor A: It's OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we've done before, you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value," O" and" zero" . Grad C: Alright. PhD E: OK. Grad C: OK. PhD E: But it's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then, if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros Professor A: No, they just write {disfmarker} PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce" O" or zero {disfmarker} Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH. or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation. PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the" O" . Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it. PhD E: OK. Yeah. Professor A: See. I mean, you'd have to tell them {vocalsound}" OK when we write this, say it tha" , PhD E: OK. Professor A: you know, and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would PhD E: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways. PhD E: Yep. Grad C: OK. Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read. PhD E: Yeah, it was orthographic, so. Professor A: Yes. That's right. It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out, and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things. Grad C: Oh. OK. Professor A: That's also why they're {disfmarker} they're bunched together in these different groups. So {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} Grad C: OK. Professor A: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} Everything's fine. Grad C: OK. Professor A: OK. Actually, let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up, I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it. But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I'm talking on the phone, certainly, and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers, {vocalsound} I almost always say zero. And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it's two syllables. It's {disfmarker} it's more likely they'll understand what I said. So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's the habit I'm in, but some people say" O" and {disfmarker} Grad B: Yeah I normally say" O" cuz it's easier to say. Professor A: Yeah it's shorter. Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} So. {vocalsound} So uh. Grad B:" O" Professor A: Now, don't think about it. Grad B: Oh, no! Professor A: OK. We're done.

PhD E speculated that the recording problem probably does not have to do with noise. The difference in result with the tandem and Aurora system was too big. He suggested they could learn more by adding more data from Meeting Recorder digits.

tr-sq-747

tr-sq-747_0

Summarize the discussion on time series, reverberation and pronouncing zero Professor A: We're going? OK. Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out? Grad B: OK. Thanks. Professor A: Thanks. Grad B: Oh. Professor A: Yeah. Probably wanna get this other door, too. OK. So. Um. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today? PhD E: Uh, well, first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested. Professor A: Oh, yeah. That was kind of uh interesting. PhD E: So. Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth PhD E: Um. Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not, PhD E: Of data? Yeah. Professor A: uh, the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh it's significantly better than that, using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, with the SRI system. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that's {disfmarker} that's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data, mostly not digits, of course, but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well, yeah. In fact, mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we're just using digits for training the H M PhD E: Yeah. Right. Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states? PhD E: I guess it's {disfmarker} it's uh allophone models, Professor A: Yeah. Probably. PhD E: so, well {disfmarker} Professor A: Huh? PhD E: Yeah. I think so, because it's their very d huge, their huge system. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. But. So. There is one difference {disfmarker} Well, the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation. So there is {disfmarker} It's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation. Professor A: That's true. PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation, the error rate is around fifty percent worse, I think, if I remember. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's tha it's that much, huh? PhD E: Nnn. It's {disfmarker} Yeah. It's quite significant. Professor A: Oh. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Still. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I'd be interested to do given that, is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody's gonna do this, right? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system, right? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: We can do something like that. Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure. Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now, well, the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah, well, I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do Professor A: Yeah, but he's doing it with the same data, right? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there's {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's two things being affected. PhD E: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} Yeah. Professor A: I mean. One is that {disfmarker} that, you know, there's something simple that's wrong with the back - end. We've been playing a number of states PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh, uh, you know. But, yeah, so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but that's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: And um. PhD E: Mmm. So, yeah, we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker} Professor A: Well, you could do that, but I'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained, just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M PhD E: Ah, yeah. Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features, the features coming from our Aurora stuff. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So. PhD E: Yeah. But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it's not related, the amount of data but the um recording conditions. I don't know. Because {vocalsound} it's probably not a problem of noise, because our features are supposed to be robust to noise. Professor A: Well, yeah. PhD E: It's not a problem of channel, because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel. So {disfmarker} Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'm sorry. What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you're trying to explain? PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse. Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh. So much worse? Oh. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I uh but I'm {disfmarker} I'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean, that it has to do with the um amount of training data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's orders of magnitude off. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah but we train only on digits and it's {disfmarker} it's a digit task, so. Well. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do, they use a huge amount of data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: This is a modest amount of data. PhD E: Alright. Yeah. Professor A: So. {vocalsound} I mean, ordinarily you would say" well, given that you have enough occurrences of the digits, you can just train with digits rather than with, you know" {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: But the thing is, if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words, do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones. PhD E: Right. Mmm. Professor A: And that's just a huge amount of training for it. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So it's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that, because, as you say, this is, you know, this is near - microphone, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it's really pretty clean data. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Now, some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let's see, in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean, that could be hurting us actually, for the clean case. PhD E: Yeah. Well, actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train, Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah. PhD E: yeah. Professor A: Yeah. Cuz this is clean data, and so that's not too surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But um. Uh. So. PhD E: Well, o I guess what I meant is that well, let's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits, I guess we could have better results than this. Professor A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. PhD E: And. What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this, what's {disfmarker} what's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker} Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits? PhD E: It's point eight percent, so. Professor A: Oh. I see. PhD E: Four - Fourier. Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we're getting point eight percent, PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Professor A: and here we're getting three or four {disfmarker} three, let's see, three for this? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Yeah. Sure, but I mean, um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who've worked very hard at doing that. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also, as you point out, there's adaptation in these numbers also. So if you, you know, put the ad adap take the adaptation off, then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: And here you had, you know, something like three point four. And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: You know, I don't think there's anything magical here. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's, you know, we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data. And this is a {disfmarker} a, you know, modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. So. I mean, the HTK is an older HTK, even. So. Yeah it {disfmarker} it's not that surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that's {disfmarker} that's uh, uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number, and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It's an interesting question though, still. Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database? Um. PhD E: Yeah. th that's {disfmarker} th that's my point Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah. So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment, PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system, if we're getting point eight percent, which, yes, it's high. It's, you know, it {disfmarker} it's not awfully high, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but it's, you know {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's high. Um. {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high, or more? PhD E: Yeah, I guess. Professor A: Right? I mean, there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it's close - miked there's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all. PhD E: Well. Yeah. And acoustically, it's q it's {disfmarker} I listened. It's quite different. TI - digit is {disfmarker} it's very, very clean and it's like studio recording Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm. Professor A: Right. Yeah. So I think they were {disfmarker} PhD E: It's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all, I mean. Professor A: Bless you. Grad B: Thanks. Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I think it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} So. Yes. PhD E: Mm - hmm. But Professor A: It's {disfmarker} I think it's {disfmarker} it's the indication it's harder. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Uh. {vocalsound} Yeah and again, you know, i that's true either way. I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, the SRI results. I mean, they're much much better, but still you're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. And uh, I'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get, you know, point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits. So this {disfmarker} I think, on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it's still read. But I still think it's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face, {vocalsound} um when they're {disfmarker} they're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone. I mean. {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers, but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits. I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh, I mean, for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it's a we we it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's US. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways. So. Um. I mean. OK. That was that topic. What else we got? PhD E: Um. Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on, any Eurospeech submissions, PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: or {disfmarker}? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something, but uh. PhD E: Yeah. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and, well, {disfmarker} So, I think, yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} Now, actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora, right? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something. PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, for sure we will do something for the special session. Professor A: Yeah. Well, that's fine. So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody. so. That's fine. Um. Anything else? PhD E: Yeah. Well. So. Perhaps the point is that we've been working on {vocalsound} is, yeah, we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference. Um. So, yeah. I think, yeah, this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best, because with the new VAD, it's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: Huh. PhD E: Um. So there is this point. Uh. The problem is that it's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well, this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side, it doesn't work, because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from? PhD E: So. It's um from OGI. So it's the network trained {disfmarker} it's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units, and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs. Professor A: This is the one they had originally? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Oh. Yeah, but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space, didn't they? PhD E: Yeah. So. Yeah. But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that's small and that works fine. And. So we can {disfmarker} Professor A: Well. So that's a problem. Yeah. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn. Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely. I mean, uh i if {disfmarker} if there's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. They just want, apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard. Professor A: OK. PhD E: So. So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely. So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think. Professor A: Determined. I see. But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s" Sure, there may be some interaction, PhD E: Nnn. Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD. We could use somebody else's if it's smaller or {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: You know, as long as it did the job. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So that's good. PhD E: Uh. So there is this thing. There is um {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters, {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds Professor A: Right. PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it's sixty - five. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker} Professor A: You didn't gain anything, right? PhD E: Yeah. And. So I did that and uh it's running. So, {vocalsound} let's see what will happen. Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Um. Yeah. I think {disfmarker} Professor A: So that means logically, in principle, it should be better. So probably it'll be worse. PhD E: Yeah Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality. Yeah. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Sure. Grad C: Yeah. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah, and then we've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens. So, something that's similar to the proposal too, but with MSG stream. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: OK. PhD D: No, I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision. But only to play. And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter, the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And, well, is more or less robust. Is good for clean speech. Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech. Professor A: Huh? Mm - hmm. PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on, Professor A: Yeah. PhD D: well, I don't know. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. So, basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker} Professor A: Right. PhD D: Mm - hmm. PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker} PhD D: I have here. I have here for one signal, for one frame. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Yeah. Uh - huh. PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two, noise and unnoise, and the signal is this. Clean, and this noise. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed, the big signal is for clean. Professor A: Well, I'm s uh {disfmarker} There's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled, so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What's this axis? PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn," frame" . Professor A: Frame. PhD D: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And what's th what this? PhD D: Uh, this is uh energy, log - energy of the spectrum. Of the this is the variance, the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two, Professor A: For this one. For the noi PhD D: this big, to here, they are to signal. This is for clean and this is for noise. Professor A: Oh. There's two things on the same graph. PhD D: Yeah. I don't know. I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph, but I'm not sure. Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise? PhD E: Yeah. I think the lower one is noise. PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean. Professor A: OK. So it's harder to distinguish PhD D: It's height. Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} PhD D: Oh. I must to have. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: Pity, but I don't have two different Professor A: And presumably when there's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: Yeah, it is the height is voiced portion. PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion. PhD D: And this is the noise portion. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And this is more or less like this. But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture. Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. PhD D: This is, for example, for one frame. Professor A: Yeah PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal. And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank. Professor A: Yeah. And this is the difference? PhD D: And this is I don't know. This is not the different. This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s Professor A: No pre - emphasis? Yeah. PhD D: Not pre - emphasis. Nothing. Professor A: Yeah so it's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there. PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good. This is quite similar. this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame. ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope, {nonvocalsound} this envelope, with the mel filter bank. Professor A: Right. So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean, do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um. But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced, do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that? I mean, do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean, clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on, right? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Yeah. Well, this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker} Professor A: I see. PhD E: Yeah. PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear PhD E: Uh. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it's low values Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you probably want {disfmarker} I mean, {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection, you need a few features. Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough. But, you know, people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient, divided by power. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker} PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Uh. Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure. Right. And {disfmarker} and uh. PhD E: Mmm. PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper, {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday. they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem PhD E: Oh, yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, but it's not {disfmarker} it's, yeah, it's {disfmarker} it's another problem. PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem. PhD E: Yeah Um. Yeah, there is th this fact actually. If you look at this um spectrum, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: What's this again? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters? PhD D: Yeah like this. Of kind like this. PhD E: Yeah. OK. So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases, and it clearly appears here, and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well, there are still appear after mel - filtering, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: It's around one hundred, one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn. Professor A: Right. PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh, add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that's smoother on low frequencies. Professor A: That's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing. PhD E: i Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. This is a separate thing. Professor A: Separate thing? PhD D: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. Professor A: Yeah. Maybe so. Um. Yeah. So, what {disfmarker} Yeah. What I was talking about was just, starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh uh, given {disfmarker} you know, given that, uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. It's uh a variant on what you're s what you're doing. The {disfmarker} I mean, the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing. But as you say it's not that smooth here. And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz, even. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy, the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments. At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue. So. {vocalsound} Anyway. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK? That's what's going on. Uh. What's up with you? Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors, how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know, uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you're doing recognition, there's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah, I've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So, um. Yeah. Just that's about it. Professor A: OK. Grad C: OK. And um so I've been looking at Avendano's work and um uh I'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he's doing, but it's {disfmarker} it's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full. You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in, but it's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take, say, a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this, most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear. It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed. He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction, which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution. So I don't really know the theory. I guess it's {disfmarker} these are called" time frequency representations" and h he's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: s so I'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me. So that that'll take some reading about the theory. I don't really know the theory. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: Oh, and um, {vocalsound} another f first step is um, so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response, say, between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK. Um. I think we're {vocalsound} sort of done. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So let's read our digits and go home. Grad C: Um. S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O's and some as zeros. Professor A: Yeah. Grad C: Is there a particular way we're supposed to read them? PhD E: There are only zeros here. Well. Professor A: No." O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" " O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" and" zero" are two ways that we say that digit. PhD E: Eee. Yeah. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} Grad B: Ha! PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: so it's {disfmarker} i PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say" O" or Professor A: No. I mean. I think people will do what they say. PhD E: It's {disfmarker} Professor A: It's OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we've done before, you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value," O" and" zero" . Grad C: Alright. PhD E: OK. Grad C: OK. PhD E: But it's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then, if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros Professor A: No, they just write {disfmarker} PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce" O" or zero {disfmarker} Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH. or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation. PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the" O" . Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it. PhD E: OK. Yeah. Professor A: See. I mean, you'd have to tell them {vocalsound}" OK when we write this, say it tha" , PhD E: OK. Professor A: you know, and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would PhD E: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways. PhD E: Yep. Grad C: OK. Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read. PhD E: Yeah, it was orthographic, so. Professor A: Yes. That's right. It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out, and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things. Grad C: Oh. OK. Professor A: That's also why they're {disfmarker} they're bunched together in these different groups. So {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} Grad C: OK. Professor A: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} Everything's fine. Grad C: OK. Professor A: OK. Actually, let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up, I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it. But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I'm talking on the phone, certainly, and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers, {vocalsound} I almost always say zero. And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it's two syllables. It's {disfmarker} it's more likely they'll understand what I said. So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's the habit I'm in, but some people say" O" and {disfmarker} Grad B: Yeah I normally say" O" cuz it's easier to say. Professor A: Yeah it's shorter. Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} So. {vocalsound} So uh. Grad B:" O" Professor A: Now, don't think about it. Grad B: Oh, no! Professor A: OK. We're done.

Grad B shared some of his progress on how the modulation spectrum could speak to the intelligibility of different linguistic units. Grad C was working on reverberation and how a model may deal with varying reverberation response. The discussion ended with different pronunciation," O" and" zero" for the digit zero.

tr-sq-748

tr-sq-748_0

What did Grad B think about time series? Professor A: We're going? OK. Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out? Grad B: OK. Thanks. Professor A: Thanks. Grad B: Oh. Professor A: Yeah. Probably wanna get this other door, too. OK. So. Um. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today? PhD E: Uh, well, first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested. Professor A: Oh, yeah. That was kind of uh interesting. PhD E: So. Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth PhD E: Um. Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not, PhD E: Of data? Yeah. Professor A: uh, the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh it's significantly better than that, using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, with the SRI system. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that's {disfmarker} that's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data, mostly not digits, of course, but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well, yeah. In fact, mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we're just using digits for training the H M PhD E: Yeah. Right. Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states? PhD E: I guess it's {disfmarker} it's uh allophone models, Professor A: Yeah. Probably. PhD E: so, well {disfmarker} Professor A: Huh? PhD E: Yeah. I think so, because it's their very d huge, their huge system. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. But. So. There is one difference {disfmarker} Well, the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation. So there is {disfmarker} It's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation. Professor A: That's true. PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation, the error rate is around fifty percent worse, I think, if I remember. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's tha it's that much, huh? PhD E: Nnn. It's {disfmarker} Yeah. It's quite significant. Professor A: Oh. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Still. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I'd be interested to do given that, is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody's gonna do this, right? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system, right? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: We can do something like that. Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure. Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now, well, the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah, well, I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do Professor A: Yeah, but he's doing it with the same data, right? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there's {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's two things being affected. PhD E: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} Yeah. Professor A: I mean. One is that {disfmarker} that, you know, there's something simple that's wrong with the back - end. We've been playing a number of states PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh, uh, you know. But, yeah, so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but that's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: And um. PhD E: Mmm. So, yeah, we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker} Professor A: Well, you could do that, but I'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained, just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M PhD E: Ah, yeah. Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features, the features coming from our Aurora stuff. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So. PhD E: Yeah. But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it's not related, the amount of data but the um recording conditions. I don't know. Because {vocalsound} it's probably not a problem of noise, because our features are supposed to be robust to noise. Professor A: Well, yeah. PhD E: It's not a problem of channel, because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel. So {disfmarker} Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'm sorry. What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you're trying to explain? PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse. Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh. So much worse? Oh. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I uh but I'm {disfmarker} I'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean, that it has to do with the um amount of training data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's orders of magnitude off. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah but we train only on digits and it's {disfmarker} it's a digit task, so. Well. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do, they use a huge amount of data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: This is a modest amount of data. PhD E: Alright. Yeah. Professor A: So. {vocalsound} I mean, ordinarily you would say" well, given that you have enough occurrences of the digits, you can just train with digits rather than with, you know" {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: But the thing is, if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words, do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones. PhD E: Right. Mmm. Professor A: And that's just a huge amount of training for it. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So it's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that, because, as you say, this is, you know, this is near - microphone, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it's really pretty clean data. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Now, some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let's see, in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean, that could be hurting us actually, for the clean case. PhD E: Yeah. Well, actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train, Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah. PhD E: yeah. Professor A: Yeah. Cuz this is clean data, and so that's not too surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But um. Uh. So. PhD E: Well, o I guess what I meant is that well, let's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits, I guess we could have better results than this. Professor A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. PhD E: And. What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this, what's {disfmarker} what's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker} Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits? PhD E: It's point eight percent, so. Professor A: Oh. I see. PhD E: Four - Fourier. Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we're getting point eight percent, PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Professor A: and here we're getting three or four {disfmarker} three, let's see, three for this? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Yeah. Sure, but I mean, um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who've worked very hard at doing that. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also, as you point out, there's adaptation in these numbers also. So if you, you know, put the ad adap take the adaptation off, then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: And here you had, you know, something like three point four. And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: You know, I don't think there's anything magical here. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's, you know, we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data. And this is a {disfmarker} a, you know, modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. So. I mean, the HTK is an older HTK, even. So. Yeah it {disfmarker} it's not that surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that's {disfmarker} that's uh, uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number, and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It's an interesting question though, still. Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database? Um. PhD E: Yeah. th that's {disfmarker} th that's my point Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah. So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment, PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system, if we're getting point eight percent, which, yes, it's high. It's, you know, it {disfmarker} it's not awfully high, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but it's, you know {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's high. Um. {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high, or more? PhD E: Yeah, I guess. Professor A: Right? I mean, there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it's close - miked there's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all. PhD E: Well. Yeah. And acoustically, it's q it's {disfmarker} I listened. It's quite different. TI - digit is {disfmarker} it's very, very clean and it's like studio recording Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm. Professor A: Right. Yeah. So I think they were {disfmarker} PhD E: It's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all, I mean. Professor A: Bless you. Grad B: Thanks. Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I think it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} So. Yes. PhD E: Mm - hmm. But Professor A: It's {disfmarker} I think it's {disfmarker} it's the indication it's harder. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Uh. {vocalsound} Yeah and again, you know, i that's true either way. I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, the SRI results. I mean, they're much much better, but still you're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. And uh, I'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get, you know, point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits. So this {disfmarker} I think, on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it's still read. But I still think it's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face, {vocalsound} um when they're {disfmarker} they're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone. I mean. {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers, but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits. I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh, I mean, for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it's a we we it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's US. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways. So. Um. I mean. OK. That was that topic. What else we got? PhD E: Um. Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on, any Eurospeech submissions, PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: or {disfmarker}? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something, but uh. PhD E: Yeah. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and, well, {disfmarker} So, I think, yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} Now, actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora, right? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something. PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, for sure we will do something for the special session. Professor A: Yeah. Well, that's fine. So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody. so. That's fine. Um. Anything else? PhD E: Yeah. Well. So. Perhaps the point is that we've been working on {vocalsound} is, yeah, we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference. Um. So, yeah. I think, yeah, this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best, because with the new VAD, it's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: Huh. PhD E: Um. So there is this point. Uh. The problem is that it's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well, this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side, it doesn't work, because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from? PhD E: So. It's um from OGI. So it's the network trained {disfmarker} it's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units, and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs. Professor A: This is the one they had originally? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Oh. Yeah, but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space, didn't they? PhD E: Yeah. So. Yeah. But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that's small and that works fine. And. So we can {disfmarker} Professor A: Well. So that's a problem. Yeah. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn. Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely. I mean, uh i if {disfmarker} if there's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. They just want, apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard. Professor A: OK. PhD E: So. So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely. So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think. Professor A: Determined. I see. But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s" Sure, there may be some interaction, PhD E: Nnn. Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD. We could use somebody else's if it's smaller or {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: You know, as long as it did the job. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So that's good. PhD E: Uh. So there is this thing. There is um {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters, {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds Professor A: Right. PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it's sixty - five. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker} Professor A: You didn't gain anything, right? PhD E: Yeah. And. So I did that and uh it's running. So, {vocalsound} let's see what will happen. Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Um. Yeah. I think {disfmarker} Professor A: So that means logically, in principle, it should be better. So probably it'll be worse. PhD E: Yeah Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality. Yeah. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Sure. Grad C: Yeah. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah, and then we've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens. So, something that's similar to the proposal too, but with MSG stream. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: OK. PhD D: No, I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision. But only to play. And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter, the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And, well, is more or less robust. Is good for clean speech. Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech. Professor A: Huh? Mm - hmm. PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on, Professor A: Yeah. PhD D: well, I don't know. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. So, basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker} Professor A: Right. PhD D: Mm - hmm. PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker} PhD D: I have here. I have here for one signal, for one frame. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Yeah. Uh - huh. PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two, noise and unnoise, and the signal is this. Clean, and this noise. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed, the big signal is for clean. Professor A: Well, I'm s uh {disfmarker} There's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled, so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What's this axis? PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn," frame" . Professor A: Frame. PhD D: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And what's th what this? PhD D: Uh, this is uh energy, log - energy of the spectrum. Of the this is the variance, the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two, Professor A: For this one. For the noi PhD D: this big, to here, they are to signal. This is for clean and this is for noise. Professor A: Oh. There's two things on the same graph. PhD D: Yeah. I don't know. I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph, but I'm not sure. Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise? PhD E: Yeah. I think the lower one is noise. PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean. Professor A: OK. So it's harder to distinguish PhD D: It's height. Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} PhD D: Oh. I must to have. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: Pity, but I don't have two different Professor A: And presumably when there's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: Yeah, it is the height is voiced portion. PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion. PhD D: And this is the noise portion. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And this is more or less like this. But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture. Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. PhD D: This is, for example, for one frame. Professor A: Yeah PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal. And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank. Professor A: Yeah. And this is the difference? PhD D: And this is I don't know. This is not the different. This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s Professor A: No pre - emphasis? Yeah. PhD D: Not pre - emphasis. Nothing. Professor A: Yeah so it's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there. PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good. This is quite similar. this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame. ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope, {nonvocalsound} this envelope, with the mel filter bank. Professor A: Right. So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean, do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um. But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced, do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that? I mean, do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean, clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on, right? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Yeah. Well, this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker} Professor A: I see. PhD E: Yeah. PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear PhD E: Uh. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it's low values Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you probably want {disfmarker} I mean, {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection, you need a few features. Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough. But, you know, people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient, divided by power. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker} PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Uh. Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure. Right. And {disfmarker} and uh. PhD E: Mmm. PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper, {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday. they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem PhD E: Oh, yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, but it's not {disfmarker} it's, yeah, it's {disfmarker} it's another problem. PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem. PhD E: Yeah Um. Yeah, there is th this fact actually. If you look at this um spectrum, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: What's this again? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters? PhD D: Yeah like this. Of kind like this. PhD E: Yeah. OK. So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases, and it clearly appears here, and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well, there are still appear after mel - filtering, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: It's around one hundred, one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn. Professor A: Right. PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh, add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that's smoother on low frequencies. Professor A: That's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing. PhD E: i Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. This is a separate thing. Professor A: Separate thing? PhD D: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. Professor A: Yeah. Maybe so. Um. Yeah. So, what {disfmarker} Yeah. What I was talking about was just, starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh uh, given {disfmarker} you know, given that, uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. It's uh a variant on what you're s what you're doing. The {disfmarker} I mean, the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing. But as you say it's not that smooth here. And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz, even. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy, the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments. At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue. So. {vocalsound} Anyway. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK? That's what's going on. Uh. What's up with you? Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors, how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know, uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you're doing recognition, there's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah, I've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So, um. Yeah. Just that's about it. Professor A: OK. Grad C: OK. And um so I've been looking at Avendano's work and um uh I'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he's doing, but it's {disfmarker} it's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full. You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in, but it's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take, say, a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this, most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear. It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed. He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction, which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution. So I don't really know the theory. I guess it's {disfmarker} these are called" time frequency representations" and h he's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: s so I'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me. So that that'll take some reading about the theory. I don't really know the theory. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: Oh, and um, {vocalsound} another f first step is um, so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response, say, between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK. Um. I think we're {vocalsound} sort of done. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So let's read our digits and go home. Grad C: Um. S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O's and some as zeros. Professor A: Yeah. Grad C: Is there a particular way we're supposed to read them? PhD E: There are only zeros here. Well. Professor A: No." O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" " O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" and" zero" are two ways that we say that digit. PhD E: Eee. Yeah. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} Grad B: Ha! PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: so it's {disfmarker} i PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say" O" or Professor A: No. I mean. I think people will do what they say. PhD E: It's {disfmarker} Professor A: It's OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we've done before, you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value," O" and" zero" . Grad C: Alright. PhD E: OK. Grad C: OK. PhD E: But it's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then, if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros Professor A: No, they just write {disfmarker} PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce" O" or zero {disfmarker} Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH. or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation. PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the" O" . Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it. PhD E: OK. Yeah. Professor A: See. I mean, you'd have to tell them {vocalsound}" OK when we write this, say it tha" , PhD E: OK. Professor A: you know, and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would PhD E: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways. PhD E: Yep. Grad C: OK. Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read. PhD E: Yeah, it was orthographic, so. Professor A: Yes. That's right. It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out, and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things. Grad C: Oh. OK. Professor A: That's also why they're {disfmarker} they're bunched together in these different groups. So {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} Grad C: OK. Professor A: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} Everything's fine. Grad C: OK. Professor A: OK. Actually, let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up, I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it. But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I'm talking on the phone, certainly, and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers, {vocalsound} I almost always say zero. And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it's two syllables. It's {disfmarker} it's more likely they'll understand what I said. So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's the habit I'm in, but some people say" O" and {disfmarker} Grad B: Yeah I normally say" O" cuz it's easier to say. Professor A: Yeah it's shorter. Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} So. {vocalsound} So uh. Grad B:" O" Professor A: Now, don't think about it. Grad B: Oh, no! Professor A: OK. We're done.

Grad B was working with Larry Saul on factorial HMM and doing inference with them. Grad B thought that perhaps modulation spectrum could be used on features and sub-bands to advance this work.

tr-sq-749

tr-sq-749_0

What did the professor think about pronouncing zero? Professor A: We're going? OK. Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out? Grad B: OK. Thanks. Professor A: Thanks. Grad B: Oh. Professor A: Yeah. Probably wanna get this other door, too. OK. So. Um. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today? PhD E: Uh, well, first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested. Professor A: Oh, yeah. That was kind of uh interesting. PhD E: So. Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth PhD E: Um. Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not, PhD E: Of data? Yeah. Professor A: uh, the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh it's significantly better than that, using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, with the SRI system. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that's {disfmarker} that's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data, mostly not digits, of course, but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well, yeah. In fact, mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we're just using digits for training the H M PhD E: Yeah. Right. Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states? PhD E: I guess it's {disfmarker} it's uh allophone models, Professor A: Yeah. Probably. PhD E: so, well {disfmarker} Professor A: Huh? PhD E: Yeah. I think so, because it's their very d huge, their huge system. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. But. So. There is one difference {disfmarker} Well, the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation. So there is {disfmarker} It's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation. Professor A: That's true. PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation, the error rate is around fifty percent worse, I think, if I remember. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's tha it's that much, huh? PhD E: Nnn. It's {disfmarker} Yeah. It's quite significant. Professor A: Oh. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Still. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I'd be interested to do given that, is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody's gonna do this, right? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system, right? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: We can do something like that. Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure. Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now, well, the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah, well, I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do Professor A: Yeah, but he's doing it with the same data, right? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there's {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's two things being affected. PhD E: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} Yeah. Professor A: I mean. One is that {disfmarker} that, you know, there's something simple that's wrong with the back - end. We've been playing a number of states PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh, uh, you know. But, yeah, so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but that's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: And um. PhD E: Mmm. So, yeah, we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker} Professor A: Well, you could do that, but I'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained, just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M PhD E: Ah, yeah. Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features, the features coming from our Aurora stuff. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So. PhD E: Yeah. But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it's not related, the amount of data but the um recording conditions. I don't know. Because {vocalsound} it's probably not a problem of noise, because our features are supposed to be robust to noise. Professor A: Well, yeah. PhD E: It's not a problem of channel, because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel. So {disfmarker} Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'm sorry. What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you're trying to explain? PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse. Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh. So much worse? Oh. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I uh but I'm {disfmarker} I'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean, that it has to do with the um amount of training data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's orders of magnitude off. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah but we train only on digits and it's {disfmarker} it's a digit task, so. Well. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do, they use a huge amount of data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: This is a modest amount of data. PhD E: Alright. Yeah. Professor A: So. {vocalsound} I mean, ordinarily you would say" well, given that you have enough occurrences of the digits, you can just train with digits rather than with, you know" {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: But the thing is, if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words, do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones. PhD E: Right. Mmm. Professor A: And that's just a huge amount of training for it. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So it's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that, because, as you say, this is, you know, this is near - microphone, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it's really pretty clean data. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Now, some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let's see, in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean, that could be hurting us actually, for the clean case. PhD E: Yeah. Well, actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train, Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah. PhD E: yeah. Professor A: Yeah. Cuz this is clean data, and so that's not too surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But um. Uh. So. PhD E: Well, o I guess what I meant is that well, let's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits, I guess we could have better results than this. Professor A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. PhD E: And. What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this, what's {disfmarker} what's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker} Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits? PhD E: It's point eight percent, so. Professor A: Oh. I see. PhD E: Four - Fourier. Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we're getting point eight percent, PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Professor A: and here we're getting three or four {disfmarker} three, let's see, three for this? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Yeah. Sure, but I mean, um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who've worked very hard at doing that. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also, as you point out, there's adaptation in these numbers also. So if you, you know, put the ad adap take the adaptation off, then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: And here you had, you know, something like three point four. And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: You know, I don't think there's anything magical here. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's, you know, we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data. And this is a {disfmarker} a, you know, modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. So. I mean, the HTK is an older HTK, even. So. Yeah it {disfmarker} it's not that surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that's {disfmarker} that's uh, uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number, and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It's an interesting question though, still. Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database? Um. PhD E: Yeah. th that's {disfmarker} th that's my point Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah. So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment, PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system, if we're getting point eight percent, which, yes, it's high. It's, you know, it {disfmarker} it's not awfully high, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but it's, you know {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's high. Um. {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high, or more? PhD E: Yeah, I guess. Professor A: Right? I mean, there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it's close - miked there's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all. PhD E: Well. Yeah. And acoustically, it's q it's {disfmarker} I listened. It's quite different. TI - digit is {disfmarker} it's very, very clean and it's like studio recording Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm. Professor A: Right. Yeah. So I think they were {disfmarker} PhD E: It's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all, I mean. Professor A: Bless you. Grad B: Thanks. Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I think it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} So. Yes. PhD E: Mm - hmm. But Professor A: It's {disfmarker} I think it's {disfmarker} it's the indication it's harder. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Uh. {vocalsound} Yeah and again, you know, i that's true either way. I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, the SRI results. I mean, they're much much better, but still you're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. And uh, I'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get, you know, point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits. So this {disfmarker} I think, on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it's still read. But I still think it's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face, {vocalsound} um when they're {disfmarker} they're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone. I mean. {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers, but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits. I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh, I mean, for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it's a we we it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's US. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways. So. Um. I mean. OK. That was that topic. What else we got? PhD E: Um. Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on, any Eurospeech submissions, PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: or {disfmarker}? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something, but uh. PhD E: Yeah. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and, well, {disfmarker} So, I think, yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} Now, actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora, right? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something. PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, for sure we will do something for the special session. Professor A: Yeah. Well, that's fine. So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody. so. That's fine. Um. Anything else? PhD E: Yeah. Well. So. Perhaps the point is that we've been working on {vocalsound} is, yeah, we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference. Um. So, yeah. I think, yeah, this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best, because with the new VAD, it's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: Huh. PhD E: Um. So there is this point. Uh. The problem is that it's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well, this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side, it doesn't work, because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from? PhD E: So. It's um from OGI. So it's the network trained {disfmarker} it's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units, and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs. Professor A: This is the one they had originally? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Oh. Yeah, but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space, didn't they? PhD E: Yeah. So. Yeah. But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that's small and that works fine. And. So we can {disfmarker} Professor A: Well. So that's a problem. Yeah. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn. Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely. I mean, uh i if {disfmarker} if there's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. They just want, apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard. Professor A: OK. PhD E: So. So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely. So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think. Professor A: Determined. I see. But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s" Sure, there may be some interaction, PhD E: Nnn. Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD. We could use somebody else's if it's smaller or {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: You know, as long as it did the job. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So that's good. PhD E: Uh. So there is this thing. There is um {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters, {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds Professor A: Right. PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it's sixty - five. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker} Professor A: You didn't gain anything, right? PhD E: Yeah. And. So I did that and uh it's running. So, {vocalsound} let's see what will happen. Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Um. Yeah. I think {disfmarker} Professor A: So that means logically, in principle, it should be better. So probably it'll be worse. PhD E: Yeah Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality. Yeah. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Sure. Grad C: Yeah. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah, and then we've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens. So, something that's similar to the proposal too, but with MSG stream. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: OK. PhD D: No, I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision. But only to play. And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter, the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And, well, is more or less robust. Is good for clean speech. Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech. Professor A: Huh? Mm - hmm. PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on, Professor A: Yeah. PhD D: well, I don't know. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. So, basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker} Professor A: Right. PhD D: Mm - hmm. PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker} PhD D: I have here. I have here for one signal, for one frame. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Yeah. Uh - huh. PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two, noise and unnoise, and the signal is this. Clean, and this noise. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed, the big signal is for clean. Professor A: Well, I'm s uh {disfmarker} There's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled, so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What's this axis? PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn," frame" . Professor A: Frame. PhD D: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And what's th what this? PhD D: Uh, this is uh energy, log - energy of the spectrum. Of the this is the variance, the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two, Professor A: For this one. For the noi PhD D: this big, to here, they are to signal. This is for clean and this is for noise. Professor A: Oh. There's two things on the same graph. PhD D: Yeah. I don't know. I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph, but I'm not sure. Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise? PhD E: Yeah. I think the lower one is noise. PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean. Professor A: OK. So it's harder to distinguish PhD D: It's height. Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} PhD D: Oh. I must to have. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: Pity, but I don't have two different Professor A: And presumably when there's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: Yeah, it is the height is voiced portion. PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion. PhD D: And this is the noise portion. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And this is more or less like this. But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture. Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. PhD D: This is, for example, for one frame. Professor A: Yeah PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal. And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank. Professor A: Yeah. And this is the difference? PhD D: And this is I don't know. This is not the different. This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s Professor A: No pre - emphasis? Yeah. PhD D: Not pre - emphasis. Nothing. Professor A: Yeah so it's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there. PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good. This is quite similar. this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame. ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope, {nonvocalsound} this envelope, with the mel filter bank. Professor A: Right. So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean, do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um. But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced, do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that? I mean, do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean, clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on, right? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Yeah. Well, this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker} Professor A: I see. PhD E: Yeah. PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear PhD E: Uh. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it's low values Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you probably want {disfmarker} I mean, {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection, you need a few features. Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough. But, you know, people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient, divided by power. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker} PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Uh. Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure. Right. And {disfmarker} and uh. PhD E: Mmm. PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper, {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday. they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem PhD E: Oh, yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, but it's not {disfmarker} it's, yeah, it's {disfmarker} it's another problem. PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem. PhD E: Yeah Um. Yeah, there is th this fact actually. If you look at this um spectrum, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: What's this again? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters? PhD D: Yeah like this. Of kind like this. PhD E: Yeah. OK. So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases, and it clearly appears here, and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well, there are still appear after mel - filtering, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: It's around one hundred, one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn. Professor A: Right. PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh, add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that's smoother on low frequencies. Professor A: That's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing. PhD E: i Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. This is a separate thing. Professor A: Separate thing? PhD D: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. Professor A: Yeah. Maybe so. Um. Yeah. So, what {disfmarker} Yeah. What I was talking about was just, starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh uh, given {disfmarker} you know, given that, uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. It's uh a variant on what you're s what you're doing. The {disfmarker} I mean, the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing. But as you say it's not that smooth here. And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz, even. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy, the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments. At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue. So. {vocalsound} Anyway. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK? That's what's going on. Uh. What's up with you? Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors, how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know, uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you're doing recognition, there's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah, I've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So, um. Yeah. Just that's about it. Professor A: OK. Grad C: OK. And um so I've been looking at Avendano's work and um uh I'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he's doing, but it's {disfmarker} it's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full. You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in, but it's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take, say, a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this, most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear. It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed. He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction, which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution. So I don't really know the theory. I guess it's {disfmarker} these are called" time frequency representations" and h he's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: s so I'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me. So that that'll take some reading about the theory. I don't really know the theory. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: Oh, and um, {vocalsound} another f first step is um, so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response, say, between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK. Um. I think we're {vocalsound} sort of done. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So let's read our digits and go home. Grad C: Um. S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O's and some as zeros. Professor A: Yeah. Grad C: Is there a particular way we're supposed to read them? PhD E: There are only zeros here. Well. Professor A: No." O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" " O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" and" zero" are two ways that we say that digit. PhD E: Eee. Yeah. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} Grad B: Ha! PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: so it's {disfmarker} i PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say" O" or Professor A: No. I mean. I think people will do what they say. PhD E: It's {disfmarker} Professor A: It's OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we've done before, you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value," O" and" zero" . Grad C: Alright. PhD E: OK. Grad C: OK. PhD E: But it's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then, if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros Professor A: No, they just write {disfmarker} PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce" O" or zero {disfmarker} Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH. or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation. PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the" O" . Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it. PhD E: OK. Yeah. Professor A: See. I mean, you'd have to tell them {vocalsound}" OK when we write this, say it tha" , PhD E: OK. Professor A: you know, and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would PhD E: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways. PhD E: Yep. Grad C: OK. Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read. PhD E: Yeah, it was orthographic, so. Professor A: Yes. That's right. It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out, and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things. Grad C: Oh. OK. Professor A: That's also why they're {disfmarker} they're bunched together in these different groups. So {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} Grad C: OK. Professor A: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} Everything's fine. Grad C: OK. Professor A: OK. Actually, let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up, I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it. But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I'm talking on the phone, certainly, and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers, {vocalsound} I almost always say zero. And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it's two syllables. It's {disfmarker} it's more likely they'll understand what I said. So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's the habit I'm in, but some people say" O" and {disfmarker} Grad B: Yeah I normally say" O" cuz it's easier to say. Professor A: Yeah it's shorter. Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} So. {vocalsound} So uh. Grad B:" O" Professor A: Now, don't think about it. Grad B: Oh, no! Professor A: OK. We're done.

The professor pointed out that zero is said in two ways," O" and" Zero." So, when recording digits, people are told which way to pronounce it.

tr-gq-750

tr-gq-750_0

Summarize the meeting Professor A: We're going? OK. Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out? Grad B: OK. Thanks. Professor A: Thanks. Grad B: Oh. Professor A: Yeah. Probably wanna get this other door, too. OK. So. Um. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today? PhD E: Uh, well, first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested. Professor A: Oh, yeah. That was kind of uh interesting. PhD E: So. Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth PhD E: Um. Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not, PhD E: Of data? Yeah. Professor A: uh, the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh it's significantly better than that, using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh, with the SRI system. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that's {disfmarker} that's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data, mostly not digits, of course, but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well, yeah. In fact, mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we're just using digits for training the H M PhD E: Yeah. Right. Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states? PhD E: I guess it's {disfmarker} it's uh allophone models, Professor A: Yeah. Probably. PhD E: so, well {disfmarker} Professor A: Huh? PhD E: Yeah. I think so, because it's their very d huge, their huge system. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. But. So. There is one difference {disfmarker} Well, the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation. So there is {disfmarker} It's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation. Professor A: That's true. PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation, the error rate is around fifty percent worse, I think, if I remember. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's tha it's that much, huh? PhD E: Nnn. It's {disfmarker} Yeah. It's quite significant. Professor A: Oh. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Still. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I'd be interested to do given that, is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody's gonna do this, right? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system, right? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: We can do something like that. Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure. Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now, well, the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah, well, I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do Professor A: Yeah, but he's doing it with the same data, right? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there's {disfmarker} there's {disfmarker} there's two things being affected. PhD E: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} Yeah. Professor A: I mean. One is that {disfmarker} that, you know, there's something simple that's wrong with the back - end. We've been playing a number of states PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh, uh, you know. But, yeah, so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but that's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: And um. PhD E: Mmm. So, yeah, we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker} Professor A: Well, you could do that, but I'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained, just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M PhD E: Ah, yeah. Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features, the features coming from our Aurora stuff. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So. PhD E: Yeah. But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it's not related, the amount of data but the um recording conditions. I don't know. Because {vocalsound} it's probably not a problem of noise, because our features are supposed to be robust to noise. Professor A: Well, yeah. PhD E: It's not a problem of channel, because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel. So {disfmarker} Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I'm sorry. What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you're trying to explain? PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse. Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh. So much worse? Oh. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I uh but I'm {disfmarker} I'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean, that it has to do with the um amount of training data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Professor A: It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's orders of magnitude off. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah but we train only on digits and it's {disfmarker} it's a digit task, so. Well. Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do, they use a huge amount of data. PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: This is a modest amount of data. PhD E: Alright. Yeah. Professor A: So. {vocalsound} I mean, ordinarily you would say" well, given that you have enough occurrences of the digits, you can just train with digits rather than with, you know" {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Professor A: But the thing is, if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words, do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones. PhD E: Right. Mmm. Professor A: And that's just a huge amount of training for it. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So it's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that, because, as you say, this is, you know, this is near - microphone, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it's really pretty clean data. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Now, some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let's see, in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean, that could be hurting us actually, for the clean case. PhD E: Yeah. Well, actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train, Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah. PhD E: yeah. Professor A: Yeah. Cuz this is clean data, and so that's not too surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But um. Uh. So. PhD E: Well, o I guess what I meant is that well, let's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits, I guess we could have better results than this. Professor A: Uh - huh. Mm - hmm. PhD E: And. What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this, what's {disfmarker} what's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker} Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits? PhD E: It's point eight percent, so. Professor A: Oh. I see. PhD E: Four - Fourier. Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we're getting point eight percent, PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Professor A: and here we're getting three or four {disfmarker} three, let's see, three for this? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Yeah. Sure, but I mean, um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who've worked very hard at doing that. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also, as you point out, there's adaptation in these numbers also. So if you, you know, put the ad adap take the adaptation off, then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: And here you had, you know, something like three point four. And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: You know, I don't think there's anything magical here. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: It's, you know, we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data. And this is a {disfmarker} a, you know, modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. So. I mean, the HTK is an older HTK, even. So. Yeah it {disfmarker} it's not that surprising. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that's {disfmarker} that's uh, uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number, and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It's an interesting question though, still. Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database? Um. PhD E: Yeah. th that's {disfmarker} th that's my point Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah. So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment, PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm. Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system, if we're getting point eight percent, which, yes, it's high. It's, you know, it {disfmarker} it's not awfully high, PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: but it's, you know {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's high. Um. {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high, or more? PhD E: Yeah, I guess. Professor A: Right? I mean, there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it's close - miked there's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all. PhD E: Well. Yeah. And acoustically, it's q it's {disfmarker} I listened. It's quite different. TI - digit is {disfmarker} it's very, very clean and it's like studio recording Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm. Professor A: Right. Yeah. So I think they were {disfmarker} PhD E: It's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all, I mean. Professor A: Bless you. Grad B: Thanks. Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah. I think it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} So. Yes. PhD E: Mm - hmm. But Professor A: It's {disfmarker} I think it's {disfmarker} it's the indication it's harder. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Uh. {vocalsound} Yeah and again, you know, i that's true either way. I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, the SRI results. I mean, they're much much better, but still you're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. And uh, I'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get, you know, point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits. So this {disfmarker} I think, on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it's still read. But I still think it's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face, {vocalsound} um when they're {disfmarker} they're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone. I mean. {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers, but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits. I'm {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} I'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh, I mean, for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it's a we we it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's US. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways. So. Um. I mean. OK. That was that topic. What else we got? PhD E: Um. Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on, any Eurospeech submissions, PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: or {disfmarker}? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something, but uh. PhD E: Yeah. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and, well, {disfmarker} So, I think, yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up. Professor A: Um. {vocalsound} Now, actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora, right? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something. PhD E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, for sure we will do something for the special session. Professor A: Yeah. Well, that's fine. So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody. so. That's fine. Um. Anything else? PhD E: Yeah. Well. So. Perhaps the point is that we've been working on {vocalsound} is, yeah, we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference. Um. So, yeah. I think, yeah, this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best, because with the new VAD, it's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: Huh. PhD E: Um. So there is this point. Uh. The problem is that it's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well, this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side, it doesn't work, because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from? PhD E: So. It's um from OGI. So it's the network trained {disfmarker} it's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units, and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs. Professor A: This is the one they had originally? PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: Oh. Yeah, but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space, didn't they? PhD E: Yeah. So. Yeah. But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that's small and that works fine. And. So we can {disfmarker} Professor A: Well. So that's a problem. Yeah. PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn. Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely. I mean, uh i if {disfmarker} if there's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker} PhD E: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. They just want, apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard. Professor A: OK. PhD E: So. So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely. So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think. Professor A: Determined. I see. But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s" Sure, there may be some interaction, PhD E: Nnn. Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD. We could use somebody else's if it's smaller or {disfmarker} PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: You know, as long as it did the job. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So that's good. PhD E: Uh. So there is this thing. There is um {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters, {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds Professor A: Right. PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it's sixty - five. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker} Professor A: You didn't gain anything, right? PhD E: Yeah. And. So I did that and uh it's running. So, {vocalsound} let's see what will happen. Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Um. Yeah. I think {disfmarker} Professor A: So that means logically, in principle, it should be better. So probably it'll be worse. PhD E: Yeah Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality. Yeah. OK. PhD E: Yeah. Sure. Grad C: Yeah. Professor A: OK. PhD E: Yeah, and then we've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens. So, something that's similar to the proposal too, but with MSG stream. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: OK. PhD D: No, I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision. But only to play. And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter, the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And, well, is more or less robust. Is good for clean speech. Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech. Professor A: Huh? Mm - hmm. PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on, Professor A: Yeah. PhD D: well, I don't know. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. So, basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker} Professor A: Right. PhD D: Mm - hmm. PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker} PhD D: I have here. I have here for one signal, for one frame. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Yeah. Uh - huh. PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two, noise and unnoise, and the signal is this. Clean, and this noise. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed, the big signal is for clean. Professor A: Well, I'm s uh {disfmarker} There's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled, so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What's this axis? PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn," frame" . Professor A: Frame. PhD D: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And what's th what this? PhD D: Uh, this is uh energy, log - energy of the spectrum. Of the this is the variance, the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two, Professor A: For this one. For the noi PhD D: this big, to here, they are to signal. This is for clean and this is for noise. Professor A: Oh. There's two things on the same graph. PhD D: Yeah. I don't know. I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph, but I'm not sure. Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise? PhD E: Yeah. I think the lower one is noise. PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean. Professor A: OK. So it's harder to distinguish PhD D: It's height. Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} PhD D: Oh. I must to have. Professor A: Uh. PhD D: Pity, but I don't have two different Professor A: And presumably when there's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: Yeah, it is the height is voiced portion. PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion. PhD D: And this is the noise portion. Professor A: Uh - huh. PhD D: And this is more or less like this. But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture. Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. PhD D: This is, for example, for one frame. Professor A: Yeah PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal. And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank. Professor A: Yeah. And this is the difference? PhD D: And this is I don't know. This is not the different. This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s Professor A: No pre - emphasis? Yeah. PhD D: Not pre - emphasis. Nothing. Professor A: Yeah so it's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there. PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good. This is quite similar. this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame. ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope, {nonvocalsound} this envelope, with the mel filter bank. Professor A: Right. So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean, do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um. But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced, do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that? I mean, do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean, clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on, right? PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Um. PhD E: Yeah. Well, this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker} Professor A: I see. PhD E: Yeah. PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear PhD E: Uh. Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it's low values Professor A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you probably want {disfmarker} I mean, {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection, you need a few features. Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough. But, you know, people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient, divided by power. PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker} PhD E: Mmm. Professor A: Uh. Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure. Right. And {disfmarker} and uh. PhD E: Mmm. PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper, {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday. they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem PhD E: Oh, yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, but it's not {disfmarker} it's, yeah, it's {disfmarker} it's another problem. PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem. PhD E: Yeah Um. Yeah, there is th this fact actually. If you look at this um spectrum, Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: What's this again? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters? PhD D: Yeah like this. Of kind like this. PhD E: Yeah. OK. So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases, and it clearly appears here, and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well, there are still appear after mel - filtering, Professor A: Mm - hmm. PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: It's around one hundred, one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn. Professor A: Right. PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh, add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that's smoother on low frequencies. Professor A: That's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing. PhD E: i Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: Yeah. This is a separate thing. Professor A: Separate thing? PhD D: Yeah. Professor A: Yeah. PhD E: And. Professor A: Yeah. Maybe so. Um. Yeah. So, what {disfmarker} Yeah. What I was talking about was just, starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch. PhD E: Yeah. Mm - hmm. Professor A: And uh uh, given {disfmarker} you know, given that, uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: Uh. It's uh a variant on what you're s what you're doing. The {disfmarker} I mean, the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing. But as you say it's not that smooth here. And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz, even. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy, the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments. At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue. So. {vocalsound} Anyway. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK? That's what's going on. Uh. What's up with you? Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors, how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know, uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you're doing recognition, there's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data. Professor A: Hmm. Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah, I've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things. Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands Professor A: Mm - hmm. Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So, um. Yeah. Just that's about it. Professor A: OK. Grad C: OK. And um so I've been looking at Avendano's work and um uh I'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he's doing, but it's {disfmarker} it's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full. You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in, but it's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take, say, a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this, most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear. It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed. He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction, which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution. So I don't really know the theory. I guess it's {disfmarker} these are called" time frequency representations" and h he's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: s so I'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me. So that that'll take some reading about the theory. I don't really know the theory. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: Oh, and um, {vocalsound} another f first step is um, so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response, say, between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing. PhD E: Mm - hmm. Professor A: OK. Um. I think we're {vocalsound} sort of done. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: So let's read our digits and go home. Grad C: Um. S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O's and some as zeros. Professor A: Yeah. Grad C: Is there a particular way we're supposed to read them? PhD E: There are only zeros here. Well. Professor A: No." O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" " O" {disfmarker}" O" {disfmarker}" O" and" zero" are two ways that we say that digit. PhD E: Eee. Yeah. Professor A: So it's {disfmarker} Grad B: Ha! PhD E: But {disfmarker} Professor A: so it's {disfmarker} i PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say" O" or Professor A: No. I mean. I think people will do what they say. PhD E: It's {disfmarker} Professor A: It's OK. PhD E: Yeah. Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we've done before, you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value," O" and" zero" . Grad C: Alright. PhD E: OK. Grad C: OK. PhD E: But it's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then, if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros Professor A: No, they just write {disfmarker} PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce" O" or zero {disfmarker} Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH. or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation. PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the" O" . Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it. PhD E: OK. Yeah. Professor A: See. I mean, you'd have to tell them {vocalsound}" OK when we write this, say it tha" , PhD E: OK. Professor A: you know, and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would PhD E: Mm - hmm. Yeah. Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways. PhD E: Yep. Grad C: OK. Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read. PhD E: Yeah, it was orthographic, so. Professor A: Yes. That's right. It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out, and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things. Grad C: Oh. OK. Professor A: That's also why they're {disfmarker} they're bunched together in these different groups. So {disfmarker} so it's {disfmarker} Grad C: OK. Professor A: Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} Everything's fine. Grad C: OK. Professor A: OK. Actually, let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up, I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it. But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I'm talking on the phone, certainly, and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers, {vocalsound} I almost always say zero. And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it's two syllables. It's {disfmarker} it's more likely they'll understand what I said. So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that's the habit I'm in, but some people say" O" and {disfmarker} Grad B: Yeah I normally say" O" cuz it's easier to say. Professor A: Yeah it's shorter. Yeah. So it's {disfmarker} So. {vocalsound} So uh. Grad B:" O" Professor A: Now, don't think about it. Grad B: Oh, no! Professor A: OK. We're done.

The meeting focused on the results from the existing model, speeding up the backend for feature direction, and a few tangential topics being developed for future exploration. The team was unsure why their model was not performing as well as they expected it to, and they suspected that their smaller dataset might be at fault. They also discussed how they could improve the performance of the backend model by improving feature detection. The meeting ended with some students sharing the tangential fields they were exploring and a brief discussion on the different pronunciations of zero.

tr-sq-751

tr-sq-751_0

Summarize presentations on the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials of user interface, trend watching. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six. Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching. Industrial Designer: That would be me. User Interface: Yep. Industrial Designer: Alright. Well. Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go. Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels, Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound} Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing? Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet. Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker} Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure, Marketing: but I've no idea. Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures. Marketing: Sounds good. Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Space-age remote. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element. Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly. Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, n Project Manager: no idea, okay. Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions? User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so. Industrial Designer: No? Okay. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look Project Manager: Thank you, perfect. Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thanks. Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book, Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook, Project Manager: then don't worry about that. Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker} Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know. Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are. User Interface: Jess. Industrial Designer: G oh, geez. User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So basically, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then? User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make. Industrial Designer:'Kay. Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and so User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it. Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying? Project Manager: Well Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes. Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box, User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way, Project Manager: mm-hmm. User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can. Industrial Designer: Oh, good point. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Um I'm not sure. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing. Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Is that going on? Okay. Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually. Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press, Project Manager: Eight. Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me. Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough. Industrial Designer: No signal. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: There we are. Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: S sweet. Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah. Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um. Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on? Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all? User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands. Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker} Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that, User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker} Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound} Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them, Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: li Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something. Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped. Project Manager: Could they be smelly? User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God. Project Manager: I don't know. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Or carrot shaped, Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Project Manager: mm. Industrial Designer: isn't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button, Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits. User Interface: or {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah. Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit. Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Kind of like a potato. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Might {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think. Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little. Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button. Project Manager: Harder to push. User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers? Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb. Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it. Project Manager: Don't you think? Industrial Designer: No Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized. Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around. Industrial Designer: Jus Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them, Marketing: But I like i Project Manager: you know. User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}. Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Maybe. Industrial Designer: That's true. User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps. Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel. User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod. Industrial Designer: Yeah Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Is that {disfmarker} Marketing:'Cause th User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing? Marketing: It's like five, Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel. Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound} Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle. Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different, Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button, User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there. User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design. Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh uh Marketing: so few buttons for main things, Industrial Designer: t Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of? Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And then you could still have that available. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice. User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_ Industrial Designer: Right. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. User Interface: and people don't wanna do that. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left, Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we? Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay. Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours, Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know. User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's possible. Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex Industrial Designer: Exactly. Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium. Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options. User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel. Industrial Designer: Ooh. User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound} Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute. Industrial Designer: Mm. Options. Marketing: Lemons? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print. Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes. Project Manager: G Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick? Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea? Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool. Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is, Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker} User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good. Marketing: Costs. Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think. Marketing: But over time {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: If they're if they're really options. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: I did f User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe. Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons? User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume. Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume, Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker} Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers User Interface: I don't think it would really work. Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel. Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll. Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so. Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions? Project Manager: F Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus. User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: I don't know. Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case. Project Manager: Okay, let's do case. Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it? Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing. Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board, Project Manager: Ge o Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface:'Kay. Yeah. Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose. Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved? Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right? Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker} Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll, User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: right? Or both? User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button. Industrial Designer: Good point. User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple. Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Is that okay with you? Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} Project Manager: How you feeling? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel. Project Manager: It might be cool enough. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements, User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: how are we gonna do that? User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly? Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button, Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then? User Interface: Yep. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through. Industrial Designer: Alright. User Interface: Um in {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be? User Interface: Yeah. On off, Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker} User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu. Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, yeah Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation? User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right? User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned. Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button, Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down. User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach. Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound} Marketing: Wow. Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip? Industrial Designer: Simple chip. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so. Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound}

The first presentation mainly covered component design. Industrial Designer introduced what should be the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery made of and what they should look like. The second presentation was about properties and materials. User Interface advocated an LCD with backlighting in a small device. The third presentation was trend watching given by Marketing. So Marketing suggested space materials or the LCD screen because they stressed fashion, simplicity and technology innovation. Also, Marketing didn't suggest that spongy material was necessary.

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What did the group think of the possibility to use spongy material when presenting the trend watching? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six. Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching. Industrial Designer: That would be me. User Interface: Yep. Industrial Designer: Alright. Well. Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go. Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels, Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound} Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing? Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet. Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker} Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure, Marketing: but I've no idea. Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures. Marketing: Sounds good. Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Space-age remote. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element. Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly. Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, n Project Manager: no idea, okay. Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions? User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so. Industrial Designer: No? Okay. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look Project Manager: Thank you, perfect. Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thanks. Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book, Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook, Project Manager: then don't worry about that. Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker} Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know. Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are. User Interface: Jess. Industrial Designer: G oh, geez. User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So basically, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then? User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make. Industrial Designer:'Kay. Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and so User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it. Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying? Project Manager: Well Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes. Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box, User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way, Project Manager: mm-hmm. User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can. Industrial Designer: Oh, good point. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Um I'm not sure. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing. Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Is that going on? Okay. Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually. Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press, Project Manager: Eight. Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me. Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough. Industrial Designer: No signal. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: There we are. Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: S sweet. Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah. Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um. Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on? Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all? User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands. Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker} Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that, User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker} Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound} Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them, Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: li Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something. Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped. Project Manager: Could they be smelly? User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God. Project Manager: I don't know. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Or carrot shaped, Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Project Manager: mm. Industrial Designer: isn't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button, Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits. User Interface: or {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah. Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit. Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Kind of like a potato. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Might {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think. Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little. Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button. Project Manager: Harder to push. User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers? Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb. Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it. Project Manager: Don't you think? Industrial Designer: No Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized. Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around. Industrial Designer: Jus Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them, Marketing: But I like i Project Manager: you know. User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}. Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Maybe. Industrial Designer: That's true. User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps. Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel. User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod. Industrial Designer: Yeah Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Is that {disfmarker} Marketing:'Cause th User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing? Marketing: It's like five, Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel. Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound} Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle. Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different, Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button, User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there. User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design. Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh uh Marketing: so few buttons for main things, Industrial Designer: t Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of? Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And then you could still have that available. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice. User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_ Industrial Designer: Right. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. User Interface: and people don't wanna do that. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left, Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we? Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay. Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours, Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know. User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's possible. Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex Industrial Designer: Exactly. Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium. Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options. User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel. Industrial Designer: Ooh. User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound} Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute. Industrial Designer: Mm. Options. Marketing: Lemons? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print. Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes. Project Manager: G Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick? Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea? Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool. Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is, Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker} User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good. Marketing: Costs. Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think. Marketing: But over time {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: If they're if they're really options. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: I did f User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe. Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons? User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume. Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume, Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker} Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers User Interface: I don't think it would really work. Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel. Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll. Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so. Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions? Project Manager: F Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus. User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: I don't know. Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case. Project Manager: Okay, let's do case. Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it? Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing. Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board, Project Manager: Ge o Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface:'Kay. Yeah. Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose. Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved? Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right? Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker} Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll, User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: right? Or both? User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button. Industrial Designer: Good point. User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple. Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Is that okay with you? Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} Project Manager: How you feeling? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel. Project Manager: It might be cool enough. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements, User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: how are we gonna do that? User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly? Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button, Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then? User Interface: Yep. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through. Industrial Designer: Alright. User Interface: Um in {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be? User Interface: Yeah. On off, Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker} User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu. Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, yeah Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation? User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right? User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned. Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button, Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down. User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach. Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound} Marketing: Wow. Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip? Industrial Designer: Simple chip. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so. Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound}

Project Manager thought a spongy remote would be easier on the hands, while Industrial Designer thought a latex case was hard to protect the stuff inside. Due to the discussion about repetitive stress injuries mentioned before, they didn't want to go for the spongy remote. Marketing supplemented that grippable thing was more than like sinking into the hands, so Marketing preferred the material like the one people have when sitting on a bicycle.

tr-sq-753

tr-sq-753_0

Why did User Interface think the LCD screen was not useful in practice when discussing the scroll wheels? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six. Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching. Industrial Designer: That would be me. User Interface: Yep. Industrial Designer: Alright. Well. Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go. Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels, Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound} Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing? Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet. Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker} Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure, Marketing: but I've no idea. Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures. Marketing: Sounds good. Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Space-age remote. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element. Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly. Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, n Project Manager: no idea, okay. Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions? User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so. Industrial Designer: No? Okay. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look Project Manager: Thank you, perfect. Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thanks. Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book, Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook, Project Manager: then don't worry about that. Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker} Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know. Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are. User Interface: Jess. Industrial Designer: G oh, geez. User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So basically, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then? User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make. Industrial Designer:'Kay. Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and so User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it. Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying? Project Manager: Well Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes. Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box, User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way, Project Manager: mm-hmm. User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can. Industrial Designer: Oh, good point. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Um I'm not sure. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing. Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Is that going on? Okay. Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually. Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press, Project Manager: Eight. Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me. Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough. Industrial Designer: No signal. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: There we are. Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: S sweet. Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah. Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um. Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on? Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all? User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands. Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker} Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that, User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker} Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound} Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them, Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: li Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something. Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped. Project Manager: Could they be smelly? User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God. Project Manager: I don't know. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Or carrot shaped, Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Project Manager: mm. Industrial Designer: isn't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button, Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits. User Interface: or {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah. Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit. Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Kind of like a potato. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Might {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think. Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little. Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button. Project Manager: Harder to push. User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers? Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb. Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it. Project Manager: Don't you think? Industrial Designer: No Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized. Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around. Industrial Designer: Jus Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them, Marketing: But I like i Project Manager: you know. User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}. Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Maybe. Industrial Designer: That's true. User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps. Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel. User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod. Industrial Designer: Yeah Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Is that {disfmarker} Marketing:'Cause th User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing? Marketing: It's like five, Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel. Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound} Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle. Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different, Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button, User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there. User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design. Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh uh Marketing: so few buttons for main things, Industrial Designer: t Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of? Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And then you could still have that available. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice. User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_ Industrial Designer: Right. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. User Interface: and people don't wanna do that. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left, Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we? Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay. Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours, Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know. User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's possible. Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex Industrial Designer: Exactly. Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium. Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options. User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel. Industrial Designer: Ooh. User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound} Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute. Industrial Designer: Mm. Options. Marketing: Lemons? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print. Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes. Project Manager: G Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick? Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea? Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool. Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is, Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker} User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good. Marketing: Costs. Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think. Marketing: But over time {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: If they're if they're really options. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: I did f User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe. Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons? User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume. Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume, Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker} Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers User Interface: I don't think it would really work. Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel. Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll. Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so. Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions? Project Manager: F Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus. User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: I don't know. Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case. Project Manager: Okay, let's do case. Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it? Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing. Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board, Project Manager: Ge o Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface:'Kay. Yeah. Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose. Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved? Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right? Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker} Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll, User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: right? Or both? User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button. Industrial Designer: Good point. User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple. Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Is that okay with you? Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} Project Manager: How you feeling? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel. Project Manager: It might be cool enough. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements, User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: how are we gonna do that? User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly? Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button, Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then? User Interface: Yep. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through. Industrial Designer: Alright. User Interface: Um in {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be? User Interface: Yeah. On off, Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker} User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu. Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, yeah Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation? User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right? User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned. Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button, Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down. User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach. Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound} Marketing: Wow. Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip? Industrial Designer: Simple chip. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so. Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound}

When the group was discussing the four or five buttons around the scroll wheels, Marketing mentioned how to achieve going back to the menu with few buttons for main things if someone was changing the brightness. So User Interface thought that LCD screens might be a good theory, but not as useful in practice because people would not want to look down at the LCD screen and then back up at the television.

tr-sq-754

tr-sq-754_0

Summarize the group discussion about remote control concept decisions. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six. Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching. Industrial Designer: That would be me. User Interface: Yep. Industrial Designer: Alright. Well. Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go. Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels, Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound} Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing? Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet. Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker} Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure, Marketing: but I've no idea. Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures. Marketing: Sounds good. Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Space-age remote. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element. Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly. Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, n Project Manager: no idea, okay. Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions? User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so. Industrial Designer: No? Okay. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look Project Manager: Thank you, perfect. Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thanks. Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book, Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook, Project Manager: then don't worry about that. Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker} Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know. Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are. User Interface: Jess. Industrial Designer: G oh, geez. User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So basically, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then? User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make. Industrial Designer:'Kay. Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and so User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it. Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying? Project Manager: Well Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes. Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box, User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way, Project Manager: mm-hmm. User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can. Industrial Designer: Oh, good point. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Um I'm not sure. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing. Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Is that going on? Okay. Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually. Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press, Project Manager: Eight. Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me. Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough. Industrial Designer: No signal. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: There we are. Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: S sweet. Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah. Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um. Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on? Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all? User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands. Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker} Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that, User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker} Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound} Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them, Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: li Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something. Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped. Project Manager: Could they be smelly? User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God. Project Manager: I don't know. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Or carrot shaped, Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Project Manager: mm. Industrial Designer: isn't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button, Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits. User Interface: or {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah. Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit. Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Kind of like a potato. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Might {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think. Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little. Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button. Project Manager: Harder to push. User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers? Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb. Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it. Project Manager: Don't you think? Industrial Designer: No Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized. Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around. Industrial Designer: Jus Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them, Marketing: But I like i Project Manager: you know. User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}. Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Maybe. Industrial Designer: That's true. User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps. Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel. User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod. Industrial Designer: Yeah Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Is that {disfmarker} Marketing:'Cause th User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing? Marketing: It's like five, Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel. Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound} Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle. Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different, Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button, User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there. User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design. Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh uh Marketing: so few buttons for main things, Industrial Designer: t Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of? Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And then you could still have that available. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice. User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_ Industrial Designer: Right. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. User Interface: and people don't wanna do that. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left, Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we? Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay. Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours, Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know. User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's possible. Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex Industrial Designer: Exactly. Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium. Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options. User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel. Industrial Designer: Ooh. User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound} Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute. Industrial Designer: Mm. Options. Marketing: Lemons? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print. Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes. Project Manager: G Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick? Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea? Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool. Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is, Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker} User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good. Marketing: Costs. Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think. Marketing: But over time {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: If they're if they're really options. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: I did f User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe. Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons? User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume. Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume, Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker} Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers User Interface: I don't think it would really work. Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel. Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll. Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so. Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions? Project Manager: F Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus. User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: I don't know. Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case. Project Manager: Okay, let's do case. Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it? Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing. Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board, Project Manager: Ge o Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface:'Kay. Yeah. Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose. Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved? Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right? Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker} Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll, User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: right? Or both? User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button. Industrial Designer: Good point. User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple. Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Is that okay with you? Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} Project Manager: How you feeling? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel. Project Manager: It might be cool enough. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements, User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: how are we gonna do that? User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly? Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button, Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then? User Interface: Yep. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through. Industrial Designer: Alright. User Interface: Um in {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be? User Interface: Yeah. On off, Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker} User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu. Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, yeah Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation? User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right? User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned. Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button, Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down. User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach. Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound} Marketing: Wow. Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip? Industrial Designer: Simple chip. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so. Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound}

Firstly, the group discussed whether they could have changeable covers of different fruit and vegetable colours. Secondly, they had a discussion on the energy, the case and the chip. Then, group mates decided to have latex in fruity colours, a chip, a menu button to scroll as well as on-off buttons.

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tr-sq-755_0

What did the group think of the kinetic battery idea when discussing remote control concept decisions? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six. Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching. Industrial Designer: That would be me. User Interface: Yep. Industrial Designer: Alright. Well. Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go. Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels, Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound} Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing? Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet. Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker} Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure, Marketing: but I've no idea. Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures. Marketing: Sounds good. Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Space-age remote. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element. Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly. Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, n Project Manager: no idea, okay. Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions? User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so. Industrial Designer: No? Okay. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look Project Manager: Thank you, perfect. Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thanks. Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book, Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook, Project Manager: then don't worry about that. Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker} Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know. Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are. User Interface: Jess. Industrial Designer: G oh, geez. User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So basically, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then? User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make. Industrial Designer:'Kay. Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and so User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it. Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying? Project Manager: Well Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes. Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box, User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way, Project Manager: mm-hmm. User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can. Industrial Designer: Oh, good point. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Um I'm not sure. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing. Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Is that going on? Okay. Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually. Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press, Project Manager: Eight. Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me. Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough. Industrial Designer: No signal. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: There we are. Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: S sweet. Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah. Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um. Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on? Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all? User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands. Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker} Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that, User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker} Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound} Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them, Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: li Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something. Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped. Project Manager: Could they be smelly? User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God. Project Manager: I don't know. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Or carrot shaped, Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Project Manager: mm. Industrial Designer: isn't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button, Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits. User Interface: or {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah. Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit. Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Kind of like a potato. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Might {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think. Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little. Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button. Project Manager: Harder to push. User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers? Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb. Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it. Project Manager: Don't you think? Industrial Designer: No Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized. Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around. Industrial Designer: Jus Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them, Marketing: But I like i Project Manager: you know. User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}. Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Maybe. Industrial Designer: That's true. User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps. Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel. User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod. Industrial Designer: Yeah Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Is that {disfmarker} Marketing:'Cause th User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing? Marketing: It's like five, Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel. Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound} Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle. Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different, Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button, User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there. User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design. Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh uh Marketing: so few buttons for main things, Industrial Designer: t Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of? Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And then you could still have that available. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice. User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_ Industrial Designer: Right. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. User Interface: and people don't wanna do that. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left, Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we? Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay. Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours, Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know. User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's possible. Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex Industrial Designer: Exactly. Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium. Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options. User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel. Industrial Designer: Ooh. User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound} Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute. Industrial Designer: Mm. Options. Marketing: Lemons? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print. Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes. Project Manager: G Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick? Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea? Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool. Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is, Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker} User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good. Marketing: Costs. Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think. Marketing: But over time {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: If they're if they're really options. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: I did f User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe. Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons? User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume. Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume, Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker} Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers User Interface: I don't think it would really work. Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel. Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll. Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so. Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions? Project Manager: F Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus. User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: I don't know. Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case. Project Manager: Okay, let's do case. Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it? Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing. Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board, Project Manager: Ge o Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface:'Kay. Yeah. Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose. Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved? Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right? Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker} Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll, User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: right? Or both? User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button. Industrial Designer: Good point. User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple. Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Is that okay with you? Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} Project Manager: How you feeling? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel. Project Manager: It might be cool enough. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements, User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: how are we gonna do that? User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly? Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button, Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then? User Interface: Yep. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through. Industrial Designer: Alright. User Interface: Um in {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be? User Interface: Yeah. On off, Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker} User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu. Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, yeah Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation? User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right? User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned. Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button, Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down. User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach. Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound} Marketing: Wow. Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip? Industrial Designer: Simple chip. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so. Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound}

Group mates agreed that the kinetic battery was awesome as long as they considered the cost and the reliability because it was more expensive than a regular battery. Also, groupmates suggested if they could use a cheaper chip, then they could even out the cost of this good kinetic battery technology.

tr-sq-756

tr-sq-756_0

Why did User Interface think the scroll wheel was not necessary when discussing remote control concept decisions? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six. Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching. Industrial Designer: That would be me. User Interface: Yep. Industrial Designer: Alright. Well. Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go. Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels, Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound} Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing? Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet. Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker} Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure, Marketing: but I've no idea. Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures. Marketing: Sounds good. Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Space-age remote. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element. Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly. Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, n Project Manager: no idea, okay. Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions? User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so. Industrial Designer: No? Okay. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look Project Manager: Thank you, perfect. Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thanks. Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book, Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook, Project Manager: then don't worry about that. Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker} Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know. Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are. User Interface: Jess. Industrial Designer: G oh, geez. User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So basically, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then? User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make. Industrial Designer:'Kay. Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and so User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it. Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying? Project Manager: Well Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes. Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box, User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way, Project Manager: mm-hmm. User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can. Industrial Designer: Oh, good point. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Um I'm not sure. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing. Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Is that going on? Okay. Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually. Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press, Project Manager: Eight. Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me. Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough. Industrial Designer: No signal. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: There we are. Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: S sweet. Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah. Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um. Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on? Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all? User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands. Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker} Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that, User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker} Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound} Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them, Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: li Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something. Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped. Project Manager: Could they be smelly? User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God. Project Manager: I don't know. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Or carrot shaped, Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Project Manager: mm. Industrial Designer: isn't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button, Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits. User Interface: or {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah. Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit. Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Kind of like a potato. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Might {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think. Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little. Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button. Project Manager: Harder to push. User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers? Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb. Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it. Project Manager: Don't you think? Industrial Designer: No Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized. Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around. Industrial Designer: Jus Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them, Marketing: But I like i Project Manager: you know. User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}. Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Maybe. Industrial Designer: That's true. User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps. Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel. User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod. Industrial Designer: Yeah Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Is that {disfmarker} Marketing:'Cause th User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing? Marketing: It's like five, Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel. Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound} Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle. Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different, Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button, User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there. User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design. Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh uh Marketing: so few buttons for main things, Industrial Designer: t Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of? Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And then you could still have that available. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice. User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_ Industrial Designer: Right. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. User Interface: and people don't wanna do that. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left, Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we? Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay. Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours, Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know. User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's possible. Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex Industrial Designer: Exactly. Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium. Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options. User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel. Industrial Designer: Ooh. User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound} Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute. Industrial Designer: Mm. Options. Marketing: Lemons? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print. Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes. Project Manager: G Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick? Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea? Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool. Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is, Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker} User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good. Marketing: Costs. Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think. Marketing: But over time {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: If they're if they're really options. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: I did f User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe. Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons? User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume. Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume, Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker} Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers User Interface: I don't think it would really work. Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel. Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll. Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so. Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions? Project Manager: F Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus. User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: I don't know. Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case. Project Manager: Okay, let's do case. Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it? Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing. Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board, Project Manager: Ge o Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface:'Kay. Yeah. Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose. Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved? Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right? Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker} Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll, User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: right? Or both? User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button. Industrial Designer: Good point. User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple. Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Is that okay with you? Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} Project Manager: How you feeling? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel. Project Manager: It might be cool enough. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements, User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: how are we gonna do that? User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly? Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button, Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then? User Interface: Yep. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through. Industrial Designer: Alright. User Interface: Um in {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be? User Interface: Yeah. On off, Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker} User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu. Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, yeah Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation? User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right? User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned. Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button, Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down. User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach. Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound} Marketing: Wow. Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip? Industrial Designer: Simple chip. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so. Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound}

When the group was talking about the scroll wheel could be for changing the volume, User Interface thought it would not work for changing the channel because they really need buttons for changing a channel. So User Interface suggested the group could make a decision on it while they talked about the case.

tr-gq-757

tr-gq-757_0

Summarize the whole meeting. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I g yeah. Time is it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six. Project Manager: Okay. Lovely to see you all again. Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock. Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda, we're gonna do an opening, I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting, then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts, and finally we'll close. So Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: opening. Um these are our minutes from r the functional design. We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it, because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups, different um functions of it. Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion. {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost, large buttons for the essential functions, a possibility for extra functions, like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station. Okay, now three presentations. I'd like to do it in this order, first do the conceptual specification of components, properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching. Industrial Designer: That would be me. User Interface: Yep. Industrial Designer: Alright. Well. Project Manager: Mm.'kay. Function F_ eight it. There we go. Industrial Designer: Alright. Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it. Components design. This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of. {vocalsound} Um. So, we need to examine each element separately, but we're designing a full thing, so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole. The main elements of remote controls in general, and therefore ours as well, are the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery. These are all things that we had sort of addressed before, but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like. The case, uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do, um there's there's the shape of a case, we could do a flat sh a flat case, a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case. I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet, just keep that in mind, but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic, the m the main base will be plastic, but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in, wood, latex, titanium, rubber or other coloured types of plastic. That would be our case. Um buttons, for buttons we have um pushbuttons, which is what Real Reaction uses the most often, but we also have scror scroll wheels, Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons, or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen. {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one, a regular one or an advanced one, depending on what our other needs are. And then battery I think is where things get most exciting. We're talking about long-life batteries here. {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries, but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery, like are used in high-tech watches, where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up. Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery. Or a solar battery, although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery. Project Manager: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago, flashlights. Not quite sure what that is, but that's the description that I received, so that's what I'm passing on to you. {vocalsound} So those are our options. Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through, fashion and simplicity. So if we're going for fashion in our cases, I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case, probably with a variety of design elements. Maybe titanium, maybe some wood. We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials, but that's sort of what I have in mind. And we wanna go for simplicity. Probably pushbuttons, but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel, if anyone has anything Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: any ideas on that? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing, so that might be something we wanna look into. And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery. {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea, because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic, that you don't have to replace, and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work, I think that that m would be a very interesting thing. But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down. Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_. So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be,'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down. That's what I have for options. Um I'd appreciate anyone's input, but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing. {vocalsound} Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing? Industrial Designer: I'm not sure. I haven't received any specific Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet. Marketing:'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like, you know, like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker} Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. I'm not sure, Marketing: but I've no idea. Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures. Marketing: Sounds good. Project Manager: Yeah, I wonder {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case, it can't have any titanium in it. But the titanium, they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme, so that could be quite interesting. User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Space-age remote. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element. Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind. Yeah. {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do, guys. I hope I didn't go through that too quickly. Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements, have you {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, n Project Manager: no idea, okay. Industrial Designer: no idea, no idea. Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light, I know, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker} Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: that's really basic, I mean, that's all I have gotten so far. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Alright? Any other questions? User Interface: Uh-huh. Don't think so. Industrial Designer: No? Okay. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects, if anyone wants to look Project Manager: Thank you, perfect. Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well, if anyone needs any more information. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thanks. Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh, uh in your book, Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook, Project Manager: then don't worry about that. Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions, don't hesitate to email me or something. Alright? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker} Project Manager:'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, um. This one's so much tighter than the other one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know. Project Manager: Okay. Nope. There we go. Here you are. User Interface: Jess. Industrial Designer: G oh, geez. User Interface: Alright, so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device. Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface. We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable. Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose. Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control, so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people. We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um, but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device. Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it, we can then design the features around the concept, making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features. And of course we also have to make it look cool. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So basically, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: that's what we don't want. {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons, uh complicated features. We want something that looks nice and simple. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device. This is an an iPod from Apple. Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons. It's very minimalistic in its design. Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen. Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features. Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track, next track and play pause. They're the main the main features of the iPod, the things you will use a all the time. Um then if you want to do anything more advanced, you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want. So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have. Um {vocalsound} here's a another example. This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool. Um it's certainly got novelty value. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful, it's nice and bright. Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around. The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever, you can work out which button's which and basically, yeah it's ith it's fun. So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often. So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels. I mean most people, when they watch T_V_, they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of'bout four of them at the most. So, you have buttons for your favourite channel, changing the volume, which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_, and the button to switch it off, in case you get bored. Um other features, things like adjusting the brightness, tuning the T_V_, uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_. Um but these are these are all necessary functions. Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast, so we need to find a way of including these somehow. Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system, a bit like on the iPod. So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself, or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device. Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then? User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go, yes. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display, it's it's nice, because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: There are disadvantages, an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small,'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device. Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it,'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display. The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control. Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea. It's it can it does have it's problems as well, if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room, it's hard to read the little text that comes up. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make. Industrial Designer:'Kay. Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um and so User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable, but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it. Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait, but is that separate from what he was saying? Project Manager: Well Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote, I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No, I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly, rather than menu as what's on. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah, that that would be one of the features, yes. Project Manager: Okay.'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box, User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way, Project Manager: mm-hmm. User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control, at least I don't think you can. Industrial Designer: Oh, good point. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Um I'm not sure. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, now we're moving on to market. Marketing. Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Is that going on? Okay. Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh that should be alright, actually. Marketing: Is it on? Ri What F_ do you have to press, Project Manager: Eight. Marketing: five? I just keep pressing lots of'em. Well, I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be. {vocalsound} If anything, the {gap} that they gave me. Project Manager: Oops, it's not plugged in, quite in well enough. Industrial Designer: No signal. Marketing: Alright. Project Manager: There we are. Industrial Designer: Oop, there we go. Project Manager: Mm'kay. Marketing: Oh yeah. {vocalsound} Okay, so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching. {vocalsound} Basically, I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted, and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls, and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference, but that really, over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes, so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so, even though we're stressing, when we're talking, we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea, they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel. And as these are ranked, the top one is doubly important to the second one, which is doubly important to the third one, Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: so just to take that weight into account. {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations. That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen, things like that. And then ease of use was the third most important, whi so really, no matter what, we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel, according to this. I don't know how much we agree with that. {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy, {vocalsound} tight material. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: S sweet. Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences. Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Personally, I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale, excuse the pun, um in a year, so User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as, you know, trend watch, market research, I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Also, considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction, I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like, how these questions may have been worded, and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking. Personally, like I might reverse it, but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what, we have to stress fashion the most. {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: that pretty much sums it up. So yeah. Project Manager: Okay, do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this, let's see um. Marketing: Yeah, what can I possibly enlighten on? Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all? User Interface: {gap} Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote? It would be easier on the hands. Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um, mean {disfmarker} Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that, User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker} Project Manager: I dunno. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex, which is spongier and softer on your hands. It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said, I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, Marketing: Yeah, so something, m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable, I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy, maybe. {vocalsound} Marketing: yeah, grip, I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands, User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: you know, i and I think I'm envisioning more like, you know, the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time, Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing, I don't know what th that material's called. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable. {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours? We could colour-co-ordinate them, Project Manager: F for sure, or maybe like Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: li Project Manager: um couple main ones being like, I dunno, lemons or strawberries or something. Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped. Project Manager: Could they be smelly? User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable? Uh like uh I dunno, like uh carrots or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God. Project Manager: I don't know. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Or carrot shaped, Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Project Manager: mm. Industrial Designer: isn't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button, Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits. User Interface: or {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of, yeah. Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote? Instead of like a vertical up and down one. Like in terms of holding it. Like that's a f shape of a fruit. Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Kind of like a potato. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Might {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think. Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it? Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little. Project Manager:'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button. Project Manager: Harder to push. User Interface: Depends. When you when you use a remote, do you press the buttons with your thumb, usually? Or your fingers? Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand. Maybe {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone, so you you hold it in one hand, and you press the buttons with your thumb. Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's ts how I tend to do it. Project Manager: Don't you think? Industrial Designer: No Marketing: Yeah, Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized. Marketing:'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around. Industrial Designer: Jus Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them, Marketing: But I like i Project Manager: you know. User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}. Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Maybe. Industrial Designer: That's true. User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway, then it's it's not so much a problem, perhaps. Industrial Designer: Right. I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod, that's how I do it, hold it and press the four. Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel. User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod. Industrial Designer: Yeah Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Is that {disfmarker} Marketing:'Cause th User Interface: The button on an iPod, is it {disfmarker} what is it, is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing? Marketing: It's like five, Project Manager: It's a scroll, yeah, it's a wheel. Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound} Marketing:'cause there's one in the middle. Industrial Designer: yeah, it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different, Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it, I don't think. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah, you had one of the in-between ones, when they weren't doing that anymore. Ts and you press the centre button, User Interface: Right. Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there. User Interface: Oh, I see, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked, yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's quite a good design. Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh uh Marketing: so few buttons for main things, Industrial Designer: t Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like, I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_. I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing:'cause if you're changing the brightness, don't you wanna see it happening, kind of? Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And then you could still have that available. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory, but not as useful in practice. User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: yeah. Also z yeah,'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen, than back up at your T_V_ Industrial Designer: Right. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. User Interface: and people don't wanna do that. Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left, Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going, don't we? Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation. Um I've one more slide before we close, but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things, so I'll just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}'Kay. Project Manager: before we move on. {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile? In different fruit and vegetable colours, Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables, I'll let you know. User Interface: Like, to make it different fruits. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, it's possible. Project Manager: Yeah, and then like the the covers could be spongy latex Industrial Designer: Exactly. Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium. Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever. All these options. User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging, it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel. Industrial Designer: Ooh. User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it, and the remote control's inside. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm. Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Don't know. {vocalsound} Marketing: there we go. The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute. Industrial Designer: Mm. Options. Marketing: Lemons? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, um {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: components concept. Energy, chip on print. Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh, oh yes. Project Manager: G Industrial Designer: Right, I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me. So can you just explain what that is real quick? Industrial Designer: Alright, so um decisions, what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Um I dunno, what do people think about this kinetic battery idea? Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome. I think it's really cool. Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, I mean, it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, um I think it's good, as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is, Industrial Designer: Right, I haven't gotten any {disfmarker} User Interface: but as far as I know, the technology is good. Marketing: Costs. Industrial Designer: yeah, any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery, but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip, then it'll even out, I think. Marketing: But over time {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards. Um yeah, I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced. They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them, and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine, which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions. I wasn't really given any options, I was just given that this is how they're done. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Um yeah, I can't can't really tell you. I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works. But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: If they're if they're really options. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I'm sorry, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: I did f User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same, I think. Uh it's fairly fairly standard. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Um okay, then we'll move on to the case. Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple, a regular, or an advanced chip, maybe. Industrial Designer: Right. Well okay, here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got. Um simple, regular, advanced chip on print. The chip on print includes an infrared sensor, so we don't have to worry about that. Um, {vocalsound}'kay, the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons, they require a simple chip, but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip, and an L_C_D_ requires advanced. Do we want a scroll wheel, or do we just want pushbuttons? User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel. I mean it might be nice for changing the volume. Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume, Industrial Designer: Oh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker} Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel.'Cause you don't have control over numbers User Interface: I don't think it would really work. Marketing: Yeah, it's a {disfmarker} Project Manager: or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah, you really need buttons for changing a channel. Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices, than you can scroll down on the scroll. Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels, and then the volume would just be User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting, so. Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way, forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And otherwise, no matter how may buttons we have, we're gonna have like, you know, black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Hmm. Project Manager: So, have a scroll for volume? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions? Project Manager: F Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus. User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah, I think a scroll wheel would be nice, but it's not necessary. Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Right. So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip, depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later. Project Manager: Um. Industrial Designer: I don't know. Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface, we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well, let's think about that while we talk about the case. Project Manager: Okay, let's do case. Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex, if if spongy is the in thing. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it, because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh could it be hard, and then something around it? Industrial Designer: Uh yeah, everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing. Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen, just not related to this, but of latex cases before, is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside, and it's just covered with the latex. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex, just enough to be grippable, like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay. Industrial Designer: The inside is hard. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board, Project Manager: Ge o Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface:'Kay. Yeah. Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Latex. Um and probably in colours, maybe fruity, vegetable colours. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Fruity colours. {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose. Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case, yeah? Or a double-curved? Project Manager: Well, we don't really know what the difference is, right? Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker} Project Manager: Um okay, interface, the type and the supplements. So push or scroll, User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: right? Or both? User Interface: Yep. Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down, we should just go for pushbuttons,'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler, it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button. Industrial Designer: Good point. User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through, like you can use your buttons to scroll through things. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple. Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah. For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast, I dunno. Industrial Designer: Yeah. I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton, but it's gotta be some more expensive, so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Is that okay with you? Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} Project Manager: How you feeling? Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. And let's like see if we get anything else. I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel, it's more just to give it a different kind of look, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool, then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel. Project Manager: It might be cool enough. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons, and then supplements, User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: how are we gonna do that? User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements, exactly? Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button, Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then? User Interface: Yep. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through. Industrial Designer: Alright. User Interface: Um in {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be? User Interface: Yeah. On off, Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker} User Interface: uh volume, favourite channels, uh and menu. Industrial Designer: So like one through five, or {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, yeah Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation? User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah, a bit like radio presets. Um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero, right? User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned. Project Manager: Well, but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through. User Interface: Yeah, yeah, you can just {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: and you need some kind of, I dunno, sort of up down kind of button, Industrial Designer: Yeah, up down. User Interface: but the volume control could double for that, for example. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Okay, um finishing the meeting now. Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um you each have things to do, look and feel design, user interface design, product evaluation, and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay. You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach. Industrial Designer: Ooh. {vocalsound} User Interface: Cool. {vocalsound} Marketing: Wow. Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip? Let's go with a simple chip? Industrial Designer: Simple chip. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yep. Project Manager: We are done. Thank you everyone. Oh I di these are already in our shared folder, so. Industrial Designer: Okay, cool. Clay. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay. I wasn't expecting that. {vocalsound}

This meeting was about the conceptual design of the remote control. Firstly, groupmates presented on the conceptual specification on components, properties and materials as well as a conceptual specification on user interface design. Also, they suggested conceptual designs including the buttons, the circuit board, the chip to print as well as the LCD screen with backlighting in the device. Then, the group had a discussion on the final remote control concepts. So, they decided to have changeable covers in fruity colours, rechargeable batteries and scroll wheels. And they would leave the spongy case and the standard of the chip to be discussed in the next meeting.

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Summarize the presentations on components, trend watching, and interface contents. Project Manager: Hello again. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound} Marketing: Hey, Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you. Project Manager: Mm yeah. User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker} Marketing: What was it, problem? User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound} Marketing: The laptop? User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung. User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: You're our Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: for Real Reaction. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: During lunch, yeah. Marketing: Master. User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts. Marketing: Master of {disfmarker} Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin? Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha. User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay. Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs Project Manager: One one little question. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Um about the the material. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control? Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah. Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured. Project Manager: Oh. Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit. Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both? User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably. User Interface: W {gap} nah. Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something. User Interface: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface. Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic? Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much. Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker} Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look? Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later. Marketing: But, are you going to draw it? Industrial Designer: What? User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_? Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you. Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Design. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with. Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay. Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: A little artistic. Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: It's soft. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons. Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar. Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker} Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think. Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, a combination. User Interface: A combination, yeah. Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up. Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Acu uh, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know. User Interface: Okay. Yeah. Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah. User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think? Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too. Industrial Designer: You agree? Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both? Marketing: Combine them. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound} User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved. User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas? Marketing: Rubber. Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber? User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}. Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker} User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah. Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing, Marketing: Rather hard. Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have. Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber. User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah? Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No. Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape. User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics, Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker} User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen. User Interface: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it. Marketing: That {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem. User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it. Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber. Marketing: Yeah, me too. Project Manager: Me too. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too? User Interface: That's good. Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit. User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. User Interface: I th I think that goes too far. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place, Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker} User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Thank you. Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome. Marketing: Can I uh do my thing? Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim. Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Spongeball. Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like a s soft material. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh. Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah. Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of. Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could. Marketing: No n j just j just a w Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float. Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look. Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor. User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours. Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one. Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Ah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone. User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative. Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like something. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker} User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay, second. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think. Industrial Designer: Well, yeah. Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same. User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Marketing: When you're at college. Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound} Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it. Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound} User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five. User Interface: Yes. Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker} User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy. User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure. Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah. User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options. Marketing: Mm no. User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it. User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control. Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children. User Interface: Yeah. Mm. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Something like that. User Interface: Um, w well, yeah. Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker} User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings. Marketing: Yeah, ok Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents. User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker} Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in. User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye Marketing: Like two one three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: And it's in. User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it, Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker} Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_. Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something. Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea? Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with. Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones. Marketing: I th Yeah. User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view. User Interface: {gap} {gap} Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out. User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all, Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible. User Interface: That isn't possible. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel. Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap} Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise. Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option. Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Marketing: go to a channel. Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it. Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much. User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker} User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And games? Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah. User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That would {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote, Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think. Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think? Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice. Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are User Interface: Optional in Project Manager: optional? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker} User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option. Marketing: To put {disfmarker} User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always. Project Manager: Yeah? User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance. User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending. Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just Project Manager: Yeah, you yo Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker} Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not. Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true. User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control. Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself. User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah. User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock. Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_ User Interface: Yeah? Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press. User Interface: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. User Interface: You have to f Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Or j Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Consensus. Project Manager: Uh, little more. Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left. User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome. User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening. Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view. Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: User profile. Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons. Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker} User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple. Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker} User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept. Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users. Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not. Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that. Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do Marketing: Okay. Go on. Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure. Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish. Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh Marketing: Marketing. Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management? Marketing: Management. Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Som some bench-marker. Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: Mm-hmm? Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation. User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah? Marketing: Bling. Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker} Project Manager: The {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it. Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom. Marketing: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there. Marketing: That spins around like all the time. Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something. Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer. Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon. Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things. User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class? Project Manager: The master class? Marketing: Ronald Betenberg? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation. Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now? User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} P_. Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen. User Interface: Ah, no new email. Industrial Designer: Definitely. Marketing: Me too. Project Manager: I will thank you all. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound} User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much. Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thank you too, lord. Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish. User Interface: {vocalsound} See you. Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers. Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour. Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions. Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together. User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's not my problem. User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker} Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound} User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager. Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email? User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm.

Firstly, Industrial Designer presented components based on the target age group's preference for stylish and material, including energy, chip, and LCD. Next, Marketing presented market trends and suggested the group should focus on the main audience and use fresh colours, rubber materials, speech function, and the log-in functionality with the slogan. Then, User Interface presented on interface contents and suggested a big touch screen, a program menu with volume plus and minus.

tr-sq-759

tr-sq-759_0

What's the advantage of technology innovation when Marketing presenting the trend-watching? Project Manager: Hello again. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound} Marketing: Hey, Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you. Project Manager: Mm yeah. User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker} Marketing: What was it, problem? User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound} Marketing: The laptop? User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung. User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: You're our Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: for Real Reaction. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: During lunch, yeah. Marketing: Master. User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts. Marketing: Master of {disfmarker} Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin? Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha. User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay. Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs Project Manager: One one little question. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Um about the the material. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control? Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah. Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured. Project Manager: Oh. Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit. Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both? User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably. User Interface: W {gap} nah. Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something. User Interface: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface. Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic? Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much. Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker} Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look? Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later. Marketing: But, are you going to draw it? Industrial Designer: What? User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_? Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you. Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Design. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with. Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay. Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: A little artistic. Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: It's soft. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons. Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar. Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker} Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think. Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, a combination. User Interface: A combination, yeah. Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up. Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Acu uh, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know. User Interface: Okay. Yeah. Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah. User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think? Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too. Industrial Designer: You agree? Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both? Marketing: Combine them. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound} User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved. User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas? Marketing: Rubber. Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber? User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}. Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker} User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah. Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing, Marketing: Rather hard. Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have. Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber. User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah? Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No. Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape. User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics, Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker} User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen. User Interface: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it. Marketing: That {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem. User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it. Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber. Marketing: Yeah, me too. Project Manager: Me too. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too? User Interface: That's good. Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit. User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. User Interface: I th I think that goes too far. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place, Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker} User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Thank you. Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome. Marketing: Can I uh do my thing? Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim. Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Spongeball. Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like a s soft material. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh. Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah. Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of. Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could. Marketing: No n j just j just a w Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float. Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look. Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor. User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours. Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one. Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Ah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone. User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative. Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like something. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker} User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay, second. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think. Industrial Designer: Well, yeah. Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same. User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Marketing: When you're at college. Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound} Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it. Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound} User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five. User Interface: Yes. Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker} User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy. User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure. Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah. User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options. Marketing: Mm no. User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it. User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control. Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children. User Interface: Yeah. Mm. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Something like that. User Interface: Um, w well, yeah. Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker} User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings. Marketing: Yeah, ok Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents. User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker} Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in. User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye Marketing: Like two one three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: And it's in. User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it, Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker} Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_. Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something. Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea? Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with. Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones. Marketing: I th Yeah. User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view. User Interface: {gap} {gap} Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out. User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all, Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible. User Interface: That isn't possible. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel. Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap} Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise. Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option. Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Marketing: go to a channel. Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it. Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much. User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker} User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And games? Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah. User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That would {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote, Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think. Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think? Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice. Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are User Interface: Optional in Project Manager: optional? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker} User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option. Marketing: To put {disfmarker} User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always. Project Manager: Yeah? User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance. User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending. Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just Project Manager: Yeah, you yo Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker} Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not. Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true. User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control. Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself. User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah. User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock. Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_ User Interface: Yeah? Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press. User Interface: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. User Interface: You have to f Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Or j Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Consensus. Project Manager: Uh, little more. Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left. User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome. User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening. Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view. Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: User profile. Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons. Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker} User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple. Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker} User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept. Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users. Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not. Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that. Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do Marketing: Okay. Go on. Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure. Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish. Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh Marketing: Marketing. Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management? Marketing: Management. Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Som some bench-marker. Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: Mm-hmm? Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation. User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah? Marketing: Bling. Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker} Project Manager: The {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it. Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom. Marketing: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there. Marketing: That spins around like all the time. Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something. Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer. Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon. Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things. User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class? Project Manager: The master class? Marketing: Ronald Betenberg? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation. Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now? User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} P_. Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen. User Interface: Ah, no new email. Industrial Designer: Definitely. Marketing: Me too. Project Manager: I will thank you all. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound} User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much. Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thank you too, lord. Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish. User Interface: {vocalsound} See you. Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers. Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour. Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions. Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together. User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's not my problem. User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker} Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound} User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager. Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email? User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm.

Marketing suggested the second personal preference from the market trend was to consider technology innovation, including the speech function recognition and the link with mobile phones. The reasons were that the market was screaming for new technologies and users could use remote to do something else, like gaming, when parents were watching some boring program.

tr-sq-760

tr-sq-760_0

What's the conclusion of the discussion about battery versus kinetic when presenting on components? Project Manager: Hello again. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound} Marketing: Hey, Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you. Project Manager: Mm yeah. User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker} Marketing: What was it, problem? User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound} Marketing: The laptop? User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung. User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: You're our Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: for Real Reaction. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: During lunch, yeah. Marketing: Master. User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts. Marketing: Master of {disfmarker} Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin? Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha. User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay. Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs Project Manager: One one little question. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Um about the the material. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control? Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah. Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured. Project Manager: Oh. Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit. Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both? User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably. User Interface: W {gap} nah. Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something. User Interface: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface. Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic? Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much. Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker} Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look? Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later. Marketing: But, are you going to draw it? Industrial Designer: What? User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_? Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you. Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Design. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with. Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay. Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: A little artistic. Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: It's soft. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons. Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar. Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker} Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think. Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, a combination. User Interface: A combination, yeah. Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up. Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Acu uh, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know. User Interface: Okay. Yeah. Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah. User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think? Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too. Industrial Designer: You agree? Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both? Marketing: Combine them. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound} User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved. User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas? Marketing: Rubber. Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber? User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}. Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker} User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah. Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing, Marketing: Rather hard. Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have. Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber. User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah? Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No. Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape. User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics, Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker} User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen. User Interface: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it. Marketing: That {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem. User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it. Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber. Marketing: Yeah, me too. Project Manager: Me too. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too? User Interface: That's good. Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit. User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. User Interface: I th I think that goes too far. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place, Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker} User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Thank you. Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome. Marketing: Can I uh do my thing? Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim. Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Spongeball. Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like a s soft material. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh. Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah. Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of. Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could. Marketing: No n j just j just a w Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float. Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look. Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor. User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours. Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one. Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Ah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone. User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative. Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like something. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker} User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay, second. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think. Industrial Designer: Well, yeah. Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same. User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Marketing: When you're at college. Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound} Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it. Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound} User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five. User Interface: Yes. Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker} User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy. User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure. Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah. User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options. Marketing: Mm no. User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it. User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control. Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children. User Interface: Yeah. Mm. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Something like that. User Interface: Um, w well, yeah. Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker} User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings. Marketing: Yeah, ok Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents. User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker} Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in. User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye Marketing: Like two one three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: And it's in. User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it, Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker} Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_. Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something. Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea? Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with. Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones. Marketing: I th Yeah. User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view. User Interface: {gap} {gap} Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out. User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all, Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible. User Interface: That isn't possible. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel. Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap} Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise. Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option. Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Marketing: go to a channel. Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it. Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much. User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker} User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And games? Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah. User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That would {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote, Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think. Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think? Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice. Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are User Interface: Optional in Project Manager: optional? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker} User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option. Marketing: To put {disfmarker} User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always. Project Manager: Yeah? User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance. User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending. Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just Project Manager: Yeah, you yo Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker} Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not. Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true. User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control. Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself. User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah. User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock. Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_ User Interface: Yeah? Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press. User Interface: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. User Interface: You have to f Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Or j Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Consensus. Project Manager: Uh, little more. Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left. User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome. User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening. Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view. Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: User profile. Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons. Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker} User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple. Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker} User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept. Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users. Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not. Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that. Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do Marketing: Okay. Go on. Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure. Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish. Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh Marketing: Marketing. Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management? Marketing: Management. Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Som some bench-marker. Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: Mm-hmm? Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation. User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah? Marketing: Bling. Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker} Project Manager: The {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it. Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom. Marketing: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there. Marketing: That spins around like all the time. Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something. Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer. Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon. Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things. User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class? Project Manager: The master class? Marketing: Ronald Betenberg? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation. Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now? User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} P_. Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen. User Interface: Ah, no new email. Industrial Designer: Definitely. Marketing: Me too. Project Manager: I will thank you all. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound} User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much. Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thank you too, lord. Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish. User Interface: {vocalsound} See you. Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers. Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour. Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions. Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together. User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's not my problem. User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker} Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound} User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager. Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email? User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm.

Industrial Designer asked about whether group mates choose battery or kinetic. User Interface suggested that they could use the kinetic as a back-up. Marketing supplemented that it could be a combination. So, Industrial Designer concluded that they could use the battery and charge it up with kinetic. Group mates agreed on it.

tr-sq-761

tr-sq-761_0

Summarize the decision discussion about parental control, the games, and voice recognition. Project Manager: Hello again. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound} Marketing: Hey, Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you. Project Manager: Mm yeah. User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker} Marketing: What was it, problem? User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound} Marketing: The laptop? User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung. User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: You're our Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: for Real Reaction. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: During lunch, yeah. Marketing: Master. User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts. Marketing: Master of {disfmarker} Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin? Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha. User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay. Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs Project Manager: One one little question. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Um about the the material. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control? Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah. Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured. Project Manager: Oh. Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit. Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both? User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably. User Interface: W {gap} nah. Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something. User Interface: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface. Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic? Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much. Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker} Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look? Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later. Marketing: But, are you going to draw it? Industrial Designer: What? User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_? Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you. Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Design. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with. Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay. Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: A little artistic. Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: It's soft. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons. Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar. Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker} Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think. Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, a combination. User Interface: A combination, yeah. Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up. Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Acu uh, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know. User Interface: Okay. Yeah. Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah. User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think? Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too. Industrial Designer: You agree? Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both? Marketing: Combine them. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound} User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved. User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas? Marketing: Rubber. Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber? User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}. Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker} User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah. Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing, Marketing: Rather hard. Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have. Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber. User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah? Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No. Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape. User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics, Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker} User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen. User Interface: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it. Marketing: That {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem. User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it. Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber. Marketing: Yeah, me too. Project Manager: Me too. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too? User Interface: That's good. Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit. User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. User Interface: I th I think that goes too far. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place, Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker} User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Thank you. Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome. Marketing: Can I uh do my thing? Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim. Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Spongeball. Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like a s soft material. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh. Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah. Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of. Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could. Marketing: No n j just j just a w Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float. Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look. Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor. User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours. Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one. Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Ah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone. User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative. Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like something. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker} User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay, second. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think. Industrial Designer: Well, yeah. Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same. User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Marketing: When you're at college. Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound} Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it. Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound} User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five. User Interface: Yes. Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker} User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy. User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure. Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah. User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options. Marketing: Mm no. User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it. User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control. Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children. User Interface: Yeah. Mm. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Something like that. User Interface: Um, w well, yeah. Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker} User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings. Marketing: Yeah, ok Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents. User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker} Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in. User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye Marketing: Like two one three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: And it's in. User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it, Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker} Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_. Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something. Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea? Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with. Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones. Marketing: I th Yeah. User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view. User Interface: {gap} {gap} Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out. User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all, Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible. User Interface: That isn't possible. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel. Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap} Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise. Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option. Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Marketing: go to a channel. Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it. Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much. User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker} User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And games? Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah. User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That would {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote, Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think. Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think? Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice. Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are User Interface: Optional in Project Manager: optional? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker} User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option. Marketing: To put {disfmarker} User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always. Project Manager: Yeah? User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance. User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending. Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just Project Manager: Yeah, you yo Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker} Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not. Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true. User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control. Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself. User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah. User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock. Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_ User Interface: Yeah? Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press. User Interface: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. User Interface: You have to f Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Or j Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Consensus. Project Manager: Uh, little more. Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left. User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome. User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening. Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view. Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: User profile. Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons. Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker} User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple. Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker} User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept. Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users. Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not. Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that. Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do Marketing: Okay. Go on. Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure. Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish. Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh Marketing: Marketing. Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management? Marketing: Management. Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Som some bench-marker. Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: Mm-hmm? Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation. User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah? Marketing: Bling. Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker} Project Manager: The {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it. Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom. Marketing: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there. Marketing: That spins around like all the time. Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something. Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer. Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon. Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things. User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class? Project Manager: The master class? Marketing: Ronald Betenberg? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation. Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now? User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} P_. Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen. User Interface: Ah, no new email. Industrial Designer: Definitely. Marketing: Me too. Project Manager: I will thank you all. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound} User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much. Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thank you too, lord. Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish. User Interface: {vocalsound} See you. Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers. Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour. Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions. Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together. User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's not my problem. User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker} Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound} User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager. Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email? User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm.

Group mates agreed that they could incorporate the parental control as well as the gaming features into the remote control. However, they would discard the idea of voice recognition because it would be too much for the remote feature.

tr-sq-762

tr-sq-762_0

Why did Project Manager disagree with Industrial Designer when discussing parental control? Project Manager: Hello again. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound} Marketing: Hey, Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you. Project Manager: Mm yeah. User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker} Marketing: What was it, problem? User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound} Marketing: The laptop? User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung. User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: You're our Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: for Real Reaction. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: During lunch, yeah. Marketing: Master. User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts. Marketing: Master of {disfmarker} Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin? Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha. User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay. Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs Project Manager: One one little question. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Um about the the material. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control? Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah. Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured. Project Manager: Oh. Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit. Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both? User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably. User Interface: W {gap} nah. Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something. User Interface: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface. Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic? Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much. Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker} Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look? Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later. Marketing: But, are you going to draw it? Industrial Designer: What? User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_? Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you. Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Design. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with. Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay. Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: A little artistic. Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: It's soft. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons. Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar. Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker} Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think. Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, a combination. User Interface: A combination, yeah. Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up. Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Acu uh, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know. User Interface: Okay. Yeah. Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah. User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think? Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too. Industrial Designer: You agree? Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both? Marketing: Combine them. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound} User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved. User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas? Marketing: Rubber. Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber? User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}. Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker} User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah. Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing, Marketing: Rather hard. Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have. Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber. User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah? Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No. Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape. User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics, Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker} User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen. User Interface: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it. Marketing: That {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem. User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it. Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber. Marketing: Yeah, me too. Project Manager: Me too. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too? User Interface: That's good. Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit. User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. User Interface: I th I think that goes too far. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place, Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker} User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Thank you. Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome. Marketing: Can I uh do my thing? Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim. Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Spongeball. Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like a s soft material. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh. Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah. Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of. Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could. Marketing: No n j just j just a w Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float. Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look. Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor. User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours. Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one. Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Ah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone. User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative. Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like something. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker} User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay, second. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think. Industrial Designer: Well, yeah. Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same. User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Marketing: When you're at college. Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound} Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it. Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound} User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five. User Interface: Yes. Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker} User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy. User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure. Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah. User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options. Marketing: Mm no. User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it. User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control. Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children. User Interface: Yeah. Mm. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Something like that. User Interface: Um, w well, yeah. Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker} User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings. Marketing: Yeah, ok Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents. User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker} Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in. User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye Marketing: Like two one three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: And it's in. User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it, Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker} Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_. Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something. Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea? Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with. Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones. Marketing: I th Yeah. User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view. User Interface: {gap} {gap} Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out. User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all, Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible. User Interface: That isn't possible. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel. Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap} Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise. Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option. Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Marketing: go to a channel. Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it. Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much. User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker} User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And games? Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah. User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That would {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote, Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think. Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think? Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice. Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are User Interface: Optional in Project Manager: optional? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker} User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option. Marketing: To put {disfmarker} User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always. Project Manager: Yeah? User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance. User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending. Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just Project Manager: Yeah, you yo Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker} Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not. Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true. User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control. Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself. User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah. User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock. Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_ User Interface: Yeah? Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press. User Interface: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. User Interface: You have to f Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Or j Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Consensus. Project Manager: Uh, little more. Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left. User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome. User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening. Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view. Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: User profile. Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons. Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker} User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple. Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker} User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept. Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users. Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not. Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that. Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do Marketing: Okay. Go on. Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure. Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish. Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh Marketing: Marketing. Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management? Marketing: Management. Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Som some bench-marker. Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: Mm-hmm? Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation. User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah? Marketing: Bling. Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker} Project Manager: The {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it. Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom. Marketing: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there. Marketing: That spins around like all the time. Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something. Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer. Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon. Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things. User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class? Project Manager: The master class? Marketing: Ronald Betenberg? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation. Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now? User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} P_. Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen. User Interface: Ah, no new email. Industrial Designer: Definitely. Marketing: Me too. Project Manager: I will thank you all. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound} User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much. Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thank you too, lord. Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish. User Interface: {vocalsound} See you. Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers. Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour. Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions. Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together. User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's not my problem. User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker} Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound} User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager. Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email? User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm.

When the group suggested having the implementation of parents'log-on screen in the remote, Industrial Designer thought it would be not worth investing much time and effort to program. However, Project manager disagreed with this because there would be a huge market for parental control when they heard from magazines that many parents thought their children were influenced by televisions. Also, Project Manager mentioned that their target group was below forty, and lots of families had children at a young age.

tr-sq-763

tr-sq-763_0

What did group mates discuss the expert view when discussing the system properties? Project Manager: Hello again. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound} Marketing: Hey, Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you. Project Manager: Mm yeah. User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker} Marketing: What was it, problem? User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound} Marketing: The laptop? User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung. User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: You're our Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: for Real Reaction. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: During lunch, yeah. Marketing: Master. User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts. Marketing: Master of {disfmarker} Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin? Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha. User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay. Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs Project Manager: One one little question. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Um about the the material. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control? Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah. Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured. Project Manager: Oh. Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit. Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both? User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably. User Interface: W {gap} nah. Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something. User Interface: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface. Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic? Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much. Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker} Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look? Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later. Marketing: But, are you going to draw it? Industrial Designer: What? User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_? Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you. Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Design. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with. Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay. Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: A little artistic. Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: It's soft. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons. Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar. Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker} Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think. Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, a combination. User Interface: A combination, yeah. Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up. Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Acu uh, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know. User Interface: Okay. Yeah. Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah. User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think? Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too. Industrial Designer: You agree? Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both? Marketing: Combine them. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound} User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved. User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas? Marketing: Rubber. Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber? User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}. Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker} User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah. Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing, Marketing: Rather hard. Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have. Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber. User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah? Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No. Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape. User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics, Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker} User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen. User Interface: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it. Marketing: That {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem. User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it. Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber. Marketing: Yeah, me too. Project Manager: Me too. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too? User Interface: That's good. Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit. User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. User Interface: I th I think that goes too far. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place, Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker} User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Thank you. Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome. Marketing: Can I uh do my thing? Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim. Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Spongeball. Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like a s soft material. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh. Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah. Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of. Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could. Marketing: No n j just j just a w Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float. Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look. Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor. User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours. Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one. Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Ah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone. User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative. Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like something. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker} User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay, second. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think. Industrial Designer: Well, yeah. Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same. User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Marketing: When you're at college. Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound} Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it. Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound} User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five. User Interface: Yes. Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker} User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy. User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure. Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah. User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options. Marketing: Mm no. User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it. User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control. Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children. User Interface: Yeah. Mm. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Something like that. User Interface: Um, w well, yeah. Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker} User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings. Marketing: Yeah, ok Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents. User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker} Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in. User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye Marketing: Like two one three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: And it's in. User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it, Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker} Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_. Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something. Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea? Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with. Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones. Marketing: I th Yeah. User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view. User Interface: {gap} {gap} Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out. User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all, Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible. User Interface: That isn't possible. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel. Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap} Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise. Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option. Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Marketing: go to a channel. Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it. Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much. User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker} User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And games? Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah. User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That would {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote, Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think. Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think? Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice. Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are User Interface: Optional in Project Manager: optional? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker} User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option. Marketing: To put {disfmarker} User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always. Project Manager: Yeah? User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance. User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending. Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just Project Manager: Yeah, you yo Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker} Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not. Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true. User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control. Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself. User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah. User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock. Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_ User Interface: Yeah? Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press. User Interface: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. User Interface: You have to f Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Or j Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Consensus. Project Manager: Uh, little more. Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left. User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome. User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening. Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view. Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: User profile. Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons. Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker} User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple. Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker} User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept. Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users. Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not. Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that. Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do Marketing: Okay. Go on. Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure. Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish. Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh Marketing: Marketing. Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management? Marketing: Management. Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Som some bench-marker. Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: Mm-hmm? Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation. User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah? Marketing: Bling. Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker} Project Manager: The {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it. Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom. Marketing: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there. Marketing: That spins around like all the time. Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something. Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer. Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon. Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things. User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class? Project Manager: The master class? Marketing: Ronald Betenberg? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation. Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now? User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} P_. Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen. User Interface: Ah, no new email. Industrial Designer: Definitely. Marketing: Me too. Project Manager: I will thank you all. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound} User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much. Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thank you too, lord. Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish. User Interface: {vocalsound} See you. Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers. Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour. Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions. Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together. User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's not my problem. User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker} Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound} User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager. Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email? User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm.

Marketing suggested building an expert view and a simple view for handy consideration. User Interface suggested that in the menu structure, they could push system properties so that the entire list would pop up for programming. Industrial Designer supplemented that they could build in a back-forward button if someone wanted to watch fewer channels.

tr-gq-764

tr-gq-764_0

Summarize the whole meeting. Project Manager: Hello again. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: Hi. {vocalsound} Marketing: Hey, Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Project Manager, I have something to tell you. Project Manager: Mm yeah. User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: No, a little problem, uh {vocalsound} big problem. I just thought {disfmarker} Marketing: What was it, problem? User Interface: Um, it didn't work anymore. {vocalsound} Marketing: The laptop? User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung. User Interface: It it hung. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ha-ha. Oh. Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Yes. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: You're our Project Manager. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: for Real Reaction. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, hello again. Uh it's uh the same as the last time. Uh uh, also this time there will be uh three presentations. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts. Um uh, and at the end, uh I uh, when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited. {vocalsound} {gap} information. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: During lunch, yeah. Marketing: Master. User Interface: He's the master, yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on. Um uh, our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts. Marketing: Master of {disfmarker} Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts. Uh, the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well, we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable. Uh how how about the energy? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange? Uh, the user interface concept. Uh, with the type and uh the the supplements. So uh where to put what button. {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans, can you begin? Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: At the end, uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, let me see. I think it's this one. Ha. User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: Right. Uh, well, I'll be talking about the components. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above. And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh, well, what what d do we want, and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group. Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Ye Ah, it's {vocalsound} it's okay. Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They, well, they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials, like wood and and such more. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes. Um, uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles, where whereas the young and dynamic, they like a more uh soft materials. Think of the Teletubbies, for instance. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh uh, soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh, shapes are curved and round. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture. And uh they like sports and gaming, and that gives them uh the vitality. Uh, so w well uh, firs Project Manager: One one little question. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Um about the the material. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control? Industrial Designer: No, I'll I'll get to that. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You you'll see. Yeah. Project Manager: Thank you. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, well f first off, let's start start with the energy. W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic. Uh kinetic, that's when you move something, then uh it gets energy. I figured, well that's ki kinda high-tech, when when you have a remote control that well, when you pick it up, it has power. That would be actually very nice, uh I figured. Project Manager: Oh. Industrial Designer: Well, we could also use a battery, that's a bit {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low, you have to shake it or something? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah yeah, you c just you have to shake it around a little bit. Marketing: Uh, and uh uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery. Or you can go for both? User Interface: Oh, have you considered the option of using a solar panel? Industrial Designer: Yeah, I actually did. But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light. Well, sunlight preferably. User Interface: W {gap} nah. Industrial Designer: Uh, and you you could you could use normal light, but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something. User Interface: Mm. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels, you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels, but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control, leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface. Marketing: Mm yeah. It's too less space. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well, uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_, and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light. So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well you just take up all the space, and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic? Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well, the costs aren't that much higher, and um, ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery. Project Manager: Okay. Yeah, but you don't move a a remote control too much. Industrial Designer: I mean, if {disfmarker} No, but uh d Well, you pick it up and you press buttons and y well, you {disfmarker} Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well uh actually it is. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't, you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said, you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves. And for rest, you'd just add juice on the battery. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work, I usually shake it too. So {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you, Tim. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it. {vocalsound} It's exactly the same. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: f furthermore, you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases. You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring. So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved. Um, single curve, it's just a {disfmarker} well, uh, you know, it's just uh a nice curve. Or but but you could go in a in an double curves. And that's {gap} like several different dimensions. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look? Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look, I f I figured. But, that uh we'll discuss later. Marketing: But, are you going to draw it? Industrial Designer: What? User Interface: Th th yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_? Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, I c I can't imagine. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, yeah, I ca I ca I could I could show you. I could show you. Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Design. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design. But you could actually go like uh something like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah, this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth, you could you could uh just play around a bit with. Marketing: Oh, okay. Okay. Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: A little artistic. Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well, furthermore, uh well, uh plastic versus rubber? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better, plastic um or rubber. I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: It's soft. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh, ain't it? User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it, {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap. Uh that's maybe just me, but {disfmarker} Uh, we could uh uh, oh, talk about it later. Uh furthermore, buttons. Uh traditional uh or a touch screen. Well, we discussed it in a previous meeting, so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_. And uh chip set, well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons, we could go uh with a simple chip set. But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen, we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set. And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it. So that's something we th have to keep in mind. If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise, we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons. Marketing: Well, I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them. So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung, can give us uh a big discount on the chips, so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Marketing: U usually, chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar. Industrial Designer: Yeah, probably, but {disfmarker} But uh yeah, that's that's {disfmarker} Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue, I think. Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue. I'll I'll I'll just add, uh uh I put a big summary here, so we could discuss it a bit. Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, I think you should use kinetic as a back-up. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, a combination. User Interface: A combination, yeah. Industrial Designer: A combination. Uh, {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic. When you pick it up, it charges up. Marketing: Yeah. Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Acu uh, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah, I know. User Interface: Okay. Yeah. Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko. Marketing: {vocalsound} Well, {gap}. Yeah. User Interface: Psycho-kinetic. {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, I con Exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think? Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too. Industrial Designer: You agree? Project Manager: Yeah. Combine them. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Both? Marketing: Combine them. Industrial Designer: Okay. Uh, well that would bring the m m some more costs, but I mean the {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares, right. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem. {vocalsound} User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course. Fifty cent. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved. User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay. No, we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh, plastic versus rubber. Any ideas? Marketing: Rubber. Project Manager: Rubber. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, rubber? User Interface: Um, isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap}. Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh, I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker} User Interface: Rubber casing, yeah. Industrial Designer: Nah, rubber c uh this is a casing, yeah. Rubber casing, Marketing: Rather hard. Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen, uh it's just a casing uh around it. So um, you could go for plastic, but I figured {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have. Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber. User Interface: Uh, is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square? It isn't, I think, yeah? Industrial Designer: Well, m I don't know. No. Marketing: Well, I think that touch-screens are generally square. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape. User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics, Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker} User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm? Yeah okay, but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen, and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen. User Interface: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that would cover it. Marketing: That {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem. User Interface: Oh, yeah. Okay, I I get it. Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions? Uh rubber or plastic? I I I prefer rubber. Marketing: Yeah, me too. Project Manager: Me too. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, you too? User Interface: That's good. Industrial Designer: You sure? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit. User Interface: Well, as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm, and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. User Interface: I th I think that goes too far. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Oh. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No, that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place, Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker} User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh, tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_, well I figured we we all set on that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And uh, then also the simple versus advanced. Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_, we we should have the advanced. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay, well that's my uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Thank you. Industrial Designer: Uh, you're welcome. Marketing: Can I uh do my thing? Project Manager: Yeah. Do your thing, Tim. Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do your thing. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Bring it on. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: For marketing. Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan. In Paris and Milan, we uh asked different people, uh differing in age and in income, uh the amount of money to spend, um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays. Findings. Our main audience, uh so that's people below forty, uh prefer the following. At first, the colours of fruit. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Very basic colours, like Janus explained. Um, fresh colours, uh green, red, uh strawberry red, uh yellow, banana yellow. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Um, considering material, um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah. They like spongy material, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Spongeball. Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like a s soft material. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also. I think he did some uh some findings himself. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris? {vocalsound} Okay. Like this. Like big uh g flashy colours. Fresh. Project Manager: Flashy. Yeah. Marketing: It's nice, I think. Okay, our secondary audience, uh people above forty a forty years in age, they like the dark traditional colours. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh materials like wood that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of. Industrial Designer: Well, you could. You you could. Marketing: No n j just j just a w Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float. Marketing: No, okay, but just just a wooden uh look. Project Manager: Case. Oh, a wooden look, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor. User Interface: Tables. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway, but {disfmarker} Okay? {vocalsound} But, that's our secondary audience. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So, that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply.'Kay, the third. Uh, there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls. They have to look fancy. Um, they should be technological in innovative. That means uh there have to be fancy things in. Uh, and easy to use. But that's common. My personal preferences. We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience. And uh, therefore use fresh colours. Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh, I'll I'll come to that in a second point. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Here, think about removable covers, as seen in mobile telephon telephone market. To customise your own remote control. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers, uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one. Project Manager: Yeah. Okay. Marketing: Uh, a third, material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber. Um, two advantages. Uh, it fits within the current market trends. And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it. So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question, I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard. Like uh seen on regular mobile phones. Actually, they have a lot in common. The phones and the {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote, so {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Ah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone. User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: There are numbers on it, so uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: That might be a next step. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, in my second sheet of personal preferences, uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, it's very innovative. Innovative. Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_, and it goes to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like something. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies, like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff. But, we have to keep the cost in uh in mind, but it {disfmarker} User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, it it can be uh very expensive. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay, second. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh, also the link with uh mobile phones. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television, I think. Industrial Designer: Well, yeah. Marketing: No, but {disfmarker} No, okay. But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call. It's just the same. User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program, you can take the remote and do something else. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Marketing: When you're at college. Project Manager: You take your remote control with you. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school. {vocalsound} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No. You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games. Yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Well, I do that, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay, and um {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: And third, I stick with it, {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan, take parental control to a new dimension. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh. S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice. {vocalsound} Marketing: That's it. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap}. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay. Um the interface contents. Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there. But, the main concept is um take one big touch screen. Um, always display the primary buttons clear and visible. Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space. And uh make the menu structure changeable. So if you press um system, that's {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, well m multiple system options can, maybe five or ten or or one, can fit in. Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button. And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary. And um well, how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well, it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand. So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small, so you can put it in inside your hands. And some remotes you can use with your thumb. But I think that's too difficult for this one. So you can make it s a little broader. Yeah. And here? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons. And use your other hands on the menu structure. So here are gonna be the program buttons. One, two {vocalsound}, three, four, et cetera. And the the volume control and program control maybe. And, down here, um, I added, this could be one uh big L_C_D_. Um, the menu structure. So you can use it in uh in this way. Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind, keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here, um {disfmarker} And well, I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons. But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_, do not display twenty other options that are possible. Just keep it as simple as uh as possible. And do not use too many levels. Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus, and um push plus twenty times. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible. And um, well, you kn you all know the T_V_ levels. Um, channel one, two. And when you get to n to uh to ten, ye and want to go back, uh well you have a problem. Just m most most modern T_V_s, you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero, and it goes to ten. And else, to one and through after that. So the s a button less. And um, things like teletext, put them in the menu. Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Uh, what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, yeah w Yeah, I I find I must trying to uh tell it. Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer. {vocalsound} User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus? And this is program uh plus and minus. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five. User Interface: Yes. Marketing: But if you go from two to eight, and you want {disfmarker} User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen, and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, and on two. That you can switch switch easy. User Interface: Well yes, I think that's a good idea. But um, well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure. Marketing: Yeah it is. Yeah. User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times, well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen. You just don't have to play games uh in-between. But if you're really switching between two channels, you won't have time uh to d use the other options. Marketing: Mm no. User Interface: Um, yeah already already told that. Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it. User Interface: Yeah. That's my conclusion. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with. The parental control, the games, and the voice recognition. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote. I don't know how you think about it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Well, I agree, just put it in the menu structure somewhere. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Um, yeah um system properties, um parental control. Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents, children. User Interface: Yeah. Mm. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Something like that. User Interface: Um, w well, yeah. Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option, you have to {disfmarker} User Interface: It it has to be fast. You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings. Marketing: Yeah, ok Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television, and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer, so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_, uh a simple log-on, d you just push uh one or two or three. Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Pu push parents. User Interface: And if you push parents, then {disfmarker} Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in. User Interface: Yeah. To log in. Yeah. And if you puts a ye Marketing: Like two one three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: And it's in. User Interface: And if you w you push p children, uh you don't have to uh log in, but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it. Because well it's a simple function, but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it. Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it, Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker} Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah, you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff, and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah, they believe that children uh are influenced by the television, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Mm yeah. V violent T_V_. Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well, we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years. But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, maybe um some idea on that. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is, but make an option to insert profiles, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface:'cause if my grandad would buy this remote, he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just make it an option in menu, ins install powerful profiles or something. Project Manager: Yeah yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea? Marketing: Yeah, w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store, it has to be just simple and plain. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids, and I could choose between uh two remote controls. One uh w with parent control and one without, and I would would buy the one with. Project Manager: Yeah, with and one without. Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, b well, still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones. Marketing: I th Yeah. User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see, but well, {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think, oh yeah, for the f for all the standard channels, and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: because if you're watching uh, I don't know, you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh, cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night. {vocalsound} I don't know. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe it can work with show view. Uh, you you can control your video recorder with show view. User Interface: {gap} {gap} Project Manager: Uh, when you tick in a number, it will uh start and end uh recording. But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent, and that they are blocked out. User Interface: Yeah, the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all, Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible. User Interface: That isn't possible. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well, if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control, uh let's say we do, and and well whatever, cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well uh, nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel. Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: Well, yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then, but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well, I'm not sure because um for that to happen, you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control, so it would, yeah, have to be constant uh constant signalling. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control. And that uh provides parental control, for instance. And that's just an optional uh device. So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control, you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap} Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device. That that then then then it becomes too much, I think. Industrial Designer: Yeah? Project Manager: If we do it, we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile, a parent profile, and a family profile, and otherwise. Marketing: Yeah, and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, on a separate menu uh option. Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device, uh children can still go up to the T_V_, p pop open uh the thing and and and g Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Marketing: go to a channel. Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant, same happens when uh you have remote control. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, yeah of course. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But, only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it. Marketing: Yeah. Ah it's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, you {disfmarker} you'd be Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's just an an added feature feature. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition? I personally think that that becomes too much. User Interface: Yeah, well yeah, I {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality, but {disfmarker} User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh, hearing loud noises from the T_V_, someone screaming {vocalsound} one, and you f the channel switches, uh {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Mm yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, like f voice recognition is too much, I think. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: And games? Marketing: {vocalsound} games. It doesn't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. I can see games happening. Yeah. User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: That would {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote, Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources, I think. Project Manager: Okay. So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it, you think? Industrial Designer: Yeah, that will be nice. Project Manager: Okay. So the games uh are in it. The voice recognition are not. And the parental control are User Interface: Optional in Project Manager: optional? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's in it. But too ma I I think so, but {disfmarker} User Interface: But how we do it? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well, I think also it's a good idea, buts very difficult to incorporate. So we should make it too complex. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Is t some menu uh function, you choose parental control, and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem. Project Manager: Yeah, okay. Uh, but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Mm-hmm. Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option. Marketing: To put {disfmarker} User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, to put it in always. Project Manager: Yeah? User Interface: Yeah. And you can just uh s when you buy it, you can select um personal preference, parental control on, and the password or something. Project Manager: Mm yeah. Industrial Designer: Well, I don't know. I I figure if you had two different remotes, you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it. So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control. But it would would be uh more expensive. So, a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model. Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model, uh for instance. User Interface: Oh, it's a p Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, but T_V_s aren't capable of sending. Industrial Designer: Yes they are. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah? I thought they were just Project Manager: Yeah, you yo Industrial Designer: Yeah, you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker} Marketing: a able to receive. Yeah, some. But {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, but most often not. Industrial Designer: Yeah. That is true, that is true. User Interface: Well, maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs, where the parent says, you cannot watch channel seven, nine, and ten, and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control. Marketing: Yeah, j just some rules. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself. User Interface: No, no, it's very simple. There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah yeah. User Interface: So, the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock. Marketing: Yeah, okay. But, on the T_V_ User Interface: Yeah? Marketing: at least my T_V_, is a is a compartment which you can press. User Interface: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use, if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Well, that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt, that's not our problem. Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that is true. User Interface: You have to f Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could you could go like {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that. Yeah, yeah, sure. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Uh, I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it, but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Or j Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus, the energy, the combination between battery and kinetic. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber, in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen. Uh but there may not be too many buttons. And in the the menu structure, uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go. Uh, too uh too many levels. And uh it must be easy to use. The parental control will be incorporated, but it must be not too complex. And the games {gap} are in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh, okay. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Consensus. Project Manager: Uh, little more. Marketing: Oh. Oh. I I have one thing left. User Interface: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome. User Interface: Yeah? I'm listening. Marketing: Um, the views. Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view. Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Um, well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: User profile. Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view, you have a lot of more buttons. Project Manager: Yeah, but you have that in the {disfmarker} User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure, when you don't use it is simple. Project Manager: Yeah. You use the {disfmarker} User Interface: And when you push uh system properties, uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. It's already incorporated a little in that concept. Marketing: Mm yeah, okay. Fairly enough. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Well yeah, you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself, for the more advanced users. Marketing: Yeah, wh which buttons you like or not. Industrial Designer: Yeah, which buttons do you want to in it. Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button, and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Just leave the other numbers away. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, you could you could m have people want uh want that. Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting, okay? I have a little w uh little chat to do Marketing: Okay. Go on. Industrial Designer: Ah, yeah, sure. Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish. Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management. Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge, uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh Marketing: Marketing. Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management? Marketing: Management. Project Manager: Oh. {vocalsound} Just talking about myself. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, that's my function, to {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote, just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Import export. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Som some bench-marker. Project Manager: Uh, they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah, benchmarking, that's the word I saw. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay, uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey, and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider, instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us. So, we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company, uh a trustful company, and uh it has m Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product. Project Manager: Okay. Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: R_ three. Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: Mm-hmm? Project Manager: When you uh put on remote, you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone, you see a little uh animation. User Interface: Uh, logo. Yeah? Marketing: Bling. Project Manager: Real Reaction remote. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto, we put fashion in electronics. And then you go uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, okay, but it has to be like a split second, because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker} Project Manager: The {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds, they'll still remember it. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah. But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it. Industrial Designer: Well, if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen, you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom. Marketing: {gap} Yeah. Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there. Marketing: That spins around like all the time. Project Manager: Mm yep, yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that spins around or something. Project Manager: Also also. But we we are uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm. Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer. Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. A small icon. Project Manager: Okay, but uh think about that kind of things. User Interface: Yeah, I {disfmarker} It's ok For f Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class. {vocalsound} {gap}. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Oh, for the next meeting, right? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh, next meeting starts in thirty minutes. Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again. Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class? Project Manager: The master class? Marketing: Ronald Betenberg? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, thanks. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh, very special, uh next uh session. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard. So that's a kinda new uh thing. And um, the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation. Marketing: Ah. Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email. User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now? User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, the {disfmarker} well, uh dids this what I uh what I heard. I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: In the master class. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} P_. Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session, uh gentlemen. User Interface: Ah, no new email. Industrial Designer: Definitely. Marketing: Me too. Project Manager: I will thank you all. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Well thank you too. {vocalsound} User Interface: Thank you. Thank you very much. Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Thank you too, lord. Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh-huh. Marketing: {vocalsound}'Kay guys, lot of success. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish. User Interface: {vocalsound} See you. Industrial Designer: M Aye? Cheers. Project Manager: Cheers. See you in a half hour. Industrial Designer: Hey. Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions. Project Manager: Yeah, but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together. User Interface: Yeah. Here? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: That's not my problem. User Interface: Yeah. If you got a {disfmarker} Project Manager: Bye-bye. {vocalsound} User Interface: No. {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well, yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager. Project Manager: The project manager always works alone. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Right. Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email? User Interface: No. Don't get what's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Hmm.

This meeting was about conceptual design. Firstly, groupmates had three presentations on components, trend watching, and interface contents. Their target age group was below forty, so they suggested personal preferences on the remote, like the material, the battery, the speech recognition technology, etc. Then, they discussed the trendy features and decided to include parental control as well as the gaming features in the remote control. Finally, Project Manager shared some master class knowledge with group mates and suggested applying a marketing campaign, large provider marketing approach, and real reaction product idea.

tr-sq-765

tr-sq-765_0

Summarize the evaluation of the marketing expert on the prototype using the past user requirements and trends analysis. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh User Interface: Yo. Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound} Project Manager: eval eval evalu Industrial Designer: Evaluation. Project Manager: evaluation User Interface: Evaluation criteria. Marketing: Evaluation. Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro. Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay. Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem. Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh, User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics. User Interface: Oh. Yeah. Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start. User Interface: Ok okay. Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation. User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure. Marketing: J_ and J_. Project Manager: J_ and J_. User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay. Marketing: Jane and Jane. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away. User Interface: Take it away. Industrial Designer: Hi. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round. User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff. Project Manager: No, okay. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design, Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip. Marketing: Okay. Hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us. Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote. Marketing: Weemote. Project Manager: Weemote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this. Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually, User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable, Industrial Designer: so it d User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple, Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever. User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop. User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something, Marketing: Hmm. Mm. User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money. Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people. Marketing: Oui okay. Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard, User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah. Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that. User Interface: Uh-huh. Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical. User Interface: Okay, yeah. Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah. Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow. Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours. Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Not too, but w a little, User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: because that's our aim. Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: li like like this like this. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it? User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah. Industrial Designer: I f Marketing: {gap}. Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons, Marketing: Well I I I think so. Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model. Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us. Project Manager: Thank you. Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now. User Interface: It's my turn. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The Marketing Expert. Industrial Designer: Uh-oh. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: During the {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision. Project Manager: Okay, Marketing: Okay? Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw. Marketing: yeah? The prototype. Project Manager: Okay, just saw. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Seven? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Seven is false. Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry. Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, one I think. Industrial Designer: Why? Marketing: Most true? Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty. User Interface: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Marketing: so a o one is appropriate? User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle. Marketing: Or, more like a four. User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So, Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly. Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker} User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker} Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then. Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One? Project Manager: Yep. User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote. Industrial Designer: Yes. Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons. User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Yes. Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah. User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound} Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons? User Interface: Um, uh no. Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu. User Interface: You you've different menu. Industrial Designer: Yeah, false. Marketing: False? User Interface: And volume is impo Marketing: And volume? Project Manager: Volume is true. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm. Marketing: Big and clear? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}. User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear. Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear. User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six. Marketing: Hey. User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button. Marketing: Hey. Hide. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu. Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear, Marketing: J Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Five? Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found. User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound} User Interface: and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker} User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: have we deciding? Marketing: Oh, okay, User Interface: So {disfmarker} Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable? User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black. Marketing: A li little bit maybe? User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark. Marketing: Four? User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Fi Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing. User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah. Marketing: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}. Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four. Marketing: Four? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false. User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right. Industrial Designer: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four. Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think. Industrial Designer: Wha User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: B_. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah? Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing. Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker} Marketing: But, okay. Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh, User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours. Project Manager: True. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft. Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided. User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah. Marketing: Three? Project Manager: Three, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use, Project Manager: Easy to use. One. User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford. Marketing: Easy to use? Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker} Marketing: Top easy to use? Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker} User Interface: No, you can do two, because um Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It can be easier. User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest. User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so. Industrial Designer: Functional ability. Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap}. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound} Marketing: Two? Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two. User Interface: Yeah, m mine too. Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration. Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff. User Interface: These are the m regular remotes. Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yes, true, one. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: You're agree, Tim? Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course. Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound} Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: No. Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition. Project Manager: False. Industrial Designer: Yes, Marketing: False. Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker} User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this. Marketing: The remote control has built-in games? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game. Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one. Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in. User Interface: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not down. Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do. User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: Save as. Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe. Marketing: Okay, I will uh User Interface: Oh yay. Marketing: do the the math. User Interface: Oh dear. Marketing: Now it's your turn. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see. User Interface: Hmm? Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign. User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty. Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No. Industrial Designer: No. Project Manager: That's zero. Industrial Designer: Me, too. User Interface: Battery, yes. One. Project Manager: Battery, one? Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: One, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one? User Interface: Kinetic, one. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print? Industrial Designer: Uh, n no. Marketing: No. Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker? User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip is three. Project Manager: Three? Marketing: Three Euros, yep. Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap}. Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor? Industrial Designer: No, sev zero. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker} Marketing: Speech recognition, I think. User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one. Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: and s Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat. User Interface: No. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: A zero. Marketing: No. Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker} User Interface: You {disfmarker} no. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: No. No. Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound} Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, Marketing: Yes, User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker} Marketing: three. Eight. Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on. Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma Marketing: Two. User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry. Marketing: Two. Project Manager: Uh, rubber. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: You. Industrial Designer: Zero. Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound} User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour? Project Manager: Special colour? User Interface: Mm. Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour. Marketing: No. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on. Project Manager: Yeah, one. Marketing: That's another article to sell. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye? Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this. Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no. User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no. Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No. Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Uh, button, no. User Interface: One, yeah. Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker} User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: we don't have a s User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: These three. Project Manager: no. Okay. Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change? User Interface: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved. Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something? User Interface: Mm, single-curves. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it, User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah. Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure. User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Daniel. Daniel, Project Manager: Yo. Sorry, Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here. Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual. Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay. Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic, Marketing: Just an idea. User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}. User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay, Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem. Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option. User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem. Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker} Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh, User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip? Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation. User Interface: Curvy. Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for? Project Manager: Sorry? Marketing: The blue blue uh Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a User Interface: Explanation. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: explanation. User Interface: Twelve fifty. Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want. User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: No, no no. Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done. User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves. Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: But, you do l Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more. User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional. Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap} Industrial Designer: Function. User Interface: Functional. Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth? User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price. Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is. Marketing: No, we can't go above that. Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is. Marketing: Yeah? Project Manager: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay. Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I think so. Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks? User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Not freaks, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: the envi No. Industrial Designer: True. Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one. User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version. Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: thing. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound} Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: This is strange by the way. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it. Marketing: This is it. User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium. Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings? User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that. Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project. Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity. Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha. Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi Marketing: No, leadership was uh User Interface: Okay, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker} User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too. Marketing: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the Marketing: About me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound} Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better. User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus. Project Manager: yeah. User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive. Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed. User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay. Marketing: Two guys. Project Manager: The {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: No hard feelings. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while. User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult. Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker} User Interface: D uh just write your name right now. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Try to write your name, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah? Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line. Project Manager: okay. User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now. Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it. User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with, Marketing: Means. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen. User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting. Project Manager: No. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me. Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker} User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow. Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word. User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value. Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No. Marketing: Not really, no. Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think. User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise. Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker} User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this. User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller. Marketing: Smaller? User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter. Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small. User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Oh. Sorry. Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound} User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there. Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser. Marketing: Okay. New ideas? User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas? Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you? User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so. Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound} Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Here. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: The eva the evaluation, Project Manager: Oh yeah. Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six. Project Manager: That's interesting. Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think. Project Manager: Okay, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: because what does it mean? User Interface: So true. Marketing: Uh, that uh Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two. Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software? User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it. Project Manager: Not really, yeah? User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay, Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker} User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker} User Interface: More user-friendly. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: and you do Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that l Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen. Marketing: Hmm? No. User Interface: And that's a very bad concept. Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Ah, very bad. User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker} Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now. User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available? User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker} Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art. Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker} User Interface: So you can {disfmarker} Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink? User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com. Marketing: Type type it? User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}. Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_. Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry? Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay? User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: Huh. Project Manager: Well, that's nice. User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker} Marketing:'Kay, double-click it. User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker} Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry. Marketing: You're erasing. User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow. Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that. Marketing: Double-click it. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker} Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal, User Interface: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker} User Interface: {gap}. Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh User Interface: To use, yeah. Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: and we are now with four people, User Interface: And that's m Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker} Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah. User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance. Marketing: Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: What I really miss also is uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two, Project Manager: Yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven. Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism. Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application. Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Just a little group group decision application. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on. Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it, Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah. Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process. Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part. Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah. Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Yo, manager. Marketing: That's it? Project Manager: Uh well, just about, User Interface: When are w Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: because uh Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: When are we going to produce it? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget. Marketing: Celebration. Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker} Marketing: What is an end report? Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report. Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board. Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages. Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report. Marketing: Okay, Daniel. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe? User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: No no no, Marketing: Hey? Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report. Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no? Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker} User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound} Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet. Marketing: Five minutes for finishing. Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah. Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that. Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here. Marketing: Marketing. User Interface: It's a read-only version. Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that. Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second. Project Manager: So, this one's first. Marketing: S switch, yes. Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on. Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three. Marketing: Yes, very good. User Interface: One two three. Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important, Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}. Marketing: The order. Project Manager: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost. Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable. Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, the buttons Industrial Designer: It's not double. Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm? User Interface: A single-curved. Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh? Project Manager: Not double anymore. Marketing: No, okay. Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh? User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap. Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap, Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's very necessary. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think. Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Of directur or directors. Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it. Marketing: Real Reaction. Project Manager: Real Real Reaction. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah. User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now. Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think. Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes. User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned. Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned. Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_. User Interface: Okay, this n yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No. Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: Party party {gap}. Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting. User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first. Marketing: Save it. User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap} Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files. Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing. User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one. Marketing: Example of children remote. User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo. Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity. User Interface: Don't save it, aye? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now. User Interface: Uh, Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report. User Interface: saved? Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah.

The marketing expert confirmed with the group that the product was aimed at people with age below forty, but it was also designed for people above forty. The marketing expert also stated that people would need a teletext button because it was originally combined with the menu in the prototype. After that, the marketing expert discussed with the designers to design the prototype with fresh colours so it would be more discoverable when lost. They also agreed on the button numbers and the texture.

tr-sq-766

tr-sq-766_0

Summarize the discussion about the shape of the remote control. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh User Interface: Yo. Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound} Project Manager: eval eval evalu Industrial Designer: Evaluation. Project Manager: evaluation User Interface: Evaluation criteria. Marketing: Evaluation. Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro. Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay. Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem. Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh, User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics. User Interface: Oh. Yeah. Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start. User Interface: Ok okay. Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation. User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure. Marketing: J_ and J_. Project Manager: J_ and J_. User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay. Marketing: Jane and Jane. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away. User Interface: Take it away. Industrial Designer: Hi. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round. User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff. Project Manager: No, okay. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design, Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip. Marketing: Okay. Hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us. Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote. Marketing: Weemote. Project Manager: Weemote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this. Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually, User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable, Industrial Designer: so it d User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple, Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever. User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop. User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something, Marketing: Hmm. Mm. User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money. Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people. Marketing: Oui okay. Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard, User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah. Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that. User Interface: Uh-huh. Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical. User Interface: Okay, yeah. Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah. Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow. Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours. Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Not too, but w a little, User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: because that's our aim. Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: li like like this like this. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it? User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah. Industrial Designer: I f Marketing: {gap}. Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons, Marketing: Well I I I think so. Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model. Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us. Project Manager: Thank you. Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now. User Interface: It's my turn. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The Marketing Expert. Industrial Designer: Uh-oh. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: During the {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision. Project Manager: Okay, Marketing: Okay? Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw. Marketing: yeah? The prototype. Project Manager: Okay, just saw. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Seven? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Seven is false. Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry. Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, one I think. Industrial Designer: Why? Marketing: Most true? Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty. User Interface: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Marketing: so a o one is appropriate? User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle. Marketing: Or, more like a four. User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So, Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly. Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker} User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker} Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then. Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One? Project Manager: Yep. User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote. Industrial Designer: Yes. Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons. User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Yes. Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah. User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound} Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons? User Interface: Um, uh no. Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu. User Interface: You you've different menu. Industrial Designer: Yeah, false. Marketing: False? User Interface: And volume is impo Marketing: And volume? Project Manager: Volume is true. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm. Marketing: Big and clear? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}. User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear. Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear. User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six. Marketing: Hey. User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button. Marketing: Hey. Hide. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu. Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear, Marketing: J Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Five? Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found. User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound} User Interface: and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker} User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: have we deciding? Marketing: Oh, okay, User Interface: So {disfmarker} Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable? User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black. Marketing: A li little bit maybe? User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark. Marketing: Four? User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Fi Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing. User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah. Marketing: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}. Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four. Marketing: Four? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false. User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right. Industrial Designer: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four. Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think. Industrial Designer: Wha User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: B_. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah? Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing. Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker} Marketing: But, okay. Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh, User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours. Project Manager: True. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft. Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided. User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah. Marketing: Three? Project Manager: Three, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use, Project Manager: Easy to use. One. User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford. Marketing: Easy to use? Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker} Marketing: Top easy to use? Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker} User Interface: No, you can do two, because um Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It can be easier. User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest. User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so. Industrial Designer: Functional ability. Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap}. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound} Marketing: Two? Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two. User Interface: Yeah, m mine too. Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration. Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff. User Interface: These are the m regular remotes. Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yes, true, one. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: You're agree, Tim? Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course. Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound} Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: No. Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition. Project Manager: False. Industrial Designer: Yes, Marketing: False. Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker} User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this. Marketing: The remote control has built-in games? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game. Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one. Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in. User Interface: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not down. Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do. User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: Save as. Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe. Marketing: Okay, I will uh User Interface: Oh yay. Marketing: do the the math. User Interface: Oh dear. Marketing: Now it's your turn. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see. User Interface: Hmm? Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign. User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty. Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No. Industrial Designer: No. Project Manager: That's zero. Industrial Designer: Me, too. User Interface: Battery, yes. One. Project Manager: Battery, one? Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: One, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one? User Interface: Kinetic, one. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print? Industrial Designer: Uh, n no. Marketing: No. Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker? User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip is three. Project Manager: Three? Marketing: Three Euros, yep. Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap}. Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor? Industrial Designer: No, sev zero. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker} Marketing: Speech recognition, I think. User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one. Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: and s Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat. User Interface: No. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: A zero. Marketing: No. Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker} User Interface: You {disfmarker} no. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: No. No. Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound} Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, Marketing: Yes, User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker} Marketing: three. Eight. Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on. Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma Marketing: Two. User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry. Marketing: Two. Project Manager: Uh, rubber. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: You. Industrial Designer: Zero. Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound} User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour? Project Manager: Special colour? User Interface: Mm. Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour. Marketing: No. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on. Project Manager: Yeah, one. Marketing: That's another article to sell. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye? Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this. Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no. User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no. Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No. Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Uh, button, no. User Interface: One, yeah. Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker} User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: we don't have a s User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: These three. Project Manager: no. Okay. Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change? User Interface: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved. Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something? User Interface: Mm, single-curves. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it, User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah. Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure. User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Daniel. Daniel, Project Manager: Yo. Sorry, Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here. Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual. Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay. Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic, Marketing: Just an idea. User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}. User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay, Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem. Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option. User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem. Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker} Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh, User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip? Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation. User Interface: Curvy. Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for? Project Manager: Sorry? Marketing: The blue blue uh Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a User Interface: Explanation. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: explanation. User Interface: Twelve fifty. Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want. User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: No, no no. Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done. User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves. Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: But, you do l Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more. User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional. Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap} Industrial Designer: Function. User Interface: Functional. Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth? User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price. Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is. Marketing: No, we can't go above that. Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is. Marketing: Yeah? Project Manager: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay. Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I think so. Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks? User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Not freaks, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: the envi No. Industrial Designer: True. Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one. User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version. Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: thing. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound} Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: This is strange by the way. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it. Marketing: This is it. User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium. Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings? User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that. Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project. Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity. Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha. Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi Marketing: No, leadership was uh User Interface: Okay, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker} User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too. Marketing: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the Marketing: About me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound} Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better. User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus. Project Manager: yeah. User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive. Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed. User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay. Marketing: Two guys. Project Manager: The {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: No hard feelings. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while. User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult. Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker} User Interface: D uh just write your name right now. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Try to write your name, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah? Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line. Project Manager: okay. User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now. Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it. User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with, Marketing: Means. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen. User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting. Project Manager: No. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me. Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker} User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow. Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word. User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value. Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No. Marketing: Not really, no. Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think. User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise. Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker} User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this. User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller. Marketing: Smaller? User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter. Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small. User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Oh. Sorry. Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound} User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there. Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser. Marketing: Okay. New ideas? User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas? Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you? User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so. Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound} Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Here. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: The eva the evaluation, Project Manager: Oh yeah. Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six. Project Manager: That's interesting. Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think. Project Manager: Okay, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: because what does it mean? User Interface: So true. Marketing: Uh, that uh Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two. Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software? User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it. Project Manager: Not really, yeah? User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay, Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker} User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker} User Interface: More user-friendly. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: and you do Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that l Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen. Marketing: Hmm? No. User Interface: And that's a very bad concept. Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Ah, very bad. User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker} Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now. User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available? User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker} Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art. Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker} User Interface: So you can {disfmarker} Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink? User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com. Marketing: Type type it? User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}. Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_. Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry? Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay? User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: Huh. Project Manager: Well, that's nice. User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker} Marketing:'Kay, double-click it. User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker} Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry. Marketing: You're erasing. User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow. Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that. Marketing: Double-click it. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker} Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal, User Interface: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker} User Interface: {gap}. Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh User Interface: To use, yeah. Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: and we are now with four people, User Interface: And that's m Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker} Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah. User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance. Marketing: Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: What I really miss also is uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two, Project Manager: Yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven. Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism. Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application. Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Just a little group group decision application. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on. Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it, Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah. Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process. Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part. Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah. Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Yo, manager. Marketing: That's it? Project Manager: Uh well, just about, User Interface: When are w Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: because uh Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: When are we going to produce it? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget. Marketing: Celebration. Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker} Marketing: What is an end report? Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report. Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board. Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages. Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report. Marketing: Okay, Daniel. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe? User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: No no no, Marketing: Hey? Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report. Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no? Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker} User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound} Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet. Marketing: Five minutes for finishing. Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah. Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that. Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here. Marketing: Marketing. User Interface: It's a read-only version. Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that. Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second. Project Manager: So, this one's first. Marketing: S switch, yes. Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on. Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three. Marketing: Yes, very good. User Interface: One two three. Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important, Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}. Marketing: The order. Project Manager: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost. Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable. Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, the buttons Industrial Designer: It's not double. Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm? User Interface: A single-curved. Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh? Project Manager: Not double anymore. Marketing: No, okay. Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh? User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap. Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap, Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's very necessary. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think. Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Of directur or directors. Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it. Marketing: Real Reaction. Project Manager: Real Real Reaction. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah. User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now. Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think. Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes. User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned. Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned. Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_. User Interface: Okay, this n yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No. Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: Party party {gap}. Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting. User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first. Marketing: Save it. User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap} Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files. Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing. User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one. Marketing: Example of children remote. User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo. Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity. User Interface: Don't save it, aye? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now. User Interface: Uh, Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report. User Interface: saved? Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah.

At first the user interface designer wanted to make the remote control curvy. The marketing expert was skeptical of the curvy outlook because it was interrelated with the budget. The marketing expert was concerned as the expert thought it was not necessary. However, the user interface designer insisted on the curvy design as it had a strong aesthetic value. In the end, the designers compromised to make the remote control flat and single-curved instead of double-curved.

tr-sq-767

tr-sq-767_0

What did the user interface designer and the project manager discuss about the colour of the product? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh User Interface: Yo. Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound} Project Manager: eval eval evalu Industrial Designer: Evaluation. Project Manager: evaluation User Interface: Evaluation criteria. Marketing: Evaluation. Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro. Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay. Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem. Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh, User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics. User Interface: Oh. Yeah. Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start. User Interface: Ok okay. Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation. User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure. Marketing: J_ and J_. Project Manager: J_ and J_. User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay. Marketing: Jane and Jane. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away. User Interface: Take it away. Industrial Designer: Hi. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round. User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff. Project Manager: No, okay. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design, Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip. Marketing: Okay. Hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us. Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote. Marketing: Weemote. Project Manager: Weemote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this. Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually, User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable, Industrial Designer: so it d User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple, Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever. User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop. User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something, Marketing: Hmm. Mm. User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money. Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people. Marketing: Oui okay. Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard, User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah. Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that. User Interface: Uh-huh. Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical. User Interface: Okay, yeah. Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah. Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow. Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours. Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Not too, but w a little, User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: because that's our aim. Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: li like like this like this. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it? User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah. Industrial Designer: I f Marketing: {gap}. Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons, Marketing: Well I I I think so. Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model. Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us. Project Manager: Thank you. Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now. User Interface: It's my turn. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The Marketing Expert. Industrial Designer: Uh-oh. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: During the {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision. Project Manager: Okay, Marketing: Okay? Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw. Marketing: yeah? The prototype. Project Manager: Okay, just saw. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Seven? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Seven is false. Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry. Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, one I think. Industrial Designer: Why? Marketing: Most true? Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty. User Interface: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Marketing: so a o one is appropriate? User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle. Marketing: Or, more like a four. User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So, Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly. Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker} User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker} Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then. Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One? Project Manager: Yep. User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote. Industrial Designer: Yes. Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons. User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Yes. Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah. User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound} Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons? User Interface: Um, uh no. Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu. User Interface: You you've different menu. Industrial Designer: Yeah, false. Marketing: False? User Interface: And volume is impo Marketing: And volume? Project Manager: Volume is true. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm. Marketing: Big and clear? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}. User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear. Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear. User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six. Marketing: Hey. User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button. Marketing: Hey. Hide. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu. Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear, Marketing: J Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Five? Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found. User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound} User Interface: and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker} User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: have we deciding? Marketing: Oh, okay, User Interface: So {disfmarker} Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable? User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black. Marketing: A li little bit maybe? User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark. Marketing: Four? User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Fi Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing. User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah. Marketing: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}. Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four. Marketing: Four? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false. User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right. Industrial Designer: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four. Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think. Industrial Designer: Wha User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: B_. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah? Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing. Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker} Marketing: But, okay. Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh, User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours. Project Manager: True. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft. Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided. User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah. Marketing: Three? Project Manager: Three, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use, Project Manager: Easy to use. One. User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford. Marketing: Easy to use? Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker} Marketing: Top easy to use? Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker} User Interface: No, you can do two, because um Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It can be easier. User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest. User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so. Industrial Designer: Functional ability. Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap}. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound} Marketing: Two? Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two. User Interface: Yeah, m mine too. Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration. Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff. User Interface: These are the m regular remotes. Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yes, true, one. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: You're agree, Tim? Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course. Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound} Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: No. Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition. Project Manager: False. Industrial Designer: Yes, Marketing: False. Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker} User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this. Marketing: The remote control has built-in games? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game. Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one. Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in. User Interface: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not down. Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do. User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: Save as. Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe. Marketing: Okay, I will uh User Interface: Oh yay. Marketing: do the the math. User Interface: Oh dear. Marketing: Now it's your turn. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see. User Interface: Hmm? Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign. User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty. Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No. Industrial Designer: No. Project Manager: That's zero. Industrial Designer: Me, too. User Interface: Battery, yes. One. Project Manager: Battery, one? Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: One, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one? User Interface: Kinetic, one. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print? Industrial Designer: Uh, n no. Marketing: No. Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker? User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip is three. Project Manager: Three? Marketing: Three Euros, yep. Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap}. Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor? Industrial Designer: No, sev zero. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker} Marketing: Speech recognition, I think. User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one. Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: and s Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat. User Interface: No. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: A zero. Marketing: No. Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker} User Interface: You {disfmarker} no. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: No. No. Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound} Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, Marketing: Yes, User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker} Marketing: three. Eight. Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on. Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma Marketing: Two. User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry. Marketing: Two. Project Manager: Uh, rubber. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: You. Industrial Designer: Zero. Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound} User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour? Project Manager: Special colour? User Interface: Mm. Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour. Marketing: No. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on. Project Manager: Yeah, one. Marketing: That's another article to sell. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye? Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this. Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no. User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no. Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No. Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Uh, button, no. User Interface: One, yeah. Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker} User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: we don't have a s User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: These three. Project Manager: no. Okay. Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change? User Interface: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved. Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something? User Interface: Mm, single-curves. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it, User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah. Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure. User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Daniel. Daniel, Project Manager: Yo. Sorry, Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here. Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual. Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay. Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic, Marketing: Just an idea. User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}. User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay, Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem. Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option. User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem. Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker} Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh, User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip? Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation. User Interface: Curvy. Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for? Project Manager: Sorry? Marketing: The blue blue uh Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a User Interface: Explanation. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: explanation. User Interface: Twelve fifty. Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want. User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: No, no no. Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done. User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves. Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: But, you do l Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more. User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional. Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap} Industrial Designer: Function. User Interface: Functional. Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth? User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price. Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is. Marketing: No, we can't go above that. Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is. Marketing: Yeah? Project Manager: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay. Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I think so. Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks? User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Not freaks, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: the envi No. Industrial Designer: True. Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one. User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version. Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: thing. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound} Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: This is strange by the way. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it. Marketing: This is it. User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium. Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings? User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that. Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project. Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity. Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha. Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi Marketing: No, leadership was uh User Interface: Okay, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker} User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too. Marketing: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the Marketing: About me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound} Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better. User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus. Project Manager: yeah. User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive. Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed. User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay. Marketing: Two guys. Project Manager: The {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: No hard feelings. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while. User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult. Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker} User Interface: D uh just write your name right now. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Try to write your name, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah? Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line. Project Manager: okay. User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now. Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it. User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with, Marketing: Means. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen. User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting. Project Manager: No. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me. Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker} User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow. Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word. User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value. Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No. Marketing: Not really, no. Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think. User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise. Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker} User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this. User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller. Marketing: Smaller? User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter. Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small. User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Oh. Sorry. Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound} User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there. Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser. Marketing: Okay. New ideas? User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas? Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you? User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so. Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound} Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Here. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: The eva the evaluation, Project Manager: Oh yeah. Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six. Project Manager: That's interesting. Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think. Project Manager: Okay, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: because what does it mean? User Interface: So true. Marketing: Uh, that uh Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two. Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software? User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it. Project Manager: Not really, yeah? User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay, Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker} User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker} User Interface: More user-friendly. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: and you do Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that l Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen. Marketing: Hmm? No. User Interface: And that's a very bad concept. Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Ah, very bad. User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker} Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now. User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available? User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker} Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art. Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker} User Interface: So you can {disfmarker} Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink? User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com. Marketing: Type type it? User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}. Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_. Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry? Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay? User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: Huh. Project Manager: Well, that's nice. User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker} Marketing:'Kay, double-click it. User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker} Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry. Marketing: You're erasing. User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow. Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that. Marketing: Double-click it. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker} Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal, User Interface: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker} User Interface: {gap}. Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh User Interface: To use, yeah. Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: and we are now with four people, User Interface: And that's m Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker} Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah. User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance. Marketing: Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: What I really miss also is uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two, Project Manager: Yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven. Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism. Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application. Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Just a little group group decision application. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on. Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it, Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah. Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process. Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part. Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah. Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Yo, manager. Marketing: That's it? Project Manager: Uh well, just about, User Interface: When are w Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: because uh Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: When are we going to produce it? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget. Marketing: Celebration. Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker} Marketing: What is an end report? Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report. Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board. Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages. Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report. Marketing: Okay, Daniel. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe? User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: No no no, Marketing: Hey? Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report. Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no? Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker} User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound} Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet. Marketing: Five minutes for finishing. Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah. Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that. Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here. Marketing: Marketing. User Interface: It's a read-only version. Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that. Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second. Project Manager: So, this one's first. Marketing: S switch, yes. Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on. Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three. Marketing: Yes, very good. User Interface: One two three. Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important, Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}. Marketing: The order. Project Manager: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost. Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable. Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, the buttons Industrial Designer: It's not double. Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm? User Interface: A single-curved. Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh? Project Manager: Not double anymore. Marketing: No, okay. Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh? User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap. Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap, Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's very necessary. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think. Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Of directur or directors. Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it. Marketing: Real Reaction. Project Manager: Real Real Reaction. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah. User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now. Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think. Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes. User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned. Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned. Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_. User Interface: Okay, this n yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No. Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: Party party {gap}. Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting. User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first. Marketing: Save it. User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap} Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files. Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing. User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one. Marketing: Example of children remote. User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo. Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity. User Interface: Don't save it, aye? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now. User Interface: Uh, Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report. User Interface: saved? Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah.

The user interface designer was trying to implement a more dynamic and youthful colour on the remote control. However, the designers did not want it to be too childish and stated their will to make it more of an adult-style. Thus they wanted to use metallic grey as the colour of the appearance, and make an extra cover with flashy fruity colours to attract the broader public. Since their target aim was still younger people, a cover would make them more flexible to change the remote control into whatever colour they wanted.

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How did they discuss the kinetic function of the remote control? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh User Interface: Yo. Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound} Project Manager: eval eval evalu Industrial Designer: Evaluation. Project Manager: evaluation User Interface: Evaluation criteria. Marketing: Evaluation. Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro. Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay. Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem. Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh, User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics. User Interface: Oh. Yeah. Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start. User Interface: Ok okay. Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation. User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure. Marketing: J_ and J_. Project Manager: J_ and J_. User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay. Marketing: Jane and Jane. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away. User Interface: Take it away. Industrial Designer: Hi. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round. User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff. Project Manager: No, okay. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design, Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip. Marketing: Okay. Hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us. Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote. Marketing: Weemote. Project Manager: Weemote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this. Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually, User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable, Industrial Designer: so it d User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple, Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever. User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop. User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something, Marketing: Hmm. Mm. User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money. Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people. Marketing: Oui okay. Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard, User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah. Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that. User Interface: Uh-huh. Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical. User Interface: Okay, yeah. Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah. Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow. Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours. Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Not too, but w a little, User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: because that's our aim. Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: li like like this like this. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it? User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah. Industrial Designer: I f Marketing: {gap}. Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons, Marketing: Well I I I think so. Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model. Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us. Project Manager: Thank you. Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now. User Interface: It's my turn. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The Marketing Expert. Industrial Designer: Uh-oh. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: During the {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision. Project Manager: Okay, Marketing: Okay? Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw. Marketing: yeah? The prototype. Project Manager: Okay, just saw. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Seven? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Seven is false. Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry. Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, one I think. Industrial Designer: Why? Marketing: Most true? Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty. User Interface: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Marketing: so a o one is appropriate? User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle. Marketing: Or, more like a four. User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So, Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly. Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker} User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker} Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then. Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One? Project Manager: Yep. User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote. Industrial Designer: Yes. Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons. User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Yes. Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah. User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound} Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons? User Interface: Um, uh no. Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu. User Interface: You you've different menu. Industrial Designer: Yeah, false. Marketing: False? User Interface: And volume is impo Marketing: And volume? Project Manager: Volume is true. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm. Marketing: Big and clear? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}. User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear. Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear. User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six. Marketing: Hey. User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button. Marketing: Hey. Hide. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu. Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear, Marketing: J Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Five? Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found. User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound} User Interface: and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker} User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: have we deciding? Marketing: Oh, okay, User Interface: So {disfmarker} Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable? User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black. Marketing: A li little bit maybe? User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark. Marketing: Four? User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Fi Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing. User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah. Marketing: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}. Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four. Marketing: Four? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false. User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right. Industrial Designer: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four. Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think. Industrial Designer: Wha User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: B_. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah? Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing. Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker} Marketing: But, okay. Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh, User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours. Project Manager: True. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft. Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided. User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah. Marketing: Three? Project Manager: Three, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use, Project Manager: Easy to use. One. User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford. Marketing: Easy to use? Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker} Marketing: Top easy to use? Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker} User Interface: No, you can do two, because um Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It can be easier. User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest. User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so. Industrial Designer: Functional ability. Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap}. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound} Marketing: Two? Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two. User Interface: Yeah, m mine too. Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration. Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff. User Interface: These are the m regular remotes. Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yes, true, one. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: You're agree, Tim? Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course. Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound} Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: No. Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition. Project Manager: False. Industrial Designer: Yes, Marketing: False. Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker} User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this. Marketing: The remote control has built-in games? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game. Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one. Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in. User Interface: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not down. Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do. User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: Save as. Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe. Marketing: Okay, I will uh User Interface: Oh yay. Marketing: do the the math. User Interface: Oh dear. Marketing: Now it's your turn. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see. User Interface: Hmm? Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign. User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty. Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No. Industrial Designer: No. Project Manager: That's zero. Industrial Designer: Me, too. User Interface: Battery, yes. One. Project Manager: Battery, one? Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: One, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one? User Interface: Kinetic, one. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print? Industrial Designer: Uh, n no. Marketing: No. Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker? User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip is three. Project Manager: Three? Marketing: Three Euros, yep. Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap}. Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor? Industrial Designer: No, sev zero. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker} Marketing: Speech recognition, I think. User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one. Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: and s Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat. User Interface: No. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: A zero. Marketing: No. Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker} User Interface: You {disfmarker} no. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: No. No. Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound} Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, Marketing: Yes, User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker} Marketing: three. Eight. Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on. Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma Marketing: Two. User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry. Marketing: Two. Project Manager: Uh, rubber. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: You. Industrial Designer: Zero. Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound} User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour? Project Manager: Special colour? User Interface: Mm. Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour. Marketing: No. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on. Project Manager: Yeah, one. Marketing: That's another article to sell. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye? Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this. Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no. User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no. Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No. Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Uh, button, no. User Interface: One, yeah. Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker} User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: we don't have a s User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: These three. Project Manager: no. Okay. Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change? User Interface: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved. Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something? User Interface: Mm, single-curves. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it, User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah. Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure. User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Daniel. Daniel, Project Manager: Yo. Sorry, Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here. Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual. Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay. Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic, Marketing: Just an idea. User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}. User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay, Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem. Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option. User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem. Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker} Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh, User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip? Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation. User Interface: Curvy. Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for? Project Manager: Sorry? Marketing: The blue blue uh Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a User Interface: Explanation. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: explanation. User Interface: Twelve fifty. Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want. User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: No, no no. Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done. User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves. Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: But, you do l Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more. User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional. Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap} Industrial Designer: Function. User Interface: Functional. Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth? User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price. Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is. Marketing: No, we can't go above that. Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is. Marketing: Yeah? Project Manager: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay. Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I think so. Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks? User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Not freaks, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: the envi No. Industrial Designer: True. Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one. User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version. Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: thing. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound} Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: This is strange by the way. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it. Marketing: This is it. User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium. Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings? User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that. Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project. Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity. Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha. Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi Marketing: No, leadership was uh User Interface: Okay, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker} User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too. Marketing: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the Marketing: About me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound} Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better. User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus. Project Manager: yeah. User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive. Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed. User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay. Marketing: Two guys. Project Manager: The {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: No hard feelings. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while. User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult. Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker} User Interface: D uh just write your name right now. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Try to write your name, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah? Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line. Project Manager: okay. User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now. Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it. User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with, Marketing: Means. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen. User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting. Project Manager: No. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me. Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker} User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow. Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word. User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value. Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No. Marketing: Not really, no. Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think. User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise. Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker} User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this. User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller. Marketing: Smaller? User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter. Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small. User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Oh. Sorry. Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound} User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there. Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser. Marketing: Okay. New ideas? User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas? Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you? User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so. Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound} Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Here. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: The eva the evaluation, Project Manager: Oh yeah. Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six. Project Manager: That's interesting. Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think. Project Manager: Okay, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: because what does it mean? User Interface: So true. Marketing: Uh, that uh Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two. Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software? User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it. Project Manager: Not really, yeah? User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay, Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker} User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker} User Interface: More user-friendly. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: and you do Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that l Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen. Marketing: Hmm? No. User Interface: And that's a very bad concept. Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Ah, very bad. User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker} Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now. User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available? User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker} Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art. Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker} User Interface: So you can {disfmarker} Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink? User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com. Marketing: Type type it? User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}. Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_. Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry? Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay? User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: Huh. Project Manager: Well, that's nice. User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker} Marketing:'Kay, double-click it. User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker} Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry. Marketing: You're erasing. User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow. Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that. Marketing: Double-click it. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker} Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal, User Interface: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker} User Interface: {gap}. Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh User Interface: To use, yeah. Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: and we are now with four people, User Interface: And that's m Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker} Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah. User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance. Marketing: Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: What I really miss also is uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two, Project Manager: Yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven. Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism. Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application. Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Just a little group group decision application. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on. Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it, Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah. Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process. Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part. Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah. Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Yo, manager. Marketing: That's it? Project Manager: Uh well, just about, User Interface: When are w Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: because uh Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: When are we going to produce it? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget. Marketing: Celebration. Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker} Marketing: What is an end report? Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report. Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board. Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages. Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report. Marketing: Okay, Daniel. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe? User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: No no no, Marketing: Hey? Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report. Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no? Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker} User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound} Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet. Marketing: Five minutes for finishing. Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah. Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that. Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here. Marketing: Marketing. User Interface: It's a read-only version. Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that. Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second. Project Manager: So, this one's first. Marketing: S switch, yes. Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on. Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three. Marketing: Yes, very good. User Interface: One two three. Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important, Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}. Marketing: The order. Project Manager: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost. Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable. Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, the buttons Industrial Designer: It's not double. Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm? User Interface: A single-curved. Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh? Project Manager: Not double anymore. Marketing: No, okay. Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh? User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap. Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap, Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's very necessary. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think. Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Of directur or directors. Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it. Marketing: Real Reaction. Project Manager: Real Real Reaction. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah. User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now. Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think. Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes. User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned. Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned. Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_. User Interface: Okay, this n yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No. Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: Party party {gap}. Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting. User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first. Marketing: Save it. User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap} Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files. Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing. User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one. Marketing: Example of children remote. User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo. Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity. User Interface: Don't save it, aye? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now. User Interface: Uh, Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report. User Interface: saved? Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah.

The project manager wanted to remove the kinetic function as the manager thought it would be a desirable cost reduction. However, the industrial designer did not agree with the project manager because the designer thought it would be a good marketing promotion as people would think that remote controls with kinetic function are cool. Since they still wanted the price to remain on the same level, they decided to adapt the control into a flat one so as to minimize the cost.

tr-gq-769

tr-gq-769_0

Summarize the whole meeting. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager. {vocalsound} Uh, what we going to do. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Um, once again I'm uh gonna take minutes. So, um no presentation for me. Uh, first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh User Interface: Yo. Marketing: J_ and J_. {vocalsound} Project Manager: eval eval evalu Industrial Designer: Evaluation. Project Manager: evaluation User Interface: Evaluation criteria. Marketing: Evaluation. Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria. Uh, in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Hmm. Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on. Um, you see. Uh, and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro. Marketing: Hmm. Interesting. Ah, okay. Project Manager: So, that's uh that's a big User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops. Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be t problem. Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh, User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah, quite a lot of mathematics. User Interface: Oh. Yeah. Project Manager: And after that, uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard, with the with our laptops, with the {disfmarker} all uh all this. And uh afterwards, uh we closing. Once again, forty minutes, so uh let's start. User Interface: Ok okay. Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation. User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, well sure. Marketing: J_ and J_. Project Manager: J_ and J_. User Interface: Okay. {vocalsound} J_ and J_, okay. Marketing: Jane and Jane. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing:'Kay guys, take it away. User Interface: Take it away. Industrial Designer: Hi. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, this was our first concept. We decided to use a single touch-screen. So, we've worked out this concepts, how to how to hold it, where to put the buttons and and stuff. And um, well, we began with uh with a form of shape, that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand, left or right handed. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: So, we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning. No? This uh isn't nothing. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um well, during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top, usable with your thumb, and uh the menu structure, uh if necessary, with your other hand, so it's just gonna hold it easily. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too, of course. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh well, and as you saw, we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen. Well, these would be the main buttons, h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to. But, well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up. We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here. We have the sub-menus and stu stuff. We made a top {disfmarker} oh, or a front view. Just so like you wanna uh back view. As you can see, this uh {disfmarker} there, there are uh two uh weird bumps in it. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic. And uh this is for the artistic effect. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that. But, idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two. Marketing: Hmm. Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table, it will just {gap} lay down. It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff. But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe, or like these old uh phones. Project Manager: Mm. Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea. So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be. The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers, like we discussed early on. Uh, you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel, but more fluidly and round. User Interface: Yeah, the panel just uh of course goes like this. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff. Project Manager: No, okay. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: And uh, in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design, Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And uh, about the colour, what have {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Oh, we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah, one and a half centimetres. So, you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips. S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip. Marketing: Okay. Hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, f uh, as colours, do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah. Now, well this is the idea about uh the bumps. Uh, you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior. It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us. Marketing:'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's like an e but this is for children. We we want a more adult version. But, this is like a remote control for children. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}. A weemote. Marketing: Weemote. Project Manager: Weemote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Hey, that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh, but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea. We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this. Project Manager: Yeah, I can imagine that. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours, we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey. Those are the technological colours actually, User Interface: Yeah. It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable, Industrial Designer: so it d User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple, Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever. User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control, it would be less appealing than a white one. And young people, we think, are a little bit more flexible, Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: they think, ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover, so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop. User Interface: Well, um I think a cover is necessary,'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. User Interface: So, there must be some cheap standard cover, um maybe white or something, Marketing: Hmm. Mm. User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy, so we can make extra money. Project Manager: Yeah, but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people. Marketing: Oui okay. Project Manager: Uh, we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it, uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features. So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard, User Interface: Okay. The other way around, you mean. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah. Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated, more traditional look, they're willing to pay uh that. User Interface: Uh-huh. Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that. User Interface: Mm-hmm. Project Manager: So, maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah, maybe {disfmarker} yeah, perhaps you're right. Uh, I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical. User Interface: Okay, yeah. Marketing: An another idea. Uh, maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Well yeah, a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style, a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour, but not too not too much. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah. Marketing: Yes. Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah. User Interface: This is banana and mango, not not purple or p orange and yellow. Marketing: Yeah, exactly. Project Manager: Yeah. But, the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours. Marketing: Yeah. Or blue or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Not too, but w a little, User Interface: Ah. Mm-hmm. Project Manager: because that's our aim. Industrial Designer: Yeah, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: li like like this like this. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much, is it? User Interface: Yeah, okay. No. Yeah. Industrial Designer: I f Marketing: {gap}. Project Manager: Well, the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap} Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} The buttons, Marketing: Well I I I think so. Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model. Project Manager: yeah. It {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah, uh something like this would be nice. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: Okay, that's that's it from us. Project Manager: Thank you. Marketing:'Kay, it's my time now. User Interface: It's my turn. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: The Marketing Expert. Industrial Designer: Uh-oh. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: During the {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh. {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff. Um, now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements. {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. Um, we're going to do that with a seven point scale. Opening a Word document now. Okay. One {disfmarker} oh, okay, uh I have to expla explain something. We have to uh be consensive about about things. So, it has to be a group uh group decision. Project Manager: Okay, Marketing: Okay? Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote. We {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, the the thing we {gap} saw. Marketing: yeah? The prototype. Project Manager: Okay, just saw. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, one. The remote control is designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Yeah. Seven? Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Seven is false. Project Manager: Uh, true. {vocalsound} Sorry. Marketing: Yeah, b one or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, one I think. Industrial Designer: Why? Marketing: Most true? Industrial Designer: Yeah, it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty. It's also designed for people above forty. User Interface: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Marketing: so a o one is appropriate? User Interface: No no, a little more in the middle. Marketing: Or, more like a four. User Interface: No, uh three or {disfmarker} yeah. Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Industrial Designer: Yeah, two or three, because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty. Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty. So, Marketing: Ah, exactly. Exactly. Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty, but also appealing to {disfmarker} Marketing: Three. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. But also for {disfmarker} yeah, okay. Uh, second. The remote control is beautiful. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, acco according to us, it's one? Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah, I I think {disfmarker} User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television. Industrial Designer: Yeah. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker} Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Well, it's also fancy then. Marketing: Three. Uh, the remote control looks fancy. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One? Project Manager: Yep. User Interface: Of course. We have a perfect remote. Industrial Designer: Yes. Marketing: Good. Four. The remote control has big, clear channel switching buttons. User Interface: Yes. Yeah yeah, oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Yes. Industrial Designer: Leads to user face, yeah. User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert. {vocalsound} Marketing: Daniel. Uh, teletext buttons and volume buttons? User Interface: Um, uh no. Project Manager: No teletext buttons. Teletext is in the menu. User Interface: You you've different menu. Industrial Designer: Yeah, false. Marketing: False? User Interface: And volume is impo Marketing: And volume? Project Manager: Volume is true. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: Uh, hmm. Marketing: Big and clear? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, the they are big and clear. {gap}. User Interface: Yeah yeah, big and clear. Project Manager: Yeah, big and clear. User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six. Marketing: Hey. User Interface: Otherwise, the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button. Marketing: Hey. Hide. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, but but the teletext button. Yeah, you can ch That's in a menu. Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: So, it's w yeah, it {disfmarker} it it Marketing: yeah, it {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear, Marketing: J Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So, I wouldn't give it a seven. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Five? Industrial Designer: Uh, I don I don't know. Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: What do you think, uh Mister Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Oh, okay. Well, I agree. I was thinking very black and white. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Hmm. User Interface: Black and red. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay, don't forget to save it. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Red. Okay. Volume. The remote control is easy to be found. User Interface: Uh well, when we put in fancy colours, yeah Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity. {vocalsound} User Interface: and {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: So, if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker} User Interface: But, um it it's not making any sound uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: have we deciding? Marketing: Oh, okay, User Interface: So {disfmarker} Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed, or you throw this remote control under your bed, is it better findable? User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference. We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know. Yeah, I think so. My remote control's black. Marketing: A li little bit maybe? User Interface: A little bit, but {disfmarker} yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Well, we p we can do it glow in the dark. Marketing: Four? User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Fi Project Manager: So, if it's in the dark place, you still see it glowing. User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah. Marketing: I {disfmarker} User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap}. Marketing: Ah, I I I think five. It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Well, then uh then I'll go for four. Marketing: Four? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false. User Interface: Yeah, okay, you're right. Industrial Designer: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, but five is between four and six. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four. Project Manager: Ah, you must see it as uh, w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls, there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room, this one will stand out, I think. Industrial Designer: Wha User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: B_. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, that that's a better question actually. Marketing: Yeah, Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer, uh you find it, yeah? Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch, you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing. Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that's stupid. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Like, no not uh not seeing it, but lost it in the house or something. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. User Interface: Uh, but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker} Marketing: But, okay. Industrial Designer: Well, if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere, uh then you'd uh recognise it as, whoa, that is strange. Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, mostly when you lose your remote control, it it's under your {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, okay. Yeah, I I agree, I agree. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah, what is that. Uh, User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it. Uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay. Eight, the remote control has fresh, fruity colours. Project Manager: True. {vocalsound} User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours, as it would not {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, not too flashy. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Um, Industrial Designer: Yeah, rubber, is kind of soft. Project Manager: Yeah, but not too soft we have decided. User Interface: kinda soft, but but not this {gap}. Yeah. Marketing: Three? Project Manager: Three, yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Yeah yeah, easy to use, Project Manager: Easy to use. One. User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford. Marketing: Easy to use? Project Manager: Yeah, can it be zero? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Well, {vocalsound} I don yeah, it is kind of {disfmarker} Marketing: Top easy to use? Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker} User Interface: No, you can do two, because um Industrial Designer: No. Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It can be easier. User Interface: it can be easier. But then you're l Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons, that's the easiest. User Interface: yeah, but then you'll lose {gap} Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: function f yeah, functionality and our fancy uh look, so. Industrial Designer: Functional ability. Marketing: Yeah, but the most uh easy to use is just with one button User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use, because you have the primary buttons always visible. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah, okay, but easy n not not the most easy to use, I think. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap}. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No, it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two. My vote's on two. {vocalsound} Marketing: Two? Project Manager: Okay, two. Yeah, two. User Interface: Yeah, m mine too. Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays. So {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but waits just a minutes. Inspiration. Project Manager: What's the time? We also have uh to do the evaluation, uh the production costs and uh stuff. User Interface: These are the m regular remotes. Marketing: Yeah yeah, I'm uh hurrying. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, eleven. The remote control is innovative. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yes, true, one. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: You're agree, Tim? Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course. Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris? {vocalsound} Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes, one. Very multifunctional. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: No. Marketing: The remote control, i it has speech recognition. Project Manager: False. Industrial Designer: Yes, Marketing: False. Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker} User Interface: This is used with speech recognition, this. Marketing: The remote control has built-in games? Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. But uh, maybe make it two, because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game. Project Manager: Yeah, but they are built in, so it's one. Industrial Designer: Yeah, they are built in. User Interface: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay. {gap} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Not down. Marketing: And the last, paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Project Manager: Freak. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes, {vocalsound} I do. User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Bu Marketing: Save as. Industrial Designer: Yeah, he made it. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe. Marketing: Okay, I will uh User Interface: Oh yay. Marketing: do the the math. User Interface: Oh dear. Marketing: Now it's your turn. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see. User Interface: Hmm? Project Manager: Mm. Okay, we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost. If it's under uh twelve and half Euro, then it's uh ok uh okay. But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh? No, this isn't right. Okay so, {gap}. Redesign. User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty. Project Manager: Oh yeah, if they under {disfmarker} Yeah. No. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah? Cau'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: sorry. Yeah, if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro, uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation, as we have uh experienced it. Otherwise, we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy. So {disfmarker} Uh, we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components. We have to uh fil uh, want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro. So, do we have uh a hand dynamo? No. Industrial Designer: No. Project Manager: That's zero. Industrial Designer: Me, too. User Interface: Battery, yes. One. Project Manager: Battery, one? Industrial Designer: Yes. User Interface: One, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay. Kinetic, one? User Interface: Kinetic, one. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, solar cells, zero. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Okay, uh simple chip on print? Industrial Designer: Uh, n no. Marketing: No. Project Manager: No? No, advanced chip. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip. Industrial Designer: Yes. Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker? User Interface: No, the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: No. Marketing: Advanced chip is three. Project Manager: Three? Marketing: Three Euros, yep. Project Manager: Yeah uh, but it it's one one thing, it's three Euro. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh, we have one. We have one {disfmarker} Marketing: Okay, one piece, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap}. Project Manager: Uh, what's the sample sensor? Industrial Designer: No, sev zero. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: Well, that's um {disfmarker} Marketing: Speech recognition, I think. User Interface: Yeah, you give it a sample, uh one. Industrial Designer: yeah, speech recognition Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: and s Project Manager: Zero. Uh, uncurved flat. User Interface: No. Project Manager: No. Industrial Designer: A zero. Marketing: No. Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker} User Interface: You {disfmarker} no. Marketing: No. Industrial Designer: No. No. Marketing: Thingy. {vocalsound} Project Manager: no? Okay. {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, Marketing: Yes, User Interface:'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker} Marketing: three. Eight. Project Manager: Okay. We're now in a problem,'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh, we don't have anything else. So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay, go on. Just go on. Project Manager: Okay, but uh we have {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Just go on. Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget. Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma Marketing: Two. User Interface: Yeah. Oh, sorry. Marketing: Two. Project Manager: Uh, rubber. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Project Manager: You. Industrial Designer: Zero. Project Manager: Titanium, no? {vocalsound} User Interface: And zero. Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour? Project Manager: Special colour? User Interface: Mm. Industrial Designer: I don't think so. No, this is a standard colour. Marketing: No. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, but we want to make uh the wood colours, uh that uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} S Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes, this is a special colour. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, if if you're honest, we'll uh type one, special colour. Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah, but but D but Daniel, tha that's that's another brand. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on. Project Manager: Yeah, one. Marketing: That's another article to sell. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} User Interface: Uh, j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back, aye? Marketing: That doesn't account for this. Producing this. Project Manager: Okay, the push-button, no. User Interface: No. Scroll wheel, no. Project Manager: Scroll-wheel, no. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No. Project Manager: No. Oh, no. Yes, one. User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} Project Manager: Uh, button, no. User Interface: One, yeah. Project Manager: No, the the {disfmarker} User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: No. User Interface: Mm, is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: we don't have a s User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: These three. Project Manager: no. Okay. Industrial Designer: Well, we're only four Euro over budget. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Oh, okay. So, um what's the thing we can change? User Interface: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} User Interface: No. No. Industrial Designer: Well, other case, we can make it single-curved or uncurved. Project Manager: Uh, can I uh I say something? User Interface: Mm, single-curves. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: No, can I say something uh as Project Manager? Marketing: Yeah, of course. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: The kinetic thing, can we just skip it, User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah. Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it, but that's not really innovative. User Interface: Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Okay, sure. User Interface: yeah. {vocalsound} Yeah, we just put a good battery it it. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Daniel. Daniel, Project Manager: Yo. Sorry, Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here. Project Manager: yeah, yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it, but also selling like uh the covers, a docking station Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: just apart from the from the thing, so that you can uh put uh Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay. User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway, just you s you have to recharge them manual. Project Manager: Yeah, and not really {gap}. Marketing: Yeah, yeah, okay. Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic, Marketing: Just an idea. User Interface: Yeah, that's a cost reduc Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: well if we do that, we shall {gap}. User Interface: Ah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay, Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved. Marketing: Yeah, of course. Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem. Project Manager: Uh, b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, so we have to bake the ba back flat, and then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: No, it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think. Or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well, the single-curve that {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oh, okay, okay. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option. User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves? Uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: And then w yeah, and then we could have it, but uh {disfmarker} it's its'well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, but what else uh do we have to cut out? No advanced chip, uh that's a little bit of problem. Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker} Project Manager: No, tho uh that that can be done. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So uh, User Interface: Although, can we make it with a regular chip? Project Manager: okay, a little less uh conversation. User Interface: Curvy. Marketing: Hey, those ar arcs, why are there for? Project Manager: Sorry? Marketing: The blue blue uh Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a User Interface: Explanation. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: explanation. User Interface: Twelve fifty. Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want. User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: No, no no. Project Manager: So, if we do this, uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro. And we're done. User Interface: Yeah, but does it fit with our design? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well, the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it? It's single-curves. Project Manager: Yeah, single-curved, but there's a curve in it. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back, and then we're uh has {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, we just make it flat. User Interface: Okay. Industrial Designer: But, you do l Marketing: But, wha'Kay, look, what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved, it costs one Euro more. User Interface: More. Yeah. You make it optional. Marketing: But {disfmarker} No, but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap} Industrial Designer: Function. User Interface: Functional. Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Worth, does it have added worth? User Interface: Uh, there's an a a athe aesthetic value, but not functionality. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, um {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's really a static value. Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, uh aesthetic. I mean, uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half. But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price. Project Manager: Yeah, it is. Oh. Industrial Designer: Yeah, well let's assume it is. Marketing: No, we can't go above that. Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is. Marketing: Yeah? Project Manager: Yeah, okay. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Then it's okay. Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control, I mean, that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Do you think? Well, now you can shake your remote {gap} control. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I think so. Industrial Designer: No, well, y I mean uh, y you can go into your neighbour and tell him, ha, my k uh remote control is kinetic. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks? User Interface: Yeah, but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile. So {disfmarker} Marketing: Not freaks, Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: the envi No. Industrial Designer: True. Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one. User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version. Project Manager: Yeah? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic, you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: thing. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve, {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, just one big curve. {vocalsound} Project Manager: yeah, one big good curve. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words, but I don't. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: This is strange by the way. Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber. We thought that wood would be more expensive. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Uh, this uh American figures. You just cut down some trees. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah, maybe. But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it? Yeah. Okay, this is it. Marketing: This is it. User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium. Project Manager: I'm gonna save it. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: It is possible, but you can't use double uh curves for titanium. User Interface: No. Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay, well, considering we have {disfmarker} Marketing: Ah no, we have to do all those hours again. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go back. One back? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, we were above, so we did a little redesign {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: We sue. {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah, we'll start her all o all over again. Marketing: Yeah, {gap} {disfmarker} okay, yeah. Project Manager: Okay, um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project. Uh, some uh things. Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings? User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Marketing: Hmm. I I didn't think so. That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it. But, that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there, and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff. Bu Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I agree with that. Industrial Designer: Well, I th I think you two, {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel, you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project. Project Manager: Yeah. That's true. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: For us, there was a lot of creativity. Industrial Designer:'Cause I think m User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I, we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Project Manager: Okay. Uh how about the leadership? {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha. Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy. {vocalsound} Cra Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah, the leadership wasn't crappy, it was the leader that was crappy. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, thank you very much. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah. No, the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now we're done. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah, example of crappy leadershi Marketing: No, leadership was uh User Interface: Okay, yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, it was good. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting. Project Manager: Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Uh, you could have {disfmarker} but uh, it was your first, no uh no disrespect or something, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: So like, I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting, and {disfmarker} User Interface: You could of said, shut up you fool. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. I notice it too. Marketing: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy, uh very unsatisfied uh about the Marketing: About me. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake. {vocalsound} And we will never do it again. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, you made up. {vocalsound} Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it {disfmarker} you did better. User Interface: Yeah, more more consensus. Project Manager: yeah. User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Much more constructive. Project Manager: Okay, so uh that's cool. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Uh, teamwork? Well, maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well, it's for us, because uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, we work together on a project, but everybody has his own task. Project Manager: Yeah. Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed. User Interface: So, it is a little bit {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: But, really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. No {disfmarker} Well, it went okay. Marketing: Two guys. Project Manager: The {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, that went w it went well. Project Manager: Yeah? Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen, but uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: No hard feelings. Industrial Designer: Nah. Yeah, we we had some trouble with the pen, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah. Now you you must push a little while. User Interface: Yeah, but but draw something uh difficult. Industrial Designer: Yeah, but us {disfmarker} User Interface: D uh just write your name right now. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Try to write your name, Project Manager: Okay. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: in in writing letters, of course, yeah? Yeah, normally, uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it, yeah? Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line. Project Manager: okay. User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now. Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker,'cause then it it won't notice it. User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works, yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh. Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard, so I think that's the that's the main issue. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um, so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with, Marketing: Means. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen. User Interface: Y well, yeah. Th the i The idea is great, but it doesn't work properly. Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay. Yeah. Marketing: Digital pen, I thought uh th the first time I did individual work, I used it. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: But, a and the first two meetings I brought it with me, but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting. Project Manager: No. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: No, I have it working. But, uh yeah, well uh {disfmarker} Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me. Industrial Designer: No, it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker} Project Manager: Huh. Well {disfmarker} User Interface: Nee. As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago, it {disfmarker} I would like, myself, to write with a normal pen, because must um {disfmarker} Yeah, it's almost the same concept, but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen, where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow. Project Manager: M yeah. Yeah. And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word. User Interface: Yes. No, and it doesn't give any added value. Project Manager: No, uh that's true. No. Marketing: Not really, no. Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful, but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly, I think. User Interface: Yeah, not user-friendly. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things, Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah, and it's it's not very precise. Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker} User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, like when you do this. User Interface: Yeah, it may um {disfmarker} Yeah, and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size, yeah. Smaller. Marketing: Smaller? User Interface: Yeah, smaller. Just like when you're writing on a letter. Project Manager: Yeah, but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience, you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small. User Interface: No, a as you saw on on this drawing, just open open this one or that one. It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah, uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons, it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Oh. Sorry. Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no, it isn't. With uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And the eraser was another problem. It w t is is this large. {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line, y {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna erase my uh name. {vocalsound} User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there. Project Manager: Yeah, it's a big uh big eraser. Marketing: Okay. New ideas? User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas? Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well, the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you? User Interface: Yeah, uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: Go on. {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software, about about the project, about the remote controls or {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Mm, yeah, I think so. Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean. {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No. User Interface: Hello. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said? Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean. {vocalsound} Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean. {vocalsound} Oh, I have some figure. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Here. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh. Marketing: The eva the evaluation, Project Manager: Oh yeah. Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six. Project Manager: That's interesting. Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good, I think. Project Manager: Okay, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: because what does it mean? User Interface: So true. Marketing: Uh, that uh Project Manager: All the mo yeah, are between one and two. Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true, right. Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you, expert. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software? User Interface: Not really, just they have to improve it. Project Manager: Not really, yeah? User Interface: Uh, the concept is okay, Project Manager: Yeah, I think {disfmarker} User Interface: but it has to be quicker. Uh, it is still opening my programme, n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and it, yeah, just takes too many time. People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it, and {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah. You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker} User Interface: More user-friendly. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause when you use a pen, you can just draw like you d draw normally, Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: and you do Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: And draw it, and it's it's placed over there. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, that l Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Would be easier. Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology, just you can write in the way you normally write. And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen. Marketing: Hmm? No. User Interface: And that's a very bad concept. Project Manager: Yep, yep. Yeah, that's true. Marketing: Ah, very bad. User Interface: Nah, okay, I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker} Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs, but {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, it's can be saved easier. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text. There's no text option. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh, yeah, you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square. You have to draw it yourself now. User Interface: Yeah. Or maybe even insert picture. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: If you have uh some presentation, and you have some f Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or text function. Just t t type text, and that that would be uh excellent. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, but insert image isn't available? User Interface: {vocalsound}'Cause then you could {disfmarker} Marketing: Here. Picture from scanner, clip-art. Project Manager: Yeah, that that can be done already. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker} User Interface: So you can {disfmarker} Marketing: Hyperlink? Hey, what if you do like hyperlink? User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com. Marketing: Type type it? User Interface: Oh yeah. Maybe {gap}. Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_. Project Manager: Hmm? Sorry? Marketing: Yes, is {disfmarker} now is okay. Okay? User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah. {vocalsound} Marketing: Huh. Project Manager: Well, that's nice. User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker} Marketing:'Kay, double-click it. User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker} Project Manager: Here. oh. Oh, sorry. Marketing: You're erasing. User Interface: Something else th Yeah, arrow. Project Manager: Yeah. Here, that. Marketing: Double-click it. User Interface: Okay. Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Well, it's {disfmarker} Project Manager: as you saw, you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh, you can {disfmarker} Yeah, thank you. You can go uh User Interface: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: there. So there the the the functionality is there, but it's not it's not ideal, User Interface: But {disfmarker} Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker} User Interface: {gap}. Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh User Interface: To use, yeah. Project Manager: to use. And that's a pity, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty, forty minutes uh for this kind of things, User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: and we are now with four people, User Interface: And that's m Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well, imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case, from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case, Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker} Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing, yeah. User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance. Marketing: Yep. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there, just use a flip-board. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: What I really miss also is uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation, you have to Polls like, what do you want, a one, a two, Project Manager: Yeah yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven. Project Manager: Yeah, just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write, also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism. Marketing: Yeah, j ju ju yeah, v voting application. Industrial Designer: Oh. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: Just a little group group decision application. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But uh, {gap} problem is, well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can, but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now. We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: But, well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh, no I w th think two, because this and this, and then you can react uh on it. Marketing: Yeah, okay. Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it, uh just {vocalsound} figure well, everybody knows what I'm knowing, so they'll all just put a two on. Marketing: Yeah, of course. But, uh you can still discuss about it, Industrial Designer: Yeah, but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah. Marketing: but but click it in an application, that's a lot easier to process. Industrial Designer: Yeah okay, the {disfmarker} for processing part. Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit. Yeah. Industrial Designer: But then uh, I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it, that uh isn't that bad idea, actually. Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued, but but still. Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Okay. User Interface: Yo, manager. Marketing: That's it? Project Manager: Uh well, just about, User Interface: When are w Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: because uh Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: When are we going to produce it? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, tomorrow? Uh, the costs are within the budget. Marketing: Celebration. Project Manager: Uh, the project is evaluated. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: But, before we going to celebrate, uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report. I am busy with the end report right now. You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker} Marketing: What is an end report? Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings, what we have decided, a r r a report of this day. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: Uh, that must be made, but I don't know, {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa, we can celebrate now, but the end report is {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, you ha you have ten minutes left, I uh read. User Interface: Oh. Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report. Project Manager: Okay well, that uh that can be done. Maybe we can do it uh together. You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah? Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board. Industrial Designer: Yeah, sure. Project Manager: You can see it. Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version, or {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Pages. {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah, just about. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes. {vocalsound} Seventy five pages. Project Manager: Well, just a moment. End report. Marketing: Okay, Daniel. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe? User Interface: A chairman. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: No no no, Marketing: Hey? Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Oh, okay. Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is. End report. Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually, and so we just have to read it and say yes or no? Project Manager: Well, this not nit it {disfmarker} User Interface: Yes. {vocalsound} Project Manager: read-only. But it's not uh fully finished yet. Marketing: Five minutes for finishing. Project Manager: Um, this is about the functional design, the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah. Marketing: Management Expert, you have to change that. Project Manager: Oh yeah. I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it, I remember I had it here. Marketing: Marketing. User Interface: It's a read-only version. Marketing: Yeah, but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name. User Interface: Oh, okay. Project Manager: Marketing Expert, okay. Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control. Um, it must be uh simple to use, very clear what to do, and at the younger people. So, this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah. Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I understand you, I can talk a little bit Dutch. {vocalsound} Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: No, you have to put {disfmarker} uh, switch channels uh at the top, because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker} Project Manager: Oka okay, okay, I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that. Marketing: Oh nay, a volume changing, second. Project Manager: So, this one's first. Marketing: S switch, yes. Project Manager: You go there and you go there. So, okay. Marketing: Yeah. Okay, go on. Project Manager: Well, maybe I can then do it one two three. Marketing: Yes, very good. User Interface: One two three. Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important, Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Project Manager: that's the word for {gap}. Marketing: The order. Project Manager: Uh, Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design. Uh, well all the things we have uh discussed, uh the energy, which uh turn out to be uh batteries, so that's {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Well, okay, maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost. Project Manager: Yeah, because {disfmarker} yeah. Uh, he here it is still double-curve, the rubber, the flashy, the fruity, the removable. Marketing: Single-curves. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Uh, the buttons Industrial Designer: It's not double. Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm? User Interface: A single-curved. Industrial Designer: Uh, it's not double anymore, eh? Project Manager: Not double anymore. Marketing: No, okay. Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Marketing: Was initial, the plan. The initial plan. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake, it's under the parental control, the touch-screen. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: So, it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh, the added functions. Uh, was it included in the cost? I don't think so, eh? User Interface: Ah, it's very cheap. Project Manager: Uh, it's very cheap, Industrial Designer: It's very cheap. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker} Marketing: No, it's it's not very cheap, but that {disfmarker} Project Manager: It's very necessary. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: no, but it's a development inside corporation. Like, uh w we don't have to buy parental control. Our own people can make that, I think. Project Manager: Yeah, but it still has some {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah, it it has some cost, but {disfmarker} Project Manager: yeah. Okay, but so we can discuss that uh User Interface: He'll do it in his free time. So uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Of directur or directors. Project Manager: What's it what's the company called? I just keep forgetting it. Marketing: Real Reaction. Project Manager: Real Real Reaction. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction, yeah. User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah, the end conclusion. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now. Marketing: Okay. Still the end conclusion. That's all, I think. Project Manager: But, i in here nothing uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Um, the decision to make um the buttons on the top, and the menu on the Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Yes. User Interface: on the bottom. And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah, touch-screen you've mentioned. Project Manager: Yeah, touch-screen I've mentioned. Marketing: Yeah, but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion, I think. User Interface: Okay. Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_. User Interface: Okay, this n yeah. Project Manager: Yeah, okay, well I gonna redesign uh something now. No. Marketing: Yeah. Um {disfmarker} User Interface: Party party {gap}. Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh, five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting. User Interface: Oh, before you change anything maybe you um save it first. Marketing: Save it. User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap} Marketing: Hmm. User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files. Marketing: Yeah, but then you had the same thing. User Interface: Well, eight. And we have uh, {gap} another blank one. Marketing: Example of children remote. User Interface: Did we change anything? {vocalsound} Marketing: Oh wait. Wait. {vocalsound} User Interface: Wow. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo. Marketing: Hmm. That's a pity. User Interface: Don't save it, aye? Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh, that's cool, Tim. Finish meeting now. User Interface: Uh, Project Manager: Well, I'm I'm User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report. User Interface: saved? Industrial Designer: Okay, um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished. {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I am the one who can say that. Yeah? Hereby the meeting is finished. Yeah.

The group mainly talked about the interface design and price setting of the product. Firstly, the user interface designer gave a presentation on the prototype of the product. They provided the prototypes with a lot of details on the appearances and those details were then further discussed by the group. After that, the marketing expert used a seven-point scale to evaluate the prototype according to the past user requirements and trends analysis. They Cleared some misconceptions and reached a consensus on the targeting group and how they could adapt the product better to suit their needs. Then they discussed the price setting of the product and how many functions needed to be retained or removed. As they were trying very hard to remain the price at twelve and a half Euro, they squabbled over the plus and minus of the functions. In the end, they finalized on the costs and planned a celebration for the closing down of the project.

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What was the grading system and its fairness? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Kirsty Williams admitted that the grading system was rigorous and equivalent to A-Level. A UCAS tariff associated with it, and it was the individual ability that was evaluated by the system. About the resit issue, the committee agreed that WJEC and the Qualifications Wales was supposed to regulate this.

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What did Kirsty Williams think of the grading system and its fairness? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Kirsty Williams assured the committee members that the grading system was rigorous and it focused on the students'ability to think independently. When Dawn Bowden challenged the value of the Welsh baccalaureate, Kirsty Williams defended its qualification by demonstrating its tariff for UCAS. He reiterated that the evaluation engaged and expanded the acquisition of knowledge and skills.

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Summarize the discussion of the occurrence of" spoon-feeding" in post-16 education. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Suzy Davies doubted that teachers might not pay enough attention to students'preparation for the baccalaureate and were prone to" spoon-feed" . Kirsty Williams, however, pointed out that this was unlikely to happen, for different from the A-Levels which graded students under the particular syllabus of each subject, the baccalaureate evaluated the personal project and the ability of independent thinking.

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What did the meeting discuss about universities'views on the baccalaureate? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

The committee members disagreed on the universities'attitudes. Hefin David pointed out that according to the response of an online survey, universities such as Cardiff University refused to consider the baccalaureate as a fair substitute for a full A-Level. However, Kirsty Williams claimed that he had a personal commitment to establishing the recognition of the baccalaureate with the universities and almost all Welsh universities recognized the baccalaureate as a qualification. In the end, despite the ambivalent attitudes of universities, the committee had to admit that the admissions practice was decided by universities and the baccalaureate qualification still required refinement.

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Did Kirsty Williams'attitude towards the baccalaureate change after the discussion about universities'views on it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

No, Kirsty Williams still showed confidence in the value of the baccalaureate. Despite the committee members'provision of contradictory evidence, he emphasized the importance of the communication with universities. Kirsty Williams believed that the baccalaureate was a beneficial endeavour for students to undertake before their entrance to the universities, rather than a detriment.

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What did Andrew Clark think of the inconsistency with how admission offers were made concerning the skill challenge certificates? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Andrew Clark thought the inconsistency reflected the different ways that universities treat the skill challenge certificates and the baccalaureate, whose prime focus was individual ability. He added that the universities'attitudes had changed significantly since there was a graded qualification, for even those who did not make the baccalaureate part of their offer considered it a valuable sign that young people were prepared to go to university.

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What did the meeting discuss about the universal adoption? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

The committee members expressed their hope that all schools would be able to organize the baccalaureate, as well as its corresponding training courses. Via their professional programs, there would be more available support for teachers to ensure that they had the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Financial support would be provided as well.

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What did Kirsty Williams think of the funding that went to the consortia? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Kirsty Williams explained to the committee members that the funding would go via consortia to schools. Individual schools had the right to plan independently in which aspects they would spend the money in order to meet the professional learning needs of their staff. Thus, if the schools realized that they had particular needs for the baccalaureate, they would spend the money in the area to seek improvement.

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What did the meeting discuss about the mental and emotional health of young people? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Kirsty Williams admitted that the qualification examinations would bring pressure to students. In fact, as he pointed out, students were prone to form a wrong impression that the more they had achieved, the more successful they would get. Thus, he expressed his desire to guide the students to make the right decisions in terms of their A-Levels and baccalaureate.

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What did the meeting discuss about the effect of the Welsh baccalaureate on wider education provisions? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Janet Finch-Saunders worried about the narrowing of the curriculum at Key Stage 4. Kirsty Williams assured her that the skill challenge certificate actually ensured a broad variety of choices available. He added that the Qualifications Wales had reviewed into the qualification to see whether the teachers were too onerous and if there was any duplication in students'examinations. As for the Welsh learners who chose England institutions instead of Welsh ones, Kirsty Williams explained that the reasons behind might be various and hard to quantify.

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What did Kirsty Williams think of the students who crossed the border of the Welsh and attended institutions that did not offer Welsh-medium provision? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

Kirsty Williams admitted that the crossing and moves were happening and did not deny the evidence as Sian Gwenllian implied. On the contrary, he believed that the reason behind the crossing was complicated and hard to quantify. He exemplified some of them: the eagerness to adjust to the English system, the nature of the offer (the combination of the A-Levels that institution offered), etc. In conclusion, Kirsty Williams believed that no effective evidence could demonstrate that the avoidance of the baccalaureate was the sole driver for the students choices to move to other areas.

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What did Kirsty Williams think of the teachers'training for better skills of delivering the baccalaureate? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

On the topic of teachers'training, Kirsty Williams quoted from the ITE programmes that Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability. The shifts in pedagogical principles were expected accordingly.

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Summarize the whole meeting. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions. Kirsty Williams AM: Of course. Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done--some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification--there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement--and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake. Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised. Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification--I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work. Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you--? Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students'experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues--everything from the environment to their experience in school--and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac--I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said,'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.'Students from a school seven miles away--just seven miles away--said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.'And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience. Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that--. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of'Successful Futures'and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that--. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary? Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of--which year am I in? --year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective. Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been--sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you. Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates-- Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students'work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work--is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers? --but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery. Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between--if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress. Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be. Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools. Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers'voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Sian, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together--everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors'roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about,'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.'So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification. Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification--employers'voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers'roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Sian that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things--everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know--sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one-- Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there. Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from'Welsh bac'and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would--I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous--no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level--because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification--that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac--by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are. Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be--. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills--. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way. Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different--it's not the same as an A-level--so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades--you know, offers--for students that they see that in the same way as well. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities. Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately--it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now--that some students were being told,'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.'I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said,'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my" Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said,'Under no circumstances are you to do that--no, that's not allowed.'This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be-- Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming. Kirsty Williams AM: --denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David. Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said:'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.'Can you reflect on that? Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree. Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University. Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University-- Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University--indeed, all Welsh universities--accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree. Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer--and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge--they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification. Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students. Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand--not via my officials, but first-hand--from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors--last year--with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities. Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail-- Hefin David AM: No, I've said that. Lynne Neagle AM: --we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence. Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received. Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received. Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution--. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics--some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative--that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities-- Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I'm saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth--I would go as far as to say that it's a myth--that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew. Hefin David AM: Okay. Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference. Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don't actually make it part of their offer. So, we're still on a journey--that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn't just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that. Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a'yes'/'no'qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification. Kirsty Williams AM: And that's the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities. Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago. Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don't regard it as a detriment to students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Sian wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us? Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer--Welsh universities. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can't actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales. Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren. Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you've said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it's valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from--I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across--that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had--and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work--and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project--research based--qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work--those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification. Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add--? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities--which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption. Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification. Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation--that's the bit I'm trying to get at. Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course? Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well-- Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it. Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say,'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.'What we're saying is,'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money--I think it was about PS5 million that was going to the consortia in-year--will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly. Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment. Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that. Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call'the middle tier'to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning--so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed. Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification--. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision. Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of,'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'--I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels--through to,'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.'So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around,'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know--and Estyn reflects this--that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4? Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's--. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking--either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there. Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication--students being asked to do things over and over--then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac-- where they can, that is--by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because--. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school--whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college--a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is,'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian, on this. Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions--robust and clear evidence--is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence. Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to-- Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively. Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it:'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.'So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver--ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac. Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already--I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England. Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter. ] Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online--a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it? Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade? Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make. Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one-- Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really. Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance. Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit. Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs-- Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous-- Lynne Neagle AM: --and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent. Hefin David AM: Okay. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.

The meeting was mainly about the Welsh baccalaureate. The committee began with the value of the baccalaureate. There have been young people who entered universities with a baccalaureate qualification. The goal of the committee was to further refine the qualification to balance it with other qualifications that had been recognized by universities and school leaders such as A-Levels. The grading system has been admitted to be rigorous. Students were expected to be evaluated on their individual ability. Although universities showed ambivalent attitudes towards the baccalaureate, its advantage could not be denied. The committee aimed to aid financially in the Welsh schools in organizing the baccalaureate and offering its corresponding courses of high quality.

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Summarize the discussion about the bill to ban physical punishment. Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan thought there was a need for legislation to ban any physical punishment and this bill aimed at protecting children's rights. To ensure the effectiveness of the bill, there was an implementation group with representatives of the police, the crime commissioner, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the social service. Therefore, Julie Morgan was confident about the implementation of legislation. Furthermore, ongoing monitoring had been used to look for the view of the public and ongoing evaluation would come to practice in the next step.

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What did Julie Morgan think about a light smack from a loving parent when talking about the bill to ban physical punishment? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

All forms of physical punishment including smacks from a loving parent should be prohibited by legislation to protect children's rights. There were multiple other ways to help parents bring up children rather than the physical punishment.

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What were measures to make sure the effectiveness of the bill to ban physical punishment? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan pointed to the importance of knowing the effect of legislation. To attain this goal, their team has put forward the ongoing monitoring and surveys in terms of the views of the public. In the following steps, ongoing evaluation would be added for independent individuals.

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Summarize the discussion about relative agencies and workload. Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan answered questions about the bill's impact on other agencies, including the social service, MASHs, CAFCASS. Morgan emphasized the dependence of their work as well as the feasibility of workload changed by the bill.

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What did Julie Morgan and Karen Cornish think about the relationship with other agencies when talking about relative agencies and workload? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan and Karen Cornish thought it was really important for agencies, like social services, the police, MASHs to work together in a consistent and appropriate way. However, the team was not dependent on others'work, considering not every area would get their help.

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What did Julie Morgan respond to the worry of heavy workload for social workers when talking about relative agencies and workload? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan first paid tribute to the work done by social workers. Then, Morgan gave examples from the professionals that there had not been a big rise of referrals, but a slight increase at the beginning which was estimated to fall over time. Moreover, he indicated that a baseline would work in the future to see what exactly happened.

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Summarize the discussion about parenting issues and teachers'preparation. Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

As for the parenting issues, the legislation would go up to 18 years old, providing parenting information of different ages. Also, a mapping exercise would be carried out by officials to clearly identify existing gaps and opportunities to do more. As for school issues, teachers would learn childcare legislation by attending training courses, and the group committee would provide procedures and processes needed to deal with different cases. The discussion then further talked about health and communication problems, including the promotion of the work of health visitors, teachers'responsibilities, and the intentions for mapping exercise in the next step.

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What did Julie Morgan think about the cost of training for teachers when talking about parenting issues and teachers'preparation? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan thought the cost of training would be minimal as teachers had had courses about childcare issues and something about the bill would be absorbed into that without any additional fund.

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What did Julie Morgan think about the communication process through health visitors when talking about parenting issues and teachers'preparation? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

The Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of health visitors were really crucial as providing universal service. Based on the bill, they could promote positive parenting by encouraging parents not to use physical punishment. As for people who did not access the Healthy Child Wales programme and the issues regarding coverage, the group would identify the gaps and relative measures with a mapping exercise.

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Summarize the discussion about resource implications. Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan said the team had done their best preparation to cover all eventualities, such as the awareness-raising campaign, a mapping exercise, and the arrangements of organizations. Later on, Morgan told something about an in-the-round discussion with the Cabinet, where some costings had been decided.

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What did Julie Morgan think about unforeseen costs when talking about resource implications? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

Morgan admitted the existence of unknown cost but emphasized the best preparation done by the team to cover all eventualities. As for public service, the team relied on the information gained from the organizations and Morgan pointed out legislation was put on to the part where public service had been dealing with and for that, there would not be a big impact.

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What did Karen Cornish think about the budget given when talking about resource implications? Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

The amount of money decided on the awareness-raising campaign was PS2. 2 million over six years. With the organ donation bill, it was about PS4 million. Karen felt confident with the amount in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign.

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Summarize the whole meeting. Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important--for us to hear what your views are and what parents'views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a'light smack'or a'loving smack'or a'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a'light smack', what is a'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation--that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says,'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.'I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children--and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents--predominantly all of them, actually--said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that'there is no definitive evidence that" reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries--as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill. Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes--and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass--and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described--and we're very relieved to hear that--why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this. Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but--. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple. Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation. Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything-- Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but-- Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have--. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is--. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish--? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe. Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it. Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should--. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but--. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes-- Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change. Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation-- Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point. Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are. Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question,'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?'That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking-- Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now. Julie Morgan AM: --and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say,'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower? Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished--any sort of range of physical punishment--and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said:'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.'So, I think-- Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing. Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country? Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's--. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome--very welcome. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions--well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising. Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential. Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen. Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said--that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see? Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely. Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they're going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I'm very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter. ] But they do do a hard job, which isn't always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence--many of them have said they don't see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board--I think she came to you--said:'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals. . . I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.'I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others--I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there'd be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we'll be giving to parents--we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don't really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed--and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it's important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we're going to work very closely with social services--obviously, key members of our implementation group--and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don't think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely. Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day--they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had--there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we've got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage? Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it. Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so--? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not--. Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess. Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps--. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down. Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary--CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted-- Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter--that's right. Yes, sorry about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on? Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way--I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation--so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise. Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be-- Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Sian Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective--that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present? Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that'Parenting. Give it time'campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support. Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the'Parenting. Give it time'campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start--yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd--perhaps you are aware of it--Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work. Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years--I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on. Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David. Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Sian Gwenllian was asking about--in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it--obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers. Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that--part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that. Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that? Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate. Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing. Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that. Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that. Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them. Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far--would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill--are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised? Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the-- Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue. Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that-- Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does. Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach--sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group? Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example--probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that. Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents'awareness. Do you think that's the case? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist. Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out? Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this. Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm--. That figure-- Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to--. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage. Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would--. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time. Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Sian. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that--will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher,'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services. Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be--. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done. Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention. Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you--or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those--I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area. Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working-- Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs'Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be--you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint--even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a--we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different--you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence? Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense--that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything-- Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area. Julie Morgan AM: --and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So-- Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn't apply, and they're likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I'm not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I'm literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists. Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven't we? Do you want to say about that, Karen? Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we're talking less than 1 per cent of cases-- Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though? Karen Cornish: --in the last year. It's about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven't got the exact figures with me. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount-- Karen Cornish: So, it's about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It's information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it's really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment. Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure--which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right? Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly. Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far. Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then--? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources. Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs--those unforeseen costs--that might occur? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that--. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload. Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say,'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.'Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact. Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside? Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show--. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that. Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting--did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign--that's PS2. 2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process. Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time. Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with? Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present. Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion. Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect. Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that. Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money--PS2. 5 million over five years [correction: PS2. 2 million over six years]--is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around PS7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but-- Karen Cornish: I think it was about PS4 million-- Lynne Neagle AM: PS4 million-- Karen Cornish: Something like that. Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights. Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture:'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.'In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life,'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.'Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination--these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that. Emma Gammon: Only that we set out--. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children. Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please? Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law? Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed. Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well--the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue? Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87. 5 per cent of voters voted'no'in response to the question,'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?'On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there? Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that. Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary. Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents--those who are naturally charged with raising their children--against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record. Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill-- Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents. Julie Morgan AM: --particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person. Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had. Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Lynne Neagle AM: Sian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups--women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard? Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will--I know you want to move on--but we will write to you about anything more specific. Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales? Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning. Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those? Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17. 42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you.

This meeting mainly talked about the Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment Bill. Julie Morgan, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, and Karen Cornish, deputy director of the Children and Families Division, took charge of answering the relevant questions. To start with, the meeting first discussed the motivation of such legislation and the impact on social service and other agencies. Support for parents and teachers were then discussed, involving their demands and means to address. To continue, the meeting turned to the criminal perspective, discussing the out-of-court disposals, malicious reporting, and non-conviction information. The next step was to talk about costings, followed by the topic of human rights and eventually the awareness raising.

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What did the group discuss about the remote control concept? Project Manager: Okay, welcome everyone to our next meeting. I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting, but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side. Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting, which is hereby opened. Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder, which was quite some typing. Um today we once again have uh three presentations, if I'm right, and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts. And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that. Okay, well Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Um in the same order as last time? Industrial Designer: W sure. User Interface: Mm. Alright. Project Manager: Okay. Well, take it away. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay uh welcome you all. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Components design, um {vocalsound} uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh {disfmarker} elaborate some of the things I did. I I elaborated on the concept. What should be um uh said about uh the components, uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls. Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um {vocalsound} you know from what uh the remote control's formed. Uh first of all, the case, the case, the surrounding of the of the the remote control. {vocalsound} I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about. Marketing: Don't destroy my giraffe. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Giraffe's gone now. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay um the case was is made from rubber, I suppose. There's one of the {disfmarker} because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control Marketing: Drop it. User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option. But uh it's a very expensive material. Uh rubber is, I think, uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control. Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber. Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to {disfmarker} it lets lets itself colour. Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly. Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour, so if you scratch it it's still the same colour, perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged. But it's a very strong material. Um {vocalsound} I h I had an idea single covered uh curved, sorry, single curved. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh so it's t two dimensional. I think it's uh it's best to draw oh User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: green. Marketing: {vocalsound} Bright colour. Fancy colour. Forward. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} New. Blank. Okay. Marketing: You have to go t Industrial Designer: Let's make it uh black. Okay. I thought of an idea like this. Oh {gap} that. {vocalsound} Um delete. Blank. Okay. So it also looks nice when it's on your table. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So you get uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table, but it's c it's stands. Marketing: Oh it's a side view. Industrial Designer: Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table. Um the graphical user interface and the buttons, uh we also thought about that already. Uh I thought about uh the L_C_D_ touch screen, which is uh is easy to clean too. One of the great uh advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some {gap} or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright. Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons. Uh the batteries, uh we also thought about that already, uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh {vocalsound} the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that. Questions, {gap}? User Interface: No. {vocalsound} Marketing: No no no no no. Just looking. Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting, not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use. And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television. Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements, there should be an advanced chip in it User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase, so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side. Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours. That was correct, wasn't it? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image, so yeah, it needs colour, Industrial Designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind, Project Manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: wasn't it? Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan? Project Manager: It must be recognisable. Industrial Designer: Okay okay. Well that's possible of course. User Interface: You can put the R_ and R_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We could make a little R_ and R_ {gap} on the top of the machine. Uh so they are {vocalsound} pretty boring, I suggest, because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours, so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting. And uh will buy uh {vocalsound} them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours. Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that, but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic, hard plastic or uh titanium. And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control, because it yeah it makes sense. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Well that's all about my uh my findings. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. User Interface: I will go next. Marketing: Mm mm mm. Next. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Alright so Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface. Uh how it should look. And uh {vocalsound} uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons, but only an L_C_D_ screen, so I had to uh look on that. And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of. Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition. And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you. And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker. And so that it you say uh good morning, uh coffee maker, and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer. Um perhaps it's useful, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and {gap} calls or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: It's true. User Interface: And perhaps we could uh implement that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like Industrial Designer: Oh my God. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: but I can't draw, so uh don't {vocalsound} make too much of it {vocalsound}. I tried to uh the L_C_D_ screen I tried to sort of to draw {gap}. I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume. I don't know if there is an icon for the program, but Industrial Designer: Not just a P_. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: P_ yeah, just a P_. User Interface: So uh Industrial Designer: . . . {gap} User Interface: and then the buttons above and uh below Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon. Um. Marketing: Where's where's the button for two {gap}? User Interface: I forgot that one. {vocalsound} I thought I forgot something, Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: but uh {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: And uh and uh the numbers, that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth. Industrial Designer: Ah. Marketing: Doesn't matter. User Interface: Um an options button. And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options, I think. It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of uh thing. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: No. User Interface: So could call it settings or something. Industrial Designer: Yep. User Interface: But this is a bit uh how I thought it. And uh the L_C_D_ uh somewhere on the remote. Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should, so that it's better in your hand or something uh. Industrial Designer: Oh okay, User Interface: But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Uh and then uh if you press the op options button, now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, {gap}. User Interface: And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings. And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus. So they want to u use one button and then something happens, and not choose with uh this kind of uh {disfmarker} And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. User Interface: That's an option. And that was my uh finding dinge. Project Manager: Thanks. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now our third Industrial Designer: Go Danny, go Danny. {vocalsound} Project Manager: team member with his presentation. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching. The trends from the past years, what the people like, what the youngsters like, what the elderly people liked about shapes, colours, material and stuff.'Kay. The method I used was {disfmarker} Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours, shapes, material they wanted uh from elderly and young people. So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself. Findings I made. The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy. The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative, okay, like the L_C_D_ screen that's {vocalsound} quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this. And the third thing is it should be easy to use. I think with only one menu, four button, channel, volume, it should also be enough for easy to use. The personal preferences for the young people, they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow, uh strawberry red and stuff. Industrial Designer: Fruity? {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Grass green. Industrial Designer: Fruity. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Like that. The round shapes, and soft material m materials like the rubber. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. Marketing: It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's build it into a sponge. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown, red, deep reds and stuff. They liked square shapes with round edges. And hard materials like wood, um titanium. They those kind of materials they liked. This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours, innovative, all the colours you see, the blue, the red, the white, the yellow, that stuff. And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like Project Manager: Oh y {vocalsound} Marketing: this or something. It's it's a bit like a banana. And the colour should be yellow, or something. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And for the elderly people just plain old. Because we decided to have two kind of remotes, two designs, or was it two colours? User Interface: It was one remote, I think, Marketing: Different colours, yeah. User Interface: different colours. Marketing: We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes. I think like my colleague, you said, is that's e better, or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something, with round squares. Simple but User Interface: {gap} Marketing: easy to use. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} So that's it. Project Manager: So for the older people, a more traditional uh form. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: That is my {disfmarker} Yeah, like the older o older colours I can maybe {disfmarker} User Interface: You could you could uh change the colours, that was also the idea. I don't know which shape you should should take, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Colours th the elderly people {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the uh remote control? Project Manager: the shape of it. User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle. Round but square. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, s Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: round corners, but s but square, yeah. Project Manager: But maybe then both groups won't buy it. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh i i if you do it uh uh square, with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i Do you know what I mean? Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you mean, kind of like a {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: {gap} wait, like {vocalsound} like this {vocalsound} uh a bit. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So it's a bit square, but it's also a bit uh round. Industrial Designer: Kinda like a beer glass. {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: So but then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know what you mean. User Interface: Same sides. {vocalsound} But that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's also easy to to have {vocalsound} to to put in your hand. User Interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped, so that's uh {disfmarker} But perhaps that's a good thing, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so that's easy to use. People know the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Will recognise that's as a remote control. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Look something like that {gap}. Autumn colours like red, brown. Industrial Designer: Uh when I saw your d Oh. Marketing: They liked the wood a lot. Industrial Designer: Huh. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, kinda like old cars, uh {disfmarker} Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance, medieval kind of things. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Swords. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let's put it all together. Marketing: Those kind of {disfmarker} Yeah, those kind of things. So you see the big difference between the young people? Fresh, exciting. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And the old people, old and boring. User Interface: But that's easily to do with the colour, I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {disfmarker} Sorry? User Interface: That's easy to do with the colours, I think. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah we think so too. Industrial Designer: Uh. Marketing: Because otherwise we have to {gap} get different shapes, and colour {gap} way easier than yeah the shapes. In material yeah rubber, rubber is, like I said, young people like more soft materials and spongy ones Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: and the old people like {vocalsound} plain wood. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber, or soft rubber. Or something something between that. User Interface: Yeah think uh {disfmarker} Also in between. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Soft rubber. Marketing: Yeah {gap} soft rubber Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: which you can you can feel in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you {disfmarker} Um. User Interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it, Marketing: Or {disfmarker} User Interface: but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It should shouldn't be {gap}. Marketing: No. Or or wh what's something harder. No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something. That's the bit you can press it in, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: or something harder. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber. This uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, something like this, yeah. User Interface: But it's quite hard, this. Marketing: Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: It's feels kind s spongy. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Spongy. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Something. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think it's rubber. Marketing: No. N n n Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh did you have something about uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Are you going to invite Sponge Bob, maybe he can {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: So we should first decide about shape, I think. Industrial Designer: Ding ding. User Interface: Which uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I think that's the better thing to do. {vocalsound} User Interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it, Marketing: {gap} User Interface: and can decide uh. Industrial Designer: Um I also s uh can't help but notice {vocalsound} that you uh used an {disfmarker} you had a remote control {gap} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was uh rather small. Um. Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Yeah Marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like {disfmarker} User Interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit Industrial Designer: . . . This was your size, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger. Marketing: Yeah three quarter of the of the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, three quarters. So uh so you don't have to put your {disfmarker} {vocalsound} oh. Marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh new, blank. So uh when you get {vocalsound} this uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} User Interface: Ooh {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh kinda like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or should it be larger? Marketing: Larger I think. Industrial Designer: Larger? Because you want to put your hands {disfmarker} User Interface: But if you pu Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen. Industrial Designer: You want Marketing: becau because you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Perhaps that's best. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah okay, true, true, true true. Industrial Designer: Your thumb here. User Interface: {vocalsound} But not on the screen because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: that's uh that's an idea. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Looks a bit like a Game Boy now. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself, uh you'll {vocalsound} you'll always get some {disfmarker} User Interface: You always touch it, Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Industrial Designer: Going to be very greasy and stuff. Marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One to zero, the two digit, {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah you don't want it too small. How yeah how large {disfmarker} Marketing: You have to you have to {disfmarker} Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah they have thick fingers {gap}. But if you wanna make it in international, Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands Marketing: Yeah true, Industrial Designer: and we got these large {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: but {disfmarker} Yeah, we have we have the zoom option, right? Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course, yeah. You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. And we won't include a a pen, or something to point, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: hey, we we want to do it with our fingers, Marketing: No. Project Manager: right? Industrial Designer: Your fingers, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Y you could include a pen Industrial Designer: You don't want uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use {disfmarker} Marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen. Project Manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that Marketing: Yeah {gap} the fingers, yeah. User Interface: Yeah o yeah {gap}, if they think it's handy to use a pen. Project Manager: and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen. I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this, or something. Project Manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers, huh. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} You can do {gap} whatever uh any uh cloth. Marketing: Yeah but that that can be {gap} with plain soft tissue. Yeah, Project Manager: Okay well Marketing: you can buy those at {disfmarker} Project Manager: maybe, if I can interrupt you, maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision. Industrial Designer: Sure. Project Manager: So we can discuss these points. {gap} those points um energy question mark. How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how {disfmarker} are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put {gap} in it. Uh chip on print and case. Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here, but I hope you have ideas about them. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The docking station. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. So that's the the the first point. Marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries Project Manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting. Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Just like with the telephone. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead Industrial Designer: I kinda like your {disfmarker} Marketing: then you can re you can uh change them. Industrial Designer: Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice? Mouse. Computer mouse. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah like those. Industrial Designer: Kinda like those kind of batteries. User Interface: {vocalsound} but it should be th I think normal batteries, Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound} User Interface: not not like two or two uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, normal plain you {disfmarker} No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Simple rechargeable uh batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Um what was with the chip on print? Industrial Designer: The chip on print? Um {disfmarker} Uh you gotta f Yeah. I think so. Chip on print with a with a {vocalsound} simple uh a sim not a simple but a {disfmarker} Marketing: Print plate. Industrial Designer: We also discussed that. Didn't we? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen? You still have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Uh {gap} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah. You always have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Beg your pardon? Marketing: You always have a print plate, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, of course, yeah. Marketing: right? Always, so {disfmarker} I dunno what w what we have to decide about that. Project Manager: Yeah well it's a good question. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It just was in there Industrial Designer: {gap} Well uh Project Manager: and I didn't have any information about it, Industrial Designer: chip on print, I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got, uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button. Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen, with no uh with not {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the buttons are not always on the same place, Marketing: Yeah, okay. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: for example if you enlarge a button, or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen, uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: When you got a regular button, th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: so that that's not of any discussion, I think. Project Manager: Well you need some kind of C_P_U_, I guess. Industrial Designer: {gap} I suppose so. Marketing: Mm, I don't I dunno I don't think that's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_. Industrial Designer: Yeah because it has to uh b Marketing: Yeah, it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen. I think they don't need that big of C_P_U_. Industrial Designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume. Marketing: Yeah, okay, true true. True. Industrial Designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_ User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the L_C_D_ screen. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And the case, yeah we already discussed the case, User Interface: It's rubber. Industrial Designer: we wanted to make it from rubber User Interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this? Industrial Designer: and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Or softer rubber or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh hard rubber I think. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's the easy to ha uh to to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: It bounces back from the floor where you {vocalsound} throw it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah sure, look {vocalsound}. Marketing: We have different colours. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah this in different colours? Industrial Designer: D Marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes? No I don't think, I think it's more round than square. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah it's a bit. But I think it should be a bit longer, perhaps. Marketing: So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people. Project Manager: Yeah. But that's what we want, {gap}. User Interface: Yeah. I think so too. Marketing: Yeah, that's our target. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's our main target. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Lower than forty years, I think Industrial Designer: {gap} Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve? Marketing: it was. Industrial Designer: So i Marketing: Oh yeah that that {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I thought that was a quite good User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off, of course. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah yeah you have a fancy design, then, right away. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Because it Marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: you don't have to put it {disfmarker} get it in your hand, you can put it next to you Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: and then dive it in User Interface: Yeah, that's a good idea. Marketing: and {gap}. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's a lot easier. User Interface: Yeah, alright. Industrial Designer: So, so Marketing: So {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: you got uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Did you write that down? Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured {vocalsound} remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You can't you You can't oh, you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, you can uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah but I wrote it down. {vocalsound} User Interface: It's pretty easy but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} Marketing: And load it on the the user the server. Project Manager: What about the user interface, there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that {gap}. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: You you showed your drawing. User Interface: I had what I just uh I should {gap} again. I miss a few buttons, but. Well. At least uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what we should also have on, I just remembered, um a menu to go back through the first uh {gap} if if you touch options, you can't go back to this uh right away now. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to go back. Yeah uh uh. User Interface: This {gap} {disfmarker} Marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal? User Interface: I don't know. Marketing: With the minus and the plus. User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker} Marketing: I think it's easier than {disfmarker} User Interface: I don't know. I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but I don't know what they think. Industrial Designer: Sorry? {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical? Marketing: For sound and channel. User Interface: Th Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen. If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter. If you make it uh in a rectangle {disfmarker} User Interface: Right well if we make it like this, I think if you Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I so it's it's it's it's {disfmarker} User Interface: put it like this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Square. {gap} Marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like {disfmarker} Oh a button uh minus here, plus over here. A minus here, plus over here. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh, okay. Marketing: And on here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The other buttons and on here {vocalsound} the top. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The options and then you have something like uh the P_ over here, User Interface: But I think I wou Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: and the sound. User Interface: I think that's a matter of what you're used to. Marketing: Something uh {disfmarker} User Interface: I think I would put a plus and a min uh here. And then the P_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle. Industrial Designer: Uh. {gap} Marketing: Something like {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Sh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Take your time. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Plus minus plus uh {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah Marketing: minus. User Interface: but I think when you are holding it, you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus. Marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb. User Interface: Yeah but I think {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know. {vocalsound} Perhaps I have some examples. Industrial Designer: W User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then. {vocalsound} Marketing: Who's the usability engineering? User Interface: That's me. Marketing: She is. {gap} User Interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. User Interface: The {disfmarker}'Cause they can use that better. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Consistency. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Oh {gap} {disfmarker} I have that those s numbers. User Interface: I {disfmarker} Here is our {disfmarker} here are uh Marketing: Or a good watch. User Interface: I don't really know. Marketing: B Project Manager: Everybody's searching in his data. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Channel selection. Per hour one hundred and sixty eight. Volume selection four times an hour User Interface: Yeah but {gap} {disfmarker} But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. So not how much {disfmarker} n not how often it's used, but {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} User Interface: W what's what's usual or normal. Marketing: Yeah, that depends on on on the remote. User Interface: Yes I'm looking here. But here's it's below, Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: here also, and now here's here's next to each other. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: I think it's {gap} it's a {disfmarker} Marketing: I think {gap} because I have two televisions at home. One is horizontal, one is vertical, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah it does it doesn't really matter, Marketing: so it depends. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Depends. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other, because you go higher and down. Marketing: Yeah, lower. User Interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other, because you would go further and back. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: That's how it's is usually {gap} when I look here Marketing: True. User Interface: that's what I see. Industrial Designer: Okay, um. Let's cut to the chase. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got to change. Project Manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons User Interface: I don't know. Project Manager: just the Marketing: Yeah is it is user interface. Project Manager: concepts. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Component. User Interface: This concept is in the actual design, but you should know where you would place a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Okay, well le Yeah. Interface, yeah. User Interface: And the speech uh shall we implement that? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology, huh? Industrial Designer: Technologies, uh. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that, where are you, but then it says I'm here. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. But then you should also find a place {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Makes it possible to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something. You can talk into the corner. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, a microphone, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Not even necessary, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: because a lotta {disfmarker} you can make a very sensitive microphone, so it makes it possible to uh {vocalsound} just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote. Project Manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh User Interface: Yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, that's also {gap}. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: over there. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: So, in the middle or something. Industrial Designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: because yeah, it doesn't matter where the microphone is. User Interface: {gap} but you should uh decide where you want to put it. Industrial Designer: Ah okay, sure, okay, User Interface: Right? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: well tha Marketing: Um I think where it isn't seen Industrial Designer: Underneath? {gap} Indeed. It shouldn't be uh very uh visible. Marketing: the most. User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company. {vocalsound} Marketing: Inside. Project Manager: Yeah. Well Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, why no Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out Marketing: I i between the round of the R_. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote, huh, the the speech control. User Interface: Yeah. So where do you want to put it? Marketing: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah actually it does {vocalsound} because it you can you can find it better if you use it. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah User Interface: It's a way for you to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: So it makes more sense just'cause other remotes don't have that. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: But are we talking about the button, or about the microphone? User Interface: About a microphone, Project Manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing, User Interface: there is no button. Project Manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Where isn't {disfmarker} i it isn't most in sight. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well put it there. I don't mind. {vocalsound} Marketing: I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That doesn't doesn't really matter. Marketing: No. Actually doesn't. Industrial Designer: Okay. So? User Interface: Alright. Any more uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So well uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Interface type. Project Manager: type, supplements, anything. Yeah, well we already s discussed that, huh, the the L_C_D_ Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ yeah, Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap} I think {disfmarker} I thought the, like you said, like scroll {vocalsound} next to the remote isn't that handy. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah. {gap} Marketing: I think it's better to just {gap} up what you'd like to do on the screen. If you want to go back you have to back button go back, Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu. Industrial Designer: Hey, User Interface: {vocalsound} Um yeah. Yeah Industrial Designer: {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh Industrial Designer: Use the scroll. Yeah I think so too. Marketing: Yeah? You do like it? Industrial Designer: So why not, on on side. User Interface: Or at least {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll, but the menu {gap} they like most, and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Fast, yeah. So if you've got a settings, if you {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster. Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options, Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then {disfmarker} User Interface: But you have {disfmarker} it's f uh Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options, User Interface: we have five or four or something. Industrial Designer: because when you use {disfmarker} Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television, you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen. Marketing: Y Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, true. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or. Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use. Marketing: {gap} Okay, no problem. Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: which you can touch User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: It's also different. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Well there's our five minutes uh warning. Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components, everyone? Marketing: Um. No, colours are clear, Project Manager: Everybody think they can can Marketing: shape is clear, material is clear. Industrial Designer: Okay, what's the standard colour? Project Manager: work for that? Marketing: And a standard, Project Manager: Is there a standard colour? Marketing: yeah we don't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I I Marketing: no we have different colour. Industrial Designer: You got you got different colours, Marketing: How many colours are we going to {disfmarker} User Interface: You should you should have a black one Industrial Designer: but you should have a standard colour. User Interface: because uh I think black is standard. Marketing: Black. Yeah, black I think is is the standard. Industrial Designer: Black? With the with the yellow uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: But if you want to be different, then uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Dark grey, something like this this colour or something. Industrial Designer: Just a regular uh remote colour. Marketing: Yeah like like yeah. Industrial Designer: And then have uh different covers uh to use. Marketing: Or or silver. I think it's better to have silver nowadays. User Interface: Silver. Industrial Designer: Silver, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: I think you see more silver than black. Industrial Designer: You see a lot of t uh silver televisions. Project Manager: But still silver and black are {disfmarker} well User Interface: Silver rubber. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah the the silver black are our main colours. Yeah. Project Manager: silver is new but also traditional, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: I think we have silver, black and between those {vocalsound} is like I dunno s five colours between them or something. Project Manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing, I mean it Industrial Designer: Yeah y I think it's better to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow, we have. Project Manager: could be ugly, but it's definitely fancy. User Interface: {vocalsound} But Marketing: R red. Industrial Designer: Yeah th yeah. That's right. User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: But if you use uh silver, uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy. Marketing: Green, wood, brown. Yeah. True. Industrial Designer: When you use titanium, silver is fancy, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but when you use silver rubber, it isn't fancy. Silver has to shine, and rubber doesn't shine. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You understand? {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I understand. Project Manager: Yeah I would think about colours like uh red, yellow, green, blue, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah o of course. Project Manager: just {disfmarker} Marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours, like red and brown, {gap} dark red and brown. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just all kind of colour. Industrial Designer: Fruity. Fruity loops. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Maroon. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one, or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Who's pinging? User Interface: Is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: You are pingin Marketing: No {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I thought we User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You ping. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh that wraps it up? Everybody knows uh what to do? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Well I wrote it down here. I wrote it down here what to do um. User Interface: Well I don't know what to do, Industrial Designer: Well not what to do. Not what to do. User Interface: but. {vocalsound} Project Manager: The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes. Um here are the individual actions, Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board, User Interface: Ooh. {vocalsound} Right. Marketing: S Project Manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: tough. We'll be available. User Interface: But do we have to {disfmarker} We'll work together, but do we have to stay here, or do we {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: I don't know. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Thin I think we should work {vocalsound}. Project Manager: Okay well that was what I had to say, uh, User Interface: Yeah I think {gap}. Project Manager: final thoughts from anyone, or? User Interface: No. Project Manager: We're finished. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Okay, well thank you very much. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Thank you very much. Marketing: Finished. User Interface: So we have to keep talking English now? {vocalsound}

Industrial Designer expressed a desire to make remote control from rubber and LCD touch screen. Industrial Designer designed a remote control chargeable with a mount station instead of plugging it. In addition, User Interface emphasized that the remote control should not only have an LCD screen, but also some necessary buttons. Marketing introduced watch trends about colours, shapes and material of remote control from the past years. Based on the analysis of marketing, the group did a discussion about target people and made initial design decisions.

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Summarize User Interface's opinion about remote control design? Project Manager: Okay, welcome everyone to our next meeting. I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting, but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side. Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting, which is hereby opened. Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder, which was quite some typing. Um today we once again have uh three presentations, if I'm right, and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts. And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that. Okay, well Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Um in the same order as last time? Industrial Designer: W sure. User Interface: Mm. Alright. Project Manager: Okay. Well, take it away. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay uh welcome you all. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Components design, um {vocalsound} uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh {disfmarker} elaborate some of the things I did. I I elaborated on the concept. What should be um uh said about uh the components, uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls. Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um {vocalsound} you know from what uh the remote control's formed. Uh first of all, the case, the case, the surrounding of the of the the remote control. {vocalsound} I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about. Marketing: Don't destroy my giraffe. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Giraffe's gone now. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay um the case was is made from rubber, I suppose. There's one of the {disfmarker} because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control Marketing: Drop it. User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option. But uh it's a very expensive material. Uh rubber is, I think, uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control. Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber. Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to {disfmarker} it lets lets itself colour. Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly. Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour, so if you scratch it it's still the same colour, perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged. But it's a very strong material. Um {vocalsound} I h I had an idea single covered uh curved, sorry, single curved. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh so it's t two dimensional. I think it's uh it's best to draw oh User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: green. Marketing: {vocalsound} Bright colour. Fancy colour. Forward. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} New. Blank. Okay. Marketing: You have to go t Industrial Designer: Let's make it uh black. Okay. I thought of an idea like this. Oh {gap} that. {vocalsound} Um delete. Blank. Okay. So it also looks nice when it's on your table. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So you get uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table, but it's c it's stands. Marketing: Oh it's a side view. Industrial Designer: Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table. Um the graphical user interface and the buttons, uh we also thought about that already. Uh I thought about uh the L_C_D_ touch screen, which is uh is easy to clean too. One of the great uh advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some {gap} or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright. Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons. Uh the batteries, uh we also thought about that already, uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh {vocalsound} the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that. Questions, {gap}? User Interface: No. {vocalsound} Marketing: No no no no no. Just looking. Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting, not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use. And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television. Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements, there should be an advanced chip in it User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase, so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side. Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours. That was correct, wasn't it? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image, so yeah, it needs colour, Industrial Designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind, Project Manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: wasn't it? Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan? Project Manager: It must be recognisable. Industrial Designer: Okay okay. Well that's possible of course. User Interface: You can put the R_ and R_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We could make a little R_ and R_ {gap} on the top of the machine. Uh so they are {vocalsound} pretty boring, I suggest, because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours, so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting. And uh will buy uh {vocalsound} them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours. Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that, but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic, hard plastic or uh titanium. And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control, because it yeah it makes sense. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Well that's all about my uh my findings. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. User Interface: I will go next. Marketing: Mm mm mm. Next. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Alright so Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface. Uh how it should look. And uh {vocalsound} uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons, but only an L_C_D_ screen, so I had to uh look on that. And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of. Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition. And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you. And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker. And so that it you say uh good morning, uh coffee maker, and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer. Um perhaps it's useful, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and {gap} calls or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: It's true. User Interface: And perhaps we could uh implement that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like Industrial Designer: Oh my God. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: but I can't draw, so uh don't {vocalsound} make too much of it {vocalsound}. I tried to uh the L_C_D_ screen I tried to sort of to draw {gap}. I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume. I don't know if there is an icon for the program, but Industrial Designer: Not just a P_. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: P_ yeah, just a P_. User Interface: So uh Industrial Designer: . . . {gap} User Interface: and then the buttons above and uh below Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon. Um. Marketing: Where's where's the button for two {gap}? User Interface: I forgot that one. {vocalsound} I thought I forgot something, Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: but uh {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: And uh and uh the numbers, that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth. Industrial Designer: Ah. Marketing: Doesn't matter. User Interface: Um an options button. And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options, I think. It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of uh thing. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: No. User Interface: So could call it settings or something. Industrial Designer: Yep. User Interface: But this is a bit uh how I thought it. And uh the L_C_D_ uh somewhere on the remote. Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should, so that it's better in your hand or something uh. Industrial Designer: Oh okay, User Interface: But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Uh and then uh if you press the op options button, now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, {gap}. User Interface: And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings. And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus. So they want to u use one button and then something happens, and not choose with uh this kind of uh {disfmarker} And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. User Interface: That's an option. And that was my uh finding dinge. Project Manager: Thanks. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now our third Industrial Designer: Go Danny, go Danny. {vocalsound} Project Manager: team member with his presentation. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching. The trends from the past years, what the people like, what the youngsters like, what the elderly people liked about shapes, colours, material and stuff.'Kay. The method I used was {disfmarker} Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours, shapes, material they wanted uh from elderly and young people. So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself. Findings I made. The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy. The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative, okay, like the L_C_D_ screen that's {vocalsound} quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this. And the third thing is it should be easy to use. I think with only one menu, four button, channel, volume, it should also be enough for easy to use. The personal preferences for the young people, they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow, uh strawberry red and stuff. Industrial Designer: Fruity? {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Grass green. Industrial Designer: Fruity. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Like that. The round shapes, and soft material m materials like the rubber. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. Marketing: It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's build it into a sponge. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown, red, deep reds and stuff. They liked square shapes with round edges. And hard materials like wood, um titanium. They those kind of materials they liked. This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours, innovative, all the colours you see, the blue, the red, the white, the yellow, that stuff. And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like Project Manager: Oh y {vocalsound} Marketing: this or something. It's it's a bit like a banana. And the colour should be yellow, or something. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And for the elderly people just plain old. Because we decided to have two kind of remotes, two designs, or was it two colours? User Interface: It was one remote, I think, Marketing: Different colours, yeah. User Interface: different colours. Marketing: We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes. I think like my colleague, you said, is that's e better, or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something, with round squares. Simple but User Interface: {gap} Marketing: easy to use. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} So that's it. Project Manager: So for the older people, a more traditional uh form. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: That is my {disfmarker} Yeah, like the older o older colours I can maybe {disfmarker} User Interface: You could you could uh change the colours, that was also the idea. I don't know which shape you should should take, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Colours th the elderly people {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the uh remote control? Project Manager: the shape of it. User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle. Round but square. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, s Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: round corners, but s but square, yeah. Project Manager: But maybe then both groups won't buy it. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh i i if you do it uh uh square, with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i Do you know what I mean? Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you mean, kind of like a {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: {gap} wait, like {vocalsound} like this {vocalsound} uh a bit. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So it's a bit square, but it's also a bit uh round. Industrial Designer: Kinda like a beer glass. {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: So but then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know what you mean. User Interface: Same sides. {vocalsound} But that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's also easy to to have {vocalsound} to to put in your hand. User Interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped, so that's uh {disfmarker} But perhaps that's a good thing, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so that's easy to use. People know the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Will recognise that's as a remote control. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Look something like that {gap}. Autumn colours like red, brown. Industrial Designer: Uh when I saw your d Oh. Marketing: They liked the wood a lot. Industrial Designer: Huh. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, kinda like old cars, uh {disfmarker} Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance, medieval kind of things. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Swords. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let's put it all together. Marketing: Those kind of {disfmarker} Yeah, those kind of things. So you see the big difference between the young people? Fresh, exciting. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And the old people, old and boring. User Interface: But that's easily to do with the colour, I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {disfmarker} Sorry? User Interface: That's easy to do with the colours, I think. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah we think so too. Industrial Designer: Uh. Marketing: Because otherwise we have to {gap} get different shapes, and colour {gap} way easier than yeah the shapes. In material yeah rubber, rubber is, like I said, young people like more soft materials and spongy ones Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: and the old people like {vocalsound} plain wood. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber, or soft rubber. Or something something between that. User Interface: Yeah think uh {disfmarker} Also in between. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Soft rubber. Marketing: Yeah {gap} soft rubber Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: which you can you can feel in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you {disfmarker} Um. User Interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it, Marketing: Or {disfmarker} User Interface: but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It should shouldn't be {gap}. Marketing: No. Or or wh what's something harder. No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something. That's the bit you can press it in, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: or something harder. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber. This uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, something like this, yeah. User Interface: But it's quite hard, this. Marketing: Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: It's feels kind s spongy. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Spongy. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Something. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think it's rubber. Marketing: No. N n n Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh did you have something about uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Are you going to invite Sponge Bob, maybe he can {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: So we should first decide about shape, I think. Industrial Designer: Ding ding. User Interface: Which uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I think that's the better thing to do. {vocalsound} User Interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it, Marketing: {gap} User Interface: and can decide uh. Industrial Designer: Um I also s uh can't help but notice {vocalsound} that you uh used an {disfmarker} you had a remote control {gap} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was uh rather small. Um. Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Yeah Marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like {disfmarker} User Interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit Industrial Designer: . . . This was your size, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger. Marketing: Yeah three quarter of the of the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, three quarters. So uh so you don't have to put your {disfmarker} {vocalsound} oh. Marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh new, blank. So uh when you get {vocalsound} this uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} User Interface: Ooh {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh kinda like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or should it be larger? Marketing: Larger I think. Industrial Designer: Larger? Because you want to put your hands {disfmarker} User Interface: But if you pu Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen. Industrial Designer: You want Marketing: becau because you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Perhaps that's best. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah okay, true, true, true true. Industrial Designer: Your thumb here. User Interface: {vocalsound} But not on the screen because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: that's uh that's an idea. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Looks a bit like a Game Boy now. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself, uh you'll {vocalsound} you'll always get some {disfmarker} User Interface: You always touch it, Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Industrial Designer: Going to be very greasy and stuff. Marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One to zero, the two digit, {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah you don't want it too small. How yeah how large {disfmarker} Marketing: You have to you have to {disfmarker} Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah they have thick fingers {gap}. But if you wanna make it in international, Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands Marketing: Yeah true, Industrial Designer: and we got these large {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: but {disfmarker} Yeah, we have we have the zoom option, right? Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course, yeah. You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. And we won't include a a pen, or something to point, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: hey, we we want to do it with our fingers, Marketing: No. Project Manager: right? Industrial Designer: Your fingers, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Y you could include a pen Industrial Designer: You don't want uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use {disfmarker} Marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen. Project Manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that Marketing: Yeah {gap} the fingers, yeah. User Interface: Yeah o yeah {gap}, if they think it's handy to use a pen. Project Manager: and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen. I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this, or something. Project Manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers, huh. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} You can do {gap} whatever uh any uh cloth. Marketing: Yeah but that that can be {gap} with plain soft tissue. Yeah, Project Manager: Okay well Marketing: you can buy those at {disfmarker} Project Manager: maybe, if I can interrupt you, maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision. Industrial Designer: Sure. Project Manager: So we can discuss these points. {gap} those points um energy question mark. How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how {disfmarker} are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put {gap} in it. Uh chip on print and case. Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here, but I hope you have ideas about them. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The docking station. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. So that's the the the first point. Marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries Project Manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting. Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Just like with the telephone. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead Industrial Designer: I kinda like your {disfmarker} Marketing: then you can re you can uh change them. Industrial Designer: Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice? Mouse. Computer mouse. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah like those. Industrial Designer: Kinda like those kind of batteries. User Interface: {vocalsound} but it should be th I think normal batteries, Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound} User Interface: not not like two or two uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, normal plain you {disfmarker} No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Simple rechargeable uh batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Um what was with the chip on print? Industrial Designer: The chip on print? Um {disfmarker} Uh you gotta f Yeah. I think so. Chip on print with a with a {vocalsound} simple uh a sim not a simple but a {disfmarker} Marketing: Print plate. Industrial Designer: We also discussed that. Didn't we? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen? You still have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Uh {gap} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah. You always have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Beg your pardon? Marketing: You always have a print plate, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, of course, yeah. Marketing: right? Always, so {disfmarker} I dunno what w what we have to decide about that. Project Manager: Yeah well it's a good question. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It just was in there Industrial Designer: {gap} Well uh Project Manager: and I didn't have any information about it, Industrial Designer: chip on print, I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got, uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button. Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen, with no uh with not {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the buttons are not always on the same place, Marketing: Yeah, okay. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: for example if you enlarge a button, or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen, uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: When you got a regular button, th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: so that that's not of any discussion, I think. Project Manager: Well you need some kind of C_P_U_, I guess. Industrial Designer: {gap} I suppose so. Marketing: Mm, I don't I dunno I don't think that's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_. Industrial Designer: Yeah because it has to uh b Marketing: Yeah, it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen. I think they don't need that big of C_P_U_. Industrial Designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume. Marketing: Yeah, okay, true true. True. Industrial Designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_ User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the L_C_D_ screen. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And the case, yeah we already discussed the case, User Interface: It's rubber. Industrial Designer: we wanted to make it from rubber User Interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this? Industrial Designer: and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Or softer rubber or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh hard rubber I think. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's the easy to ha uh to to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: It bounces back from the floor where you {vocalsound} throw it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah sure, look {vocalsound}. Marketing: We have different colours. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah this in different colours? Industrial Designer: D Marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes? No I don't think, I think it's more round than square. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah it's a bit. But I think it should be a bit longer, perhaps. Marketing: So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people. Project Manager: Yeah. But that's what we want, {gap}. User Interface: Yeah. I think so too. Marketing: Yeah, that's our target. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's our main target. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Lower than forty years, I think Industrial Designer: {gap} Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve? Marketing: it was. Industrial Designer: So i Marketing: Oh yeah that that {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I thought that was a quite good User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off, of course. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah yeah you have a fancy design, then, right away. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Because it Marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: you don't have to put it {disfmarker} get it in your hand, you can put it next to you Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: and then dive it in User Interface: Yeah, that's a good idea. Marketing: and {gap}. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's a lot easier. User Interface: Yeah, alright. Industrial Designer: So, so Marketing: So {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: you got uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Did you write that down? Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured {vocalsound} remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You can't you You can't oh, you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, you can uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah but I wrote it down. {vocalsound} User Interface: It's pretty easy but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} Marketing: And load it on the the user the server. Project Manager: What about the user interface, there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that {gap}. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: You you showed your drawing. User Interface: I had what I just uh I should {gap} again. I miss a few buttons, but. Well. At least uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what we should also have on, I just remembered, um a menu to go back through the first uh {gap} if if you touch options, you can't go back to this uh right away now. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to go back. Yeah uh uh. User Interface: This {gap} {disfmarker} Marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal? User Interface: I don't know. Marketing: With the minus and the plus. User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker} Marketing: I think it's easier than {disfmarker} User Interface: I don't know. I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but I don't know what they think. Industrial Designer: Sorry? {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical? Marketing: For sound and channel. User Interface: Th Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen. If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter. If you make it uh in a rectangle {disfmarker} User Interface: Right well if we make it like this, I think if you Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I so it's it's it's it's {disfmarker} User Interface: put it like this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Square. {gap} Marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like {disfmarker} Oh a button uh minus here, plus over here. A minus here, plus over here. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh, okay. Marketing: And on here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The other buttons and on here {vocalsound} the top. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The options and then you have something like uh the P_ over here, User Interface: But I think I wou Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: and the sound. User Interface: I think that's a matter of what you're used to. Marketing: Something uh {disfmarker} User Interface: I think I would put a plus and a min uh here. And then the P_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle. Industrial Designer: Uh. {gap} Marketing: Something like {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Sh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Take your time. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Plus minus plus uh {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah Marketing: minus. User Interface: but I think when you are holding it, you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus. Marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb. User Interface: Yeah but I think {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know. {vocalsound} Perhaps I have some examples. Industrial Designer: W User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then. {vocalsound} Marketing: Who's the usability engineering? User Interface: That's me. Marketing: She is. {gap} User Interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. User Interface: The {disfmarker}'Cause they can use that better. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Consistency. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Oh {gap} {disfmarker} I have that those s numbers. User Interface: I {disfmarker} Here is our {disfmarker} here are uh Marketing: Or a good watch. User Interface: I don't really know. Marketing: B Project Manager: Everybody's searching in his data. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Channel selection. Per hour one hundred and sixty eight. Volume selection four times an hour User Interface: Yeah but {gap} {disfmarker} But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. So not how much {disfmarker} n not how often it's used, but {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} User Interface: W what's what's usual or normal. Marketing: Yeah, that depends on on on the remote. User Interface: Yes I'm looking here. But here's it's below, Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: here also, and now here's here's next to each other. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: I think it's {gap} it's a {disfmarker} Marketing: I think {gap} because I have two televisions at home. One is horizontal, one is vertical, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah it does it doesn't really matter, Marketing: so it depends. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Depends. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other, because you go higher and down. Marketing: Yeah, lower. User Interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other, because you would go further and back. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: That's how it's is usually {gap} when I look here Marketing: True. User Interface: that's what I see. Industrial Designer: Okay, um. Let's cut to the chase. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got to change. Project Manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons User Interface: I don't know. Project Manager: just the Marketing: Yeah is it is user interface. Project Manager: concepts. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Component. User Interface: This concept is in the actual design, but you should know where you would place a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Okay, well le Yeah. Interface, yeah. User Interface: And the speech uh shall we implement that? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology, huh? Industrial Designer: Technologies, uh. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that, where are you, but then it says I'm here. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. But then you should also find a place {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Makes it possible to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something. You can talk into the corner. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, a microphone, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Not even necessary, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: because a lotta {disfmarker} you can make a very sensitive microphone, so it makes it possible to uh {vocalsound} just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote. Project Manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh User Interface: Yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, that's also {gap}. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: over there. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: So, in the middle or something. Industrial Designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: because yeah, it doesn't matter where the microphone is. User Interface: {gap} but you should uh decide where you want to put it. Industrial Designer: Ah okay, sure, okay, User Interface: Right? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: well tha Marketing: Um I think where it isn't seen Industrial Designer: Underneath? {gap} Indeed. It shouldn't be uh very uh visible. Marketing: the most. User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company. {vocalsound} Marketing: Inside. Project Manager: Yeah. Well Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, why no Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out Marketing: I i between the round of the R_. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote, huh, the the speech control. User Interface: Yeah. So where do you want to put it? Marketing: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah actually it does {vocalsound} because it you can you can find it better if you use it. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah User Interface: It's a way for you to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: So it makes more sense just'cause other remotes don't have that. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: But are we talking about the button, or about the microphone? User Interface: About a microphone, Project Manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing, User Interface: there is no button. Project Manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Where isn't {disfmarker} i it isn't most in sight. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well put it there. I don't mind. {vocalsound} Marketing: I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That doesn't doesn't really matter. Marketing: No. Actually doesn't. Industrial Designer: Okay. So? User Interface: Alright. Any more uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So well uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Interface type. Project Manager: type, supplements, anything. Yeah, well we already s discussed that, huh, the the L_C_D_ Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ yeah, Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap} I think {disfmarker} I thought the, like you said, like scroll {vocalsound} next to the remote isn't that handy. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah. {gap} Marketing: I think it's better to just {gap} up what you'd like to do on the screen. If you want to go back you have to back button go back, Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu. Industrial Designer: Hey, User Interface: {vocalsound} Um yeah. Yeah Industrial Designer: {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh Industrial Designer: Use the scroll. Yeah I think so too. Marketing: Yeah? You do like it? Industrial Designer: So why not, on on side. User Interface: Or at least {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll, but the menu {gap} they like most, and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Fast, yeah. So if you've got a settings, if you {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster. Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options, Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then {disfmarker} User Interface: But you have {disfmarker} it's f uh Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options, User Interface: we have five or four or something. Industrial Designer: because when you use {disfmarker} Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television, you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen. Marketing: Y Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, true. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or. Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use. Marketing: {gap} Okay, no problem. Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: which you can touch User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: It's also different. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Well there's our five minutes uh warning. Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components, everyone? Marketing: Um. No, colours are clear, Project Manager: Everybody think they can can Marketing: shape is clear, material is clear. Industrial Designer: Okay, what's the standard colour? Project Manager: work for that? Marketing: And a standard, Project Manager: Is there a standard colour? Marketing: yeah we don't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I I Marketing: no we have different colour. Industrial Designer: You got you got different colours, Marketing: How many colours are we going to {disfmarker} User Interface: You should you should have a black one Industrial Designer: but you should have a standard colour. User Interface: because uh I think black is standard. Marketing: Black. Yeah, black I think is is the standard. Industrial Designer: Black? With the with the yellow uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: But if you want to be different, then uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Dark grey, something like this this colour or something. Industrial Designer: Just a regular uh remote colour. Marketing: Yeah like like yeah. Industrial Designer: And then have uh different covers uh to use. Marketing: Or or silver. I think it's better to have silver nowadays. User Interface: Silver. Industrial Designer: Silver, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: I think you see more silver than black. Industrial Designer: You see a lot of t uh silver televisions. Project Manager: But still silver and black are {disfmarker} well User Interface: Silver rubber. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah the the silver black are our main colours. Yeah. Project Manager: silver is new but also traditional, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: I think we have silver, black and between those {vocalsound} is like I dunno s five colours between them or something. Project Manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing, I mean it Industrial Designer: Yeah y I think it's better to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow, we have. Project Manager: could be ugly, but it's definitely fancy. User Interface: {vocalsound} But Marketing: R red. Industrial Designer: Yeah th yeah. That's right. User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: But if you use uh silver, uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy. Marketing: Green, wood, brown. Yeah. True. Industrial Designer: When you use titanium, silver is fancy, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but when you use silver rubber, it isn't fancy. Silver has to shine, and rubber doesn't shine. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You understand? {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I understand. Project Manager: Yeah I would think about colours like uh red, yellow, green, blue, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah o of course. Project Manager: just {disfmarker} Marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours, like red and brown, {gap} dark red and brown. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just all kind of colour. Industrial Designer: Fruity. Fruity loops. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Maroon. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one, or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Who's pinging? User Interface: Is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: You are pingin Marketing: No {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I thought we User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You ping. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh that wraps it up? Everybody knows uh what to do? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Well I wrote it down here. I wrote it down here what to do um. User Interface: Well I don't know what to do, Industrial Designer: Well not what to do. Not what to do. User Interface: but. {vocalsound} Project Manager: The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes. Um here are the individual actions, Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board, User Interface: Ooh. {vocalsound} Right. Marketing: S Project Manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: tough. We'll be available. User Interface: But do we have to {disfmarker} We'll work together, but do we have to stay here, or do we {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: I don't know. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Thin I think we should work {vocalsound}. Project Manager: Okay well that was what I had to say, uh, User Interface: Yeah I think {gap}. Project Manager: final thoughts from anyone, or? User Interface: No. Project Manager: We're finished. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Okay, well thank you very much. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Thank you very much. Marketing: Finished. User Interface: So we have to keep talking English now? {vocalsound}

User Interface thought speech recognition function was useful because people always lost remote control. It would be easy to find with a microphone in the remote. The basic design of remote control would include volume and program icon, buttons move and mute, recognisable and scroll function in the curvy shape. This design would mainly be toward young people.

tr-sq-798

tr-sq-798_0

What was Marketing's conclusion about the remote control watch trend? Project Manager: Okay, welcome everyone to our next meeting. I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting, but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side. Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting, which is hereby opened. Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder, which was quite some typing. Um today we once again have uh three presentations, if I'm right, and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts. And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that. Okay, well Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Um in the same order as last time? Industrial Designer: W sure. User Interface: Mm. Alright. Project Manager: Okay. Well, take it away. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay uh welcome you all. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Components design, um {vocalsound} uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh {disfmarker} elaborate some of the things I did. I I elaborated on the concept. What should be um uh said about uh the components, uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls. Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um {vocalsound} you know from what uh the remote control's formed. Uh first of all, the case, the case, the surrounding of the of the the remote control. {vocalsound} I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about. Marketing: Don't destroy my giraffe. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Giraffe's gone now. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay um the case was is made from rubber, I suppose. There's one of the {disfmarker} because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control Marketing: Drop it. User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option. But uh it's a very expensive material. Uh rubber is, I think, uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control. Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber. Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to {disfmarker} it lets lets itself colour. Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly. Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour, so if you scratch it it's still the same colour, perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged. But it's a very strong material. Um {vocalsound} I h I had an idea single covered uh curved, sorry, single curved. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh so it's t two dimensional. I think it's uh it's best to draw oh User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: green. Marketing: {vocalsound} Bright colour. Fancy colour. Forward. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} New. Blank. Okay. Marketing: You have to go t Industrial Designer: Let's make it uh black. Okay. I thought of an idea like this. Oh {gap} that. {vocalsound} Um delete. Blank. Okay. So it also looks nice when it's on your table. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So you get uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table, but it's c it's stands. Marketing: Oh it's a side view. Industrial Designer: Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table. Um the graphical user interface and the buttons, uh we also thought about that already. Uh I thought about uh the L_C_D_ touch screen, which is uh is easy to clean too. One of the great uh advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some {gap} or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright. Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons. Uh the batteries, uh we also thought about that already, uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh {vocalsound} the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that. Questions, {gap}? User Interface: No. {vocalsound} Marketing: No no no no no. Just looking. Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting, not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use. And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television. Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements, there should be an advanced chip in it User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase, so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side. Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours. That was correct, wasn't it? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image, so yeah, it needs colour, Industrial Designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind, Project Manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: wasn't it? Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan? Project Manager: It must be recognisable. Industrial Designer: Okay okay. Well that's possible of course. User Interface: You can put the R_ and R_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We could make a little R_ and R_ {gap} on the top of the machine. Uh so they are {vocalsound} pretty boring, I suggest, because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours, so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting. And uh will buy uh {vocalsound} them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours. Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that, but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic, hard plastic or uh titanium. And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control, because it yeah it makes sense. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Well that's all about my uh my findings. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. User Interface: I will go next. Marketing: Mm mm mm. Next. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Alright so Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface. Uh how it should look. And uh {vocalsound} uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons, but only an L_C_D_ screen, so I had to uh look on that. And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of. Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition. And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you. And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker. And so that it you say uh good morning, uh coffee maker, and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer. Um perhaps it's useful, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and {gap} calls or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: It's true. User Interface: And perhaps we could uh implement that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like Industrial Designer: Oh my God. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: but I can't draw, so uh don't {vocalsound} make too much of it {vocalsound}. I tried to uh the L_C_D_ screen I tried to sort of to draw {gap}. I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume. I don't know if there is an icon for the program, but Industrial Designer: Not just a P_. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: P_ yeah, just a P_. User Interface: So uh Industrial Designer: . . . {gap} User Interface: and then the buttons above and uh below Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon. Um. Marketing: Where's where's the button for two {gap}? User Interface: I forgot that one. {vocalsound} I thought I forgot something, Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: but uh {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: And uh and uh the numbers, that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth. Industrial Designer: Ah. Marketing: Doesn't matter. User Interface: Um an options button. And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options, I think. It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of uh thing. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: No. User Interface: So could call it settings or something. Industrial Designer: Yep. User Interface: But this is a bit uh how I thought it. And uh the L_C_D_ uh somewhere on the remote. Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should, so that it's better in your hand or something uh. Industrial Designer: Oh okay, User Interface: But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Uh and then uh if you press the op options button, now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, {gap}. User Interface: And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings. And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus. So they want to u use one button and then something happens, and not choose with uh this kind of uh {disfmarker} And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. User Interface: That's an option. And that was my uh finding dinge. Project Manager: Thanks. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now our third Industrial Designer: Go Danny, go Danny. {vocalsound} Project Manager: team member with his presentation. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching. The trends from the past years, what the people like, what the youngsters like, what the elderly people liked about shapes, colours, material and stuff.'Kay. The method I used was {disfmarker} Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours, shapes, material they wanted uh from elderly and young people. So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself. Findings I made. The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy. The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative, okay, like the L_C_D_ screen that's {vocalsound} quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this. And the third thing is it should be easy to use. I think with only one menu, four button, channel, volume, it should also be enough for easy to use. The personal preferences for the young people, they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow, uh strawberry red and stuff. Industrial Designer: Fruity? {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Grass green. Industrial Designer: Fruity. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Like that. The round shapes, and soft material m materials like the rubber. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. Marketing: It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's build it into a sponge. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown, red, deep reds and stuff. They liked square shapes with round edges. And hard materials like wood, um titanium. They those kind of materials they liked. This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours, innovative, all the colours you see, the blue, the red, the white, the yellow, that stuff. And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like Project Manager: Oh y {vocalsound} Marketing: this or something. It's it's a bit like a banana. And the colour should be yellow, or something. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And for the elderly people just plain old. Because we decided to have two kind of remotes, two designs, or was it two colours? User Interface: It was one remote, I think, Marketing: Different colours, yeah. User Interface: different colours. Marketing: We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes. I think like my colleague, you said, is that's e better, or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something, with round squares. Simple but User Interface: {gap} Marketing: easy to use. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} So that's it. Project Manager: So for the older people, a more traditional uh form. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: That is my {disfmarker} Yeah, like the older o older colours I can maybe {disfmarker} User Interface: You could you could uh change the colours, that was also the idea. I don't know which shape you should should take, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Colours th the elderly people {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the uh remote control? Project Manager: the shape of it. User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle. Round but square. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, s Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: round corners, but s but square, yeah. Project Manager: But maybe then both groups won't buy it. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh i i if you do it uh uh square, with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i Do you know what I mean? Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you mean, kind of like a {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: {gap} wait, like {vocalsound} like this {vocalsound} uh a bit. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So it's a bit square, but it's also a bit uh round. Industrial Designer: Kinda like a beer glass. {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: So but then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know what you mean. User Interface: Same sides. {vocalsound} But that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's also easy to to have {vocalsound} to to put in your hand. User Interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped, so that's uh {disfmarker} But perhaps that's a good thing, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so that's easy to use. People know the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Will recognise that's as a remote control. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Look something like that {gap}. Autumn colours like red, brown. Industrial Designer: Uh when I saw your d Oh. Marketing: They liked the wood a lot. Industrial Designer: Huh. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, kinda like old cars, uh {disfmarker} Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance, medieval kind of things. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Swords. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let's put it all together. Marketing: Those kind of {disfmarker} Yeah, those kind of things. So you see the big difference between the young people? Fresh, exciting. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And the old people, old and boring. User Interface: But that's easily to do with the colour, I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {disfmarker} Sorry? User Interface: That's easy to do with the colours, I think. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah we think so too. Industrial Designer: Uh. Marketing: Because otherwise we have to {gap} get different shapes, and colour {gap} way easier than yeah the shapes. In material yeah rubber, rubber is, like I said, young people like more soft materials and spongy ones Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: and the old people like {vocalsound} plain wood. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber, or soft rubber. Or something something between that. User Interface: Yeah think uh {disfmarker} Also in between. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Soft rubber. Marketing: Yeah {gap} soft rubber Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: which you can you can feel in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you {disfmarker} Um. User Interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it, Marketing: Or {disfmarker} User Interface: but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It should shouldn't be {gap}. Marketing: No. Or or wh what's something harder. No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something. That's the bit you can press it in, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: or something harder. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber. This uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, something like this, yeah. User Interface: But it's quite hard, this. Marketing: Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: It's feels kind s spongy. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Spongy. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Something. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think it's rubber. Marketing: No. N n n Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh did you have something about uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Are you going to invite Sponge Bob, maybe he can {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: So we should first decide about shape, I think. Industrial Designer: Ding ding. User Interface: Which uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I think that's the better thing to do. {vocalsound} User Interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it, Marketing: {gap} User Interface: and can decide uh. Industrial Designer: Um I also s uh can't help but notice {vocalsound} that you uh used an {disfmarker} you had a remote control {gap} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was uh rather small. Um. Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Yeah Marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like {disfmarker} User Interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit Industrial Designer: . . . This was your size, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger. Marketing: Yeah three quarter of the of the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, three quarters. So uh so you don't have to put your {disfmarker} {vocalsound} oh. Marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh new, blank. So uh when you get {vocalsound} this uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} User Interface: Ooh {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh kinda like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or should it be larger? Marketing: Larger I think. Industrial Designer: Larger? Because you want to put your hands {disfmarker} User Interface: But if you pu Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen. Industrial Designer: You want Marketing: becau because you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Perhaps that's best. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah okay, true, true, true true. Industrial Designer: Your thumb here. User Interface: {vocalsound} But not on the screen because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: that's uh that's an idea. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Looks a bit like a Game Boy now. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself, uh you'll {vocalsound} you'll always get some {disfmarker} User Interface: You always touch it, Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Industrial Designer: Going to be very greasy and stuff. Marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One to zero, the two digit, {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah you don't want it too small. How yeah how large {disfmarker} Marketing: You have to you have to {disfmarker} Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah they have thick fingers {gap}. But if you wanna make it in international, Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands Marketing: Yeah true, Industrial Designer: and we got these large {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: but {disfmarker} Yeah, we have we have the zoom option, right? Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course, yeah. You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. And we won't include a a pen, or something to point, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: hey, we we want to do it with our fingers, Marketing: No. Project Manager: right? Industrial Designer: Your fingers, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Y you could include a pen Industrial Designer: You don't want uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use {disfmarker} Marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen. Project Manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that Marketing: Yeah {gap} the fingers, yeah. User Interface: Yeah o yeah {gap}, if they think it's handy to use a pen. Project Manager: and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen. I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this, or something. Project Manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers, huh. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} You can do {gap} whatever uh any uh cloth. Marketing: Yeah but that that can be {gap} with plain soft tissue. Yeah, Project Manager: Okay well Marketing: you can buy those at {disfmarker} Project Manager: maybe, if I can interrupt you, maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision. Industrial Designer: Sure. Project Manager: So we can discuss these points. {gap} those points um energy question mark. How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how {disfmarker} are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put {gap} in it. Uh chip on print and case. Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here, but I hope you have ideas about them. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The docking station. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. So that's the the the first point. Marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries Project Manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting. Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Just like with the telephone. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead Industrial Designer: I kinda like your {disfmarker} Marketing: then you can re you can uh change them. Industrial Designer: Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice? Mouse. Computer mouse. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah like those. Industrial Designer: Kinda like those kind of batteries. User Interface: {vocalsound} but it should be th I think normal batteries, Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound} User Interface: not not like two or two uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, normal plain you {disfmarker} No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Simple rechargeable uh batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Um what was with the chip on print? Industrial Designer: The chip on print? Um {disfmarker} Uh you gotta f Yeah. I think so. Chip on print with a with a {vocalsound} simple uh a sim not a simple but a {disfmarker} Marketing: Print plate. Industrial Designer: We also discussed that. Didn't we? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen? You still have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Uh {gap} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah. You always have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Beg your pardon? Marketing: You always have a print plate, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, of course, yeah. Marketing: right? Always, so {disfmarker} I dunno what w what we have to decide about that. Project Manager: Yeah well it's a good question. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It just was in there Industrial Designer: {gap} Well uh Project Manager: and I didn't have any information about it, Industrial Designer: chip on print, I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got, uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button. Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen, with no uh with not {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the buttons are not always on the same place, Marketing: Yeah, okay. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: for example if you enlarge a button, or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen, uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: When you got a regular button, th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: so that that's not of any discussion, I think. Project Manager: Well you need some kind of C_P_U_, I guess. Industrial Designer: {gap} I suppose so. Marketing: Mm, I don't I dunno I don't think that's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_. Industrial Designer: Yeah because it has to uh b Marketing: Yeah, it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen. I think they don't need that big of C_P_U_. Industrial Designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume. Marketing: Yeah, okay, true true. True. Industrial Designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_ User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the L_C_D_ screen. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And the case, yeah we already discussed the case, User Interface: It's rubber. Industrial Designer: we wanted to make it from rubber User Interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this? Industrial Designer: and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Or softer rubber or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh hard rubber I think. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's the easy to ha uh to to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: It bounces back from the floor where you {vocalsound} throw it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah sure, look {vocalsound}. Marketing: We have different colours. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah this in different colours? Industrial Designer: D Marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes? No I don't think, I think it's more round than square. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah it's a bit. But I think it should be a bit longer, perhaps. Marketing: So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people. Project Manager: Yeah. But that's what we want, {gap}. User Interface: Yeah. I think so too. Marketing: Yeah, that's our target. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's our main target. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Lower than forty years, I think Industrial Designer: {gap} Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve? Marketing: it was. Industrial Designer: So i Marketing: Oh yeah that that {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I thought that was a quite good User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off, of course. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah yeah you have a fancy design, then, right away. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Because it Marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: you don't have to put it {disfmarker} get it in your hand, you can put it next to you Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: and then dive it in User Interface: Yeah, that's a good idea. Marketing: and {gap}. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's a lot easier. User Interface: Yeah, alright. Industrial Designer: So, so Marketing: So {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: you got uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Did you write that down? Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured {vocalsound} remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You can't you You can't oh, you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, you can uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah but I wrote it down. {vocalsound} User Interface: It's pretty easy but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} Marketing: And load it on the the user the server. Project Manager: What about the user interface, there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that {gap}. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: You you showed your drawing. User Interface: I had what I just uh I should {gap} again. I miss a few buttons, but. Well. At least uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what we should also have on, I just remembered, um a menu to go back through the first uh {gap} if if you touch options, you can't go back to this uh right away now. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to go back. Yeah uh uh. User Interface: This {gap} {disfmarker} Marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal? User Interface: I don't know. Marketing: With the minus and the plus. User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker} Marketing: I think it's easier than {disfmarker} User Interface: I don't know. I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but I don't know what they think. Industrial Designer: Sorry? {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical? Marketing: For sound and channel. User Interface: Th Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen. If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter. If you make it uh in a rectangle {disfmarker} User Interface: Right well if we make it like this, I think if you Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I so it's it's it's it's {disfmarker} User Interface: put it like this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Square. {gap} Marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like {disfmarker} Oh a button uh minus here, plus over here. A minus here, plus over here. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh, okay. Marketing: And on here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The other buttons and on here {vocalsound} the top. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The options and then you have something like uh the P_ over here, User Interface: But I think I wou Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: and the sound. User Interface: I think that's a matter of what you're used to. Marketing: Something uh {disfmarker} User Interface: I think I would put a plus and a min uh here. And then the P_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle. Industrial Designer: Uh. {gap} Marketing: Something like {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Sh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Take your time. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Plus minus plus uh {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah Marketing: minus. User Interface: but I think when you are holding it, you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus. Marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb. User Interface: Yeah but I think {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know. {vocalsound} Perhaps I have some examples. Industrial Designer: W User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then. {vocalsound} Marketing: Who's the usability engineering? User Interface: That's me. Marketing: She is. {gap} User Interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. User Interface: The {disfmarker}'Cause they can use that better. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Consistency. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Oh {gap} {disfmarker} I have that those s numbers. User Interface: I {disfmarker} Here is our {disfmarker} here are uh Marketing: Or a good watch. User Interface: I don't really know. Marketing: B Project Manager: Everybody's searching in his data. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Channel selection. Per hour one hundred and sixty eight. Volume selection four times an hour User Interface: Yeah but {gap} {disfmarker} But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. So not how much {disfmarker} n not how often it's used, but {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} User Interface: W what's what's usual or normal. Marketing: Yeah, that depends on on on the remote. User Interface: Yes I'm looking here. But here's it's below, Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: here also, and now here's here's next to each other. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: I think it's {gap} it's a {disfmarker} Marketing: I think {gap} because I have two televisions at home. One is horizontal, one is vertical, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah it does it doesn't really matter, Marketing: so it depends. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Depends. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other, because you go higher and down. Marketing: Yeah, lower. User Interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other, because you would go further and back. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: That's how it's is usually {gap} when I look here Marketing: True. User Interface: that's what I see. Industrial Designer: Okay, um. Let's cut to the chase. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got to change. Project Manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons User Interface: I don't know. Project Manager: just the Marketing: Yeah is it is user interface. Project Manager: concepts. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Component. User Interface: This concept is in the actual design, but you should know where you would place a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Okay, well le Yeah. Interface, yeah. User Interface: And the speech uh shall we implement that? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology, huh? Industrial Designer: Technologies, uh. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that, where are you, but then it says I'm here. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. But then you should also find a place {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Makes it possible to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something. You can talk into the corner. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, a microphone, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Not even necessary, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: because a lotta {disfmarker} you can make a very sensitive microphone, so it makes it possible to uh {vocalsound} just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote. Project Manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh User Interface: Yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, that's also {gap}. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: over there. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: So, in the middle or something. Industrial Designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: because yeah, it doesn't matter where the microphone is. User Interface: {gap} but you should uh decide where you want to put it. Industrial Designer: Ah okay, sure, okay, User Interface: Right? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: well tha Marketing: Um I think where it isn't seen Industrial Designer: Underneath? {gap} Indeed. It shouldn't be uh very uh visible. Marketing: the most. User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company. {vocalsound} Marketing: Inside. Project Manager: Yeah. Well Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, why no Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out Marketing: I i between the round of the R_. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote, huh, the the speech control. User Interface: Yeah. So where do you want to put it? Marketing: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah actually it does {vocalsound} because it you can you can find it better if you use it. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah User Interface: It's a way for you to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: So it makes more sense just'cause other remotes don't have that. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: But are we talking about the button, or about the microphone? User Interface: About a microphone, Project Manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing, User Interface: there is no button. Project Manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Where isn't {disfmarker} i it isn't most in sight. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well put it there. I don't mind. {vocalsound} Marketing: I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That doesn't doesn't really matter. Marketing: No. Actually doesn't. Industrial Designer: Okay. So? User Interface: Alright. Any more uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So well uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Interface type. Project Manager: type, supplements, anything. Yeah, well we already s discussed that, huh, the the L_C_D_ Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ yeah, Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap} I think {disfmarker} I thought the, like you said, like scroll {vocalsound} next to the remote isn't that handy. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah. {gap} Marketing: I think it's better to just {gap} up what you'd like to do on the screen. If you want to go back you have to back button go back, Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu. Industrial Designer: Hey, User Interface: {vocalsound} Um yeah. Yeah Industrial Designer: {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh Industrial Designer: Use the scroll. Yeah I think so too. Marketing: Yeah? You do like it? Industrial Designer: So why not, on on side. User Interface: Or at least {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll, but the menu {gap} they like most, and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Fast, yeah. So if you've got a settings, if you {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster. Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options, Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then {disfmarker} User Interface: But you have {disfmarker} it's f uh Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options, User Interface: we have five or four or something. Industrial Designer: because when you use {disfmarker} Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television, you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen. Marketing: Y Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, true. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or. Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use. Marketing: {gap} Okay, no problem. Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: which you can touch User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: It's also different. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Well there's our five minutes uh warning. Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components, everyone? Marketing: Um. No, colours are clear, Project Manager: Everybody think they can can Marketing: shape is clear, material is clear. Industrial Designer: Okay, what's the standard colour? Project Manager: work for that? Marketing: And a standard, Project Manager: Is there a standard colour? Marketing: yeah we don't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I I Marketing: no we have different colour. Industrial Designer: You got you got different colours, Marketing: How many colours are we going to {disfmarker} User Interface: You should you should have a black one Industrial Designer: but you should have a standard colour. User Interface: because uh I think black is standard. Marketing: Black. Yeah, black I think is is the standard. Industrial Designer: Black? With the with the yellow uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: But if you want to be different, then uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Dark grey, something like this this colour or something. Industrial Designer: Just a regular uh remote colour. Marketing: Yeah like like yeah. Industrial Designer: And then have uh different covers uh to use. Marketing: Or or silver. I think it's better to have silver nowadays. User Interface: Silver. Industrial Designer: Silver, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: I think you see more silver than black. Industrial Designer: You see a lot of t uh silver televisions. Project Manager: But still silver and black are {disfmarker} well User Interface: Silver rubber. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah the the silver black are our main colours. Yeah. Project Manager: silver is new but also traditional, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: I think we have silver, black and between those {vocalsound} is like I dunno s five colours between them or something. Project Manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing, I mean it Industrial Designer: Yeah y I think it's better to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow, we have. Project Manager: could be ugly, but it's definitely fancy. User Interface: {vocalsound} But Marketing: R red. Industrial Designer: Yeah th yeah. That's right. User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: But if you use uh silver, uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy. Marketing: Green, wood, brown. Yeah. True. Industrial Designer: When you use titanium, silver is fancy, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but when you use silver rubber, it isn't fancy. Silver has to shine, and rubber doesn't shine. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You understand? {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I understand. Project Manager: Yeah I would think about colours like uh red, yellow, green, blue, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah o of course. Project Manager: just {disfmarker} Marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours, like red and brown, {gap} dark red and brown. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just all kind of colour. Industrial Designer: Fruity. Fruity loops. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Maroon. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one, or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Who's pinging? User Interface: Is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: You are pingin Marketing: No {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I thought we User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You ping. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh that wraps it up? Everybody knows uh what to do? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Well I wrote it down here. I wrote it down here what to do um. User Interface: Well I don't know what to do, Industrial Designer: Well not what to do. Not what to do. User Interface: but. {vocalsound} Project Manager: The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes. Um here are the individual actions, Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board, User Interface: Ooh. {vocalsound} Right. Marketing: S Project Manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: tough. We'll be available. User Interface: But do we have to {disfmarker} We'll work together, but do we have to stay here, or do we {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: I don't know. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Thin I think we should work {vocalsound}. Project Manager: Okay well that was what I had to say, uh, User Interface: Yeah I think {gap}. Project Manager: final thoughts from anyone, or? User Interface: No. Project Manager: We're finished. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Okay, well thank you very much. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Thank you very much. Marketing: Finished. User Interface: So we have to keep talking English now? {vocalsound}

Marketing introduced watch trends in shapes, colours, material and functions from the past years. In Marketing's data, young people prefered fruity colours, round shapes and soft material. In contrast, elderly people liked dark colours, square shapes with round edges and hard material.

tr-sq-799

tr-sq-799_0

Summarize the discussion about User Interface design about remote control. Project Manager: Okay, welcome everyone to our next meeting. I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting, but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side. Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting, which is hereby opened. Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder, which was quite some typing. Um today we once again have uh three presentations, if I'm right, and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts. And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that. Okay, well Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Um in the same order as last time? Industrial Designer: W sure. User Interface: Mm. Alright. Project Manager: Okay. Well, take it away. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay uh welcome you all. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Components design, um {vocalsound} uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh {disfmarker} elaborate some of the things I did. I I elaborated on the concept. What should be um uh said about uh the components, uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls. Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um {vocalsound} you know from what uh the remote control's formed. Uh first of all, the case, the case, the surrounding of the of the the remote control. {vocalsound} I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about. Marketing: Don't destroy my giraffe. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Giraffe's gone now. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay um the case was is made from rubber, I suppose. There's one of the {disfmarker} because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control Marketing: Drop it. User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option. But uh it's a very expensive material. Uh rubber is, I think, uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control. Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber. Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to {disfmarker} it lets lets itself colour. Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly. Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour, so if you scratch it it's still the same colour, perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged. But it's a very strong material. Um {vocalsound} I h I had an idea single covered uh curved, sorry, single curved. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh so it's t two dimensional. I think it's uh it's best to draw oh User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: green. Marketing: {vocalsound} Bright colour. Fancy colour. Forward. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} New. Blank. Okay. Marketing: You have to go t Industrial Designer: Let's make it uh black. Okay. I thought of an idea like this. Oh {gap} that. {vocalsound} Um delete. Blank. Okay. So it also looks nice when it's on your table. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So you get uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table, but it's c it's stands. Marketing: Oh it's a side view. Industrial Designer: Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table. Um the graphical user interface and the buttons, uh we also thought about that already. Uh I thought about uh the L_C_D_ touch screen, which is uh is easy to clean too. One of the great uh advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some {gap} or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright. Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons. Uh the batteries, uh we also thought about that already, uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh {vocalsound} the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that. Questions, {gap}? User Interface: No. {vocalsound} Marketing: No no no no no. Just looking. Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting, not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use. And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television. Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements, there should be an advanced chip in it User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase, so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side. Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours. That was correct, wasn't it? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image, so yeah, it needs colour, Industrial Designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind, Project Manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: wasn't it? Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan? Project Manager: It must be recognisable. Industrial Designer: Okay okay. Well that's possible of course. User Interface: You can put the R_ and R_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We could make a little R_ and R_ {gap} on the top of the machine. Uh so they are {vocalsound} pretty boring, I suggest, because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours, so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting. And uh will buy uh {vocalsound} them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours. Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that, but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic, hard plastic or uh titanium. And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control, because it yeah it makes sense. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Well that's all about my uh my findings. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. User Interface: I will go next. Marketing: Mm mm mm. Next. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Alright so Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface. Uh how it should look. And uh {vocalsound} uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons, but only an L_C_D_ screen, so I had to uh look on that. And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of. Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition. And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you. And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker. And so that it you say uh good morning, uh coffee maker, and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer. Um perhaps it's useful, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and {gap} calls or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: It's true. User Interface: And perhaps we could uh implement that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like Industrial Designer: Oh my God. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: but I can't draw, so uh don't {vocalsound} make too much of it {vocalsound}. I tried to uh the L_C_D_ screen I tried to sort of to draw {gap}. I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume. I don't know if there is an icon for the program, but Industrial Designer: Not just a P_. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: P_ yeah, just a P_. User Interface: So uh Industrial Designer: . . . {gap} User Interface: and then the buttons above and uh below Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon. Um. Marketing: Where's where's the button for two {gap}? User Interface: I forgot that one. {vocalsound} I thought I forgot something, Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: but uh {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: And uh and uh the numbers, that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth. Industrial Designer: Ah. Marketing: Doesn't matter. User Interface: Um an options button. And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options, I think. It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of uh thing. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: No. User Interface: So could call it settings or something. Industrial Designer: Yep. User Interface: But this is a bit uh how I thought it. And uh the L_C_D_ uh somewhere on the remote. Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should, so that it's better in your hand or something uh. Industrial Designer: Oh okay, User Interface: But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Uh and then uh if you press the op options button, now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, {gap}. User Interface: And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings. And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus. So they want to u use one button and then something happens, and not choose with uh this kind of uh {disfmarker} And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. User Interface: That's an option. And that was my uh finding dinge. Project Manager: Thanks. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now our third Industrial Designer: Go Danny, go Danny. {vocalsound} Project Manager: team member with his presentation. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching. The trends from the past years, what the people like, what the youngsters like, what the elderly people liked about shapes, colours, material and stuff.'Kay. The method I used was {disfmarker} Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours, shapes, material they wanted uh from elderly and young people. So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself. Findings I made. The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy. The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative, okay, like the L_C_D_ screen that's {vocalsound} quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this. And the third thing is it should be easy to use. I think with only one menu, four button, channel, volume, it should also be enough for easy to use. The personal preferences for the young people, they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow, uh strawberry red and stuff. Industrial Designer: Fruity? {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Grass green. Industrial Designer: Fruity. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Like that. The round shapes, and soft material m materials like the rubber. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. Marketing: It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's build it into a sponge. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown, red, deep reds and stuff. They liked square shapes with round edges. And hard materials like wood, um titanium. They those kind of materials they liked. This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours, innovative, all the colours you see, the blue, the red, the white, the yellow, that stuff. And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like Project Manager: Oh y {vocalsound} Marketing: this or something. It's it's a bit like a banana. And the colour should be yellow, or something. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And for the elderly people just plain old. Because we decided to have two kind of remotes, two designs, or was it two colours? User Interface: It was one remote, I think, Marketing: Different colours, yeah. User Interface: different colours. Marketing: We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes. I think like my colleague, you said, is that's e better, or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something, with round squares. Simple but User Interface: {gap} Marketing: easy to use. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} So that's it. Project Manager: So for the older people, a more traditional uh form. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: That is my {disfmarker} Yeah, like the older o older colours I can maybe {disfmarker} User Interface: You could you could uh change the colours, that was also the idea. I don't know which shape you should should take, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Colours th the elderly people {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the uh remote control? Project Manager: the shape of it. User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle. Round but square. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, s Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: round corners, but s but square, yeah. Project Manager: But maybe then both groups won't buy it. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh i i if you do it uh uh square, with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i Do you know what I mean? Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you mean, kind of like a {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: {gap} wait, like {vocalsound} like this {vocalsound} uh a bit. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So it's a bit square, but it's also a bit uh round. Industrial Designer: Kinda like a beer glass. {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: So but then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know what you mean. User Interface: Same sides. {vocalsound} But that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's also easy to to have {vocalsound} to to put in your hand. User Interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped, so that's uh {disfmarker} But perhaps that's a good thing, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so that's easy to use. People know the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Will recognise that's as a remote control. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Look something like that {gap}. Autumn colours like red, brown. Industrial Designer: Uh when I saw your d Oh. Marketing: They liked the wood a lot. Industrial Designer: Huh. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, kinda like old cars, uh {disfmarker} Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance, medieval kind of things. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Swords. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let's put it all together. Marketing: Those kind of {disfmarker} Yeah, those kind of things. So you see the big difference between the young people? Fresh, exciting. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And the old people, old and boring. User Interface: But that's easily to do with the colour, I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {disfmarker} Sorry? User Interface: That's easy to do with the colours, I think. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah we think so too. Industrial Designer: Uh. Marketing: Because otherwise we have to {gap} get different shapes, and colour {gap} way easier than yeah the shapes. In material yeah rubber, rubber is, like I said, young people like more soft materials and spongy ones Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: and the old people like {vocalsound} plain wood. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber, or soft rubber. Or something something between that. User Interface: Yeah think uh {disfmarker} Also in between. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Soft rubber. Marketing: Yeah {gap} soft rubber Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: which you can you can feel in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you {disfmarker} Um. User Interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it, Marketing: Or {disfmarker} User Interface: but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It should shouldn't be {gap}. Marketing: No. Or or wh what's something harder. No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something. That's the bit you can press it in, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: or something harder. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber. This uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, something like this, yeah. User Interface: But it's quite hard, this. Marketing: Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: It's feels kind s spongy. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Spongy. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Something. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think it's rubber. Marketing: No. N n n Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh did you have something about uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Are you going to invite Sponge Bob, maybe he can {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: So we should first decide about shape, I think. Industrial Designer: Ding ding. User Interface: Which uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I think that's the better thing to do. {vocalsound} User Interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it, Marketing: {gap} User Interface: and can decide uh. Industrial Designer: Um I also s uh can't help but notice {vocalsound} that you uh used an {disfmarker} you had a remote control {gap} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was uh rather small. Um. Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Yeah Marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like {disfmarker} User Interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit Industrial Designer: . . . This was your size, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger. Marketing: Yeah three quarter of the of the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, three quarters. So uh so you don't have to put your {disfmarker} {vocalsound} oh. Marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh new, blank. So uh when you get {vocalsound} this uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} User Interface: Ooh {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh kinda like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or should it be larger? Marketing: Larger I think. Industrial Designer: Larger? Because you want to put your hands {disfmarker} User Interface: But if you pu Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen. Industrial Designer: You want Marketing: becau because you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Perhaps that's best. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah okay, true, true, true true. Industrial Designer: Your thumb here. User Interface: {vocalsound} But not on the screen because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: that's uh that's an idea. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Looks a bit like a Game Boy now. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself, uh you'll {vocalsound} you'll always get some {disfmarker} User Interface: You always touch it, Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Industrial Designer: Going to be very greasy and stuff. Marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One to zero, the two digit, {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah you don't want it too small. How yeah how large {disfmarker} Marketing: You have to you have to {disfmarker} Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah they have thick fingers {gap}. But if you wanna make it in international, Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands Marketing: Yeah true, Industrial Designer: and we got these large {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: but {disfmarker} Yeah, we have we have the zoom option, right? Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course, yeah. You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. And we won't include a a pen, or something to point, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: hey, we we want to do it with our fingers, Marketing: No. Project Manager: right? Industrial Designer: Your fingers, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Y you could include a pen Industrial Designer: You don't want uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use {disfmarker} Marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen. Project Manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that Marketing: Yeah {gap} the fingers, yeah. User Interface: Yeah o yeah {gap}, if they think it's handy to use a pen. Project Manager: and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen. I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this, or something. Project Manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers, huh. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} You can do {gap} whatever uh any uh cloth. Marketing: Yeah but that that can be {gap} with plain soft tissue. Yeah, Project Manager: Okay well Marketing: you can buy those at {disfmarker} Project Manager: maybe, if I can interrupt you, maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision. Industrial Designer: Sure. Project Manager: So we can discuss these points. {gap} those points um energy question mark. How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how {disfmarker} are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put {gap} in it. Uh chip on print and case. Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here, but I hope you have ideas about them. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The docking station. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. So that's the the the first point. Marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries Project Manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting. Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Just like with the telephone. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead Industrial Designer: I kinda like your {disfmarker} Marketing: then you can re you can uh change them. Industrial Designer: Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice? Mouse. Computer mouse. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah like those. Industrial Designer: Kinda like those kind of batteries. User Interface: {vocalsound} but it should be th I think normal batteries, Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound} User Interface: not not like two or two uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, normal plain you {disfmarker} No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Simple rechargeable uh batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Um what was with the chip on print? Industrial Designer: The chip on print? Um {disfmarker} Uh you gotta f Yeah. I think so. Chip on print with a with a {vocalsound} simple uh a sim not a simple but a {disfmarker} Marketing: Print plate. Industrial Designer: We also discussed that. Didn't we? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen? You still have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Uh {gap} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah. You always have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Beg your pardon? Marketing: You always have a print plate, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, of course, yeah. Marketing: right? Always, so {disfmarker} I dunno what w what we have to decide about that. Project Manager: Yeah well it's a good question. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It just was in there Industrial Designer: {gap} Well uh Project Manager: and I didn't have any information about it, Industrial Designer: chip on print, I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got, uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button. Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen, with no uh with not {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the buttons are not always on the same place, Marketing: Yeah, okay. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: for example if you enlarge a button, or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen, uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: When you got a regular button, th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: so that that's not of any discussion, I think. Project Manager: Well you need some kind of C_P_U_, I guess. Industrial Designer: {gap} I suppose so. Marketing: Mm, I don't I dunno I don't think that's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_. Industrial Designer: Yeah because it has to uh b Marketing: Yeah, it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen. I think they don't need that big of C_P_U_. Industrial Designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume. Marketing: Yeah, okay, true true. True. Industrial Designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_ User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the L_C_D_ screen. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And the case, yeah we already discussed the case, User Interface: It's rubber. Industrial Designer: we wanted to make it from rubber User Interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this? Industrial Designer: and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Or softer rubber or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh hard rubber I think. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's the easy to ha uh to to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: It bounces back from the floor where you {vocalsound} throw it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah sure, look {vocalsound}. Marketing: We have different colours. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah this in different colours? Industrial Designer: D Marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes? No I don't think, I think it's more round than square. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah it's a bit. But I think it should be a bit longer, perhaps. Marketing: So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people. Project Manager: Yeah. But that's what we want, {gap}. User Interface: Yeah. I think so too. Marketing: Yeah, that's our target. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's our main target. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Lower than forty years, I think Industrial Designer: {gap} Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve? Marketing: it was. Industrial Designer: So i Marketing: Oh yeah that that {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I thought that was a quite good User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off, of course. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah yeah you have a fancy design, then, right away. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Because it Marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: you don't have to put it {disfmarker} get it in your hand, you can put it next to you Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: and then dive it in User Interface: Yeah, that's a good idea. Marketing: and {gap}. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's a lot easier. User Interface: Yeah, alright. Industrial Designer: So, so Marketing: So {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: you got uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Did you write that down? Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured {vocalsound} remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You can't you You can't oh, you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, you can uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah but I wrote it down. {vocalsound} User Interface: It's pretty easy but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} Marketing: And load it on the the user the server. Project Manager: What about the user interface, there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that {gap}. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: You you showed your drawing. User Interface: I had what I just uh I should {gap} again. I miss a few buttons, but. Well. At least uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what we should also have on, I just remembered, um a menu to go back through the first uh {gap} if if you touch options, you can't go back to this uh right away now. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to go back. Yeah uh uh. User Interface: This {gap} {disfmarker} Marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal? User Interface: I don't know. Marketing: With the minus and the plus. User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker} Marketing: I think it's easier than {disfmarker} User Interface: I don't know. I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but I don't know what they think. Industrial Designer: Sorry? {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical? Marketing: For sound and channel. User Interface: Th Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen. If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter. If you make it uh in a rectangle {disfmarker} User Interface: Right well if we make it like this, I think if you Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I so it's it's it's it's {disfmarker} User Interface: put it like this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Square. {gap} Marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like {disfmarker} Oh a button uh minus here, plus over here. A minus here, plus over here. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh, okay. Marketing: And on here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The other buttons and on here {vocalsound} the top. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The options and then you have something like uh the P_ over here, User Interface: But I think I wou Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: and the sound. User Interface: I think that's a matter of what you're used to. Marketing: Something uh {disfmarker} User Interface: I think I would put a plus and a min uh here. And then the P_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle. Industrial Designer: Uh. {gap} Marketing: Something like {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Sh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Take your time. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Plus minus plus uh {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah Marketing: minus. User Interface: but I think when you are holding it, you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus. Marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb. User Interface: Yeah but I think {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know. {vocalsound} Perhaps I have some examples. Industrial Designer: W User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then. {vocalsound} Marketing: Who's the usability engineering? User Interface: That's me. Marketing: She is. {gap} User Interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. User Interface: The {disfmarker}'Cause they can use that better. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Consistency. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Oh {gap} {disfmarker} I have that those s numbers. User Interface: I {disfmarker} Here is our {disfmarker} here are uh Marketing: Or a good watch. User Interface: I don't really know. Marketing: B Project Manager: Everybody's searching in his data. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Channel selection. Per hour one hundred and sixty eight. Volume selection four times an hour User Interface: Yeah but {gap} {disfmarker} But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. So not how much {disfmarker} n not how often it's used, but {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} User Interface: W what's what's usual or normal. Marketing: Yeah, that depends on on on the remote. User Interface: Yes I'm looking here. But here's it's below, Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: here also, and now here's here's next to each other. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: I think it's {gap} it's a {disfmarker} Marketing: I think {gap} because I have two televisions at home. One is horizontal, one is vertical, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah it does it doesn't really matter, Marketing: so it depends. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Depends. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other, because you go higher and down. Marketing: Yeah, lower. User Interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other, because you would go further and back. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: That's how it's is usually {gap} when I look here Marketing: True. User Interface: that's what I see. Industrial Designer: Okay, um. Let's cut to the chase. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got to change. Project Manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons User Interface: I don't know. Project Manager: just the Marketing: Yeah is it is user interface. Project Manager: concepts. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Component. User Interface: This concept is in the actual design, but you should know where you would place a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Okay, well le Yeah. Interface, yeah. User Interface: And the speech uh shall we implement that? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology, huh? Industrial Designer: Technologies, uh. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that, where are you, but then it says I'm here. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. But then you should also find a place {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Makes it possible to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something. You can talk into the corner. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, a microphone, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Not even necessary, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: because a lotta {disfmarker} you can make a very sensitive microphone, so it makes it possible to uh {vocalsound} just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote. Project Manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh User Interface: Yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, that's also {gap}. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: over there. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: So, in the middle or something. Industrial Designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: because yeah, it doesn't matter where the microphone is. User Interface: {gap} but you should uh decide where you want to put it. Industrial Designer: Ah okay, sure, okay, User Interface: Right? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: well tha Marketing: Um I think where it isn't seen Industrial Designer: Underneath? {gap} Indeed. It shouldn't be uh very uh visible. Marketing: the most. User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company. {vocalsound} Marketing: Inside. Project Manager: Yeah. Well Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, why no Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out Marketing: I i between the round of the R_. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote, huh, the the speech control. User Interface: Yeah. So where do you want to put it? Marketing: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah actually it does {vocalsound} because it you can you can find it better if you use it. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah User Interface: It's a way for you to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: So it makes more sense just'cause other remotes don't have that. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: But are we talking about the button, or about the microphone? User Interface: About a microphone, Project Manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing, User Interface: there is no button. Project Manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Where isn't {disfmarker} i it isn't most in sight. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well put it there. I don't mind. {vocalsound} Marketing: I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That doesn't doesn't really matter. Marketing: No. Actually doesn't. Industrial Designer: Okay. So? User Interface: Alright. Any more uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So well uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Interface type. Project Manager: type, supplements, anything. Yeah, well we already s discussed that, huh, the the L_C_D_ Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ yeah, Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap} I think {disfmarker} I thought the, like you said, like scroll {vocalsound} next to the remote isn't that handy. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah. {gap} Marketing: I think it's better to just {gap} up what you'd like to do on the screen. If you want to go back you have to back button go back, Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu. Industrial Designer: Hey, User Interface: {vocalsound} Um yeah. Yeah Industrial Designer: {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh Industrial Designer: Use the scroll. Yeah I think so too. Marketing: Yeah? You do like it? Industrial Designer: So why not, on on side. User Interface: Or at least {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll, but the menu {gap} they like most, and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Fast, yeah. So if you've got a settings, if you {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster. Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options, Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then {disfmarker} User Interface: But you have {disfmarker} it's f uh Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options, User Interface: we have five or four or something. Industrial Designer: because when you use {disfmarker} Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television, you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen. Marketing: Y Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, true. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or. Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use. Marketing: {gap} Okay, no problem. Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: which you can touch User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: It's also different. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Well there's our five minutes uh warning. Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components, everyone? Marketing: Um. No, colours are clear, Project Manager: Everybody think they can can Marketing: shape is clear, material is clear. Industrial Designer: Okay, what's the standard colour? Project Manager: work for that? Marketing: And a standard, Project Manager: Is there a standard colour? Marketing: yeah we don't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I I Marketing: no we have different colour. Industrial Designer: You got you got different colours, Marketing: How many colours are we going to {disfmarker} User Interface: You should you should have a black one Industrial Designer: but you should have a standard colour. User Interface: because uh I think black is standard. Marketing: Black. Yeah, black I think is is the standard. Industrial Designer: Black? With the with the yellow uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: But if you want to be different, then uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Dark grey, something like this this colour or something. Industrial Designer: Just a regular uh remote colour. Marketing: Yeah like like yeah. Industrial Designer: And then have uh different covers uh to use. Marketing: Or or silver. I think it's better to have silver nowadays. User Interface: Silver. Industrial Designer: Silver, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: I think you see more silver than black. Industrial Designer: You see a lot of t uh silver televisions. Project Manager: But still silver and black are {disfmarker} well User Interface: Silver rubber. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah the the silver black are our main colours. Yeah. Project Manager: silver is new but also traditional, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: I think we have silver, black and between those {vocalsound} is like I dunno s five colours between them or something. Project Manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing, I mean it Industrial Designer: Yeah y I think it's better to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow, we have. Project Manager: could be ugly, but it's definitely fancy. User Interface: {vocalsound} But Marketing: R red. Industrial Designer: Yeah th yeah. That's right. User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: But if you use uh silver, uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy. Marketing: Green, wood, brown. Yeah. True. Industrial Designer: When you use titanium, silver is fancy, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but when you use silver rubber, it isn't fancy. Silver has to shine, and rubber doesn't shine. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You understand? {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I understand. Project Manager: Yeah I would think about colours like uh red, yellow, green, blue, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah o of course. Project Manager: just {disfmarker} Marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours, like red and brown, {gap} dark red and brown. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just all kind of colour. Industrial Designer: Fruity. Fruity loops. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Maroon. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one, or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Who's pinging? User Interface: Is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: You are pingin Marketing: No {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I thought we User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You ping. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh that wraps it up? Everybody knows uh what to do? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Well I wrote it down here. I wrote it down here what to do um. User Interface: Well I don't know what to do, Industrial Designer: Well not what to do. Not what to do. User Interface: but. {vocalsound} Project Manager: The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes. Um here are the individual actions, Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board, User Interface: Ooh. {vocalsound} Right. Marketing: S Project Manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: tough. We'll be available. User Interface: But do we have to {disfmarker} We'll work together, but do we have to stay here, or do we {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: I don't know. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Thin I think we should work {vocalsound}. Project Manager: Okay well that was what I had to say, uh, User Interface: Yeah I think {gap}. Project Manager: final thoughts from anyone, or? User Interface: No. Project Manager: We're finished. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Okay, well thank you very much. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Thank you very much. Marketing: Finished. User Interface: So we have to keep talking English now? {vocalsound}

User Interface designed position of normal and usual buttons such as plus, minus, sound and program. Project Manager suggested the microphone was a special point so it should be placed visibly. Then User Interface decided to put the microphone in a company logo. Marketing thought scroll was convenient, Industrial Designer agreed and designed scroll on the side. Project Manager thought remote control would be fancier with scroll.

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What did the group think about microphone position on the remote control? Project Manager: Okay, welcome everyone to our next meeting. I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting, but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side. Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting, which is hereby opened. Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder, which was quite some typing. Um today we once again have uh three presentations, if I'm right, and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts. And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that. Okay, well Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Project Manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation. Marketing:'Kay. Project Manager: Um in the same order as last time? Industrial Designer: W sure. User Interface: Mm. Alright. Project Manager: Okay. Well, take it away. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay uh welcome you all. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Components design, um {vocalsound} uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh {disfmarker} elaborate some of the things I did. I I elaborated on the concept. What should be um uh said about uh the components, uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls. Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um {vocalsound} you know from what uh the remote control's formed. Uh first of all, the case, the case, the surrounding of the of the the remote control. {vocalsound} I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about. Marketing: Don't destroy my giraffe. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Giraffe's gone now. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Okay um the case was is made from rubber, I suppose. There's one of the {disfmarker} because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control Marketing: Drop it. User Interface: Hmm. Industrial Designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option. But uh it's a very expensive material. Uh rubber is, I think, uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control. Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber. Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to {disfmarker} it lets lets itself colour. Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly. Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour, so if you scratch it it's still the same colour, perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged. But it's a very strong material. Um {vocalsound} I h I had an idea single covered uh curved, sorry, single curved. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh so it's t two dimensional. I think it's uh it's best to draw oh User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: green. Marketing: {vocalsound} Bright colour. Fancy colour. Forward. Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} New. Blank. Okay. Marketing: You have to go t Industrial Designer: Let's make it uh black. Okay. I thought of an idea like this. Oh {gap} that. {vocalsound} Um delete. Blank. Okay. So it also looks nice when it's on your table. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: So you get uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table, but it's c it's stands. Marketing: Oh it's a side view. Industrial Designer: Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling, User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table. Um the graphical user interface and the buttons, uh we also thought about that already. Uh I thought about uh the L_C_D_ touch screen, which is uh is easy to clean too. One of the great uh advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some {gap} or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright. Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component. Marketing: True. Industrial Designer: So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons. Uh the batteries, uh we also thought about that already, uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh {vocalsound} the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that. Questions, {gap}? User Interface: No. {vocalsound} Marketing: No no no no no. Just looking. Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting, not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use. And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television. Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements, there should be an advanced chip in it User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase, so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side. Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours. That was correct, wasn't it? Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Okay. I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber. User Interface: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Well, business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image, so yeah, it needs colour, Industrial Designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind, Project Manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: wasn't it? Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan? Project Manager: It must be recognisable. Industrial Designer: Okay okay. Well that's possible of course. User Interface: You can put the R_ and R_. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: We could make a little R_ and R_ {gap} on the top of the machine. Uh so they are {vocalsound} pretty boring, I suggest, because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours, so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting. And uh will buy uh {vocalsound} them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours. Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that, but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic, hard plastic or uh titanium. And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control, because it yeah it makes sense. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay. Well that's all about my uh my findings. User Interface: Alright. Project Manager: Okay, thank you. User Interface: I will go next. Marketing: Mm mm mm. Next. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Alright so Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface. Uh how it should look. And uh {vocalsound} uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons, but only an L_C_D_ screen, so I had to uh look on that. And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of. Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition. And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you. And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker. And so that it you say uh good morning, uh coffee maker, and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name. Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer. Um perhaps it's useful, Industrial Designer: Mm. Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote, Industrial Designer: Mm. User Interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and {gap} calls or something. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: It's true. User Interface: And perhaps we could uh implement that. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like Industrial Designer: Oh my God. {vocalsound} {vocalsound} User Interface: but I can't draw, so uh don't {vocalsound} make too much of it {vocalsound}. I tried to uh the L_C_D_ screen I tried to sort of to draw {gap}. I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume. I don't know if there is an icon for the program, but Industrial Designer: Not just a P_. User Interface: yeah. Marketing: P_ yeah, just a P_. User Interface: So uh Industrial Designer: . . . {gap} User Interface: and then the buttons above and uh below Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon. Um. Marketing: Where's where's the button for two {gap}? User Interface: I forgot that one. {vocalsound} I thought I forgot something, Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Okay. User Interface: but uh {vocalsound}. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: And uh and uh the numbers, that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth. Industrial Designer: Ah. Marketing: Doesn't matter. User Interface: Um an options button. And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options, I think. It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of uh thing. Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm. Marketing: No. User Interface: So could call it settings or something. Industrial Designer: Yep. User Interface: But this is a bit uh how I thought it. And uh the L_C_D_ uh somewhere on the remote. Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should, so that it's better in your hand or something uh. Industrial Designer: Oh okay, User Interface: But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Uh and then uh if you press the op options button, now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this. Industrial Designer: Oh yeah, {gap}. User Interface: And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings. And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus. So they want to u use one button and then something happens, and not choose with uh this kind of uh {disfmarker} And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. User Interface: That's an option. And that was my uh finding dinge. Project Manager: Thanks. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Now our third Industrial Designer: Go Danny, go Danny. {vocalsound} Project Manager: team member with his presentation. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay, I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching. The trends from the past years, what the people like, what the youngsters like, what the elderly people liked about shapes, colours, material and stuff.'Kay. The method I used was {disfmarker} Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours, shapes, material they wanted uh from elderly and young people. So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself. Findings I made. The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy. The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative, okay, like the L_C_D_ screen that's {vocalsound} quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this. And the third thing is it should be easy to use. I think with only one menu, four button, channel, volume, it should also be enough for easy to use. The personal preferences for the young people, they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow, uh strawberry red and stuff. Industrial Designer: Fruity? {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Grass green. Industrial Designer: Fruity. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah. Like that. The round shapes, and soft material m materials like the rubber. Industrial Designer: Mm. Okay. Marketing: It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things. User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's build it into a sponge. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown, red, deep reds and stuff. They liked square shapes with round edges. And hard materials like wood, um titanium. They those kind of materials they liked. This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours, innovative, all the colours you see, the blue, the red, the white, the yellow, that stuff. And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like Project Manager: Oh y {vocalsound} Marketing: this or something. It's it's a bit like a banana. And the colour should be yellow, or something. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And for the elderly people just plain old. Because we decided to have two kind of remotes, two designs, or was it two colours? User Interface: It was one remote, I think, Marketing: Different colours, yeah. User Interface: different colours. Marketing: We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes. I think like my colleague, you said, is that's e better, or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something, with round squares. Simple but User Interface: {gap} Marketing: easy to use. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: {vocalsound} So that's it. Project Manager: So for the older people, a more traditional uh form. Industrial Designer: Okay. Marketing: That is my {disfmarker} Yeah, like the older o older colours I can maybe {disfmarker} User Interface: You could you could uh change the colours, that was also the idea. I don't know which shape you should should take, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but. Marketing: {vocalsound} Colours th the elderly people {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah, I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the uh remote control? Project Manager: the shape of it. User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle. Round but square. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Yeah, s Project Manager: {gap} Industrial Designer: round corners, but s but square, yeah. Project Manager: But maybe then both groups won't buy it. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh i i if you do it uh uh square, with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i Do you know what I mean? Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you mean, kind of like a {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: {gap} wait, like {vocalsound} like this {vocalsound} uh a bit. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: So it's a bit square, but it's also a bit uh round. Industrial Designer: Kinda like a beer glass. {vocalsound} Yeah. User Interface: So but then {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I know what you mean. User Interface: Same sides. {vocalsound} But that's uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It's also easy to to have {vocalsound} to to put in your hand. User Interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped, so that's uh {disfmarker} But perhaps that's a good thing, Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: so that's easy to use. People know the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Will recognise that's as a remote control. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Look something like that {gap}. Autumn colours like red, brown. Industrial Designer: Uh when I saw your d Oh. Marketing: They liked the wood a lot. Industrial Designer: Huh. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah, kinda like old cars, uh {disfmarker} Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance, medieval kind of things. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Swords. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let's put it all together. Marketing: Those kind of {disfmarker} Yeah, those kind of things. So you see the big difference between the young people? Fresh, exciting. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: And the old people, old and boring. User Interface: But that's easily to do with the colour, I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} Marketing: So {disfmarker} Sorry? User Interface: That's easy to do with the colours, I think. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah we think so too. Industrial Designer: Uh. Marketing: Because otherwise we have to {gap} get different shapes, and colour {gap} way easier than yeah the shapes. In material yeah rubber, rubber is, like I said, young people like more soft materials and spongy ones Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Marketing: and the old people like {vocalsound} plain wood. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber, or soft rubber. Or something something between that. User Interface: Yeah think uh {disfmarker} Also in between. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Soft rubber. Marketing: Yeah {gap} soft rubber Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: which you can you can feel in it. Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you {disfmarker} Um. User Interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it, Marketing: Or {disfmarker} User Interface: but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It should shouldn't be {gap}. Marketing: No. Or or wh what's something harder. No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something. That's the bit you can press it in, User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: or something harder. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber. This uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, something like this, yeah. User Interface: But it's quite hard, this. Marketing: Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: It's feels kind s spongy. User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Spongy. Project Manager: Hmm. Marketing: Something. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think it's rubber. Marketing: No. N n n Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling. {vocalsound} User Interface: Uh did you have something about uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Are you going to invite Sponge Bob, maybe he can {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: So we should first decide about shape, I think. Industrial Designer: Ding ding. User Interface: Which uh {disfmarker} Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I think that's the better thing to do. {vocalsound} User Interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it, Marketing: {gap} User Interface: and can decide uh. Industrial Designer: Um I also s uh can't help but notice {vocalsound} that you uh used an {disfmarker} you had a remote control {gap} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was uh rather small. Um. Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Yeah Marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like {disfmarker} User Interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit Industrial Designer: . . . This was your size, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger. Marketing: Yeah three quarter of the of the {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah, three quarters. So uh so you don't have to put your {disfmarker} {vocalsound} oh. Marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh new, blank. So uh when you get {vocalsound} this uh {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {gap} User Interface: Ooh {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Uh kinda like this. Marketing: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Or should it be larger? Marketing: Larger I think. Industrial Designer: Larger? Because you want to put your hands {disfmarker} User Interface: But if you pu Marketing: Yeah User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen. Industrial Designer: You want Marketing: becau because you have {disfmarker} User Interface: Perhaps that's best. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah okay, true, true, true true. Industrial Designer: Your thumb here. User Interface: {vocalsound} But not on the screen because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: that's uh that's an idea. Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: Looks a bit like a Game Boy now. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself, uh you'll {vocalsound} you'll always get some {disfmarker} User Interface: You always touch it, Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Industrial Designer: Going to be very greasy and stuff. Marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: One to zero, the two digit, {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah you don't want it too small. How yeah how large {disfmarker} Marketing: You have to you have to {disfmarker} Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time. Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah they have thick fingers {gap}. But if you wanna make it in international, Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands Marketing: Yeah true, Industrial Designer: and we got these large {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Marketing: but {disfmarker} Yeah, we have we have the zoom option, right? Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course, yeah. You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. And we won't include a a pen, or something to point, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: hey, we we want to do it with our fingers, Marketing: No. Project Manager: right? Industrial Designer: Your fingers, yeah. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Y you could include a pen Industrial Designer: You don't want uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use {disfmarker} Marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen. Project Manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that Marketing: Yeah {gap} the fingers, yeah. User Interface: Yeah o yeah {gap}, if they think it's handy to use a pen. Project Manager: and {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen. I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this, or something. Project Manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers, huh. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} You can do {gap} whatever uh any uh cloth. Marketing: Yeah but that that can be {gap} with plain soft tissue. Yeah, Project Manager: Okay well Marketing: you can buy those at {disfmarker} Project Manager: maybe, if I can interrupt you, maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision. Industrial Designer: Sure. Project Manager: So we can discuss these points. {gap} those points um energy question mark. How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how {disfmarker} are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put {gap} in it. Uh chip on print and case. Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here, but I hope you have ideas about them. Marketing: {vocalsound} User Interface: I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: The docking station. User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. So that's the the the first point. Marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries Project Manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting. Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah. Yeah. Marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Just like with the telephone. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead Industrial Designer: I kinda like your {disfmarker} Marketing: then you can re you can uh change them. Industrial Designer: Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice? Mouse. Computer mouse. Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah like those. Industrial Designer: Kinda like those kind of batteries. User Interface: {vocalsound} but it should be th I think normal batteries, Marketing: Yep. {vocalsound} User Interface: not not like two or two uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah, normal plain you {disfmarker} No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop. Yeah. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: Simple rechargeable uh batteries. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Um what was with the chip on print? Industrial Designer: The chip on print? Um {disfmarker} Uh you gotta f Yeah. I think so. Chip on print with a with a {vocalsound} simple uh a sim not a simple but a {disfmarker} Marketing: Print plate. Industrial Designer: We also discussed that. Didn't we? {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen? You still have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Uh {gap} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah. You always have a print plate. Industrial Designer: Beg your pardon? Marketing: You always have a print plate, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, of course, yeah. Marketing: right? Always, so {disfmarker} I dunno what w what we have to decide about that. Project Manager: Yeah well it's a good question. User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: {vocalsound} It just was in there Industrial Designer: {gap} Well uh Project Manager: and I didn't have any information about it, Industrial Designer: chip on print, I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got, uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button. Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen, with no uh with not {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the buttons are not always on the same place, Marketing: Yeah, okay. But {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: for example if you enlarge a button, or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen, uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: When you got a regular button, th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah okay, but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: so that that's not of any discussion, I think. Project Manager: Well you need some kind of C_P_U_, I guess. Industrial Designer: {gap} I suppose so. Marketing: Mm, I don't I dunno I don't think that's {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_. Industrial Designer: Yeah because it has to uh b Marketing: Yeah, it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen. I think they don't need that big of C_P_U_. Industrial Designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume. Marketing: Yeah, okay, true true. True. Industrial Designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_ User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. {vocalsound} Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the L_C_D_ screen. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: {gap} Industrial Designer: And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen. Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: And the case, yeah we already discussed the case, User Interface: It's rubber. Industrial Designer: we wanted to make it from rubber User Interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this? Industrial Designer: and uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Or softer rubber or {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh hard rubber I think. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: That's the easy to ha uh to to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: It bounces back from the floor where you {vocalsound} throw it. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Yeah sure, look {vocalsound}. Marketing: We have different colours. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah this in different colours? Industrial Designer: D Marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes? No I don't think, I think it's more round than square. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yeah it's a bit. But I think it should be a bit longer, perhaps. Marketing: So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people. Project Manager: Yeah. But that's what we want, {gap}. User Interface: Yeah. I think so too. Marketing: Yeah, that's our target. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's our main target. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Lower than forty years, I think Industrial Designer: {gap} Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve? Marketing: it was. Industrial Designer: So i Marketing: Oh yeah that that {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I thought that was a quite good User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off, of course. Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: Yeah yeah you have a fancy design, then, right away. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Uh. Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Because it Marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: you don't have to put it {disfmarker} get it in your hand, you can put it next to you Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: and then dive it in User Interface: Yeah, that's a good idea. Marketing: and {gap}. Yeah. Industrial Designer: It's a lot easier. User Interface: Yeah, alright. Industrial Designer: So, so Marketing: So {disfmarker} Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: you got uh {disfmarker} User Interface: And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Did you write that down? Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured {vocalsound} remote control. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: You can't you You can't oh, you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah, you can uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah but I wrote it down. {vocalsound} User Interface: It's pretty easy but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} Marketing: And load it on the the user the server. Project Manager: What about the user interface, there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that {gap}. User Interface: Yeah, Project Manager: You you showed your drawing. User Interface: I had what I just uh I should {gap} again. I miss a few buttons, but. Well. At least uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what we should also have on, I just remembered, um a menu to go back through the first uh {gap} if if you touch options, you can't go back to this uh right away now. Marketing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to go back. Yeah uh uh. User Interface: This {gap} {disfmarker} Marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal? User Interface: I don't know. Marketing: With the minus and the plus. User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker} Marketing: I think it's easier than {disfmarker} User Interface: I don't know. I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way, Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: but I don't know what they think. Industrial Designer: Sorry? {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Project Manager: Mm. User Interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical? Marketing: For sound and channel. User Interface: Th Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen. If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter. If you make it uh in a rectangle {disfmarker} User Interface: Right well if we make it like this, I think if you Marketing: Yeah. Industrial Designer: I so it's it's it's it's {disfmarker} User Interface: put it like this {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Square. {gap} Marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like {disfmarker} Oh a button uh minus here, plus over here. A minus here, plus over here. Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh, okay. Marketing: And on here. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The other buttons and on here {vocalsound} the top. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: The options and then you have something like uh the P_ over here, User Interface: But I think I wou Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: and the sound. User Interface: I think that's a matter of what you're used to. Marketing: Something uh {disfmarker} User Interface: I think I would put a plus and a min uh here. And then the P_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle. Industrial Designer: Uh. {gap} Marketing: Something like {disfmarker} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} Sh Project Manager: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Take your time. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: Plus minus plus uh {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah Marketing: minus. User Interface: but I think when you are holding it, you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus. Marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb. User Interface: Yeah but I think {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know. {vocalsound} Perhaps I have some examples. Industrial Designer: W User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then. {vocalsound} Marketing: Who's the usability engineering? User Interface: That's me. Marketing: She is. {gap} User Interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} User Interface:'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used. Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh. User Interface: The {disfmarker}'Cause they can use that better. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Consistency. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Oh {gap} {disfmarker} I have that those s numbers. User Interface: I {disfmarker} Here is our {disfmarker} here are uh Marketing: Or a good watch. User Interface: I don't really know. Marketing: B Project Manager: Everybody's searching in his data. User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah. Marketing: Channel selection. Per hour one hundred and sixty eight. Volume selection four times an hour User Interface: Yeah but {gap} {disfmarker} But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote. Industrial Designer: Yeah. So not how much {disfmarker} n not how often it's used, but {disfmarker} Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} User Interface: W what's what's usual or normal. Marketing: Yeah, that depends on on on the remote. User Interface: Yes I'm looking here. But here's it's below, Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: here also, and now here's here's next to each other. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: I think it's {gap} it's a {disfmarker} Marketing: I think {gap} because I have two televisions at home. One is horizontal, one is vertical, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah it does it doesn't really matter, Marketing: so it depends. Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. Depends. Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other, because you go higher and down. Marketing: Yeah, lower. User Interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other, because you would go further and back. Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: That's how it's is usually {gap} when I look here Marketing: True. User Interface: that's what I see. Industrial Designer: Okay, um. Let's cut to the chase. {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got to change. Project Manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons User Interface: I don't know. Project Manager: just the Marketing: Yeah is it is user interface. Project Manager: concepts. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: Component. User Interface: This concept is in the actual design, but you should know where you would place a {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Okay, well le Yeah. Interface, yeah. User Interface: And the speech uh shall we implement that? Or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology, huh? Industrial Designer: Technologies, uh. Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that, where are you, but then it says I'm here. Industrial Designer: Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. But then you should also find a place {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Makes it possible to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah. User Interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something. You can talk into the corner. Industrial Designer: Mm. Marketing: Yeah, a microphone, yeah. Industrial Designer: {gap} Not even necessary, Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: because a lotta {disfmarker} you can make a very sensitive microphone, so it makes it possible to uh {vocalsound} just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote. Project Manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh User Interface: Yeah. But {disfmarker} Yeah, that's also {gap}. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: {gap} Project Manager: over there. Industrial Designer: Right. User Interface: So, in the middle or something. Industrial Designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important Project Manager: Yeah, yeah. Industrial Designer: because yeah, it doesn't matter where the microphone is. User Interface: {gap} but you should uh decide where you want to put it. Industrial Designer: Ah okay, sure, okay, User Interface: Right? {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: well tha Marketing: Um I think where it isn't seen Industrial Designer: Underneath? {gap} Indeed. It shouldn't be uh very uh visible. Marketing: the most. User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company. {vocalsound} Marketing: Inside. Project Manager: Yeah. Well Industrial Designer: Yeah sure, why no Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out Marketing: I i between the round of the R_. User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it, Marketing: Yeah. Project Manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote, huh, the the speech control. User Interface: Yeah. So where do you want to put it? Marketing: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah actually it does {vocalsound} because it you can you can find it better if you use it. Marketing: Yeah. Yeah User Interface: It's a way for you to uh {disfmarker} Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Uh. User Interface: So it makes more sense just'cause other remotes don't have that. Industrial Designer: Yeah, okay. Project Manager: But are we talking about the button, or about the microphone? User Interface: About a microphone, Project Manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing, User Interface: there is no button. Project Manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best. Industrial Designer: {gap} Marketing: Where isn't {disfmarker} i it isn't most in sight. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Well put it there. I don't mind. {vocalsound} Marketing: I think. Project Manager: {vocalsound} User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: That doesn't doesn't really matter. Marketing: No. Actually doesn't. Industrial Designer: Okay. So? User Interface: Alright. Any more uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: So well uh Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Interface type. Project Manager: type, supplements, anything. Yeah, well we already s discussed that, huh, the the L_C_D_ Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ yeah, Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to {disfmarker} Marketing: {gap} I think {disfmarker} I thought the, like you said, like scroll {vocalsound} next to the remote isn't that handy. Industrial Designer: yeah. User Interface: Yeah. {gap} Marketing: I think it's better to just {gap} up what you'd like to do on the screen. If you want to go back you have to back button go back, Industrial Designer: {gap} User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu. Industrial Designer: Hey, User Interface: {vocalsound} Um yeah. Yeah Industrial Designer: {gap}. {vocalsound} User Interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh Industrial Designer: Use the scroll. Yeah I think so too. Marketing: Yeah? You do like it? Industrial Designer: So why not, on on side. User Interface: Or at least {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll, but the menu {gap} they like most, and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: Fast, yeah. So if you've got a settings, if you {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster. Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options, Industrial Designer: Yes. {vocalsound} Marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then {disfmarker} User Interface: But you have {disfmarker} it's f uh Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options, User Interface: we have five or four or something. Industrial Designer: because when you use {disfmarker} Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television, you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen. Marketing: Y Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Marketing: Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, true. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down, Marketing: Okay. Industrial Designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or. Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use. Marketing: {gap} Okay, no problem. Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side Industrial Designer: Yeah, yeah. Project Manager: which you can touch User Interface: Yeah. {vocalsound} Project Manager: and {disfmarker} User Interface: It's also different. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Okay. Project Manager: Okay. Well there's our five minutes uh warning. Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components, everyone? Marketing: Um. No, colours are clear, Project Manager: Everybody think they can can Marketing: shape is clear, material is clear. Industrial Designer: Okay, what's the standard colour? Project Manager: work for that? Marketing: And a standard, Project Manager: Is there a standard colour? Marketing: yeah we don't {disfmarker} Industrial Designer: I I Marketing: no we have different colour. Industrial Designer: You got you got different colours, Marketing: How many colours are we going to {disfmarker} User Interface: You should you should have a black one Industrial Designer: but you should have a standard colour. User Interface: because uh I think black is standard. Marketing: Black. Yeah, black I think is is the standard. Industrial Designer: Black? With the with the yellow uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} User Interface: But if you want to be different, then uh {disfmarker} Marketing: Dark grey, something like this this colour or something. Industrial Designer: Just a regular uh remote colour. Marketing: Yeah like like yeah. Industrial Designer: And then have uh different covers uh to use. Marketing: Or or silver. I think it's better to have silver nowadays. User Interface: Silver. Industrial Designer: Silver, yeah. Project Manager: Yeah. Marketing: I think you see more silver than black. Industrial Designer: You see a lot of t uh silver televisions. Project Manager: But still silver and black are {disfmarker} well User Interface: Silver rubber. {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah the the silver black are our main colours. Yeah. Project Manager: silver is new but also traditional, so uh {disfmarker} Marketing: I think we have silver, black and between those {vocalsound} is like I dunno s five colours between them or something. Project Manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing, I mean it Industrial Designer: Yeah y I think it's better to {disfmarker} Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow, we have. Project Manager: could be ugly, but it's definitely fancy. User Interface: {vocalsound} But Marketing: R red. Industrial Designer: Yeah th yeah. That's right. User Interface: yeah. Industrial Designer: But if you use uh silver, uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy. Marketing: Green, wood, brown. Yeah. True. Industrial Designer: When you use titanium, silver is fancy, User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: but when you use silver rubber, it isn't fancy. Silver has to shine, and rubber doesn't shine. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Industrial Designer: Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: You understand? {vocalsound} Marketing: Yeah, I understand. Project Manager: Yeah I would think about colours like uh red, yellow, green, blue, Industrial Designer: Yeah. Marketing: Yeah o of course. Project Manager: just {disfmarker} Marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours, like red and brown, {gap} dark red and brown. Project Manager: Yeah. User Interface: Just all kind of colour. Industrial Designer: Fruity. Fruity loops. Project Manager: Mm-hmm. Maroon. Yeah. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: Okay, so {disfmarker} User Interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one, or uh {disfmarker} Project Manager: Who's pinging? User Interface: Is it {disfmarker} Project Manager: You are pingin Marketing: No {gap}. Project Manager: Okay. {vocalsound} I thought we User Interface: {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: You ping. {vocalsound} Project Manager: Okay, so uh that wraps it up? Everybody knows uh what to do? User Interface: Yeah. Project Manager: Well I wrote it down here. I wrote it down here what to do um. User Interface: Well I don't know what to do, Industrial Designer: Well not what to do. Not what to do. User Interface: but. {vocalsound} Project Manager: The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes. Um here are the individual actions, Industrial Designer: Okay. Project Manager: and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board, User Interface: Ooh. {vocalsound} Right. Marketing: S Project Manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach. User Interface: Yeah. Marketing: tough. We'll be available. User Interface: But do we have to {disfmarker} We'll work together, but do we have to stay here, or do we {disfmarker} Project Manager: Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out. User Interface: Right. Project Manager: I don't know. {vocalsound} User Interface: Yes. Okay. {vocalsound} Industrial Designer: Thin I think we should work {vocalsound}. Project Manager: Okay well that was what I had to say, uh, User Interface: Yeah I think {gap}. Project Manager: final thoughts from anyone, or? User Interface: No. Project Manager: We're finished. Marketing: No. Project Manager: Okay, well thank you very much. User Interface: Yeah. Industrial Designer: Thank you very much. Marketing: Finished. User Interface: So we have to keep talking English now? {vocalsound}

Marketing thought it was easy with a microphone on the remote control so that it was easy to find. User Interface agreed and thought it was better to put the microphone in a corner. Industrial Designer thought no matter where the microphone was, it would not be visible. So where to place didn't matter. Project Manager thought the microphone should be in an important position to see because it was a special selling point of remote control.